C2001/4083, Transcript of Proceedings [2001] AIRCTrans 1951 (16 August 2001)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ACN 082 664 220

Level 10, MLC Court 15 Adelaide St BRISBANE Qld 4000
(PO Box 38 Roma St Brisbane Qld 4003) Tel:[phone] Fax:[phone]

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER JONES

C2001/4083
C2001/4075

BECHTEL AUSTRALIA PTY LTD

and

AUTOMOTIVE, FOOD, METALS, ENGINEERING, PRINTING AND
KINDRED INDUSTRIES UNION

BECHTEL AUSTRALIA PTY LTD

and

THE AUSTRALIAN WORKERS UNION

Notification pursuant to Section 99 of the Act
of a dispute re industrial action taken by employees
over domestic matters

BRISBANE

8.02 AM, FRIDAY, 27 JULY 2001

Continued from 26.7.01

PN49

THE COMMISSIONER: Can I have the appearances, please.

PN50

MR K. WATSON: Yes. May it please the Commission, I appear again for the notifier, Bechtel Australia Pty Ltd.

PN51

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Watson.

PN52

MR I. McCOMBE: May it please the Commission, Ian McCOMBE, representing the AMWU.

PN53

MS Y. D'ATH: If the Commission pleases. D'ath, initial Y. on behalf of the Australian Workers Union, and with me, CHAMBERS, initial F. and WILLIAMS, initial M.

PN54

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Thanks very much, Ms D'Ath. Yes, Mr Watson.

PN55

MR R. McPHERSON: May it please the Commissioner.

PN56

THE COMMISSIONER: Oh, sorry.

PN57

MR R. McPHERSON: McPherson, initials R.J. appearing on behalf of the Australian Industry Group.

PN58

MR C. TOMLINSON: Tomlinson, initial C., for the Australian Industry Group.

PN59

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Thank you, Mr Tomlinson. Thank you, Mr McPherson. Yes, Mr Watson.

PN60

MR WATSON: May it please the Commission. To put to the Commission background in relation to this matter, I would take it that the Commission probably doesn't have much information in regard to what this project is about, so I thought I would just give some brief information to the Commission. The project is a construction of a power station, a private power station, privately constructed and privately owned power station in Millmerran in Queensland. Millmerran is west of Toowoomba and it has a construction camp which is near or in the township itself, and then the people commute to the construction site from various other places, usually from the environs of Toowoomba, to the construction site.

PN61

The construction has been going now for nearly a year and this is not the first time that the matter has been before the Commission. The matter came before - well, a matter - that is, a dispute notification came before Commissioner Hoffman in December 2000. I think it was 14 December, but around that time anyway, and Commissioner Hoffman made a statement on transcript in relation to the use of the disputes procedure and safety procedures. On another matter, said to be safety issue - well, strike action was taken, said to be about a safety issue, and the matter came on again before Commissioner Hoffman on 3 May of this year, and on that day Commissioner Hoffman said this in transcript:

PN62

The Commission repeats to a degree the statements that were made last time the parties were before the Commission, and that is that the disputes and safety procedures must be followed, and that requires observance not only of the certified agreement, but also the requirements of the Act, in particular the definition of Section 4 of Industrial Action, and also the company's policy with respect to safety issues. In a nutshell, unless the employee has a reasonable concern about an imminent risk to his safety, then industrial action is contrary to the provisions of the Act, and the requirements of the agreement. The company's policy seems clear, and is consistent with the provisions of the Act, and that is, whilst they use slightly different words, but as I understand it, if it is not safe, don't do it. The Act says, yes, if it is not safe, don't do it. But also the Act says if the employer wants you to work in another area where it is safe, then you must do so.

PN63

The Commissioner is also keen to see the IPT which stands for Incident Prevention Team, or safety committee, be allowed to operate properly. To help achieve that the Commission would strongly recommend that union officials spend a reasonable and sufficient amount of time, particularly with the delegates or other appropriate representatives, and go through not only the disputes but also the safety procedures and briefly the requirements of the agreement and Act, in a way that it is communicated that the employees and their representatives understand what the requirements are, and ensure that they are followed in the future.

PN64

Now, those meetings took place. The unions did organise, especially the Metal Workers Union, did take the delegates through the required - or what the Commission had in mind in relation to advising delegates on site - requirements of safety procedures and what needed to be done. However, regrettably, the matter came again before the Commission, this time Commissioner Grainger, who made a series of recommendations, this is over another matter, and this wasn't a safety related issue, this is an issue where two employees who were AWU members, scaffolders, had been dismissed for fighting in the camp, and the scaffolders initially took industrial action which was then joined in by other AWU members, and unfortunately infected the whole of the work-force. The reason for that is that there was - because work had been done in dismantling a certain section of the project whilst employees were on strike, that caused a further - or further industrial action to be taken.

PN65

THE COMMISSIONER: When was that done?

PN66

MR WATSON: Sorry?

PN67

THE COMMISSIONER: When was that?

PN68

MR WATSON: That was in June. I am sorry, it was in June.

PN69

THE COMMISSIONER: This year?

PN70

MR WATSON: Of this year, yes. And Commissioner Grainger made some recommendations on that on the 12 June 2001. I will hand those up - copies to the Commission.

