C2001/1565, Transcript of Proceedings [2001] AIRCTrans 545 (10 April 2001)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

O/N 6556
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER BLAIR

C2001/1565

AUSTRALIAN POSTAL CORPORATION

AND

COMMUNICATIONS, ELECTRICAL, ELECTRONIC,
ENERGY, INFORMATION, POSTAL, PLUMBING
AND ALLIED SERVICES UNION OF AUSTRALIA
(COMMUNICATIONS DIVISION) VICTORIAN
POSTAL AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS

NOTIFICATION PURSUANT TO SECTION 99
OF THE ACT OF A DISPUTE RE THREAT
OF STOPPAGE AT CRANBOURNE DELIVERY
CENTRE

MELBOURNE

3.16 PM, MONDAY, 26 MARCH 2001

PN1

MR T. BUTLER: I appear in this matter on behalf of the Australian Postal Corporation. Appearing with me today is MR P. BASS and MR T. WALTERS and MR J. O'CALLAGHAN.

PN2

MR K. MOORE: I appear along with MR Z. SUBACIUS on behalf of the CEPU.

PN3

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Moore. Mr Butler.

PN4

MR BUTLER: Commissioner, today's wildcat strike at Cranbourne Delivery Centre has resulted in a considerable amount of mail being delayed to our customers and additional costs incurred. Since I first advised the Commissioner that it was likely to occur, our worst fears have actually happened, those - joining the staff, some 19 staff walked out this morning.

PN5

The first time Australia Post became aware of the possibility of industrial action at the Cranbourne Delivery Centre was at approximately 5 am this morning when the management became aware of the note that was on a number of PDOs desks. The note has since been faxed off to the Commissioner attached to the actual application. Messages were left for Mr Moore to contact the Area Manager, Mr Walters, this morning.

PN6

As Mr Moore told him on Friday that he would be visiting the facility. Mr Moore did not return any call. We can prove that that call was made. In addition to this, a letter from Mr Bass was faxed to the State Secretary, Mr Brown, this morning well before 9 am asking whether the CEPU authorised the stoppage. The letter also stated that Mr Bass was willing to meet with Mr Brown to discuss these matters.

PN7

To further support that, a phone call was also made this morning just prior to the stoppage by Mr Ousley who is now the Southern Operations Manager to Mr Brown and Mr Gareth - the State Secretary. Both Mr Brown in further conversations with Mr Gatto indicated that both of those gentlemen were unaware what was occurring at Cranbourne. They denied any knowledge of any industrial situation or any meeting.

PN8

Mr Moore did not, in fact, turn up as he advised on Friday, but instead Mr Subacius who we have had no discussions with regarding Cranbourne in any sort of way, turned up. But instead of raising any issues with the Cranbourne Manager, he simply conducted a meeting of staff at approximately 9 am. At this stage we are not sure as to whether this stoppage is confined to today or even the Cranbourne Delivery Centre. I make this comment on the basis that the union has rung around a number of delivery centres, including Seaford, Mornington, Heidelberg West and Dandenong.

PN9

Now, later on the union will probably say to us that we don't consult and so on. Well, I can assure you, Commissioner, there have been a number of letters certainly regarding Cranbourne in recent times that I will now forward to you as an exhibit regarding certain situations which I will now cover. You will note, Commissioner, that some of the issues at Cranbourne actually go back a couple of weeks. The letter to Mr Brown of a couple of weeks ago actually very clearly states what the background is, but for your convenience, Commissioner, I think it might be wise to - for me to read out some of the key points.

PN10

On the morning of 16 March 2001 the Cranbourne Group of the Cranbourne Delivery Centre were advised that a divide might be necessary due to three employees being absent. At approximately at 8.30 am that morning the stop steward Brett Crawford who is here today approached the Delivery Centre Manager who stated the group would only work overtime and delivery the divide if they were paid a meal allowance and paid for a divide. A meal allowance must be worked for one hour before it is paid. A divide must include - 100 definite delivery points.

PN11

As neither payment was warranted and outside the award, this was refused. At 11.20 am Mr Crawford issued a CEPU dispute notification form stating that there was an issue over harassment of a group over perceived overtime and divide. Consequently, of the 12 delivery staff in the Cranbourne Group itself, seven refused to divide. Of the seven employees five did not complete all the delivery of the mail allocated to the round and two delivered their own round but did not work overtime as required to deliver the divide.

