C0083/698, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 1629 (14 May 2002)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT

C No 00836 of 98

SOCIAL AND COMMUNITY SERVICES (ACT) AWARD 1995

Review under Item 51, Schedule 5,
Transitional WROLA Act 1996
re conditions of employment

CANBERRA

10.11 AM, WEDNESDAY, 16 JANUARY 2002

PN123

MR B. O'BRIEN: If the Commission pleases, I appear for the Australian Services Union. With me is MR P. PARAMORE.

PN124

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good morning, gentlemen.

PN125

MR K. GODFREY: If the Commission pleases, I appear for Jobs Australia Limited.

PN126

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good morning, Mr Godfrey.

PN127

MR D. MORPHETT: If it pleases the Commission, I appear for the Confederation of ACT Industry.

PN128

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good morning, Mr Morphett.

PN129

MR G. JERVIS: If the Commission pleases, I seek leave to appear for respondent members of Australian Business Industrial.

PN130

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right. Thank you, Mr Jervis. Any issues with leave?

PN131

MR JERVIS: No, your Honour.

PN132

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Leave is granted. Well, now, gentlemen, most of us were here last year for an application in relation to the updating of wage rates in this award for safety net reviews. We are back again today to handle the review of wage rates in the award itself which comes as a consequence of the item 51 review of the award. Now, directions have been given. Written submissions have been received some time ago. I wonder therefore if we might start with any progress reports you might wish to make on any discussions since submissions have been made. And having done that, I then propose to adjourn into conference to scope out some of the issues and see where we get to. So, any reports you wish to make?

PN133

MR O'BRIEN: If I could kick off perhaps, your Honour. As you said, you issued a statement and there were submissions put in the. The ASU tendered a submission. I would like to have that marked if I could, your Honour.

PN134

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sure. Well, in that case it is probably appropriate to mark all of the submissions, is it, just for ease of reference?

PN135

MR O'BRIEN: Yes, I think, so. Has everybody got a copy?

PN136

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just to make sure we are all referring to the same document, is this the document - - -

PN137

MR O'BRIEN: Do you want a copy, your Honour?

PN138

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The document dated 15 October 2001?

PN139

MR O'BRIEN: That is the one, yes.

PN140

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Headed "ASU Submission in Response to SDP Cartwright's Direction of 14 September 2001".

PN141

MR O'BRIEN: That is correct.

PN142

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It has already got a marking of ASU1 on it.

PN143

MR O'BRIEN: That is in respect of that other matter, your Honour.

PN144

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN145

MR O'BRIEN: But we will keep the same marking, for consistency?

PN146

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think that would be convenient. We will mark that as ASU1. Good, remarkable foresight.

EXHIBIT #ASU1 SUBMISSION IN RESPONSE TO A DIRECTION OF SDP CARTWRIGHT DATED 14/09/01

PN147

MR O'BRIEN: Now, could I also hand up an amendment sheet to that, your Honour which I would like separately marked?

PN148

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Certainly.

PN149

MR O'BRIEN: If that could become 2, your Honour.

PN150

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that an amendment of the table that is already in ASU1?

PN151

MR O'BRIEN: It is a replacement page for the tables on pages 5 and 6 of ASU1.

PN152

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. We will mark that ASU2, amended table of wage relativities.

EXHIBIT #ASU2 AMENDED TABLE OF WAGE RELATIVITIES TO REPLACE TABLES ON PAGES 5 AND 6 OF ASU1

PN153

MR O'BRIEN: Now, I have received a document from Mr Gordon Jervis. I do not know if there are any more that your Honour has received. That was from the Confederation of ACT Industry - sorry, David Morphett. I beg your pardon.

PN154

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Dated 29 October 2001?

PN155

MR O'BRIEN: That is the one.

PN156

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Morphett, that is the latest submission and the document you wish to - - -

PN157

MR MORPHETT: Yes. There is nothing else to add to that at this time.

