C2001/1762, Transcript of Proceedings [2001] AIRCTrans 1034 (31 May 2001)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N 7355

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER BLAIR

C2001/1762

HEALTH SERVICES UNION
OF AUSTRALIA

and

ST VINCENTS PRIVATE
HOSPITAL

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of a dispute re alleged redundancies, reduction of
hours, reduction of classifications and rates of pay

MELBOURNE

10.20 am, FRIDAY 11 MAY 2001

Continued from 18.4.01

PN103

THE COMMISSIONER: Good morning. Apologies for the delay. Appearances please.

PN104

MR S. HUDSON: I appear for the HSUA.

PN105

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Hudson.

PN106

MS J. FRAUMANO: I seek leave to appear for St Vincents and Mercy Private Hospital.

PN107

THE COMMISSIONER: Leave was granted last time, was it not, Mr Fraumano?

PN108

MS FRAUMANO: It was indeed.

PN109

THE COMMISSIONER: So it is a continuation. Thank you. Mr Hudson, would you like to lead off or is there an agreement as to who should lead off?

PN110

MR HUDSON: Yes, sir. Thank you. Commissioner, since our last hearing before you, the parties have convened three meetings at the AIRC conference room where we have attempted to work through a document hopefully formulating an organisational change agreement. At this stage, sir, I would have to say that we are still apart somewhat. Before I get into our concerns, sir, I must state that I have only just got back from Latrobe Valley around 40 minutes ago and I have not had time to respond to Ms Fraumano's document that was faxed through to our office yesterday afternoon.

PN111

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

PN112

MR HUDSON: But I have had a quick read and I can highlight some of the outstanding concerns, sir. Where we are apart, sir, is clearly on an issue of salary maintenance where employees may suffer a reduction of hours. The hospital is currently only offering three months. The HSUA is seeking lifetime salary maintenance there. The HSUA also has concerns about the length of the agreement. The HSUA would like a three year agreement; the hospital is seeking the agreement only run until 30 June. The composition of the proposed committee is a concern to the HSUA as well. Also of concern are the proposed housekeeper role within the hospital, also the lack of any wording in the document relating to training for our workplace representatives.

PN113

Also, sir, other issues that have just come to my attention this morning, sir, is apparent lack of backfilling of positions that were made redundant as of last Friday. Obviously there is issues relating to the lack of commitment relating to the HSUA's claim for a bargaining fee in this process. The HSUA as well, sir, have written to the Board again seeking a further meeting which the CEO of the hospital is still denying us access to and apparently this morning as well, sir, there was concern raised about the attendance of our shop stewards to this particular hearing this morning so unfortunately, sir, we are quite a way apart at the moment, it seems, on some of these fundamental issues. The reps have also made it clear this morning that the members are becoming most concerned about the process and are seeking an urgent meeting with HSUA officials to discuss their response at this point in time.

PN114

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Ms Fraumano.

PN115

MS FRAUMANO: Thank you, Commissioner. I will table a copy of the correspondence I sent to HSUA yesterday. We have indeed met on three occasions since the Commission hearing and I would like to thank the Commission for their assistance with facilitating those meetings. The meetings were short in duration. The HSUA allowed approximately 30 minutes. They were not in a position to stay. They did not wish to discuss any matters except for the organisational change agreement that they tabled. It has been put to the HSUA in these meetings the hospital's position on salary maintenance for duration of employment. Unfortunately, the reality is that the hospital needs to reduce costs and if it agreed to salary maintenance it wouldn't achieve the outcome that is required. The HSUA - - -

PN116

THE COMMISSIONER: Salary maintenance, as you are aware, is a common outcome. It is quite often the degree or length of the salary maintenance period. The claim for salary maintenance for lifetime isn't practicable and is not workable but secondly a salary maintenance period for three months is totally impractical. The hospital needs to put their mind to a longer period than three months. A period which is becoming reasonable standard is a period of 12 months, not three.

PN117

MS FRAUMANO: The - will I proceed, Commissioner? The hospital is in a position where it does need to make savings. It has applied three months salary maintenance in organisation change earlier this year that was with the HSUA and that was agreed to. The parameters around the salary maintenance redundancy package etcetera are exactly the same as the changes that occurred in January of this year.

PN118

The HSUA seeks a three year agreement. At our last meeting Mr Hudson wasn't in a position to tell us what the HSUA was seeking in terms of an agreement. He needed to refer to officials. The hospital would not be in a position to offer this enhanced redundancy package on a three year agreement as the hospital needs to make its savings and changes before the financial year.

PN119

The composition of the proposed committee, we haven't had any feedback as to what are the HSUA's concern in that respect. I understand Mr Hudson said that members are becoming concerned regarding the process. We have not had any issues raised in our meetings at all with HSUA. At the most recent meeting, I asked the HSUA whether they wished further information. I attempted to talk to timeframes with them and other issues and they weren't interested in talking about those issues.

PN120

Unfortunately, the hospital has provided whatever resources is required in terms of the time of the manager and Mrs Hibbins' time, however we do not seem to be proceeding; rather it seems to be a delaying exercise. If the hospital is unable to make its changes and there is considerable change going on throughout the whole hospital, not only in this department, it will need to reflect on its position in terms of its viability.

PN121

During the meetings, it would appear that Mr Hudson attended the last one, Pauline Fagan attended one and the assistant secretary attended one. There appeared to be lack of direction from HSUA as to what was acceptable or what wasn't acceptable. In fact many questions I asked, the answer was simply I will need to talk to the committee or refer it to somebody somewhere else and we didn't actually get any responses, if the Commission pleases.

PN122

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. All right, Ms Fraumano, what is the name of the CEO?

PN123

MS FRAUMANO: Dr Peter Leslie.

PN124

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN125

MR HUDSON: Commissioner, may I respond on record to a couple of those points?

PN126

THE COMMISSIONER: Sure.

PN127

MR HUDSON: Sir, I find the claim outrageous that the HSUA limited those meetings to 30 minutes and that the issue was regarding the organisational change agreement only. We were open to discussion on a number of issues. Yes, the HSUA does concede there were a few points that required referring back to the committee of management but it certainly didn't impede the process, sir. I mean, the HSUA is not going to continue to be the whipping boy for nurses increases, sir.

PN128

THE COMMISSIONER: All right, the order that was issued on 20 April in terms of no further action to be taken by St Vincents Hospital or Mercy Hospital in regards to the proposal outlined in the submissions and the correspondence presented to the Commission shall remain in place. The Commission shall call a compulsory conference at 2 pm on Tuesday, 15 May. Those attending shall be Mr Sean Hudson from the HSUA, Ms Pauline Fegan from the HSUA, Ms Jenny Fraumano representing St Vincents Hospital and the CEO, Dr Peter Leslie shall also be in attendance. HSUA shall bring two delegates with them, two, and those two delegates will be nominated by the HSUA. The conference shall deal with the issues that gave rise to the proceedings before the Commission and hopefully at the end of that compulsory conference, there will be an agreement concerning outcomes. Is the Commission clear to the parties, Mr Hudson?

PN129

MR HUDSON: Yes, sir.

PN130

MS FRAUMANO: Thank you, Commissioner.

PN131

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Ms Fraumano. The Commission will stand adjourned to the compulsory conference at 2 pm on Tuesday, 15 May.

ADJOURNED UNTIL TUESDAY, 15 MAY 2001 [10.32am]