PN12

Their decision to not deliver mail in accordance with the work level standards unless a meal allowance and a divide was paid, even though it was not warranted, is considered a breach of the code of ethics. Mr Crawford is currently on a warning counselling. For that reason he will be advised that there will be an inquiry into his action on 16 March 2001.

PN13

One other employee will also be advised he will be subject to inquiry as he is also on warning counselling. The other five employees were subject to warning counselling. I am concerned that Mr Crawford has just distributed a note to the Cranbourne Group stating that:

PN14

I have spoken to Ken Moore about the concerns within the group and it was decided if they decided to get them on a warning counselling the group has the option to walk off the site.

PN15

And it asked the union to indicate whether the union would be supporting the action. There is further correspondence there, Commissioner, to the union regarding Cranbourne. None of those have actually been answered by the union. What I was concerned - of further concern to us, Commissioner, is that following today's walkout we still have not been advised by the union that they have endorsed it, but the very fact that Mr Subacius was there I would take it it would mean that it was authorised - concerned that following that a note was actually found at the facility after the stoppage. I will now actually tender that document.

PN16

Commissioner, the document I gave you states - Cooper on the top PD delivery centre to Kylie Narre Warren and so on. This actually - this particular note there that is the handwriting of Mr Crawford, very clearly indicates that the meeting was pre-ordained and that it was pre-ordained that he would actually contact a number of other shop stewards at a number of other delivery centres.

PN17

It also states what Mr Moore has actually told him to say to the particular managers. It virtually said to tell them if anything happens to Cranbourne posties, similar action might be taken at each centre. That is an ongoing threat. It certainly indicates that how did he - how did Mr Crawford know that the industrial action was to occur - occurred because it was planned that way. At no stage did the union just go out - want to go in and have a meeting with their members to find out what was troubling them over at Cranbourne.

PN18

Now, the note that the Cranbourne shop steward actually distributed this morning and not the entire reason for the stoppage but a way of forcing Australia Post to not take warning counselling - or not take inquiry actions against a number of employees who refused to deliver the mail. Mr Crawford is one of those concerned. So we are talking about two employees at this stage.

PN19

Australia Post has actually responded to all dispute notices. Commissioner, there is a claim that there was excessive divides and overtime leading up to divides. It is simply not true. The shop steward tried to do a deal with management. I have got actually a printout what the actual overtime worked leading up to the 16th, proves immediately prior to it there was no divide necessary. The overtime range was a 30 minutes max. And a number of those prior to that there was no divides either.

PN20

Commissioner, since we last met and thankfully we have not met this year, but in a number of disputes that occurred last year and in correspondence that has taken place this year with the union, we have endeavoured to meet with the union on at least six occasions. Some of those occasions have been regarding our - simply for a JCC. Some of those meetings have been together with the national office to try and work out our relationships, if you like. On each occasion the union has actually cancelled those meetings. We have actually - - -

PN21

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Moore.

PN22

MR MOORE: I am sorry, Mr Commissioner, but I am - - -

PN23

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, you will have your chance in the matter.

PN24

MR MOORE: Thank you.

PN25

MR BUTLER: We have written to the union on a number of occasions to try and just discuss protocol arrangements for when they visit our facilities. Some of those, I think it would be worthwhile, Commissioner, to actually forward those exhibits or some of those letters to yourself that refers to previous hearings and is the outcome of - - -

PN26

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN27

MR BUTLER: - - - refers to previous hearings, refers to letters to the CEPU of 11 August 2000, 14 December 2000, 17 January 2001, 25 January 2001, 5 February 2001, 13 February 2001, and 5 March, regarding organised itineraries or protocols for the conducting of workplace visits by CEPU officials. Those letters, Commissioner, and the need to follow protocols actually came out from a hearing before this Commission regarding Lilydale and prior to then regarding other disputes within Victoria.

PN28

Commissioner, the reason why I actually talked about these sorts of things rather than just the Cranbourne things, is to demonstrate that Australia Post has endeavoured to meet with the union on a number of occasions, whether it is Joint Consultative Councils, whether it is to discuss protocol arrangements, access arrangements with Australia Post and the union has simply not answered those letters.