PN158

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. What is the acronym you use for your organisation?

PN159

MR MORPHETT: Pardon me?

PN160

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What is the acronym you use for your organisation?

PN161

MR MORPHETT: CONFACT.

PN162

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. So, we will mark that CONFACT1.

EXHIBIT #CONFACT1 DOCUMENT FROM MR DAVID MORPHETT DATED 29/10/01

PN163

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Any other documents?

PN164

MR MORPHETT: Nothing at this stage.

PN165

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. Yes, go ahead, Mr O'Brien.

PN166

MR O'BRIEN: I have only received that document from the employers, your Honour. I do not know if you may have received anything else perchance?

PN167

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There was another submission from Jobs Australia.

PN168

MR O'BRIEN: I do not think that one referred to the ACT Award?

PN169

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, it does. It deals with - this is a document dated, or with the covering letter of 15 October 2001 addressed to me. And attached to it are two pages of submissions covering all of the SACS Awards, including a specific section on the ACT Award.

PN170

MR GODFREY: That is what I have been trying to find at the moment, your Honour, because Ms Ryan was, as you are aware, doing this matter, and for some reason my mathematics is supposed to be better.

PN171

MR O'BRIEN: Your Honour, I have got exhibit JA1 from the Queensland matter. Is that the document you are referring to?

PN172

MR GODFREY: No. We made separate submissions in Queensland. There was a document we made which was the original directions that your Honour gave which wanted notes about all the awards. And we made some brief comments, I believe, about the ACT Award in that document, which I think is the document you are referring to.

PN173

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. I have not got this one marked, Mr O'Brien.

PN174

MR O'BRIEN: I have not received that document, your Honour.

PN175

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. I think it is not the one that was tendered in Queensland.

PN176

MR O'BRIEN: No.

PN177

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This was an overall summary relating to the various awards, including the ACT Award. Well, what I propose then is that we mark this as JA1 and copy it for all of the parties.

PN178

MR GODFREY: Was that dated 15 October, your Honour - the covering letter?

PN179

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN180

MR GODFREY: And it was signed by - - -

PN181

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Carolyn Ryan, yes.

PN182

MR GODFREY: I think I have a copy of it, yes.

PN183

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And there is no separate marking on the attachment. But it is headed "Social and Community Services Awards". And it goes through "Executive Summary, the Victorian Award, ACT Award, Queensland, WA and Northern Territory". Is that the document that you have on file?

PN184

MR GODFREY: Yes, that is the document I have as well.

PN185

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It is just a matter of whose copy do we want to take? It is probably appropriate to take yours, since mine has the odd marking on it.

PN186

MR GODFREY: I will make sure it is the same number of pages. That is three pages?

PN187

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Correct. We will mark that as JA1 and give copies to everybody.

EXHIBIT #JA1 SUMMARY RELATING TO VARIOUS SOCIAL AND COMMUNITY SERVICE AWARDS DATED 15/10/01

PN188

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And I think, Mr O'Brien, they are the three documents that I have brought that were specifically related to today's hearing, unless you have got any others.

PN189

MR O'BRIEN: No, your Honour. What I would like to do though. There are a number of other documents that I would like to tender now, to get them marked, whilst we are doing that. Also to lighten my bag.

PN190

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You have a habit of doing that, Mr O'Brien.

PN191

MR O'BRIEN: Well, it is very understandable.

PN192

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just before you do, can I ask any other of the gentlemen whether there are written submissions I may have missed that for ease of identification we should mark now?

PN193

MR JERVIS: Not from us.

PN194

MR MORPHETT: No, your Honour.

PN195

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So, it is those three, plus the amended table that Mr O'Brien has provided. Okay. Do your worst, Mr O'Brien, in loading our bags.

PN196

MR O'BRIEN: Thank you, your Honour. Right. The next document will be extracts from the predecessor '95 award made by Commissioner O'Shea on 1.12.95. That is Print M7438. Do you intend marking the prints?

