C2001/3858, Transcript of Proceedings [2001] AIRCTrans 2412 (20 September 2001)

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

VICE PRESIDENT McINTYRE

C2001/3858

APPLICATION FOR CERTIFICATION OF AGREEMENT

Application under section 170LW of the Act
by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation
and Media, Entertainment and Arts Alliance
for certification of the ABC Employment
Agreement 2000-2002

ADELAIDE

12.03 PM, THURSDAY, 30 AUGUST 2001

Continued from 29.8.01

PN63

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, Ms Mansfield?

PN64

MS MANSFIELD: Your Honour, thank you for the late start this morning. That has enabled our witnesses to review the roster that was provided yesterday by the MEAA in a little bit more detail and I propose to call two witnesses, Mr McIntyre and Mr Hamilton, to make some further comments. First though we wanted to address your Honour's question in relation to Mr Porter's penalties and I call Mr Naylor very briefly to deal with that.

PN65

THE VICE PRESIDENT: All right. Sit down, Mr Naylor. You remain under the oath from yesterday.

<CHARLES NAYLOR, ON FORMER AFFIRMATION [12.04pm]

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MANSFIELD

PN66

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, Ms Mansfield?

PN67

MS MANSFIELD: Could I hand your Honour an exhibit that Mr Naylor can speak to?

PN68

Mr Naylor, you will recall yesterday his Honour asked some questions about the calculation of payments to Mr Porter who was working some overnight shifts and there were some questions asked about proposed reductions in payments to Mr Porter?---That's right.

PN69

Have you prepared a document that sets out an explanation?---Yes, I have.

PN70

Could I tender that document, your Honour?

PN71

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, has Mr Ryan got a copy? Yes.

PN72

MR RYAN: Yes, your Honour.

EXHIBIT #ABC8 DOCUMENT RE EXPLANATION OF PAYMENTS TO MR PORTER

PN73

MS MANSFIELD: Mr Naylor, can you tell us how you have set out the calculation in column A?---Yes. Column A is the current roster or the old current roster. I say old in the sense that as of next week it is going to be changed. It involved three overnight shifts with a 10.30 pm start Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday and a fourth morning shift on Friday starting at 4 am and that arrangement of ours attracts the following penalty payments under the red book, the employment agreement. First of all the three overnight shifts because of their 10.30 pm start attract an overnight special overtime penalty which is basically for

**** CHARLES NAYLOR RXN MS MANSFIELD

work performed before midnight and extending beyond 5 am the following morning and that means that for the first 7, any work in excess of 7 hours is paid at double time. The remainder of the hours on those overnight shifts also attracts a 15 per cent shift loading. If you'd like me to quote the clause numbers in the employment agreement?

PN74

Yes, thank you?---Special overtime clause number is 31.8.4(a) and the shift penalty provision for the 15 per cent is 31.7.2. There's a further penalty attaches to the morning shift in virtue of the fact that it breaches the insufficient break over an RFD provisions of the employment agreement which are prescribed under 31.3.2 and specifically (b) and (c) and where insufficient break occurs, that is a break of 11 hours plus the 24 of the rostered free day, then overtime is paid under clause 31.8.3(c) and as it happens because of the rather unique nature of this shift the entire shift attracts this overtime penalty at double time.

PN75

So under clause 31.3.2 what is it, what break do you say is required?---Under 31?

PN76

In order to avoid the penalty?---Yes, sure. Well, in a break of 11 hours plus the 24 of the rostered free day. Now, because the previous shift started on a Thursday it is deemed to fall, you know, as a Thursday shift and the Friday - sorry, it started on a Thursday, that's right. There's an RFD in between and then the Friday shift begins and therefore there needs to be 35 hours break and there isn't and so the entire shift attracts an overtime penalty and that gives rise to those annualised figures in column (a), 15 per cent penalties, $41,000 in overtime on an annualised basis if it were extended out for 46 weeks in a year and there you go, you get a total figure of 44,751 on an annualised basis.

PN77

Right.

PN78

THE VICE PRESIDENT: So his earnings are 44,751 plus the figure at the top?---Plus his base salary of 52,289, yes, that's right.

PN79

Yes, I see, yes. Right, thanks.

**** CHARLES NAYLOR RXN MS MANSFIELD

PN80

MS MANSFIELD: How does that change under the roster that is going to start on 3 September?---On 3 September Mr Porter will be working four overnight shifts and there will no longer be the morning shift worked in the main newsroom. This obviously eliminates completely the insufficient break overtime for that entire shift. It just simply means that the four overnight shifts attract the special overtime of 2.5 hours each and obviously the remaining 7 hours attracts a 15 per cent penalty. So that gives rise to the annualised figures in column (b), slightly increased penalties because more hours attract 15 per cent, significantly reduced overtime because the insufficient break is removed. It reduces the total earnings in excess of base salary on an annualised basis down to 28,929, a $15,000-odd reduction. And that will be happening from Tuesday next week.

PN81

Right and what is the proposal then set out in column (c)?---The proposal in column (c) simply is the ABC's proposed roster which seeks to roster the overnight shift as efficiently as possible in terms of the employment agreement and by the simple expedient of moving the starting time of the overnight shift from 10.30 pm 1½ hours back to midnight. There is no longer any requirement to pay special overtime under the employment agreement. So all overtime would cease under the proposed roster. The 15 per cent penalty would now apply to the full 9½ hours each day so the penalties go up and because of the arrangement of hours there starting at midnight and extending to 9.30 in the morning the shift would now attract a meal allowance of $18.50. These annualised figures inflate that figure to convert into after-tax dollars. That's explained in the footnotes so we have a new overall annualised earnings of 11,382 on top of base salary over a 46 week period.

PN82

And in moving from roster B to the proposed roster in C can you identify the net reduction in pay to Mr Porter?---Yes, that would mean a net reduction in pay of $17,547.

PN83

And by comparison to the roster Mr Porter will be working under column (b)?---That's right.

PN84

Can you identify what the difference is to Mr Porter moving from B to C?---That's what I just did, sorry, 17,547 from B to C. The 15,000 figure in B is the difference between moving from A to B which is going to happen as from next week, assuming it's annualised.

**** CHARLES NAYLOR RXN MS MANSFIELD

PN85

Right, thank you. I have no further questions.

PN86

THE VICE PRESIDENT: All right, thanks. Mr Ryan?

<FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RYAN [12.12pm]

PN87

MR RYAN: Just one question, sorry, two questions. Has that roster been posted to the best of your ability?---The one - - -

PN88

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Which, the B roster?

PN89

MR RYAN: No, no - yes, yes, your Honour, the B roster?---Yes, I believe it has.

PN90

Right and the figure that you don't show there is the difference at C to A do you?---That's true but I mean it can be easily extended.

PN91

Yes. Well, I put to you that is 33,369?---Yes, that's quite right. Would you like me to make a comment on that or - - -

PN92

No?---No, okay.

PN93

No further questions, your Honour.

PN94

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Right, thanks, Mr Ryan. Ms Mansfield?

<FURTHER RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MANSFIELD [12.13pm]

PN95

MS MANSFIELD: Do you have a comment arising out of that question?---Yes. I mean really - - -

**** CHARLES NAYLOR FRXN MS MANSFIELD

PN96

MR RYAN: Really, your Honour, it is a mathematical equation. How can you have a question out of: take one figure from another figure gives you an answer. I mean really.

PN97

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, if something arises out of it you can have a further question, Mr Ryan, but yes, all right. What was the comment you wanted to make, Mr Naylor?---The comment was merely that B is going to happen anyway as a natural rostering practice and so if we are going to look at the overall impact of the ABC's proposed roster the comparison between B and C is the relevant one.

PN98

Mr Ryan?

<FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RYAN [12.14pm]

PN99

MR RYAN: Well, A is the current situation isn't it as we speak?---Yes, it is.

PN100

THE VICE PRESIDENT: And that shows that the figure in Mr Porter's statement of 40,000 was a slight - - -

PN101

MR RYAN: Is incorrect, your Honour. It is 33,369. I think there's a reference I think of 34,000 in an earlier witness from the ABC.