PN71

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay, thank you. Yes, okay.

PN72

MR WATSON: Can I particularly commend 2.3 to the Commission, because it is pertinent to the present situation, and what happened particularly in relation to the Australian Manufacturers Workers Union members. Can I then bring you to the present situation, Commissioner. Industrial action was taken by Australian Workers Union members on the Wednesday, 25 July.

PN73

What happened, if I can just summarise in this way, was an unauthorised stop work meeting took place on Wednesday morning, 25 July, and as a result of that Mr Chambers and a senior AWU shop steward met with the project superintendent, Mr Sonny Ross, and Mr Prior, who is also a Bechtel employee and employer relations person on site. A number of issues were brought up or raised at this meeting. We apprehend that there were what we might say two pressing, or seemed to be - seemingly two pressing issues which were the use of rockwool insulation and a demand that when that was being done, that the area - that is where it was being installed - be totally enclosed, and the second was that the laggers wanted PTP2 face masks and disposable overalls.

PN74

Now, there were a number of issues, but I won't go into those issues unless for some reason they become pertinent, because we understand those are the issues, those two issues that I have raised were the pertinent issues, and they were actually new issues in the sense that in this context they hadn't been raised before. A number of the other issues had in fact been raised before.

PN75

Now, the projects response was that they were disappointed that again unauthorised meetings were taking place, that if these - if there were problems, then they should be raised through the disputes procedure, and the project wasn't going to respond until the AWU members were back at work, and an undertaking or a suggestion was made, that the company would place the matters in the hands of the Commission, that is through the disputes procedure. Well, that wasn't taken up, and the - when Mr Chambers and the shop steward went back to the meeting the members elected to take industrial action. And they have elected or moved to take industrial action until next Tuesday, when they have voted to have another meeting at 6.30 am.

PN76

I will just say this, and then I want to go back to the issues which were raised, as I said, were the pertinent issues - Mr Chambers was asked whether or not the AWU would arrange coverage for work in the meantime, such as unloading, the supply of peggies, water buoys and alimac operators and, obviously, whether or not cleaning was going to be undertaken. And, basically, the company was told, no, that wouldn't happen. Now, the reason why that is pertinent is because - you understand from the recommendation from Commissioner Grainger that I have taken you to that the company needed - if there was urgent work to be done, then they need to consult with the relevant union officials prior to work being carried out.

PN77

Now, as you would appreciate, Commissioner, being a construction site, there is incidental work that needs to be done. I mean, cleaning is one of them; that is AWU work. If that work isn't going to be done, then those persons who remain at site, such as the Manufacturing Workers Union and the CEPU, those employees, then who is going to do the cleaning so that they can carry on in a proper way, which is a pertinent issue. And, anyway, the AWU's response was no, so the company was then obviously going to have to make some other arrangements in relation to those matters.

PN78

Can I go back to the two issues. I'm told by a person from Bechtel - I was told this morning by a person from Bechtel who has been in construction industry for something like 20 years and this is probably the cleanest work site that he's been at in terms of this sort of insulation work - there is a code of practice under the Workplace Health and Safety Act (1995) in Queensland. There's a code of practice in relation to the installation of this type of insulation. We are following that code of practice. Now, there has been no allegation, there has been no suggestion, that we are not following the code of practice.

PN79

With respect to the respirators, the masks; we supply P1 as a matter of course because that is what the code of practice requires. However, we are prepared to - and this has been made known to the employees - we will supply half masks of P2 standard, which is a higher standard. And you might - I don't know if you are familiar with the masks; they sort of cover the mouth and the nose - - -

PN80

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I am.

PN81

MR WATSON: - - - and have the little - yes. So if - but they need to be fitted because they come in three sizes and they need to be face fitted - if persons want that, they can get them. In terms of overalls, generally at the work site you have a choice of either overalls or shirt and trousers. Generally at the work site you get three sets. However, in the installation of the insulation, those employees get five sets and they are actually laundered at Bechtel's expense on a daily basis. And they are done at an industrial cleaning place in Toowoomba.

PN82

There is also brushes which are supplied, which I'm told are banister brushes or banislide brushes, for removing the loose fibres if they fall. This is not new to employees. These have all been made known, both in meetings with employees and in ..... . However, if a specific task does require the use of disposable overalls, they are available, and they have been used in the past. They are not required as a matter of the code of practice, as a general requirement. What is required by the code of practice is that there must be a three metre buffer zone between where the insulation is being installed and, obviously, around it. There must be this three metre buffer zone around it.

PN83

Now, we are maintaining that. However, the company's view is that to totally enclose would be impractical, and is not prepared to do that because it is not necessary. Insofar as the loose fibres are concerned, where the fibres fall vacuuming takes place, and that certainly takes place on a daily basis or, I'm told, on occasions at the end of the shift. Sorry, at the end of a work period. So it could conceivably happen more than once a day. We apprehend that there is a concern amongst scaffolders about what will happen when the scaffolding is dismantled and there are fibres there.

