C2001/1853, Transcript of Proceedings [2001] AIRCTrans 1347 (3 July 2001)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER FOGGO

C2001/1853

HOLDEN LIMITED

and

AUTOMOTIVE, FOOD, METALS, ENGINEERING,
PRINTING AND KINDRED INDUSTRIES UNION -
SOUTH AUSTRALIAN BRANCH AND OTHERS

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
re notification of an industrial dispute

ADELAIDE

10.08 AM, FRIDAY, 8 JUNE 2001

Continued from 17.5.01

PN210

THE COMMISSIONER: Could I have appearances before me, please?

PN211

MR J. WATSON: I appear for the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union and with me delegate from the job, ROCKY LABBOZETTA.

PN212

MR B. JOHNSON: I appear for the CEPU, electrical division, with me is the senior shop steward, MR REG WALKER.

PN213

MR J. KANE: I appear for the Australian Workers Union and with me today is MR WARREN SCUTTER.

PN214

MS W. GRAY: I appear for Holden and with me is MR GEOFFREY COOK and ALKE ROELINK, both from Holden.

PN215

THE COMMISSIONER: After seeing the news last night, I think congratulations are warranted. I'm never speaking to any of you again because I didn't get an invitation, but apart from that, congratulations of your six millionth car, it looked excellent. Now, who is going to report back?

PN216

MR KANE: Commissioner, before that if I may, I need to leave at 11 am. I have got a mass meeting with workers at 12. So I need to excuse myself at that time. The proceedings continue after that.

PN217

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, that is fine, Mr Kane. Okay. Ms Gray?

PN218

MS GRAY: Yes, Commissioner - - -

PN219

THE COMMISSIONER: Are we informal report back?

PN220

MS GRAY: Yes, we have had informal report backs previously but we've also had transcript.

PN221

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well, I think for these purposes we will put a formal report back and then move into conference.

PN222

MS GRAY: Commissioner, we've agreed that we will consult with our employees on every contractors on site were successful 99 per cent of the time. At the moment I'm talking about the agreement we've got with the union on status quo. It is a very complex task and weekly we produce lists from the managers across the site to advise and consult on contractors on-site. We are committed to continue to do this and address every situation where people believe this has not been done. This week we've had bans and limitations placed on us due to a situation beyond our control. The issue was a turn-kit project which had been previously consulted.

PN223

It did not result in the loss of overtime for our employees and should not have been in issue to result in conflict or bans. The company has subsequently cancelled planned work to attempt to diffuse the situation but finds this action and resolution unreasonable and unacceptable and I suppose before we go into report back, what we are asking is that those bans and limitations be lifted. I have asked outside of the hearing whether there have been lifted and they still are on us. I have got a draft copy of the resolution placed on us, if you would like a copy. I suppose that is the premise on which I start is that we require those bans to be lifted before perhaps we go into it and report back.

PN224

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. So you want to deal with the issue of the bans first of all?

PN225

MS GRAY: Yes, please, Commissioner.

PN226

MR JOHNSON: I can respond, Commissioner.

PN227

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Johnson.

PN228

MR JOHNSON: Thank you, Commissioner. Commissioner, the bans have been put on. Perhaps it could be because of a lot of frustration on the job with respect to the company breaching a commitment that we both gave to Munro J and that is that the status quo would remain. Perhaps if I give you history of the reason why this ban has been put on. Each Wednesday in the various plants, there is a meeting of the company and union delegates to discuss the use of contractors for the forthcoming week-end and we are referring to the 2 and 3 June which was last week-end. On the Wednesday, a meeting had occurred between the parties and it was indicated to our steward from this particular plant that there would be no use of contractors for the week-end.

PN229

So it was taken that there would be no contractors coming on to site. There were certainly some Holden employees to work that week-end and this is part of the contractor's agreement and this is the process that we go through. So we try and resolve any issues prior to. So the delegate walked away from that meeting on the understanding that there would be no contractors utilise for the week-end. He then returned to work the next day - sorry, the week after to find out that there was two contractors brought on site on the Saturday and one of those contractors actually continued on the Sunday and this work was specifically documented as maintenance work.

PN230

So that would be done by Holden's employees. Obviously the frustration then become greater and greater and because of the actions of the company. I must say, Commissioner, this has been ongoing since we've had our two previous hearings with Munro J that there has been a number of breaches but I've got to say to the credit of our members and Holden's employees and the other unions members, they haven't taken any action. They haven't put any bans or limitations on but I guess this was the last straw, should I say.

