C2001/1978, Transcript of Proceedings [2001] AIRCTrans 2244 (4 September 2001)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 10, MLC Court 15 Adelaide St BRISBANE Qld 4000
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER HODDER

C2001/1978

L. WATERHOUSE AND M. EDWARDS

and

ANSETT AUSTRALIA

Application under section 170LW of the Act
for settlement of dispute concerning back pay
of superannuation

BRISBANE

10.36 AM, TUESDAY, 7 AUGUST 2001

Continued from 20.7.01

PN1102

THE COMMISSIONER: Are the appearances the same, or have they changed?

PN1103

MS K. PARKIN: No, Commissioner. I am an industrial officer with the ASU. Unfortunately, Ms Justo has been involved in a serious car accident yesterday and is unable to attend today. Unfortunately, I'm not party to any of this in the past, and I've brought some of the information with me, if I can assist you, but at this stage have no instructions from the ASU.

PN1104

THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. Ms Moore, you're representing Ansett again?

PN1105

MS J. MOORE: Yes, I am, Commissioner.

PN1106

THE COMMISSIONER: And you're accompanied by?

PN1107

MS MOORE: Mr Rennie.

PN1108

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Rennie, that's right. And Ms Waterhouse and Ms Edwards, you're continuing your appearances?

PN1109

MS L. WATERHOUSE: Yes, Commissioner.

PN1110

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Now, I received what has been headed as a submission dated 6 August under the hand of Misses Waterhouse and Edwards. Has Ansett seen that?

PN1111

MS MOORE: No, Commissioner.

PN1112

THE COMMISSIONER: Could you just give a copy of that to Ansett, please, and also one to the ASU representative, if you have one. I might just give both Ms Parkin and - well, perhaps Ms Parkin could read mine. I'll just give you a few minutes to read that.

PN1113

MS PARKIN: Thanks, Commissioner.

PN1114

MS MOORE: Excuse me, Commissioner - would it be possible for us just to take a five minute break so we can discuss this detail?

PN1115

THE COMMISSIONER: Sure. I'll adjourn for five minutes to allow the parties to read that document.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [10.39am]

RESUMED [10.48am]

PN1116

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Now, has everybody had a chance to read that document?

PN1117

MS MOORE: Yes, thank you, Commissioner.

PN1118

THE COMMISSIONER: Now, Ms Parkin, I take it you had a chance to read it. Now you might have some understanding of why this matter has been before this Commission on about four different occasions.

PN1119

MS PARKIN: I do have some understanding, Commissioner. Unfortunately, I don't look after the airlines industry, and I've given advice on the matter but don't have any depth of knowledge of it.

PN1120

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I mean, it seems to me to be a pretty sad sort of an indictment of somebody, what we're now confronted with, because what we've come down to now, in my view, is questions about the rosters and as to those persons who should properly be on the committees which have an overview of the roster arrangements. I mean, that's essentially where we're at. It's a question of what we do about it. Now, I don't know, but the allegations that are made that the ASU did not comply with the requirements in terms of the election of delegates insofar as this committee are fairly serious, and I understand your national secretary knows about this and gave some undertakings to do something about it some time ago. Now, I want to know what you're going to do about it.

PN1121

MS PARKIN: Commissioner, I have no instructions to do anything today. Given the seriousness of Ms Justo's injuries, she couldn't be here, and I did ring your office yesterday seeking an adjournment so that she could be present, given that she is the person who - - -

PN1122

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well, she certainly has my sympathy.

PN1123

MS PARKIN: Thank you. She is due to be out of hospital some time this morning, so we're envisaging that she will be back in the next week or two. But other than that, I have no instructions.

PN1124

THE COMMISSIONER: No.

PN1125

MS PARKIN: I only found out this morning that I was actually going to be here. So I have no instructions and haven't been able to contact the national secretary at this stage.

PN1126

THE COMMISSIONER: Well - I mean, the reality is this: that on the last occasion this matter was before the Commission, this allegation was raised. My comment then was that Ansett was entitled to rely upon the advice that was given to it by the ASU. Now, there is a suggestion here there might have been some collusion. I don't know whether there was or not; but there is an allegation contained in this that suggests that.