PN197

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I think it is probably, for ease of identification, easier if we mark all the documents.

PN198

MR O'BRIEN: Yes. It's only extracts. Yes.

PN199

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Since it is an extract, let us just mark it and we all know what document you are referring to.

PN200

MR O'BRIEN: Yes. And it is easier to refer to when you are conferencing the submissions.

PN201

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Okay. We will mark this as ASU3 extract from award by Commissioner O'Shea dated 1 December 1995.

EXHIBIT #ASU3 EXTRACT FROM AWARD BY COMMISSIONER O'SHEA DATED 01/12/95

PN202

MR O'BRIEN: The next document will be a transcript of the making of the Social and Community Services ACT Award 1995, and it is C No 38926 of '95. And I just point out the decision is in the transcript on page 12.

PN203

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. We probably would not normally mark that, but I think for consistency we will. We will mark that ASU4, transcript from 27 October 1995.

PN204

MR O'BRIEN: Thank you, your Honour.

EXHIBIT #ASU4 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MAKING OF THE SOCIAL AND COMMUNITY SERVICES ACT AWARD 1995 DATED 27/10/95

PN205

MR O'BRIEN: And the next document is an extract from print, 905039. This was the making of the Social and Community Services ACT Award 2001.

PN206

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That becomes ASU5, extract from the order of Commissioner Deegan dated 8 June 2001. Or is it the - yes, it is an extract.

EXHIBIT #ASU5 EXTRACT FROM THE ORDER OF COMMISSIONER DEEGAN DATED 08/06/2001

PN207

MR O'BRIEN: That is ASU4.

PN208

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: ASU5.

PN209

MR O'BRIEN: The next document is a decision of Commissioner Deegan, Print 905037, in respect of the item 51 review on rates. Sorry, I think I have given the wrong document up here. Yes, they got out of order.

PN210

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will mark ASU6, decision of Commissioner Deegan, 8 June 2001.

PN211

MR O'BRIEN: Sorry. I am getting out of order here.

PN212

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: ASU1 was the original submission.

PN213

MR O'BRIEN: I have got that.

PN214

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: ASU 2 - - -

PN215

MR O'BRIEN: I have got right up to ASU 4. I have got the transcript.

PN216

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, just bear with me. ASU1 was the original. ASU2 was your amended table. ASU3 was the Commissioner O'Shea extract from December '95. ASU4 was the transcript of October '95. ASU5 was the Commissioner Deegan order of 8 June. And ASU6 is the Commissioner Deegan decision of 8 June.

EXHIBIT #ASU6 DECISION OF COMMISSIONER DEEGAN DATED 08/06/2001

PN217

MR O'BRIEN: Yes. I am missing a copy of ASU6. If I could have one of those, thanks. Now, the next document, which I think we have not marked as yet, is an order of Senior Deputy President Cartwright, Wages Safety Net Review, April '98.

PN218

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It cannot have been April '98.

PN219

MR MORPHETT: No. It must have been August 2001.

PN220

MR O'BRIEN: Yes, the April '98 Safety Net Review.

PN221

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay.

PN222

MR O'BRIEN: It was 13 August 2001.

PN223

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So, the order was 13 August 2001?

PN224

MR O'BRIEN: 13 August 2001, Print 907662.

PN225

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. So, that becomes ASU7, an order which I made on 13 August 2001.

EXHIBIT #ASU7 ORDER MADE BY SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT ON 13/08/2001

PN226

MR O'BRIEN: The next document is a table showing the 2001 adjusted rates for the - sorry, safety net review showing all the respective safety net increases to apply to the ACT board. It shows the increases outstanding for the '99, 2000 and 2001 safety nets.

PN227

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Did we see this one back in July?

PN228

MR O'BRIEN: Yes, your Honour, you did. It was in the other matter.

