C2001/4418, Transcript of Proceedings [2001] AIRCTrans 2418 (21 September 2001)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114J MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
DX 305 Melbourne Tel:[phone] Fax:[phone]

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N 0013

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER TOLLEY

C2001/4418

TEXTILE, CLOTHING AND FOOTWEAR
UNION OF AUSTRALIA

and

SHAW INDUSTRIES AUSTRALIA
PTY LIMITED

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of a dispute re transfer of employees and the
closure of the Sunshine site

MELBOURNE

11.33 AM, FRIDAY, 31 AUGUST 2001

Continued from 27.8.01

PN112

THE COMMISSIONER: I note the appearances are unchanged and,before I hear from anyone, Ms Wiles, when the matter was last before the Commission you made a lot of statements about persons not being allowed to attend this Commission. Did you receive a fax from Shaw Industries dated 28 August 2001?

PN113

MS WILES: Yes, we did, your Honour.

PN114

THE COMMISSIONER: What have you got to say?

PN115

MS WILES: I will just get a copy of the fax. Your Honour, while I am waiting for the fax, as you will see there are two shop stewards here today.

PN116

THE COMMISSIONER: ..... There were allegations made in this fax, and if this fax is correct the Commission was misled by your union. It is not going to rest there.

PN117

MS WILES: Your Honour, I am just waiting to get the fax.

PN118

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, you should have been prepared for it.

PN119

MS PETERSON: Excuse me, Commissioner, could I have that date again please?

PN120

THE COMMISSIONER: .....

PN121

MS WILES: Your Honour, it is my understanding that normally when delegates are released that they await the supervisor to speak to them, to say that they are allowed to leave. It has been said to them in the past they are not to leave their machines until they are given permission to leave and that on this day in fact they were not given permission, they were not advised that they could leave their machines.

PN122

THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Wiles, do you know what the term pulling a low bow means?

PN123

MS WILES: Yes, I am aware of - - -

PN124

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that is what you are doing. Do not belabour the point. Make sure of your facts. If your union officials are telephoned by people from a site, make sure your officials return the calls. Otherwise do not come whingeing to this Commission about what you think may have happened.

PN125

MS WILES: Your Honour, I am not aware of what you are referring to in - - -

PN126

THE COMMISSIONER: I will hear your report about the negotiations and I will have that back.

PN127

MS WILES: Your Honour, with respect, we do have the two shop stewards here who,in their view,were not granted permission to leave, and if you wish to hear some evidence from them, I am quite happy to lead evidence from them about that issue.

PN128

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that is a moot point now. It has been raised and you have had a chance to talk to them.

PN129

MS WILES: So do you wish me to proceed with the report-back?

PN130

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. I already said that.

PN131

MS WILES: Your Honour, since the previous hearing the organiser, Dorothy Peterson, has had an opportunity to speak with affected members at all the sites, and the union and the company and the delegates have also met this morning at 8.30 to discuss the issues which raised. In terms of summarising the main issues, there is probably five main issues which were raised by some of the members and discussed with the company this morning. The first issue relates to the change in hours of four members, and those members are Joe Maveric, Zaim Abozovic, Peter Godlevski and Goran Velevski.

PN132

Joe Maveric and Zaim Abozovic, the first one moved from blending to blending and the other one has been transferred from carding to blending. Their former hours were 7 am to 3 pm and they are now doing hours of 6 am to 2 pm. With Peter Godlevski and Goran Velevski, Peter has been moved from spinning to blending and Goran has been moved from blending to blending. Formerly they were performing hours of 7 am to 3 pm and they have now been asked to perform hours of 10 pm to 6 pm - sorry, 10 am to 6 pm.

PN133

All these members are unhappy with the change in hours, in particular Peter and Goran, they both have concerns about - that the span of hours between 10 an to 6 pm prevents them attending, for instance, the bank in business hours, and also they have concerns about starting at 10 am as the approaching summer months, in terms of the heat during the day. When this issue was raised with the company this morning, we were advised that they are currently in the process of working out the required shift hours. They do anticipate that eventually the area will revert to a standard 7 am to 3 pm.

PN134

When we asked for clarification about when that might occur, they could not give us a particular time or date when it might occur. They did indicate that they were looking at a range of alternatives in respect to the hours, and one of those alternatives may be rotating the times from week to week. In respect to the second issue raised by the union this morning with the company, it relates to the employee Goran Velevski. As I have indicated previously, he moved from blending operations at North Sunshine to the blending operations at Braybrook.