PN29

Instead, indeed, it has decided to go to its shop stewards to try and conjure up some industrial action. It doesn't return phone calls, doesn't in any sort of way write to us in response to any of those letters that we have written to the union and talk about what their concerns are about issues at Cranbourne. Instead, basically they have decided let's take some industrial action, let's show Australia Post that we will show what goes on. I just need to - I have just been reminded, Commissioner, that there is also some threatened action tomorrow at Seaford and Mornington if the inquiries that we intend to take place do, in fact, occur.

PN30

MR MOORE: Good.

PN31

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Moore.

PN32

MR MOORE: Thank you, Mr Commissioner. I am getting heartily sick of coming in here, Mr Commissioner, and hearing plain, unadulterated lies. Mr Butler has said that we were to have a meeting federally to air our differences with the mediator being the federal office of the union. That was to be with myself and Mr Stephen Ousley. Mr Ousley begged out of that meeting, not Ken Moore. Mr Ousley did. Yet Mr Butler had the temerity to stand here, sir, and give you what he deems as the truth. That is not the truth and I will be happy to bring along the Federal Secretary to correct that statement.

PN33

As far as the JCC goes, if Mr Butler wants to tell the truth, we rang last year asking when we were going to have one. I mentioned it in passing in a phone conversation. Like, when was the last time we had a JCC? And he said, oh, well, we'll organise one for next week or something, drop everything, we've now decided you're going to have one, boot in here and have one. I am heartily sick of this. Dead set. Every time he gets up here it is a package full of lies.

PN34

As far as Cranbourne goes, well, I thought that was what we were here about, not all the other rubbish. As far as Cranbourne goes, Mr Commissioner, it is a microcosm of the rest of suburban Victoria, and if you think I needed to go around and drum up a dispute, then you are sadly mistaken, Australia Post. And that is the problem: they are very sadly mistaken. They had better get on their bike, start looking at what they're doing, because there is no problems in any other business unit in Australia Post. None. Currently.

PN35

Yet all of a sudden we have - I think, Mr Commissioner, you will recall we had a problem with code of conducts before and you said that we should go away and discuss how these should work. Mr Commissioner, we have not had that - we haven't followed that direction. Isn't that amazing? I bet you they did not tell you that. We haven't done that. This all stems from that sort of misuse of this place and the code of conduct. Yes, it is true that the troops are upset about the way code of conduct is used at Cranbourne and a number of other offices.

PN36

Do you think that the boys at Seaford and the boys and girls at Seaford want to go on strike tomorrow, they want to lose a day's wages? I don't think so. Do you think the people at Heidelberg West want to do it? I didn't even know they were interested. The people at St Albans, and I didn't know they were interested, and everywhere else. I am saying to you, Mr Commissioner, look, there is a problem in Australia Post, a dead set, fair dinkum, bad problem.

PN37

All they want to do is bring the union along here and kick the living Christ out of it - pardon the French - and then say, well, see, we were right. And the members, the people that work for them, the people that are not members, are getting totally sick and tired of this whole process. Mr Commissioner, I have got - Brett Crawford is a fairly smart young chap and keeps a diary. It is far too voluminous for me to read out every page for you, and there are countless of other pages that I could quite easily pull out of his diary.

PN38

I spoke to Mr Bass on about the 16th or 17th of this month about the problems at Cranbourne, about the problems at Cranbourne because Brett put in an avoidance of dispute. He put it in, saying there are problems at Cranbourne with the way things are done, the way they - PRA are not paid, that is the extra money you get for doing a divide if you do 100 points. It is funny at Cranbourne, you only do about 90 some days. Isn't that strange?

PN39

And every time it looks like there is going to be a meal allowance needed to be paid the part-timers end up actually taking mail off the full-timers and they don't get the meal allowance, because the part-timers cost less to actually deliver the mail because they don't get paid overtime. In our discussions this morning, and again Mr Butler got it wrong. Mr Subacius was there with me this morning. I did not rate a mention. I did not rate a mention. So why don't they get their facts right.

PN40

The other point I wanted to make, Mr Commissioner, is look, the part-timers out there are sick and tired of being told when they are employed that they work five hours a day with maybe a little bit of extra time. Most of the part-timers - and I spoke to them this morning - are sick to death of working six and 10 hours a day. They are rostered for five. They are rostered for five. Mr Daunt sitting next to Brett has a man who has a problem. He has got different medical conditions, which I don't intend to go into here, and he actually did the right thing, went to work one day and said, look, I've - I need to go to the doctor, I've made it for after my rostered time off. I've made it for after my rostered time off.

