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Aboriginal Law Bulletin

Aboriginal Law Bulletin (ALB)
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--- "Interview with Margie Friel" [1996] AboriginalLawB 28; (1996) 3(81) Aboriginal Law Bulletin 14

Interview with Margie Friel

Margie Friel was the Northern Territory Senate Candidate for the Northern Territory Greens in the March 1996 Federal Election. She spoke with Joanne Murphy about her experiences in politics.

Could you tell our readers a little about your background?

I am from the Jawoyn people. I was born in Darwin. My mother was taken away from Katherine when she was young, so she is part of the Stolen Generation. But she has found her family. My father is not Aboriginal--he was born in Victoria but his family is from Scotland.

I ended up leaving school at about 16. I was sorry I left, so decided to go to the South Australian Institute of Technology at Adelaide. I did a couple of years of social work there, and got my diploma when I was 19. Then I went to study at the University of New South Wales in Sydney, where I gained special admission as an Aboriginal student. I then spent a number of years studying and working in New South Wales.

While I was a student I was a bit of a ratbag. I got involved in things like Rock Against Racism, the Committee to Defend Black Rights, the anti-apartheid movement, and some student organisations. After graduating from UNSW with a Bachelor of Jurisprudence, I worked first for Tranby College, and then moved on to the University of Technology where I worked in Jumbunna, the Aboriginal Education Centre, as a tutor/counsellor. Later I went to the Faculty of Humanities and taught Aboriginal studies as the Aboriginal Teaching Fellow. Then I went back to Jumbunna and was Coordinator of Student Services. Throughout those years I started a family.

I left Sydney in 1992, got divorced and came back to Darwin. Now I am a single parent with 3 young sons. In 1994 I became Director at the National Aboriginal Youth Law Centre. So my working background is in law and social work.

Why did you decide to run with the Northern Territory Greens and not one of the other parties?

I have been a member of the Territory Greens for two years. As far as I am concerned, the Coalition has not in the past made any serious commitment to Aboriginal issues. I have also been disgusted with the Labor Party in its approach to Aboriginal affairs. The buck-passing between the States and Territories and the Commonwealth concerning the Royal Commission Into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody is something I have found unacceptable. The lack of real commitment to Aboriginal affairs is something that really disgusts me.

The reason I am in the Greens arises from an incident a couple of years ago where an agreement to extinguish native title over a particular area of Jawoyn land was reached. That was made possible by an agreement between the Northern Territory Government [Country Party], the Federal Government [then Labor Party], the Jawoyn Association and the mining company. I as a member of the Jawoyn Association attended a meeting where it took 7 hours to extinguish native title over a particular area of land, and there were no interpreters used. But publicly it was said that `Discussions had been held with senior elders prior to the meeting'. I can understand why the 20 page legal document was signed in the end, because people had been asking for their land for years. And this all occurred over an area of land which the Northern Territory government a few years before had said the Jawoyn had no interest in; all of a sudden they did have, only to have their rights in it extinguished! It occurred to me that when it suits the Labor Party and the Country Party, they do work quite actively together.

Moreover, I was shocked because I had just come from Sydney in 1992-93, and I was being portrayed as some half-caste woman who should keep her mouth shut. I tried to get the Aboriginal Legal Service, the Northern Land Council, or the Legal Aid Commission to do something, but wasn't able to get anybody to help. Then I began to talk to people from the Environment Centre in Darwin. They were more interested in the possible extinction of Gould Finches in that area because of the proposed goldmine, but I did meet some interesting people there. I maintained that association, and became part of the Territory Greens. Last year they became affiliated with the Australian Greens. Contrary to public opinion, the Australian Greens do focus on more than just the environment. I have contributed to updating their Aboriginal affairs policy.

Why did you run for the Federal and not the Terri-tory elections?

I was very reluctant to run in the recent elections, because I wanted to run for the Territory elections instead. In the end I think that all of us who ran for the Territory Greens only did it after trying to get others to do it. We didn't exactly have thousands of people lining up to volunteer.

What problems are you aware of which other Indigenous people who have run for Parliament have encountered?

I have only ever met 2 others. One is Helen Corbett, who used to be known as Helen Boyle. She is one of the foundation people from the Committee to Defend Black Rights, and campaigned actively for the Royal Commission Into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody. She stood about 10 years ago in Sydney. It was the first time I had seen an Aboriginal candidate, apart from Neville Bonner. It was hard for her, because she was an independent. But she did get lots of support from people. I also got lots of support from people, but it can in no way mirror the sort of support that candidates with the major parties receive.

The other person was the bloke who stood with the Indigenous People's party in the recent Mundingburra by-election in Queensland. He had a great media team; they really worked the media, and he was able to get lots of coverage.