PN229

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. I thought it was familiar. So, that would be ASU8, spreadsheet of safety net reviews.

EXHIBIT #ASU8 SPREADSHEET OF SAFETY NET REVIEWS

PN230

MR O'BRIEN: And the next document is a table showing the 2001 adjusted rates for the Queensland, Western Australia, ACT and Northern Territory SACS Award.

PN231

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So, we will mark as ASU9 SACS Awards comparisons as of 2001.

PN232

MR O'BRIEN: Two thousand and one. It also shows the projected 2001 safety net adjusted rate for the ACT.

PN233

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Presumably building on your ASU8?

PN234

MR O'BRIEN: Yes, your Honour.

EXHIBIT #ASU9 SACS AWARDS COMPARISONS AS OF 2001 AND PROJECTED 2001 SAFETY NET ADJUSTED RATE FOR THE ACT

PN235

MR O'BRIEN: Now, the next document shows the pre-safety net relativities to the trades rate for the Victorian, Queensland, Western Australian, ACT and Northern Territory SACS Awards.

PN236

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You still have quite a supply in front of you, Mr O'Brien.

PN237

MR GODFREY: I need to go out and buy a new bag.

PN238

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: ASU10 is SACS Awards pre-safety net adjustment relativities to the hundred per cent trades rate.

EXHIBIT #ASU10 SACS AWARDS PRE-SAFETY NET ADJUSTMENT RELATIVITIES TO THE HUNDRED PER CENT TRADES RATE

PN239

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: When it says "pre-safety net relativities", no doubt you are going to speak to these. Are these brought back to a common date?

PN240

MR O'BRIEN: They are brought back to when the awards were made, prior to the actual - the rates that applied immediately before the first safety net adjustments. So, the earliest of the safety net adjustments would have applied on top of those particular rates and relativities.

PN241

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. So, they are not necessarily at the same time? They are at the time the awards were made?

PN242

MR O'BRIEN: Prior to the safety net adjustments being made to them - immediately prior to.

PN243

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay.

PN244

MR O'BRIEN: And the next document is the calculation showing the percentage relationships for the ACT SACS Awards at level 3(1) and 3(2) to the metal trades fitter.

PN245

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So, ASU11 is calculation showing percentage relationship of the ACT SACS Award level 3(1) and 3(2) with the metal trades fitter rate.

EXHIBIT #ASU11 CALCULATION SHOWING PERCENTAGE RELATIONSHIP OF THE ACT SACS AWARD LEVEL 3(1) AND 3(2) WITH THE METAL TRADES FITTER RATE

PN246

MR O'BRIEN: And the next document, your Honour, is Print PR911777 being a decision of yours - an interim decision of your in Sydney, 23 November 2001 relating to the Social and Community Services Queensland Award 1996.

PN247

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We will mark that as ASU12, my interim decision of 23 November 2001.

EXHIBIT #ASU12 INTERIM DECISION OF SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT DATED 23/11/2001

PN248

MR O'BRIEN: And the next document is Print PR912428. It is another decision of yourself, your Honour - Senior Deputy President Cartwright - per 8 December 2001 relating to the Social and Community Services industry community service workers West Australian Award 1996.

PN249

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will mark that as ASU13, decision of 8 December 2001.

EXHIBIT #ASU13 DECISION OF SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT RELATING TO THE SOCIAL AND COMMUNITY SERVICES INDUSTRY COMMUNITY SERVICE WORKERS WESTERN AUSTRALIAN AWARD 1996 DATED 08/12/2001

PN250

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: How many more have we got, Mr O'Brien?

PN251

MR O'BRIEN: Several, your Honour. There are still a few there. The next document will be an extract of transcript, and C No 01025 of 1998.

PN252

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So, this would be ASU14, an extract of transcript from 5 December 2001.