PN1127

MS PARKIN: Certainly.

PN1128

THE COMMISSIONER: But - I mean, the ASU simply can't sit on their hands about this matter, because frankly, on every occasion the ASU has been before me, they have been less than helpful in trying to resolve this. I think you should carry that message back to your organisation, because I'm starting to run out of patience.

PN1129

MS PARKIN: Certainly, Commissioner, I'll do that.

PN1130

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Now, Ms Moore, does Ansett want to say anything about what is alleged in this document?

PN1131

MS MOORE: Commissioner, in terms of the election issue, there has certainly been no collusion between the parties on this particular matter.

PN1132

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm not suggesting there was; I'm suggesting there is an allegation about that.

PN1133

MS MOORE: I'm confirming from our point of view that there hasn't been, Commissioner.

PN1134

THE COMMISSIONER: Very well.

PN1135

MS MOORE: I guess from Ansett's point of view, we believed that the matter had been resolved in November, until it was re-raised. I don't want to rehash all of the history that we went through a number of meetings ago. The fundamental issue, from our point of view - process is important, but let's just put that to the side for a minute - is to gain an understanding from our staff's point of view of where they feel they haven't been represented, and by that I mean specific examples of where representation hasn't occurred, because there are, as I said last time, a number of forums for which people can bring forward issues which include both the local monitoring group; we have a business forum; we have team leader groups; we have staff meetings; Mr Rennie is available to speak to staff on many occasions; and we're not aware of any issues, and we'd certainly want to correct those if we knew those specific instances.

PN1136

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, let me play devil's advocate. If I'm sitting over there, I'm saying to you, "I'm not happy with the people representing me on this committee, because they weren't properly elected." I mean, that is what is coming from that end of the Bar Table, and I don't think Ansett or the ASU can stick their head in the sand and say it will just go away, because it won't; otherwise you wouldn't have been before me on four or five separate occasions.

PN1137

MS MOORE: That's true, Commissioner, but what Ms Waterhouse and Edwards are saying is that they're not happy with those people because they don't believe that they've given them, a certain group of staff, due representation.

PN1138

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that might be the case, but what they're saying is - I mean, the reality is this: if those people were properly elected, it wouldn't matter what they were saying; they'd have to do something about that with those people. But the reality is there is an allegation here that they aren't properly elected; they aren't properly entitled to represent their views. I mean, that's what the problem is. Irrespective of whether they think they're being properly represented, this is a two-phase thing. One is they say the people are improperly there; they don't have any confidence in them - is that the case, Ms Waterhouse, Ms Edwards - I mean, I'm getting nods from that end of the Bar Table - so that has to be addressed. Something has got to be done about it.

PN1139

MS MOORE: Commissioner, can I suggest we go into conference to talk about some of the details?

PN1140

THE COMMISSIONER: Sure. Yes, that's fine. Okay. We'll adjourn into private conference.

OFF THE RECORD [10.53am]

RESUMED [11.54am]

PN1141

THE COMMISSIONER: The parties have met in private conference under the chairmanship of the Commission and have discussed a number of issues. For the record, the Commission indicates to the parties that ongoing matters regarding rosters and roster issues should be dealt with at the airport directly between the employees and Ansett and the ASU if they are part of the equation in that sense.

PN1142

Further to this, it seems now that the issue which is central to the matter before the Commission relates to whether or not certain persons were properly elected to a committee which is described as a monitoring committee. The Commission intends to have the ASU, represented by its state secretary, attend the next hearing of the Commission with a view to endeavouring to finalise that matter to the satisfaction of all of the parties. The Commission at this point in time is not in a position to indicate a hearing date, given that there is a need to assure and ensure that the ASU state secretary can attend the conference and that the Commission's diary would then accommodate that, and obviously the other parties to this matter.

PN1143

So the Commission will adjourn this proceeding and advise the parties as soon as possible of the next hearing date in an endeavour to finalise this matter. The Commission is conscious that there will be a need for a further report back of the parties regarding a roster which is currently being trialled, and that will be determined once issues are further clarified. Now, is there anything either of the parties wish to place on the record? Nothing further? I thank you for your attendance today. I shall now adjourn these proceedings.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [11.56am]