PN231

The reason why it was put on was because one, as I said, on the Wednesday there was a clear understanding that there would be no contractors utilised for that week-end, very clearly. Then on the Friday night evidently one of the company management team had decided to bring in contractors. Now, our delegate on the Monday had indicated to the company, well, you know, the company has got his home phone number. They could have rung him, could have had some discussion about it, nothing was done. So they brought these contractors in and as I say, they worked on the Saturday and one of the contractors worked on the Sunday.

PN232

Obviously this inflamed the situation with our members. So as a consequence, members wanted to have a stop work meeting and basically walk. Now, to the delegates credit, they didn't do that. He got them to sort of calm down a bit, went and talked to the company, then it was decided that they wanted to have a stop work meeting. Now, stop work meetings are held outside. This stop work meeting was held and then the resolution before you was put to those members. It was agreed to by those members, shall I say.

PN233

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I will mark the resolution.

EXHIBIT #H1 RESOLUTION

PN234

MR JOHNSON: Can I say, Commissioner, that this is the second time in as many months that the individual from the management team had actually gone outside of the status quo that had been agreed before Munro J. As I said, the frustration has been just growing and growing and the anxiety to take industrial disputation has been there but we haven't done that and this has been the last straw. Now, that is the reason that the bans and limitations are on. We are working through the contractor's agreements. The unions have put some proposals, some rewording to the company.

PN235

So, you know, we are still going through the process as per Munro J directions and I've got reiterate that - it was a clear understanding and a commitment by all parties that the status quo would remain. Now, when you have an agreed position at a meeting on a Wednesday that there is no contractors to come on-site and then people walk in on Saturday and there is contractors on site, well, you know we can't expect much more. That is a clear breach and I'm sure that Mr Watson and Mr Kane can give you other examples of breaches of the contractor's agreement.

PN236

So this has been brought about because the company have not gone out and given the message to their management team that if there's going to be use of contractors, we follow the current contractor's agreement and there will not be any problems. So that is basically the history of this current bans and limitations and the reason why it has been put on.

PN237

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Mr Kane?

PN238

MR KANE: Yes, Commissioner, just the frustration around this whole issue, the company says that it has been going on for some 2 years in relation to contractors coming on site at Elizabeth. I've only been involved in five or six meetings this year, I haven't been involved before that. The original contractor's agreement worked quite well where various departments notified the shop stewards of contractors coming on site. That has been working since 1991, '92 and now all of a sudden, the company wants to move the goal posts. They wanted to find what is contract work and what is work that our members normally would do and that is really the crux of the argument.

PN239

THE COMMISSIONER: Are you saying that there is a change from your point of view?

PN240

MR KANE: Major change and we put that to Munro J that this is really a dispute that goes to the current enterprise negotiations. If they want a major change, we are saying that it is an extra claim, it should be negotiated in the agreement. If they want a new contractors agreement, let the company do that, they have got - they will have ample opportunity over the next 2 months to do that. Commissioner, in relation to the status quo that was agreed in front of Munro J, I've only got one copy of this but in relation to dates on 1st of the 4th, there was a breach. On the 13th of the 4th, there was a breach.

PN241

On the 21st of the 4th, the 23rd of the 4th, on Anzac Day on 25th of the 4th, there were contractors everywhere and none of the shop stewards or the shop stewards committee, contractor's committee knew anything about it. On the 11th of the 5th and on the 23rd of the 5th, now this is the frustration that leads the members to take industrial action and put bans on in relation to contractors when the status quo was clearly broken by the company, in every occasion. There's people in this company, not presently here today but other people, who just blatantly disregard the status quo and the contractor's agreement every week-end, blatantly, they just don't give a damn to be honest with you, Commissioner.

PN242

The frustrations of the senior shop stewards here is really at this time getting way, way out of hand. So while we work through the whole issue of a new contractor's agreement and the directions that Munro J gave us in relation to, at the last meeting of the 17th, to put some points in regard to points of agreement and points of non-agreement in relation to Holdens too. Commissioner, just as a matter of - - -

PN243

THE COMMISSIONER: You are referring to the direction and recommendation issued on the 9 April?

PN244

MR KANE: Yes, Commissioner.

PN245

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN246

MR KANE: Actually, Commissioner, just as a matter of sorting out the documents, Holden's (1) was the resolution - was a resolution - I haven't got a date. The contractor's agreement, an overtime register and a resolution of January and Holden's (2) was the draft document that Holdens put together.

PN247

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. Well, I need to amend the resolution of 6th of the 6th to Holden (3).

