C2001/3500, Transcript of Proceedings [2001] AIRCTrans 1678 (24 July 2001)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 10, MLC Court 15 Adelaide St BRISBANE Qld 4000
(PO Box 38 Roma St Brisbane Qld 4003) Tel:[phone] Fax:[phone]

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER HODDER

C2001/3500

APPLICATION TO STOP OR PREVENT
INDUSTRIAL ACTION

Application under Section 127(2) by
Queensland Tug and Salvage Co Pty Limited
for orders in respect of industrial action
by members of AMOU as Tug Masters in its
towage operations in the Port of Brisbane
regarding training, etcetera.

BRISBANE

9.49 AM, FRIDAY, 6 JULY 2001

Continued from 28.6.01

PN1357

THE COMMISSIONER: Could I have appearances, please.

PN1358

MR LEMARE: If it pleases the Commission. Lemare, initial N, Blake Dawson Waldron, continuing our appearance for the company. I have with me MR GREEN, MS DENSON, and also MS SPRAGUE, who will be joining us shortly.

PN1359

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. I will grant you leave, Mr Lemare, given that leave had already been granted to the former legal representative for the applicant. Mr Pinch, you are continuing your appearance?

PN1360

MR PINCH: Yes, but today instead of Mr Fleming being here we have

PN1361

CAPTAIN MAPSON, who has gone from a witness to assisting us on the Bar Table, if the Commission pleases.

PN1362

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. This is promotion, is it?

PN1363

MR PINCH: Could very well be, sir.

PN1364

THE COMMISSIONER: For the purpose of the record, I think the Commission should formalise the fact that the Commission did attend a training session of an order suitable to the Commission, but not necessarily of an order that Captain Green wanted the Commission to involve itself in, in terms of getting in the water. But I appreciate the opportunity, I must say, of both parties to be given the opportunity to actually go through and see the nature of the training that was provided; and insofar as the documentation provided, that is a document of - a bound document - which is headed Introduction to the Three-Man Induction Program, Howard Smith Towage, and I am going to mark that as an exhibit so that it will continue to form part of this file; and that will become QTS exhibit 4.

EXHIBIT #QTS4 DOCUMENT HEADED INTRODUCTION TO THE THREE-MAN INDUCTION PROGRAM - HOWARD SMITH TOWAGE

PN1365

THE COMMISSIONER: Now, I take it the parties obviously both have copies of this document. Now, the purpose of today's proceedings was to have a report back, and obviously have a review of those matters which may have arisen out of the training, and, on that basis, who would like to start? Mr Lemare or Mr Pinch?

PN1366

MR PINCH: Well, look, I have got no problems in getting straight into it, sir. I believe it was with us - we originally have said that the training was inadequate and shallow. It was a decision - a joint decision from the Commission hearing that we would go into the training and have a look at what it meant to us at the end of the day, and then report back to this Commission today.

PN1367

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN1368

MR PINCH: Sir, before we go into that, could I just - - -

PN1369

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it was the intention to have a review as well as a report back, Mr Pinch.

PN1370

MR PINCH: Yes, certainly, sir. And what I will be putting to the Commission today, sir, is I think we have structured it in such a way as to not be critical of a course but to draw out the failures as what we saw, and then put up some suggestions as to the way forward as well, which might give us - - -

PN1371

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, let's get a report first before you start making - or casting aspersions upon the training. I simply want you to confirm that all of your members have now - and employees of the company - have gone through the training that the company was intending to provide.

PN1372

MR PINCH: Yes, certainly, sir. Prior to that, sir, could I just say on transcript, having received the transcript the other day, something that should be corrected as far as the transcript goes, sir. It has got myself as actually asking Mr Thompson questions in evidence, where in actual fact it was Mr Meehan, and it has got myself all the way through there, sir, so I would just like to put that on transcript now, that it wasn't in actual fact myself, but from the company asking Mr Thompson regarding his evidence.

PN1373

THE COMMISSIONER: I see.

PN1374

MR PINCH: Sir, as far as a report back goes, it goes something like this. There were courses conducted on a Friday, Monday and Tuesday. Originally there was going to be one on Wednesday; that was brought forward for reasons that everyone agreed to. I can report back to this Commission that all the masters have attended the course, with the exception of one, and I believe that is the relief master that does some relieving, but all the permanent masters within the port have. They undertook to do that from our last time we were in the Commission, sir. If you want me to go into details of what we saw or what we did, or what came out of that at some stage, sir, I am prepared to go through that.

