C3998/600, Transcript of Proceedings [2001] AIRCTrans 942 (23 May 2001)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114J MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
DX 305 Melbourne Tel:[phone] Fax:[phone]

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N 7206

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT LACY

C No 39986 of 2000
C No 14002 of 2000

AUSTRALIAN MUNICIPAL,
ADMINISTRATIVE, CLERICAL
AND SERVICES UNION and
ANOTHER

and

AGL ELECTRICITY LIMITED
and ANOTHER

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the
Act of a dispute re breaches of clauses of
the AGL Electricity Ltd Enterprise
agreement 1999, sacked worker and ignored
dispute settling procedure

MELBOURNE

11.01 AM, TUESDAY, 2 MAY 2001

Continued from 7.2.01

PN58

MR M. RIZZO: I appear on behalf of the ASU.

PN59

MR P. RILEY: I appear on behalf of the CEPU.

PN60

MR R. MILES: I appear on behalf of AGL.

PN61

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Rizzo, would you like to tell me first of all, what this is all about.

PN62

MR RIZZO: Yes, your Honour.

PN63

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I should note by the way, that I have listed two matters. I have only called on the first matter at this point in time and that is the one in respect of which we have received a request for an urgent listing.

PN64

MR RIZZO: Yes, your Honour, I appreciate that, but I think Mr Riley is involved with both matters anyway.

PN65

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Perhaps we can call them on together. Will they be dealt with jointly? Are they - - -

PN66

MR RILEY: If I can help - assist your Honour. The other issue is not under dispute. There is only one issue here under dispute, one C number. These two were put together by Commissioner Holmes originally, but they are two separate incidents and one incident is not required to be talked about today.

PN67

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see.

PN68

MR RILEY: I can't clarify which number it is, that is all.

PN69

MR RIZZO: I can, your Honour, it is the first one, C No 39986 of 2000, which is the ASU notification.

PN70

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right.

PN71

MR RIZZO: Your Honour, I am somewhat under your instruction here. I notice that in the notice of listing, it talks about mention and programming.

PN72

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN73

MR RIZZO: But would you like a brief outline of what the dispute is about?

PN74

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I think I would, but perhaps if Mr Riley has no interest in that matter, then he may wish to be excused. But, if I just hear from Mr Riley, first.

PN75

MR RILEY: Your Honour, I do actually have a member in this also.

PN76

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, Mr Rizzo, if you could tell me basically what it is about.

PN77

MR RIZZO: Your Honour, this issue was before Commissioner Holmes, and we were supposed to write to him at one stage to advise him that the issue had been resolved. Whereas, last week, I wrote to him telling him that the issue was not resolved and therefore this hearing today, and I thank your Honour for bringing it on.

PN78

It concerns the chief electrical inspectors at the company AGL, and in December last year, they were notified and we were notified, as the relevant unions that there was going to be a restructure to occur. While not going into the great detail of it, because I assume it is for another day, but essentially we have had three months of negotiations till about mid March or the end of March, and we came to some agreement with the company about how this restructure was going to occur, and agreed on such things as redeployment, compensation for various things and terms and conditions of employment, would continue to apply.

PN79

Two jobs were advertised, which are now referred to as compliance officers, as opposed to electrical inspectors, which is their traditional title, and the point of the notification here today is that at discussions that Mr Riley and I had with the company, the company made it quite clear that electrical inspection as a function, would be hardly a feature of the new jobs, the post restructure jobs, if you like. And, therefore, a number of people, members of mine and Mr Riley, did not apply for those jobs on the basis that electrical inspection would not be a major feature of the post restructure jobs, which are now called compliance officer jobs.

PN80

It has come to our attention last week, that our understanding is that these new jobs do have a significant factor of electrical inspection entailed in the jobs.

PN81

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Were the job descriptions published prior to the jobs being advertised?

PN82

MR RIZZO: Yes, yes, there were job descriptions, your Honour, but they did not go to this level of detail, if you like. But certainly, in the numerous discussions that we had with the company, it was clear that electrical inspection, residential electrical inspection would cease, and that electrical inspection would be a very minor part of this new job. It is our understanding that it is actually a significant part of this job. To bring you right up to date, we had a meeting with the company, as recently as yesterday, to try and determine how much of the new job encompassed the old job, if you like, and the company, I assume, will submit to you what they submitted to us, that it only makes up a small component. But, it is our understanding that it makes up a significant component.

PN83

And, therefore we feel aggrieved by the process in the sense that some of our members did not apply for jobs because they thought they were different jobs, or they thought that the post restructure jobs were going to be radically different to the old jobs.

PN84

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What happened to those people, who did not apply for jobs?