PN41

The response from the manager was, well, look, if you're going to do those sorts of things, you better make sure you get in here an hour or so earlier, so that you can make your appointment if - and I've actually got the written response here, Mr Commissioner, if you want to see it. I have not got copies because I only just got it, which goes to some length to say:

PN42

I informed him if he had needed to finish at rostered hours then he would need to start earlier so that he could complete all of his duties.

PN43

My reading of this statement was that if staff members needed to get to an appointment that I was prepared to assist him as much as possible, dependent on staffing and mail volumes on the day. Now, here is a chap, just one example, who has gone and made an appointment with his professional, a medical professional, they're not easy to get into, and he has done the right thing, he has gone to work and said, I'm prepared to work my rostered hours, I've made my appointment for after my rostered time. And then he is told, well, look, that's not good enough, you're going to have to start, you know, whatever time we think to get the mail done.

PN44

Now, as I said to you, Mr Commissioner, there is a real problem out there, a real problem. I said that to Mr Bass. I told him what the problem was. He agreed with me on the phone that, yes, he had some problems with some of the things that were in the avoidance of dispute and there would be an investigation. Well, Mr Commissioner, if there is going to be an investigation, then there has got to be a result to that investigation. I haven't heard the result.

PN45

All I have heard is that my shop steward is about to be slung over leg for six, probably get the khyber and the assistant shop steward also probably get the khyber and a number of other people who stood by their elected - their representative - are also going to be poked in the eye by a system we were supposed to review. You directed us to go away and talk about it. We haven't done that, not because I did not want to, not because I did not want to, but it is awfully hard to have a discussion in an empty room.

PN46

So look, Mr Commissioner, I am more than happy to sit down and discuss any issue at Cranbourne and anywhere else because there are a whole lot of them. I don't have to ring members up and say, what's going on. As it is now, every delivery centre in Victoria, in suburban Melbourne anyway in the northern, south-eastern and eastern parts of suburbia now has nobody in charge of them. So God forbid if a postie gets run over, killed, squashed by a tram, who do they ring? Well, it's probably that tell someone who cares, because there is nobody in the office, they are all out delivering mail at Cranbourne, all of them.

PN47

Mr Commissioner, our point of view is, look, fairly simple. I think I would be more than happy to sit down and discuss at length as long as that takes, sit down and discuss under your chairmanship or the Commission's chairmanship, a resolution to all these problems, get everything back on track and I will not have to stand up here getting continually pee-ed off by the amount of rubbish the pours across the table purporting to be fact and you will not have to sit there and listen to it, and we can both get on with our lives and do something constructive.

PN48

And well, of course, obviously it would go without saying that we would need to have a look at the timescale and who were on these working parties, but that would be our - look, I don't wish to continue to have blues. And let me tell you, Mr Commissioner, it would be very easy for me, very, very easy for me, I could fall out of a tree and get somewhere to walk at the moment. They don't realise that. They don't realise it. I think they are still on the yellow brick road. So I am serious, Mr Commissioner, it would not be difficult for this to escalate into something that nobody wants.

PN49

And I say that advisedly, it is not a threat, I am just telling you of the real world, and I am sure, Mr Commissioner, you have been around long enough to know it. As I said, our offer is quite simple. We would be more than happy to sit down and discuss under your chairmanship, under your directions all the problems we have. And they are numerous and not the least of them would be the use of code of conduct, and as I have said to you in the past, delivery, business units uses three times the amount of code of conduct than any other business unit. I could go on and tell you some horrendous stories, Mr Commissioner, I am sure if you give me the time I can do it, but I mean, that is up to you. But with that I am at your disposal, sir.

PN50

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Moore, can I just ask a couple of questions. If things were so bad at Cranbourne why wasn't the matter brought before the Commission?

PN51

MR MOORE: Mr Commissioner, I rang Mr Bass, as I said, and I think you have told us before that we should - and I have taken on board what you said before - that we should try and fix these problems before we get them to here, and when I did that Mr Bass agreed with me that there were certain problems, he had seen certain problems, that is why he instigated an investigation. And I am not aware of the results. All I know is my shop steward and assistant shop steward they are both on the road to 'don't come Monday'.

PN52

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. But why wasn't a dispute notified to the Commission rather than Cranbourne workers walk of the job?

