C2001/5349, Transcript of Proceedings [2001] AIRCTrans 3063 (14 November 2001)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114J MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
DX 305 Melbourne Tel:[phone] Fax:[phone]

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N 0989

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT LACY

C2001/5349

APPLICATION FOR EQUAL REMUNERATION ORDERS

Application under section 170BD of the Act
by the Community and Public Sector Union for
an order re equal remuneration for work of
equal value

MELBOURNE

11.37 AM, MONDAY, 29 OCTOBER 2001

PN1

MR M. PERICA: I appear for the CPSU with MR P. MUIR.

PN2

MS L. RUSSELL: I seek leave to appear for Museum Victoria.

PN3

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you, Ms Russell. Any objection to Ms Russell having leaving.

PN4

MR PERICA: No objection.

PN5

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Leave is granted, Ms Russell. Yes, Mr Perica.

PN6

MR PERICA: Your Honour, we have broadly got a consensus about what -the way we wish this matter to proceed. Perhaps I might just say a little bit for the record. Although the genesis of this matter derives from a matter to do with a female carpenter by the name of Ms Winkler, we see the problem as a systemic one. We have attempted over the last month or so to negotiate this matter directly. It got to the stage where we were told, well, you have your remedy, so this is how it has got here. I think, may be, the best - now the other side has come and indicate they wish the matter to proceed firstly by conciliation, with which we are more than happy. But as I say, we were told that - sort of, there was no scope for it to be conciliated before.

PN7

We are happy to do that, if you have available dates. And then perhaps if we get nowhere with the conciliation, the way forward is that we could do some consent directions or something like that. So perhaps if we go off the record and can have a conversation now.

PN8

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Is there any urgency or - - -

PN9

MR PERICA: There is. I must say, not pressing, but there is some urgency of getting it on. As I say, we are still - the situation is in a state of flux, because there is recruitment and appointments ongoing.

PN10

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is what I was concerned about, yes.

PN11

MR PERICA: So that has an impact for us in that it progressively changes the shape of the case that we would otherwise make.

PN12

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN13

MR PERICA: And it also, sort of, it makes it somewhat more pressing, but I would not say it was red hot urgency, no.

PN14

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right.

PN15

MR PERICA: I understand the - our panel is fairly under the hammer at the moment, so - - -

PN16

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That might improve shortly, though.

PN17

MR PERICA: I would not say - you know, there is no necessity for the matter to be listed in two weeks, say, but the conciliation, obviously, we would prefer to have that sooner rather than later.

PN18

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, I will adjourn into conciliation this morning, subject to what Ms Russell has to say.

PN19

MR PERICA: Yes.

PN20

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Ms Russell.

PN21

MS RUSSELL: Yes, your Honour, there is agreement about the way forward. In terms of conciliation, our preference would actually be for a date to be set in the future, in that we do not necessarily have the people here today, your Honour, who would like to be involved in that conciliation conference. The museum was not actually provided with a copy of the application. I managed to get a copy of it from the Commission late on Thursday, but because of the unavailability of some Museum Victoria representatives, I have only had a short discussion with them about the application.

PN22

There is just one other thing I should say, your Honour, that I see that in terms of the orders sought, orders 2 and 3 are broadly a request or related to a proposed review of various practices of Museum Victoria. While it is certainly correct, as Mr Perica said, that there has been quite a number of discussions about Ms Winkler, my instructions are that there have not been discussions about this proposed review. So, your Honour, really the position is that we think the next best step is for there to be a conciliation conference so we can discussion both Ms Winkler's position and, secondly, what I would call, sort of, broader claim for review, but our request would be that that be set down some time in the future, subject to everyone's diaries. If the Commission pleases.

PN23

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, you are not prepared or you are not in a position this morning to proceed with conciliation on the matter?

PN24

MS RUSSELL: It would be our preference not to, your Honour. If it is necessary we can, but our preference would be to have other people here than those that are currently here today.

PN25

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Perica, what do you say about that?

PN26

MR PERICA: Look, we do not refute. I mean, the thing was faxed.

PN27

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, I mean, if the people are not here.

PN28

MR PERICA: We do not refute anything about the - we understand the state's position. We are comfortable with a date being set and we can have a negotiation.

PN29

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay, because there is not much point in going ahead if the people that have to make the decisions are not here.

PN30

MR PERICA: No.

PN31

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Look, I can indicate at this stage that - I probably do not have a date before 19 November, but I may be wrong about that. I will have my associate contact you, I think, and discuss with you convenient or mutually convenient dates for the parties and we will try and fit that in with whatever I have got to do here. How much time do you think it might take for a conciliation?

PN32

MR PERICA: If we had, sort of, two or three hours or even an hour.

PN33

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Because there will be some dispute, I suspect, about the - whether or not the work is of equal value. I do not know. I may be - - -

PN34

MR PERICA: I think that as far as Ms Winkler's situation is concerned, I understand it to be - the argument of the state to be that, you know, it is a question of skills there. There is a skills deficit rather than, say, the work.

PN35

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is the same? Is that agreed. Does it work the same? I see somebody nodding.

PN36

MS RUSSELL: No, your Honour.

PN37

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, I did not think that would be a given - - -

PN38

MS RUSSELL: No, it is not. Certainly both people are cabinet makers, but there is an argument both about the work being performed and also the skills of the respective people as well.

PN39

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right. Well, what I will do is arrange for a date that allows us either a morning or an afternoon. An afternoon might be better and my associate can discuss that with the parties or proposed representatives. Very well. Is there anything else today?

PN40

MR PERICA: No, your Honour.

PN41

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Perhaps if - when we do arrange that, I will organise for some directions to be sent out about specifying what issues need to be resolved. The matter is adjourned to a date to be fixed.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [11.45am]