PN84

Now, that hasn't happened yet, because scaffolding hasn't been dismantled as yet. What the company is proposing - and this is a matter which has been discussed at meetings with employees; in fact it was one of their suggestions - the company apprehends that the vacuuming will be okay, but if it is not, then a solution will be used whereby a sort of a PVC solution which will bind the fibres together, so that there won't be any loose fibres in the atmosphere when the dismantling takes place. That's a proposal at the moment; it hasn't needed to be done, but we are going to monitor it. We will see what happens.

PN85

Now, in terms of - and we understand, I mean we understand that there may be a concern in the general work-force about this type of material and, obviously, one only has to talk about fibres and one immediately thinks about asbestos and asbestosis, and we understand that. However, we have discussed these matters and we have had our relevant Health and Safety person discuss it with the employees. I am instructed then, in fact, in terms of effect, that it's ranked lower than coffee as to a possible carcinogen. Now, no one is suggesting we remove coffee from the crib sheds, but obviously there is a psychological factor here and we are trying to overcome that. But that's what I am told: that it's lower ranked in terms of possibility of being a carcinogen.

PN86

That's what I want to say about those particular issues. And we would say that we have taken all reasonable steps in relation to trying to allay fears and, in fact, ensuring that it's a safe environment. If I then can just move - as the AWU employee members are out on strike - yesterday, the Manufacturing Workers Union employees took industrial action, and it really arose in this way: the AMWU employees want to know what we are going to do, that is what Bechtel is going to do, since the AWU employees were out, what are you going to do about cleaning, etcetera.

PN87

We explained to them there were options that we could do: we could bring in contract cleaners; we could have supervisors, supervisory staff doing cleaning. They were rejected by the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union as solutions.

PN88

THE COMMISSIONER: Did they put forward any themselves?

PN89

MR WATSON: Sorry?

PN90

THE COMMISSIONER: Did they put forward any themselves?

PN91

MR WATSON: I am instructed, no. But, interestingly, what they did do was pass a resolution. Can I just hand up a copy of that resolution to the Commission. Perhaps if I read it out, that might be - we understand it reads as follows, and this is what was told to us:

PN92

We will withdraw labour until Tuesday, 31 July 2001. Delegates have approached AWU demanding they supply cleaners from Tuesday. If they don't, we will approach Bechtel to go to the Commissioner with us to order them to supply cleaners.

PN93

We find their approach interesting and we would obviously like the AWU to supply cleaners as well. We would like the AWU to supply all the labour and come back. We would like the metal workers to be at work as well. However, the difficulty is that the company has put forward a proposal to keep the site working. It is difficult, in that situation, if the members of the AMWU won't accept those reasonable proposals, but insist on something which, obviously, we can't supply because the AWU, obviously, have taken it out of our hands, because they are not supplying the labour, and that's why we are here, Commissioner.

PN94

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. When is the project due to be completed?

PN95

MR WATSON: I'm sorry?

PN96

THE COMMISSIONER: When is the project due to be completed?

PN97

MR WATSON: I'll take some instructions, but it's a while yet. June 2002, I'm told.

PN98

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. So it's a fair way off.

PN99

MR WATSON: Oh, it's a fair way off, yes.

PN100

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay.

PN101

MR WATSON: I'm just told that the meeting that happened on Wednesday wasn't one out of the blue. There had been some previous meetings to that, and then this was a meeting that took place as a result of those early meetings.

PN102

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, okay. I get the point.

PN103

MR CHAMBERS: Yes, I was just going to say, there was a meeting that was missed last Thursday, where a lot of other issues were raised. Commissioner, it is true that some of the things that have been said, but a lot of these issues have been going and going for some time. There have been - some of them have been sitting there - we have had answers for some of the issues over a period of time, but some of those answers don't please our membership. And of course, every time we have a mass meeting they bring up their new issues, but they also remind us how we failed to get Bechtel to change their mind on some of the others.

PN104

Commissioner, we had a meeting up there last Thursday and one of the reasons for that was to elect a new delegate, because our senior site delegate was resigning and going to another project. And of course, when you have a meeting, which we have to have a meeting to elect our delegate, we just can't do it any other way, and we did request that meeting, but the company did say it was unauthorised but we had no option but to have that meeting. And when we went to that meeting we elected our delegate, plus about another six to give us some help out there with our communication issues and the rest of it, and a heap of issues were raised.

PN105

And again, the SDO at single time, like swapping RDOs and that we have in all our agreements, the members believe that that has been abused and all of - all the outcome is out there is that most people never take their RDOs and then they have worked for single time, and then of course, at the end of the project the hours that they have got worked and they are banked, we pay it out. But as we all know, that really relates to single time. That's always been an issue there, and we've tried to work through it and Bechtel, they've helped us this week with some of the answers. We, as unions, believe that SDOs have been there for a reason; they were won, and people should have them off any how. That's one of the issues that were raised.

PN106

We have also had an issue there about back pay for working Saturdays: if you work eight hours or more there has always been a bit of debate over the interpretation of the two 20 minute breaks. Up till April this year some people had other arrangements and they only had one break and our members have been asking and getting us to front Bechtel over that and, of course, we never got back with the answer whether they were going to get the back pay. Even though I understand it's an awkward one, but it always keeps popping up every time we have a meeting. Plus, before our last dispute when Commissioner Grainger was involved, they always used to work every second Saturday. Everybody was asked to come in every second Saturday.