PN53

MR MOORE: Well, on Friday, Mr Commissioner, I made it plain to all those that listened, made it absolutely plain to the Operations Manager Victoria, Mr Dunphy, that there was a problem at Cranbourne, what was going to be the outcome, and Mr Dunphy on his mobile phone, it was, some time after 4, I unfortunately, Mr Commissioner, I was sick last week, all week, and his response was, yes, that's right, there will be a few of them on warning counselling and they are going do an inquiry on the shop stewards.

PN54

That was it. There was no: do you want to sit down and talk about it. We've got the right to manage. We've got the right to manage. Well, that is what we have got and that is the way they work things out now. We don't have any rights. People there, employees, don't have any rights. We can yell and scream, get directions from the Commissioner about codes of conduct, and they just walk away and say, oh, well, stiff cheddar, stiff cheddar.

PN55

As far as - just another thing, Mr Commissioner, as far as my being rung several times - I got one phone call this morning, 5.54, 5.54 from Mr Walters which said, I'm returning your call from Friday. Is that right, Terry? Or do you want to hear it? Is that right or not?

PN56

THE COMMISSIONER: But that - - -

PN57

MR BUTLER: What? That, or everything else you said.

PN58

MR MOORE: No, that bit about the messages.

PN59

THE COMMISSIONER: Hang on, just a minute.

PN60

MR MOORE: Yes. That is the only message I have received all day, Mr Commissioner, I take exception to people saying I hung out or trying to paint me blacker than I really am. I'm a bit of a black sheep, but I ain't that black.

PN61

THE COMMISSIONER: But the question - I understand your frustrations, Mr Moore, but the question is, why didn't the CEPU notify of a dispute notification for an urgent listing, rather than their members walk off the job?

PN62

MR MOORE: Well, Mr Commissioner, as I said to you on Friday, it was late Friday, it was 4.30, I was still at home sick. I to be honest with you, Mr Commissioner, I have no answer to that. But I think you hit the nail on the head when you said you understand our frustration. Well, let me tell you, Mr Commissioner, that is not just my frustration or Mr Subacius. It is now the membership and the non-members alike.

PN63

THE COMMISSIONER: Is there any further action planned at Cranbourne?

PN64

MR MOORE: No, there is no action planned at Cranbourne, Mr Commissioner. We were hoping that you would today accept our offer, and that is we are prepared to sit down and discuss the matter. I can tell you that the members out there are exceedingly disappointed with the way Australia Post has treated them, but that is besides the inquiries and everything else, this is the rank and file, the ones that are not ready to get chucked off a great big building and their life ended, the rest of them are.

PN65

THE COMMISSIONER: In one of the letters addressed to Mr Brown - - -

PN66

MR MOORE: Yes.

PN67

THE COMMISSIONER: Victorian Branch Secretary - - -

PN68

MR MOORE: Yes.

PN69

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - it refers to a difficulty on 16 March regarding three employees being absent.

PN70

MR MOORE: Yes.

PN71

THE COMMISSIONER: And it makes the assertion that the shop steward Brett Crawford approached the manager and stated that the group would only work overtime and deliver the divide if they were paid meal allowance and paid for the divide. Now - and then it states:

PN72

As neither payment was warranted and outside of the award, this was refused.

PN73

Was that a claim?

PN74

MR MOORE: No. Well, what do you say claim, Mr Commissioner, as I understand it Brett went forward to the manager and said, look, we've worked a fair bit of overtime this week - as I understand it, maybe Brett can elucidate better than I can - but as I understand it, he went forward and said, look, we're going to do the divide and I think it was, how many points, Brett?

PN75

MR CRAWFORD: They made sure it was under 100 points so that PRA would not have to be paid.

PN76

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN77

MR MOORE: And everyone was told, you will work the overtime. There is no would you like to: you will work the overtime and that's it, and I don't care whether you've got to pick your kids up, I don't care you've got to run somebody over, I don't care if you've got to go to the doctor, you'll do as you're told. If you don't, you will be on code of conduct. Clear. So Brett said, well, look, why don't we stop cutting the hassle, why don't we just go and, look, we'll do it if you do this. And that was a simple bargaining chip and it has been going on since Adam was a pup and Australia Post said, well, there's a perfect example now, let's grab and sling them over the leg.

