C2001/4811, Transcript of Proceedings [2001] AIRCTrans 3487 (12 December 2001)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114 MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
DX 305 Melbourne Tel:[phone] Fax:[phone]

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N 1485

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER SIMMONDS

C2001/4811

THE AUSTRALASIAN MEAT INDUSTRY
EMPLOYEES UNION

and

EMP PTY LTD

Notification pursuant to section 99
of the Act of a dispute re the alleged
dismissal of four members at EMP Pty Ltd
on Tuesday, 11 September

MELBOURNE

12.45 PM, TUESDAY, 27 NOVEMBER 2001

Continued from 28.9.01

PN625

THE COMMISSIONER: Are there any changes to appearances in this matter?

PN626

MR DAVEY: Not from the union, sir.

PN627

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Mr Oravec, I think you actually originally appeared in this matter.

PN628

MR ORAVEC: I don't think - - -

PN629

THE COMMISSIONER: And then the appearance was withdrawn. Yes, Mr Oravec, you originally appeared and then there was, to put it politely I think, a withdrawal of appearances.

PN630

MR DAVEY: Sir, I may have made a mistake in this, but it was our intention to call back on C2001/4813.

PN631

THE COMMISSIONER: Not 4811?

PN632

MR DAVEY: This is a matter that canvassed a number of issues in relation to the use of labour hire companies and lack of work for our people at PNR.

PN633

THE COMMISSIONER: No, you are quite right. It says 4813 on your letter.

PN634

MR DAVEY: We are not having a good day.

PN635

THE COMMISSIONER: There is no 4813. Apparently my associate rang your office to clarify it and was told it was 4811.

PN636

MR DAVEY: Well, I apologise for that, but look, in any event, if I - - -

PN637

THE COMMISSIONER: Which one is it?

PN638

MR DAVEY: 4813. But if you allow me five seconds to explain I don't think there will be a concern.

PN639

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, okay. But was there a 4813?

PN640

MR ORAVEC: I have, if I may respectfully - 4811 - - -

PN641

THE COMMISSIONER: No, hang on. We will just get the CMS checked.

PN642

MR ORAVEC: I have only this.

PN643

THE COMMISSIONER: 4813 is a dispute between the Association of Professional Engineers, Scientists and Managers of Australia and Australian Government Analytical Laboratories.

PN644

MR DAVEY: Well, I apologise if there was an error in the notification which I don't have with me, but my intention was to raise a matter of three people that have been put off the week before last in the context of overall disputation that we have had covered by another C number that ended up with a recommendation of the establishment of the consultative committee and regular meetings, etcetera, etcetera, which I thought was 4813, but it may well have been another number. Given that the company is aware of the issues that we wish to raise today, broadly speaking, I don't know that that is a particular problem for anybody other than from a bookkeeping perspective.

PN645

As I - you know, we could have issued or asked for new proceedings, but the reason I didn't want to do that, sir, is it canvassed a lot of ground that has already been covered, and if we issued new proceedings it might not have even been before the Commission as currently constituted.

PN646

THE COMMISSIONER: Hold on. I just don't have the benefit of the transcript or anything else in regard to that matter without the number, but - - -

PN647

MR DAVEY: It may well be that that is not a problem.

PN648

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay.

PN649

MR DAVEY: And I am sure, you know, that the Commission will address - - -

PN650

THE COMMISSIONER: I will reserve your rights, Mr Oravec, in regard to this.

PN651

MR DAVEY: The matter - we sought relisting as I say because matters arising out of what we intend to put today we believe have already arisen covered by the existing dispute, but in any event the matter is before you pursuant to clause 8.3 of the PNR and AMIEU Enterprise Agreement 1998, and is before you at the last stage of the dispute-settling procedure. That is, it is here for hearing and settlement. We have been through the dispute-settling procedure. The matters have been raised with the company on a number of different levels.

PN652

The problem concerns the dismissals of union members Lou Chadwick, Harry Turner and Charlie Adams on Monday, 12 November 2001. These three employees were boners. The company through Mr Bernie Cabral has told the union that they were put off as the company had too many boners and not enough slicers. Sir, it is our submission that there are a number of ways such a problem, if in fact it is genuine, could have been resolved without resorting to sacking people.

PN653

Sir, firstly, most of the boners that work at this particular room of EMP can in fact slice and it is certainly my instructions that in the main if requested to do so they will and certainly if it was put to them that to save the jobs of some of their workmates they give up boning on a temporary basis and go to slicing that they certainly would. One of the three who is here today, Mr Chadwick, has certainly done that on a number of occasions. Mr Chadwick is a person who sliced for 15 years, and certainly in recent times has gone slicing even though he is classified as a boner to assist in any problems that might arise out of a shortfall of slicers being occasioned.

PN654

Secondly, and these are matters that have been put to the company, other slicers could have been employed from the afternoon shift. Mr Cabral has said on a number of occasions that the people on the afternoon shift perform competently and we simply put to Mr Cabral that a couple could have been transferred across from afternoon shift to the day shift, and not only would he resolve the problem of the shortfall of slicers, not having sufficient slicers, but he would also save his operation a considerable amount of money as by having the people on the day shift as permanent employees eventually they would not incur the penalty for the 25 per cent casual loading or indeed the 15 per cent additional payment for the afternoon shift.

PN655

Sir, the work is broadly speaking the same. There is no reason that that couldn't be done to resolve the problem and save these three people their jobs. Another alternative way around the problem that was put by the union to the company, that new slicers or retrenched slicers could be employed. There has been a vast pool of ex-EMP workers who were retrenched after the fire on June 20 who have not been re-employed and there is a number there that would willingly take up the position if there was a shortfall of slicers which again in turn would mean that these three boners could have been kept on.