PN107

All the other overtime and the other week-ends, and so forth, was on request or there was an emergency, or something like that, and after this meeting Bechtel did agree to that. But that was another issue, because people were saying if you had blond hair and blue eyes you got ask to work again since the last dispute, but majority of people weren't being asked. But we did resolve that one with Bechtel after this meeting, but again, it was one of the issues on the Thursday.

PN108

Plus, they want to know what's going to happen when redundancy occurs. The thing on construction and all sites that happens is once the peak occurs and they see cranes starting to disappear and a few other things happening, people start being concerned about when are they going to be made redundant and how are they going to be made redundant. Their request was that instead of getting the week's notice and working it out, the members' request was that we try and work it in with Bechtel that they just get a tap on the shoulder, as what normally happens any how, and they go with a week in lieu so they can find work while they have got that work in lieu being paid.

PN109

Bechtel have agreed to talk to us on 15 August - the three unions with what happen when redundancies occur, so we have an answer there. But we still haven't worked out the week in lieu completely. The other one was an option of working eight hours on Saturday, or ten, because last Saturday when we did work the buses only turned up after 10 hours, not eight hours, and again, we sorted that out. If you work eight hours you bring your own vehicle and drive home. If you work 10 hours the buses will be made available.

PN110

There has always been issues out there about the safety team that are going in Grainger and, I think, went back to Hoffman, is that a lot of our members, the majority of them, still have question marks over the ITP team and the role it plays and the authority it has and so forth. And again, the Commission has made some statements on that previously, but still, if we are talking about safety, there's no good having something in place on site if a fair amount of the workers are still unhappy with the arrangement or how it occurs on site. Probably, to be more honest, about how it's seen to be operating on site. So again, last Thursday we elected - or at the meeting the other day we elected three more people from the AWU to go on that team and we haven't got to talk about that yet because we haven't had any discussions.

PN111

Members have also been complaining over a long period, how do these site safety people - you know if someone goes in with a headache, how they react to that and so forth. Or if they go there with an injury, some of the members claim that they go there with injuries and they just tell them to go back to work, or it's this or it's that, and it ends up being a broken ankle or so forth. I cannot prove all those things, but they are raised at every mass meeting we have, over the medical staff being doctors and so forth.

PN112

Plus, there has always been complaints about how people, if they are injured up there in Millmerran, if they are in the camp, how they get to their physio; how they do this and how they do that, because a lot of people don't take their cars up there. They either go up with somebody else or catch a bus or so forth. And again, it's a communication thing, because some guys get the company to arrange their physios and their doctor's appointments, and some try and do it themselves and there's always a communication break down, and some people are left sitting in the camp, and not getting to their appointments. That's always been an ongoing issue.

PN113

The other one was notice boards in crib rooms for AWU outcomes. That means after meetings they want us to put notices up. Well, I think we've cleared that up. The AWU will put some boards up there, or will try and clean up the other boards and Bechtel have agreed to do that because all these boards end up with things for sale on them, and a few other odds and ends, and there's no room for union outcomes or some times not even company outcomes.

PN114

The next one was companies using PTO bank to pay injured workers for that first four days until the WorkCover accepts their claims and so forth. What we have been saying is that you shouldn't be touching the PTO accounts because it's the individual's account and those four days - I'm only asking for people injured on site, I'm not asking for someone who's carried on that's played football over the week-end or so forth - it's only for people that have actually been injured on site where there shouldn't be any real challenge to it; is that that four days should be paid by Bechtel, and if for some unknown reason that that gets challenged by WorkCover and it fails, well that's when Bechtel should come back to the individual and take it out of their - you know, request it comes out of their final payment or what ever we generally do.

PN115

THE COMMISSIONER: But what are you talking about there?

PN116

MR CHAMBERS: Well, the PTO, out on this site we don't get - it's a different system - we have PTO arrangements where there is a weekly payment put into the bank that covers your public holidays, your annual leave and your sick leave. The outcome is that at the end of the project what ever sick leave that you have you get paid out. That's the system out there that we have.

PN117

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, what's the difference of that being paid at the time that it's found that maybe they won't cover them?

PN118

MR CHAMBERS: Well, the members don't believe it should be used for that without their consent.

PN119

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay.

PN120

MR CHAMBERS: As you know, Commissioner, when you get into the compensation, into the Workcover, some of things can drag on, drag out. No one works about the turbine deck level. That's really the main first level when the alimacs - that's the lifts - are not in working order or they have closed down for the day, or we have an electricity fall out. And that again, has been an issue over a long period of time.

PN121

THE COMMISSIONER: Has it been resolved?

PN122

MR CHAMBERS: Well, it's never going to be resolved because what we say is, Commissioner, that for us to go up there we have got to be assured that somebody can get us down, and if there is a crane available and a safety box - which was another issue a fair while ago, that we ended up with specified safety boxes - that are left there and made available at all times. But, Commissioner, some times the cranes are tied up with loads for a number of hours and so forth, and there's no way of getting people down unless there's a crane available, because you are talking about a fair height to the boiler. Unless there's a crane available with a box there, it's pretty hard to get access to people without climbing three hundred feet up in the air.

PN123

THE COMMISSIONER: Are talks continuing on that question?