I guess it was more difficult for you, because he was in one small electorate in one by-election, whereas you were running for the Senate and had the whole of the Territory to cover?

It was also somewhat different in that he campaigned specifically on Indigenous people's issues in that local area. I am the Aboriginal affairs spokesperson for the Territory Greens, but there were other issues I had to cover such as land clearing, mangrove destruction, euthanasia.

I don't personally know any other Indigenous candidates, but in this recent election there were so many people standing that it really is a sign for the future. In Western Australia there was one woman standing for the WA Greens, as well as that guy who stood for the Liberal party; you had women standing for the Australian Women's party, and throughout Queensland there were Australian Indigenous People's Party representatives. Also in the Territory's Legislative Assembly we do have Aboriginal representatives, but they are mostly men.

Given the numbers of Indigenous people who did run around the country, did you think you had much chance of getting elected?

Yes I did. One guy said to me it doesn't matter if you don't make it, you can do deals on preferences, but for me it was a case of I wouldn't stand unless I thought there was a possibility of being elected, no matter how remote. I always think that anything is possible anyway; if you don't give it a go you'll never know. You could say your chances are remote, but who else is there to vote for in the Territory between the Labor Party and the Country Party?

On a related topic, last year our Centre organised Aboriginal youth participation in the Youth Parliament. We tried to promote the idea of Aboriginal people understanding and participating in legislative development.

What is the Youth Parliament?

It's a YMCA initiative. Every State has a Youth Parliament. Each year every State government gives over the Parliament building, and these young people, who mostly come from schools, develop their own draft Bills, then go into Parliament and debate them, and pass them or don't pass them. They learn about Parliamentary procedure.

We had some young people from high school and some young people from the Top End who had left school but were in training programs attend. Our team members were 14 to 22 years of age. They were apparently the first ever all-Aboriginal team in the Youth Parliament. One of them became the Chief Minister of Parliament.

Do you think that non-Indigenous Australians really worry or care about the lack of Indigenous representation in Parliaments?

No, I don't. I am sure there are some people who do, but they are probably the minority.

Given the popularity of Bob Katter, Pauline Hanson and the like in the recent campaign, at least in their electorates, do you think non-Indigenous Australians have any real idea about the daily issues and problems facing Indigenous Australians?

No, I really don't think that they care either. Racism is so institutionalised, and ignorance is so inbred.

Do you think education and more information will make any difference then?

It shouldn't just be free information if you want it. The curriculum that has developed in the education system is what is keeping this thing going. The attitude `Aboriginal people never did anything to the land before we came here'; this is what normal people are saying in the street; that is, terra nullius. It is not even at a level of legal theory. About a year after the Mabo case, suddenly it was `Horror horror! our front yards are going to be invaded!'.

I think in some instances native title is good for some people, but it is also like the second coming of Cook. The Native Title Act [1993 (Cth)] was passed really to create certainty for non-Aboriginal people, rather than for Aboriginal people to get access and title to land. But for some people it is definitely worthwhile.

In the event of Australia becoming a Republic, what are the most important things that you see occurring for Indigenous people? What kind of Republic would you like to see in Australia? Or do you think there are more important things to be talking about politically, and the Republic is really a minor issue?

I've not thought about a Republic! What I have thought about and have been lobbying for is a statement by the Australian government that acknowledges children's rights, stemming from the Convention on the Rights of the Child. The debate that has yet to be resolved is whether we are talking about an Australian children's Charter of Rights, or as SNAICC [Secretariat National Aboriginal and Islander Child Care] advocates, national legislation for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children. SNAICC has been involved with us in discussing a Charter of Rights for children and young people, and I think in the end we decided that such a charter would not be inconsistent with national legislation for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children. However, it doesn't look as though any government is going to do either thing in a hurry.

What advice would you give to Indigenous people thinking about running for Parliament?

I would really like to see some other people get up and do it. I think people will do things they see other people that they know doing; they think `Well, it's not impossible, they're doing it'. So I would say go ahead.

If you were elected to Parliament, would you try to present a specific Indigenous spin on issues while they were being debated?

Some people think of Indigenous issues as only certain issues. The reality is that all legislation affects Aboriginal people, no matter what level of government is involved. The way that legislation might affect Indigenous people isn't always looked at closely or even included at all.

Do you think getting involved in the formal political process advances Indigenous people's self-determination, or that it can divert energies away from issues which may be more pressing?

I think it is important to be active on all fronts. But I recognise the limitations of Parliaments as well. For example, as a Greens member you would have to recognise that you are in a minority and that it could be really utterly frustrating to not get anywhere.

As a member of Parliament you have access to information, so you can actually educate people about processes and institutions. If you are in government, you are able to say `This is how it works'. You may be able to get the system to work better for you. So it is worthwhile.