PN135

His main concern though is that since the transfer he has been suffering from an increased frequency of nose-bleeds due to the increase in dust. It is my understanding that he is working with different materials. He has previously been working with semi-worsted yarn and he is now working with wool, and he believes that is the reason why he has had the increase in nose-bleeds. He did raise this with the organiser yesterday and the company have given us a commitment that they will be speaking to him about what other alternatives may be possible in his case.

PN136

Those alternatives may include a different type of protective mask or it may eventually involve a transfer to another section where there is less dust and working with different yarns. The third main issue relates to training which was raised previously at the hearing on Monday. The example was given this morning by the union in relation to the employee Anthony Webb who is also shop steward and present here today. He was actually transferred from blending to the dyehouse, and his experience has been that he was originally given two hours' training each day for one week in relation to what is called the unidryer machine.

PN137

After one week he was then asked to run the machine by himself, and when he commenced to do that, within 10 or 15 minutes the machine became inoperative. He is not sure whether it was to do with the machine or his own lack of experience in operating the machine. But certainly it highlights a concern about members being left to operate a machine effectively by themselves with little training. When we raised the issue with the company this morning, a figure was accepted that in terms of the person responsible for training sometimes they are on a different shift, and options may need to be considered about how people are properly trained in an ongoing way.

PN138

There are four other employees who have been transferred from the twisting to the tufting area, and those employees are Nada Atanasovska, Karanfila Dimovska, Doris Hili and Marika Sutulovic. They all currently work on day shift as they did previously at the North Sunshine site. The work that they are currently performing at the moment is loading the creels and gluing. They are not currently operating the tufting machines but they have been advised by the company that that will be required of them in the near future.

PN139

Certainly the union raised with the company the issue about how these four women were going to be trained in the operation of this machine. I think it was commonly accepted between the parties this morning that in terms of operating a twisting machine there is a period of approximately three to four months - - -

PN140

THE COMMISSIONER: I have got no argument about the need to properly train people.

PN141

MS WILES: Excuse me?

PN142

THE COMMISSIONER: I have got no argument whatsoever about the need to properly train people.

PN143

MS WILES: Yes. If I can just explain there is a time lapse issue here.

PN144

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN145

MS WILES: It was commonly accepted that it takes between three to four months to properly train someone in this area, and the issue was raised whether if one operator was going to train these four women, there could be a significant delay in training them all sufficiently over the next six to 12 months. The company's response was that generally their approach in this area is to familiarise the employees with the creel operations and all the operations in the department and then progressively move the employees to specific training on the twisting machine.

PN146

The company did give a commitment this morning that more than one trainer will be deployed to train the four women and that those trainer operators involved would be paid the appropriate training allowance. The fourth issue raised with the company relates to two employees who were formally employed as leading hands at the North Sunshine site. And those employees are Cathy Duricic and also Quan Tran. In Cathy's case, as I say she was formerly a leading hand material handler at North Sunshine. She is currently not performing leading hand duties at Braybrook; she is currently working on a hanking machine.

PN147

The company has advised her that it is expecting that she will be required to operate a twisting machine in the future and obviously she will need to be trained to do that. When the issue was raised with the company this morning, they indicated that initially they believed that her transfer would be temporary, but now that it is confirmed they would need to put some thought into how they actually utilised her leading hand skills at the Braybrook site. The same issue applies to the second employee, Quan Tran. It was indicated by the company that even though they do have an excess number of leading hands at the moment, because of the expanded afternoon shift at Braybrook there may be a role for him there, but that has not been confirmed.

PN148

There was another issue raised that it did come to the union's attention that apparently some work was still being performed at the North Sunshine site and our information was that work was being performed on the stipple blend machine. When the issue was raised with the company this morning, they advised us that that was finishing off a specific commercial order and that in their view that machine would no longer be operating and that no more work was to be performed at the North Sunshine site.

PN149

Your Honour, in summary, I guess the union still is concerned about the time frame, particularly in respect of the training of the employees at - - -

PN150

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, that needs addressing. I cannot quibble about that.

PN151

MS WILES: Yes. I might leave it at that point.

PN152

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Mr Dalton or Mr Kite, whoever.

PN153

MR KITE: Yes, Mr Commissioner. Those issues that have been raised this morning were issues that we were in the main aware of and were putting in an approach to deal with. Certainly some of the training issues are ones that our approach has been initially when it was considered a temporary transfer, people were put in the positions which took less training and operators were involved in providing the necessary training for those. But as we have now made that decision to close North Sunshine completely and those positions are now permanently based at Braybrook, we have put our normal regime of training in place using the operator trainers leading hands and putting people in - training them up appropriately.