PN124

MR CHAMBERS: Talks are continuing, yes, until last week when they all stopped, the other day. Again, the emergency boxes that we - through one of the early disputes - Bechtel brought these boxes on site and they have got signs on them, but again, if you walk around the site some times they are full of gear or rubbish, or what ever else, and we are saying that they should all be left there and made available for emergency only, and Bechtel have now agreed to that. Again, they will put different colours on them and signs on them to make sure that happens.

PN125

Workers on light duties who work overtime through the week, one guy wasn't able to work on Saturdays, and he is saying well, if he can go back on light duties which is always a question with the employees and employer with his rehabs and all of the things that we do today where people go back on the job instead of sitting at home with their injuries, they are saying if they can work overtime through the week, they should be able to work on week-ends, and really with the decision the other day that has now been granted within reason.

PN126

There was an accident the other week between a tractor and trailer and a ute, where they were bringing a wide load up from the storage yards, and the troops are saying that again the accident shouldn't have happened, we all know that, no accidents should happen, but there should have been people there like we have on the highways, to make sure that no-one would see the thin plates of steel that were overlapping the trailer and the ute ran into them. Well, we are saying that it is okay for us all now and come to a conclusion that it should be different, but they are saying well, again, someone could have got killed, and there should have been lights on it, or somebody making sure that nobody was going to come over the slight hill, and drive into the steel.

PN127

And, Commissioner, that was that first meeting, and on Thursday we went back to Bechtel, and we did get some questions and answers which I haven't got a copy of, but most of the questions was answered, but there was some questions that weren't answered to the members' satisfaction. So from that meeting the other day, once the overtime was granted on the Saturday, the troops said they would go back to work, and part of their motion was that I would report back with all the other answers on this week, Wednesday morning this week.

PN128

So, of course, I went aside to do that, and of course that is when the insulation issue occurred because out there at Millmerran at the moment, it is okay for people to say that there is a - for the Government to say there is a buffer zone of three metres, but when you are three hundred feet up in the air, that buffer zone doesn't count for much, and with this stuff, I go back to when I worked on the Gladstone Power Station, we have always had issues over these rockwools, or fibreglass, whatever we call this insulation. When we get to this stage of the project, I don't think there has been a boiler house built in Queensland where we haven't had some issues where people have been concerned about the health outcomes from it.

PN129

And, of course, if you are talking to a group of workers, they say, yes Frank you come and tell us all these stories, you show us the documents, but are you going to be around in 30 years like asbestos was, and live with the consequences. So when they say that to you at mass meetings, it doesn't matter what you answer, you are not going to answer them correctly, to their satisfaction. So the other day they came up with - and this wasn't locked in I don't believe, but their claim was that we enclose it fully, that means we put the scaffolds around, the scaffolds are all there. Then we put some plastic around to stop the breeze and stop the lagging from falling over the hand rails and so forth, and don't forget, Commissioner, these boilers are high and everybody is working underneath each other. So whatever you drop up there, you share with your fellow workers down below.

PN130

So it is fairly hard for us to get up, whether it is Ian McCombe or myself, or Marina or anybody else, in front of 600 hundred people at a mass meeting and say don't worry about it, it won't hurt you. I understand it, because we have been around a fair while with it, but it is very hard to get that across to people, so the workers told us to go up and talk to Bechtel about doing it differently, performing the work differently, and enclosing it more, plus they asked for paper overalls, or the option of paper overalls, I understand, about the five sets of clothing, but some of the laggers there were asking for the option of paper overalls as they use on some other projects. The PT masks were asked for and plus they wanted more information about - they call it MSDAs on the rockwool or fibreglass, that they can understand it more. Or what Mr Watson said before, is that some of this literature the workers aren't convinced after they read some of it, that it won't create cancer down the - thirty years down the track.

PN131

The other issue that come up the other day was again, which has been raised on a few occasions, is supervisors working. They would like us to talk to Bechtel about that. They also up there lately, Commissioner, because - - -

PN132

THE COMMISSIONER: And have you spoken to Bechtel about it yet?

PN133

MR CHAMBERS: No, Commissioner. Because they refused to talk to us the other day while our people were sitting outside the crib room but they were still on site. Up there on that site, Commissioner, because we are hard changing construction, the guys now have to hook up, they have all these harnesses and everything else, and over the last few weeks quite a few of our members have been getting red warnings or final written warnings for not being hooked up, and that is fair enough, I am supporting that, Commissioner.

PN134

But what they are seeing on the side is double standards, and they always bring these up at mass meetings, that they see managers and supervisors hanging out by the short and curly and nothing hooked up, and they don't get warnings or all the rest of it. So all the workers are saying was it would set a better example, they accept that they have got to be cautioned and warned, but they believe that supervisors should get similar, and they have mentioned some names, and I will raise them because they asked us to, they are saying that Scott Harrington whoever he is, one of the supervisors, was talking to his superintendent the other day and he is hanging outside the scaffold in front of everybody, and nothing happened. And they did raise some of these issues before the meeting.