[3.42pm]

PN78

MR BASS: Commissioner, I would like on behalf of Australia Post to highlight a few points in regard to Ken's statement. In fact, the dispute started on 16 March and, yes, Ken and I did have a conversation, though I believe I rang him at that stage. We had an ensuing discussion and I believe the agreement was that I would investigate what had occurred on that day and I thought that was a reasonable assumption, but part of the agreement was that we would individually talk to each staff and ascertain their reasons for the belief that they would not, I guess, follow through with what we required in regard to the divides and overtime.

PN79

Now, I felt at the end of that conversation we had an agreement on that. Subsequently, Monday morning, we actually arrived to find that no staff would then ensue in any discussion in regards to that. And that, we were led to believe, was on the advice of Ken and also Brett Crawford. So in fact we did - on Monday morning we gave the staff the opportunity to put over their reasons and any subsequent complaints they had in regards to the running of the delivery centre. We also did again, upon advice of a warning counselling, and that warning counselling was arranged later for the week.

PN80

So in fact they had three opportunities to actually to give over their, I guess, ideals and complaints in regards to how we were operating in the facility and such. So I thought that, you know, in regards to reasonableness we gave them the opportunity to portray the complaints that they had in regards to this issue. It is also important to remember that the actual industrial action - as you said they could have lodged a complaint with the Commission. This has now occurred a week after the actual incident so there has been - certainly been the opportunity for the CEPU to come back and actually advise their issues etcetera if Ken wished to afford any discussion in relation to it.

PN81

Look, we have also initiated - tried to initiate a JCC. we have sent a letter on 7 march which I - I only have one copy - in regards to setting up a JCC and we have had numerous attempts at this. That was the last letter that went and so far we have had no response to that letter.

PN82

MR MOORE: I haven't seen it yet.

PN83

MR BUTLER: Commissioner, if I could just add a couple of further points on that basis that the union has virtually made allegations that I have told lies before this Commission. A couple of points, Commissioner, and certainly I don't come armed with every document that has ever been produced by Australia Post or tendered by the union - or sent to the unions. But certainly would be more than happy to actually produce any documents that I referred to today in the hearing. Australia Post in fact wrote to the union not that long ago stating that they should raise those matters that they felt concerned about where they felt they were abuses of the code of conduct.

PN84

The union did not respond to that. I have a copy of that with the transmission report back at my office, Commissioner. The other thing is that on the basis of part timers we actually at the interview we actually talk to part timers and ask them if it is okay if they want to work additional hours. Many of them agree and don't have a problem with it. We have certainly had no representations from - about part timers working additional hours that they felt unhappy about, not one at all. Certainly there is nothing wrong that we have been able to see. The manager has nothing in his notes at all.

PN85

JCCs - if necessary we can have Mr Ousley up here and put him in the witness box because we have certainly had the union, on each occasion, cancel those meetings. It was very clear that when the union went to Cranbourne this morning they didn't go there to talk to the members about what their needs are they went there with the intention of instructing their members to go out on strike. They inferred that in the first notification to their membership which was distributed around the floor this morning and it was also indicated in the paper that the shop steward consequently left at the facility.

PN86

As far as we are concerned there is a dispute resolution process. We are asking that that be honoured not a loose commitment made at the end of every hearing but be fair dinkum about it. We believe that we can more than justify and show that we have actually tried to meet with the union. We have got the paperwork that proves it, we have got transmission reports. We just don't get responses from the union. We just don't get it.

PN87

MR MOORE: You don't get responses. Good. I wrote to you on 31 January and got a response on 16 March.

PN88

MR BUTLER: Australia Post would certainly have no qualms in meeting with you on issues of concern that the union may raise. We have no problem with that at all.

PN89

THE COMMISSIONER: Who is on the JCC?

PN90

MR BUTLER: The State Manager of Delivery and myself and the Manager of Delivery Operations and from the union it is generally the three union organisers.

PN91

THE COMMISSIONER: So there is the State Manager, Delivery, yourself and who else?

PN92

MR BUTLER: Manager of Delivery Operations. And as the name refers, Commissioner, it is meant to be a consultative forum not simply a forum where agreement is reached but a consultative forum where items can be discussed.

PN93

THE COMMISSIONER: And the three organisers from the CEPU?

PN94

MR BUTLER: Yes.

