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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 4, 60-70 Elizabeth St SYDNEY NSW 2000
DX1344 Sydney Tel:(02) 9238-6500 Fax:(02) 9238-6533
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
COMMISSIONER SMITH
C No 35582 of 2000
AAPT CDMA PTY LIMITED
and
CPSU AND OTHERS
Notification pursuant to section 99
of the act of a dispute re log of claims
SYDNEY
10.06 AM, THURSDAY, 8 MARCH 2001
Continued from 21.02.01
Hearing Continuing
PN2886
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Parry?
PN2887
MR PARRY: If the Commission pleases, I call Gregory John Bourke.
PN2888
THE COMMISSIONER: Just before you swear him in, do I take it that the witness that was due to be called in Perth, is no longer being called?
PN2889
MR PARRY: Yes.
PN2890
MS JONES: That's right. We have indicated that we don't wish to cross-examine.
PN2891
THE COMMISSIONER: Very well.
PN2892
MR PARRY: To interrupt Mr Bourke slightly, we have had some discussions at the Bar Table. There are three witnesses that Ms Jones doesn't seek to cross-examine and I'll be providing a copy of their statements later in the day. The further witnesses that we will be calling today are from Hutchison, Mr Bourke, WorldxChange, Mr Simon and then a witness from RSLCom, which he's going to be here at 2 o'clock. So, that will be the evidence that we will be calling - so, it should be complete. Our evidentiary case will be complete about 3 o'clock, I would imagine.
PN2893
PN2894
THE COMMISSIONER: Please sit down Mr Bourke.
PN2895
MR PARRY: What's your full name and address, Mr Bourke?---Gregory John Bourke, 22 Jamieson Parade, Collaroy, New South Wales.
PN2896
Where are you employed?---At Hutchison Telecommunications Australia Limited, St. Leonards.
PN2897
What position do you hold?---Director, Human Resources.
PN2898
Have you prepared a statement for these proceedings?---Yes, I have.
PN2899
Do you have a copy of that before you?---I do.
PN2900
Mr Bourke, paragraph 5, refers to certain products that are provided by Hutchison, do you seek to amend paragraph 5?---Yes, just to say that these products are supplied mainly to the business and residential market.
PN2901
So, the word, "business and" before "residential" and delete "the form of home to home mobile services"?---Yes.
PN2902
And paragraph 8?---Mm.
PN2903
You seek to amend that?---Yes, I think we could amend that.
PN2904
How?---Just in terms of the - - -
PN2905
MR PARRY: Ms Jones has some clarification.
PN2906
MS JONES: Yes, I just wasn't sure with paragraph 5, the amendment that we're correcting at this stage.
PN2907
MR PARRY: It reads: "These products are supplied mainly to the business and residential market - full stop.
PN2908
MS JONES: Thank you.
PN2909
MR PARRY: Mr Bourke, is there any amendment to paragraph 8?---I think, just the addition that we do have some Enterprise Agreements as instruments, but I don't think I mentioned that.
PN2910
Well, perhaps, to deal with paragraph 8 then, in Victoria you have a Hutchison Telecommunications Australia Limited Enterprise Agreement - if I could hand a copy of that to Mr Bourke.
PN2911
THE COMMISSIONER: I would be grateful if your instructing Solicitor would do it. I have sent my associate to cancel the video conference.
PN2912
MR PARRY: I am going to hand Mr Bourke a bundle of four documents - I will hopefully distribute them to the Bar Table - a document being Hutchison Telecommunications Australia Limited Enterprise Agreement Victoria, 2000 to 2003, a Hutchison Telecommunications Australia Limited South Australia Enterprise Agreement 2000 approved by the State Commission, Commercial Sales Victoria Award 1999, an award of the Federal Commission and Clerical and Administrative Employees Award 1999, also an award of this Commission. Do you have copies of those documents before you?---I do.
PN2913
MR PARRY: Perhaps, I will hand this to the Commission then - my associate will - my instructing Solicitor.
PN2914
Perhaps, we could firstly deal with Queensland. What industrial instruments apply in Queensland, Mr Bourke?---Well, we have a - a long standing agreement up there that, I guess - you've just handed out - which is the result from the State Wage Case of '87. It's a second - second tier restructuring and efficiency agreement.
PN2915
Right. If I could stop you there - that's not in the bundle I've just handed up. I am obtaining a copy of that. Perhaps I will wait until it's distributed. Perhaps we will turn to Queensland. Perhaps we will turn to that second tier agreement, as you describe it. Now, the Victorian - what operations do you have in Victoria, Mr Bourke?---We have a State office and - which comprises basically a sales and distribution type operation - administrative type operation and we also have a Sales Call Centre and we have a Technical Switching Centre.
PN2916
The industrial instruments I have handed up, included in there is a Hutchison Telecommunications Enterprise Agreement certified by the Commission, do you have a copy of that?---Yes, I do.
PN2917
Now, it mentions it was certified under section 170LK of the Act, are you aware of which award was used in respect of the no-disadvantage test?---The Clerks' Award.
PN2918
When you say the Clerks' Award, are you referring to the State?---The State Clerks' Award.
PN2919
The Victorian State Clerks' Award?---Victorian States, yes.
PN2920
THE COMMISSIONER: Just a moment Mr Parry. The Clerical and Administrative Employees' Victorian Award, is it, the one that's appended? I'm sorry, I should have asked you?---Yes. Yes, that's my understanding.
PN2921
Is that the one that was used - - -?---Yes, correct.
PN2922
- - -the award that was made by Commissioner Merriman? The Clerical and Administrative Employees Victorian Award 1995 - that was the award that was used for the no-disadvantage test, was it?---Look, I'm unsure about that since - of whether it was that exact - I've got actually here the 1999 Award.
PN2923
MR PARRY: Yes.
PN2924
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, it is in 1999, but it's named the Commercial Sales Victoria.
PN2925
MR PARRY: Sorry, Commissioner. You have two Federal Awards.
PN2926
THE COMMISSIONER: I see, I'm sorry.
PN2927
MR PARRY: One being, the Commercial Sales Victoria Award 1999 and also the Clerical and Administrative Employees' Victoria Award 1999.
PN2928
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. So, the answer, the Clerks' Award was that award - the Clerical and Administrative Employees' Victoria Award 1999?
PN2929
MR PARRY: I think Mr Bourke said the Victoria Clerks' Award and then he said 1999 and, without wanting to put words in his mouth, I think he is saying that it's the Clerical and Administrative Employees' Victoria Award 1999.
PN2930
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN2931
THE WITNESS: And I confirm that.
PN2932
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
PN2933
THE WITNESS: Okay.
PN2934
MR PARRY: Now, if I could take you to paragraph 2, which is on the third page. It refers to - it's about three quarters of the way down the page:
PN2935
"The following parties are bound by this agreement - Hutchison and all persons employed by the company in classifications covered by this agreement to perform call centre work in the Sales Call Centre in Victoria.
PN2936
?---Mm.
PN2937
And is that the Call Centre that you were referring to earlier when you were describing your company's operations in Victoria?---Yes.
PN2938
MR PARRY: I propose tendering these documents as a bundle, but I'm in the Commission's hands whether you would want these documents tendered separately?
PN2939
THE COMMISSIONER: As a bundle, would be fine, Mr Parry.
PN2940
MR PARRY: Then I'll keep them with the witness statement.
PN2941
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN2942
MR PARRY: Yes, if the Commission pleases.
PN2943
PN2944
MR PARRY: I don't propose taking Mr Bourke to the Clerical and Administrative Employees' Victoria Award 1999, but I do draw the Commission and the party's attention to the fact that Hutchison is a named respondent to that award - named in the schedule for the award.
PN2945
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, so Hutchison has been found to be in dispute in matter 34749 of 1995, which is the ADN number?
PN2946
MR PARRY: Yes, if the Commission pleases.
PN2947
THE COMMISSIONER: In relation to that matter.
PN2948
MR PARRY: And with regard to the - - -
PN2949
THE COMMISSIONER: Do you know, I'm sorry - Mr Bourke, do you know whether the award was arbitrated, or made by consent - it appears to be a review of an award that existed, but do you know any history?---No, I don't Commissioner.
PN2950
Of your participation in the award?---No, I don't.
PN2951
This was a simplification review, for want of a better term?---Yes.
PN2952
All right. Thank you. Thanks Mr Parry?
PN2953
MR PARRY: And Mr Bourke, the Commercial Sales Victoria Award 1999?---Mm.
PN2954
The named organisations on which this award was binding are the Australia Industry Group and Victorian Employees's Chamber of Commerce and Industry. Are you members of either of those?---Yes. We're a member of VECCI, but I should correct on my statement, that we're actually not a member of the Australian Industry Group. We're actually a member of Australian Business and through that get our membership of, and have been a member effective, for many years.
PN2955
And it's through that membership that you consider yourself, or the organisation bound by that Commercial Sales Award?---Correct.
PN2956
Now, who do you apply the Commercial Sales Victoria Award 1999 to?---To our sales professionals outside of the Sales Call Centre environment. So, we have a - a direct and indirect sales channels group in the company and they would be at the minimum conditions that we would apply to those - those professionals.
PN2957
And what sort of work do they do?---They call on customers and dealer organisations and retail organisations and obviously, have relationships with those various parties in ensuring that we sell our product and services.
PN2958
You say, "dealers". They call them "dealers" to sell products to the dealers who then sell to the public?---To the public. Yes, these are shop front retailers, if you like.
PN2959
Now, so those are the industrial instruments that apply in the State of Victoria. You refer to having a head office and a call office, call centre - you've also described the sales operations down there. Do you have any other employees in Victoria?---In - we do have a switch site. We have a number of technical people employed, so that would be the only other operation in Victoria.
PN2960
Where's the switch site?---South Melbourne. In fact, it's in the same building as the sales - the Call Centre is in.
PN2961
And what do these technical people do?---Basically, they manage our network. So, all the technical equipment that we require to, if you like, be a carrier, they manage the infrastructure and technical aspects of that.
PN2962
Now, to do back to Queensland, you describe the Clerical Employees' Award there in the Commercial Travellers' Award, you also refer to a second tier agreement. If I could hand you this document. Now, is this the second tier agreement you were referring to?---Yes.
PN2963
How does Bell Organisation Proprietary Limited relate to Hutchison?---Bell is the original company that was founded in Australia some 20 years ago, which was a paging organisation and approximately 10 years or so ago, Hutchison from Hong Kong bought into the company and the company name was changed.
PN2964
And how are you aware of this particular agreement?---How am I - it was made aware to me when I joined the company 2 years ago and that it had been a long standing arrangement with - within the call centre environment in Brisbane.
PN2965
Who was it an agreement with, do you know?---It was with the - basically the call centre employees in Brisbane. In fact, I should just be a bit more specific, that was particularly in relation to the messaging organisation we had in those days.
PN2966
Now, this agreement, was it - how does it have force within Hutchison? Was it placed before the Queensland Commission, or somehow dealt with, to your knowledge?---That's my understanding. I don't - it's so long ago, I can't be absolutely specific, but I understand that it's an agreement that was ratified and probably goes back into the - into the Wage Case days of the '80s, I'd imagine and - that it was a formalised agreement that we did at the time.
PN2967
Now, the wage rates - the wage rates have been updated since then?---Yes, they're regularly updated. We get regular - I think within Queensland, regular advices from, you know - minimum award rates or minimum rates within Queensland.THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Bourke, do you know whether - there are two ways that these agreements were dealt with. One way was to tender an exhibit when an application was made for an increase under a State Wage decision. The member of the Commission then having satisfied herself or himself the prerequisites had been complied with under the principles then granted the National Wage Case. Another way was - and it had no more than the standing of an exhibit in the proceedings. The other way was to actually have the instrument formally approved by some other mechanism within the relevant legislation. Do you have any knowledge as to which approach was adopted?---No, I'm unclear about that, Commissioner.
PN2968
MR PARRY: Commissioner, obviously I don't know the answer to those questions either and I'm looking at the definition of state employment agreement and it hasn't taken me a lot further but I might have to make some more inquiries about this so that - and speak to the CPSU about it, that's all. So, I'm not confident at the moment I could submit it's a state employment agreement and I'd want to be confident before I make that submission.
PN2969
MS JONES: I'm just wondering, has this yet been tendered as an exhibit because if it is to be we do object on the basis that it's status is unknown at this stage and until clarification.