PN656

Sir, these arguments have been canvassed by myself with Mr Cabral personally and also at a meeting of the consultative committee on Monday, November 19. Mr Cabral has said that when he has asked the boners to go slicing they have refused. Certainly my instructions on speaking to the people last week down at the boning room is that that is certainly not correct in a generic sense. There may have been one or two boners that have objected to going slicing on a temporary - on that basis, but it was certainly not put to them, as I indicated before, on the basis that if they didn't do that some of their mates would be sent up the road.

PN657

On the very day that the company claimed it didn't have enough work for the boners due to the lack of slicers, my instructions are that a slicer or a boner who can slice, by the name of Sheldon Maxfield, wanted a job, was on the day shift, would have given the company an extra slicer, was told that there was no work for him on the day shift, and the company ended up giving him a job on the afternoon. And I would put to the Commission that is a stark contradiction of the arguments put forward by the company as to why these people had to be laid off.

PN658

At the end of that meeting of the consultative committee I believe that Mr Cabral indicated he was going to give consideration to the arguments that were put, sir, but nothing has come of that. None of the three have been rehired. At least one of them has attended to casual gate and not been hired. Sir, we put that and these again are arguments that have been canvassed previously, that if there is any shortfall of work, and that was never suggested up until now, that if there was any shortfall of work and retrenchments to take place, then that should come off the casual employees that work on the afternoon shift.

PN659

Of recent times my understanding is that the Cabral and Catalfamo group of companies, of which there are many, have continued to expand their operations. My understanding is a related company certainly, although it is in the name of somebody else, a company clearly run by that group of directors has leased the Yarrawonga Meatworks, so their ability to slaughter stock for boning at Industry Park Drive has been increased, not diminished, and I can also - and I have got a copy of it, but I don't think it is in dispute, I won't produce it at this particular stage unless it is denied, but the afternoon shift, two days after these people have been put off on the day shift, the afternoon shift advertised for more boners and slicers to work on the chains at Industry Park Drive.

PN660

I have a copy of that advert. As I say, I don't think that that will be contested. Clearly, there is no real reason why these three people should have been retrenched. On the day of the retrenchment one of the three, Mr Turner, spoke to Mr Ilievski, the supervisor, and there was discussion as to the reasons why he was being retrenched, and the gist of what Mr Ilievski said to Mr Turner was that the reason for the retrenchment was nothing to do with lack of stock or anything like that, but because there weren't enough slicers.

PN661

Now, clearly that situation could have been remedied without going to the drastic stage of removing the livelihood of three permanent employees. These are people that have given good service to the company. They should still be working. They could still be working. There is plenty of opportunity out there for the problem to be resolved without them being sent down the road, and it would appear on the face of it at any rate to be yet another attempt to try and cut back the numbers of the day shift and increase the numbers on the afternoon shift which appears to be still continuing, and despite their efforts to have that matter resolved.

PN662

Mr Dove, as I understand it, works delegate, has supplied the company with a list of the boners who are prepared to slice on rotational basis if there is a shortfall of slicers, and that again is another manner in which the matter could have been resolved. So, broadly speaking, those are the issues at the end of the day, we seek a settlement of a dispute that involves the reinstatement of these three people, as the Commission pleases.

PN663

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you, Mr Davey. Mr Oravec.

PN664

MR ORAVEC: Sir, these three people in question have been put off for simple reason because there is no job for them. On many occasions, quite a few days, the company has far too many boners and not enough slicers. Matter of fact, on many occasions boners have been sent back, three to four boners on many occasions each day have been sent back. Now, when these people have been put off it has been done, and Mr Lebovic, who was the acting delegate at that stage of the union has been clearly consulted.

PN665

He has been told, the three names have been given to him with full particulars, they got a form of the hiring company because Mr Cabral approached the hiring company. The forms have been issued to Mr Lebovic, so these three people could fill these forms and apply for the job with the afternoon shift, because the afternoon shift is run by this Tekforce company and they are the people who are hiring people. So, that was given to them. These have been retrenched strictly with a seniority aspect.

PN666

As far as the ability to slice, my instruction is that one of them, for instance, Mr Lou Chadwick, has been put back slicing, but he was not competent as a slicer. For that reason he was one of the three who have been put off. I hear here the name of Mr Maxfield. I have been - my instruction is that actually Mr Maxfield is not a slicer. He has been boning some calves, that is what I understand.

[1.01pm]

PN667

Now, the situation where this hiring company had been advertised, well, okay, they are advertising as we, on many occasions explained us, it was explained to us by them, they not are only the hiring company for our establishment, they have many establishment where they employing boners and slicers. Where they employing labourers, and many of them came from interstate. Even here, we received 3 or 4 boners and slicers from Queensland, through the hiring company. So, from our point of view.

PN668

THE COMMISSIONER: And if they can get slicers, why can't you?

PN669

MR ORAVEC: Beg your pardon?

PN670

THE COMMISSIONER: If they can get slicers, why can't you?

PN671

MR ORAVEC: Well, yes, but I just said, they just came, they had been recruited somewhere in Queensland - - -

PN672

THE COMMISSIONER: No, but as I understand it, you are saying that the reason these three were put off was because there was an imbalance of boners and slicers.

PN673

MR ORAVEC: Exactly.

PN674

THE COMMISSIONER: Are you saying that the company - when did the company last advertise for slicers.

PN675

MR ORAVEC: We didn't advertise for slicers. We don't - we don't advertise - - -

PN676

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, if you have got a shortage of slicers, and you have got to put people off because of that - - -

PN677

MR ORAVEC: Yes.

PN678

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - why wouldn't you advertise?

PN679

MR ORAVEC: Yes. Well then, okay, so we employ another 4 slices, to ratio gets bigger; but then, we haven't got a beef to bone out. There is not enough stock for - - -

PN680

THE COMMISSIONER: So, that is your evidence, that there is not sufficient stock to - - -

PN681

MR ORAVEC: Stock to - to have 4 more - - -

PN682

THE COMMISSIONER: You appreciate this is being challenged, from the other side?

PN683

MR ORAVEC: Yes, yes I do.