EXHIBIT #ASU14 EXTRACT OF TRANSCRIPT DATED 05/12/2001

PN253

MR O'BRIEN: The next document will be a copy of a letter to the Chamber of Commerce and Industry in Perth dated 30 November 2001.

PN254

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: ASU15, letter from Mr O'Brien to Mr Mike O'Connor dated 30 November 2001.

EXHIBIT #ASU15 COPY OF A LETTER FROM MR O'BRIEN TO MR MIKE O'CONNOR DATED 30/11/2001

PN255

MR O'BRIEN: The next document will be a letter to various employers, headed to Stephen Nance, Queensland Chamber of Commerce and Industry, regarding the conversation process of the Queensland SACS Award.

PN256

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: ASU16 is - on the top is - a letter from Mr O'Brien dated 9 January 2001 to a range of recipients including Carolyn Ryan, Stephen Nance and Michael Patty.

EXHIBIT #ASU16 LETTER FROM MR O'BRIEN TO A RANGE OF RECIPIENTS INCLUDING CAROLYN RYAN, STEPHEN NANCE AND MICHAEL PATTY DATED 09/01/2001

PN257

MR O'BRIEN: The next document will be a letter from Lisa Suzanne Heap regarding the ACT SACS Award, which was exhibit A6 in the safety net adjustment review of this award.

PN258

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So, we will mark that as ASU17, letter from Lisa Heap dated 8 August 2001.

EXHIBIT #ASU17 LETTER FROM LISA SUZANNE HEAP DATED 08/08/2001

PN259

MR O'BRIEN: The next document will be a letter from Alison Peters and a witness statement attached dated 22.7.01.

PN260

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: ASU17 is - sorry ASU18 is a fax from Alison Peters to Barry O'Brien dated 22 July 2001.

EXHIBIT #ASU18 FACSIMILE FROM ALISON PETERS TO BARRY O'BRIEN WITH A WITNESS STATEMENT ATTACHED DATED 22/07/2001

PN261

MR O'BRIEN: The next document will be an extract from the Australian Public Service Award 1998.

PN262

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I note that it is attaching an unsigned witness statement.

PN263

MR O'BRIEN: That is right, your Honour. This document would have actually appeared in this matter before you now before - when it was - the file was with Commissioner Deegan. And it is a signed copy there, I would believe.

PN264

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right.

PN265

MR O'BRIEN: I do not know what the number was. But it was originally tendered there.

PN266

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. Sorry. You have moved on to another one?

PN267

MR O'BRIEN: The next document is the extract from the Australian Public Service Award 1998.

PN268

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So, ASU19 is extract from Australian Public Service Award 1998.

EXHIBIT #ASU19 EXTRACT FROM AUSTRALIAN PUBLIC SERVICE AWARD 1998

PN269

MR O'BRIEN: The next document is a spreadsheet of rates - 2001 rates for the West Australian, Queensland, Victoria and South Australian Local Government Awards. So, they're all post item 51 review rates.

PN270

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: ASU20 is headed "2001 Rates Comparison".

PN271

MR O'BRIEN: That is ASU20?

PN272

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

EXHIBIT #ASU20 RATES COMPARISON FOR 2001

PN273

MR O'BRIEN: And the next document was a exhibit handed up in the Queensland matter, which is an extract of awards showing relativities for four-year degree entries and three-year degree entry points. I think that was ASU3 in the Queensland proceedings.

PN274

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We will mark the whole folder as ASU21.

PN275

MR O'BRIEN: Thank you, your Honour.

PN276

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And how do we describe that? A comparison of - - -

PN277

MR O'BRIEN: Percentage relativities to the fitter for four-year degree entry levels and three-year degree entry levels.

PN278

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.

EXHIBIT #ASU21 FOLDER SHOWING PERCENTAGE RELATIVITIES FOR FOUR-YEAR DEGREE ENTRY LEVELS AND THREE-YEAR DEGREE ENTRY LEVELS

PN279

MR O'BRIEN: Now, I am going to take mercy at that point.