PN1375

THE COMMISSIONER: No, that is not necessary. I mean, really the intention is to review what has been done.

PN1376

MR PINCH: Certainly, sir.

PN1377

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. So that confirms then that all of the masters other than in the case of one, and that is of a relief master, have now attended and gone through the training which the company intended to provide in relation to the crewing of three-man tugs.

PN1378

MR PINCH: That is correct, sir.

PN1379

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Lemare, is there anything that you wish to say?

PN1380

MR LEMARE: No, thanks, Commissioner. We agree with the outline as put. Certainly from the company's position, it believes that the training to date has been adequate and it is in a position and ready to implement.

PN1381

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, before you both start, I might give you some of my observations. And obviously I am not in a position to talk about the quality of the training, but the thing that struck me arising out of the training was that the real focus in terms of the training seemed to me to be more - or should have been more directed at the engineer and the other deck-hand, because essentially the master's role won't change, other than the fact that there seems to me to be some concern being expressed as to who will actually drive the winch, and the most appropriate location on the tug for that work to be performed. And obviously the masters have put forward a suggestion and that came through loud and clear, unless that has changed, that they would prefer to see the engineer driving the winch, and driving the winch from within the control cabin.

PN1382

That was my understanding; obviously I will be corrected on that if that is not the case, but that is what I gleaned from what I sat and listened to during the training that I - at least on the day that I was there. And it seemed to me that if there were going to be any concerns about training those concerns may more properly be directed towards the engineers. I don't know how recent their training was, and there was some scepticism and in fact some lack of knowledge by one of the engineers who attended the particular course I attended about some of these functions and whether or not these people were truly up to speed to be involved in three-man tug operations.

PN1383

The other thing that came out of the training was that the masters are going to have to in effect check off the respective skills of the engineer before they will sign off the three-man crews. Now, the company during the training course made it clear that at the end of the day it was the call of the masters to be satisfied that the engineers were trained adequately to the extent that they could involve themselves in a three-man tug operation. Now, they are my observations. Now, if they are wrong somebody can correct me. Captain Green, did you want to - - -

PN1384

CAPT GREEN: If I may.

PN1385

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN1386

CAPT GREEN: I recall most of those things you raised, but the one thing I would just question - I wasn't aware that the masters were pushing the case for the engineers to drive the winch from the wheel-house as strongly as you just put.

PN1387

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I thought there was a clear preference to have the engineer do that work, or if not the engineer there was - obviously there was - I don't think they were really saying that they could or they couldn't, but that seemed to me to be the preference that was coming through; and obviously there is concern then about whether that is going to raise some friction between the engineer and the deck-hand given that the NEI seems to think that that is their work. Well, whether it is or not I am not sure, because the engineer is obviously going to perform some of their functions anyway in a three-man crew operation. But that was what I - I mean, that was the view that I gained based on what I had heard. I am not saying it was hard and fast, Captain Green, that the masters were saying it had to be the engineer, but I think the preference was to have the winch driven from the control cabin.

PN1388

MR PINCH: Could I be of assistance there, sir, and tidy this one up. The preference of the masters is certainly for the controls to be done in the bridge - from the wheel-house, not from deck, because there is more that can go wrong on the deck without sight with those people. That was the concern that was raised. As far as who drives the winch, I think that will be worked out at the end of the day. It could be even the master at times that might also touch up on the winch; I don't think that is a real critical point. The critical point, sir, was insofar as that - - -

PN1389

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that is provided for in any event, isn't it?

PN1390

MR PINCH: Yes.

PN1391

THE COMMISSIONER: In the schematic design of the way this is going to be done, as I recall, one of the overheads that was produced actually provided for - I think it was a clear statement that the job doesn't belong to anybody in essence, and that either one of the three, but logically I think it is clear that the master's role is in actually driving the tug, not necessarily being involved in the winch operation.

PN1392

MR PINCH: Certainly, sir. That is the case, but there will be some times where the master will control the winch.

PN1393

THE COMMISSIONER: I agree, Mr Pinch.