PN135

Again they asked me how did I get on - that they weren't happy with my answer on back pay for those Saturday meal breaks. Again they had some more issues with how the safety personnel on site talked to the individuals when they go up there with their headaches and their sore arms and their muscles and so forth, and the advice they give them. Again they brought the issue up about working above the turbine floor without the safety boxes being - sitting there in a crane available in case somebody gets hurt. Again they raised another one about Jim Francisco, he must be one of the supervisors, he took the signs off one of these safety boxes the other day and used it for lifting equipment.

PN136

And again, they raised the issues over the IPT team which we have been to the Commission before about, that they still don't believe they have enough faith in it, and they asked me to go back to Bechtel with three extra names, we already have two people on that committee, Ray Carroll and Peter Black. The other day they put up two - three more people, Biff which the only - I know him by, Glen Osborne and Peter Perrott, and they believe that if I am successful getting those three people into the system, that they will have more faith in people in that safety team.

PN137

Again they are saying, even though Bechtel put out a bulletin again the other day about work in SDOs, after their discussions with Marina and myself, and they believe it is very simple that if we don't get paid Saturday rates we don't work 80 hours. Or up there it is called scheduled days off, SDOs. And again they asked me at the finish of course as they normally do, because they think we are fairly good, is that they ask us to get paid for all the time we lost. So Commissioner, we went back into Bechtel trying to raise those issues the other day, and I will admit when I am involved, Bechtel generally do talk to us, because I believe while the guys are on site, even though they are sitting there not working, I believe I am still sticking to the procedure as best as I can on that site, in those circumstances, when you have got 650 members that have got a lot of issues.

PN138

I went back to Bechtel. We sat there for about two or three hours, and then they came out and read out a one page document to us, to myself and the delegates, which was very simple. It said if you don't go back to work we are not talking to you. And again, as I said before in the past, Bechtel have always found ways around these issues, and lets talk and try and get them back on the job. This time they didn't, so Commissioner, at the end of the time I had to go back out and report because they had been sitting there for three hours, and of course as soon as I told them that we were in a catch 22, we either go back or Bechtel don't talk to us, so they decided to give me until Tuesday morning to have some discussions with Bechtel and solve all these issues, Commissioner. That is about where we are, Commissioner.

PN139

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, going on what you have said, some of those issues that seem to have been resolved, if not an ongoing discussion process itself that is set up for them, what are the main issues then that need to be resolved by the troops, and bearing in mind that you have got so many of the workforce out there, and each one will have their own individual gripe, no doubt, but not every one of those is going to be resolved, and they have to accept that fact.

PN140

MR CHAMBERS: That is correct, Commissioner.

PN141

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, what are the major issues they see blocking their return to work.

PN142

MR CHAMBERS: I believe the main ones are the ones that I was trying to raise the other day when nobody would sit down and have a chat to me, was the insulation - - -

PN143

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay.

PN144

MR CHAMBERS: - - - we needed that, that was the key one.

PN145

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that has already been raised by Mr Watson, because they believed it's probably a key one, yes.

PN146

MR CHAMBERS: The supervisors working, they are all those little ones, the Scott Harrington thing, I think that is fairly important if it did occur, because - - -

PN147

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that is a matter that has been drawn to the company's attention, that is a matter for the company to take up with the supervisory ranks. If you have got rules and regulations there, the very top echelon need to follow them as well, if you are involved in the same work.

PN148

MR CHAMBERS: I agree with you, Commissioner. Back pay for Saturday, I can't find an answer for that one because it is fairly hard for myself to do an audit of the books and work out who got paid and who didn't get paid, because they are paid breaks we are talking about.

PN149

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that is an impossible situation to try and resolve?

PN150

MR CHAMBERS: They are still asking for payment of those days, Commissioner.

PN151

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, but if you have got an impossible situation, how can you do it?

PN152

MR CHAMBERS: Well, Commissioner, it is okay for you and I to discuss it like that, but - - -

PN153

THE COMMISSIONER: I know, but I mean how - well, what I am saying is you are going to have to explore ways and means of venting these people. But it is just impossible to do that, unless they are prepared to make a contribution themselves to it.

PN154

MR CHAMBERS: Well, there is another way, Commissioner, if Bechtel - because it was up from some time in March this year that we decided - or April - that we decided we wouldn't do it, and it has been an ongoing thing, is that it's only for people who worked eight hours or more on the Saturday - - -

PN155

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN156

MR CHAMBERS: - - - that were entitled to the rates. If Bechtel were willing to pay some sort of a payment for - because we know - Bechtel must know who worked on those Saturdays; they must know also who worked eight hours on those Saturdays before April, that we'd come to some sort of arrangement. I believe that's the only way that will go away.

PN157

THE COMMISSIONER: What, averaging situation? Averaging situation for everybody?

PN158

MR CHAMBERS: Only the people who worked on those Saturdays, eight hours or more. I don't think that there's a lot of people, Commissioner. I don't think there's that many people involved.

PN159

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. All right.

PN160

MR CHAMBERS: The one about how the safety people had their talk to individuals. That has been raised on every site and all the way through this project. And because none of us are there, witnessing these discussions - they are generally one off - but they are raised every time that they were forced to do this or forced to do that or given the wrong advice or what ever else. So all we can do is keep reporting those back to Bechtel, and Bechtel need to come back to us and give us some explanation. Have they spoken to their safety people out there? Their nurse or paramedics or what ever else about how they are talking to individuals.