PN102

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, it is the difference between A and C there isn't it?

PN103

MR RYAN: Yes. I think it was referred to as 34 but to be precise it is 33,369.

PN104

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Just - 33?

**** CHARLES NAYLOR FXXN MR RYAN

PN105

MR RYAN: 369.

PN106

THE VICE PRESIDENT: 369, all right.

PN107

MS MANSFIELD: I have nothing further.

PN108

THE VICE PRESIDENT: No, thanks then, Mr Naylor?---Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.14pm]

PN109

MS MANSFIELD: Your Honour, could I recall Mr Hamilton?

PN110

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Hamilton? Mr Hamilton, you remain as before on the oath you took yesterday.

<WALTER HAMILTON, ON FORMER OATH [12.15pm]

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MANSFIELD

PN111

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Ms Mansfield?

PN112

MS MANSFIELD: Mr Hamilton, yesterday Mr Ryan invited you to comment on a draft roster which is marked MFI 1 in these proceedings. Have you had an opportunity to review that roster further?---Yes, I have.

PN113

And do you have other comment to make in addition to the comment you made yesterday?---I do. I would like to proceed on the points that have been submitted with this roster by the MEAA. Point 1 refers to the savings issue. The ABC is seeking to roster the Sydney radio newsroom as efficiently as possible to meet its budget targets as a division. It is essential that we do that. The MEAA believes that this roster will deliver approximately $200,000 in annual savings. I said yesterday that at a cursory look at it over lunch the MEAA proposed roster had a leave provision which seemed inadequate to operational needs. It was put to me that if I compared the leave column in the MEAA roster with the leave column in the ABC proposed roster the ABC proposed roster appeared to have less provision for leave requirements. I misread the notation of the ABC proposed roster and failed to note that in the ABC proposed roster we have provision on the basis of unfilled positions a total of five, a training position unfilled, a maternity leave position unfilled, a leave without pay position unfilled and - this is attachment D, the draft roster New South Wales Radio Newsroom.

PN114

Which is the note that you are identifying, Mr Hamilton, the note that you say you did not observe yesterday?---When I looked down to compare the roster provided by the MEAA with our proposed roster I looked only at recreation leave. Since the MEAA roster had identified its provision under the title of recreation leave in drawing that comparison alone I inadequately explained the provision that is contained within the ABC proposed roster to allow for leave and the ABC proposed roster contains within it a provision for five positions to be provided for from which leave is to be provided for, compared with three positions that appear on the MEAA proposed roster.

**** WALTER HAMILTON RXN MS MANSFIELD

PN115

So in relation to leave then your comment on the roster is what?---My comment is this in relation to the point about the savings, it seems to me that the MEAA roster would need to be supported by expenditure on backfilling for leave and the actual operational leave situation in the Sydney radio newsroom can be explained more adequately by the direct line manager Paul McIntyre but that is my general observation. It does concern me if it were the case that the ABC will not be able to achieve the dollar savings through the efficiencies that we are seeking through the roster changes we are proposing. I would point out that the division, the news and current affairs division of the ABC has since we began the process of notifying months ago to our staff in the radio newsroom a desire to proceed upon a roster change, we have since received our budge for this financial year. We can identify as a division within that budget a need to save very significant amounts of money and I can mention figures that the news and current affairs division needs to achieve a total budget of 116 million, implied savings of 6.7 million and some of those savings we will achieve through production resources in the television area but as a division we still have to achieve 2.9 million which we have identified but haven't yet achieved and we have still to make that budget target of 116 million. We've got unidentified savings of $900,000. Now, yesterday in cross-examination I was asked about the implications of co-location in Sydney in terms of potential efficiencies. If it was led from that questioning that we could find operational savings and efficiencies through co-location which would help make up for any deficiency in finding appropriate savings in the rostering of the radio news staff but then I would point out from the figures I've just cited that there is no scope whatsoever for this division to lay off efficiencies not found in the radio news operation in Sydney by finding them elsewhere. We - - -

PN116

You are not suggesting though, Mr Hamilton, that the $2.9 million savings required in the division have to come from the Sydney radio newsroom?---No, it's a divisional requirement. What we have as an immovable object is a budget of $116 million. As managers we have the whole gamut of opportunity for seeking efficiencies where efficiencies can be found. We believe we have identified and we have measured efficiencies within the radio newsroom, that they are the minimum that we need to achieve by rostered efficiency changes and as I said there's a lot happening in the division including co-location. All of those operational changes affecting other areas apart from the Sydney radio newsroom are having to find from their operations ongoing efficiencies this financial year to

**** WALTER HAMILTON RXN MS MANSFIELD

come within budget. I as a manager would not be tolerant of a situation where I was asking what I believed to be more efficient radio newsrooms outside Sydney to have to meet yet unspecified savings for them because we have not delivered in the radio newsroom in Sydney the full operational efficiencies which I believe are apparent. Addressing the second point if I may, the MEAA roster refers to the imbalance between production reporting staff and that the proposed MEAA roster would address management concerns over this imbalance by eliminating two production shifts on weekends. We're glad to find that there's some recognition that on the production roster for the Sydney radio newsroom we have an inefficient level of staffing but I would point out that Monday to Friday, leaving aside the proposed changes on the weekend here, Monday to Friday the Sydney radio news operation production desk is working we believe at a level of inefficiency when compared with comparable newsrooms. For example in the morning in Melbourne, and I will address the issue of reader versus producer in a moment but since my own statement calculates on the basis that production of a bulletin includes preparing the content of the bulletin and delivering it to the audience through reading it, I will use figures based on that premise. In the morning in Melbourne we have three people delivering news bulletins out of the Melbourne radio newsroom. One of those staff members finishes at 1800. Melbourne has at 12 o'clock to produce and put to air two bulletins simultaneously, a requirement that Sydney does not have to fulfil. In the mornings Monday to Friday Sydney has three people working to deliver news bulletins. All of them finish under the proposed MEAA roster, under the proposed MEAA roster at 1330. A fourth person starting at 10 under this proposed MEAA roster would be on that desk through the midday bulletins. We believe that the proposed MEAA roster maintains an excessive number of production staff perpetuating in inefficiency which we can identify by comparing the activities of newsrooms in other parts of the country. The third point on the MEAA submissions concerning their proposed roster refers to a provision that they have made in their roster for a production staff member to perform on-line, news on-line activities during part of the proposed shift. I would point out that the requirements for this division, news and current affairs, to prepare material for the on-line site which is delivered to the new media division of the ABC are subject to service level agreements between news and current affairs and the new media division. They are subject to program briefs which are prepared by management. They are not something to be designed in an ad hoc way I believe by an MEAA roster which allocates a function bearing no regard for the management plan or program brief between news and current affairs and new media. We sustain, the ABC sustains substantial on-line staff based in Brisbane. We have some on-line functions performed outside Brisbane in other newsrooms.

**** WALTER HAMILTON RXN MS MANSFIELD

It will be determined by ABC management, particularly news and current affairs management, how the news on-line functions will be delivered to the ABC web site and that will be determined on the basis of operational needs. It won't be managed around provision for a specific rostered shift on this MEAA roster. Likewise point 4 makes a provision for an on-line role on Saturday and Sunday upon what basis or upon what operational basis is such a provision made. The next points concern an extra round that the MEAA roster provides for, a police round. I believe if you examine the proposed ABC roster we already have provided for a provision for a police round and we are going further by in our roster establishing a further specialist round. The MEAA submission attached to this proposed roster talks about reporter shifts. In our examination of the comparison between the number of shifts overall in the Sydney newsroom between the MEAA proposed roster and the ABC roster we find that there are fewer shifts available to be tasked under the proposed MEAA roster. The details of how we calculate the impact of choosing the MEAA roster over our roster again I believe can be addressed in more detail by the direct line manager. The assumption of course is that we should persist with a four-day-a-week roster, that 9½ hour shifts in reporting activity are an efficient means of progressing. I've addressed yesterday and I will repeat it again, we find in operating newsrooms everywhere else in this country for radio news purposes that we can get a very efficient outcome from 8 hour shifts for reporters and as my statement yesterday, in my written statement and I alluded to it yesterday, points out that when I did look at the output in our radio news bulletins comparing Sydney, Adelaide and Perth over a recent two-week period I found that in newsrooms, and I specify Perth and Adelaide, with fewer reporters, significantly fewer reporters than Sydney, they were delivering more stories into the bulletins than the Sydney reporting staff were delivering. Now, if an eight-hour roster for a reporter was an impediment to an efficient delivery of product to the radio news network I think the figures should be reversed on the truth but in fact we find the case is that the newsrooms operating off eight-hour shifts with fewer reporters appear at least during the fortnight period that I examined to be able to deliver to their local bulletins a larger number of stories. The number of hours asserted here as being an advantage in terms of reporter hours per month I would like to see the calculation by the MEAA to support that contention.