PN2970
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it can be an exhibit. It's relevance in final submissions might be another question.
PN2971
MR PARRY: Well, it would only be - it has a couple of relevances. One of those might be the state employment agreement. The other relevance is, of course, that it's - we would say it's against the clerical standards and so forth. That's a different relevance.
PN2972
THE COMMISSIONER: And it may represent the view of the employees.
PN2973
PN2974
MR PARRY: I would tender it in any event, whether it is tendered separately or whether it simply forms part of the attachments to Mr Bourke's statements.
PN2975
THE COMMISSIONER: I will mark it separately.
PN2976
MR PARRY: If the Commission pleases. Now, what operations do you have in Queensland, Mr Bourke?---We have a state office at Spring Hill in Brisbane which comprises again - it's very similar to the Melbourne operation and has a, if you like, sales arm and administrative arm and then at Fortitude Valley we have a customer service call centre. The main components of that are customer service and messaging. We also have within that same building an administrative group mainly handling credit type matters.
PN2977
Now, if we could go to New South Wales. What operations do you have in New South Wales?---It's our corporate head office for Australia. We have a switching centre at Lane Cove and within St Leonards we have an IT function and, I guess, sales and marketing, HR, legal and administration groups.
PN2978
Do you have a call centre in Sydney?---We have a very small messaging call centre.
PN2979
Where is that?---In St Leonards.
PN2980
Now, the switching centre, who works there?---It's a larger environment compared to Melbourne where we have again a significant amount of technology that drives the network. So, a number of technical type people that manage the network infrastructure.
PN2981
And the IT workers, how many of those are there?---There's in the order of - just trying to check that number here - it's 149.
PN2982
And sales, how many people do you have in sales?---In Sydney?
PN2983
Yes?---I don't think I've included that in my statement so it would be - it would be a guess. Probably an educated guess of around about 50 people or so, max.
PN2984
Now, if we could go to South Australia. What operations do you have in South Australia?---We have a state office. Again, mainly sales focussed individuals, some administration and customer - front - front office customer service people and a very small messaging call centre. We also have some small number of technical people.
PN2985
Now, do you have an enterprise agreement in South Australia in addition to the state awards?---We do.
PN2986
Do you have a copy of that before you?---I do.
PN2987
Is that the document headed Hutchison Telecommunications Australia Limited, South Australia Enterprise Agreement 2000?---Yes, it is.
PN2988
I think on the face of that it says that it's been approved under section 79 of the Industrial Employees Relation Act 1994?---Correct.
PN2989
Now, what is the history of that agreement?---Well, this was just renewed recently. Again, it is an agreement not, I guess, dissimilar to the one we were talking about in Queensland. It's been in operation for some years and that was renewed late last year. It particularly applies to the call centre people.
PN2990
Subject to those matters, I tender the statement of Mr Bourke.
PN2991
PN2992
MR PARRY: I have nothing further.
PN2993
PN2994
MS JONES: If I could just begin with the products and services that Hutchison provide. You say at paragraph 4 you provide a range of wireless telecommunication products. Could you outline what those products are?---Yes, we - we have our own network in Sydney and Melbourne called the Orange One Network. It is essentially a wireless technology mobile phone type of network that allows calls to be made at local rates from the home and then go mobile once you're outside the home area. We resell Telstra CDMA, we resell Optus GSM, we have our own ISP business and we resell Optus long distance and we also have our own paging network.
PN2995
You said resell CDMA and then something else?---We resell Optus GSM which is basically the Optus main product.
PN2996
Thank you. Could you just explain what the CDMA is?---It's essentially just another type of technology like the GSM technology that Optus and Telstra - it just is a technology that allows us to, I guess, measure exactly where a person is making a call from.
PN2997
I see, so it's a tracking technology?---It just allows - the technology allows us to zero in from where you're making the call from to the point where we can guarantee a service operating out of your home.
PN2998
Right?---So, currently we offer 15 cent calls out of your home, just like you would with a fixed line type operation.
PN2999
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Bourke, your mobile phones operate throughout Australia?---Our network only operates in Sydney and Melbourne and we roam onto the Telstra CDMA network outside of those areas. We do sell - resell the Optus GSM mobile service throughout Australia.
PN3000
So if somebody is operating a mobile phone in Sydney or Melbourne, what signal do you send to that; do you send an orange logo onto it?---Yes. If they're on our Orange One product they would have a handset with orange on it. If we've sold them an Optus GSM service, that would have Optus on it.
PN3001
I see?---So that's not our network.
PN3002
I see, so it would come up with the carrier's network identification logo?---Correct.
PN3003
MS JONES: And ISP internet service provider, as I presumed?---Yes, we've got just a small internet business.
PN3004
I presume that means that you have a licence; you are licensed by the ACA through the Radio Communications Act to - - -?---That would be my understanding.
PN3005
Right. So, the CDMA, the purpose is to monitor where the calls are being made and your customer, both residential and - - -?---And business.
PN3006
And corporate?---Yes.
PN3007
Can you explain, is it equipment or a system that is installed; do you have equipment, that provides the system, to operate?---All you need is the handset.
PN3008
All you need is the handset?---Yes.
PN3009
Then how does the monitoring take place?---It's done through the technology, a system of network computers and so forth that allows us to, I guess, provide a signal that allows us then to track where the call is being made from.
PN3010
And who operates the computers?---That's done through our switch sites in Sydney and Melbourne.
PN3011
I might just refer - with your switch sites, you went through them with Mr Parry and in relation to Victoria you said they were technical people?---Correct.
PN3012
And these are the people listed at paragraph - I think its your 14, is that right?---Yes, correct. Correct, yes.
PN3013
So you have there 292 employees doing technical duties. 91 are technical network operators. When you say:
PN3014
New networks and ongoing maintenance -
PN3015
is that what you're talking about?---Correct.
PN3016
So how many are employed in Victoria compared to New South Wales?---I can't be sure of the exact numbers but the more significant numbers are in Sydney.
PN3017
In Sydney?---Yes and in the order of probably 20 to possibly 25 in Melbourne.
PN3018
I gather from the discussion - but can you confirm - these people are not covered by an award of an agreement, that is, at both sites?---Correct.
PN3019
I presume that they are involved in work that requires them to operate and maintain your wireless network?---Correct.
PN3020
So you have your own network?---Mm.
PN3021
And that connects with other carrier networks, is that correct, to provide the mobile service at different points. So, in Sydney and Melbourne it's yours?---Yes.
PN3022
And elsewhere you connect with Optus?---No, elsewhere we connect with Telstra's CDMA network.
PN3023
I see, sorry. Then where does Optus GCM[sic] fit in the reselling; how is that done?---Optus GSM is - before we gained spectrum to build our own network we were - we resold Optus and we still do today. So, it's like a separate product that we sell because clearly in places outside of Sydney and Melbourne we, at this point, are unable to provide our own network.
PN3024
As a reseller, you initially used Optus GCM[sic], I think, is what you said before you started to build your own?---How long have we been using it?
PN3025
Yes, when did you start?---I can't be exactly sure but it was approximately six years ago.
PN3026
Is that approximately 1994 or 1995?---Yes, it may be even a bit before that but it's in the order of six to seven years.
PN3027
Did you have a licence at that point?---A licence?
PN3028
I realise you weren't a carrier. You have a carrier licence now, I understand that, but in 1994 were you licensed in any way as a reseller?---As a reseller or a - as a reseller, I'm not sure of what the technical requirements would be but I imagine we would have been.
PN3029
So you were a carrier from 1994 as well?---Well, we've had our own paging network so that gives us some requirement, if you like. Even though it's not a mobile service as such it does allow us - it is a wireless network. I don't think it's strictly the same definition as being a carrier, if you like, as a mobile network.
PN3030
Now, would a customer buy an Optus GSM off you and not Optus?---About 300,000 of them, yes.
PN3031
They do?---Yes.
PN3032
In terms of connections to your various customers, how is that done?---How is the connection done to the customer?
PN3033
Yes?---Well, it's all wireless technology so there is no connection.
PN3034
Right, it's just - - -?---They're provided with a handset and they switch it on.
PN3035
So they ring you up? The customer rings you up, or the potential customer rings?---Well, there's a number of different sales channels. How you would purchase a phone? We have a sales contracting organisation that goes and knocks on your door for residential clients and they would sell a phone at your door and you would have the phone delivered within the next couple of days. You can ring up and order a phone and commence a service that way. You can go to one of these dealers that I mentioned before and sign up over the counter and gain delivery of a phone immediately. You can go to - we have services in the High Street retailers so you could go to a High Street retailer and purchase a phone or you could purchase, if you're in corporate land, small to medium enterprise business, we have a direct channel that would have a relationship with a lot of the companies around town.
PN3036
But once you've signed a contract then you're automatically switched through into your network?---Correct.
PN3037
That's it?---Yes.
PN3038
And I presume that's done through your computerised - some sort of computerised system and that makes it automatic?---Correct.
PN3039
As well as reselling Optus GSM you said you resell Optus something or other - sorry, what was that?---Optus long distance.
PN3040
Long distance, I see, and so in order to do that, how do you - do you lease or purchase from Optus? What's the arrangement, the technology?---That's a good question: what's the technology? It's really a - a computerised link. We're not - we're actually reselling it so it's not our network. It becomes more - almost a billing type mechanism of how we - I guess the easiest way to explain it is we purchase wholesale from them and sell retail.
PN3041
So it's like you bulk buy and then resale?---Yes.
PN3042
So what is the advantage from a customer's point of view in that; why would we not just go to Optus or why would I not just go to Optus?---Only obviously in purchasing wholesale that you get very - we get very favourable rates and it becomes a matter of how you package the product and so obviously we wouldn't do it unless we could be competitive. Notwithstanding that, it's a fairly small part of our business.
PN3043
Which is the major part of your business?---The two major parts are really our Orange One Network and the Optus GSM resale business.
PN3044
You mention in paragraph 6 that providing your service involves the physical design and building of the technical network. Do you employ people to design any work?---Well, as an example, Samsung actually built our network and provided the technology but we also do employ people to work with them to help with the building and part of having a wireless network is that you must have base stations scattered throughout the city and we have people that work with other organisations to acquire sites and build those sites.
PN3045
Are these base stations separate to the switching?---They are.
PN3046
Are they not - do staff not work there?---They don't live there. They would go there on occasions. They're usually on top of buildings like this, for instance.
PN3047
So who would maintain or check those or operate them?---Some of our people do and some third party organisation do as well.
PN3048
So, what are they doing when they go to those base stations? Are they - is it a maintenance function?---It can be a combination of construction and maintenance.
PN3049
Where would the staff who do this fall in within your various categories?---They'd be in that - if you go to point number 15, they're part of the technical network operators.
PN3050
So can I conclude, and please correct me, that the technical network operators are employees engaged in relation to the switches and those base stations?---You can.
PN3051
There is no other area that they deal with or work on equipment?---No, it's all in relation to those areas.
PN3052
In order to - I presume that you charge your customers for the service you provide?---I hope we do.
PN3053
Well, if you don't I'm a customer. Can you just tell me how you keep a track of the use of the services by the customers - it's not through the CDMA thing?---No, we have a fairly sophisticated billing system that is obviously technologically connected to the network infrastructure and if you want to go one step more detailed than that you've got the wrong person in the stand, but essentially, that's how it works.
PN3054
What do you call the staff who operate or perform the billing functions?---It's a combination of staff. Some of them are IT professionals and some of them what we call billing and administration type people.
PN3055
Building administration?---Billing.
PN3056
And I presume they are using some computerised equipment that is connected to the network that you refer to in order to perform?---Correct.
PN3057
So just in very basic terms - and I apologise - the customer uses a phone, what happens so that the tracking can occur?---The customer makes a call. It obviously registers back with the network. There is some sort of technical transfer of information there to register on the billing system. A bill is produced on a monthly basis that obviously categorises and lists the number of calls you've made and charges you accordingly. The bill gets sent out.
PN3058
And where would the staff performing this billing function fit in with the various categories that you've got in your statement?---Point number 11. The billing administration people are located in the commercial operations group. The people that work on it from a more IT perspective obviously are part of that point number 18.
PN3059
Can you just assist me? I know that you did go through - firstly, where are they located, the billing system staff - commercial operations, is that New South Wales?---There are some Sydney, some in Melbourne and a small number in Brisbane.