PN248

MR KANE: Commissioner, I don't know how we fix this in the very short term if the company seeks to have a major change to the - what has happened in the past and the only way that we see is to do it through enterprise bargaining. We are currently meeting, there's been two lots of meetings. We meet again on Tuesday and if this whole issue could be put on the table for enterprise bargaining as a trade group, if that suits the company, and we will work through the issues. At the end of that hopefully we will have an agreement but to do that the company needs to tell these people that there is a status quo position in place.

PN249

We understand Munro J said it can't go on forever. We know that. We put a set of words last weeks back to the company to try and break that deadlock of contractors coming in over the week-end and we will probably with that in conference after the main submissions. Commissioner, we have got several issues of contractors being brought on site without any consultation, clearly in breach of the status quo and our members at the end of the day are saying: well, what is the point. There's no point of having a status quo of the Commission if Holdens are just going to tell you to ignore it.

PN250

I don't believe it is the fault of the personnel department and the people dealing with this issue in this room. It is people outside that that have control of week-end work, etcetera, and those are the people that really need to be addressed as far as the bans are concerned. If it please the Commission.

PN251

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Is there anything you want to add that is different, Mr Watson?

PN252

MR WATSON: No, Commissioner.

PN253

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you.

PN254

MR WATSON: I think everything has been covered.

PN255

MR JOHNSON: Commissioner, with your - can I just - unfortunately I've only got one copy of this. I would like to hand this up to you. This is a sheet, a weekly review sheet that this working party or this committee that I refer to meet and they sign off on and you will see at the very top, it makes reference to contractors and the word "nil" is there. That is signed by all the parties.

PN256

THE COMMISSIONER: Is that done as a matter of course after the Wednesday meetings?

PN257

MR JOHNSON: Yes, as part of the Wednesday meetings.

PN258

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN259

MR JOHNSON: I'm sorry I haven't got any further copies.

PN260

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, we will get copies of this.

EXHIBIT #C1 WEEKLY REVIEW SHEET

PN261

MR JOHNSON: Would you like me to speak to it any further?

PN262

THE COMMISSIONER: No, I don't think that is necessary, thank you, Mr Johnson. Ms Gray?

PN263

MS GRAY: Commissioner, the status quo issue is a complex one as I indicated before. We have had what the union believe and call breaches over this period of time but in good faith the management of the company - and I don't just talk about the personnel department here - have gone back to the executive group, have gone back to the managers at Holden and indicated clearly that we have a status quo arrangement and agreement. So the complexity of it is actually running the business and maintaining that status quo.

PN264

In this instance in particular, and they are all very similar, I refute the words "blatantly disregard the status quo" because it is a very different perspective I suppose that I want to put on it. Perhaps if I read out a little bit of a file note that was given to me by one of people that investigated, because we have set up a process whereby as has been said, on a Wednesday we have all of the maintenance supervisors across the site meet with their different union representatives. At that meeting and we give out lists of all of the contract work on site and this is a time when the union can come back with any grievance that they have got with these lists.

PN265

They either do it with the management at the time or they have got the ability to use our grievance procedure and come through to the personnel department if they so wish which has happened. So we give out those lists. We have had instances when we've tried to now maintain the status quo where the engineering department have fallen down in their ability to advise. We've gone back to that group and we made sure that they will in future advise and consult. We've put in a process that they all advise the maintenance supervisors and that information will go down on those sheets that I showed you.

PN266

We've had plant and equipment, central services, put in a position where they have fell down in the status quo in advising and we've gone back to them and they also now send out a copy which I receive and my personnel officers plus the maintenance supervisors receive of all the contract work that will happen up to when they are advised on a Wednesday. What happens after that is, on a Thursday or Friday we can still need to contact contractors to come on site. So we've agreed with our central services and our plant and equipment group that the maintenance supervisors are the ones that instigate that and they will advise the union representatives of any changes to that listing.

PN267

So we have addressed that. Now, in this instance, Brad Palmer advises me:

PN268

The first incident occurred on Saturday 2 June when a representative from phonic robotics was in on the IRS ex member multi-link project. The contractor had been working on the cell during the week and it was anticipated he would be finished by Friday.

PN269

At approximately 4 pm on the Friday, the contractor notified engineering he needed to work on the Saturday to continue the project and the project work is agreed under our contractor's agreement. We had another incident with Lincoln Electronic but the union didn't really take that one on board. They were very much interested in this issue with the phonic people. Despite - this is what Brad informs me:

PN270

Despite this issue not being discussed at the Wednesday union meeting, the union is only concerned about the phonic issue which is turn key. As such the union has previously consulted as to the ongoing nature of the projects. The union's argument is that they were not informed of their presence on the site.