PN117

THE VICE PRESIDENT: This is point 6?---That's point 6, I'm sorry, your Honour.

**** WALTER HAMILTON RXN MS MANSFIELD

PN118

Yes?---Point 7, the sample four-week roster allows for three people on recreation leave each week. I've addressed the inadequacy of that provision against actual operational needs. In summary I would like to say that points in the MEAA cover sheet to their roster acknowledge inefficient practices by removing from their proposed roster certain production staff or by allocating them non-production news bulletin roles. An acknowledgment that we have an inefficient allocation of staff is a step in the right direction but the roster that is proposed I believe by the MEAA still perpetuates significant inefficiencies compared with other newsrooms around the country.

PN119

MS MANSFIELD: I have nothing to ask Mr Hamilton.

PN120

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Hamilton, those inefficiencies you referred to, are they quantifiable in dollars?---We have set out to achieve as our objective a certain dollar saving and the figure of $200,000 was mentioned at that time. The further inefficiencies I think can be quantified in dollars if we were to apply you know further principles of efficiency but at the moment we are saying we have some constraints in terms of skill within the Sydney newsroom, we have in our proposed roster an allocation of certain numbers of people and that is what we are offering to do. We believe we gain efficiencies by moving to a five-day week configuration and as time goes by if we can develop the skills of people in that newsroom for other functions apart from the one that they have been performing for a long period and no other, then over time in the future we may be able to operate even more efficiently. But the point I'm making here is that in the proposed roster that we have offered we can see efficiencies over the current arrangement and we can see efficiencies over the MEAA proposed roster and that is at least a starting point.

PN121

As I understand it from the evidence that has been given the $200,000 figure is entirely or almost the savings from having three fewer people?---That's right.

PN122

Yes, and it has also of course been mentioned savings in meal allowances but the figure there I think was a total of 16 or $17,000 and there may be others in various overtime penalty arrangements. I'm not certain that that has been quantified in any way. I may have overlooked it but are there any areas of dollar savings as you see it if the ABC's proposed roster were introduced?---Over the proposed MEAA roster?

**** WALTER HAMILTON RXN MS MANSFIELD

PN123

No, over the existing roster I think because those figures come from the comparisons with the present four-day roster?---We've allocated a staff level which indicates that we are relying on a reduction of three. I believe, and I can't give you a dollar figure, I believe in operating on a five-day roster with a staff level less the three that we have identified as the $200,000 value we will gain efficiencies but I can't give you a dollar figure if that's what you're asking for now.

PN124

Okay, thanks.

PN125

MS MANSFIELD: Could I ask one further question arising out of your Honour's questions?

PN126

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN127

MS MANSFIELD: Given that the current position is a four-day roster proposing three redundancies will the same level of savings be achieved if the four-day roster remains in place?---Will the same level of savings from the redundancies be achieved under a four-day roster?

PN128

That is the question, yes, yes?---I can't answer that question to tell you the truth.

PN129

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, thanks, Ms Mansfield. Mr Ryan?

PN130

MR RYAN: Thank you, your Honour.

<FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RYAN [12.36pm]

PN131

MR RYAN: Mr Hamilton, do you know that the roster in the Sydney newsroom for 10 September has already been posted?---I take your advice on that.

**** WALTER HAMILTON FXXN MR RYAN

PN132

And that shows that there will be four people on recreation leave for that week and we've been able to look at the previous 14 rosters which show three, three, two, four, four, four, one, two, three, one, two, one, one and one of people being on recreation leave. That gives you an average of 2.2 people away over the last 15 weeks. 2.2 is less than 3 isn't it?---Mr Ryan, I can't answer specific number questions. I can tell you that I can - - -

PN133

Well, you can say if 2.2 is less than 3, surely?---In what context I wouldn't know. Whether the 2.2 is an accurate representation of the operational leave situation I wouldn't know. If you're asking me whether in an absolute sense 2.2 is less than 3 then obviously it is.

PN134

Right. Let me put it to you again. This is not hard. For the 15 weeks that we've been able to look at starting at 10 September, because that has been posted already, that shows four people on recreation leave. The week before was three, then three, then two, then four, then four, then four, then one, two, three, one, two, one, one and one were people actually on recreation leave. When you average that out it becomes 2.2. Now, as you admitted 2.2 is less than 3. That is correct isn't it?---The operational requirement - I've answered that previous question. The operational requirement it seems to me is to manage a newsroom with all leave obligations.

PN135

And your starting point - - -?---And to do it - sorry, can I finish? To do it in such a way that you can do it within your roster rather than having to call on casuals.

PN136

Yes, and your starting point was that the provision in MFI 1 - I take it, your Honour, that should actually be marked as an exhibit I think.

PN137

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I just marked it MFI 1. I don't think you have sought to tender it.

PN138

MR RYAN: Well, it has been tendered now to the extent that the witness has had it so I do actually seek to have it made an exhibit, your Honour.

**** WALTER HAMILTON FXXN MR RYAN

PN139

THE VICE PRESIDENT: But if I were to mark it then exhibit MEAA20, that is the document that was yesterday marked MFI 1.

EXHIBIT #MEAA20 DOCUMENT PREVIOUSLY MARKED MFI 1

PN140

MR RYAN: So what I'm putting to you, Mr Hamilton, is that to provision for three is sufficient when you look at the last 15 weeks in relation to the newsroom?---I'd defer to the more expert view of the person who's managing those staff as to whether three, a provision of three recreation leave positions would be sufficient to manage both just the recreational leave or any other leave that will be accruing or be occurring. My answer to the question as to what I'd seen when I had had further time to review the proposed roster submitted by the MEAA yesterday and compare it with what you provided me yesterday which was attachment D, I look down attachment D with more care and note that there are five positions available to deal with leave provisions compared with three on the MEAA roster.

PN141

I just can't see, sorry, where those five come from in D?---Well, they're identified as unfilled positions including what is identified on the attachment D as Limm, Harper training ex Chase ex Porter.

PN142

So there's two vacancies. So you are saying those blanks are the actual - - -?---No, I'm looking down at the far left column at the bottom: not rostered, on attachment D.

PN143

We've got Limm, I've Limm on maternity leave on mine?---Yes, not backfilled.

PN144

And Harper on leave without pay?---Yes, not backfilled.

PN145

And Steve Chase has now been off for some 12 months or so?---Yes, not backfilled.

**** WALTER HAMILTON FXXN MR RYAN

PN146

And Porter?---Not backfilled, although Porter appears in the - - -

PN147

On the roster?---Yes, he appears in the roster because he is backfilling for Spicer.

PN148

Mr Porter - - -?---It's a standard position, it is not backfilled.

PN149

That is only four. I don't see how you get five then?---The training position which is not filled.

PN150

With training it has got nothing against it?---Yes, it is not filled.

PN151

Well, that somebody is training or somebody is away at training?---It's a position which is not filled.

PN152

And that is also vacant on our roster isn't it, the training position?---I see in your roster three recreation leave positions.

PN153

Do you also see "training" and next to it "vacant," identical to yours "vacant" training?---On the left-hand column?

PN154

It is underneath "Friday and Saturday," down the very bottom, the word "training" and next to it the word "vacant"?---Right and that applies to those two days?