PN1394

MR PINCH: I don't think at the end of the day - one of the things on the course, and one of the things I was going to mention, sir, was the thing about responsibilities. It was all this great thing of let's have a team approach, but that cannot work in a lot of cases because the master has the overall riding responsibility for it is the master who is sued when anything goes wrong.

PN1395

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, but that still doesn't detract from the team approach, because somebody has to be in charge, surely.

PN1396

MR PINCH: Yes, certainly it doesn't detract from the team approach and it is great to see a team approach; but if we were coming down to saying who is going to drive the winch today, the responsibility comes down to the master who sees fit of the person who was going to be in that function. There are a lot of roles where - - -

PN1397

THE COMMISSIONER: Would it come to that?

PN1398

MR PINCH: I think it would, sir.

PN1399

THE COMMISSIONER: How is he going to make that judgment, who's fit to drive? I mean, both of them should be fit to drive. The three of them should be fit to drive. I can't see how that can be an issue.

PN1400

MR PINCH: Sir, it depends if the engineer is out of there; if the deck-hand on the day - it probably wouldn't be any set rule. I don't think it would be any set rule.

PN1401

THE COMMISSIONER: No, I don't think so. It's not hard and fast. I'm not suggesting that the view that I got was that it was going to be hard and fast, but there seemed to me, though, to be some concern that the deck-hand might be a bit miffed if the engineer was actually doing the winch work and that the proximity to the master, rather than down on the deck, might become an issue. I don't know. I mean, that - you are going to have to suck it and see as far as that goes.

PN1402

MR PINCH: I think, sir, the issue, basically, was where the winch was going to be driven from. That was the issue. It appears that - and especially in the course that we did on Monday - it appeared that Adsteam had a various - a different degree in all their ports on where the winch was controlled from, yet in Brisbane the feeling was that it should be controlled from the bridge, and that was the point that was made.

PN1403

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that was amongst the masters on the day that I was there. I don't know whether that's a consistent want through the rest of them. Captain Green.

PN1404

CAPT GREEN: Sir, on the Tuesday, where we had participation from all three unions, I believe we had consensus that the most appropriate place for the winch to be driven would be up to the team members on the tug. There was no - my recollection - there was no preference for any place. I know some masters did raise the issue that they would like to adjust the winch from the wheelhouse during towage, and that was agreed by all members present, by all the parties present.

PN1405

THE COMMISSIONER: So what are you saying, Captain Green, that essentially it will be up to the master to determine where the winch is driven from?

PN1406

CAPT GREEN: It's a teamwork approach, sir, but at the end of the day all parties recognise that safety is the priority - - -

PN1407

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN1408

CAPT GREEN: - - - and the most appropriate place is the company's position, and if there's three members of that team, with the master having overriding authority, as always, in all these type of operations.

PN1409

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, essentially, then, what you are saying to me, even though you are not saying it quite as clearly as I might put it - it's up to the master where the winch is going to be operated from.

PN1410

CAPT GREEN: As it always has been, sir.

PN1411

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN1412

CAPT GREEN: He's always had that right.

PN1413

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Okay, well, I think we've cleared that up. Anything else? I mean, they are just my observations. Yes, Mr Mapson?

PN1414

MR MAPSON: I would just like to say that the bridge wheelhouse is set up with controls for the winch. They are ergonomically placed so that the master can use them without distraction from his primary duty. The actual conduct of the winch operation will vary from tug to tug on the day because of the master's perception as to what is suitable at the time.

PN1415

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN1416

MR MAPSON: There will be occasions, for instance, when the engineer will be absent from the foredeck where the other control of the winch is, and then it would be safe and practical for the master, who has a view over the work area, to control the winch. But it would be discussed and there would be personal preferences, of course, come into it.

PN1417

THE COMMISSIONER: But it's clear, Mr Mapson, that it's going to have to be a very flexible arrangement, isn't it?

PN1418

MR MAPSON: It will be.

PN1419

THE COMMISSIONER: It will have to be, otherwise it won't work.

PN1420

MR MAPSON: It will be.

PN1421

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Anything else about my observations?

PN1422

MR PINCH: Sir, you raised a couple of other issues; one was in relation to a check-off list.