PN3060
You don't have numbers?---No, the greater majority of them are actually in Melbourne.
PN3061
Can you advise me which agreement or award you say covers those various people?---They would be covered by the Clerical and Administrative Award that we mentioned earlier.
PN3062
In?---Victoria
PN3063
In Victoria?---And in Sydney and Brisbane obviously by the State Clerical Awards that are mentioned in the statement.
PN3064
You have 149 IT people and you've explained that some of them are involved in the billing area. What other areas of Hutchison are they involved working in?---Well, in a telecommunications company the information technology group basically touches every part of the business so they work very closely with the networks group. They're heavily involved with sales in terms of providing appropriate backup systems for the various sales channels that we have. They work closely with marketing on marketing programs. They clearly work closely with groups like finance and so very - they're tentacles go out to every part of the company.
PN3065
And I presume that the - I just asked you a question about the IT people working in the billing system the same - they're distributed in those same states?---No, the greater majority of them, in fact, all of them are in Sydney with regard to the billing system.
PN3066
It's just that the billing system was spread across three states but the IT - - -?---Not the actual system.
PN3067
No, the staff, sorry?---The function of administration is spread across three states but the actual technological component of it is managed in Sydney.
PN3068
Then the IT people referred to in paragraph 18, they are also situated in the various states - those same states?---No, the greater - almost all of them are situated in Sydney. We have very few people in Brisbane that support the technology that runs the call centre and I think we might even have one or two people in Melbourne. By far the greater majority are based in our IT centre in Sydney.
PN3069
Okay, so the information technology employees, to clarify it, are working with software, not hardware? They operate software, not hardware?---Correct. Clearly, in an IT organisation you computer operators so it's not strictly true to say that they don't touch hardware. There's some operation of hardware required. They don't fix hardware.
PN3070
Now, if I could just go to - could you just explain. You said the internet service - as an internet service provider, that's a small part of your business, can you explain again, and not in a very technical way, how you provide that service?---Yes, we have about three to four thousand customers. It's mainly a corporate oriented system but it's not dissimilar to an ISP that you might know like an Ozemail. Similar sort of principle where we offer access to the internet to those customers. We run the system on a couple of computers within the company and we market the product to those customers.
PN3071
And how do you offer access to the internet through your - - -?---It's through a wireline type approach rather than a wireless technology at this point.
PN3072
Is that something you - the wireline, is it your own?---No. They would be using their own wireline.
PN3073
They would be using their own wireline?---Well, they'd be - obviously, if - as an example, they'd have a contract with Optus or Telstra and they're taking out an internet service with us so we charge them on a monthly basis.
PN3074
So they use - they ring up - I ring up the phone to connect into the - through the, say, Telstra line. It doesn't hit an interconnection or point of presence at some point from which they then access they're network?---They're really calling in to our computer which then provides the interface to the internet for them and we're guaranteeing them so many hours a month at a certain rate to be able to surf the web.
PN3075
Now, if I could just go through the award coverage that Mr Parry took you through and clarified a few points. With the sales executives - do you call them sales executives, the staff you - - -?---No, we call them sales consultants.
PN3076
Sales consultants? These are the ones that you say are covered by the various commercial travellers awards?---Correct.
PN3077
And you mention that they call on customers?---Correct.
PN3078
And dealers?---Correct.
PN3079
Which products - for all of your products or are there different - is there a differentiation between a direct sale to a customer or through the dealer?---The direct channel is required to be knowledgable about all the products. The dealer channel is less likely to be required to do that. Our main dealers obviously in Sydney and Melbourne are focussed on Orange One and Optus GSM Resale. Outside of Sydney and Melbourne the main focus is either Optus GSM Resale or Telstra CDMA Resale.
PN3080
But as a proportion between direct sales to the end user compared to through the dealer, roughly what - - -?---Dealer by far is the most significant channel. Fairly significant difference percentage wise.
PN3081
Firstly, with the Clerks Award, you indicated, I think through questioning with Mr Parry, that you bound by this award as a consequence of the finding of an industrial dispute?---Which state was that in?
PN3082
Victoria - Clerks Victoria Commercial Award?---Look, I'm not - I think the Commissioner was saying that there was some dispute going back which I think may well have been before my time but I'm taking the Commissioner's obvious knowledge on that but I'm not aware of it.
PN3083
Well, in - representing the organisation, I understand your saying you have direct knowledge because you don't go that far back but is it correct to presume that because Hutchison is bound by the award through the finding of a dispute, Hutchison believes that the ASU has the ability to represent the industrial interests of its staff covered by the award?---I wouldn't make that deduction but - you know, I wouldn't make that deduction.
PN3084
So with Victoria you refer to sales and distribution. That, I presume, is covered by the Commercial Clerks Award?---Sales would be Commercial Travellers.
PN3085
Sorry, no - Commercial Travellers - Victorian Commercial Travellers. The sales call centre is the agreement?---Correct.
PN3086
And the technical switch centre, no award, is that correct?---Correct.
PN3087
I'm curious in relation to the award in which I think, but you might be able to correct me, Hutchison is not a main respondent. Is that the Clerical Award or the Commercial Clerks Award in Victoria?---I think that's - we are an indirect respondent through our membership of BECI.
PN3088
Of BECI?---So that would be the Commercial Travellers Award.
PN3089
Commercial Travellers, I see?---The Commercial Sales (Victoria) Award 1999.
PN3090
So it's not through your membership of AIG but through BECI that you claim - you say you are covered by that award?---Correct.
PN3091
Just a question, there are two organisations, Hutchison Telecom and Hutchison Telecommunications Australia. Are they - well, there's two names. Are they different organisation?---No, they're the same organisations. I suspect the actual company name is Hutchison Telecommunications Australia Limited. Hutchison Telecom is like a brand name.
PN3092
When you resale - - -?---If you look at a lot of our old material before we rebranded to Orange, it's Hutchison Telecom's.
PN3093
With the second tier Queensland agreement, can you tell me or do you have any knowledge how that agreement that was something that was made in the context of your - Hutchison's original presence in Australia as a paging company - that transferred through in it's application to Hutchison currently as it is in Queensland?---In terms of why we're still using it today?
PN3094
No, why are - why do you say you're still covered by it?---Because my understanding is that in Queensland we get regular updates of - you know, appropriate rates to pay from the history of that - it goes back a long time - and we do abide by the original intents of that.
PN3095
I was more curious as to the legal mechanism by which you would say you were covered. I understand that you provide updates?---Yes.
PN3096
So clearly you refer to those updates?---No, look, I'm unclear about that.
PN3097
What rates - you don't have the current rates that are under that - - -?---No, I don't have them with me.
PN3098
Can you explain - I'm curious as to its in it - its failure to be in your statement in the beginning - it seems to be - it's emerged in the subsequent, and you've said that you've used it, it's been a long standing arrangement which were made up when you joined the company - when you prepared the statement it wasn't there?---Can I clarify that for you?
PN3099
Sure?---I - I clearly - someone working for me helped me pull that together and it's only in recent days that I've had an opportunity to check it - realised that it wasn't there, and as part of the processes of obviously making sure the statement is correct, I felt it appropriate to correct it in this forum.
PN3100
So, did you - when did you sign the statement, Mr Bourke?---I don't know that I have signed it. Have I - is the copy you've got signed?
PN3101
No. But it's been a bit difficult to know what has been signed, and I thought it would have all been sworn by now?---The copy I have is not signed.
PN3102
..........: No, it's - the process has been the witness has adopted it in box.
PN3103
MS JONES: With the various - you've got various awards, and so forth covering set categories of employees. Using the example of the employees employed in commercial operations which is where your billing staff are. Firstly, can you tell me with respect to the billing staff, are they - what sort of experience are billing staff required to have?---Generally some sort of clerical background. I mean, most of their day is spent in front of a computer essentially processing information.
PN3104
And so they perform across, I think, it's the two states. Is that right?---Mainly - the main operation is definitely in Melbourne.
PN3105
Yes, but you have different - - -?---I think there is isolated people in Sydney and Melbourne - Sydney and Brisbane, sorry.
PN3106
Do you pay the same rates of pay?---Approximately.
PN3107
What are they?---Exact amounts? I haven't got those.
PN3108
Well, perhaps you could give the staffing base at least?---In terms of the - look I can't just - I wouldn't have that. We do take the - again the clerical awards as a - as a fundamental minimum and then we pay people over and above that according to their performance.
PN3109
So, you don't have a starting base for employees when they come into commercial operations performing that work?---We would have a starting base according to their experience.
PN3110
According to their experience? I see?---Mm.
PN3111
So - and the experience is just limited clerical work?---Yes, it's a fairly basic clerical role, so.
PN3112
So, what experience are you looking for? If it's a limited clerical role, what's the experience that you're looking for?---We would look for someone that could show that they know how to operate a computer system at a very basic level. Who was reasonably numerate, and could display a reasonable track record of accuracy in clerical work.
PN3113
Are you able to provide us with the accurate information about what you do pay, given you say that they pay - you pay similar rates across the states?---Sure.
PN3114
And with your customer service employees you have, I think, two major call centres. Is that fair to say in Victoria and New South Wales?---With customer service, did you say?
PN3115
Yes, customer service employees. The 579?---Yes, the - no, there's one main large customer service centre, which is Brisbane. We have a quite small messaging centre in Sydney and Adelaide. And the centre in Melbourne is a sales call centre.
PN3116
So, the sales call centre performs in Melbourne - performs a different function to the one in Brisbane?---Correct.
PN3117
What's the difference? Could you just briefly say?---The difference is that the sales call centre handles - what we call - inbound and outbound traffic and the customer service call centre in Brisbane, handles customer queries with regard to our messaging or paging business, and the greater majority of work is related to handling customer issues as they relate to our Orange One Network and our Optus GSM resale business.
PN3118
And so, again with respect to these, do you - what experience when you recruit someone - do you require any experience or is off the job - off the - off the street fine with Hutchison?---Off the street. We actually provide fairly extensive training, so off the street happens quite a lot. It's a very basic task that the greater majority of people are required to do, and we provide, you know, professional level training to help them understand our processes and systems.
PN3119
So, it's a very basic level task. Answering customer inquiries and dealing with customer complaints, is it?---There's two two levels. The paging side or the messaging side is quite fundamentally basic where you're receiving calls and just relaying information into the system. The customer service environment is again, reasonably basic in the sense that you're taking customer issues which might have something to do with their billing or the actual product. Some understanding of the product itself is necessary. People are trained on that and they're provided with fairly tight guidelines of how they're to respond to customer queries, if you like.
PN3120
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Bourke, with your Optus GSM on sale, if somebody has a concern about the operation of their mobile phone, which call centre do they ring? Very often it's programmed in on sim card?---Yes.
PN3121
A help number. Who do they ring? Do they ring Optus or do they ring you?---No, they ring us. If they're our customer, even though they're on the Optus network, they ring us.
PN3122
So, you will then deal with any complaints about the operation of the Optus network?---Correct.
PN3123
Thank you.
PN3124
MS JONES: And does that complaint then go to - I presume there's a 1300 number or something equivalent?---Yes, 13188 or something like that.
PN3125
That gets routed through and then goes to the call centre. So who would deal with that sort of complaint about the fault about the phone that Commissioner Smith just referred to?---Well, I understand the Commissioner's point is, that if the optus network went down for instance. If you had a complaint about the network, they would ring us, we would - we would already know that the optus network was down, and we'd advise them how long it was down, and so the operators would be advised that the optus network is down for the next hour, you know, so you don't get a lot of customer calls.
PN3126
So, you don't - so you wouldn't get a lot of customer calls?---No, you would get a lot of customer calls, so we'd advise all the operators that you are going to get a lot of calls, and the reason why you are going to get a lot of calls is because the optus network is down. This is the response that we suggest you give to the customer when they ring up. It will be back up in an hour, and thanks for your patience.
PN3127
THE COMMISSIONER: Something like, your call is important to us?---Exactly.
PN3128
..........: While listening to Ode to Joy.
PN3129
MS JONES: So, you've described the - firstly, so the Brisbane - just to clarify me to, is covered by that certified second tier - no, they're clerical employees awards. No. The certified - the second tier agreement is that right?---Yes.