**** WALTER HAMILTON FXXN MR RYAN

PN155

No, it applies to everything just like yours does imply to ours. I note that you agree that our proposal for the weekends is in line with management's in point 2 of the covering notes?---It's not in the sense that it talks about a position, the AM2 position on Saturday and Sunday strengthening the on-line role as I've pointed out. The provision for on-line is a matter to be dealt with by the division using all the resources around the country and it is not a management position that we will designate the AM2 position of that particular roster point for that function. Our roster in fact does not remove the EP producer position from Saturday and Sundays I understand it.

PN156

Well, I would suggest you take a look at that?---Well, I see it on attachment D as being filled, EP PM position.

PN157

My understanding is that there are two productions: Cameron and Simpson appears in your first one?---Are we looking, sorry, at attachment D?

PN158

If you look at D what we have is - - -?---Yes.

PN159

- - - an EP if you want to call it and a producer and what we have is two producers?---Yes. What I'm saying is that on our roster that position designated as EP PM, and the names that appear here are J. Simpson on Saturday and Robinson on Sunday. They appear in our roster. In your roster I don't see anybody against that EP PM position.

PN160

No, because we've moved - - -?---You state that what you are doing on the weekends is what we're doing but I'm saying it isn't.

PN161

In relation - so you don't accept that we've picked up the view that you can move a production shift and convert it into a reporter shift is not a good idea?---No, what I said was I was glad to see that inefficiencies had been identified within the current roster.

**** WALTER HAMILTON FXXN MR RYAN

PN162

And you also agree that we've provided for a police round similar to attachment D?---Yes.

PN163

How long has the police round been vacant for?---I couldn't answer that question definitively.

PN164

Roughly?---I have been back at the ABC since February. I was away for 12 months before that. During the period that I was national editor a state round covering police I don't think was filled at that time. Prior to that I wasn't in a position to be able to tell you.

PN165

So it is more than 2 years it has been vacant?---It's a few years, yes.

PN166

And the proposed education health, has there previously been an education or health round?---Yes, there has been a health round, medical round we call it.

PN167

How long has that been vacant for do you know?---Couldn't tell you, I'm sorry.

PN168

In relation to point 6, you queried those figures. If you count up the hours provided in exhibit MEAA20 it shows there are 142.5 - sorry, 140, 142.5 general reporter hours over the four weeks compared with your model - sorry, it is 1425. There was a typo there, your Honour. It is rounded up to be - that should be 5, as opposed to the ABC's 1360?---Where are those numbers?

PN169

Well, it is just a question of adding up the lengths of the shifts provided for general reporters?---Understood but are they written down for me to look at here?

**** WALTER HAMILTON FXXN MR RYAN

PN170

No, you just have to trust me that when you add up all the number of people who are general reporters on our draft roster working those 9½ hour shifts and compare it with the ABC's roster for the number of general reporters over the four-week cycle working 8 hours then it is 1425 on our model versus 1360 on the ABC's model?---That's your contention. I haven't been able to test that but as I say I drew attention specifically to what I have been able to pay attention to which is the number of shifts and the number of shifts available under the ABC proposed roster is significantly greater than under the MEAA proposed roster.

PN171

It is not my contention, Mr Hamilton, it is my mathematics when you add up the hours, the total reporting hours for general reporters on their hours is 1425?---And that includes or excludes recreation leave provisions?

PN172

It includes on the rosters people working those four-week periods 1425 versus 1360?---It includes the overnight cables position?

PN173

No?---It doesn't.

PN174

THE VICE PRESIDENT: It is just the people it has generally in the first column in your roster.

PN175

MR RYAN: Yes, your Honour, yes, just general reporters. It does not include rounds, it does not include production staff.

PN176

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. No, anyone else?---Okay. I note on some days in the MEAA proposed roster there are fewer reporters rostered in the general reporter column than under the ABC proposed roster. I can give you specifics on that once I just - - -

**** WALTER HAMILTON FXXN MR RYAN

PN177

MR RYAN: Yes, and Mr McIntyre in his evidence said that five general reporting staff was do-able, although six may be preferable?---Can I mention the number that I see here? I see on the proposed MEAA roster, say looking at a Wednesday, I think it is the same Thursday in general reporter column I see one, two, three, four, five, six. On this roster, the ABC proposed roster I see in the general column one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. If you are asking me about the availability of people to do the job I would draw your attention to that.

PN178

I wasn't asking anything about that. I was just asking numbers in relation to your challenging my mathematics. That was all?---No, I wasn't challenging. I said I wasn't in a position to be able to comment on it.

PN179

And finally the figure of $200,000 is a figure Mr McIntyre has in his statement and is purely related to the redundancy of three staff?---That's right and that's how I answered the question I think that was put to me by his Honour.

PN180

And you are aware already aren't you that two of those three have already gone?---Yes, I am aware of that.

PN181

So there has already been some savings made?---Yes, that is we have had a reduction in budget. It's been very grateful that we've made some savings.

PN182

But the savings flow from less people being employed in the Sydney newsroom?---Indeed.

PN183

So the three people going gives a saving of $200,000?---That's we have submitted.

PN184

That is what you have said and it has not been challenged by myself or sought to be clarified by Ms Mansfield?---No, I haven't challenged it either.

**** WALTER HAMILTON FXXN MR RYAN

PN185

Right. So we can safely say that three people going by way of redundancies gives the saving quoted by the ABC of $200,000?---This is what the ABC has quoted, yes.

PN186

Yes, and as I said it has been unchallenged?---Well, it depends on when we actually deliver the savings I suppose in terms of its impact on this year's budget.

PN187

Well, I assume over a 12 month period it gives you $200,000. It does not matter if it a financial year or whatever but over a 12 month period and you have admitted already that two of those people have gone?---Yes.

PN188

And they've gone in the context of a four-week roster, that is correct, yes?---Yes, that's right. Sorry.

PN189

So in exhibit MEAA20 we have provided for a third redundancy. That is no date on the covering page?---Yes, I can see that, yes.

PN190

That then would give you a saving of $200,000 wouldn't it, with three redundancies?---That's as I understand it.

PN191

No further questions, your Honour.

PN192

THE VICE PRESIDENT: All right, thanks. Ms Mansfield?

<FURTHER RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MANSFIELD [12.50pm]

**** WALTER HAMILTON FRXN MS MANSFIELD

PN193

MS MANSFIELD: Mr Hamilton, just accepting for a moment that Mr Ryan's calculation is right and that an additional 1425 general reporter hours are delivered by his roster does that satisfy your operational requirements?---As I've said I have serious doubts that the MEAA roster will operationally be able to support savings of the magnitude of $200,000 because even though we lose positions his roster is based on an insufficient provision for operational needs and we would I believe incur expenses through casual backfilling to maintain the output which is assumed under the MEAA proposed roster and that this would significantly erode the savings that we would have earmarked from the redundancies.

PN194

Assuming though that what Mr Ryan says is correct just on the figures and that you are delivered that number of additional hours what is your comment on what the ABC can do with these additional hours in the context of his roster?---Look the operation of that newsroom is to maintain maximum efficiency. It's not just a matter of removing people. It's also a matter of detailing them to duties which can produce, that is achieve higher productivity for that newsroom. Yet we want people to be able to do in the way of news gathering more than we are currently doing. We want people to be able to produce at levels we see journalists producing in other newsrooms. So efficiency is measured both in terms of an absolute reduction in the cost of maintaining a certain level of staff but it's also measurable I believe in terms of using all available staff more efficiently.

PN195

Why do you say that all of those additional hours in the configuration that is in exhibit MEAA20 does not deliver that efficiency?---Well, I think that as I said before if you have four-day rosters you have people working longer hours but not without necessarily being fully utilised during those longer hours. I believe that we can on the reporting staff maintain an operational flow which is more efficient if you have reporters, for example general reporters who are working five days out of the seven. The professional news cycle, although it is a seven-day cycle, we have an output requirement Monday to Friday which is considerably greater than it is on weekends and that means that if we have the continuity of reporting staff working through Monday to Friday by virtue of their craft skills, their contacts, their familiarity with the ongoing stories of the week, they themselves will be in a better position to operate than if they are working on a four-day cycle where I believe the greater absence from work necessarily will mean they are less in contact with their professional field.