PN271

So, yes, you can understand - or I can understand that the union is saying: okay, on this day we weren't informed that it was going to happen but it was previously consulted and because we had an emergency situation arise on the Friday, normally what would happen is consultation would take place as soon as possible after that in accordance with the contractor's agreement. First what I'm trying to do is illustrate the complexity of how we negotiate, how we consult. It is not as easy as saying there's this number of contractors on site today because it is a moving target, if I can put it that way.

PN272

So they are the reasons why I say that we don't - and I don't believe that management of Holden blatantly disregard the status quo. I can cite that we have our executive director and when we've had an issue like this, this executive director has actually got his management group and I could say has been not very polite in telling them that they will adhere to the status quo. So although perhaps these people might not know what happens behinds closed doors, we do make sure after an issue arises that shouldn't have that that is addressed.

PN273

We will continue to do that. I would hope for a position where we could say we never looked like we had breached it. I can say, and I firmly believe, we don't breach it in total disregard of that status quo. Alke is advising me and Alke does a lot of the investigations that the breaches have occurred four times since February, so there are other occasions that apparently we haven't been advised of, because I think we heard about six or seven then. That is really to talk about status quo. Joe has gone onto talking about what I've called the report back, which, to me, I suppose, what I was trying to, first of all, address is the bans and limitations and the fact that we do adhere to status quo, we have got a commitment to adhering to it. It is not easy but we will continue to strive for it to be perfect. Now, I can go into the report but my first issue was the issue of the bans and limitations, Commissioner.

PN274

MR JOHNSON: Commissioner, could I have an opportunity just to respond to a couple of those comments?

PN275

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN276

MR JOHNSON: Thank you. Ms Gray made reference to the complexity, you know, of the whole issue and that is running the business and also maintaining the status quo. Commissioner, this agreement, contractor's agreement, has been in place since 1991 and, as you alluded to in your opening comments, the car [sic] announced their 6th millionth car yesterday, so I think the contractor's agreement has worked very well for all parties. So I don't think it is as complex as what the company is alluding to. Secondly, with reference to this issue in question, Ms Gray made comment that a contractor had been working during the work and that the work was anticipated to be finished on the Friday and it wasn't, so therefore they had to come in on the Saturday.

PN277

Mr Walker, my senior shop steward, has just indicated to me that the manager of that area had been given phone numbers of the local shop steward, the senior shop stewards from all unions, in case of such emergencies. To our understanding there was no contact made with respect to the contractor having to come in on the Saturday. The point I'm trying to make is if there was a phone call made to perhaps Mr Walker or the shop stewards in the plant itself and the particular area the matter could have been resolved and we may not be in the situation that we are in.

PN278

That contact wasn't made, and I have to say, you must give credit to the seniors, because the senior stewards are trying to assist the company in preventing this sort of thing from happening. As I said, phone numbers were given to the managers, so - and the company would have that on their records, so I just ask the question: why, then, wasn't a phone call made to try and resolve this matter, instead of just going ahead and saying: right, come in on the Saturday, knowing that this issue is a very explosive issue? That, as I've alluded to earlier, the frustration of workers out there is just tremendous. So, you know, there is methods that we can - that the company could have used in the period in question to overcome the problem.

PN279

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, what do you suggest we do about this issue, Mr Johnson?

PN280

MR JOHNSON: Commissioner, I think we've got to get on with life and perhaps go back to work - back to normal, but the company come to the Commission and indicate that the unions are in breach but I think we've alluded to you today that we are not intentionally trying to do that. We are not intentionally trying to put bans and limitations on but when there is breaches by the company with respect to status quo and this individual, it is not the first occasion, as I said. It is the second occasion in as many months. Now, Ms Gray also alluded to that senior management - and I've actually talked to senior management, privately, about this issue, and with respect to status quo. Now, senior management, if they are talking to their managers, then their managers are not going down the ladder and talking to these people that make decisions on contractors, because it is the second time that this individual has done this. So may be the - - -

PN281

THE COMMISSIONER: So in fact, it concerns what you perceive as a lack of communication by a manager?

PN282

MR JOHNSON: I would say, yes. Yes, or not understanding what the status quo is meant to be.

PN283

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right, thank you. What are the other issues that the company wants to raise?

PN284

MS GRAY: In regards to a report back - - -

PN285

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN286

MS GRAY: At the last report back, Munro J requested the Trade Unions identify work that they accept or do not accept. In the contractor's procedure, you have that - I think that is H1?

PN287

MR ROELINK: H2.