PN684

THE COMMISSIONER: So you are able to bring evidence about this, are you; that you haven't got - - -

PN685

MR ORAVEC: Well - - -

PN686

THE COMMISSIONER: That the company hasn't got access to sufficient stock to employ the people.

PN687

MR ORAVEC: Yes. Your Honour, the - don't forget, we doing the job on the day shift is done strictly for Coles.

PN688

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN689

MR ORAVEC: And Coles give us the livestock; not actually livestock which we then kill in the establishment - - -

PN690

THE COMMISSIONER: So on day shift, you have only ever cut for Coles, is that what you are saying.

PN691

MR ORAVEC: Yes, that is exactly correct.

PN692

THE COMMISSIONER: You have never cut anything for anyone else.

PN693

MR ORAVEC: That is exactly correct.

PN694

THE COMMISSIONER: And you are saying that the numbers of stock that Coles have given you are insufficient to - - -

PN695

MR ORAVEC: They have been smaller.

PN696

THE COMMISSIONER: That the afternoon shift isn't cutting for Coles?

PN697

MR ORAVEC: The afternoon could cut something for Coles, but the majority - - -

PN698

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, then the day shift could too, couldn't it?

PN699

MR ORAVEC: No, the day shift is - - -

PN700

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Oravec, I don't take kindly to this. Are you saying - - -

PN701

MR ORAVEC: Yes.

PN702

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - that Coles has reduced the amount of stock available to the company for preparation, or are you saying that the company has reduced the amount of stock it receives from Coles that it is prepared to give to the day shift?

PN703

MR ORAVEC: No, we saying that the Coles reduce the numbers which is - which is processed, so - - -

PN704

THE COMMISSIONER: Who puts the stock up to the afternoon shift? I understand that there it is a hire company that does the work, but - - -

PN705

MR ORAVEC: Yes.

PN706

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - on who's behalf do they do the work?

PN707

MR ORAVEC: On behalf of various companies, plus Coles as well, so there - - -

PN708

THE COMMISSIONER: But not your company?

PN709

MR ORAVEC: Yes, our company as well.

PN710

THE COMMISSIONER: So they have a contract with Coles, or do you have the contract with Coles?

PN711

MR ORAVEC: We have a contract with Coles.

PN712

THE COMMISSIONER: Does the labour hire company, Tekforce, have a contract with Coles?

PN713

MR ORAVEC: No, they haven't, we haven't - - -

PN714

THE COMMISSIONER: Any stock that they are cutting up on the afternoon shift for Coles is on your behalf?

PN715

MR ORAVEC: Yes.

PN716

THE COMMISSIONER: The decision, whether that stock goes to the day shift or the afternoon shift, is your company's, isn't it?

PN717

MR ORAVEC: It is our company's.

PN718

THE COMMISSIONER: It is not Coles' decision?

PN719

MR ORAVEC: No.

PN720

THE COMMISSIONER: You could take the decision to continue to employ these people by putting less of the Coles stock to afternoon shift, couldn't' you?

PN721

MR ORAVEC: Yes, the only thing what I want to point out, as previously discussed, certain cuts on which are done by afternoon is much more technical, the special labour on afternoon shift which are much more technically qualified to do that.

PN722

THE COMMISSIONER: And you will bring evidence about that if need be, would you?

PN723

MR ORAVEC: Yes.

PN724

THE COMMISSIONER: What are those cuts?

PN725

MR ORAVEC: Well, various cuts.

PN726

THE COMMISSIONER: You tell me about them.

PN727

MR ORAVEC: Well, strip loins, porterhouses, rumps - - -

PN728

THE COMMISSIONER: And these aren't done on the - the day shift people can't do these?

PN729

MR ORAVEC: Well, not as qualified as an afternoon shift.

PN730

THE COMMISSIONER: What qualifications do they require to be able to do them?

PN731

MR ORAVEC: Well, I mean, it - it - it might be first quality boner, I mean, when you take from one to ten, one boner might be ten, one boner might eight, ten, nine, seven - right?

PN732

THE COMMISSIONER: I don't understand. Are they qualifications, are they?

PN733

MR ORAVEC: Well, I would say a qualification is assessment of the management, who is a first quality boner.

PN734

THE COMMISSIONER: Where have you got the - you don't employ the people on the afternoon shift.

PN735

MR ORAVEC: No, we don't.

PN736

THE COMMISSIONER: So you can't assess who they are.

PN737

MR ORAVEC: No, but we - - -

PN738

THE COMMISSIONER: But you can - no hang on; but you can assess the people that work for you.

PN739

MR ORAVEC: Yes.

PN740

THE COMMISSIONER: Where are the assessments that you have carried out on the people on day shift?

PN741

MR ORAVEC: Well, we just - - -

PN742

THE COMMISSIONER: Are they written down somewhere?

PN743

MR ORAVEC: Yes. Well, because we - they are written down - - -

PN744

THE COMMISSIONER: No; well, I will repeat my question. Where are the assessments of the boners on day shift? What location? Where are they located?

PN745

MR ORAVEC: Well, they are assessment, because we are - we have a quality control there, there is, of course, inspection, because we can have - - -

PN746

THE COMMISSIONER: You presumably have records of the assessments?

PN747

MR ORAVEC: Yes.

PN748

THE COMMISSIONER: Where are those records?

PN749

MR ORAVEC: Well, I haven't got them here, of course.

PN750

THE COMMISSIONER: No, but I am asking where they are?

PN751

MR ORAVEC: Well, at the work. Because we - - -

PN752

THE COMMISSIONER: So they do exist?

PN753

MR ORAVEC: They do exist.

PN754

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN755

MR ORAVEC: Because we - we - - -

PN756

THE COMMISSIONER: Right, now, would the afternoon shift - would the people who run the afternoon shift have similar records?

PN757

MR ORAVEC: Yes, I presume so, I am not - I haven't been instructed to, but - but I presume so, because the afternoon shift, as I am pointing out, of course requiring certain specific cuts, which are much more refined, shall we say. That is - that is - - -

PN758

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I don't want you to: shall we say; either they are, or they aren't.

