C2001/4549, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 1029 (2 April 2002)

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT HARRISON

C2001/4549

STATE RAIL AUTHORITY

and

COMMUNICATIONS, ELECTRICAL, ELECTRONIC,
ENERGY, INFORMATION, POSTAL, PLUMBING AND
ALLIED SERVICES UNION OF AUSTRALIA AND ANOTHER

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the
Act of a dispute re claims for improved wages
and conditions for electrical systems operators,
SCADA technicians and protection technicians at
the Electrical Operating Centre, Sydney

SYDNEY

10.09 AM, THURSDAY, 14 MARCH 2002

Continued from 29.11.01

Hearing Continuing

PN34

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are there any changes to the appearances in this matter?

PN35

MR S. CLARK: Yes, I appear for the ASU.

PN36

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thanks, Mr Clark.

PN37

MR CARCARY: I might also indicate, your Honour, that MR M. ROBERTS is also sitting at the bench this morning.

PN38

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thanks. I might just indicate that I have received a number of documents from both of you and I should identify them at an appropriate time. You can either seek to tender them or do with them what you wish but I should indicate that unless documents are tendered and marked, you should not assume that they will be considered by me in this matter. So in effect, don't overlook to tender any of the documents either of you have filed to date. I have received an affidavit of - these are the union witnesses - Mr Colin Porter dated 22 February, Mr Stephen Durbridge dated -

PN39

MR CARCARY: Your Honour, the affidavit of Mr Stephen Durbridge, there's a slight problem in our office. The copy that was submitted was actually an unsigned copy.

PN40

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I see.

PN41

MR CARCARY: If you grant me permission, I'd like to hand up a signed copy of that particular document.

PN42

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thanks. Nothing different in the sworn copy to that which was earlier filed?

PN43

MR CARCARY: No, your Honour.

PN44

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, all right. This sworn copy doesn't have the annexures. I assume I can just confidently put the affidavit, together with the documents previously annexed?

PN45

MR CARCARY: Yes.

PN46

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. So returning to what I was saying earlier, an affidavit of Mr Stephen Durbridge dated 12 March, an affidavit of - is it Trene Markovski, dated 22 February, an affidavit of William McGregor dated 25 February, an affidavit of John Kospetas dated 22 February. You might need to remind me a little later whether there are some documents filed earlier which I think there are that I should now be removing from the file and putting with this bundle of documents that I've just announced.

PN47

MR CARCARY: Yes, your Honour, there were some documents submitted earlier.

PN48

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, let's make sure that then I have in the one pile the documents that it's likely at some stage you will be seeking to tender. Would it be accurate to describe these as the documents that were provided to me under cover of a letter dated 28 February 2001?

PN49

MR CARCARY: That sounds right, your Honour. There were submissions -

PN50

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It probably was 28 February either I suspect. It might have been 28 October. Yes, I just see I'd made a handwritten note on that. A number of them in turn are in bundles. The first annexure is a memorandum to the Commissioner from SCADA staff subject position summary. I should indicate that has a number of attachments to it. We can return to that if we will need to ascertain precisely what's in that bundle. A memorandum to me dated 13 September 2001, an affidavit of Mr Stephen Durbridge dated 7 September 2001, a document titled Evidence in Support of Claim.

PN51

There are three documents bearing that title and I might just identify in relation to each of them what they specifically refer to. The first electrical operators handover claim, the next the electrical system operators pay increase claim. That one being relating to the SCADA software and the next similarly described but relating to managing the Kiama to Dapto electrification. So I'll leave all of those for the time being in a bundle, Mr Carcary but you can let me know if any of them are superseded by the affidavit subsequently lodged.

PN52

MR CARCARY: I can indicate at this point, your Honour, that all those documents have been superseded by the affidavits recently lodged.

PN53

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. I have received from State Rail under cover of a letter from Henry Davis York dated 12 March 2002 the following affidavits: one of Brenda Ware dated 11 March 2002; Andrew Dwyer dated the same day; Mr Gregory Greenhalgh again dated the same day and Mr Robert Simpson dated 4 March 2002. Is there anything that either of you think I should have received that I haven't announced? Mr Carcary?

PN54

MR CARCARY: No, your Honour.

PN55

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Woods?

PN56

MR WOODS: No, your Honour.

PN57

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I have perused each of the documents that have been filed. A lot of it is not familiar to me, particularly the numerous initials and acronyms that are used by the parties. By the end of reading the documents, I think I picked up a number of them but there's still some that I don't understand and there will be some other matters that I'm sure will come out in evidence to assist me in better understanding a number of the technical concepts contained in the documents.