PN288

MS GRAY: H2, thank you, Alke. That was - that draft is the Holden's Contractor's Procedure which was put to the union in April of this year. In the transcript from the Commissioner dated 17 May, he says:

PN289

All that praise generally in clause 1 and the words in clause 5 that they say are an issue but my ...(reads)... based upon the points of agreement or disagreement in relation to Holden's 2.

PN290

As yet, the company is not in receipt of this and another 3 weeks have passed while we attempt to maintain the status quo. We reiterate the status quo agreement is considered detrimental to the running of our business and as a temporary measure, while we consult and advise employees of future requirements of the company. The union did, however, submit at our last meeting a paper on how the company could utilise our trades people for overtime. If I could put that forward as an exhibit, Commissioner? A draft copy, 26.5.01.

PN291

THE COMMISSIONER: Whose document is this?

PN292

MS GRAY: That was put forward by the union to address, I believe, the Commissioner's recommendation - - -

PN293

THE COMMISSIONER: Munro J?

PN294

MS GRAY: Yes. It is of Munro J, yes.

EXHIBIT #H4 DOCUMENT DATED 26/05/2001 PAPER TO ADDRESS MUNRO J RECOMMENDATION

PN295

MS GRAY: Unfortunately, we believe the paper is no different to the position put to the company in January of this year and we find ourselves still in in stalemate with that document, although we have not had the opportunity to get back to the union at this stage on that, it was put forward last week. The union document and position brings us to the nub of the causes for dispute with some of our trades people over the last year or more. That is, the company consult on the Wednesday, the maintenance people are required to work Saturday - if the maintenance people are required to work Saturday, not Sunday, we cannot get enough volunteers to fill the plant and work.

PN296

The union say we cannot bring in supplementary labour for the Saturday but they will do the work on the Sunday. The union also say the company cannot bring in contractors on the Sunday if there are no Holden employees working overtime. These are the issues that actually bring us back to the contractors' agreement and why it is not working for us and why Munro J indicated that we should (1) look at the procedure that we proffered at these meetings to try and come up with a better, if you like, melding of the two documents, as the way perhaps I would see it.

PN297

THE COMMISSIONER: That was the two documents, that is H4 and H2, is it?

PN298

MS GRAY: H2.

PN299

MR ..........: No, that is H4.

PN300

MS GRAY: No, I would have said that the Contractors' Agreement and the procedure.

PN301

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, yes, what numbers have they been allocated?

PN302

MR ..........: H1 and H2.

PN303

MS GRAY: The company has acquiesced to this issue many times over the last few years but in a need to address the issue we have attempted to consult to change the poor management practice, is the way we view it, to ensure the work can be planned and completed in a timely manner. The document the union have put forward does not address - don't ask me what number that one is.

PN304

MR ..........: H4.

PN305

MS GRAY: H4 - does not address appropriate skills, timing requirements for planning purposes and the efficient use of skills of our Holden maintenance trades' people. What the company is saying, and what the union find difficult - and I can understand that - is that we will consult with our people weekly about contract work on site. We will give our people first option on planned maintenance overtime, be it Saturday, Sunday or during the week and dependent on the skills that we require. We will ask - sorry, we will use the overtime register when we cannot reach numbers required.

PN306

We will use contractors for supplementary labour if we have planned work for Saturday and not enough Holden people are available. We will bring contractors in on a Sunday or at any time required without bringing in Holden employees as long as we have duly consulted and these contractors are used for non-core business, specialised work, emergency situations, project work, warranty work or supplementary labour as I indicated above. I suppose what I've tried to do there is indicate what our management are saying they need to do in regards to using contractors on site and working overtime for the future of our business.

PN307

THE COMMISSIONER: All right, what are the other issues that the company wants to raise?

PN308

MS GRAY: Commissioner, I suppose where we need to go now, we need the union to understand how we will bring in contractors. We have talked for quite some time about consulting and we've been asked by the union representatives, our seniors, that if you have to change, if you need to change, what you need to do is consult with us and then we will go out to our employees and we will put that proposition to them. We've spent a lot of time consulting, we seem to be poles apart in where we are going. I suppose what we seek here is some assistance in how we deal with our management issues.

PN309

We have got a concern about how our people feel, we can understand that they are torn between I suppose what the union are saying should happen with contractors, their overtime, whether they feel their jobs are in jeopardy. We want to be able to assure them their jobs are not in jeopardy, we want to be able to assure them that their overtime will be addressed; however, we also need to address our issues as far as bringing in contract work, work being done in a timely manner and that is what we have not done for the last 2 years. What we've done is we've often let - because we've had a contractor in on a Sunday we've actually let our Holden people work when really there was no need for that. We have to really look at our practices and try to, I suppose, get some commitment from the union that they understand how we need to work in the future.

