C2001/5603, Transcript of Proceedings [2001] AIRCTrans 3549 (18 December 2001)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N 1628
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER BLAIR

C2001/5603

HEALTH SERVICES UNION
OF AUSTRALIA

and

AUSTIN & REPATRIATION
MEDICAL CENTRE

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of a dispute re implementation of new rosters
at Darley House, alleged non-compliance with
organisational change agreement

MELBOURNE

1.44 PM, MONDAY, 3 DECEMBER 2001

Continued from 23.11.01

PN140

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Haynes.

PN141

MR HAYNES: Thank you, Commissioner. The parties have not reached the same level of agreement in relation to the outstanding issues at Darley House. The union and its representatives met with management representatives of the Austin on Thursday, 29 November at the union's initiative and at that meeting a whole range of issues was considered, Commissioner, but amongst the matters that was discussed was the issue of the rosters at Darley House.

PN142

However, because there wasn't anyone present from Austin management who could look at the rosters with us on that date we agreed to meet again the next day so that the roster could then be looked at having regard to maintaining the same number of hours in the roster and having regard to family responsibilities in the roster and, Commissioner, this is notwithstanding the union's ongoing concerns about staffing levels at Darley House which it continues to push.

PN143

However, Commissioner, the meeting that took place on Friday, that is last Friday, 13 November, was not particularly productive as, Commissioner, no-one from management was present who was able to work out a roster, but I understand that management indicated that they would be able to produce a roster on Monday, that is today. Commissioner, we think however that there will - we haven't seen this new roster yet but we understand that there may still be disagreement about the roster because there is disagreement about the basis on which the roster should be prepared.

PN144

The union has indicated that the roster should be prepared on the basis of the same hours that have been used over the last four and a half months, that is, since Darley House was opened in July of this year. Management on the other hand said that rostered hours will be based on contracted hours. This has not been used previously in setting the hours in the roster at Darley House, and Commissioner, when the Commission issued its directions for the parties to confer further over the proposed roster it was said, and I quote here from paragraph 134 of transcript:

PN145

The objective of the implementation of the rosters is not to increase the hours beyond those currently in place and ...(reads)... family responsibilities.

PN146

And I will leave the quote from your directions there, Commissioner. The union is of the view that the hours currently in place means the hours actually being worked whereas the Austin seems to be of the view that hours currently in place means contracted hours for staff. This is a matter that needs to be clarified, Commissioner, and we would propose that the parties be asked to go away and see if they can get the roster properly in place on the basis of the actual hours that have been worked at Darley House over the last four and a half months.

PN147

What we would further suggest, Commissioner, is that the Commission reconvene to undertaken an inspection at Darley House in two or three weeks time so that not only can a report back be obtained in relation to the issue of rosters but so that the Commissioner can have a fuller appreciation of the workload issues that have been raised by the union in relation to this matter so that the Commission can see the layout of the two wards that form part of Darley House and the circumstances encountered by the staff in terms of undertaking their normal duties as PSAs.

PN148

In that regard, Commissioner, we have not received any further information from management at Austin in relation to the work schedules to be undertaken by the PSAs. You will recall that on the last situation as well as tabling management's proposed rosters and the union's proposed rosters and our analysis of management's proposed rosters the union also tabled a document indicating the nature of the duties and at the time at which they are performed by PSAs at Darley House and we were hoping or expecting that we would receive some documentation from Austin management so that we could progress the issue of workload and appropriate duties at Darley House because that matters seems to have taken a back seat behind the issue of the rosters.

PN149

In the meantime, Commissioner, the members advise me that they continue to be pressed to undertake certain duties without regard to overall issues of workload and that overtime is not being equitably distributed amongst them so that some persons are being given authorisation to undertaken overtime whereas other persons in the same circumstance are not and we say, Commissioner, that this is all a manifestation of the lack of resolve in relation to the nature of duties which PSAs perform and how they are performed within the available hours at Darley House. If the Commission pleases.

PN150

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Yes, Mr Richardson.

PN151

MR RICHARDSON: Mr Commissioner, we do have a new roster which was worked on and developed over the weekend which I can present this morning and I will do so but I would appreciate that in its form that they are not particularly user friendly documents, but for the Commission's record I will certainly put the proposed roster forward. Can I just say in relation to the issue of family responsibilities I am advised that there are two particular issues.

PN152

One was a PSA with two children in school and one was a PSA who had to catch a bus and without commenting on the whys and wherefores of those particular items I am further advised that those two requirements have been accommodated within the proposed roster so that should resolve the issues identified hitherto under the banner of family responsibilities. In terms of Mr Haynes point over the disagreement in relation to the number of hours in use proposed in our rostering arrangements, if I am understanding his proposition correctly what he is actually asking is to increase the contracted hours of the PSA staff involved in Darley House because we are not actually changing the number of hours used in total, either increasing or decreasing.