PN85

MR RIZZO: Well, they are subject to a number of things, your Honour. They could be subject to redeployment, or they could be subject to taking, what is known in the industry as a voluntary departure package or a VDP. I think they are pretty much their options. And they are considering those options, but at the same time they are advising their union that they are upset by the post restructure jobs, that the jobs that have been actually detailed to people in interviews and post interviews are not the jobs that have been discussed and agreed on, before they were actually advertised.

PN86

And that is the nucleus of the dispute at the moment, and we are wanting to get some clarification from the company about what the status of these jobs are, and whether our belief that they are, well more than our belief, our strong assertion, that they are radically different, what their view is on that issue. And if they are radically different, then it would be our view that these new post restructure jobs have been ill advised and we would contest whether these jobs should proceed in their current form.

PN87

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Have they actually been filled or?

PN88

MR RIZZO: I understand, your Honour, although I have no written confirmation or - I do have a verbal confirmation from the company, yes, that they have been filled, as of, I think, Thursday of last week. Therefore, that was the urgency of my letter, your Honour, because I knew they were imminently going to be filled, and so Thursday or Friday of last week, your Honour, I can't tell you with any great precision, but it was about that time frame. People have been appointed, and yes, so it was Thursday or Friday last week.

PN89

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: How many positions are we talking about altogether?

PN90

MR RIZZO: There are three positions, your Honour, that have been filled.

PN91

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: How many members have not applied for jobs?

PN92

MR RIZZO: Two people have not applied for those jobs.

PN93

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And, what would you be looking for the Commission to do? To conciliate some result, or arbitrate some result or?

PN94

MR RIZZO: Well, in the first instance, to conciliate a result, your Honour, in the sense that we want to clarify what these post restructured jobs are actually like, and whether our contention that they are significantly different to what we had discussed, is correct. So, we would be looking for the Commission's assistance by way of conciliation in the first instance.

PN95

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. All right, well perhaps I will hear what Mr - did you want to say anything more at this stage?

PN96

MR RIZZO: No, I mean, I could go into a great amount of detail, your Honour, but I don't think that is for today.

PN97

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, no, I don't want you to do that.

PN98

MR RIZZO: I think I have given you the nucleus of the dispute.

PN99

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Did Commissioner Holmes conduct any conciliation previously?

PN100

MR RIZZO: Yes, he did, your Honour. Yes, we had a number of hearings before him, and some hearings were delayed, because of his ill health. I can't recall, but there has been two or three hearings before him in the last three months.

PN101

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But, they were conciliations, were they?

PN102

MR RIZZO: Yes, they were conciliations. And as I thought, we thought we had signed off on this, up until last week. Until we, it is our understanding that these jobs were completely, well not completely different, but significantly different to what we had understood. We were about to sign off on it, if you like.

PN103

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN104

MR RIZZO: If your Honour pleases.

PN105

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Riley, do you want to say anything?

PN106

MR RILEY: Your Honour, for the purposes, no I don't think there is any more I need to add, I think that is a full overview of basically what the situation is.

PN107

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are the members that are interested in applying for the jobs CEPU members, or ASU members?

PN108

MR RILEY: Yes, there is, we have, out of the whole group, we have four, the ASU have two. Four people are successful. There is one unsuccessful CEPU and one unsuccessful ASU.

PN109

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So, your members may be affected adversely if you like, if - - -

PN110

MR RILEY: Well, I have a thin line to run here, your Honour, because I have three people who have been appointed, and are happy with their appointments. I have one person who is appeased. So I am running a thin line here. I have to try and work through the issues. Obviously there are redeployment options and I am trying to make sure, but notwithstanding that, I suppose we need to go through the initial issues, to find out whether or not the original job description that we negotiated, is the one that the guys applied for.

PN111

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, okay. Mr Miles.

PN112

MR MILES: Thank you, your Honour. As Mr Rizzo said, we have had quite a number of discussions over the last six months, on the inspection, the review of how many we needed and how many we didn't need. We came to an agreement back in about March, as Michael has just mentioned, whereby we have gone ahead and advertised and since appointed three people to those positions. We have continued discussions on those roles, and also on the redeployment of the other two guys who never applied for positions. We met yesterday, finished about 5 o'clock last night, with the discussion on the roles of the positions, and clarifying that there hasn't been a shift in the original positions that were advertised.

PN113

The role of the inspection side, the guys were previously doing roughly 100 per cent or nearly 100 per cent of the job inspection. As we passed on yesterday, that will revert to probably under 10 per cent of a limited type inspection, a specialist type role, which had been aired right along the whole process. So, as I said, we met late yesterday, and concluded the meetings, feeling that we had a process in place to aggrieve all parties.

PN114

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yesterday, you felt that that process was in place?

PN115

MR MILES: Yes.

PN116

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: When you say, a process in place - - -

PN117

MR MILES: Well, clarification of the roles, that Michael felt that there was being a significant shift from the original advertised positions, which we advised that there wasn't. It was down the line and had been previous correspondence and discussions on the roles of those positions, and also coming up with suggestions of redeployment roles for the other two, who had not applied for positions.