PN759

MR ORAVEC: Well, they are.

PN760

THE COMMISSIONER: You are saying that the people on day shift are not as competent as the people on afternoon shift.

PN761

MR ORAVEC: Well, that was my instruction.

PN762

THE COMMISSIONER: For certain of the - well, I appreciate that they are your instructions, but - so, the only stock that is put for Coles, that goes to the afternoon shift, is that stock for which the people on day shift are not competent to perform? Is that what you are saying?

PN763

MR ORAVEC: Yes, I wouldn't say as strong as not competent, but not - - -

PN764

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, then if they are competent to do it, why aren't they going - why aren't you - - -

PN765

MR ORAVEC: Because as I - - -

PN766

THE COMMISSIONER: No - hang on.

PN767

MR ORAVEC: I am sorry.

PN768

THE COMMISSIONER: Your company has got an obligation to put stock up to it's own employees.

PN769

MR ORAVEC: Right.

PN770

THE COMMISSIONER: But they have decided not to; I mean, as I understand what you are saying to me, and it is not a final conclusion, but you are saying to me that there is insufficient stock from Coles to go to the day shift to allow the employment of what would be probably four extra slicers.

PN771

MR ORAVEC: Yes, what I am saying - - -

PN772

THE COMMISSIONER: Hang on.

PN773

MR ORAVEC: Sorry.

PN774

THE COMMISSIONER: Because the ratio is such that there has got to be around four slicers to three boners, and because you haven't got the work for an additional four slicers you haven't got the work for an additional three boners. Is that what you are saying?

PN775

MR ORAVEC: I am saying that we had a ratio of people has suddenly come that we have far too many boners - - -

PN776

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well, I dealt with that.

PN777

MR ORAVEC: - - - against the slicers.

PN778

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry - I dealt with that, Mr Oravec. I said, when did you last advertise for slicers? And you said you didn't.

PN779

MR ORAVEC: No.

PN780

THE COMMISSIONER: Because we don't have enough stock. That was your answer.

PN781

MR ORAVEC: Yes, but we don't advertise.

PN782

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, then, why not? And you answer was: because we don't have enough stock anyhow.

PN783

MR ORAVEC: Yes, well, because that would end - increase the production to higher levels.

PN784

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, but then - - -

PN785

MR ORAVEC: So the - - -

PN786

THE COMMISSIONER: And the question - - -

PN787

MR ORAVEC: Sorry.

PN788

THE COMMISSIONER: But then, you have got the production; but you are sending some of the production to the afternoon shift where it is performed by people who are not your employees.

PN789

MR ORAVEC: That is correct.

PN790

THE COMMISSIONER: And you are making people redundant as a result. You are treating your employees as second class.

PN791

MR ORAVEC: No we not.

PN792

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, you must be. Because you are saying that the work will go to the people that we don't employ, rather than the people we do employ.

PN793

MR ORAVEC: I did not say that they work anymore work all day, I didn't say that. I did no say that.

PN794

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, then why is the work not going to your employees?

PN795

MR ORAVEC: What - what I am trying to say, I didn't say that the work from the day will go to the afternoon shift, I never say that - I never said that. What I am saying, the status quo of the day shift has been that we have far too many boners.

PN796

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, and you can get more - - -

PN797

MR ORAVEC: But I - - -

PN798

THE COMMISSIONER: But you can get more slicers.

PN799

MR ORAVEC: Yes, I know, but then we had to increase the status quo, we would have to increase that status quo.

PN800

THE COMMISSIONER: You would have to put more people on, yes.

PN801

MR ORAVEC: Well, it is present - the balance is - sheer for arguments sake, and I am not quoting exact figure, as long as it is clear, right?

PN802

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I am clear, but the dispute - - -

PN803

MR ORAVEC: May I - may I just - - -

PN804

THE COMMISSIONER: Where the debate is going to get to, Mr Oravec, I can see it because I have heard the debate before.

PN805

MR ORAVEC: Right.

PN806

THE COMMISSIONER: Where the debate is going to get to is along the lines I am saying, that you are taking the work away from the day shift and giving it to the afternoon shift. That is where the debate has got to get to, because that has been the allegation for months now.

PN807

MR ORAVEC: Okay. Sir, may I just disagree on that, because there is a status quo. Just take for arguments sake, I am not saying that is the figure. Say the day shift is doing 400 bodies, right?

PN808

THE COMMISSIONER: Mm.

PN809

MR ORAVEC: Just for arguments sake, I don't know, they might be doing 500, 700, I don't know the figure. Say they are doing 400 bodies. That is the status quo, right? Now, because we have too many boners we have to put the boners off, because the ratio is not in balance.

PN810

THE COMMISSIONER: But, I am sorry, Mr Oravec, that can't make sense. Because, if the status quo was such that you needed three more boners than you have now got - - -

PN811

MR ORAVEC: Yes - no - - -

PN812

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - the status quo must have changed, because for some reason you no longer need those three boners.

PN813

MR ORAVEC: Yes, because the slicers - we lost - we haven't got the ratio now, but - - -

PN814

THE COMMISSIONER: But you must have had the slicers before then?

PN815

MR ORAVEC: Yes, they were there. Yes.

PN816

THE COMMISSIONER: So? When did the ratio change? When did you lose the four slicers, is that the number?

PN817

MR ORAVEC: No, it is three - three boners, actually, that are in question.

PN818

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, but when the ratio was correct, there must have been four more slicers there too?

PN819

MR ORAVEC: Yes, well - I mean - - -

PN820

THE COMMISSIONER: At some point in time, prior to last Monday when these people were put off - is it last Monday?

PN821

MR DAVEY: No, Monday before then.

PN822

THE COMMISSIONER: Monday week? Monday, a week ago, prior to then there was a ratio of some sort between boners and slicers.

PN823

MR ORAVEC: Right.

PN824

THE COMMISSIONER: And wasn't that the status quo? Haven't you changed the status quo?