**** WALTER HAMILTON FRXN MS MANSFIELD

PN196

Thank you. I've nothing further.

PN197

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thanks. Thanks again, Mr Hamilton?---Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.54pm]

PN198

MS MANSFIELD: Your Honour, we started late. I'm not sure what you would like to do about a luncheon adjournment, if anything.

PN199

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, what if we adjourn till 1.30? Would that be satisfactory for everybody?

PN200

MS MANSFIELD: Yes, thank you.

PN201

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Right. I will do that then.

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.55pm]

RESUMED [1.33pm]

PN202

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Ms Mansfield?

PN203

MS MANSFIELD: May it please the Commission I wish to recall Mr McIntyre.

PN204

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Right. Sit down please and you remain on the oath or affirmation you took yesterday.

<PAUL McINTYRE, ON FORMER OATH [1.33pm]

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MANSFIELD

PN205

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, Ms Mansfield?

PN206

MS MANSFIELD: Mr Mansfield, yesterday you were shown a document, a proposed roster that the MEAA put to you at the end of your cross-examination?---Yes, I was.

PN207

Have you had an opportunity to look at that document more closely?---Yes, I have.

PN208

And do you wish to make further comment about the way that document fits into your operational requirement?---Yes, I do. I've had a reasonable opportunity to look through this. The only major changes that I can see from the current four-day week roster that is in operation at the moment is that on a Saturday and Sunday afternoon the EP shift has been removed and that sort of saves half a position a week. In looking at this roster on the basis that it is going to work efficiently once the redundancies have taken effect and that we can effectively operate on a four-day week with those positions gone I find that there is no real difference to what we're currently operating. This roster is based upon the fact that all vacant positions have been filled, that we have no positions outstanding, that we're not taking sick leave into account, that we're not adequately covering leave. For example if you've got 40 journalists who are each entitled to 6 weeks leave a year that's 240 weeks leave that is required to be taken. On this MEAA roster we have got three people allocated to take leave at a time. That leaves us a number of weeks short if we've got I think it's 180, if we've got three times 6 weeks throughout the year. So it's about 180 weeks. So it's significantly short of what we're able to do under the five-week roster. If I can refer to the amount of leave that's been taken over the past year, in recent weeks there hasn't been a lot taken, maybe because it's winter but on average I think we were somewhere between 50 and 60 days leave taken a month. If I may refer to some of my notes. If I look at the leave taken on days over the past year I mean this is taking into account rec leave, if we look at March of this year we only had 23 days taken, April 31, May 56 and June was 12. If we look at July of last year we had 68, we had 82 in August, 63 in September, 46 in October, taking into account that we weren't letting too many people go on leave because of the Olympic Games. In November we had 80 and if you take those, those 5 or 6 months ignoring

**** PAUL McINTYRE RXN MS MANSFIELD

December/January when we are able to allow more people to go on leave if we're doing the sounds of summer and cutting back to say a weekend-style roster, under the MEAA proposal if we've only got three people that are taking leave then that's 12 days a week over 4 weeks for that period which is 48 days. So in July I would have had to turn down five people for leave, seven to eight people in August, five again in September. We would have been all right in October. We might have had to turn down another seven or eight in November and that carries on through into February as well. So that's a bit of a problem there. We also in the MEAA roster I notice that we had no savings coming to fruition through meal allowances. We've got the leave problem, inadequate leave. If you're rostering on a basis of six general reporters and you do not have the capacity in your roster to call on casual staff because there's no spare cash, if you have one or two people sick you can be down to four staff or in the case of when we've got five rostered on you could be down to three and that's an inadequate number of staff to effectively contribute to our bulletins.

PN209

That is a comment you are making in relation to the general reporters?---Yes, in relation to the general reporters. I also note that when they were talking about an extra round, bringing in the police round, that police round has always been there. It used to be the justice round. There has been a position number allocated always for that. It just hasn't been filled in recent times. That has not gone away. So their new roster is in effect not bringing about an extra round or creating an extra position as such. I also notice that there's still the inefficiencies. At midday we've still got three producers. I can not see the rationalisation for three producers at midday. That's been covered off and I would prefer to see that gone so that we can better utilise those resources. We also have the inefficient rostering of the overnight shifts. I'm aware that there was going to be some calculations done on exempt figures but I do understand from what I've been able to see in my budgets that it's quite a significant amount by doing your three overnights and then having Mr Porter come back and work an early shift on a Friday morning. Incidentally that budget money is charged back against the international intake desk so it doesn't really affect me as such or my budget as such but it is an interesting point on the efficiencies. We also seem to have fewer reporters in this four-day proposal from the MEAA by comparison to what we've got in my five-day-a-week roster. Most days here there are six people on the MEAA roster. A couple of days I've noticed it's down to five. There is one day that I think I've got five on my roster cycle of five-day week but there are a number of days where we have up to eight reporters available. Now, those resources can be utilised in a number of ways to fill where people are sick and

**** PAUL McINTYRE RXN MS MANSFIELD

juggled around for major breaking stories which is another point that this roster doesn't cover. If as was mentioned yesterday with the Christmas Islands, with Christmas Islands and Tampa if we were to be the main contributor for that story if we've only got five or six staff and we are required to carry that story throughout a number of days and from morning through till dusk then that really taxes our resources, particularly again if someone is sick.

PN210

I will just stop you there for a moment, Mr McIntyre. You see that the exhibit that came with the MEAA roster identifies 66 more reporter hours per month than the ABC's roster. Why does not that address your reporting needs?---Well, 66 hours, hours to me are completely irrelevant. I'm more interested in shifts. If you've got a 9-hour or a 10-hour shift that's fine. That reporter might be able to stay on for an extra hour or two by comparison with someone doing an 8-hour shift but if you've got two people or an extra one or two bodies able to cover, it's a lot easier to utilise your resources if you've got more bodies working on stories rather than hours per se. Also I noted that because this roster from the MEAA is so tight the way it's worked it's not taking into account things that may arise if I have roster requests from people that want to alter their child care arrangements or we've got some that want to do study. I wouldn't be able to give study leave if I had a change in child-care arrangements from a person. I can't help it but this is the way it's got to work for me. I may not be able to produce the best form of roster either to suit the ABC's requirements or to help that person out in that case. It also means because the number of staff that you've got available there to be on leave free if someone wants to take a couple of days off here or there just to go away for a long weekend or that or to add on to whatever weekend break they've got we may not be able to offer that if it's going to cut other areas back to five. We wouldn't be able to grant study leave to the same extent that I'm doing now. It would just be a no-go. I wouldn't be able to on some days have a person out for a whole day or three-quarters of the day to attend some form of class or the like on a regular basis. I did have a look through and work out some other differences. I noted that where the MEAA has said in their four-day week roster that they don't really need the afternoon EP on a Saturday or Sunday. That would easily translate into a further efficiency or saving for the ABC roster. When the MEAA raised yesterday that we may not get consent to change the working arrangements of those on the four, the four part-time people and that would impact on us by eight shifts over a four-week cycle I think it was. The utilisation by not filling that EP role on the Saturday and Sunday afternoon would soon help us out with that problem of the part-timers wanting to stay on that equivalent of a four-day week.

**** PAUL McINTYRE RXN MS MANSFIELD

PN211

So that is an efficiency that you are identifying within the MEAA roster?---Yes, that's an efficiency that has come through in their roster that could easily be utilised in the five-day roster they've pretty much stated here by putting this forward that they are comfortable not to have an EP on the Saturday and Sunday afternoon so better as to utilisation but apart from those two positions, those two shifts on the Saturday and Sunday afternoon and the reduction of the number of people available to take leave there is very little difference to the way the roster, four-day week roster is running at the moment other than to say that all positions have been filled.

