C2001/3011, Transcript of Proceedings [2001] AIRCTrans 2060 (23 August 2001)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 2, 16 St George's Tce, PERTH WA 6000
Tel:[phone] Fax:[phone]

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

DEPUTY PRESIDENT LEARY

C2001/3011

APPLICATION FOR CONSENT AWARD

Application under section 111 of the Act
by Skywest Airlines Pty Ltd and the
Transport Workers Union of Australia
for a consent award

PERTH

11.11 AM, MONDAY 6 AUGUST 2001

PN1

MR J.A. LONG: I seek leave to appear for Skywest Airlines Pty Limited in this matter.

PN2

MR N.J. HODGSON: I appear on behalf of the Transport Workers Union of Australia and with me is MR S. BELLAMY, he is a delegate of the Transport Workers Union.

PN3

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's a famous TWU name. No objection to Mr Long seeking leave?

PN4

MR HODGSON: No, Deputy President.

PN5

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Leave is granted. Before we start, we've just received a fax from the AFAP about this morning's proceedings and Sharon will give you each a copy of the letter and we will deal with that in due course. So who is going to speak to the application? Mr Long?

PN6

MR LONG: Thank you, Deputy President. This is an application for a new award by consent to cover Skywest Airlines pilots. Skywest Airlines operates regional airline services within Western Australia. The only aircraft it operates are F-50 aircraft and it employs some 40 pilots to fly these aircraft. All the Skywest Airline pilots presently have their wages and conditions determined by a certified agreement known as the Skywest Airlines Pty Limited Pilots Agreement 1999. That agreement was certified by the Commission on 16 December 1999 and does not expire until 1 July 2002.

PN7

The parties to that certified agreement are the Transport Workers Union of Australia and Skywest Airlines. As a matter of practice, the Skywest pilots have their own association known as the Skywest Airline Pilots Association or commonly known as SALPA.

PN8

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't know where you get SALPA from but don't tell me.

PN9

MR LONG: At least they are my instructions, Deputy President.

PN10

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. I will accept that.

PN11

MR LONG: The certified agreement is expressed to be comprehensive and so any award which underpins the agreement is a safety net award only. Until recently the relevant safety net award was a 1986 award known as the Skywest Airline Pty Limited Pilots Agreement of 1986. However, that award was recently cancelled by the Commission under the Award Simplification processes. SALPA and Skywest have been having discussions about the creation of an appropriate safety net award, Deputy President, for Skywest pilots, and those discussions have led to the drafting of the proposed award which is before you today.

PN12

In our respectful submission, the award is an appropriate safety net award and is consistent with section 89A principles of the Act. The Federal Secretary of the TWU has executed the appropriate statement of consent, which should be before the Commission this morning, to the making of the award and Clayton Utz has authority to consent on behalf of Skywest. In addition, the Commission should be aware that recently, as I'm instructed, a general meeting open to all SALPA pilots was held either by direct vote or by proxy where 39 out of the 40 pilots approved the making of the award. The other pilot did not vote, as I'm instructed.

PN13

So consistently with the Act, it's our respectful submission today that the award should be made and should be operative from today's date. We suggest that it should also be expressed to remain in force for a period of 3 years as stated in clause 3 of the proposed award. I don't propose to make any further submissions at this stage, Deputy President. I understand my friend Mr Hodgson is in a position to provide any further submissions or information that may be required by the Commission in relation to the level of consultation and agreement which has been reached.

PN14

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. I have a few questions. It's so long since I've made a new award - it's not something we do very often - but there are a couple of questions that I needed to ask you.

PN15

MR LONG: Yes.

PN16

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: One is, the award is a minimum rates award to underpin the current EBA, is that the procedure?

PN17

MR LONG: Yes, that's my understanding, Deputy President.

PN18

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Okay. It talks about the relation - clause 5, relationship to other industrial agreement. I think you just said that the Skywest Airline Pilots Award 1986 has been set aside and that's confirmed in the letter from the AFAP. Skywest are still respondent to the GA Award as I understand it and the GA Award still has some standing, I think?

PN19

MR LONG: Yes.

PN20

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right. It also says that:

PN21

This award replaces and supersedes any other applicable award.

PN22

Are there? Is there, that we know of?

PN23

MR LONG: Yes. Well, in relation to the safety net award issue, Deputy President, there was an agreement to cancel, as I'm instructed, the 1986 Award and at that time it was thought that the General Aviation Award might be considered an appropriate safety net award.

PN24

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right.