PN310

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. What I think would be useful is for me to distil the issues and put a recommendation back to the parties that perhaps you could consider, see if there are parts, whether they are acceptable, and to go from there, just to see, as you say, if we can try to resolve this substantial hiccup that has occurred. In the meantime, I am going to extend the status quo position that Munro J has put in place. I cannot understand why, from the company's view, there are breaches of the procedure when there seems to be such a clear understanding from everybody how it can work.

PN311

Even if you say that the breaches are not of the number that Mr Kane went through, you have even indicated through your own submissions that there have been at least four breaches from February. Now, that is - I just don't understand why those breaches are occurring. I would have thought, at this particular time, given the sensitivity of the issue, that the relevant manager would ensure that the appropriate notice has been given. Now, in terms of how the overtime - the use of contractors, I beg your pardon, has been operating, I can understand the problems that you have and there will need to be changes made but in this interim period it is not too much to expect that everyone is going to totally follow the status quo and if, as you say, there - that the contractor has been working there for some time - as the example has been given, was expected to finish Friday, had to come back Saturday - in those circumstances, to allay the fears of people, I can't understand why the shop steward wasn't - the senior wasn't given a phone call.

PN312

I just - for a company that is usually, in my view, admirable in the way in which it consults with its employees at Elizabeth, I can't understand why there's been - it seems a digging in of the heels to say: well, officially, we have had this person on contract. I just think that it perhaps could be dealt with a little more sensitivity. Now, all the issues that you have gone through in terms of having contractors on site and people working when they are not required to work, I mean, they are significant issues that will be dealt with and, as I say, I would like to see if I can assist the parties by perhaps putting down some principles based on the background documentation and Munro J did pass a file onto me and I've obviously had a chance to go through the transcript and the documents that are here.

PN313

So I would like to see if I could perhaps put some principles back to you for discussion. I won't put them in the form of a recommendation but rather see if I can find a document that you can start with rather than just as you say being poles apart and saying: well, here's our position and we're not moving. Now, in that context, I'm going to say that there should be a continuation of the status quo and if that means you need to deal with people behind closed doors to tell them once again what that means, then you will have to do it. In terms of reasonableness, there may be some parts of the operation that are unreasonable in relation to the contractors but, surely, they are things that you can work through with all the parties.

PN314

All right, that is it on the issue of the contractors. I will get that out to you Tuesday or Wednesday. In the meantime, I can't see why you can't follow the understandings that were made at the time before Munro J and the issues that are specifically addressed on 9 April direction and recommendation. Now, do you want to deal with the other issues on transcript or in conference?

PN315

MR KANE: Commissioner, in response to Ms Gray, it is very important that the Commission understands what the company really wants out of this, this whole agenda. The company spent 4 days in Melbourne last week in relation to their building of a partnership, their climbing of a mountain, that is a graph that they've got, for a partnership building between the company and the unions, a party to the Holden's new enterprise agreement, and if they want a fundamental change to how the contractors' agreement has worked in the past re Holden's 2, and that is core business and non-core business; if they want to define what our members are going to do in those plants that has to be done on enterprise bargaining. They will never, ever get agreement in this type of dispute from the unions on defining those principles because that is a major change to what has happened in the past at the Elizabeth plant and, in fact any enterprise that I look after, we've never defined what is core and non-core.

PN316

THE COMMISSIONER: Are you saying it can't be done?

PN317

MR KANE: Well, Commissioner, we would be - we would have major problems with our membership if that was to happen. The basic requirement of the company to have contractors in at weekends to supplement their normal employees for the work that they need to get done at the weekend, we believed H4 addresses. I mean, that is our draft and we put that forward in good faith. Ms Gray has been on holiday this week, the shop stewards were all in Melbourne last week, so there was no-one to address the issues anyway, we couldn't forward the process because there was no-one to do it, the parties were tied up in other matters.

PN318

So the crux of the issue at hand is an agreement on how to bring contractors in on the weekend and how to supplement the work-force, not to define what the core and non core work is. If the company wanted to find that when we say that is an extra claim and they do it at enterprise bargaining, it is a different issue, a totally different issue. This dispute arrived when the director of operations at Elizabeth for the Holden operations told the management that: there is too much indirect overtime, cut it, and that is when it started. The management went out and instead of cutting the overtime, they cut the overtime hours of the full-time employees and brought in contractors, that is what started this dispute. Not the core and the non-core worker. It is just a plain fact of money.

