C0040/398, Transcript of Proceedings [2001] AIRCTrans 649 (18 April 2001)

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT

C No 00403 of 1998

APPLICATION FOR A REVIEW PURSUANT TO
ITEM 51 SCHEDULE 5 TRANSITIONAL WROLA
ACT 1996 OF THE DEFENCE FORCES SERVICES
CONSENT AWARD 1992 RE CONDITIONS OF
EMPLOYMENT

SYDNEY

10.00 AM, TUESDAY, 3 APRIL 2001

PN1

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good morning, could I have the appearances please.

PN2

MR N. SWANCOTT: I appear for the Australian Liquor, Hospitality and Miscellaneous Workers Union.

PN3

MR W. GOBERT: Good morning, your Honour. I appear for Spotless Nationwide.

PN4

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good morning, Mr Gobert. Mr Swancott, Mr Beard was here, I gather. Are you able to fill us in?

PN5

MR SWANCOTT: Yes. Mr Beard apologised. He's involved in another matter in the Commission involving the city's petrol supplies and for some reason thought that that might be a priority issue but will get here if he can later in the morning.

PN6

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Gentlemen, may I just set the scene and then ask you to report back? On 26 February we met in conference to review progress and to try to complete our item 51 review of this award and at that time it emerged that there were two substantive matters still needing resolution on which the parties were invited to make submissions. I issued orders on 2 March in relation to those two matters and all other matters and then, on 13 March, circulated a draft order in relation to all the other matters covered by the 51 review. We also amended the directions on that date in the light of a prospect that we may receive joint submissions on those two items.

PN7

Now, I note that in fact the submissions we've received are separate submissions from the LHMU and from the company. Nothing has come in from the AWU. Also the parties were invited to make submissions on any other matters apart from those two substantive items and to do so by 27 March. I note that we've received no other submissions apart from those on those two substantive matters. So in your report-back I would ask you whether you can confirm that there are no other items in need of attention.

PN8

The other item that's relevant here is that the President has now referred to me the section 113 applications by the LHMU for award variations on those two substantive matters that we're discussing in the item 51 review. So, against that background, I'm looking forward to your reports on progress and our current status so that we might decide today how to progress. Yes, Mr Swancott?

PN9

MR SWANCOTT: Yes, your Honour, I can confirm receipt of the Commission's final draft that followed our conference on 26 February. We've been through the draft and we have no difficulties with anything in the draft - other, of course, than the two matters that remain in dispute. So in theory, subject to the continuing discussion on those two substantive matters, we would have no objection to the document as forwarded being issued, either now or in due course and we can perhaps discuss that.

PN10

I do regret that, despite some quite detailed and lengthy negotiations between the company and my union, we were not in a position to put agreed submissions. My union actually regrets that we have reached an adversarial position in relation to those two substantive matters and would welcome the opportunity, if the Commission were so minded, to attempt conciliation today to narrow the differences; or perhaps, more appropriately, to explore alternative options which, in our view, may not have been properly explored by the parties one on one and may be assisted by, dare I use the phrase, third-party intervention.

PN11

The point I'm making is that it may be that there are things that can be said to the Commission that may assist in opening up alternative approaches that maybe haven't been able to be said in direct negotiation. While I don't speak for Mr Beard, my union hasn't been in regular contact with the AWU and I'm advised tha the AWU supports the position that we've been adopting to date in our written submissions, and at the appropriate time Mr Beard will confirm that on the transcript or in correspondence to the Commission.

PN12

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: He would be happy to be part of further conciliation?

PN13

MR SWANCOTT: Yes. That's my understanding. He would be happy to join in if he can arrive in time but he's also reluctantly happy for me to carry the banner for the workers involved in this matter. So, your Honour, I think that concludes the report-back from our perspective. As I say, we have no objections to the draft and we can proceed on that basis.

PN14

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Yes, Mr Gobert?

PN15

MR GOBERT: Yes, your Honour. The position of the company at this stage is that since our last meeting we have had several meetings with Mr Swancott, Mr Ferrari and Miss Schofield from the LHMU. Our position regarding the draft agreement we have before us is that again we also have no objections to any part of it other than the two substantive issues. Having examined it, we would be quite comfortable for that to move forward.

PN16

In terms of the two substantive issues, your Honour, I have had several meetings with Mr Ferrari, Mr Swancott and Miss Schofield. They've put to us some suggestions on a way we may be able to stage in the impact of any changes; the position being, as I said at the last meeting, that our initial estimations of the cost of full redundancy provisions and the pay rate increases put it in the vicinity of some $12 million. The point would be that we're one division of Spotless. Spotless's declared profit for the entire corporation last year was $20 million. The profit of our division is something like $7 million. So that puts it in perspective as to why it's being considered so very carefully by the company.

PN17

As Mr Swancott points out, I also regret tha we're in an adversarial position but the perspective of Spotless is that it's a very significant issue. It;'s probably the most significant issue that faces Spotless at present. We have met. I've done several calculations on the impact to try to soften the blow, to see where it would impact. My position at the moment is that I do need more time to make these calculations because it's a complicated company. We have people in various states on various levels; a lot of them are casual; they change across the levels frequently. So we do need more time.

PN18

The position put by Mr Swancott as to whether we may be able to gain some more by conciliation I would also support. I believe that could be valuable because at present I'm in the position of having to take the position we are. We've given you one submission already and our pay level submission will be with you this afternoon. So our position would be that if we could have more time to consider it, if we could come together and talk as well, that may be helpful.

PN19

So if I could sum up: we have no opposition to anything in the draft award. On the two substantive matters we believe there might be some benefit from conciliation and more time being built into the impact of those changes if we were to support them. Thank you,your Honour.

PN20

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, in view of what you've both said about it being worthwhile to spend some time in conciliation discussing various options, what I'm going to do, with your co-operation, is propose to separate those two substantive matters and deal with them separately. We'll move into conference and we'll talk about them.

PN21

Also in conference what i'd like to do is address some minor editorial changes that I note are still needed on the draft, from my examination of it yesterday - I picked up a few more typos and punctuation issues, etcetera. So there are a number of things which I'd like to discuss in conference.

PN22

Subject to us making the progress I expect there, then we would come back into hearing and what I'm looking towards is being able to make an order to simplify the rest of the award leaving those two matters as the substantive items for us to pursue. So, if we may, let's join in conference and make some progress.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [10:10am]

RESUMES [1.00pm]

PN23

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. During conference the parties have come to an agreed position on all outstanding matters in the draft order that was issued by the Commission on 13 March with the exception of two matters, redundancy and properly fixed minimum rates.

PN24

Taking account of the views put to me I've decided to deal separately with those two issues and have set a timetable to do so and i'll formalise that timetable in directions to be issued tomorrow morning.

PN25

On all else that was contained in that draft order that the Commission sent I've reviewed that draft order against the criteria contained in section 50, 51(6) and 51(7) of the WROLA Act 1996 and I'm satisfied that the proposed order meets the requirements of that legislation.

PN26

Accordingly I propose to vary the award to give effect to the relevant statutory provisions on all matters except redundancy and properly fixed minimum rates; and, for the purposes of our draft, that is on all sections except section 14(1), section 14(9)(i) and section 16(2). I propose to issue this order to have this effect shortly. Having done so, as I said, I'll issue directions in relation to the timetable for the two outstanding matters and this Commission is adjourned until then.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [1:05pm]