PN161

The June Francisco thing; I don't think that's a big issue, because Bechtel have agreed now that they - - -

PN162

THE COMMISSIONER: No, well look, what I'm after here is the major issues, so we can tackle those. You know, things that are ongoing and being talked about - - -

PN163

MR CHAMBERS: Well, the IPT team's a very important one, Commissioner, because really, nothing will work out there safety-wise unless everybody's got total support of it, you know. And I think if it's safety, I think we should be putting more effort into that one. We've come up with three extra names; because Bechtel haven't spoken to us since then, so I believe Bechtel should respond to that in a positive way. That would be a great thing for us to go back and report on Tuesday morning; that that's been agreed to.

PN164

And the work on the SDOs is very simple, Commissioner. It's not a big issue now, because the troops have got to stand up for themselves. If they don't get paid Saturday rate, they don't work. So Commissioner, that's where we are; it's really the insulation, the safety issues and the IPT team. They are, I believe, the key ones.

PN165

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Do you want to add anything, Mr McCombe, at this stage?

PN166

MR McCOMBE: I've not got a lot to say, Commissioner. We're sort of caught up in the incidents that happened with the cleaning and the other issues that some of our members had problems coming to grips with that, and that's where we ended up. And you have seen the resolution that they have put forward. So I really don't have a lot more to say. That's our - probably our major issue is how to resolve it in the future.

PN167

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Yes, okay, it's the future situation you are saying? Well, you know, I think it takes two to tango, so I think you need to talk to your people about making some suggestions themselves, rather than expecting them to only come from one side. But anyway, let's deal with the larger issues at the present time. I think the parties - we've narrowed them down to some ..... and I think the parties should talk about those issues and see if they can resolve them, and what I will do is make available an area for talk and if need be break up into different groups as well, to look at those issues. We've certainly narrowed them down, I think.

PN168

It's what we had originally, there's a bit list been put up. Nonetheless you have got these other issues and I think they have still got to be looked at, but they are issues I think that will bring about an immediate return to work. It's insulation, as I understand it, although it seems to me that if the proper safety procedures laid out by the regulations are being followed, unless there's peculiar circumstances existing on the site that do not cater for that situation, then I think the safety regulations probably should prevail. But that's a matter for the parties to talk about.

PN169

The IPT; well, that's simply an issue of talking about it and see whether that can be resolved, and some of those safety issues, I think, have got to be looked at. But in terms of the supervisors doing work and not following safety procedures as the rest of the employees are expected to do, I think that's for management to look at; it's a management problem. You have got to stress somewhere along the line to these people; they are supervisors and, you know, you are the ones who set the example.

PN170

Anyway, my associate will provide you with an area to talk about it and I'll keep a watch on it during the period. As you are well aware, I have got other matters on this morning, but I will break off those matters as needed, and talk to the parties. So all you need to do is signal my associate through the Registry that you need from me and I will be available. This Commission will stand adjourned while the parties are in conference.

OFF THE RECORD [8.50am]

RESUMED [5.02pm]

PN171

THE COMMISSIONER: I have taken the unusual course to have this matter recorded on transcript. At this stage the parties are not present, but they are aware, at least up to the position that the Commission is adopting. At the end of further talks with the parties in conference, it is hopeful we will reach a position where the Commission is able to make a recommendation. I'm not at that position right now, but due to the time of the day, I have taken this course to allow the court reporting staff time to leave, rather than remain to whatever hour we may go through to this evening to try and settle this matter.

PN172

In saying that, it is my intention that if we are able to reach a resolution in the form of an agreement which the Commission is prepared to recommend to the parties, then I will make arrangements for that recommendation to be recorded into transcript, and that will be forwarded to the transcript reporting service as soon as possible after we have reached that position. It may have to be Monday, due to the fact that we are now right on the week-end.

PN173

This, as I said, is done to allow the court reporting staff to leave and not necessarily have to hang around to all hours. It also allows the parties to have something - views to be recorded in transcript, and it allows a position to be finalised in terms of settlement. The court reporting service will receive the recommendation, if indeed we are able to reach that situation tonight, as soon as possible thereafter. This Commission is adjourned.

PN174

It has been pointed out to me that I made a position that the matter had been adjourned. That, in fact, is not the position. The matter is now back in conference again between the parties, and the parties will be informed of what is now on record.

OFF THE RECORD [5.05pm]

NO FURTHER PROCEEDINGS RECORDED

THE FOLLOWING RECOMMENDATION WAS HANDED DOWN BY COMMISSIONER JONES ON SATURDAY, 28 JULY 2001

TRANSCRIBED BUT NOT RECORDED BY
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD

RECOMMENDATION

PN175

(1) These matters were lodged as section 99 notifications of industrial disputes by Bechtel Australia Pty Ltd (the company), pursuant to the Workplace Relations Act 1996 (the Act). The named respondents are the Australian Workers' Union and the Automotive, Food, Metals, Engineering, Printing and Kindred Industries Union (the unions or known specifically where appropriate as (AWU) or (AMWU)).

PN176

(2) The Commission has now had the benefit of being involved with the parties in all day discussions. This has resulted in the Commission being able to reach what I believe is an improved understanding of the overall dispute issues between the parties.