PN319

Now, it is very easy for anyone to say that overtime hours for indirect workers versus contract work on-site is too bundles of money. One goes one way and one goes the other and the director of operations can say: well, you have cut the indirect overtime, but does not bother about the amount of money they are spending on contractors. That is the crus of this.

PN320

THE COMMISSIONER: Do you really believe that that is the case.

PN321

MR KANE: That actually happened, that is - - -

PN322

THE COMMISSIONER: That they don't care at all - - -

PN323

MR KANE: They probably - - -

PN324

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - that they are spending more money in one area and less in another.

PN325

MR KANE: It is not for me to say but what I am saying is that - - -

PN326

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, yes, but I think you need to be a little bit realistic.

PN327

MR KANE: Yes.

PN328

THE COMMISSIONER: Of course they are going to have a look.

PN329

MR KANE: Well, I mean, it is a fact. It is a fact. I mean, they have cut the overtime levels in their plans for the full-time employees, but at the same time they are bringing in contractors. There is no logic in it, absolutely no logic so they have a directive - - -

PN330

THE COMMISSIONER: No, I understand what you are saying, Mr Kane, but I really don't think you can stand there and say that: this person only cares about cutting in this area and not a huge expansion and the other. Isn't it all about greater productivity and lessening any perceived over-runs or waste?

PN331

MR KANE: Lessening the amount of hours that are worked on overtime at the weekend, that is - basically that is what I am saying. But if you have 20 full-time workers working a Saturday, supplemented by 10 contractors, what is the difference between the 30 full-time workers working over the span of the weekend to do the work? I can't see the difference. I would believe it would be more expensive.

PN332

THE COMMISSIONER: I can if they don't have the skills.

PN333

MR KANE: We are not talking about skills, Commissioner, there is no skills involved in this. The contractors are supplementing the maintenance crews that work at the weekend and they - they complement of trades that is at the site have the full range of skills to do the work.

PN334

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, there are issues raised by the company, as I understand it, that that may not be the case. See, this is where I think there is some fundamental misunderstandings.

PN335

MR KANE: There are what we call "turncoat contracts", that is a project-type contract, the contractors tender for the work and they get the work - that has never been in dispute. The trades people at Holden's probably wouldn't have the skills to do those. But supplementary labour hire, or supplementary labour contract companies to work on machines, or to build machines, or put machines - mend machines, or to do whatever - or to weld for instance - to weld up new brackets or that - the company have the full skills to do that. Instead of opening up on a Sunday and bringing people in, or on the Saturday evening and bringing the afternoon shift in, they just want to work the Saturday and they flood the place with contractors to get it done in a period of time, and when that happened we had the dispute.

PN336

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Kane, I understand all these arguments, but just answer me this. Is the issue here that people - that your members are concerned that their access to overtime is going to disappear?

PN337

MR KANE: It has in some cases to a certain extent, not fully, but to a certain extent, but the big issue is job security and consultation and they - they swing away by the company to a total different focus on core and non-core work, that is the main issues and they should be dealt with in the forum that is currently meeting.

PN338

THE COMMISSIONER: I agree with you on that but they have to be addressed.

PN339

MR KANE: If it please the Commission.

PN340

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. All right, look, I am going to adjourn these proceedings, Ms Gray.

PN341

MS GRAY: Sorry, Commissioner. Mr Cook would like to have a few words if that is possible although time is running out.

PN342

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Cook.

PN343

MR COOK: Thank you, Commissioner. I am not a third party in this. I actually deal with these issues day in and day out.

PN344

THE COMMISSIONER: Now, Mr Cook, just tell me this. You are not the one that has been causing all the problems, are you?

PN345

MR COOK: No, they alluded to that that I wasn't, so I am - but I certainly deal with it day in and day out and one of the things I have got to say is that, you know, a lot has been said about our director and what he has or has not done. He has clearly made - well, to me at my level - and I am an assistant area manager - I clearly understand that I will consult and I will not miss an opportunity - and I think that can be borne out. The continual breaking of the status quo - I'm very aware of what goes on, on the site and Joe brought up all these issues. I certainly - it was the first time I had ever heard of it. I'm aware of it because it impacts what we do in the body shop.

PN346

So the timing I suppose is the most important thing and we talked about how we bring people in on a Saturday and we will decide that if we have got enough of our people - and I talked about the shop that I control, or am party to running - on a Saturday we will ask - and we will have a quantity of work to do and we will think: well, I've got about 60-odd trades that come under my control, and we will ask all 60 of them to work that 8 hours on Saturday and that includes the midnight shift, the afternoon shift, and we may still pull up five or 10 people short, you know, to do that work and we will say: well, listen, we could get it all done if we had five or 10 people in and we will do it all on one day and we will all get a day off.

