Rossetto, Lee; Williams, Daryl --- "Interview with Daryl Williams, Attorney-General of Australia, November 1999" [2000] MurdochUeJlLaw 12; (2000) 7(1) Murdoch University Electronic Journal of Law

Interview with Australian Attorney General Daryl Williams QC

Authors:	Lee Rossetto LLB
	Hon Daryl Williams AM QC MP Attorney-General of Australia
Issue:	Volume 7, Number 1 (March 2000)

Contents

• At what age did you decide you wanted to study law and why
• Did you have judicial / political aspirations as a student?
• Who was your role model as a student or young lawyer?
• What aspect of the study or practice of law did you enjoy the most?
• What are your long term career aspirations
• What would like to achieve in your current position?
• Who do you admire in your profession ?
• Given that many graduates no longer automatically do their articles,
• what advice would you give them about their career paths
• What are some of your most memorable (embarrassing) moments in Court?
• How did you feel for the first time you stood up in Court?
• What stands out as the proudest moment of your career so far?
• Have you ever been unsure about what lies ahead
• What today is the most fulfilling aspect of your job?
• What characteristics you believe have got you where you are today
• Is the Law moving with the times and is it inaccessible to most
• If you could reform one aspect of the legal system what would it be?
• What is your view on Australia becoming a Republic?
• If you could invite 5 people for dinner, who would they be and why?

At what age did you decide you wanted to study law and why

1. I did not know what I wanted to do when I left school except that I knew I wanted to go to university. I thought I would wait for my Leaving Certificate marks to find out what I could do best. Because I got a distinction in each subject, I did not know whether to do science or arts. At the back of my mind, I had an interest in government and politics. It was not an over-riding consideration, but it was relevant. I thought the three subjects that I would least not want to do were law, medicine and mathematics. In the end, I stared at the University Handbook for quite some time and decided in January, after I got my leaving results, that I would enrol in Law. However, I had not had a long-standing aspiration to be a lawyer.

   Did you have judicial / political aspirations as a student?

2. I always had an underlying interest in government. I wanted to become involved in government which meant getting involved in politics. I believed that law would provide me with a useful background to this end. I became more interested in law, not during my first degree, but when I went to Oxford.

3. I did not find the system of teaching at UWA then either effective or interesting. You were basically lectured at, then you had to go away and read millions of cases and write up notes. There was almost no contact with the lecturers outside the lectures, except for the odd tutorial. I did not really get to the point of finding it academically interesting at UWA. At Oxford, we were much less ambitious in the coverage and much more focused and there I did become interested in a number of aspects of law.

   Who was your role model as a student or young lawyer?

4. I don't think so. I looked up to a lot of people for different things. I didn't really have a role model in law or government.

   What aspect of the study or practice of law did you enjoy the most?

5. I like the sense of having achieved something positive. Proving that someone is telling fibs in court, while it might be intrinsic to the presentation of the case, is not a lasting achievement.

6. Writing a good opinion or putting an argument that is accepted by the Court, constructing documentation that changes things - these aspects are much more satisfying to me than simply the 'hurly burly' of practicing the law.

7. Practice has changed significantly since I first started. When I first started, for example, will cases were quite common. Now they are as rare as hen's teeth. Administrative law was only just developing and now it is a dominant part of practice for many people.

   What are your long term career aspirations

8. I have reached the point where long term aspirations are not quite so relevant. As a young person I certainly had long term goals to get into politics and hopefully become a Minister in a Government. I suspect that I have succeeded in that respect.

   What would like to achieve in your current position?

9. One thing that I am particularly proud of is reform of treaties procedures. This is something I worked on in Opposition and was quickly able to achieve in Government when we were elected in March 1996. The reforms were in place effectively by the middle of that year and have worked well. We have a Treaties Council, which is the Heads of Government. We have a Standing Committee of the Parliament on Treaties. There is now a practice of tabling treaties for 15 sitting days prior to ratification (except in exceptional circumstances) and a requirement for the production of a national interest analysis on the tabling of every treaty. These are all positive reforms that allow some parliamentary scrutiny of what the Executive does, which the previous government did not allow.

10. The most challenging area for me is to try to remove some of the acrimony in family law proceedings. This is an almost impossible task. There are many individual challenges as the Attorney-General portfolio is so diverse. We are currently doing a lot of reform work in copyright, bringing it up to date for the digital age, we are setting in place legislation for electronic commerce and setting in place legislation for protection of privacy in the private sector. Each of these is a goal in itself.

    Who do you admire in your profession ?

11. There are two people whom I have looked up to as a young practitioner. One is now deceased and the other is now retired. The retired person is the former Chief Justice, Sir Francis Burt. I thought he had a capacity to present arguments in court brilliantly.

12. The other person for whom I worked as an articled clerk and then as a partner was Frank Downing QC, who died a year or two ago. He was the most pragmatic of lawyers. His pleadings and his documents were always very short, but they did the job. He was a no-nonsense, straight to the point commercial lawyer and he achieved a lot without seeking a high profile. He was a very effective contributor to the community in his day and I learned a lot from him.