PN212

Right. If you just look at the cover page to the roster you will see that it is premised on the three redundancies which is something that your five-day roster also takes into account. Do you accept that the saving will be the $200,000 identified here?---No, I don't, purely because it is going to be such a tight roster that I am going to need to take casuals on on a reasonably regular basis to fill pretty much just sick leave, if people are requiring extra days off to take a little bit of leave. It is going to cost, particularly if you have someone on maternity leave and they want to take a whole year off and there's provision that we can give them 3 months paid maternity leave. Now, they might have a significant period of leave owing and take that. Well, we're not in a position to backfill that so that creates a problem. If I've got five people that want to go on leave and they've all got very valid reasons, I don't like to turn down leave. What do I do? Do I say: well no you can't go on leave? Or should I try and give it to them and free up somewhere else so that the other two can take that leave? If I do that that's going to cost a significant amount of money and there is no way that I'll be able to meet my budget on that account. With the roster that I've put forward there are some days that are quite fat where in the general reporters we have up to eight people rostered. By reaching them we would be able to cover such instances. So it helps us out there but I have grave concerns about being able to make the budget savings that are required and yes, that's about that on - - -

**** PAUL McINTYRE RXN MS MANSFIELD

PN213

Okay. You said that the proposed roster didn't address your concern about staffing on the subs desk in the middle of the day?---Yes, I did. If I just take you to point 2 of the exhibit there's a suggestion that management's concerns over imbalance between production and reporting staff is addressed. Do you have a comment on that?---I can't see how it is addressed. I mean we're still looking at a large number of people on the production desk. If you are looking on a Monday to Friday basis I think there's about 25 shifts there and then by the time you bring in the day producer at 10 o'clock there's another person. By saying 25 shifts I'm also counting the reader in that. Whether you count him or not it's the same for both sides if I count him on both sides. We're trying to move away from having a bottleneck at midday. One of the other things that was mentioned in the MEAA roster is that they felt they had enough in the way of resources to do on-line work for us. I'm very grateful for that offer but I'm afraid I'm going to have to decline because there will be no requirement for any on-line services to come out of the Sydney newsroom definitely at this point in time or in the near future as I understand it. But if they're able to do that I would presume that there is room for manoeuvre within their current work load. One other point, if I was to cut back my roster on the general reporting front and say: right we can get by with six,it would free up a number of shifts each week which I think equates to round about point 8 or point 9 of a position. Now, that can be utilised to backfill illness with casuals, it can be used for big stories that are coming up, say for example the federal election or if Sydney is deemed to be responsible for a major story, or say there's a big series of bushfires or floods and we want to put a significant number of resources into a particular area then I have that flexibility to do that.

PN214

So are you identifying a proposal out of the MEAA roster that will deliver an efficiency to you?---No, I can't see that anywhere if we get - and to a problem or situation where we need more resources then I don't have those to give. It's also hard on the five-day week roster I will have plenty of resources. There won't be too many casuals being utilised. There will be very few. We'll generally be relying on the permanent part timers and adjusting rosters with the ebb and flows of requirements but under the MEAA we have a number of casuals being utilised. Now, because it's through a week and they're at a variety of different times you may only be able to have three casuals or four casuals working 1 or 2 days a week. If you offer casuals such a limited amount of work then they're more than likely going to go elsewhere to find work so that it comes to a point that when you ring them up and say: look we're short, at short notice, can you help us out, they're more than likely going to say: look sorry I'm booked up somewhere else. And at the moment you know there's a little bit of a flow between SBS and us but finding casuals will become hard.

**** PAUL McINTYRE RXN MS MANSFIELD

PN215

Do you have any other comment, Mr McIntyre?---I don't think it was very clear in my five-day roster exactly how the leave was being accrued or how it was being taken. At the very bottom under "not rostered" I had Matt L. with - that's maternity leave that we weren't backfilling at that time. There was LWOP which is leave without pay Harper. We weren't backfilling that position. So there were two. Under "vacant positions" we had Chase. That position at that time had not been filled and where I've got "ex Porter" Porter is also showing on the roster at the same time but he is backfilling Spicer. So he was covering another P number and I could charge the international intake desk for his services. So I had those funds to do that there and I would have also been utilising some of that training but with the five-day roster I think I have a surplus somewhere in the vicinity of 70 to 80 weeks leave a year and that would help that cover that training position so when the training position is being used I can call on those funds that are saved through that. We also have a problem out in the regionals at the moment with two people who haven't for whatever reason been able to take their allocated leave over the past few years. One person has got over 140 days leave owing and one is now down to about 120. That's apart from their long service leave. Now, somehow I need to be able to rechannel resources to cover that and I've been trying to do that through Sydney and out of the Sydney budget for the next 8 to 10 weeks I'll be sending someone down to Bega to help with the situation there. Although it's a regional station with two people the person that will be left when the senior journalist goes on leave is pregnant and I do not want to see her put in a position where she is working long hours when she may not be able to cope with that. So I'm looking to help out on that front.

PN216

And you can achieve that assistance under your five-day roster?---Yes, I can achieve that assistance under the five-day roster without - - -

PN217

And what about under the proposed roster?---Under the proposed roster, no I can't.

PN218

Right. I think you mentioned that the police round is identified both in the MEAA roster and the ABC roster?---Yes.

**** PAUL McINTYRE RXN MS MANSFIELD

PN219

Is that the only difference that you are identifying in terms of specialist reporting?---No, there is under the five-day week roster there is provision for another round. In there I've got it called, I think it's, yes, education/health. That hasn't been finalised yet exactly what that round is. My preference at this point would be either education or health. There are a number of other areas that may well be important but I would like to sit down and work that through with my executive producers and a production team but under the four-day roster proposed by the MEAA I will not be able to do that.

PN220

Are those your comments?---Just thinking.

PN221

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thanks, Mr Ryan.

<FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RYAN [1.55pm]

PN222

MR RYAN: Mr McIntyre, you made reference to the fact that Mr Porter appears on our roster as working on the morning of Friday?---I'll just have a look at that. Yes, I did on week three.

PN223

And week one as well?---I see that as well, yes.

PN224

Have you got your roster there?---Yes, I have.

PN225

I put it to you that Mr Porter's working arrangements under both our roster and your roster are identical?---That is because at the time of this submission I was still in negotiation with the international intake desk to try and resolve the problem of the perceived insufficient break and that whole shift being paid at double time to Mr Porter. So at that time there had not been a resolution.

PN226

Well, I'm putting it to you simply that on your roster and our roster Mr Porter's working pattern is identical?---It is and that is something that is open to change as this is a draft or proposed roster.

**** PAUL McINTYRE FXXN MR RYAN

PN227

Or a model roster even?---Or model.

PN228

You make reference in paragraph 7(b) of your statement to the two vacant part-time olympic rounds?---I actually don't have the document but I've seen it.

PN229

I'm sorry I think we are talking - - -?---I understand I did.

PN230

Yes, and you were going to make use of those. Can I ask you to have a look at your draft roster?---Yes.

PN231

And on weekends we see that there are on say for Saturday one, two, three, four part-time people. Have you got names for those persons at this stage?---No, I don't.

PN232

So you are - - -?---I am using one person to help out on the weekend on a regular basis and that is Joe Mizzocci but no I have not put permanent names to those positions yet.

PN233

And again you have got three on Sunday?---Yes, I have, yes I do.

PN234

And they are not casuals because they are listed as permanent part time?---That would be the intention purely so that I can regular work flows and work patterns. If people are working a regular shift then throughout the week they can be aware that they need to keep across certain events and they are prepared for that and that will be one of their responsibilities to make sure that they are on top of the news by the time they come in rather than having someone that's sometimes working this weekend or they're not the next. It enables staff to get into a routine and pattern on how they should be working and work together as a team.

PN235

Yes. So I mean you are saying basically casuals and permanent part time are interchangeable?---I'm not saying that as such. I would prefer to see more permanent part time than casual but at the moment we are using a number of casuals.

**** PAUL McINTYRE FXXN MR RYAN

PN236

Sedgman on your roster, is that person backfilling a position?---Yes, she is.

PN237

Which position would that be?---Off the top of my head I couldn't tell you. I think it might be the Adrian Kerr position.

PN238

Or Kathy Harper?---Donna Harper. No, Harper's down here on leave without pay.

PN239

But that person is backfilling?---Yes.

PN240

Now, you also show as industrial Mr Fuller?---Yes, he is now elsewhere.

PN241

He has gone and you also show too to be advised the proposed police and education/health rounds?---Yes, I do.