PN3130
That's the - that's what you say covers the Brisbane call centre?---Correct.
PN3131
And who covers the one in Melbourne? The inbound/outbound service?---Well, we have the enterprise agreement which is fundamentally based on, if you like - as a - as a foundation - the Clerical Administrative Employees Award.
PN3132
The Hutchison Enterprise Agreement covers - covers those?---Mm.
PN3133
And with respect to the - you've got here - I'm curious, you've got roughly 121 employees who are award free at paragraph 12. Who are they?---Well, if you go to paragraph 13, I think it details it.
PN3134
Then who are the 47 employees, who is not detailed?---In Western Australia?
PN3135
That's right?---That's our Western Australia operations, so that comprises of some sales folks and - they're mainly sales people in there and some administrative people.
PN3136
And how many sales - so it's mainly, out of that 47 mostly sales?---Correct.
PN3137
And they perform similar work to the work of the 260 employees covered by the commercial travellers awards in those various states?---Yes.
PN3138
And do they receive the same rates of pay?---Similar rates.
PN3139
Similar?---Well, again it's a very performanced based culture, so, you know, it's not all exactly the same.
PN3140
So, you don't start of with a base rate for your commercial travellers?---We do, we do.
PN3141
Is the base rate the same ?---Base rate is the same, yes.
PN3142
Across every state?---I think it varies slightly from state to state. But not by much.
PN3143
So, where would be the higher range and where would be the lower range?---Probably Sydney and Melbourne would be slightly higher. There would be a market rate that's slightly higher for those two states.
PN3144
So, Sydney and Melbourne there's a market rate?---Yes. Most of - with the - with these people, I mean, while we're talking about commercial travellers and so forth, they're very low rates and the telecommunications industry is very competitive, so we're paying quite high base rates, compared to the award.
PN3145
I'm curious the sales people - presumably they're critical in bringing in work, that goes without saying - what sort of experience do you look for when you recruit sales people?---Well, fundamentally, they must have a track record in having sold successfully.
PN3146
In where? Any where? In any industry?---No. In some occasions we take people from outside the telecommunications industry.
PN3147
In some occasions? So mostly you take them from within the telecommunications industry?---Often.
PN3148
And where would you recruit them from?---What companies?
PN3149
What organisations, yes?---Optus. I mean all the competitors. Telstra.
PN3150
Telstra?---Vodafone.
PN3151
With the customer service employees, do you have an internal classification system for them?---An internal classification system?
PN3152
Yes?---Yes, we do.
PN3153
So, you start off, we have an award base that you say that you use?---Yes.
PN3154
And is that consistent across the states?---Yes, it is. We use a broadbanding concept which allows us a lot of flexibility to again, renumerate people on performance.
PN3155
So you have the same internalised system across every state?---Correct.
PN3156
But, there are some differences, I think you said, in starting off with the base?---Depending on experience.
PN3157
So by comparison, with your customer service employees who you say you don't necessarily require minimal experience, I think you said, you often recruit your sales people with telecommunications industry experience from your major competitors?---Yes, that's a fair comment.
PN3158
With the paging staff, which is really - I understand, but please correct me, and I have no doubt you will - in the - are they in the Brisbane call centre or in the Melbourne - Sydney sorry?---Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne is where we have messaging operations.
PN3159
So did they operate your network commitment - sorry, network equipment?---No.
PN3160
What did they do?---The messaging - the messaging operators are basically carrying out a very basic procedure where they sit in front of a terminal. They take the customer call. The customer rings up and says, Please, I want to leave a message, please ring Greg Bourke. They type that into the system and push a send button.
PN3161
I see, so what they do is they convert the oral customer message into text?---Correct.
PN3162
Which is transmitted to their wireless paging device, that is the customers?---Correct.
PN3163
PN3164
MR BENFELD: Thank you. Mr Bourke, can I take you to your statement at number six, paragraph 6. When you talk about the physical design and build of the technical network?---Mm.
PN3165
I understood you to say earlier that Samsung actually structured the network for you?---Correct.
PN3166
And that was under contract?---Correct.
PN3167
And you also went on to refer to the base statement - sorry, base stations?---Mm.
PN3168
Were they also constructed under contract to another party?---They were constructed through numerous third parties.
PN3169
What sort of third parties?---What names?
PN3170
For example, yes ?---Well, like Cellsite International, was one company. Transfield.
PN3171
And is the maintenance of those base stations you referred again to third parties - is the maintenance also performed by third parties?---Most often the difficult maintenance would be.
PN3172
Now, I understood you also to say that the technical network operators also are involved in maintaining the base stations?---Yes.
PN3173
Is their role in the maintenance largely of supervision?---Possibly a combination of both without getting into too much detail. There is some equipment there that our people would need to go and monitor and depending on any - the complexities of the issues they may need to call in third parties.
PN3174
Are these - the 292 employees you describe performing technical duties at 14, and you give more detail later. Are they award free?---Yes.
PN3175
Now, at 16, you talk about the network operators holding degrees in engineering. What sort of - what field in engineering do they hold degrees in?---Can be a number of different fields, but principally electrical engineering and mechanical engineering.
PN3176
And the electrical engineering, do they tend to specialise in telecommunication?---Often.
PN3177
Now, I notice nine of those employees are not degree qualified. Would they be TAFE qualified or qualified in any way?---Well, yes. They would certainly qualified in the sense of some of these people have, like, the TAFE electronics certificate.
PN3178
Could you describe the work they undertake as eloquent work?---Could I describe it as that way? No, I don't think it's probably electronics as we probably think about it.
PN3179
How do you describe it?---I think it's more, what I'd call, network engineering work.
PN3180
Which of course includes a large degree of electronic expertise?---The reason I'm hesitating is that I'm just think of the work that they do and they're not people that are going in and fixing, if you like, I guess, the detailed electrical components of some of the equipment. Some may, I guess.
PN3181
Are they more concerned with the software application of the equipment?---They need to understand that.
PN3182
And at 17 you refer to another 52 employees. Eight of which do not hold degrees. Do they hold TAFE qualifications and the like, instead?---They would.
PN3183
And what are those employees called?---The 52 employees, they would be doing - they would be doing work associated with the base stations, so some of them would be doing project management work to do with site acquisition.
PN3184
What do you call the code? All the others are categorised in one way or another?---They are called everything from project managers to site - site acquisition specialist, construction type specialists.
PN3185
Are the sort of employees largely involved in supervising or co-ordinating third party contractors?---Correct.
PN3186
Thank you.
PN3187
THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Bennett?
PN3188
PN3189
MS BENNETT: Mr Bourke, I would just like to take you back to the customer service employees. In Victoria they are covered by the clerical award?---Mm.
PN3190
You've described them as performing fairly basic clerical and administrative functions. Would you consider them to be classified as clerical and administrative employees in terms of the functions they perform?---Yes.
PN3191
Now, the sales call centre people. They deal with inbound and outbound traffic. But is it my understanding that they basically sit at a terminal with a phone and perform a fairly basic clerical administrative function?---Correct.
PN3192
And the messaging centres, again, from your description of the work performed, would you think that the best description of them is, sort of, basic cleric and administrative employees?---Correct.
PN3193
In Victoria, given that, your enterprise agreement for the sales call centre is based on the Clerical Administrative Employees State Victoria Award. Do you believe that that is the best instrument in which to cover the work of these people?---Yes.
PN3194
Can I just take you to - actually, I'm just seeking some clarification from paragraph 18?---Mm.
PN3195
The information and technology employees - - -?---Sorry.
PN3196
149 employees?---Yes.
PN3197
Are responsible for the overall information systems within Hutchison - Hutchison, sorry - when you say within Hutchison, are you talking about the entire network between the offices in Sydney and Melbourne and out there into the Ether or are you talking about your internal systems as well?---No, I'm talking about our internal systems.
PN3198
Your internal systems?---Are you referring to the systems that would then go on to the customer?
PN3199
I'm actually referring - yes, I'm seeking clarification?---To the wire free technology?
PN3200
Yes?---No, the wire free technology is with the network group and the internal systems are run by the information technology group.
PN3201
So of those 149 employees, the information technology group actually operate and perhaps service your internal system within Hutchison?---Correct.
PN3202
Thank you, I have no further questions.
PN3203
PN3204
MR PARRY: If the Commission pleases. Mr Bourke, you have been asked a number of questions about the awards and agreements that apply to Hutchison. Is it the position of Hutchison that prefers the current arrangements to continue in respect of those various awards and agreements?---Yes.
PN3205
Now, you have been asked a number of questions about - the technical questions about hardware and so forth. Do I understand it that basically the hardware that is dealt with is in the switching centres and the hardware for the operations you run is also via these base stations which distribute the signal?---Yes, the greater majority of the hardware is in the switching centres. There is some hardware in each of the base station sites to obviously help transfer - help receive and transfer the signal on to the customer.
PN3206
You don't operate through the optical wire networks, do you?---No.
PN3207
You were asked a question by the Commissioner about if somebody rings and he gave the example to you of somebody ringing with a problem and what would happen, a problem with Optus, for example, and you gave a response that we would tell them that the network was down. Is it the position that there's a script given on a screen and the employee is following a script essentially?---Correct.
PN3208
Yes, I have nothing further if the Commission pleases.
PN3209
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, before you sit down, could I just ask one other question. I ring up mobile phone and I say to them, look, I'm not getting call line identification. Who advises me as to what to do and to program the phone to ensure that I get that?---The - the customer service representative would - would take your query. If there was not an obvious reason - you know, like, for instance, that might be a network issue and they would have been advised by the network technical people that customers are going to have this problem and be back on line in, you know, X amount of time. If - if it was an isolated instance and it was just happening to you then they, the group, would then refer it on to our technical team in Sydney to deal with it.
PN3210
But they would be sufficiently knowledgeable to say, all right, well, press the menu button?---Yes.
PN3211
Cursor down to settings, select this?---Yes.
PN3212
Now, press on?---Yes, they are sufficiently trained in the product to be able to advise you how to work your way through the menu and they work on reasonably, if you like, sophisticated manuals that step them through the process and then step you through the process.
PN3213
Yes, thank you. Is there anything that arises out of that?
PN3214
MR PARRY: Nothing that arises, Commissioner, no.
PN3215
PN3216
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Tamplin?
PN3217
MR TAMPLIN: Commissioner, I am mindful that I am sitting here and incurring costs against my employer and naturally I'm happy to do that, however, I would like to look at where we go to. I anticipate Mr Parry's first witness today will be late this afternoon and that would probably mean further submissions tomorrow, depending on your views of the section 111AAA. In either event, I think we're probably going to - and I'm only speaking on my behalf - probably going to need some written transcript before we deal with the written submissions to ensure that we've covered all the areas.
PN3218
I am only look at some form of timetabling. Perhaps it may be necessary to fix a further day for final submissions perhaps after they have been put to you in writing.
PN3219
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, why don't we see where we get up to tomorrow afternoon, but I think it's appropriate that parties be alerted as to whether or not the matter would finish. It's essentially a matter for the parties as to how they want to present their case and whether or not an application is made for an adjournment to consider the transcript.
PN3220
MS JONES: Well, perhaps the parties could have a little discussion in the luncheon break then. That might be the best way given that you've said that.
PN3221
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN3222
MR TAMPLIN: Thank you, Commissioner.
PN3223
THE COMMISSIONER: I think we will take five minutes before the next witness.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.34am]
RESUMED [11.50am]
PN3224
THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry we took a bit long but the phone always rings when you stand next to it. Yes, Mr Parry?
PN3225
PN3226
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, please sit down, Mr Simon.
PN3227
MR PARRY: Mr Simon, what is your full name and address?---John Claude Simon, 5 La Peruse Street, Fairlight, New South Wales.
PN3228
Where are you employed?---WorldxChange Communications.
PN3229
What position do you hold there?---Chief executive officer.
PN3230
Do you have a copy of a statement prepared for these proceedings before you?---Not before me right here.
PN3231
That is one problem I'll have to overcome.
PN3232
THE COMMISSIONER: Give the witness a copy of his statement, thank you.
PN3233
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
PN3234
MR PARRY: Now, Mr Simon, if I could take you to the second page and paragraph 6?---Yes.