PN25

MR LONG: However, for two reasons, a review of that position resulted in the proposed award before the Commission today. The two reasons were as follows. They are, that is, the two reasons which caused the position to be reviewed. Firstly that the TWU is not a respondent to the General Aviation Award and secondly, that the General Aviation Award only covers aircraft up to a specified weight and the F-50 aircraft are above that weight. In other words, the General Aviation Award, Deputy President, simply does not allow or does not apply to the Skywest pilots and so in effect they are without a safety net award.

PN26

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: On the basis that the GA Award doesn't cover the F-50s?

PN27

MR LONG: Correct. And additionally because the TWU is not a named respondent to that award. So with those matters in view, Deputy President, it's our submission that the new award will in fact resolve that issue in an appropriate way.

PN28

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So the last sentence is really not necessary, is it, that it replaces any other applicable awards because we don't think there are any? I'm just trying to check out whether there are awards that we need to be aware of, that's all. My quick run-through of the awards seemed to indicate there wouldn't be another one.

PN29

MR LONG: I might just take a moment, Deputy President.

PN30

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right.

PN31

MR LONG: Yes. My understanding, Deputy President, is that the reason for that reference in draft clause 5 is because the new award was agreed prior to the cancellation of the other award that was referred to earlier.

PN32

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This new award was agreed to before the cancellation of the 86 award?

PN33

MR LONG: Yes. It's preceded the cancellation.

PN34

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. The other questions. Clause 12.1, it talks about CAO 48 and the last clause says that the award overrides any restrictions imposed by CAO 48. Can you do that? Can an award override a CAO ordinance? Well, if Mr Bellamy can tell me, please do.

PN35

MR LONG: I'm happy for Mr Bellamy to address that, Deputy President.

PN36

MR BELLAMY: What was meant before in that part was that any matters that were more restrictive in the award shall apply over and above of the base minimum conditions in CAO 48. The duty time limitations stated in there are maximums and can be worked to, whereas - - -

PN37

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But does it have to be done by dispensational concession?

PN38

MR BELLAMY: Anything that's greater than what is in the CAO 48, yeah, has to apply to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority for concession.

PN39

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. So you can't just put it into an award and then override?

PN40

MR BELLAMY: No. Nothing in the award that we've actually done. Most of the award is more limiting than CAO 48.

PN41

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right.

PN42

MR BELLAMY: So it's actually - the award is better for the pilots, rather than going - - -

PN43

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The other way?

PN44

MR BELLAMY: - - - to the maximum limit.

PN45

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. I'm sorry to do this to you.

PN46

MR LONG: I'm much obliged to Mr Bellamy.

PN47

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. The rates of pay. Classification salaries. I will admit to confusion to start with and needing of some clarification. I notice that there's a different sort of description of aircraft. It looks like it's based on seats. What I need to know is where the base salaries have come from and whether they are the minimum rates in the industry and if someone could tell me - you're getting this one too, are you?

PN48

MR BELLAMY: That's all right.

PN49

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The productivity payment is like an overtime payment.

PN50

MR BELLAMY: Okay. The construction there is very different to any other award that's before us before.

PN51

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. That's why I confessed to confusion.

PN52

MR BELLAMY: Yes. They're all based on weight categorisation and that's the reason that the GA award is not relevant to us. In the modern generation of aircraft, the 146 that flies around in WA - - -

PN53

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And in and out of Hobart regularly.

PN54

MR BELLAMY: Okay. Those aeroplanes, for a 70-seater, weigh in excess of 10 tonnes more than the equivalent 70-seater in the next generation or the more modern aircraft. So to classify a pay scale purely based on aircraft weight would mean that you would get a pay drop if you flew another aircraft, i.e. say the new kind of air-type aircraft.

PN55

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The CRJs?

PN56

MR BELLAMY: The CRJs.

PN57

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yeah. I'm familiar with all these small aircraft, you know.

PN58

MR BELLAMY: The CRJ itself and things like that are much lighter, they're made to just efficiencies.

PN59

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You wouldn't like to hear my story on CRJs which has got nothing to do with this, but I hate them. But go on.

PN60

MR BELLAMY: I will pass that on to the management.

PN61

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Don't worry, they know.

PN62

MR BELLAMY: Yes. We're not a great lover of them here either. So we felt we had to move forward with this document to show a structure for the company, a basis of where they can start to plan based on seats. Seats are a direct revenue on cost.

PN63

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I'm aware of that.

PN64

MR BELLAMY: Most of our mathematical modellings are done on average seat kilometre costs so it's a basis there. We're just bringing the awards into light with common accounting practice. The structure for the groupings, the bottom group there for the lowest seat, 19 to 36, is based around a present operation in the group and on their average pay structures.