PN153

If I am to understand therefore what he is asking is that the part time staff should have a permanent increase in their contracted hours. I think that is the corollary of the position that Mr Haynes has put. We don't support that at this stage. As we have indicated earlier in submissions before you, our position is that there are number of things evolving and changing at Darley House as more and more beds are opened and in accordance with the changes to the frequency of some duties that will be undertaken by PSAs, along with the introduction of patient laundry and some breakfast preparation, we have favoured a trial of this exercise for six months with a review thereafter as to how well that is proceeded.

PN154

We would be suggesting that any increase in contracted hours be looked at in that context rather than launch into a process based on an average over the last four months which is not going to be indicative anyway because of the increased hours used in start up, as it were, of a new facility. Mr Haynes proposition about a Commission inspection of the facility to the extent the Commission is so inclined we would think that would be more appropriate after the trial period rather than three weeks hence or at such a point in the near future.

PN155

A couple of the other aspects that Mr Haynes raised was in relation to the Commission's directions when we were last here was to do an assessment of some other comparable institutions to try and get a sense of comparing like jobs with like, which we have done and I can provide that for the Commission's information. There is a comparison there based on an analysis of the duty statements applicable to PSAs working the three centres described there. In a number of instances the work is comparable across the board and in many instances it is not.

PN156

For our purposes we are looking under point 1 of page 1, ..... food, basic meal preparation at breakfast, which is one of the duties that is in contention at the moment. That would be proposed to be done at Austin and is also done at Melbourne Extended Care and Rehabilitation Service. It is not done at Kingston or Caulfield and in relation to the personal laundry which is on page 4, against that is done at MECAR. It is not done elsewhere. What this exercise did highlight is that no two aged care institutions are identical or even closely identical to another, so that from our exercise we would say it is also impossible to compare apples with apples.

PN157

The closest we are going to get is something more akin to Jonathans with Granny Smiths. However, the exercise was worthwhile to the extent that we have clarified the sorts of activities that can fall within aged care facilities in relation to PSA work. In any event, we would say that PSA standards still provide for the nature of the duties that we are proposing in relation to PSAs at Darley House and falls entirely within the functions as laid down at part 3 of the PSA classification standards and to the extent that they are or are not done in other centres, while that is of some interest, we think the defining document is the PSA classification standards.

PN158

We do have a copy of those standards, sir, if you are interested in seeing them. I will leave that perhaps for the Commission to think about.

EXHIBIT #AUSTIN4 PROPOSED ROSTER

EXHIBIT #AUSTIN5 COMPARISON DOCUMENT

PN159

MR RICHARDSON: Where we are at at the moment is, as you know, we have had a number of false starts in relation to the proposed roster. We are sort of running quickly into Christmas and concerned to get the new arrangements, albeit as a trial, under way as soon as possible, so we are have delayed the start date I think about four times in order to allow for further consultation. As best we have been able we have identified solutions to the various issues that have been raised by the HSUA, in particular in relation to family responsibilities, suggestions of unpaid overtime and in terms of the workload we think that can be sorted out by an assessment after a reasonable trial period which we suggest would be six months.

PN160

The extent to which the Commission is involved at the end of that trial perhaps is something we can re-visit at that time if necessary. But we are concerned to commence this new roster as soon as possible and we would be aiming towards a start date of 10 December. If the Commission pleases.

PN161

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Yes, Mr Haynes.

PN162

MR HAYNES: Commissioner, the union has no in principle objection to the notion of a trial but after the last hearing there was clearly a differences in view about the basis upon which the roster would be set and while the Commission would not be surprised to hear that the union has not done a comprehensive analysis of the roster given to me by Mr Richardson two or three minutes ago what the union with the assistance of its representative have identified in this roster that covers a four week period is that in 12 shifts out of the 28 days the roster provides for 25 hours on each of those 12 days and not the 32 hours that is in the roster at present.

PN163

So they were the seven hours which the last roster was short, Commissioner, and we say again that this roster is short seven hours in 12 out of the 28 days in this. So that really is an obstacle to us in terms of agreeing to a trial at this stage. We are not wanting to be obstructionist in terms of this matter going forward but this was the same matter that we raised at the last hearing and we understood that we were going into discussions with Austin to formulate a roster that would be based on the hours currently in place.

PN164

THE COMMISSIONER: Who takes up those hours? Who is proposed to take up those hours?

PN165

MR HAYNES: I don't think anyone is proposed to take up those hours. I think there will just simply be less hours available for the PSAs on those days which goes to the workload concerns that our members have in terms of this roster and of the previous rosters and similarly, Commissioner, the union has not had the opportunity to undertake a detailed analysis of the comparison of a PSA position description between the four places that are the subject of Mr Richardson's document.

PN166

But from personal experience and from Ms Marko's personal experience we also know and quite possibly from the Commissioner's personal experience, we know that there has been extensive consideration at each of those places as to the nature of the duties undertaken with a view to making sure that workloads were not excessive at each of those places and that is no different from the process that the union has been seeking to undertake at the Austin. If the Commission pleases.

PN167

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Mr Richardson.

PN168

MR RICHARDSON: We are not sure on the basis upon which the union reaches a view that there is seven hours short. Where are the seven hours? It is based on an average of the last four months again, because we have not sought to decrease the work hours?