PN347

I have got five people that want to work on the Sunday, which means I've to bring in a supervisor, I've got to open the plant up, I've got to pump it up with air, I've got to pump it up with water, do all these things so five people can work on the Sunday. They had the opportunity of working on the Saturday, or some of them worked the Saturday and wanted to work the Sunday, so duty - I have really got a duty of care. I look at some of the hours we have asked people to work in the past and I have got to say it is unreasonable. It is unreasonable about the amount of overtime we are asking them to work but I don't hear any of this coming up and, in fact, I think at the end of the day if we are brutally honest with each other, it is talking about what people earn and the dollars they take away from it. Maybe not about the company - the survival of the company - and I've been a tradesman - I've been in the organisation 30-odd years.

PN348

I was most probably partly guilty for at one time of what is happening today as a tradesman - and I suppose your perspective of it changes as you grow older and things happen to you and your position in the company changes. Certainly, it has not been an easy time but we talk about things that we did and we didn't do and we talk about the status quo and I bought one set of minutes along with me because I do sit with Rocky - Mr Labbozetta - every week and we talk about these issues. And again yesterday - on that Wednesday meeting I overlooked one small thing - and I think Rocky would agree it was small - we are getting some people in to put some non-skid flooring down - nothing that Holden's people do - but I certainly know in the back of me mind what Frank Woolford, who they refer to as, "the director", said: get them up there.

PN349

To that end I chased him, or had about five people chase him just before I went to a meeting - and he certainly had a meeting to go to - to let them know. Not that it put any of our people out of work. The mere fact that we needed to consult. It was a 2-minute going past each other - I will refer to him as "Rocky" because that is how we talk to each other - Rocky - and he said: yes, that is all right, Geoff, just - and we did a minute of that - we minute every other job that we have got in the place, you know to the best of our ability, every time we try to do that.

PN350

I can partly feel for the people in the other plant. Without - you know, you think: that job is going to be finished and you get taken away with other things and for whatever reason it got under their guard, I suppose. But I think to myself - when I heard about it I thought: it could have been fixed so easily from both sides of it. I didn't think it needed to get to the stage it could have been certainly cut off from our side of it but, yes, I just thought I needed to say that. I am one of the people that actually work with it. It does take up a lot of quality time. It is very hard to at times - especially when we decide there is only enough work for one day how we actually get them in.

PN351

You know, after we have offered everyone within my group the chance of working 8 hours, and then they say: there is still four blokes that could do it on a Sunday, which means I bring in a supervisor, we bring in security - well, we have to open gates, we need to get the power house in and a lot of other utilities to cover it. That is really all I have got to say and thanks very much for your time.

PN352

THE COMMISSIONER: Right. Well, just as well I have come back so fresh and visiting all the car plants - even though my invitation to yesterday must have got lost in the mail - - -

PN353

MR WATSON: We would have sent you one, Commissioner.

PN354

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Watson.

PN355

MS GRAY: I was on holidays, Commissioner.

PN356

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Gray, no excuse. All right. Let me see if I can put into some sort of discussion paper a proposal that you can look at next week. Look, in terms of this it is - I can sympathise with the arguments on both sides and it is very difficult for employees who are used to a particular level of wage made up of all its various components, including overtime, to understand that that might change - that is compounded by the broader issues that are going through enterprise bargaining on the company changing, if you like, to core and non-core, and that raising possible issues of job security, but there are also some extremes I see that really shouldn't be part and parcel of this, and I think Mr Cook has just raised one classic example of that.

PN357

For the other point of view, if things are going to work then consultation is critical and it may be that people have unfairly looked at the lack of consultation in a couple of areas here, but I think the fact that it has come to this point shows that it is difficult but it just is absolutely critical, particularly at this time. Well, that might be a good opportunity then to - unless there is anything else - if I could put - as I say, I am not going to recommend it to you, but I just want to take the union and the company papers and see perhaps if I can come up with a fresh proposal, or building on various elements of it. Now, in the meantime, the status quo is to remain. I think it might be useful for us to not keep putting this off into the never never. You may resolve this entirely through enterprise negotiations, but just on this particular issue here I want to look at a report back. We will go off transcript, thank you.

OFF THE RECORD [11.04am]

ADJOURNED ACCORDINGLY [11.15am]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #H1 RESOLUTION PN234
EXHIBIT #C1 WEEKLY REVIEW SHEET PN261
EXHIBIT #H4 DOCUMENT DATED 26/05/2001 PAPER TO ADDRESS MUNRO J RECOMMENDATION PN295