PN95

THE COMMISSIONER: Right, thank you. All right. I will tell you what the Commission is going to do and these are directions and you will comply with them and heaven help anybody who does not. Firstly, there will be no further industrial action and you are directed not to take any. Secondly, on Tuesday 27 March, that is tomorrow, the JCC will meet and they will meet for approximately two hours and go through the issues that would normally be on a JCC agenda. And there will be excuse as to why people cannot attend that JCC meeting.

PN96

Thirdly, on 28 March the parties will meet for two hours and they will go through the protocols that were part of previous Commission hearings and recommendations and some of that is identified in a letter to Mr Tudehope dated 23 December 2000 and the parties will try to reach some understandings on the protocols referred to at the hearing of last year, 12 December I think it was. On 29 March the parties will meet, again for approximately two hours, and they will go through the issues surrounding the codes of conduct to try and get some understandings about the application concerning the codes of conduct.

PN97

And those codes of conduct that currently exist over a number of employees whether or not it is viable for those to remain over those employees or whether or not there is some alternative means rather than a code of conduct being implemented. And lastly, whilst all those discussions are occurring those employees, in this instance the Commission understands Mr Crawford - who has a code of conduct over him or may be subject to a code of conduct because of today's actions - and Mr Crawford should understand that the Commission does not condone the taking of industrial action.

PN98

The availability of the Commission has always been known to the parties to reconvene at short notice to deal with issues that are of concern but that code of conduct that may be impending over Mr Crawford because of today's actions shall not be instituted until such time as the parties report back to the Commission which will be on Tuesday, 3 April at 3.30 pm not am.

PN99

MR BUTLER: Commissioner, can I just clarify a couple of points.

PN100

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN101

MR BUTLER: First of all, there was not going to be a code of conduct actually regarding today's actions.

PN102

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that is fine.

PN103

MR BUTLER: What we are referring to - and there is going to be an inquiry actually on two persons - an inquiry is an investigation and that is basically what it is by an independent person. It is regarding the refusal to deliver certain mail a couple of weeks ago and bring back mail. And that is all it was. It was an inquiry inquiring as to what happened in as much recommendations.

PN104

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Well then, the Commission would suggest that the inquiry not occur until the report back to this Commission on the 3rd to allow an environment free of any potential conflict to deal with the code of conducts, overall code of conducts, the issues on JCC and the protocols. Now, that - the people should understand that at the end of the day if there is a process for an investigation then that shall occur and it shall occur in accordance with the procedures. But at this stage the Commission would suggest that not occur,it just may assist in inflaming things which the Commission is not about to do.

PN105

But in issuing the directions, and the Commission made it clear, there is to be no excuse as to why the dates and the times that have been set down shall not be complied with because if the Commission is advised that either one part has gone in and sat there for two minutes and then walked out then I will convene a compulsory conference and you will attend and you will sit there until you reach an agreement.

PN106

MR MOORE: Mr Commission, Mr Clark is in Sydney on another matter and won't be back until probably Wednesday.

PN107

THE COMMISSIONER: So who is Mr Clark?

PN108

MR MOORE: He is the other organiser.

PN109

THE COMMISSIONER: So, Wednesday being the 28th?

PN110

MR MOORE: Yes, he is back Wednesday.

PN111

THE COMMISSIONER: And he is part of the JCC?

PN112

MR MOORE: He has been, Mr Commissioner, but I could - - -

PN113

THE COMMISSIONER: So we will - - -

PN114

MR MOORE: We could sling somebody else in there or maybe the State Secretary. I will be happy if it was the State Secretary.

PN115

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. That is fine. Would you make clear to the State Secretary, which I understand is Mr Brown - - -

PN116

MR MOORE: That is correct, sir.

PN117

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - that he is to attend.

PN118

MR MOORE: Yes, sir.

PN119

THE COMMISSIONER: No excuses.

PN120

MR MOORE: Yes.

PN121

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Fine. Now, is everyone clear on what has been directed? Mr Moore?

PN122

MR MOORE: Yes, totally, Commissioner.

PN123

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Butler?

PN124

MR BUTLER: Yes, Commissioner.

PN125

THE COMMISSIONER: Right. If we are to reconvene on Tuesday the 3rd at 3.30 we will deal with issues that have not been resolved and be prepared to stay for a long time until we actually resolve them. Okay.

PN126

MR MOORE: Happy with that.

PN127

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. The Commission stands adjourned.

ADJOURNED UNTIL TUESDAY, 3 APRIL 2001 [3.52pm]