PN825

MR ORAVEC: No. Well, it didn't change the status quo. One of the aspect also has - mustn't be forget, that in a day shift we have on many Mondays we have labour force of 90. As much as many as 40 people are missing, absenteeism. So, you know, I came here to speak exactly, today the ratio was such that - - -

PN826

THE COMMISSIONER: I am sorry, you are the one that is telling me that the ratio has changed and the status quo hasn't.

PN827

MR ORAVEC: Yes.

PN828

THE COMMISSIONER: Now, a minute ago you said that the status quo was that they had to get rid of the boners?

PN829

MR ORAVEC: Yes.

PN830

THE COMMISSIONER: But that was a new status quo, wasn't it?

PN831

MR ORAVEC: Yes, it was. Yes.

PN832

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, you can't have a new status quo, I hasten to say.

PN833

MR ORAVEC: Yes.

PN834

THE COMMISSIONER: You must have had the ratio of the number of boners and number of slicers some weeks ago - - -

PN835

MR ORAVEC: Right.

PN836

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - that enabled the continued employment of these three people. Is that correct?

PN837

MR ORAVEC: Right, yes.

PN838

THE COMMISSIONER: And something changed to make the ratio wrong? Some boners must have left, or not turned up to work or something?

PN839

MR ORAVEC: You mean slicers.

PN840

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, some number of slicers - - -

PN841

MR ORAVEC: Yes.

PN842

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - must have left or not turned up to work, is that right?

PN843

MR ORAVEC: Yes. Well, many - many of them don't attending through absenteeism.

PN844

THE COMMISSIONER: So, why don't you employ more slicers? It can't be because of lack of stock because you had sufficient stock when you employed the three people. That was the status quo. What has changed?

PN845

MR ORAVEC: But - but generally, the stock is lower in afternoon shift and day shift as well.

PN846

THE COMMISSIONER: But why do you - I am sorry, let us start again.

PN847

MR ORAVEC: Yes.

PN848

THE COMMISSIONER: Why do you terminate the three people?

PN849

MR ORAVEC: Because they were far - there was not enough - there is no job for them because there was not enough article for them to bone.

PN850

THE COMMISSIONER: And, so it had nothing to do with the ratio of slicers?

PN851

MR ORAVEC: Yes, it had. That is what I am just saying, because there were too many boners, not enough slicers. But altogether - I know what you trying to say, that we should have employ another three slicer from somewhere outside.

PN852

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, at some point in time you must have had three - - -

PN853

MR ORAVEC: Somewhere from outside - - -

PN854

THE COMMISSIONER: No, no. But at some point in time you must have had three or four more slicers.

PN855

MR ORAVEC: Yes.

PN856

THE COMMISSIONER: To keep the ratio right.

PN857

MR ORAVEC: May I ask for instruction?

PN858

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, sure.

PN859

MR CABRAL: Can I say something?

PN860

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Cabral, I would be absolutely excited to hear from you. Excited to hear from you.

PN861

MR CABRAL: Yes, have the slicers left. We had a couple - one, two slicers left. In the meantime we have had extra slicers go on WorkCare, so you put both of them together, we have lost slicers, and - - -

PN862

THE COMMISSIONER: So why wouldn't you replace them?

PN863

MR CABRAL: And in the meantime - yes, I have interviewed people. Slicers have rang me up, I have sent - sent me resume. I have even interviewed people. And I am looking - and I have brought up ..... committee, one of, I think it was - Phil Bix said he has got a couple of slicers, yes, by all means, he will be interviewed. I spoke to someone last week. And that is why we made the redundancy, as soon as we get a few more slicers in the book, that will be - will be looked at straight away. And that was said to, at consultative committee, too. In the meantime our ratio have just gone - it has gone way too - too far in the boners, with the WorkCare, you know.

PN864

THE COMMISSIONER: So, it has got nothing to do with stock? It has got to do with the ratio?

PN865

MR CABRAL: You asked a question about have we lost slicers, yes, we have lost some slicers. Some have resigned, one resigned yesterday, too - or last Friday. Yes, we have lost some slicers, plus we have had extra people go on WorkCare too. So the ratio now is completely out of line.

PN866

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it sounds to me like pretty poor management if you know that the number of slicers are going down, and you are not recruiting new ones.

PN867

MR CABRAL: Well, we are. I am looking at it.

PN868

THE COMMISSIONER: Your ratio must have been down Monday a week ago for you to lose three boners. It must have occurred before then.

PN869

MR ORAVEC: Yes, but also coming back to the - the - the stock has decrease in both afternoon and day shift.

PN870

THE COMMISSIONER: We have been round the houses, we are not going to go there again.

PN871

MR ORAVEC: Right.

PN872

THE COMMISSIONER: You start talking about the status quo, and I want to know what the status quo was a week before - these people went out on Monday - they finished up on Monday 19 November, if I have got it right. Is that correct, Mr Davey?

PN873

MR DAVEY: 12th.

PN874

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, Monday 12 November. What was the ratio on Monday 5 November?

PN875

MR ORAVEC: I can't answer that to be honest.

PN876

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, no-one is assisting me is all I can say, because it just doesn't make sense to me. That some time between Monday 5 November and Monday 12 November, the ratio gets so bad that they have got to put three people off.

PN877

MR ORAVEC: Right.

PN878

THE COMMISSIONER: As boners, because that is the only reason. I mean, there is some talk about a fall off in stock, but that seems to me to be one of those arguments that you can talk about forever. But at some point in time management must have known that there was this problem of getting enough slicers and sat on their hands, did nothing about replacing them. So the result was that three of the permanent boners became redundant. Not because of any shortage of stock, but because someone in management didn't do enough - you can't tell me that there aren't unemployed slicers out there that are competent. That can't be the case, can it?