PN65

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So the reference to band 1, 2, 3 and 4, is that the reference in the - - -

PN66

MR BELLAMY: That's it. The band 1, 2, 3 and 4 are then the seat classifications.

PN67

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see. So it's a new descriptor altogether.

PN68

MR BELLAMY: That's it, yes.

PN69

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. I follow that.

PN70

MR BELLAMY: And so we have the three levels in each band. Band 1 at the bottom, sorry, which way around? Just trying to remember which way around we wrote it. Yes. Band 1 at the bottom is the lower aircraft, up to 36 seats low capacity. The base rates of pay there were taken from a present-day salaries paid and the safety net minimum.

PN71

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So they've come from what, from the agreement or from - - -

PN72

MR BELLAMY: They've come from another agreement inside the group that they look at and used in their cost modelling. Band 2 is where we - - -

PN73

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What sort of aircraft are they?

PN74

MR BELLAMY: SAABs. SAAB 340, Metro, if we put an extra seat in. Things like that. Dash 8s. The band 2, the 37 to 50 seats, is a direct Fokker-50 and the pay rates there, the top line, the level 3 salary and across the board is exactly what we are now presently paid.

PN75

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's under the agreement?

PN76

MR BELLAMY: That's under the agreement. And so is no lower. We've moved from an 8th year structure of pay as common in most aviation awards to a 3-year skill-based promotional grade. So we've now seen a change there with the minimum pay rate still being the minimum that they could expect to achieve under our agreement.

PN77

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right. So somebody coming in on the F-50 at the first level would be 77?

PN78

MR BELLAMY: As a captain, yes.

PN79

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And then they go up to 85?

PN80

MR BELLAMY: Yes. And that's it, and then move their way through.

PN81

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: 784.

PN82

MR BELLAMY: And that's why they're odd numbers is because they are the present numbers, the present pay rates as per the '99 certified agreement.

PN83

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay.

PN84

MR BELLAMY: Then we move to the next band which would be 146 type aircraft or the bigger CRJs. Those figures are based around our direct competition and looking at what's being paid in the market place.

PN85

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So their market rates are not minimum rates?

PN86

MR BELLAMY: They were market rates but the company and us have all agreed, they would be our minimum rate and they are the minimum. And then the top rates.

PN87

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So the 146s you would look at are Southern or whatever it's called today, Qantas Link or whatever it is now.

PN88

MR BELLAMY: Yes. Qantas Link now. National Jet rates there as a direct comparison.

PN89

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN90

MR BELLAMY: And then the top rates in the band 4 is based around the 737 style of aircraft and is based on what Virgin and people like that currently pay and what our pilots agreed to be a fair and equitable wage as a bare minimum for that job.

PN91

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. So that explains that.

PN92

MR BELLAMY: Yes.

PN93

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The next column is a productivity payment and then when you do 59 hours over a 28-day period there is a - can I see that as an overtime payment or an additional payment?

PN94

MR BELLAMY: It's a form of overtime payment, yes. It's the same as it is in the Ansett Pilots Agreement - Pilots Award. It is a productivity-based pay increase. The 59-hour ratio was developed by Skywest about 6 or 7 years to actually crew to a lesser level, and so it is an overtime based pay but purely based on productivity.

PN95

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. It's additional hours for which you get an hourly rate payment.

PN96

MR BELLAMY: That's it, yes.

PN97

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I worked that out.

PN98

MR BELLAMY: And that's what it comes for there.

PN99

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. The only other question as clarification. We talk about temporary pilots. Can I read casual? Because I notice they get - I think it's a loading and they don't get any annual leave sick leave and so forth.

PN100

MR BELLAMY: They don't. Casual and temporary has different connotations to us.

PN101

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Does it?

PN102

MR BELLAMY: Of what is casual to the way they came in. They were called temporary because we envisaged under our present agreement they would be employed for a specific term and contract there, so they are a temporary as such.

PN103

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. But their conditions of employment as to payment are similar to a casual employee?

PN104

MR BELLAMY: Yes.

PN105

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: They don't accrue any entitlement.

PN106

MR BELLAMY: No.

PN107

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And they get - is it a 20 per cent loading on top of the daily rate?

PN108

MR BELLAMY: They get 20 per cent, yes.

PN109

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, okay.

PN110

MR BELLAMY: That's correct.