PN118

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, but I gather from what Mr Rizzo said this morning, there is some concern that perhaps the inspection role is a greater proportion of the work than what you have indicated now, and what was indicated yesterday.

PN119

MR MILES: We indicated it at the same level of under 10 per cent, yes, yesterday. We are quite willing to work through that process, which we have all the way through, just to clarify that position.

PN120

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Well, when you say you are quite willing to work through that process, would you be agreeable to it going into conciliation on the matter?

PN121

MR MILES: Probably not, in the course of today, but, yes, I would have hoped we would have done with having to go to the conciliation process of doing it at the local level.

PN122

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But I gather from what you say also, that your understanding that the matter was resolved yesterday, doesn't seem - - -

PN123

MR MILES: Or still progressing, that we were going to get to a result which was amicable for both parties.

PN124

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right. Well, do you foresee any further negotiation without the necessity for the Commission to act as a conciliator?

PN125

MR MILES: I would hope we would have further negotiation prior to conciliation.

PN126

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: When would you see that occurring?

PN127

MR MILES: Well, tomorrow, whatever. Just as soon as it can be arranged. We are quite willing to pursue the issue, as we have done during the whole process.

PN128

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right. Mr Rizzo, do you see any benefit in continuing your own negotiations at this stage, subject to having the matter called on at some urgent time, if it was necessary to do so?

PN129

MR RIZZO: Yes, your Honour, I do. My concern with getting it in the Commission again was, for two simple reasons: one, that I had to advise Commissioner Holmes whether the issue was resolved or not, and obviously I advised him that it was not, and secondly, I was concerned that once those positions were filled, that we would, you know, sort of, be in a difficult position to try and negotiate it, and change things, once those positions had been filled. Now, those positions have been filled. The company, as you have heard, still gives their position as it was last night, that electrical inspection is a minor part of the work.

PN130

That is not our understanding. So we will have to tease that one through. But, to answer your question specifically, I think there is value in us meeting with the company again, but I would like the file to be open and to come back to the Commission if necessary, your Honour.

PN131

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I mean, I can list the matter for further, for a conference, or for further progress at some particular point in time, if you so desire.

PN132

MR RIZZO: Yes, I think that would be good, your Honour, if that can be done, because I know the Commission is pressed for time, so if we could set a date today, that would probably help.

PN133

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just excuse me a moment.

PN134

MR RIZZO: Yes, your Honour.

PN135

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Look, why don't I list the matter for Friday at 11.45.

PN136

MR RIZZO: This Friday, your Honour?

PN137

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN138

MR RIZZO: Yes.

PN139

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: For report back and conciliation conference, if appropriate. And, if the matter isn't resolved at the close of business on that day, or at the close of our business then, perhaps we can do some further programming at that point in time. Would that give the parties an opportunity to conduct further negotiations and perhaps resolve the matter themselves?

PN140

MR RIZZO: Yes, your Honour. I think that it only gives us tomorrow, in fact.

PN141

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN142

MR RIZZO: I am not sure that we will fix it all tomorrow. Is it possible that we could have a bit more time and perhaps schedule a hearing for next week?

PN143

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, how much time do you think you want?

PN144

MR RIZZO: Well, a hearing on Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday of next week, would be good, your Honour, if possible.

PN145

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I have a five day hearing, commencing on Monday of next week.

PN146

MR RIZZO: I see, yes.

PN147

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, that is not to say that I couldn't list it for 4.15 or 8 am or something like that if you want to.

PN148

MR RIZZO: Well 4.15 on any one of those days would be good, your Honour.

PN149

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, how about 4.15 on the Tuesday.

PN150

MR RIZZO: Yes.

PN151

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. Well, I will list it for 4.15 on Tuesday, for report back, and I direct the parties in the meantime, of course, to continue their negotiations. Presumably that will be a three way process including the ASU, the CEPU and AGL, and then at 4.15 on Tuesday, what date is that, sorry, it is - - -

PN152

MR RIZZO: It is the 8th, your Honour.

PN153

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: - - - the 8th. The parties can report what progress has been made. If in the interim the matter is resolved, and you don't require the Commission to participate in any further negotiation, then you could perhaps let my associate know, and the matter can be taken out of the list.

PN154

MR RIZZO: Yes, I will notify your office of that, your Honour.

PN155

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well. All right. Did you want to say any more, Mr Riley?

PN156

MR RILEY: No, I am fine on that.

PN157

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Miles, is that convenient for you?

PN158

MR MILES: Yes, no problems.

PN159

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will adjourn the matter to 4.15 on Tuesday the 8th.

ADJOURNED UNTIL TUESDAY, 8 MAY 2001 [4.15pm]