PN879

MR ORAVEC: Well, there is a slicer and slicer, you know, it is a very exact work to be done, and obviously, as Mr Cabral as he explain, he tried to get slicers. That the slicers - - -

PN880

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, he hasn't told me at any stage when he advertised for them. I note that the company that does your afternoon shift for you has advertised. I mean, all he talks about is some informal approach that if Mr Bix finds someone or something like that, then we will get one. Tell me when they last advertised for slicers.

PN881

MR CABRAL: Excuse me, sir, can I say a few words?

PN882

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Cabral, yes.

PN883

MR CABRAL: Yes, I did ring up Tekforce, if they had any slicers in the books.

PN884

THE COMMISSIONER: No. When was the last time you advertised to employ slicers?

PN885

MR CABRAL: Sorry? I personally or the company?

PN886

THE COMMISSIONER: Your company, or any one of your range of companies?

PN887

MR CABRAL: Yes, well - I can't - yes, we have done, before we put them off, we rang up Tekforce and asked if they had any slicers on the books.

PN888

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well, I repeat my point, at no stage has the company - I mean, it must have known back around about the 5th, or whatever it was, as slicers left that they needed to replace them, or otherwise the ratio would go wrong. And they did nothing to do that. They haven't advertised, anywhere. The best they did was to talk to Tekforce. Well, if there is a shortage of slicers, they are not going to give them to you, are they? Particularly, if you are sending more work to them because you have got insufficient down below - on the day shift, to do the work. I mean, it just doesn't make sense. It honestly doesn't make sense.

PN889

MR ORAVEC: Yes, but the only thing what - what happened - what we saying also, that, from the boners which had been put off, we offer them to job of slicing, right?

PN890

THE COMMISSIONER: When was that offer made?

PN891

MR ORAVEC: Well, I don't know which date it was made, but we offer them - - -

PN892

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, you tell me when it was made and then I will understand what you are saying.

PN893

MR ORAVEC: Yes, may I ask - - -

PN894

THE COMMISSIONER: Because I think the other side needs to know too.

PN895

MR CABRAL: Prior - prior to that, on a daily basis, why we are sending boners home, they were offered, who wants to slice?

PN896

THE COMMISSIONER: No, when were the three people who were made redundant offered the job of slicers? That is what you said, Mr Oravec, isn't it?

PN897

MR ORAVEC: Yes, yes.

PN898

MR CABRAL: No. I think - I think we are mixed up here. Well, we said - - -

PN899

THE COMMISSIONER: So, Mr Oravec, that doesn't sound like it is correct.

PN900

MR CABRAL: I am just saying, I think we are mixed up. Prior to send people, to laying them off - retrenching them and - on a daily basis we had too many boners, and we had people on holidays, RDOs and all that. We still had too many boners. On a daily basis we offered people to go slicing, so these people went - we had to send them home. And give a RDO. At that stage, no-one put their hand up. That was happening every day. No-one put their hand up at that stage.

PN901

THE COMMISSIONER: And you still haven't advertised for slicers?

PN902

MR CABRAL: Like I said, we have rung up Tekforce, rang up National, ..... slicers on the books that are temporary, so we can just keep these in. Extra people put on holidays, and boners, that has been done too. So all that, and the place has still had too many on the books.

PN903

MR ORAVEC: And one of these people, that fellow Chadwick, he has been - I was told he was not competent to slice.

PN904

THE COMMISSIONER: What about Mr Maxfield who wanted a job as a slicer, who was told no work on day shift and given a start on the afternoon shift?

PN905

MR ORAVEC: Well, I had the instruction that he was not a slicer.

PN906

THE COMMISSIONER: We will find out about that; because, you know, it sounds to me like the instructions you are getting are less than frank.

PN907

MR ORAVEC: Well - - -

PN908

THE COMMISSIONER: And there is some obligation on those who appear before here to be frank or otherwise we will start putting them in the box and put them up for examination and cross-examination on oath.

PN909

MR ORAVEC: Well, that is - that is what - - -

PN910

THE COMMISSIONER: I mean, the Commission does not take it lightly when people mislead us.

PN911

MR ORAVEC: I don't try to mislead you, I - - -

PN912

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, if people aren't being - I am not suggesting you are, Mr Oravec.

PN913

MR ORAVEC: No.

PN914

THE COMMISSIONER: There are those who are instructing you who are being less than frank with you; it has already been admitted.

PN915

MR ORAVEC: Yes, but this man, Chadwick, not - not Chadwick, beg your pardon - - -

PN916

THE COMMISSIONER: Maxfield.

PN917

MR ORAVEC: Maxfield, I believe he is not a slicer.

PN918

MR CABRAL: He is a beef boner, sir, and he is a calf boner too.

PN919

MR DAVEY: He is a competent boner and slicer.

PN920

MR CABRAL: Well, we have had him work previously with us, he has never sliced before. And he is a calf boner.

PN921

THE COMMISSIONER: What is the job he has got on afternoon shift?

PN922

MR CABRAL: He is a boner.

PN923

MR ORAVEC: That is what I said - - -

PN924

MR CABRAL: As a boner. He is working as a boner.

PN925

MR ORAVEC: He is a - - -

PN926

THE COMMISSIONER: No, I understand what you are saying.

PN927

MR ORAVEC: Calf boner, I said.

PN928

MR CABRAL: No, he is - he is a boner on the afternoon shift, sir.

PN929

MR DAVEY: Sir, my instructions is his latest employment prior to this company was as a boner and slicer on beef with Crown Meats.

PN930

THE COMMISSIONER: But he is working as boner on the afternoon shift?

PN931

MR DAVEY: Yes, but he was looking for a job on the day shift, and was prepared to slice. He can do both.

PN932

THE COMMISSIONER: But anyhow, their company is not recruiting slicers, it would appear. Not seeking to recruit slicers. Because what you are saying is he went there wanting a job as a slicer and was told that there was no work, is that right?

PN933

MR CABRAL: No, he wasn't told that.

PN934

MR DAVEY: He was told to go on the night shift.