PN242

So I'm still not clear how you have made provision for recreation leave in your draft roster?---Okay. We've got one on maternity leave, we've got one on leave - - -

PN243

Which is similar if I might say to what is on our roster?---Yes, similar to your roster except that you are using the person that's on maternity leave as backfilled by a casual whereas my person that's on maternity leave is actually having a holiday.

PN244

And who else are you providing to recreation leave?---I've got Harper. I'm not utilising that position. I've also got Chase who is now no longer with us but that is a vacant position and Mr Porter who is backfilling on the international intake desk. I'm not filling in behind him on this roster.

**** PAUL McINTYRE FXXN MR RYAN

PN245

So that is what, four people?---That's four. Then we have that training position and we come back to a point that I made earlier that with the way that I've got the resources utilised under the five-day week I actually have a surplus of leave available to be taken over a year period that amounts to between 70 and 80 weeks. That enables staff to have more flexibility so that when they come to me and say: I want to go on leave, can I have it, I can generally go yes. I can get away some weeks with having six maybe seven people on leave and back down to four or five in others. It gives me a great deal of flexibility to help look after my employees' needs.

PN246

You quoted some figures for a range of months for this year and last year. Have you got the December of last year and the January figures for this year with you as well?---I think I do. If I can just have a quick look at those. You wanted to look at the December and January figures?

PN247

Yes?---Yes, in December by my count we've had on recreation leave as opposed to sick leave or long service leave we had 164 days taken and in January we had 216. Now, that was possible by rostering extremely tightly and I would like to point out at this time that Mr Lopes objected to the number of staff that I had on leave at that time. He thought it was a bit tight, particularly if we had a bushfire or the like but I was trying to work on the basis of a weekend schedule throughout that period and it was a bit tight but I'm pleased to say that I got everyone that I'm aware of that applied for leave was granted it at that time.

PN248

Yes, Mr Lopes wasn't able to override your decision was he?---No, he wasn't

PN249

Unless ours took place?---And that's why they're shown here.

PN250

Let us look at your calculations. You assume 40 people, is that correct?---Yes, I do assume on my five-day week roster proposal I think it works out at about 39.55 positions.

**** PAUL McINTYRE FXXN MR RYAN

PN251

Right. Now, what have you done with the four part timers in that calculation?---I may have overestimated the amount of leave that they would take but the same calculation was worked for both the MEAA sample roster and for the ABC roster.

PN252

Well, we've assumed that there are 30 full time employees on 6 weeks leave giving 180. You have got six part timers, that is the four currently existing and the two proposed to be filled and they are you know 6 weeks times point 5 because they are only working 2 days a week. So that is another 18 weeks and two readers at 4 weeks giving a total of 216 weeks per year?---Mm.

PN253

Do you accept that?---I'll accept that. I still accept that in July there were 68 days of leave taken, there were 82 in August, 63 in September. Under your proposal for rostering leave those people would not have been able to take that leave.

PN254

Right but we look at the situation where we have the Christmas/January limp if you like?---Yes, indeed.

PN255

If we assume nine people take leave over that period then for the rest of the 46 weeks of the year the average is 3.39?---And averages are marvellous, they really are but in reality that is not what's happening. That is what is shown by the amount of leave days that have actually been taken in certain months. You do have months where people aren't that keen on taking leave such as March and April where they've had their Christmas leave. You've got winter, people don't really want to go on leave unless they're skiing. It takes into account you know leave can be taken at all sorts of times.

PN256

But we do know don't we as a fact that every Christmas there's more people away and you operate on a much lower staff level?---Yes, that is the case.

PN257

That is the case year in, year out?---Undoubtedly.

**** PAUL McINTYRE FXXN MR RYAN

PN258

Let us go back to our roster where down the bottom we've got five resignations held against the five new positions?---Yes.

PN259

And those people have gone, they've yet to be appointed but approval has been given. You have gone through the process of appointing those people or appointing people to them?---Yes, I'm still working through that process but yes, we've got five people that we're in the process of discussions with.

PN260

And against those five vacancies we've designated them new one to five?---Yes, I see that.

PN261

And those positions appear in our roster?---Yes, they do.

PN262

And as well we've got three people held against recreation leave?---Yes, you do.

PN263

Right. Now, in your roster we have three positions already being used in the actual roster: Fuller and the police education. Yes?---I've got those positions clearly shown there as being used.

PN264

Yes, and they have to come from the five new, five new people?---Not necessarily. We also have an additional person come across from Triple J in Alison Rea. She's currently on loan to a different area, new media and when she is back that will be another position that we'll be able to - or another person that can fill in that roster.

PN265

Do you expect her back?---If she doesn't then it's a simple matter of replacing that person.

PN266

So there would be a sixth new person?---Yes.

**** PAUL McINTYRE FXXN MR RYAN

PN267

And you have got approval for that have you?---Not at this point, no.

PN268

Right. So you are hoping that you get approval for that?---I would like to think so. This roster is drawn up based that Alison Rea was available and by all means I still have her in my budget until she comes back at the end of the year. I cannot see as far ahead as January at this point in time.

PN269

Right but at this point of time you haven't got approval for that?---It's not a vacancy at this point in time either.

PN270

And she has been out of what, Triple J for some time?---She has but we've also got that money in our budget to backfill as we choose.

PN271

Can I just go back to you, you don't provide any casuals in your roster at all do you?---At this point I have no need for casuals.

PN272

And I mean you will never have any need for casuals at all?---I'm not saying that. If I need casuals where I've got the permanent part timers if they are not working that shift then that can be resourced. I've got the people that are available on leave. If I have a vacancy or a shift that's not filled it's either because someone is sick or they've gone on leave. If someone is sick I have got sufficient resources. The MEAA roster shows or states that - well it shows that six are fine on most days. On the occasional day you can get away with five. Well, on some days I have eight, some days I have seven, some days I have six and there might be one or two days where I have five. Where there are seven or eight staff they can be reallocated to cover gaps or if it's a permanent part timer that is off for whatever reason then I may be able to backfill behind there. I also have a surplus of leave which brings funds or makes funds available to be used if I need to utilise a casual.

**** PAUL McINTYRE FXXN MR RYAN

PN273

So actually what you are saying, you are putting up actually a fake roster. You don't expect what has been put forward to actually be implemented?---What I'm saying to you is that a roster is a living document. As you go along from week to week certain things change, news requirements change. It depends if it's a busy week or a quiet week. Many, many things can happen, many things can change. I may release staff to work in other areas and I may not need to backfill them at that time. I will still have that funding to reallocate. There would hardly be a roster that goes - well not since I've been there. It might be due to my poor rostering but there is not a roster that has not gone up in that newsroom that hasn't been scribbled over and changed on a number of occasions.

PN274

But the starting point is to roster so that people know what their working week is going to be in advance isn't it?---That is the idea of this roster and that's why I've worked on a four-week cycle rotating reporters through shifts so that they can work around that. If I need resources because someone is away or something has happened I can notify staff and discuss with them the possibility of changing as per the EA agreement.

PN275

That requires a shift change only in emergency isn't it caused by an emergency or by sickness?---If I want to approach a staff member, and I would need to look at the EA, but if I wanted to approach a staff member and say: look I've got a shift that I need filled in a couple of weeks, or in 3 or 4 days, are you available, I have every right to do that and if staff are available or are able generally they say yes. There's not many staff that would say no unless they had a very good reason.

PN276

That is the nature of news gathering isn't it?---It is and if they've got a good reason I don't have a problem with that. I will try and find some way around it and again I refer to the surplus in leave so that I've got casual funds or funds available to bring in a casual when I require it but the idea is that I wouldn't be needing too many casuals.

PN277

What is your use of casuals at the moment?---Because we've had five full-time vacancies and we've also got the Epstein and Wilde vacancies and we've got the .75 with Porter the use of casuals is reasonably high but it is still coming in under the amount of money that we've got allocated if those positions were being utilised in a full-time capacity. So we are making a saving.

**** PAUL McINTYRE FXXN MR RYAN

PN278

But at the same time you make no provision in your roster at all for casuals?---I've already covered that.