PN1423

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN1424

MR PINCH: Now, as I understand, it - - -

PN1425

THE COMMISSIONER: And can I say this, Mr Pinch. That's not something that was evident last week during the proceedings in relation to the Section 127 application.

PN1426

MR PINCH: Sir, that only surfaced on the Monday, as far as I'm aware. According to our members that did the course on the Friday, that never surfaced. It was only something that surfaced on the Monday and also then surfaced on the tugs on the Tuesday. Now, there are some engineers, and I say only some, from some of the reports that I've had this morning through all my members, that have said, "We are not going to get masters to check us off." So there's an automatic problem with that in respect to it. I haven't had a chance to speak to the company, naturally, but I also say that; there is a problem with it. Now - - -

PN1427

THE COMMISSIONER: Who were they saying they will accept this checking them off? God?

PN1428

MR PINCH: That I don't know, sir. Some of them are being a bit pedantic as well. But the fact remains that has already been stated, that they are not going to get some master checking them off. Now, it goes without saying, sir, this is the first time it was shown to anyone. We still haven't got a copy, or I haven't, anyway. It was an overhead that no one could see at the time, and I won't go into the course content at this stage - - -

PN1429

THE COMMISSIONER: I understood that was going to be produced on Tuesday.

PN1430

MR PINCH: Sir, as I understand, that went to the tugs on Tuesday for the very first time. People had no input into that, on what should be the check-off list; it just appeared on the tugs on Tuesday with, "This is your check-off list."

PN1431

THE COMMISSIONER: Captain Green is anxious to say something about this.

PN1432

CAPT GREEN: Sir, if I could. The Friday course I attended, basically as an observer, was run by QTS. The Monday and Tuesday course we presented because the responsible person was on leave. The check-off list has been part of our program since we commenced this process 18 months ago. It has been implemented and completed in all ports that Adsteam operate three-man crew tugs, and it's been done with all the engineers and masters.

PN1433

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, with respect, Captain Green, can I say this. I got the distinct impression on Monday that QTS did things a little differently to Adsteam, and I think that's part of the problem. I think there needs to be some consistency applied, and I didn't see consistency in some of the training of the masters and some of the suggestions as to training from Adsteam through QTS, and I think that's a problem.

PN1434

CAPT GREEN: QTS, as you well know, sir, has come to us over recent times by an acquisition.

PN1435

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I understand that, but all I'm saying is that it's a bit of an ad hoc approach. You've got QTS has provided some standard of training; you've got a different - you've got some different methods in your style of training; and it's just a question of are they going to interface or are they going to override, and if they are going to override, well, then, everybody needs to be up to speed with it.

PN1436

PN1437

CAPT GREEN: QTS, sir, has its own safety management system, and because of the newness of our acquisition, of course, we don't want to disturb their safety management system. That was the main thrust of why we let QTS do their own - draft their own manual. However, that manual is based, as you can see yourself, on our slides. Everything that we have presented was given to QTS for them to produce this manual. They did make some slight changes in terms of - the critical alarm flow chart, I think, was one of the major changes. Their flow chart is just as valid as ours, I believe. We looked at it; we were satisfied with it. That's the only major change that I can see.

PN1438

THE COMMISSIONER: It was just a perception that I had, that there were some differences between QTSs training and your style of training, but my main concern now is the checklist, and given what Mr Pinch has just said, that some of the engineers are resisting the masters in effect giving them the tick in terms of them being able to involve themselves in three-man crewing, I think that's a real issue.

PN1439

CAPT GREEN: Sir, that was issued on the Tuesday, as our colleagues across the table say, and we have received a completed form. I've seen one here this morning - - -

PN1440

THE COMMISSIONER: Somebody has checked somebody off?

PN1441

CAPT GREEN: - - - that's been completed, yes, signed by one of the masters and signed by the engineer. It's never been a problem for us. We have done this in all Adsteam ports, and I don't perceive a problem. I'm not aware of the engineers saying anything that our friends across the other side of the table have indicated.

PN1442

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, Mr Pinch, the ball is on your side of the court.

PN1443

MR PINCH: Sir, I'm well aware that there has been one engineer that has been checked off with this checklist. What I hadn't said was there are several - or there were several reports of engineers saying, "It is no way we're going to do this." There are several reports of engineers saying we're not going to do a lot of things that were covered in that course. That is a reality at the moment.