PN58

At some stage I suspect I will ask you both to agree on a glossary of terms and what I might do at some stage over the next couple of days is provide to you all the initials or acronyms that I don't understand and you can insert on the right hand side of that paper what you both agree it means. Have you had any discussion and reached any agreement as to how you wish to tackle this exercise? Mr Carcary?

PN59

MR CARCARY: We haven't really had any discussion at this stage, your Honour. However, I think from our side we would appreciate the opportunity to carry out a site inspection.

PN60

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: When did you want to do that?

PN61

MR CARCARY: Well, we would see it as being appropriate earlier rather than later.

PN62

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. I probably can't accommodate that because of other commitments I have outside of court hours, including the need for me to make some calls at least during today if not tomorrow as well when I return to chambers during brief breaks we might have. So I'm sorry about that. I also don't know if this matter will now finish in two days but in any event, by some time tomorrow afternoon, I think we will return to the need for inspections and when they will occur.

PN63

MR CARCARY: I appreciate that, your Honour. We were just sort of hoping it would sooner rather than later.

PN64

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I understand that. Did you want to do them today, did you?

PN65

MR CARCARY: That would have been our preference, your Honour.

PN66

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, have you agreed to some program with Mr Woods about inspections?

PN67

MR CARCARY: We have approached Mr Woods about an inspection. Without speaking for him, I can indicate - - -

PN68

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Woods, do you understand that there's some program agreed for inspections to have occurred today?

PN69

MR WOODS: Mr Carcary raised it this morning to do the inspection early today. My personal view was that we didn't think that an inspection was necessary but we were happy to have one. As to what was precisely to be inspected, we haven't had a discussion about that.

PN70

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, normally I expect advance notice of what is to be inspected because you see, I have to make arrangements for a mobile transcription service to accompany me and there's other transport and other arrangements so unless I overlooked it, I don't think I was given advance notice of what the proposed timetable would be today for inspections. So that's another reason why Mr Carcary, I wouldn't be inclined to accommodate them today but does that then place your side in some difficulty in relation to how you thought this matter might proceed? For example, the availability of the witnesses who have filed affidavits?

PN71

MR CARCARY: We do have some difficulty with an inspection not occurring this morning. The witnesses that we intend to use and have filed affidavits are on a time constraint because of shift rosters etcetera so yes, it does cause us some problems, your Honour.

PN72

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I trust you appreciate though that the usual practice is that the Commission is put on notice about an inspection because it's not just a case of me coming down from the bench and going off on inspections. There's a number of administrative matters we have to attend to. So what shall we now do? Mr Carcary?

PN73

MR CARCARY: I'd probably seek the indulgence of the Commission and ask that we adjourn at least for today.

PN74

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Woods, what do you say about that?

PN75

MR WOODS: I'll just get instructions first of all.

PN76

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Am I pushing the two of you about a matter that might best first be the subject of a discussion between you and then I'll come back and -

PN77

MR WOODS: We can have that discussion, your Honour.

PN78

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That might be wise then I'll just pick up where I've left off. Shall we do that?

PN79

MR CARCARY: Thank you, your Honour.

PN80

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The Commission now adjourns for a short time.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT

RESUMES [10.30am]

PN81

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Carcary?

PN82

MR CARCARY: Yes, thank you, Senior Deputy President. We've had a discussion between the parties and if the Commission would indulge itself to vacate today and resume tomorrow morning, firstly hearing evidence from the SCADA and protection technician which would be Mr Durbridge and Mr Porter. We would then seek to carry out the inspection at the electrical operating centre tomorrow afternoon commencing at 1.30 so that we can take yourself through the processes and the handover as well as a general inspection of the operating centre.

PN83

The handover actually occurs roughly between 2.30 and 3.00 so we would stay there and view the actual handover occurring and then if the Commission could set a date further down the track so that we could then hear evidence about the operator type issues, talking to the other party. We could also in that time develop the glossary.

PN84

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, well, I'm happy to do that and we will now go off transcript to talk about some arrangements that we need to make particularly relating to the inspections and before I do so indicate that this matter is now adjourned until tomorrow morning. Anything to be gained by a 9.30 start or is 10am adequate you think for Mr Durbridge and Mr Porter. Mr Carcary?

PN85

MR CARCARY: I think 10am.

PN86

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: 10am. Yes, adjourned until 10 tomorrow morning.

ADJOURNED UNTIL THURSDAY, 15 MARCH 2002 [10.32am]