PN279

Was that a yes or a no?---I made no provision shown on the roster. I do make a provision in the amount of leave that is there to be taken. With the excess amount of leave there I can use some of those funds to use casuals as required.

PN280

And just getting back to the question of the $200,000 you say that is caused by three redundancies, that is staff costs of three people?---And on costs, yes.

PN281

Staff and on costs?---Yes.

PN282

And our roster is based on those three redundancies having taken place?---Yes, it is.

PN283

So the costs of the staff regardless of what the roster is is still $200,000?---No, it's not. That is because what I will have to do under the current roster I've got four holes in breakfast cables on the international intake desk with Mr Porter now moving to a senior-type role on the overnights. I now have Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday mornings that I will have to backfill. I will also have to backfill four shifts: a Monday, Tuesday and a Thursday, Friday afternoon on the cable shifts. So I will be using the funds that have been saved by the three redundancies to pay for that. Your roster is based on an optimal situation where all positions are filled, that no one is on leave, that there is - - -

PN284

Well, that is not true is it?---Sorry, you've got three people on leave but there is no account there of anyone being on sick leave or family leave. There's no provision shown for that.

PN285

Nor does yours have any provision for sick leave does it?---Yes, it does.

**** PAUL McINTYRE FXXN MR RYAN

PN286

Where does that show up?---The provision for sick leave is shown where in fact I have seven, eight people rostered at different times of the week. If people are sick those resources can be reallocated and I come back again to the amount of savings that we can make through the holiday or rec leave entitlement that we will have additional funds up our sleeve to cover those shifts if required.

PN287

And you have got those funds at the moment?---Yes, I do.

PN288

And if our roster was introduced you'd still have those funds wouldn't you?---No, I wouldn't. The reason why I wouldn't have those funds if your roster was introduced is because all the vacant positions that I currently have would be utilised in your roster. I would have no real leeway to go about finding additional funds to employ people to backfill someone that is sick.

PN289

You have got funds at the moment? You admitted that, yes?---I have funds at the moment purely because I am not utilising the Epstein or the Wilde position or the Porter or the Rea position.

PN290

You have funds available as we speak?---I will state again just so it's perfectly clear that I have funds available purely because I am not backfilling the Epstein, the Wilde, the Porter or the Alison Rea position. Therefore the funds that would normally be associated with those people are available in my budget to be utilised if I need to use casuals to cover the sick leave.

PN291

Those funds are available now?---I've already stated yes, those funds are available because I have Epstein, Wilde, Porter and Rea not being backfilled.

PN292

Those funds are available to be used aren't they?---Yes, they are right there but they will not be available under your roster because those positions will be filled.

PN293

If somebody was employed tomorrow you could use funds couldn't you?---How do you mean? I don't follow where you're coming from.

**** PAUL McINTYRE FXXN MR RYAN

PN294

You have got a bucket of money available, you just admitted, that you can use for backfilling positions or hiring casuals?---I have got money available when I am not filling all my positions under the roster that's put forward by the MEAA to be an efficient and effective solution to counter the five-day week proposal. All those positions are being utilised therefore no, I will not have a bucket of money. I will have an empty bucket.

PN295

Have you got a bucket now that has got money in it?---I have a bucket now that has money in it purely because we have got Epstein, Wilde and Porter along with Rea not being backfilled.

PN296

So you have funds available?---I have funds available because I have Epstein, Wilde, Porter and Rea not being backfilled. That is correct.

PN297

And you have got approval to fill five positions?---The five positions, yes I have got approval for that.

PN298

Right and you have got funding for that?---I have got funding for those five positions, yes.

PN299

No further questions, your Honour.

PN300

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thanks, Mr Ryan. Ms Mansfield?

<FURTHER RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MANSFIELD [2.16pm]

PN301

MS MANSFIELD: Just to clarify, Mr McIntyre, you were asked a question about the limitations on your ability to make roster changes. Is it your understanding that your ability is limited to situations of emergency or shortage of employees?---That's not my understanding.

**** PAUL McINTYRE FRXN MS MANSFIELD

PN302

And what is the other circumstance in which you might change a roster at short notice?---If I had a story or something that breaks that I need extra resources then I'm entitled to ask people or to bring casuals to ensure that I've got sufficient resources to cover that breaking story or the requirements of that day.

PN303

But I think you suggested that was subject to the employees' attitude?---Yes.

PN304

That is your understanding of your ability?---No, if - I like to be reasonably diplomatic about it. I'm not going to force an employee to work if they clearly object and they have a sound reason. I would take exception if I asked an employee and on a regular basis they have no real reason. They just say: you know, I don't feel like it. Then I would have a problem with that.

PN305

Right and you were asked a number of times about funds that you have available at the moment to you under the current four-day roster. What happens to those funds if you implement the MEAA roster?---Those funds disappear purely because the vacant positions would all be filled and they would have to be filled to make sure that that roster would work.

PN306

I have no further questions.

PN307

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thanks. Thanks again, Mr McIntyre?---Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.18pm]

PN308

MS MANSFIELD: That is all the evidence that the ABC seeks to call in reply in relation to that roster.

PN309

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Right. Now, Mr Ryan?

PN310

MR RYAN: We have no further evidence, your Honour.

PN311

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, that leads us to submissions I take it. What is the estimate of their duration?

PN312

MS MANSFIELD: I think I would be a couple of hours, your Honour. Mr Ryan and I haven't had an opportunity to have a chat about this yet, your Honour, but we don't have the benefit of transcript and there were quite a number of numerical issues that arose in cross-examination. I would be assisted by transcript but we wouldn't like to delay too long.

PN313

THE VICE PRESIDENT: No. Well, I mean if we are not going to finish today we are going to need another day aren't we?

PN314

MS MANSFIELD: Well, I expect that I would take up most of the afternoon if I started now and I would not have the benefit in transcript if I tried.

PN315

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN316

MR RYAN: We would concur with that, your Honour, that I think transcript would be beneficial to the parties.

PN317

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, well that is probably right.

PN318

MS MANSFIELD: I'm in your Honour's hands as to whether we make oral submissions on another day or some written submissions to you.

PN319

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I think it would be preferable to adjourn to another day for the submissions so let us just see when that might be. If you two can tell me what dates you have got I will let you know.

PN320

MR RYAN: I only have a problem with all of next week, your Honour.

PN321

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Pardon?

PN322

MR RYAN: All of next week is a problem for me but after that I can make adjustments if needs be.

PN323

THE VICE PRESIDENT: All right.

PN324

MS MANSFIELD: In the week after I cannot do the 12th.

PN325

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Right. How about Friday the 14th? Could we comfortably finish in a day?

PN326

MS MANSFIELD: That is my estimate.

PN327

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, all right. Well, 10 am then on Friday, 14 September. Could I just ask the parties to do this apart from also preparing their submissions in the mean time? Now that you have heard in detail the views about the competing rosters would you mind having some further discussions and seeing if it is possible to reach any accommodation over the matter. I think because of the detailed evidence there is so much more information available now than there might have been when we had the brief discussion back in July. Subject to that then I will just adjourn the proceedings until 10 am in Sydney on Friday, 14 September. Thank you.

ADJOURNED UNTIL FRIDAY, 14 SEPTEMBER 2001 [2.21pm]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

CHARLES NAYLOR, ON FORMER AFFIRMATION PN66
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MANSFIELD PN66
EXHIBIT #ABC8 DOCUMENT RE EXPLANATION OF PAYMENTS TO MR PORTER PN73
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RYAN PN87
FURTHER RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MANSFIELD PN95
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RYAN PN99
WITNESS WITHDREW PN109
WALTER HAMILTON, ON FORMER OATH PN111
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MANSFIELD PN111
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RYAN PN131
EXHIBIT #MEAA20 DOCUMENT PREVIOUSLY MARKED MFI 1 PN140
FURTHER RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MANSFIELD PN193
WITNESS WITHDREW PN198
PAUL McINTYRE, ON FORMER OATH PN205
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MANSFIELD PN205
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RYAN PN222
FURTHER RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MANSFIELD PN301
WITNESS WITHDREW PN308