    Given that many graduates no longer automatically do their articles, what advice would you give them about their career paths

13. My advice, if anyone wanted it, would be to qualify as a professional, having at least a year or two of practice behind you. It can never be wasted. By completing the practical training, you will acquire skills that you do not acquire through academic work. Then you have always got something to fall back on and at the same time, it gives you the opportunity to branch out in other directions.

    What are some of your most memorable (embarrassing) moments in Court?

14. For my very first case in court I was given a brief by one of the partners. He had not been told by the clients that they had actually signed a written contract and so I was also unaware. That case went down in flames quite quickly.

15. I made a real hash of examining a witness in my first case in the Supreme Court and the Judge, a cranky judge who was known to be cranky, was more cranky than anybody had ever seen him. He was a judge in the 50's and 60's.

16. In more recent times, I went to work not expecting to go to Court, wearing a very light coloured summer suit. I was rung up unexpectedly and told there was a case listed that I was meant to be in before the Master. In those days, company matters before the Master were dealt with in Chambers, not in Court. I grabbed the papers, rushed down where the Court was sitting, waiting for me to appear. There was Mr T E F Hughes QC, Mr Stephen Archer and the Master all robed, and there was me in my summer suit. The Master indicated that despite my attire, he could hear me. Some wretch told Inside Cover about that one.

    How did you feel for the first time you stood up in Court?

17. I was nervous, very nervous. I was well aware that I didn't have a good, practical grasp of the rules of evidence and the rules relating to examining witnesses. I think being nervous before a case starts is not a bad thing and for most lawyers if it is a big case, it is not unusual to be nervous, even after many years of practice.

18. As time goes by you learn a bit more about what is required and then not knowing whether you know enough or don't know enough diminishes as a cause of nervousness.

    What stands out as the proudest moment of your career so far?

19. I don't know that I could single out one. There is a whole series of things that I look back on with some pride.

    Have you ever been unsure about what lies ahead

20. I have always tried to have a plan but often it doesn't work out. What I have sought to do is not to eliminate options along the way. A couple of different times I have been at a crossroads and had to make decisions that were really quite difficult. One was when I was invited to join the staff of the Asian Development Bank after three years in practice. That would have meant leaving my firm and going overseas. I had to think long and hard about that, and obviously consult my wife.

21. When the retiring member for Tangney rang me in 1991 and asked whether I was interested, it was again a very difficult decision to make. Again it involved my wife and family. It was not so much what lies ahead as which fork in the road to take.

    What today is the most fulfilling aspect of your job?

22. It is very hard to answer that. Being a Minister in a Federal Government, particularly with such a diverse portfolio, is very time consuming. There are always a million and one things happening and a million things to be done. You can't really assess at the time whether what you are doing is fulfilling or not. It is often just a matter of stepping onto a conveyor belt for one thing and then stepping onto another conveyor belt for another thing. Bits and pieces get done slowly and it feels at times as if the whole doesn't really come together.

23. The reform of the treaty making process, as I mentioned earlier, is perhaps an exception. That could be done fairly quickly. I am obviously pleased that we were able to do it, but I wouldn't say that I am likely to look back and say that it was the most fulfilling part of what I have done in my current job.

24. In politics I suppose for some people, helping people is the most fulfilling aspect of their job. The way I would look at it is helping people through the reform of the legal system.

    What characteristics you believe have got you where you are today

25. I suppose persistence is one of them. Just set a goal and work towards it without chopping out too many options along the way. I think it is important to set medium and long term goals as well as short term ones. You give a sense of direction to what you are doing and it makes some judgments easier to make.

26. My father always said, and still does, "If a job is worth doing, it is worth doing well". I think the rest of it is just your personality.

    Is the Law moving with the times and is it inaccessible to most

27. Different parts of the legal profession require different answers. In general terms, I think the legal profession is behind the game. In many respects it has to be dragged along rather than pushing itself along. The problem is that lawyers become used to doing particular sorts of work in a particular way. It is very easy for the legal profession, including the Courts, to mould the way work is done for the convenience of the lawyers rather than their clients or the public. I don't think the profession is very good at seeing that aspect of itself at all. I can see from a Government perspective that that is the case. I think there has certainly been some improvement in recent years, but I think that there is a long way to go.

    If you could reform one aspect of the legal system what would it be?

28. In my area of responsibility, family law is the most difficult. A lot has been achieved through the considerable reforms, particularly since 1975. We are still not getting it right though. I think the objective of keeping people out of court, particularly in family matters, rather than have them resolve their differences by the imposition of the judgment of a third party, is a worthwhile objective but difficult to attain.

    What is your view on Australia becoming a Republic?

29. I believe Australia should have an Australian Head of State. However, the republic was not approved by a majority of Australians on 6 November and I accept the decision.

    If you could invite 5 people for dinner, who would they be and why?

30. I think the most relaxing dinner would be with family and close friends.