C2001/1476, Transcript of Proceedings [2001] AIRCTrans 688 (30 April 2001)

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER DEEGAN

C2001/1476

DEPARTMENT OF URBAN SERVICES

AND

CPSU ACT BRANCH AND OTHERS

NOTIFICATION PURSUANT TO SECTION WR 99
OF THE ACT OF A DISPUTE RE ACTIONS OF
MANAGEMENT TO INITIATE INVOLUNTARY
RETIREMENT AT THE END OF EXCESS
OFFICER'S RETENTION PERIOD

CANBERRA

10.04 AM, THURSDAY, 5 APRIL 2001

PN1

THE COMMISSIONER: Are there any changes to appearances?

PN2

MR J. PYNER: Yes, Commissioner. If the Commission pleases, secretary of the ACT Trades and Labour Council and I have a letter authorising my representation on behalf of the CPSU. I can tender the original to you and a copy to my colleagues on my left.

PN3

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Pyner. Yes. Well, the reason I notified this listing for a directions hearing was because I want to make it perfectly clear what is expected before we go to the 170MW arbitration of the matter that was notified there, the Urban Services one, right. I have listed it for 2 and 3 May so it does not give you a great deal of time to get the documentation in. That is why I want to make it clear so that nobody overdoes what is required or underdoes what it required.

PN4

What I am hoping to do is to deal with the question of the meaning of the relevant clauses of the certified agreement, and we are fairly agreed on which clauses they are in the certified agreement, are we not, and which certified agreement we are talking about. So it is the Urban Services Corporate Policy Coordination?

PN5

MR P. DEVINE: Yes, Commissioner.

PN6

THE COMMISSIONER: Enterprise Bargaining Agreement 1999 to 2002, and it is part G, Career Transition, and we are dealing with the career assistance program at item 8 of that, and the relevant parts of item 10, Involuntary Retirement and Transfer by Reduction. Now, what I would like from both parties - and that is another reason I wanted to get all the unions here today - is to find out whether on the general question you are going to put in separate submissions or there will be a union submission as to the meaning of the relevant provisions of, particularly, item 10?

PN7

MR PYNER: There will be an overriding general single presentation. There might be individual aspect - - -

PN8

THE COMMISSIONER: So if I ask for a general outline of submissions as to the union's view on that, it will probably be a coordinated union view?

PN9

MR PYNER: That is correct.

PN10

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, can I have that from you, and that from the Department of Urban Services, since in many ways neither side is actually the applicant here. Though, - that is not entirely true - it is - you notified did you not, Mr Pyner?

PN11

MR PYNER: No.

PN12

THE COMMISSIONER: No, you notified, that is right. You withdrew - you notified.

PN13

MR DEVINE: The dispute settlement procedures - - -

PN14

THE COMMISSIONER: So if I could have your outline - well, not I, but the unions and the Commission - I will not be here I am sure it will be thrilling - the unions could have your outline of submissions by 16 April? And if I could have the unions' submissions in response - I want to give you plenty of time -

PN15

MR PYNER: Ten days.

PN16

MR DEVINE: Ten days.

PN17

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. Ten days. The 26th.

PN18

MR PYNER: Whatever day that is.

PN19

THE COMMISSIONER: That is the Thursday, the 26th. And then if there is any response to that, could we have it by the Monday, 1 May, Mr Devine? That is on the general matter. On the question of each individual officer that has been identified, could we have a statement as to how Urban Services see that the clause applies to that particular officer and a notification of any witnesses, together with a brief outline of what those witnesses will be called to prove, by the same date, the 16th?

PN20

MR DEVINE: Commissioner, if I may - I have struck a difficulty that I did not foresee with the psychologists. They are hiding behind client confidentiality - sorry, I should not say they are hiding behind client confidentiality. They have instructed me that to give evidence that we would require I would need to subpoena them. It is my - I would need to put in a subpoena application, even though they are our witnesses.

PN21

THE COMMISSIONER: All right, that is not a problem. Put in a subpoena application. There is no objection is there to the psychologists being called?

PN22

MS SCHOONWATER: There may be an objection to the psychologist being called.

PN23

THE COMMISSIONER: A psychologist. Subpoenaed psychologists?