PN169

MR HAYNES: Well, Commissioner, we are able to sit down with the Austin and go through that. That was what we understood we were going to be doing with them both on Thursday of last week and Friday of last week and we remain ready, willing and able to sit down with them at any time to address those issues.

PN170

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, if it can be demonstrated by Austin that, as they say that they have not sought to reduce the hours, if it can be demonstrated that the hours have not been reduced, that the family responsibility issues have been accommodated in the proposed roster and having a glance at the comparison document of PSA positions across four establishments and the Commission accepts that as best one can the comparison is probably with Granny Smith as opposed to, what did you say, Johnson?

PN171

MR RICHARDSON: Jonathans

PN172

THE COMMISSIONER: Jonathans apples. I mean just at a cursory glance I can see that there are some functions that are not expected to be performed by PSAs at Austin but are performed by other people at other centres and there are some functions that are going to be performed or expected to be performed at Austin that are not expected to be performed at other centres. On balance at a cursory glance it would appear that what is being sought from the PSAs is in line with the PSA position description.

PN173

Now, if the parties can have further discussions to clarify the issue of these hours and if that is clarified then I see no reason why the roster should not be implemented for a trial period.

PN174

MR HAYNES: Well, Commissioner, again I think this is the issue. The Commission and the HSUA has only been able to have a cursory examination of this matter. We anticipated that we would work through this matter in some detail on Thursday and Friday and that was not the case. They were both meetings which were initiated by the union. As I have said, we were ready, willing and able then, we are ready, willing and able now to talk through each of those issues. But it is also the case that looking at the Austin proposed roster document this document has not got the same hours in it that were contained in rosters which were in place prior to this roster being proposed and that is a central issue for the union.

PN175

THE COMMISSIONER: I hear what you say. Mr Richardson has said that they have not sought to reduce the hours and he has asked the specific question where are the hours short, where have they been reduced. I understand that you have not had an opportunity of a detailed look at it.

PN176

MR HAYNES: Commissioner, on Monday of the first week, on Wednesday of the first week, on the Saturday and Sunday of the first week, on the Wednesday of the second week, on the Saturday and Sunday of the second week, on the Tuesday and Sunday and Monday of the third and beginning of the fourth week, on the Wednesday of the fourth week and on the Sunday of the fourth week. Now, again, Commissioner, this is very much a matter of us having to look at a roster and make immediate judgments about its application, but on each of those days, Commissioner, it appears that there will be less hours provided on that day than are provided on rosters which have been in place up until now.

PN177

THE COMMISSIONER: But Mr Richardson made a reference to the start up. Obviously there would have been extra hours involved in the start up, is that right?

PN178

MR HAYNES: I wouldn't have thought that is necessarily the case, Commissioner. If anything, and this is what I indicated in the first instance, that there was disagreement between the union and the Austin at the start up about there not being adequate staffing provided at Darley House. We don't say the pre-existing hours are an ideal situation but that was the basis on which we went away on the last occasion.

PN179

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN180

MR HAYNES: And we say that these hours are still down on the hours which have been provided previously and that was the basis on which you sent us away on the last occasion. And if anything, Commissioner, I am advised that patient numbers have increased since the start up, so that rather than workloads reducing, if anything, Commissioner, they have increased since the start up time.

PN181

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Richardson.

PN182

MR RICHARDSON: The question of the start up hours, I mean Darley House opened as a 30 bed establishment. It went from zero to 30 in the space of sort of overnight, so there was a considerable additional workload as a consequence of that and then it also opened a number of other beds as a block and it has progressively continued to build up. So it has had fluctuations in its workload and rostering as a consequence since its establishment four months ago and it is probably only at a point now where the workload is going to stabilise to the point where we are really going to appreciate what is going on, in addition to which the proposal that was presently before us does entail changes to the frequency of duties so that work that was previously done, for example, on a daily basis might be done periodically during the week.

PN183

So the number of hours freed up as it were as a consequence of that to do other things is also yet to be properly established and that was all envisaged as part of the trial period.

PN184

THE COMMISSIONER: Right. When is it proposed that the parties, after the HSUA have a looked at these documents in detail, when it is proposed that they meet again? You are keen to get the roster started on the 10th because you say it has been delayed three or four times now. The HSUA say that have only been provided with the document 10 minutes ago.

PN185

MR RICHARDSON: Mr Commissioner, I am advised that A & RMC could be available tomorrow other than around midday.

PN186

THE COMMISSIONER: All right, okay. All right, well, if the parties could meet and go through in detail the proposed roster and the comparison of PSA positions. If still no agreement is reached either party is free to have the matter brought back to the Commission to see whether or not we can reach some settlement. Okay.

PN187

MR HAYNES: Commissioner, I wonder if I might have a couple of minutes of your time after this hearing?

PN188

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it is all right, I am going to come down there anyway because of what I talked to you about before. All right, the Commission will stand adjourned to a date to be fixed.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [2.08pm]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #AUSTIN4 PROPOSED ROSTER PN159
EXHIBIT #AUSTIN5 COMPARISON DOCUMENT PN159