PN154

With the tufting operation, in particular the four employees, they will be - and it is something that they have expressed themselves - trained in the operating of the tufting equipment, the tufting machines themselves. That will take three to four months and we will put in place a number of operator trainers to do that, as we have said this morning. With the blending operation, which is where we have some varied shifts, the discussions that we have had involve the people that were existing at Braybrook also on a rotational basis, or working outside the 7 till 3, which is the sort of standard day shift hours.

PN155

And we will look at the issues with individuals who have concerns about the particular hours, and if there are concerns such as banking then we can make arrangements for those people.

PN156

THE COMMISSIONER: Some persons might have child-minding problems as well.

PN157

MR KITE: Yes, well, we have actually - - -

PN158

THE COMMISSIONER: Or ongoing education problems for their own advancement.

PN159

MR KITE: We actually have had some people who did raise child-minding concerns and one employee comes to mind whose hours at North Sunshine were 11 pm till 7 am, but when we moved them to Braybrook they felt that that additional travel would make it difficult for them to arrange for child-minding facilities, so we adapted their hours and they are now working 10.45 pm till 6.45 am. So we are mindful of that and have already made changes and we will in fact discuss that with the people. The one that does seem a little of a concern in relation to an employee who is suggesting that he is suffering from blood noses.

PN160

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that is a matter for medical advice, not for the Commission, except to say it would be a very foolish person who kept that person working in an area if it was aggravating some sort of recognised illness.

PN161

MR KITE: Yes, absolutely. We have - that came to light this morning. I have had some discussions with the department manager already and he is going to talk to that employee and see if possible we can find a solution for him. If it means moving to a different department, then so be it.

PN162

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I strongly suggest it might mean a medical examination before you move him anywhere, just to cover your own backside if nothing else.

PN163

MR KITE: Certainly.

PN164

THE COMMISSIONER: And at least protect his future.

PN165

MR KITE: Certainly. Now, just with the two employees who were formerly leading hands at North Sunshine, the duties that they were initially transferred certainly did not involve performing leading hand functions, although there was never any intention and it has never been suggested that those people would actually lose the rate of pay associated with that. Now, that we have made the permanent decision to close North Sunshine and those people will be based in those departments, we will in fact look at trying to utilise their skills that they have obtained in relation to leading hand duties, plus we also have some equipment that we are moving from North Sunshine which we have not relocated at Braybrook yet, and once that occurs that will free up some other opportunities in that area.

PN166

And as to the issue as to the work that was performed at North Sunshine - - -

PN167

THE COMMISSIONER: I think Ms Wiles has covered that.

PN168

MR KITE: Yes, I do not think we need to cover that. So essentially I think the issues that have been raised have been transitional issues. I think they are issues that we can address. They are not issues that are new to us; we address transitional issues and issues with employees every second day, so we are comfortable that we can work through those.

PN169

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you, Mr Kite. Well, look, it is to everyone's benefit that adequate training be given, not just to the company and the employee, but to me as a taxpayer. Because if people are not trained properly they will hurt themselves at work and I will have to pay more taxes to cover their workers' compensation. A fact of life; I am not being selfish. It is a cost to the community if you do not train people; it is a plus to a company and it is a plus to the employees if you train people. Now, I am sure Mr ..... has got no argument about that from his former life.

PN170

In respect to the change of hours, if members have got general concerns and you say you are trying to address those concerns, I have got no arguments with that and you are not outside any agreements in my view. But could I strongly suggest you should involve the organiser as much as possible, because often things coming from the organiser to the people - and that is not usurping your management rights - that you discuss with the organiser are better received at the workplace. And that is not saying they should not trust you, but people are people, and those ..... I have said what I have said about that.

PN171

If you are saying it is company's intention to maintain the people at leading hand rates and use their expertise as more plant comes on line as it is moved from Sunshine, I do not see there should be argument with that providing once again they have got adequate training if they need it. I repeat what I said the last time you were last before me; I am not going to condone the selling of jobs. I do not believe employers should be allowed to make people redundant; they should be required to retrain people, otherwise pay a huge impost to the government. So I would have to pay more taxes.

PN172

But I just repeat my suggestion; you involve Ms Peterson in those discussions. I might smoothe the water. Anything to add, Ms Wiles?

PN173

MS WILES: No, your Honour.

PN174

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Kite.

PN175

MR KITE: No, Mr Commissioner.

PN176

THE COMMISSIONER: The Commission is adjourned.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [11.53am]