PN3235
Now, perhaps it might be the simplest thing of all if we delete paragraph 6 and paragraph 14 and I ask Mr Simon a couple of questions about those employees that he seeks to cover in those paragraphs. Now, Mr Simon, you have a number of employees employed in - I'm sorry, I withdraw that. Perhaps explain to the Commission how many employees you have in Sydney and where they are?---In Sydney exactly?
PN3236
Yes, in Sydney?---We have in total 221 employees around Australia. Sydney makes up the majority of those employees. Off the top of my head I don't actually - can give you an exact number so the call centre staff, the majority of the - the staff I outlined in item 7, are also in Sydney and item 9, item 10 and some of 12. So, I'd have to go into a - I haven't done a calculation breakdown for those in Sydney to be able to give you an exact number.
PN3237
Is it the position that the vast bulk of your staff numbers are in Sydney?---Correct. Roughly I would say of the 221, all but roughly 30 would be in state offices. So, 30 in state offices and 190 odd in the Sydney office.
PN3238
And the 30 in state offices are in - there's some in Melbourne?---Some in Melbourne, some in Brisbane and a couple in Perth.
PN3239
What do the people in Melbourne do?---Basically sales, as I outlined in item 12.
PN3240
Yes?---And similar in Brisbane and there'd be one person in Brisbane, Melbourne and Perth, each performing some of the functions in item 7.
PN3241
Now, to return to Sydney?---Yes.
PN3242
You mentioned a call centre?---Yes.
PN3243
Where is that?---In our North Sydney office.
PN3244
How many employees work in the call centre and related functions?---125.
PN3245
Perhaps if you could describe to the Commission what that call centre does?---Okay. The call centre provides support for our customers and for our marketing and agent channels. So, they take inbound calls on our products and services which cover a range of communication and information services and they also perform some outbound calls as necessary, they handle fault management, billing inquiries and quality assurance functions.
PN3246
What sort of qualifications do these - or employees that work in the call centre - have?---A large - a large proportion of those employees wouldn't have any formal qualifications. On taking inbound calls we employ both part-time and full-time people, mothers coming back into the work force who would want to work anywhere between 16 to 30 hours a week or people who see that they want to move into the telecommunications industry as a career and they see the call centre as a means of moving into that. So, we often employ staff and put a lot of training and development into them.
PN3247
When you say - I think one of the things they did, you said, was fault management?---Correct.
PN3248
What sort of faults would they be told about?---Basically, in the case of international calls, it may be calls to a particular country or a particular city aren't terminating so they would work with our operations group to try and identify what - what the cause is and have that rectified. They themselves wouldn't rectify it. That would be our operations group who are, obviously, a high level of qualification. They tend to be engineering related functions and they work hand in hand with them to have them resolved.
PN3249
Now, these particular employees, what sort of hours do they work?---The majority of the staff are employed full time in the call centre. They're expected to work - their normal conditions would be 32 hours a week and then we have others that are part-time which are expected to work 16 hours a week.
PN3250
Full time for you is 32 hours a week?---Correct.
PN3251
What sort of wages do these people start off on?---Full time would start anywhere between 30 to $38,000 so the majority would start at the lower end of that and then work their way up towards that $38,000 mark.
PN3252
Have you made any inquiries in your organisation as to how the conditions there relate to the State Clerical Awards in New South Wales?---Yes, the analysis by our HR function shows that actual remuneration is about the State Awards and as far as the other related matters such as leave, we would pay four weeks leave, sick leave and all the various legislative conditions around superannuation contributions, etcetera. So, we consider that our remunerations and benefits package is - well exceeds that of any state and or federal award.
PN3253
And you want the current arrangements to continue?---Most definitely.
PN3254
Now, your statement goes on and deals with, in paragraph 9, it at the moment refers to:
PN3255
...approximately 14 WorldxChange employees classified as being involved in the finance area.
PN3256
?---Mm.
PN3257
Do you want to change that?---To 15.
PN3258
In paragraph 13?---Yes.
PN3259
It refers to eight WorldxChange employees in marketing?---Correct.
PN3260
I am sorry, it says six and it should be eight?---It says six there. It should be eight.
PN3261
You want to delete paragraph 14. I think we've covered that in your earlier answer?---Yes.
PN3262
What - and perhaps this goes back to the call centre people - what data entry work do they perform?---The data entry is very much a clerical type function. Applications for - to join our service come in so therefore they basically take those applications in and enter them off hard copy forms and enter them into our systems which kicks off the process of provisioning our customers.
PN3263
Yes, subject to those amendments that Mr Simon has identified, I tender that witness statement.
PN3264
PN3265
MR PARRY: If the Commission pleases.
PN3266
THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Jones?
PN3267
MS JONES: Mr Simon, you indicated at paragraph 3 that you have three types of customers, a consumer, commercial and carrier markets and then you identify various services or products that you provide in paragraph 4?---Mm.
PN3268
Do you provide those same services to every - to each of those customers or does it vary?---Yes, there is some variation. For example, we wouldn't provide internet services to our carrier markets.
PN3269
Anything else?---No, most of the services that we provide in the consumer market, we also provide to the commercial market, albeit they have different - they may have a different product mix, if you like.
PN3270
For example, local untimed calls and national, international, long distance voice and fax calls, you provide that to the carrier market, do you?---Well, we provide carriage for them to enable them to provide calls to - - -
PN3271
I see, on your network?---Yes.
PN3272
So that clarifies one question for me, being someone who's very inexperienced in this area; that is, that you have your own network?---Correct.
PN3273
Do you design that network - sorry, do you have employees who design that network?---Yes, yes.
PN3274
Where are the employees located in your, sort of, break up?---They would be in the item number 7, wide area network support, data base management, switch and equipment support.
PN3275
So you have your own network and you have switches?---Yes.
PN3276
Obviously?---Correct.
PN3277
And you have a network that connects with other carriers?---Correct, yes, we have interconnection with other carriers.
PN3278
And other carriers also purchase or use your capacity from you?---Yes.
PN3279
What carriers would purchase from you?---What carriers would purchase from us?
PN3280
Yes?---Optus, AAPT, MCI Worldcom.
PN3281
The employees, do you have a name for these employees in your company; do you call them something? The network area support, do you call them wide area or WAN?---We basically call them our operations group.
PN3282
Your operations group?---Yes.
PN3283
Are they involved in - or firstly, I should start, when you connect with a consumer do you get involved in the installation after that connection?---No.
PN3284
You don't?---No.
PN3285
Why is that?---Because most consumers' fixed line phones are already connected - connected to the Telstra Network so, really, what we're doing is switching their carriage to our service.
PN3286
The operations group, they're involved, presumably, in the maintenance of the network at the switches?---Correct. They maintain the switches.
PN3287
Yes?---They'll maintain any network function that we have designed and built out.
PN3288
What would they be; what, sort of, any network function are you referring to?---Well, they would be - we have a switch in each capital city so there would be a backbone network that would link the capital cities and in addition we have 27, what we call, points of presence around Australia and it would manage those points of presence back to the switch.
PN3289
Are those points of presence used for your internet service?---No.
PN3290
Solely?---Purely - purely for our voice services.
PN3291
For your voice services?---Yes.
PN3292
What do you mean by maintaining the switch; what is the work actually involved in that?---Forecasting capacity and looking at utilisation, putting orders in for additional capacity, installing that capacity, provisioning that capacity, working out the, what we call lease cost routes. In other words, the tables which routes a call will be switched to ensure, a, that it is switched correctly and, b, it's switched using the best pricing mix.
PN3293
So, in the switch, is there some computerised equipment that they - - -?---Correct.
PN3294
- - - use to do all these functions?---It's all with computing, yes.
PN3295
Do you - I presume that you have some means by which you track, for example, the various telephony services that you provide and so forth in terms of charging your customers?---Most definitely. That's a function of the switch so when a call is established and then a call is terminated, the details of that are kept - originating, terminating, the length of the call - that goes into a computer system which rates the call. It rates it according to the price plan that the customer has selected and then - that is done and then at the end of the month all of those various call records are rates - actually, I tell a lie - during the month the calls are rated real time. At the end of the month the invoice is produced and shipped to the customer.
PN3296
Which staff would, once the data from the switch comes in to be invoiced or whatever into a bill, which staff are - - -?---The operation support group are basically responsible for all of our computer and switching equipment. So, in this case, the database management group that I mentioned there are responsible for call rating and billing.
PN3297
So where you say they're employed under the network, they perform technical telecommunications work, do you say that in relation to the billing people - the database management or is that - - -?---Correct. They maintain and manage the information technology systems that run our call rating and billing systems and then - I mean, ultimately finance presses the figure in producing the invoice, but the systems and the call rating are making sure that is maintained - is a function of the item - those people listed in item 7.
PN3298
You indicated in relation to the call centre people in Sydney that - I think you said that they start - many come to work with you other than women who've returned to the workforce after having children and - as a basis for entering into the telecommunications industry as a career?---Yes.
PN3299
Could you just enlarge on that? What do you mean, they start off there are move on or - can you explain what - - -?---Yes, I mean, I guess the call centre industry is one that's I think perceived by many as a means of coming into the telecommunications and IT industry. It's seen as being more lucrative so therefore they see it as a ground floor opportunity. I think it's not - it's quite common knowledge that when you speak to many people in call centres it's not their intention to be working in their long term. And, as a result of that - you can even see it within the WorldxChange. There are many people in WorldxChange that have come into the business at the call centre level and have now been promoted into other areas and performing other functions.
PN3300
What would the other areas be?---Some have moved into sales. Some have moved into - actually to operations as well by the time - where we've put some training in with the individual to train them up technically and we've moved them across into the operations group.
PN3301
You indicated that as part of the fault management functions in a call centre that they have to work hand in hand with the operations group until the problem is resolved. In other words, I guess a problem is brought to them by a customer and then - what do you mean by "work hand in hand"?---I guess one of the first things we're trying to determine is, is the problem a recurring one or was it a one off, so they - the call centre will look at the statistics which the systems automatically track as to the number of the faults and whether those faults have a common destination. If that's the case, then they work with operations - or at least report that to operations. Operations will then undertake to determine to see if they can isolate the fault and rectify it. Once they've done that they report back to the call centre people who, in that same process, have an obligation to try and report a status back to our customers, particularly our business customers, so that they're not left in the dark because some of these faults can be rectified quickly. At other times it might take a few hours. So the customers like to be kept informed, so we make it an obligation of the call centre or the function of the call centre to call the customers back to give them an update as to the status of the problem.
PN3302
And I gather from that that in the initial stages the call centre employee has to make some decisions about - when you said whether it's a re-occurring problem, there is some decision making that they have to go through prior to calling in the operations group?---Not really. I think what they're really doing is more logging the problem. Our systems will report as to whether there are other problems logged of a similar nature at which point, if it reaches a certain threshold, we'd consider that to be of permanent fault, which they then report up to operations. So they don't make the decision as to whether it should be acted upon or not. They're really just reporting back.
PN3303
But they have to decide whether it's a permanent fault or something that - based on the information you provide to them?---Operations will decide as to whether it's a permanent fault. They will use the data collected by the call centre to make that decision.
PN3304
I presume - I think you also said that you provide a substantial amount of training and development for the call centre staff, is that correct?---Correct.
PN3305
And no doubt that's reflected in the rates of pay that you provide to them. So I presume then that the call centre staff, as your public face of the company, require high level skills to perform the work?---Yes. Well, it depends what you mean by high level skills.
PN3306
When I say high level, compared to - not in the operational sense, but not in a basic clerical sense?---The majority of people that we would have in our call centre function don't come with any particular tertiary education. They may have as a result of another job and they've then desired to move into the telecommunications industry. What we tend to look for with call centre people are people that (a) can present well over the phone; (b) are calm; and (c) can work under stress. That's the nature of the industry - now, does that mean that there are high level - I guess, if that's your definition of high level, then possibly, but it's not really a level of educational level of technical knowledge that we seek.
PN3307
But there is particular skills that you value, which you've just enumerated?---Correct, and intensively more, the interpersonal skills than anything else.
PN3308
And how long is the training that you give them?---When they first join, they go through a period of about two weeks of training and then after the initial month when they are then deployed into the Call Centre - after one month we'll pull them back out and give them another couple of days of training, just to refresh and make - and I guess gauge, how they've gone. And then, every month there would be additional top-up training sessions and up-dates - yes.
PN3309
So, it's an ongoing intensive process?---It's an ongoing basis, yes.