PN935

THE COMMISSIONER: My notes of what you said is that on the day in question, Sheldon Maxfield wanted a job as a slicer. He approached the company and was told there was no work on day shift, and was given a start on the afternoon shift.

PN936

MR DAVEY: That is my instructions, sir, yes.

PN937

THE COMMISSIONER: Now, you deny that, do you?

PN938

MR CABRAL: What is that, sorry? I missed that. Sorry, sir.

PN939

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it is now the third time it has been said, Mr Cabral. Because the first time it was said by Mr Davey, I took the note and I just wanted to be careful about it. Mr Davey has confirmed it, so please listen.

PN940

MR CABRAL: I am

PN941

THE COMMISSIONER: On the day in question and that was 12 November, Sheldon Maxfield wanted a job as a slicer with the company. He was told there was no work on day shift, and given a start on the afternoon shift. Now, that is the allegation, and that is inconsistent with everything that you have said.

PN942

MR CABRAL: Hang on, I will check the records. I think that is wrong. I will check the records. He was not - he wasn't there slicing - no, that is wrong. I will check the records. That is - no. That I disagree - no.

PN943

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I know you disagree, but - - -

PN944

MR CABRAL: I am just saying, I will check the records, but I don't think it is right. I think the records are wrong there, what you are saying.

PN945

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I am not saying it. Mr Davey is saying it.

PN946

MR CABRAL: But - well, Mr Davey, then. That is what I am saying now. The records are wrong.

PN947

THE COMMISSIONER: Right. Well, where do you get that information from, Mr Davey? From the individual himself, or is it second hand?

PN948

MR DAVEY: No, no. From the delegate, sir, and the members, and - - -

PN949

THE COMMISSIONER: Was it from Mr - - -

PN950

MR DAVEY: It was from Mr Leebody, the assistant - - -

PN951

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, Mr Leebody, do you want to tell us what happened to the best of your knowledge, and we will let Mr - - -

PN952

MR LEEBODY: On the Friday - on the Friday before that Monday before - - -

PN953

THE COMMISSIONER: That is on the 16th?

PN954

MR LEEBODY: Yes. Sheldon - - -

PN955

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, the 9th.

PN956

MR LEEBODY: Sheldon Maxfield rang me at home and said was there any work going at work. I said you won't get on boning, but slicers job you will be able to. I rang ..... on the Friday, he said tell Sheldon to come down Monday morning. Sheldon arrived there Monday morning, and I said what about Sheldon starting as a slicer. He goes no. I then spoke with Sheldon later on that morning, and told him to - they will give him a call for the night shift.

PN957

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, there you are, Mr Cabral, you have got it from the horse's mouth; do you still say no?

PN958

MR CABRAL: Like - like I said to you, I will check the records. I can't say anything, like I said to you before.

PN959

THE COMMISSIONER: We go around and around in circles. Yes, Mr Oravec, I will hear you out.

PN960

MR ORAVEC: Well, I am actually finished with my - my - my submission, that these people have been put off for reason as I given. They have been put off in seniority, they have been given - - -

PN961

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, I want to understand what the reason is. Is it the shortage of slicers? Or is it a shortage of work?

PN962

MR ORAVEC: Both.

PN963

THE COMMISSIONER: When did the shortage of work first arise, then?

PN964

MR ORAVEC: Well, sir - I mean, we not always been in hands of company like Coles.

PN965

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, when did Coles reduce the amount of stock that you are getting?

PN966

MR ORAVEC: Well, just before these people have been put off.

PN967

THE COMMISSIONER: Right, what was the reduction?

PN968

MR ORAVEC: I can't tell you exactly that.

PN969

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, you can't come along here and tell me that. Where it is disputed, I want to see the figures.

PN970

MR ORAVEC: Yes.

PN971

THE COMMISSIONER: To justify what you are saying. It is not enough just to waffle on, and I am not suggesting that you are waffling on, but I think you need to come here with the hard evidence. Because it is clearly going to be challenged from the other side, clearly going to be challenged.

PN972

MR ORAVEC: Yes. Well, sir - - -

PN973

THE COMMISSIONER: And how can I resolve a dispute when I am dealing with bits of air?

PN974

MR ORAVEC: But, sir, we trying to run business to best of our ability, the best of, so we survive today in the industry you - you really either survive or you go under. There is no money or anything like that. No margins. You know, we speaking about the day shift. As I pointed out, the absenteeism is something like 40 out of 90, one day we had three weeks ago, 47 people out of 90 didn't arrive. Now, how do you run business then? There is a - - -

PN975

THE COMMISSIONER: Probably with some better management would be a start.

PN976

MR ORAVEC: Well, I am not so certain, sir. I definitely not so certain. One of the - another aspect; now, take for instance, injuries. WorkCare. It is absolutely unbelievable. Now, we have got a first aid room. We had in 4 months, from the day shift, 300 - 300 entries. From the afternoon shift in the same time we have 4 entries, so, you know, it is very difficult to manage. You speaking about good management. How do you manage if - if you have workforce which you can't rely on? I mean, how do you manage ratios if people don't arrive to work? Every second person doesn't arrive. Monday. So, that is the reason.

PN977

THE COMMISSIONER: I am not sure what the reason is now. I mean, you have told me four reasons, as I understand it.

PN978

MR ORAVEC: Yes.

PN979

THE COMMISSIONER: One is that there is insufficient work. One is the ratios are wrong. One is that there is a high level of WorkCover, and another one is that there is a high level of absenteeism.

PN980

MR ORAVEC: Yes. Well, I am saying only that two items where these people have been put off, which is, first of all, the ratio is wrong and second one, lack of stock. The other two items, I am just saying, makes it very difficult, very difficult, to run a business. I am not saying they the reasons, but I mean, look, one fact is certain that during the afternoon shift at least we have none of these problems. There is no absenteeism, there is no - you know, people come today, everyday - - -

PN981

THE COMMISSIONER: And you are not the managers of the workforce.

PN982

MR ORAVEC: Pardon?

PN983

THE COMMISSIONER: And you don't manage the workforce.