PN111

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's all right. It's just for clarification. You can call it whatever you like as long as I understand what it's meant to be. Okay. That was all of my questions as to clarifying it. The only difficulty that I have is with the rates of pay, because to make a new award it's got to be minimum rates and I will have to go back and check the other awards, but that's something I will come to terms with somehow. All right. Did you have anything else you want to put to me?

PN112

MR LONG: Not at this stage, Deputy President. I note that your associate has handed to me a copy of a letter from Mr Terry O'Connell in the Australian Federation of Air Pilots, dated 6 August 2001. It's difficult to make any meaningful submission at this early stage in relation to the matters raised there simply for want of any detailed instructions at this time, Deputy President.

PN113

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I understand.

PN114

MR LONG: However, it seems to me that the important part of this communication is point 5. I'm sorry, the final sentence which reads, and I quote:

PN115

In light of the above, the Federation requests that it be a party to the above matter and have the opportunity to be heard before the matter is progressed.

PN116

Insofar as this might be considered to be an informal application of some description by the AFAP, can I respectfully suggest that what ought to happen this morning is that the consent award application ought simply to follow its course as we've suggested in our earlier submissions to the extent that the AFAP considers that it may have some application to make in due course. Well, of course, that's a matter for the AFAP which you may or may not hear from at some future time.

PN117

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, although they say they have got a member and principal officer of the Federation, I don't quite know what that means - is a pilot with Skywest, I presume that means. So we can't ignore it. We will have to deal with it in some way.

PN118

MR LONG: Yes. Although as I've said in summary, Deputy President, in our submission, there is sufficient material before you this morning to allow the matter to proceed based on the agreement which the parties have reached.

PN119

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Thank you.

PN120

MR LONG: Thank you.

PN121

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Hodgson?

PN122

MR HODGSON: Deputy President, on behalf of the TWU we would endorse the submissions made by Mr Long representing the company. We say that the proposed award is consistent with the Act and request that the award be certified with an operative date from today's date. The background of this matter is that some years ago, the Skywest pilots approached the Transport Workers Union for representation. There's been adequate consultation with Skywest pilots in terms of what has been proposed here. In fact, there was a special meeting held on July 14 this year, an open meeting to all Skywest pilots with appropriate notices put around the workplace where these matters were discussed. I think there were three options put at that meeting. It was whether to simplify the '86 Award.

PN123

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It seems from Mr O'Connell's letter, that was causing some problems.

PN124

MR HODGSON: Yes. Well, it seems that they are problems in terms of classifications and also the TWU are not a party to that award, I believe. And there are another two options but essentially, Deputy President, what was decided at that meeting and overwhelmingly endorsed at that meeting was that the Skywest pilots and - the Skywest airline, sorry, and the TWU approached the Commission to certify a new award and I actually attended that meeting and that was overwhelmingly endorsed by the membership.

PN125

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think Mr Long said it was 39 out of the 40.

PN126

MR HODGSON: 39 out of 40, so other than that, Deputy President, no further comment.

PN127

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. And you have a large number of the employees as members now of the TWU, do you, is that the case?

PN128

MR HODGSON: That's correct.

PN129

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right.

PN130

MR HODGSON: 39 out of 40, I'm advised, Deputy President.

PN131

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are members?

PN132

MR HODGSON: Are members. Thank you.

PN133

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Can I just go back again to the rates of pay, Mr Bellamy, I think, you will have to answer this again. The rates that are in the award, are they the rates that are, where it's applicable, are they the rates that are being paid by the agreement?

PN134

MR BELLAMY: Where applicable.

PN135

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: If you're only flying your F50s the rate in here for the F50 which is band 2, is the rate that's currently applying under the EBA.

PN136

MR BELLAMY: Yes, that's correct.

PN137

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right, okay.

PN138

MR BELLAMY: Now.

PN139

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And the rest are - you've looked at the industry generally?

PN140

MR BELLAMY: Yes and just as I said, picked them as minimums of what we would be there and then renegotiating through later.

PN141

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, there's a difference between what's a minimum rate, according to the Commission and what's a minimum paid out in the market place and that's what I have to come to terms with, but I'm sure that that will not be too difficult, I can make my way around that. Did you want to add anything else Mr Long?

PN142

MR LONG: No thank you.

PN143

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, what I propose to do is to adjourn the matter and consider what's before me, I do have to look at the rates of pay and that's an exercise in researching some other documents and I will deal with that as quickly as I can. I also propose to recognise the AFAPs letter. In respect to that, what I will do is make available to them a copy of the document and a copy of today's transcript and I will give them 14 days to respond. Both of you, of course, will then have the right to respond to whatever it is that they put. I am aware that they have constitutional coverage of pilots, I'm not too sure what the letter means and I would need to have that clarified, which I am sure they will do.