PN1444

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I have a problem - - -

PN1445

MR PINCH: But as far as this checklist goes, sir, and I'm only talking about that checklist at the moment - - -

PN1446

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, let me say this to you before you say anything, Mr Pinch. I have a problem with you in effect giving me hearsay about what some engineers say.

PN1447

MR PINCH: Sir, if I called evidence I would be able to get that out.

PN1448

THE COMMISSIONER: That would be fine. That would be fine if you want to do that.

PN1449

MR PINCH: I can do that if the Commission wanted, sir, but it's not about giving up people. I can assure this Commission that that has happened from my discussions with the masters this morning - - -

PN1450

THE COMMISSIONER: But are they telling the company that, because I would have thought they are the first people they should tell.

PN1451

MR PINCH: As I understand, sir, this only happened, sort of, yesterday, so, no. I would say no.

PN1452

THE COMMISSIONER: I mean, that, to me, needs to be addressed fairly quickly, if there's a problem.

PN1453

MR PINCH: But I wonder whether, sir, at this stage whether that checklist - because it only surfaced on Tuesday - whether that's an appropriate checklist at all. Can I just say on the outset, sir, we are not opposed - sorry, we are not opposed - - -

PN1454

THE COMMISSIONER: Wait until he finishes, Captain Green, and I'll give you - - -

PN1455

CAPT GREEN: Thank you, sir.

PN1456

MR PINCH: - - - to the introduction of the three-man crew, and I would see the three-man crew - next week there could possibly be a three-man crew.

PN1457

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN1458

MR PINCH: There is no problems with that.

PN1459

THE COMMISSIONER: There's a bit of fine tuning - - -

PN1460

MR PINCH: I say that to the company, sir, to put their minds at rest.

PN1461

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, but that says, though, there really needs to be some fine tuning done.

PN1462

MR PINCH: There has to be a lot of fine tuning done, sir, a lot of fine tuning. There were inadequacies with inside what we saw as a course - it wasn't a training course; it was dot points; it was, "Oh let's speed it up because we are in a bit of a hurry to get through; this has no reference to you; that has no reference to you; you know this." There was confusion over both the Howard Smith and the Adsteam models, some people being given the Howard Smith model on the Friday and some different on the Monday, and so there was confusion.

PN1463

But what we have done is we have pieced together all those, as we said we would, to report back to the Commission and also to review it, and hopefully we have got some answers at the end of the day that allow us to move on from there and assist the company in manning of the tugs to three, but also assist the masters in some of their concerns as well. Now, hopefully that is what we are going to be able to do in a short period of time in this Commission this morning.

PN1464

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

PN1465

MR PINCH: Sir, I am prepared to sort of go into some of those things.

PN1466

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, maybe we will go into conference and do that.

PN1467

MR PINCH: Sir, I think that would be good if we could. We can bring it all out in the open and explore the whole lot, because there are some inadequacies that did come from that course.

PN1468

THE COMMISSIONER: Now, Captain Green, you want to respond to something that was said?

PN1469

CAPT GREEN: Sir, it was just about the checklist itself. The checklist - because I am a desk jockey and I have been for many, many years, and so are my colleagues, the checklist was actually drafted by serving tug masters in the port of Adelaide. We reviewed it, and we suggested some changes which they made, and they also reviewed it as a peer group and made some substantive changes as well. The final document both sides agreed to. We're very happy with it, and it was implemented first time round in Adelaide. It worked extremely effectively.

PN1470

THE COMMISSIONER: Now, when you say both sides agreed to it, Captain Green, you and the tug masters in Adelaide?

PN1471

CAPT GREEN: Yes, sir.

PN1472

THE COMMISSIONER: Did you have agreement of the AMOU that that would be extrapolated nationally?

PN1473

CAPT GREEN: The tug masters in all the other Adsteam ports have used the same checklist.

PN1474

MR PINCH: Sir, the company has been very good on this occasion to say it is only about Brisbane. We want to extend it. As you know, in transcript Mr Fleming said that there was major problems concerning the whole lot. It is now not good enough to come in and say, "Well, we have done it in every port. This is great." We are talking about Brisbane today, sir, and the Brisbane masters have had no input into that document.