PN984

MR ORAVEC: No, we don't.

PN985

THE COMMISSIONER: Well.

PN986

MR ORAVEC: We don't.

PN987

THE COMMISSIONER: Q-E-D, I think.

PN988

MR ORAVEC: I didn't understand.

PN989

THE COMMISSIONER: It stands to reason.

PN990

MR ORAVEC: Yes.

PN991

THE COMMISSIONER: That management, in the afternoon shift, is better than management on the day shift.

PN992

MR ORAVEC: Well, maybe also, we took the wrong - wrong people into our company, because we took over - these people been taken over as ..... establishment.

PN993

THE COMMISSIONER: It is the people's fault, not the management's fault.

PN994

MR ORAVEC: Well, put it this way; if somebody comes every second Monday - stays home - - -

PN995

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN996

MR ORAVEC: I presume is not.

PN997

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, why don't you just put them off, if they don't turn up every week?

PN998

MR ORAVEC: But it is very hard to put them off, if they bring a certificate. Today to bring a certificate, sir, is not such a difficult one. I - - -

PN999

THE COMMISSIONER: What they bring a certificate for being sick every Monday?

PN1000

MR ORAVEC: Well, they - they go to doctor, and they bring a certificate.

PN1001

THE COMMISSIONER: And the person - - -

PN1002

MR ORAVEC: Medical condition.

PN1003

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I understand that; but, every Monday? That is 52 Mondays a year, they are off sick, with a medical certificate?

PN1004

MR ORAVEC: I am not saying every Monday, but they are many of these Mondays and then many other days; Fridays as well. I am not saying every Monday, but the absenteeism is something tragic.

PN1005

THE COMMISSIONER: And they have got a medical certificate?

PN1006

MR ORAVEC: Most of them have medical certificate. For one day we don't ask it, but, I mean, you have medical certificate. I mean, I spoke to doctors, three or four doctors, they said to me: Look, it is confidential, which is fair enough, I don't mind that, and there is a medical condition that is on the certificate.

PN1007

THE COMMISSIONER: Did the predecessor company have this same problem of absenteeism?

PN1008

MR ORAVEC: Yes. That is one of the reasons why they lost the job with Collins. That is the reason.

PN1009

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, okay, I hear what you are saying. It seems to might like your consultative committee should be doing some work in those areas.

PN1010

MR ORAVEC: Right. If you please, sir, I have suggest that we have some sort of a conference, if you don't mind.

PN1011

THE COMMISSIONER: But I am not sure what I can do about it. Mr Davey, I will hear what you are going to say.

PN1012

MR DAVEY: There is an unfortunate pattern that emerges with these sorts of ..... and it, you know, we are given a reason as to why people are put off and then when we turn up here that reason goes out the window and there is a whole lot of other reasons. That is why, unfortunately, we end up here, because the same pattern reveals itself at work.

PN1013

There was never anything mentioned in respect of anything other than that there was too many boners and not enough slicers. Now, I don't want to re-event the wheel, and I can counter everything that Mr Oravec has said and we will be here for hours and hours and hours and we will not get anywhere. What we are here for is to get these three people reinstated.

PN1014

We have given a number of options to the company as to how that can be done and how in our belief it would actually assist the company. It wasn't that long ago that this company ran two changes of 21 piece workers each. Now they are down to somewhere in the vicinity of two-thirds of that. And, you know, that was a decision that was made by the company. It is certainly our view that the work is still there. It is certainly our view that a significant amount of the work is being done by the afternoon shift. And it is interesting, no doubt, people aren't working at all today and the afternoon shift are working. Well, that may in fact be subject to a further notification if this matter is not sorted out. But this continues to fester.

PN1015

But let us see if we can simplify the whole thing. If the company agrees to put these three people back on, then we don't need to converse all those other issues. We have made mention of various ways how we can assist the company in the areas that - it's absenteeism, but it has to be looked at on an individual basis. The fact that there are statistics from the afternoon shift of lack of injury only reveals one thing, and that is that the people on the afternoon shift are too afraid to report any injury because they know full well they won't be picked up again if they do, and that is a fact of life, and that is why the company is so keen to get the work away from its unionised workforce that is covered by agreement across to a non-unionised, casualised workforce that is not properly covered by an agreement.

PN1016

And we have got a letter from the SP Tekforce that actually says as much, that they refuse to recognise our agreement, despite the fact that we were told early in the piece that they will abide by those agreements. But what hasn't been addressed here is all the suggestions that we made, being creative and trying to solve the problem as to how it can be resolved. There are people that I could talk about now that could be employed to lift the number of slicers up there. There is Ian Eagleton, there is Errol Shaw, there is Paul Baker, and we have got boners - the company says it has got too many boners and not enough slicers - and we have got boners that are being knocked back when they have applied for annual leave. I mean, how ridiculous does that make their argument?

PN1017

And I can raise certainly one example, and it is one that I have personal knowledge about. I have to say here, I understand that Mr Oravec may be compromised by his instructions, but I have got to say that three-quarters of what is said is just not correct. And as I say, we have put forward various scenarios of how the problem can be resolved, but at the end of the day we just put these people put back on and we will go away and we should all live happily ever after and the company, ultimately, should benefit from that.

[1.34pm]

PN1018

But, you know, if we want to get into an argument about all the arguments raised we can do that, but I don't think that serves any great purpose. It is clear from what has been put to you, sir, that it is an artificial situation, that these people didn't need to be put off, and they can be put on, and the other thing, and I emphasise this again because it hasn't been counted, you know, it was never ever put to our people that if a number of the boners were prepared to go slicing, then that would solve the situation and these people wouldn't be retrenched.

PN1019

If that was put to our meeting of our people, I am sure we could convince them to accept that, on the basis that it was evenly spread, and as I said, Mr Dove has supplied the company with a list of people that are prepared to do that.

PN1020

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, we will adjourn into conference.

NO FURTHER PROCEEDINGS RECORDED