PN3310
MS JONES: I have no further questions in cross. Thank you very much.
PN3311
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you Ms Jones. Mr Benfield?
PN3312
MS JONES: Sorry, could I just clarify?
PN3313
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN3314
MS JONES: You said that there were no award arrangements in New South Wales, what about the - - -?---Other States?
PN3315
Yes?---They're the same in the other States.
PN3316
Same in the other States. Thank you.
PN3317
MR PARRY: I'm sorry - no award arrangements?
PN3318
MS JONES: Well, let me be clear. You said, I think, that you - well, in your statement you don't say that you are covered by any awards. In fact, you said quite clearly, that your rates of pay far exceed the Clerical Award when you examined it?---Mm.
PN3319
Then we discussed - there are, for example, sales employees in, I think, it's - - -?---Brisbane.
PN3320
- - - Australia, Brisbane?---Yes, correct.
PN3321
Sydney and Melbourne?---Yes.
PN3322
I put - do you - perhaps, you can clarify? What is their position? Are they covered by an award?---No. I do not believe they are covered by award.
PN3323
PN3324
MR BENFIELD: Mr Simon, can I ask you about your statement - it's paragraphs 7 and 8?---Yes.
PN3325
It's in relation to the operations support group?---Mm.
PN3326
And, especially at 8, you refer to the qualifications held by those people?---Right, yes.
PN3327
Isn't it fair to say that that's a mixture of degree qualified engineers and technicians?---Yes, that would be one way of summarising it.
PN3328
And they are all involved in technical telecommunications work?---Yes.
PN3329
So they could be described as either telecommunications engineers or telecommunications technicians?---No.
PN3330
No?---No, because some of them have no telecommunications engineering background at all. They come from the information technology background, so they're Unix programmers, C programmers - so, they have no real knowledge of telecommunications in terms of transmission requirements that you normally associate when you - when you refer to the work telecommunications engineer, your normally imply someone whose got skills and tertiary education in transmission and electronic engineering. Many of these people don't come from that background. You really have a convergence here of information technology and telecommunications.
PN3331
Putting aside the engineers - the technicians?---Mm.
PN3332
Some of which would be performing telecommunications work?---Yes.
PN3333
So they could be described as telecommunication technicians?---Yes, yes.
PN3334
Thank you.
PN3335
PN3336
MS BENNETT: Mr Simon, in relation to the duties that you've identified that your Call Centre staff perform, would you categorise them in terms of the functions they perform as clerical and administrative staff?---I don't know. I've never thought of them that way. I guess, I categorise them as a - a function of a Call Centre, but I don't see them as being clerical - to me that conjures up and maybe it's my perception of clerical, of dealing with administration and paperwork. They tend not to do a lot of that. It tends to be human interface work that they're doing. They spend most of their time on the phone.
PN3337
And on the computer screen?---Correct.
PN3338
And on the computer system?---Yes.
PN3339
And they collect data and report to operations and report faults - would you consider this to be an administrative function?---There are some functions which are administrative within the Call Centre, yes.
PN3340
Okay, thank you. And just in paragraph 7, the operations staff?---Mm.
PN3341
If I understand correctly, from what you've said, do they support your own internal data base systems?---Yes.
PN3342
And they operate and service your internal network systems. Is that correct?---Correct.
PN3343
Thank you, no more questions.
PN3344
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Parry?
PN3345
MR PARRY: I have no re-examination.
PN3346
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you Mr Simon. Thank you for your evidence, you are excused.
PN3347
PN3348
THE COMMISSIONER: Two o'clock?
PN3349
MR PARRY: Two o'clock, or very soon thereafter. Perhaps - Mr Russell is meant to be here at two o'clock, so perhaps - - -
PN3350
THE COMMISSIONER: We can adjourn till 2.15 if you wish.
PN3351
MR PARRY: Yes, that probably would be safer, Commissioner.
PN3352
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I'll adjourn to 2.15.
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.18pm]
RESUMED [2.16pm]
PN3353
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Parry?
PN3354
PN3355
THE COMMISSIONER: Please sit down.
PN3356
MR PARRY: Mr Russett, would you give the Commission your full name and address?---Yes, my name is Karlton Keith Russett of 23 Murchison Street, St Ives.
PN3357
Where are you employed?---I am employed by RSL Com Proprietary Limited at The Atrium, Ground Floor, 601 Pacific Highway, St Leonards.
PN3358
And what is your position?---I'm Group Director Finance.
PN3359
Do you have a statement before you of a Mr Adrian John Coote?---I do.
PN3360
Now, I'm going to take you through that statement Mr Russett, with some corrections. Probably, the most obvious, first one being the name?---Yes.
PN3361
We did advise in the list of the name.
PN3362
THE COURT: Did you?
PN3363
MR PARRY: Yes.
PN3364
THE COURT: I ticked off the companies, not the names, sorry.
PN3365
MR PARRY: Indeed, the position will be that essentially, Mr Russett is going to adopt this statement.
PN3366
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN3367
MR PARRY: The reference is to RSL Com Pty Ltd. Who is the employer of staff - - -?---It should - - -
PN3368
At RSL Com?---It should be RSL Com Australia Proprietary Limited.
PN3369
And I think, you are employed as the Group Director Finance?---Yes.
PN3370
And how long have you been in that position for?---In that position, since October 90 - 2000. And previous - - -
PN3371
And before then?---Previously, Financial Controller of the Group since November 1997.
PN3372
Now the next paragraph speaks of direct knowledge of the primary functions of the business. What about direct knowledge of the primary duties of its employees, is that correct?---Well, I certainly have knowledge of the primary functions of the business and primary duties of its employees - the HR and Payroll Department, report to me.
PN3373
Now, attached to the statement is a document which is marked RSL01 - is that an extract out of the company prospectus?---It's an extract out of a flyer that was - accompanied the - the prospectus. It's not a - it's not actually the prospectus, but it was issued about the same time when we were proposing to float the company.
PN3374
In these proceedings, there has been placed before the Commission, extracts from a web page of RSL Com?---Mm.
PN3375
And those extracts which have been set out in a statement of Mr Jones have been provided to you, Mr Russett?---Mm.
PN3376
How do those extracts relate to the current position of RSL Com Australia?---As of today, they've - they're fairly accurate. The only matter which perhaps, should be correct, is any reference to RSLs Com Delta 3 Intranet, which was - which is referred to a couple of times. We switched that off some time ago. So, we're - we're not using those voice over internet protocols.
PN3377
What cable use or reliance, does RSL Com have?---In terms - in terms of cables, we're not a carrier. We have no - no fibre optics or - or infrastructure, the cable - the transmission cable, but we do have switches. We have the intelligent bit of the network.
PN3378
What about spectrum, do you utilise that?---No. We - we resell Optus and Vodafone mobile spectrum.
PN3379
Now, on the second page of the statement, paragraph numbered 5 there, there is reference to approximately 145 employees. Do you want to change that number?---Yes, to 130.
PN3380
And in the next paragraph, there is reference to 21 RSL Com employees engaged as sales representatives. Do you want to change that?---To five. Yes, to five.
PN3381
And in paragraph 11 over the page, there's reference to ten RSL Com employees engaged in data entry class?---To four.
PN3382
Do you want to change that?---Yes, to four.
PN3383
Are there any other particular changes you want to make to that statement?---No.
PN3384
And are the contents of it, true and correct?---Yes.
PN3385
MR PARRY: I tender that statement.
PN3386
PN3387
MR PARRY: Mr Russett, with regard to the 130 employees engaged as Customer Service Representatives, where are they based?---They are based primarily, in two locations. One is in Maroubra where Digitplus Operations are concerned and the other is in 601 Pacific Highway, St Leonards.
PN3388
And to go to the St Leonards site first, what do those employees do at St Leonards?---Well, there's two groups. There's the mobile phone group and there's the fixed wire phone group and the mobile phone - what - they both the same initial - they identify who calls in - the - the nature of the person ringing in with an issue. They listen to whatever the customer's issue is and they deal with it.
PN3389
When you say, "they deal with it", what do they do?---Well, it depends what the - the call's for. Some people call into pay. We encourage them to do it electronically over the phone, but some people like to talk to a human being, so they take their credit card number and - and enter that into the screen - the computer system and give them the number and say, "Thank you very much". Others will ask for - they've lost their bill, in which case we - we hit a button and send their bill reprint. Others would - would say that their phone doesn't work, their sim cards - they need a PUC code or whatever goes wrong with your mobile phone and there is an automated system for that, but you can look up the screen and - and you - and we can give them a code which they enter into the mobile phone and it works again.
PN3390
And some people complained about the bill, the amount of money or whatever or say they can't pay and we'll refer them off to the credit department.
PN3391
And what about the technical inquiries about the phone operation?---We're not hardware people so on the mobile phone side we'd be saying take it back to the person who sold you the phone, we don't sell phones and for a pure network type Tamworth is blacked out or whatever, it would be referred to Vodafone, we don't have people in trucks going around.
PN3392
And approximately how much of these CSRs paid?---They're in the low 30s, so 32,000.
PN3393
And the DigiPlus, what do the CSRs do there?---They're similar. The DigiPlus people - the business there uses override codes rather than preselections so a lot of it more is the payment side of the business and I guess the other distinguishing thing is that it is a lot of ethnical residential so they speak many different languages.
PN3394
Now as to the sales reps, where are they based?---The sales reps are based in - mainly in St Leonards. The mobile business does not use any direct sales, we have dealers. So these people are primarily fixed wire, business to business sale.
PN3395
And is there an order taking into account in respect of their employment?---Well they'll be commercial travellers.
PN3396
Now what about technicians and technical people, who does the technical work?---For switches are maintained under a maintenance contract by Erikson, so it's largely outsourced.
PN3397
Do RSLcom want to stay with its existing arrangements with regard to the staff that we have been discussing, the customer service representatives and the sales representatives?---Yes.
PN3398
Yes, I have nothing further if the Commission pleases.
PN3399
PN3400
MS JONES: I note from the information produced from your website which Mr Parry has taken you to that was contained in Mr Jones' statement. It said that you had offices over New South Wales, it said you had offices in Brisbane, Melbourne and Sydney?---Yes.
PN3401
Is that correct or is that not correct?---No, there's four people who are employed in Brisbane and there's about 20 people that are employed in Melbourne.
PN3402
And what do the four people do in Brisbane?---One's a mobile account manager and three are fixed wire sales representatives.
PN3403
I think you said 20 in Melbourne, is that correct?---Yes.
PN3404
What are they, the people there?---There's about four in the fixed wire side which would be a sales manager and three sales representatives and there'd be about 10 on a retentions or save team people in Melbourne on the mobile side, so that would be people whose mobile phone contracts are about to expire, we ring them up and attempt to sign them up again.
PN3405
Is that like a call centre or different sort of physical set up?---Well I have never seen the physical set up but I imagine that it is making outbound phone calls to people who are listed already as customers with a sales pitch.
PN3406
Sorry, I interrupted you with up to 14 employees?---There's the actual mobile national sales manager and some dealer managers - account managers.
PN3407
I also noted and I think you have answered this, that you operate it said an Erikson AXE10, whatever that is, international gateway switch in Sydney?---Yes.
PN3408
And two domestic switches in Melbourne and Brisbane?---Yes.
PN3409
That is true?---That's current, yes.
PN3410
So there is switches in Melbourne and Brisbane as well?---Yes.
PN3411
And they are all outsourced the maintenance and operation is totally outsourced?---They sit in containers and Erikson technicians open the door whenever it needs to be opened.
PN3412
But you said it was largely outsourced and I was just wondering whether someone comes in and operates as compared to maintenance or installation?---We don't touch the switches itself, but they're in North Ryde which is our international gateway, the biggest switch. We have people who can change the direction of where the calls are connected to.
PN3413
I see, where would they - what are they called, what sort of employees are they?---They're called the NOC, but I don't know - network operations centre.
PN3414
And are these technical employees are they, technical type employees?---Well they don't - they don't change, pull out cards and put them in or turn red lights into green lights.
PN3415
Yes, whatever that is?---I don't know either, but what they - the decision making that we've retained is that we want to be able to say if someone's ringing Lebanon, then we want to be able to send it via Optus or we send it by Telstra or we send it by PGE or we send it by Telecom New Zealand and the decision making is based on lowest cost and acceptable quality, so these are like programmers in a sense, they can change the programming of where the calls can - - -
PN3416
I see, might they fall under your paragraph 13 then?---Yes, they may, they may.