What about involvement in ATSIC Regional Councils? Do you have fears that people get too caught up in the bureaucratic process?

ATSIC gets booted a hell of a lot for various reasons!--but part of the problem with ATSIC is that people think it is the solver of all problems. But ATSIC is a supplementary funding organisation; it is really only supposed to be chucking money in when no-one else is. And this is the first problem; no-one is really addressing the problems like Aboriginal housing properly. It is just criminal that government is not prepared to sink the money in that is needed. So one problem like housing can create other problems for Aboriginal people like health. And ATSIC is expected to fix all of that up.

The other thing is that ATSIC really doesn't have a charter to cover every single area that Aboriginal people are involved in. Also, funding is not determined by them but by government. They get the lovely job in the end of carving up this bundle of money; not a lot of money, but money which just cannot meet demands, basically.

Having said that, I still think that it is a good thing to have ATSIC, because you do get greater Aboriginal participation in the political process, and if people don't like what their Local or Regional Council is doing, they can always kick them out at the next election. Your Council has to work for you, be in touch with you. At least I think up here they've made the effort of having community meetings so that they are accessible and answerable. There are all sorts of dissatisfactions but there is also a level of satisfaction.

Do you have plans for running for any level of government or for ATSIC in the future?

I'm starting my bank account now for the next one! Actually I would like to stand for ATSIC, but I'm still considering.

Do you think any of the difficulties you encountered running for Parliament were exacerbated by being an Aboriginal woman?

In some parts of the Territory there is a reluctance to have an Aboriginal woman as a spokesperson. It has been said to me in a community in the Territory `We are not going to vote for women'. There is also this thing of being a so-called `half-caste'. I don't consider myself that way, but it is an image that does exist in the Territory.

Would you like to comment on the imminent establishment of an Aboriginal Women's Legal Service in New South Wales?

I've had the experience of trying to get an Aboriginal Legal Service to act for me in a situation of domestic violence, and they wouldn't even put my name on a piece of paper.

One concern raised around the country that I have heard is that people might want to establish Aboriginal Women's Legal Services, but instead funding dictates mean that what gets established instead are general Women's Legal Services.

I'm on the Management Committee of the Top End Women's Legal Service, which is just starting up. We have been discussing establishing women's legal services in Darwin, Alice Springs and Katherine. There are 10 women on the Management Committee, and they are predominantly Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander. We've written our constitution specifically to say that 5 positions must be held by Indigenous women.

We advertised in Darwin for all women who were interested--Aboriginal, non-Aboriginal, whatever--to come to a public meeting to discuss the establishment of a women's legal service. The Management Committee group arose from this meeting. There are 5 Aboriginal women on the Management Committee, 2 of non-English speaking background, and 3 other women. We also have a subcommittee composed of Aboriginal women to provide clear direction on Aboriginal issues and how the service should be run. So the Service is really predominantly focused on Aboriginal issues.

What about criticisms that you should not split the Aboriginal community by having separate men's and women's legal services?

The reality is that there will be only the men's service and no women's service in the current circumstances, because women won't be able to access an ALS just because their husbands have been there as clients before. Though of course there are going to be circumstances where women will go to an ALS and get service because there aren't any existing conflicts of interest, which have been the main problem.

Women's legal services have the opportunity to provide a specialised service focusing on women's legal issues, and there will be circumstances where in different communities, women will prefer a legal service that is a women's-only service, to provide assistance relating to women's business and stuff. So there are different reasons why it is important to have Aboriginal Women's Legal Services.

If the Northern Territory becomes a State, do you have any fears about what could happen to Aboriginal rights?

The idea of the Territory becoming a State was always ranted and raved about while the Labor Party was the Federal power. It is probably being discussed now. Territory politicians are certainly interested in having control over Kakadu and places like that. It's a great concern to Aboriginal people in the Territory that you have people like Nick Dondas [MHR] talking about taking a sledgehammer to the gates at Kakadu. I'm actually quite surprised at the sort of comments that they have been making, particularly if they are considering making deals about uranium mining. The last thing you want to do is upset the Aboriginal people you want to make a deal with, but these politicians obviously think they can just walk over anybody.

The Territory does have special needs that aren't being met right now, and they include things like Aboriginal housing.

Do you think the Territory as a State would be better placed to provide those needs, or will it just ignore them?

It's really a case of not enough money sunk into fixing problems. It is really horrific. In ATSIC's publication for the incoming government [ATSIC--the Future: An Indigenous Affairs Agenda for an incoming Commonwealth Government], they said if funding continues at the current levels, the housing needs of people today will not be fixed for another 20 years. But there are issues of a real lack of commitment by any government to Aboriginal people anyway.


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