PN144

So, on that basis I will adjourn the proceedings and consider what's put. If at the end of all of that, there is no difficulty and the rates that are in the award are currently being paid, it really doesn't make much difference to the pilots and that would be my concern that they were going to be disadvantaged, but it would appear to me that we are dealing with a safety net award. They will continue to receive the rates and conditions as per the agreement, so there will not be any disadvantage to them. So, in that case I will adjourn and subject to the AFAP responding and then your right of response back to them, a decision will issue.

PN145

MR LONG: Just prior to that Deputy President, do I take it from your comments then that independent of the response that may be forthcoming from the AFAP, that assuming you've clarified the position in relation to the classification structure - - -

PN146

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The rates of pay, yes.

PN147

MR LONG: - - - an order would issue in respect of a new award in so far as it applies to both the TWU and the employer.

PN148

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN149

MR LONG: Yes.

PN150

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I need to just make sure that the rates are minimum rates for the purpose of the Commission's principles and that will take a little bit of research I suppose and the other issue is giving the Federation the opportunity to be heard. But other than that I have no difficulty with the document now that it's been clarified and I can understand it and I presume the pilots can understand it. That's important.

PN151

MR LONG: In terms of the likely issuing of the Consent Award, then Deputy President do I take it that that would be some time over the course of the next - - -

PN152

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: If I give the - subject to reserving the transcript, if I give the Federation 14 days and then perhaps once I've got their response, you another 7 days. There may be nothing that you want to respond to, there may be something that you need to address.

PN153

MR LONG: Yes, is there any reason, Deputy President, why the Consent Award, subject to clarification on the classification issue, why the Consent Award would not issue in its present form?

PN154

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, because I've got to see what the Federation want to put to me.

PN155

MR LONG: Yes, okay.

PN156

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But I don't have any difficulty with the document. I can't ignore their interest in the matter at this stage. The document itself I have no problems with, other than clarifying the rates of pay. So subject to what they put it may be that their objections, if that is what they are going to be, don't have any weight.

PN157

MR LONG: Yes.

PN158

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It may be that they do and we have to deal with it in a different way.

PN159

MR LONG: Yes.

PN160

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So I really can't answer you.

PN161

MR LONG: No. In terms of the way the process might unfold, our submission would be, Deputy President, that it would be in order, subject to clarifying the classification issue, that the Consent Award, binding the TWU and the company, ought to issue at that point in any event. I don't hear from the AFAP's, or don't see from the AFAP's application this morning any objection to that course. It seems to me, from their point of view at least, more an issue about whether or not they ought to be made a party to - - -

PN162

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Maybe you read more into it than I do, I'm keeping a very broad, open mind at the moment, it could be a whole range of things.

PN163

MR LONG: I'm just a little bit concerned, I guess from the company's point of view, to ensure that the safety net arrangements, can be put into place as soon as possible.

PN164

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, if that concern is about pilots maintaining their conditions of employment, they're well and truly covered by the EBA, so there's no concern there.

PN165

MR LONG: Yes.

PN166

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Whatever their other reasons are I don't want to know about at the moment.

PN167

MR LONG: All right. As I say I'm not sure what the linkage might be between a possible application, I don't know if that's what the AFAP has in mind.

PN168

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN169

MR LONG: But to conclude, Deputy President, we would be keen to - subject to clarification of the classification issue to have the matter dealt with at that point.

PN170

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, certainly.

PN171

MR LONG: The AFAP to be allowed to do what they consider they ought to do, in due course.

PN172

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Indeed. I mean if they have a member, or some members, they have a right to be heard and I'm not going to deny them that, of course. But subject to what it is that they're seeking, needs to be clarified and until that's done, I really am not in a position to agree the Consent Award. Certainly it will be done as quickly as possible.

PN173

MR LONG: Thank you.

PN174

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I'm conscious of the issues and I'm satisfied that the pilots are covered with their wages and conditions in the interim.

PN175

MR LONG: Yes.

PN176

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The only issue is the safety net that's underpinning that and I don't think that should raise any issues, certainly within the next few weeks. If it does, I will see you again. But I can't see that happening. All right, on that basis I will reserve a decision, I will give the AFAP 14 days to respond and then you will have a right of response as will Mr Hodgson to that.

PN177

MR LONG: Thank you.

PN178

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: On that basis this matter's adjourned and the Commission adjourns.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [11.38am]