PN24

MS SCHOONWATER: There may be an objection.

PN25

THE COMMISSIONER: There may be. Well, you put in your subpoena and we will see how we go from there.

PN26

MR DEVINE: Thank you.

PN27

MS SCHOONWATER: Additionally we will be calling witnesses in relation to the first question so we will provide an outline of witness - - -

PN28

PN29

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, well, that why I would now like statements, witness statements along with your outlines, perhaps submissions and responses as to what they - it does not have to be a total statement of what they are going to say but certainly something that gives the flavour of what the witness is going to - - -

PN30

MS SCHOONWATER: Yes.

PN31

THE COMMISSIONER: And that is the same with you, Mr Devine. If you are having any witnesses to support your general contentions as to the meaning of clause 10 then you let the other side know with an outline of what they are going to - with your submissions.

PN32

MR DEVINE: Yes.

PN33

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

PN34

MR K. PRITCHARD: Commissioner, can I just ask. The psychologist, what is the intent there? Are they going to question or what is the relevance of that - - -

PN35

THE COMMISSIONER: No, this is to do with any claims that the Department of Urban Services might be making about how the officers concerned may or may not fall foul of clause 10, and I think we are talking about psychologists from accelerated pathways, are we?

PN36

MR DEVINE: Yes, Commissioner, I - the only - - -

PN37

THE COMMISSIONER: It is not a psychologist - sorry, yes, go on.

PN38

MR DEVINE: Sorry. The only reason why I am calling them is that in - as part of our presentation we will be putting in those forms that we showed you in conference and I assume that my colleagues would like to question the psychologist as to the veracity of some of the comments on those forms. If they do not want to do that then I do not need to call them, the psychologists.

PN39

THE COMMISSIONER: It is a fairly basic - we are not going into the psychology of these people concerned. It is about the documentation that you were handed at the conferences, and you will be, Mr Pritchard, if Mr Truesdale can make the - - -

PN40

MR PRITCHARD: Comes back to work.

PN41

THE COMMISSIONER: So that is all Mr Devine wants to call a psychologist for. You make up your mind whether you want to cross examine him, all right? All right, and what I was about to say about the individual officers' separate statements about how you say they fall within the particular parts of clause 10 and what witnesses you are going to call for that purpose, could you make sure that that part of the documentation only goes to the union involved with a particular officer, all right?

PN42

MR DEVINE: Yes.

PN43

THE COMMISSIONER: So that is by the same date. A and any response, as to the individuals concerned, by the date for the response of 26 April, all right, from the unions. And can you notify if you are going to be calling the person concerned and any other witnesses you might be calling in relation to their particular case, if at all, all right. And the same, an outline of their evidence. Now, any problems with any of that? Fairly clear, is it? I do not need to do this in writing, do I? Everybody understands. If there are any questions my associate will sort it out. I will not be back until the 20th but then not a great deal will have happened by then, anyway. So, you put in your subpoenas, Mr Devine, and they will be signed after the 20th.

PN44

MR DEVINE: Thank you, Commissioner.

PN45

THE COMMISSIONER: Any questions about - - -

PN46

MR DEVINE: Did you want an indication, Commissioner, of the time of each of the submissions - that we believe the time of the Commission would be taken?

PN47

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, you just give me an indication of whether you think two days is going to be enough time?

PN48

MR DEVINE: Well, certainly from Urban Services point of view, yes.

PN49

THE COMMISSIONER: Are you going to take the entire two days?

PN50

MR DEVINE: No, Commissioner, I am only looking at possibly three hours.

PN51

THE COMMISSIONER: Does two days sound like it will be enough for the unions?

PN52

MR PYNER: Given the activities - additional activities on May Day, Commissioner - - -

PN53

THE COMMISSIONER: What else is happening on May Day?

PN54

MR PYNER: Well, there are activities commencing from 7 o'clock in the morning and going right through to 7 o'clock on Monday evening.

PN55

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, just do not get too carried away. Everybody will be bright and shiny on the 2nd.

PN56

MR PYNER: I am sure we will.

PN57

THE COMMISSIONER: All right, then, the matter will be adjourned until 10 o'clock on 2 May.

ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 2 MAY 2001 [10.14am]