PN1475

It is very good to come along to this Commission today and say, "The Adelaide masters had input, and this is what we developed," but there are special needs because of special circumstances and because of special tug needs in Brisbane.

PN1476

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, let us go into conference and see if we can nail those down.

PN1477

MR PINCH: Thank you, sir.

PN1478

THE COMMISSIONER: That suit you, Mr Lemare?

PN1479

MR LEMARE: Yes, sir.

PN1480

THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. We will adjourn into conference.

OFF THE RECORD [10.11am]

RESUMED [11.55am]

PN1481

THE COMMISSIONER: Now, following the conference between the parties, are the parties in a position to place on the record matters which were discussed for the purpose of confirmation? Mr Lemare?

PN1482

MR LEMARE: Yes, thank you, Commissioner. The parties are happy to report that with the assistance of the Commission they have reached agreement in terms of the progress of this matter. The terms of that agreement are as follows. First of all, the parties will meet this afternoon with a view to completing the checklist which was discussed at length during the conference.

PN1483

Secondly, there will be a dry run of the three-man arrangement, which will begin tomorrow. However, it will be done on the basis that a fourth crew member will be present on each tug so that the crew can address any concerns about the three-man arrangement. Thirdly, the parties request a report-back before the Commission, at the Commissioner's convenience, at some stage during the latter part of next week to discuss progress of the matter. My friend has some further matters to add to that.

PN1484

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Mr Pinch?

PN1485

MR PINCH: Thank you, sir. There is one thing, just in regards to the completion of the checklist this afternoon. We agreed that we would go down that path and see whether we could complete that, but after the first couple of days, sir, there might be additional things that might come out of the study into the engineers is doing that, so it might be changed just slightly. I don't see that as a big issue, but it is something that we did discuss and basically agree on that.

PN1486

Sir, there were some other matters that were also raised during conference which I just earmark for the Commission's attention, and they were that the standing orders would have to be changed at the end of the day to comply with some of the new operating procedures that are done by the masters. Sir, we also talked in consultation about bridge resource management courses, about advanced fire fighting courses, tug simulation, which would encompass restricted visibility, man overboard, engine alarm systems, both critical and non critical.

PN1487

There was also discussions, sir, about Brisbane's pilots and their involvement, and there were also discussions about skills audit for relieving deck-hands. We centred some of our discussions on further issues, including dead ship movements, changing of fenders, manning of tugs to Caloundra, gas tanker transfers in the bay. Now, most of those, sir, we had genuine discussions on them. Some of those areas, it was agreed that the company would respond back to us, especially insofar as those courses go. We would ask that the next report back to this Commission may be some of the answers to those courses the company might be able to give us, if the Commission pleases.

PN1488

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Lemare, anything in reply?

PN1489

MR LEMARE: Well, certainly the company will be doing its utmost to respond to all the issues that have been raised by the report back at some stage next week. As we have envisaged during the conference, there are a number of matters, a number of issues attached to those, and we certainly can't give any guarantee that we can address and resolve all of those additional issues by the report back, but certainly we will do our utmost to do so.

PN1490

THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. Thank you. Well, insofar as the report back is concerned, the Commission will re-list this matter for report back hearing at 1.30 pm on Friday, 13 July. I hope that's not an ominous sign; that's Black Friday. So I thank the parties for their assistance during today's hearing, and I simply indicate that the Commission has reserved its position and decision as to the Section 127 application, but I am hopeful that the Commission won't have to deal with that matter, subject to the outcomes that perhaps we can engineer next week.

PN1491

MR PINCH: Sir, I believe that that Section 127 was about getting our masters to do the courses. I mean, it wouldn't be appropriate to continue down that path.

PN1492

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Pinch, I don't need any further submissions on that. I have heard what the parties have had to say, and I will determine that appropriately.

PN1493

MR PINCH: Thank you, sir.

PN1494

THE COMMISSIONER: So at this point in time that is still on foot. On that basis I will adjourn these proceedings.

ADJOURNED UNTIL FRIDAY, 13 JULY 2001 [12.01pm]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #QTS4 DOCUMENT HEADED INTRODUCTION TO THE THREE-MAN INDUCTION PROGRAM - HOWARD SMITH TOWAGE PN1365