PN3417
And when you say development and - - -?---Although there is quite senior people so - and we may also consider them to be executives.
PN3418
Who go into the switches and make that - - -?---Well they are based out at the switch because another aspect of course you have got to do is to make sure that the switches are still working, so there's a bit of supervision - - -
PN3419
I see, so they are actually located in the switch area?---Well North Ryde area is, there are a small number of people at that particular area but they would make sure that Erikson are doing their job, but I wouldn't call them technicians.
PN3420
Right, so they oversee, supervise?---Supervise or make sure the contracts being reviewed.
PN3421
By pressing buttons or whatever they do to switch, change the switches, I am not sure what they do and it seems that you are not sure?---Well I know what their output is, their output is the lowest common cost, the lowest cost routing.
PN3422
Yes, sure?---And their other output is that the switch may need - not the switch, but the whole network needs to continuously grow or we may decide to expand into Hobart.
PN3423
To Hobart did you say?---Yes, we are not, but I use that as an example. But I guess what I am saying is they can analyse traffic profiles across our whole network and they can say add to Erikson, okay we see a need, please expand our network into Hobart. So there's that side of the role too.
PN3424
Have you been to that switch in North Ryde?---Have I been in the doors, no, I haven't been in the doors, but I've been in the office.
PN3425
I see, so the switch is separate to the office?---It's coolroom, anti dust all that sort of stuff.
PN3426
But within the office area?---Yes, my understand that it was a banking environment so its security is - - -
PN3427
So these people who would operate the switches in order to - or manipulate the switches would be located within the North Ryde offices and would walk into that coolroom?---Well Erikson used to have an office within our offices, but I believe they've moved a street or two away.
PN3428
So would it be fair to say that these people whom I think you say fall within paragraph 13 of your - - -?---Yes and the executives. As I said certainly running a network is very senior.
PN3429
It could be a range of people, but not limited to?---Yes, not limited to those.
PN3430
So their essential responsibility is ensuring efficient throughput of flow of the traffic to your network?---Keep the network running, keep the cost down and ensure that when it becomes economically unviable to - and economically viable to expand the network, it's done in a sensible manner by commissioning Erikson to expand it.
PN3431
In your attachment to the statement RSLO1, you talk about a service under DigiPlus, that talks about I think it is sort of single billing?---Mm.
PN3432
Now can you just explain what that involves?---You can make international calls, normal fixed wire calls so that's international long distance fixed to mobile, you can have a mobile phone and you can have an internet account and only get one bill with all those three things on it.
PN3433
Right and I note that this is a service that is provided to residential customers particularly ethnic communities, that is your - is that a niche market that you identify?---Yes, I mean we offer it to everybody, it's advertised in the Sunday papers.
PN3434
But it says particularly ethnic so I was just wondering why it would say that?---Well because if you negotiate a tremendous rate to a particular country, China, you tend to have a lot of Chinese customers. Its tradition has been - was built on the basis of international traffic.
PN3435
Do you - one of the other companies here, Macquarie provides that single billing service. Are you aware of that?---Well I'm not aware, I've never seen a Macquarie invoice, but I don't think we're the first one to ever - - -
PN3436
No, I was just wondering whether you saw them as a competitor, but you said you have never seen it so you are not aware?---I haven't seen their bill, but I - Macquarie - my impression of Macquarie is that they are large corporate customers, very few large corporate customers and that's not a market that we are really in.
PN3437
So your's is clearly the residential and because it is based on international traffic, it happens to be that it is the ethnic community?---Yes.
PN3438
Now you have got a series of products that you list in RSL01 and you say that you are a reseller. So as a customer - - -?---On the mobile side, I'd stress we are a reseller.
PN3439
Sorry, what?---On the mobile side, I'd stress that we're a reseller. We resell Optus and Vodafone but on fixed wiring, the definition gets a little blurrier because - - -
PN3440
Could you explain that?---I mean we're getting technical here but in the sense because it goes through our own switch we are not, I wouldn't call us a pure reseller. A pure reseller would be a call from Darwin - from Ayres Rock to the central west. We don't have any infrastructure anywhere near either of those locations and we'd probably use Telstra to deliver that call in which case we would resell that call, but if there's a call from Sydney to Melbourne, I would - I would consider that's over our network because we have switches at both ends but we don't own the cable in the middle.
PN3441
I see so it is an interconnection with the carriers through the switches?---Yes, we have lots of interconnect and we have some leased lines.
PN3442
THE COMMISSIONER: Just so that I can appreciate that a little further. You have mobile phone coverage?---But we are a pure reseller so we have - we resell Optus and we resell Vodafones.
PN3443
So you do not batch your service at all?---We send the bill as an RSLcom bill but the mobile phone will say Optus.
PN3444
MS JONES: So as a potential customer of yours, why would I want to purchase your service as compared to the carriers or other companies that you might resell from?---Well there's different reasons and depending on different products. From the mobile phone point of view what we value and consider why we are in existence there is our distribution network in the sense that you can walk into a store and see someone and talk to someone. As it happens they are not our employees, they are independent dealers, but every time they make a connection, we give them money. Another benefit is that they can connect to either Optus or Vodafone, they don't have to go to lots of shops to compare lots of different sales pitches. In terms of the fixed wire side, particularly international, I would consider DigiPlus to be a bit of a cost leader. Traditionally it's been that. Today we're more into loyalty schemes and the fact that we've got one bill, we've got more and more services to the - you can get your internet, you can get your mobile phone and your long distance all on the one bill. So that's - and we have reward schemes and all that sorts of marketing things. But on business to business, it's a tough market, very tough market which is why our direct sales force has declined. But we knock on the door and we will offer you good service.
PN3445
So from my point of view as a mobile phone, because I have traipsed through the various outlets, it is simply that there is a whole lot of outlets so I might see the first one, face to face?---Face to face.
PN3446
Face to face, yes and that you can offer two different mobile carriers, Optus and Vodafone, there is no cost discounting or anything like that in your package?---Well on the Optus side we have our own rating, our own rating so they are our own rates, we can tailor them to what we perceive the market desires. But on Vodafone, I believe we are restricted to re-badging the same product and in point of fact the bills have Vodafone on it as well as RSL.
PN3447
I see so the bills you share with Vodafone have RSL?---But not Optus.
PN3448
Yes, with Optus you restructure - - -?---We buy wholesale and we sell retail and how much margin we make is up to us.
PN3449
I see and you are able to do the join rates depending on what margin you are striving for?---Yes.
PN3450
That is sort of more impressive from my point of view. And so you describe your - you say - I am just trying to get - you have got a series of functions where - at paragraph 3 you say RSLcom is engaged in and then you start a whole - involved in central billing, customer care and product development, is that the main focus of your business. What would you say - - -?---Well I think it's very easy to distinguish us from others because we're not into the infrastructure. We don't have a spectrum, we don't have cables, we are not laying fibre and the rest of it, we care about the customer, that is how we try to differentiate ourselves.
PN3451
So your primary function is caring about a customer?---Getting a bill out on time, accurately.
PN3452
Right, so getting the bill - is this the single billing service or something else?---Well only that's part of it for Digiplus, but any bill we attempt to get out on time and accurate.
PN3453
So this is the bills that you - - -?---Not all our bills are aggregated unfortunately.
PN3454
Right these are the bills of your fixed - mobile and fixed line?---At the moment for different billing system in St Leonards.
PN3455
So is DigiPlus in St Leonards?---No, it's at Maroubra.
PN3456
I see so are they on separate systems in your network for example when you go - - -?---No, they're different billing systems. I mean I don't know how much you want me to go into that. In terms of the call detail records or CDRs that flow from the networks, DigiPlus is only Optus. So it flows from Optus through us to Maroubra.
PN3457
And the other is both Optus and Vodafone?---In St Leonards is Optus or Vodafone, yes.
PN3458
Could you tell me, we have got - we had before I inquired about your other offices, you said at paragraph 6 that you have five employees engaged as sales representatives which I presume you meant in New South Wales, is that correct?---Yes.
PN3459
You now have four in Melbourne is that correct?---That's approximately correct, I don't - - -
PN3460
Fixed wire - - -?---Well one's a - one is the head of the office as well, so that's quite a separate position.
PN3461
And in Brisbane you have four involved in sales?---Well, one is a dealer/account manager so, on the mobile side.
PN3462
So three?---And three are the fixed wire side.
PN3463
In relation to the sales people, in answer to Mr Parry, you said, although it's not set out in your statement, that those sales representatives in New South Wales were covered by - what was the award again?---I referred to it as the Commercial Travellers Award but I don't know the legal title to it.
PN3464
Have you seen it?---Have I seen it? No, I haven't seen it but I employ experienced payroll people who would have it I feel sure. There is certainly no evidence.
PN3465
Do you know that they have it?---Well, I certainly know that they are aware of its primary terms and conditions and they extensively use Australian Business - the old Chamber of Commerce - for any particular issues.
PN3466
How do you know that they use it - extensively use it?---Well, because I guess early last year I employed - wanted to offer something - a position to someone and I asked them what their salary expectation was. This was a little different because it was a very junior new position and they said what they wanted. I then rang payroll and asked what is the award and they rang me back and said X and I paid more.
PN3467
So, you said it was a junior - I'm starting with New South Wales at the moment. You said it was a junior new position?---Mm.
PN3468
There were existing positions before this one that you took on early last year - positions of sales representatives I should say?---I'm sorry. I mean, that's an example of them using the awards.
PN3469
What about the others then?---That position was not - I don't employ sales representatives. I'm more the back office - finance side, so I have never engaged in a contract for - offered a contract to a sales person. But I am - run the department and I get lists and I have seen the name, commercial travellers, for - on lists of people as to - you know, applicable awards.
PN3470
What lists are these? What do you mean by lists and applicable awards? How are they set out?---Well, we would - I have asked to see what - how people are - what covers them. We've primarily got contractual obligations. We give everyone a contract but I'm aware of what we use to - on what these contracts are based.
PN3471
So the contract that you give them sets out their wages and conditions, does it?---It does.
PN3472
And when you - when they are employed do you advise them that they fall within - they're covered by - is that what you said "covered" or "governed"?---I believe that we exceed those requirements but I believe that we're aware, just the same as we're aware of the requirements of the Privacy Act, the Occupational Health and Safety WorkCover requirements. I guess that's the point I'm trying to say. I don't know the detail of any one of those acts but I do know that I expect and I - my staff look into the legal requirements of which we've got to comply and I consider those awards to be legal requirements of which we've got to comply.
PN3473
And when you employ the sales reps by contract do you advise them as to the award that applies?---I do not believe that any reference is in our contracts to particular awards.
PN3474
What about the sale people in Brisbane and Melbourne, what - you refer to the award in relation to New South Wales. What do you say about Melbourne and Brisbane?---Well, I am aware that we check with Australian Business when there is an employment issue in a different state.
PN3475
Now, the technical network operators, I think you said they were 10, is that right, who go into the switches and do those various - - -?---No, I said that some of them would be classified as the 10 analyst programmers in 13 but there would be quite senior executives.
PN3476
So, with the network, can you break it down a bit more for me because I keep - obviously, confining it down. I don't want to keep doing that. How many network operators would there be? Can you give a precise number - involved in the function of ensuring the efficient flow?---I would think that there would be five or six employees at North Ryde charged with the responsibility of our network.
PN3477
Are they covered by an award?---I don't believe they're covered by award but if it was it would be, in my opinion, the clerical one, but I don't believe they are.
PN3478
The clerical one would cover these people who are perform this function?---But I don't believe - I'm not closer enough to the awards.
PN3479
In 13, you said that the 10 employees hold tertiary qualifications in information technology and related subjects. Is that diplomas or - can you be more precise about that?---No, I can't be specific but I - these are - some of these individuals would be on six digit salaries so I would expect them to be trained. Not only do we have the individual we've been talking about but we have people that keep our billing system going.
PN3480
Which is your general billing system or the DigiPlus one?---Well, someone has got to keep the DigiPlus going as well, but in point of fact, there is one individual who does most of that work who is the financial controller who has a great interest in billing systems.
PN3481
You mentioned that if there is a network problem and with Vodafone you simply - this is in relation, sorry, to the call centre functions and what they do when there is a fault?---Sure.