PN177

(3) One of the concerns expressed by the company is the non-adherence by employees to the dispute settling procedure available to the parties through their enterprise agreements. The Commission accepts the validity of these concerns and notes the ignoring of previous recommendations of this Commission to follow the disputes settling procedure and the company is aware of other options available. Almost the reverse approach has come from the employees, where such adherence on their part is viewed as in the end, not achieving much improvement towards settlement of issues. The Commission, however, reminds both parties that the whole point of dispute settling procedures is to ensure the maintenance of both income and productivity for the respective groups. It also has, as is happening right now, steps within which relate to the Commission's role in the loop. That is, before any precipitative action is found necessary or undertaken by either side which could circumvent an orderly process, the Commission should be notified.

PN178

(4) It has to be also recognised that at times it may become extremely difficult for all parties to handle individual problems on a collective basis. Therefore there is a need for this to be considered by both sides when entering into any discussions.

PN179

(5) The Commission further understands that some issues which have been raised today were previously resolved between the parties on site and therefore are no longer considered a requirement for this Commission to address. The Commission's view is that the parties have already set up an orderly mechanism.

PN180

(6) Having said all this, and in conjunction with what is outlined further below, the Commission strongly recommends that on Tuesday, 31 July 2001, all employees and members of the unions return to work and that there be no further stoppages undertaken without the Commission's prior involvement. After a return to work on Tuesday, 31 July 2001, the parties are to commence meaningful, good faith discussions on site and the Commission undertakes to actively monitor the progress of those discussions and at the same time reminds the parties of their individual rights to ultimately return to this Commission to resolve any outstanding issues. In this regard, the Commission urges the unions to also differentiate wherever possible what has been mentioned above as individual and collective issues.

PN181

(7) As a result of these three day long discussions, there are specifically three further issues which the Commission sees as in need of attention by the parties. The Commission therefore makes the following Recommendation which encompasses those issues of:

PN182

(a) meal breaks;

PN183

(b) the issue relating to insulation; and

PN184

(c) the number of participants on the IPT (Incident Prevention Team).

PN185

(8) In respect to these three issues the Recommendations are:

Re: (a) Meal Breaks

PN186

(9) This matter concerns a situation where an individual or some individuals genuinely believe there is an underpayment. This is disputed by the company. Where this is allegedly occurring, however, the company should identify jointly with the unions the period for which the claim is said to exist. The company should then check the claim and meet with the unions to report the outcome of their investigations. This should be done within 10 working days of a return to work by all employees on 31 July 2001. Any discussions as a precursor should have as a requirement an orderly approach designed to fully and finally resolve the claim overall which may require the Commission's involvement.

Re: (b) Insulation

PN187

(10) The Commission recognises that the company is currently upon request providing paper overalls to employees engaged on the installation of insulation material in confined spaces and while installing overhead, and will continue to do so. If, however, the IPT on investigation finds some other procedural alteration or action may be needed, it will advise management appropriately.

PN188

(11) The company presently provides employees involved in installing insulation material with 5 pairs of clothing, laundered at the company's expense, P1 masks and, upon request, has and will continue to provide P2 respirators for those employees directly involved with the installation of the material.

PN189

(12) The Commission reminds the parties that the IPT has a role to play under the Workplace, Health and Safety Act 1995. The Commission requires the parties to utilise the IPT as the appropriate forum to gather information and advise management on workplace health and safety issues including, in this instance, insulation material. At the report back referred to at paragraph 18 the Commission will require information on what steps have been taken by the IPT on this matter.

PN190

(13) The Commission recommends that the unions and their members take advantage of the documentation on MSDSs and JHAs that have already been developed by the employees in consultation with the company and that any reasonable requests for copies will be met by the company. Any reasonable requests for explanation of these documents will be made by the company.

Re: (c) IPT Membership

PN191

(14) Although the Commission has been advised by the unions that they require an increase to the composition numbers of the IPT(3), the Commission nonetheless recommends that the IPT is the appropriate forum to consider its composition. To this end, the Commission recommends that the IPT convene a meeting within 5 working days of the return to work to address this.

Additional Items

PN192

(15) Additionally, the union (AWU) advised that employees have expressed concerns over some other items. The company has given answers to them.

PN193

(16) The Commission is of the view that if there arises a dispute in relation to those respective items not being complied with by either management and/or the employees, then the parties will follow the disputes settling procedure set out in their enterprise agreements and of course, if not resolved, the matter shall be referred to the Commission for hearing without recourse to industrial action.

PN194

(17) The Commission also recommends that the company and employees continue to follow Commissioner Grainger's recommendation dated 12 June 2001, relating to the urgent work position by those employees who remain at work during industrial action undertaken by other employees, and being mindful of the company's obligations to them, particularly in regard to workplace health and safety responsibilities, accept bona fide alternative services which the company has arranged.

PN195

(18) As a result of this recommendation, the Commission will require during the week commencing 6 August 2001 a report back by all parties involved of the progress to date. The Commission will advise the actual time and day this will be scheduled for and wherever possible will endeavour to make this suitable to the parties.

PN196

BY THE COMMISSION

PN197

COMMISSIONER