PN3482
The customer rings up with a fault. You mentioned that you simply ring up Vodafone and say they need - - - ?---I think our bills actually have a separate phone number which is straight to Vodafone for technical issues.
PN3483
So you don't take any - if someone rang you up, it doesn't concern you?---It says it doesn't work in Brisbane. "I'm sorry, sir, we'll transfer you perhaps. I don't know whether we can do that, or please ring Vodafone directly on this number".
PN3484
Right and that's it?---I'd like to think we can address it.
PN3485
As far as you're concerned?---Yes, we do not pretend that we are supplying the network services. You're definitely signing up with Optus or Vodafone. Well, I mean we give you the bill, but that - we don't - we don't pretend we have a mobile network coverage. We are resellers.
PN3486
I see. So you specialise in customer care?---Yes, we will get a bill out to them.
PN3487
In what sense then. I'm just - as a customer, if someone said, "Well that's too bad, you'll have to ring Vodafone", I'm not sure that I'd be that happy, but I am just wondering what the customer care - - -?---Well as I - - -
PN3488
If you distinguish yourself?---Well, I - I think, the fact that we get our bills out on time and - and accurately is what we attempt to do, and - and, you know, that's - I mean personally, I think it's a bit of a commodity service. I mean, certainly in the major cities - I'm not sure I could tell you whether an Optus or Vodafone or a Telstra mobile phone network, was better than another - so - - -
PN3489
Is still accuracy, a key issue in the telecommunications industry, if you distinguish yourself from that. Are there - are you aware that the resellers and carriers regularly have an accurate billing?---I'm - I believe there was some press speculations about one of our competitors being able to bill, yes. And I believe that there has been a collapse of the company recently, who had trouble dealing their bills out.
PN3490
So, how does the repackaging - you mentioned you repackaged. How does that work?---On - on Optus?
PN3491
Yes?---We - we have a wholesale agreement that gives us the opportunity to - we buy - basically you are buying two things. You're buying access fees, a monthly charge and you - and you're buying call usage fees and we can package - we can package a variety of that. We can up or down the - the access fee component and the price per call - off peak/peak and if you then talk to a handset provider - we don't manufacture handsets or - or whatever, but we could sometimes tie a deal into a handset as well.and they're loosely called "free handset" but I don't think anyone in this room really believes a handset for free. They recover the costs over the access fees.
PN3492
They certainly do. Unfortunately, I've got myself into a contract. So, as a customer, the attraction is the - - - ?---You can get a nice phone at a higher rate or you can get a cheap phone at a low rate, whatever.
PN3493
- - - yes, right and it's in the setting of the access fees and the call usage fees you can provide different rates because you - I presume because you purchase bulk wholesale?---Absolutely, absolutely.
PN3494
And use that to your advantage?---Yes.
PN3495
I have no further questions.
PN3496
THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Bennett?
PN3497
MS BENNETT: No questions.
PN3498
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Parry?
PN3499
MR PARRY: I have no questions of Mr Russell, Commissioner. Might he be excused?
PN3500
PN3501
THE COMMISSIONER: Now, there was some discussion - well, before I do that I have been handed late breaking news. I have a letter from Mr Jeffari, the Executive Director of the Department of State and Regional Development, Industrial Relations, Victoria who writes to me and says:
PN3502
We write to advise that the interests of the Victorian Government in the above case which we believe is presently before the Australian Industrial Relations Commission. We've just become aware of the matters raised which the Victorian Government potentially may have an interest in. We wish to foreshadow our interest in seeking leave to intervene in the event that submissions are put to the Commission that the Victorian minimum wage orders are State awards for the purpose of section 111AAA. It would be appreciated if this matter could be considered as a matter of urgency.
PN3503
So, there it is. I suppose, at some stage, I will put the question whether or not that is the submission that is going to be made. Has there been any discussion at lunch time about the future conduct of the matter?
PN3504
MR PARRY: Perhaps, before we get onto programming, that's the completion of the oral evidence that we seek to call. There are some other documents in matters that I'd like to deal with before we get onto further programming.
PN3505
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN3506
MR PARRY: Firstly, there is the South Australian Clerks Award that I'd like to hand copies up of. I'd also like to hand up copies of the South Australian Commercial Travellers Award and the Tasmanian Industrial Wholesale Travellers Award.
PN3507
THE COMMISSIONER: We will include that in P4, will we?
PN3508
MR PARRY: Yes, if the Commission pleases. Commissioner, whilst they are being distributed, there has been a witness statement filed on behalf of - - -
PN3509
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Hanley.
PN3510
MR PARRY: - - - yes. Now, we obtained a signed copy of that but it is not in sworn form. I've had a discussion with Ms Jones about it and as I understand what she says, she doesn't require it to be in a sworn form but she doesn't require to cross-examine - - -
PN3511
THE COMMISSIONER: Doesn't require?
PN3512
MR PARRY: - - - doesn't require the cross-examination of Mr Hanley.
PN3513
PN3514
MR PARRY: There is also a statement of Mr Amarasu of AT&T.
PN3515
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN3516
MR PARRY: Now, there was a statement filed. I have obtained a statement from Mr Amarasu which he has signed which I've provided to Ms Jones which has some slight variations. Again, she doesn't require, as I understand it, for cross-examination Mr Amarasu. Now, I'm just - having explained all that, of course I can't find a copy of it just as I stand here but what I would want to do is reply on that in the same way and I will provide a copy for the Commission, hopefully very shortly.
PN3517
There is also a statement of Mr Peter Cook of Clariti Telecommunications and the same position applies. That is, I'm instructed that he has signed that that statement of Clariti and, again the same position prevails but I would want to provide to the Commission a signed copy. If I could hand up the copy of Mr Amarasu signed statement in respect of AT&T and if that could replace the one the Commission has?
PN3518
PN3519
MR PARRY: Commissioner, perhaps if I could make this application in respect of Clariti; that the document that's been filed be marked on the basis that I put forward. When the signed copy arrives, I'll provide that to the Commission and, obviously to Ms Jones. Obviously, if there is any variation and that's a matter that Ms Jones will certainly have the right to make submissions about or comment on or make applications in respect of it.
PN3520
PN3521
MR PARRY: If the Commission pleases. Now, the only other evidence and I call it evidence that I would want to place before the Commission are certain extracts from the rules and transcript that appears on the file of the precursors to the PREIA which is the file kept in the Registry in Melbourne of the Commission. Now, that file has been brought - whilst we were pursuing it in Melbourne, it was brought to Sydney and we pursued it in Sydney. I think it's been brought up here by interests probably involved in this case.
PN3522
What has happened, very broadly and obviously it's a matter for submission is that the original rule for the PREIA in 1916 was what we will say was a broad rule. It then went through amendments. Inserted in there was reference to radio very early on and in about 1947/'48/'49 there were amendments made which inserted reference to cable and within that time, there were certain submissions made and material relied on. Now, I want to put that material before the Commission.
PN3523
That is all leading up to telling you I don't have it, Commissioner but I would hope and obviously we're going to go into conference shortly about further programming of these matters but I would hope that if the position is that there are written material to be put in and that's obviously a matter the Commission will need to make a decision on, we would want to add that material and rely on it and ultimately tender it.
PN3524
So, I am foreshadowing that there will be other material in respect of rules that I cannot tender at the moment. Subject to that material, that's our evidentiary case, if the Commission pleases.
PN3525
THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Jones, do you have any other evidence in light of the material that's been led from Mr Parry's witness about section 111AAA?
PN3526
MS JONES: Any other evidence?
PN3527
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN3528
MS JONES: Well, as I indicated we intend to cross-examination their witnesses, obviously, on section 111AAA and maybe this is something we need to talk about in conference but as I understood it, we had reached a position where you would form a view as to an industrial dispute and then we were submitting that we reserved our right to put the evidence as to public interest which is then our responsibility under that section at that point.
PN3529
THE COMMISSIONER: Very well.
PN3530
MS JONES: So, the answer in short, no we haven't put it yet but we certainly do intend to where it gets to the point where by virtue of the operation of that section, we are required to address the public interest.
PN3531
THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. Well, if it's convenient, we adjourned into conference?
PN3532
MS JONES: Just before you do, we do have one more - we have some documentary material that is just an extract, not just but it's an extract from a book prepared by the Communications Law Centre on regulation in the industry and it deals with the changes that occurred from 1991 to 1997 which, as you are aware, are part of our outline submissions and we would like to tender that simply to provide the factual basis. It's an extract from the book, chapter 2 called Industry Structure and Regulation.
PN3533
PN3534
THE COMMISSIONER: Very well, we will adjourn into conference to discuss future programming.
OFF THE RECORD [3.08pm]
RESUMED [3.29pm]
PN3535
MR PARRY: If the Commission pleases, I have tendered exhibit P17 which is from Peter Samuel Cook from Clariti Telecommunications. During the break, I've been provided with a sworn document by Mr Cook which is in the same form.
PN3536
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
PN3537
MR PARRY: Perhaps, if I could uplift exhibit P17 and substitute this document?
PN3538
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN3539
MR PARRY: I indicate by my quick reading of it, it's precisely the same, if the Commission pleases.
PN3540
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Now, during the conference with the parties I determined the following procedure:
PN3541
The CPSU will lodge and serve on the other parties its submissions by the week ending 30 March.
PN3542
The CEPU and the ASU will lodge and serve any submissions they wish to make no later than 5 April.
PN3543
The employer respondents will lodge and serve any submissions they wish to make in response to those matters no later than 18 April.
PN3544
The matters will be listed for any further oral submissions that may be necessary on 7th and 8 May and during the conference the CPSU pressed an earlier submission that they have made that for those persons who haven't objected to the finding of dispute or haven't appeared to actively contest the finding - it's their submission that the Commission is not inhibited from making a finding of dispute in relation to those matters. Now, there was a decision that you wanted to refer to, was there, Ms Jones?
PN3545
MS JONES: Yes. Actually, it's on transcript and it was a recent proceedings in which, in fact, the AIG were doing a similar thing - it was a labour hire industry. There were numerous employers logged and it was something - it was a matter handled by Senior Deputy President Harrison in C No 24167 of 2000 and as I've said, there were employers who did not object and those who did represented by the AIG.
PN3546
Deputy President Harrison said that she had the necessary material before she was satisfied on authorisation and service and on the basis of the non objection, she would proceed to find a dispute in relation to the non objectors and those who didn't turn up at the proceedings and then proceed to deal with the issues raised by the AIG which did include coverage.
PN3547
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Very well, just so that I, in considering that application, would be pleased if you could confirm with my associate at an appropriate time the relevant list. There are a number of lists - I just want to make sure I get the right one that I'm considering.
PN3548
MS JONES: Yes, I will.
PN3549
THE COMMISSIONER: I will adjourn the matter until 7th and 8 May in Melbourne.
ADJOURNED UNTIL MONDAY, 7 MAY 2001 [3.33pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
GREGORY JOHN BOURKE, SWORN PN2894
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR PARRY PN2894
EXHIBIT #T11 VARIOUS DOCUMENTS REFERRED TO IN STATEMENT OF G. J. BOURKE PN2944
EXHIBIT #P12 STATE EMPLOYMENT AGREEMENT PN2974
EXHIBIT #P10 STATEMENT OF MR BOURKE PN2992
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS JONES PN2994
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BENFELD PN3164
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BENNETT PN3189
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PARRY PN3204
WITNESS WITHDREW PN3216
JOHN CLAUDE SIMON, SWORN PN3226
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR PARRY PN3226
EXHIBIT #P13 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MR SIMON PN3265
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BENFIELD PN3324
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BENNETT PN3336
WITNESS WITHDREW PN3348
KARLTON KEITH RUSSETT, SWORN PN3355
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR PARRY PN3355
EXHIBIT #P14 STATEMENT OF ADRIAN JOHN COOTE PN3387
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS JONES PN3400
WITNESS WITHDREW PN3501
EXHIBIT #P15 STATEMENT OF MR HANLEY PN3514
EXHIBIT #P16 STATEMENT BY MR AMARASU PN3519
EXHIBIT #P17 CLARITI DOCUMENT PN3521
EXHIBIT #J7 EXTRACT FROM BOOK CHAPTER 2 INDUSTRY STRUCTURE AND REGULATION PN3534
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