PN280

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. I was going to say, given that that matter has already been decided in two other contexts, do we need to have that material before us here?

PN281

MR O'BRIEN: Well, that is something that I needed to test with you, your Honour. I was not sure in a review of this nature whether I needed to - as they are all being done separately - whether I needed to go through the same process again and again and again.

PN282

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay.

PN283

MR O'BRIEN: So, you have clarified that for me. It may still be of use in clarifying things in the conference.

PN284

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right.

PN285

MR O'BRIEN: Now, look, I have other things here which I could tender, but I think rather than - I notice an air of resignation when people thought I was at the end of it. But I will not shatter that. So, I think it would be an appropriate time if we went into a conference. I think the only thing I should mention - perhaps a little bit of progress was made yesterday. There was a number of employers met with the ASU. The ASU initiated a meeting. Mr Morphett was in attendance. There was a Mr Daniel Stubbs from ACTCOSS was there.

PN286

Australian Business lawyers were represented by me and McDonnell. And Marymead was represented by Suzanne Mickleburgh and another chap - Barry - whose name eludes me at the time. I am sorry, your Honour, I cannot think of the surname there. But there was a few people that attended that.

PN287

At that conference I did explain to the employers the progress that has been made so far in the other two sittings. And with particularly Mr Morphett, who I knew would be in attendance today, I asked him if he would have a position on the key classification and whether or not he was going to oppose the key classification being at level 3(2) in this award being the 130 per cent relativity to the fitter for the entry point for a four-year degree.

PN288

Now, I am not going to put him on the spot at this present moment. He may wish to reserve his position on answering that. And so I think it would be advisable if we did have a conference and people could be less formal and just get down to the real business at hand.

PN289

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I take it from the preliminary comment that you have made, that in the discussion there is agreement that in accordance with the Commission's principles, the rates in this award do need review?

PN290

MR O'BRIEN: The ASU's position has not altered from our position which is on our - in exhibit ASU1. And I will just - just so that I clarify it for the other parties as well as your Honour, the position that we have is, yes it does review under item 51(4), and the award requires minimum rate adjusted upward to apply percentage relativities and benchmarks through the eight work level descriptors consistent with the ASU draft award and key awards with properly fixed minimum rates.

PN291

For example, the entry points for the four-year degree and the three-year degree graduates are incorrect at level 3(1) - they are at 121 per cent; and 3(2) at 127 per cent. They should be amended to 125 and 130 per cent respectively, consistent with the Metal Trades C(6) and C(5) wage rates. And the award should be converted in accordance with the principles of the Commission in the paid rates decision.

PN292

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So, it is the submission of the ASU that the rates do need review under item 51(4)?

PN293

MR O'BRIEN: Yes.

PN294

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that a point on which anyone else wants to say anything?

PN295

MR MORPHETT: If it pleases the Commission, I just confirm that that is pretty much the informal discussions that we had yesterday with the union. And I think we are in agreement that the rates do require review on the 51(4). There is a variety of different issues which have impact, some of which may not even be able to be dealt with under this application or under these particular proceedings. And so it was with that in mind that we thought that we could avail ourselves of your assistance in conference and with the hope that we can try and nut out pretty common ground so that if there is any particular issue of dramatic concern, that we can lend our combined intellectual capacities to the substantial submissions presently put before you in terms of evidence.

PN296

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Morphett. Mr Jervis or Mr Godfrey, anything you wish to add on the question of whether the rates need review under 51(4).

PN297

MR JERVIS: I do not have anything to add at this stage, your Honour.

PN298

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.

PN299

MR GODFREY: We have nothing to add at this stage also.

PN300

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The written submission of Jobs Australia was that the rates do need review under 51(4).

PN301

MR GODFREY: Yes. And that is still our submission.

PN302

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, it appears to be common ground from what you have said that the rates do need review under 51(4) and therefore if that is the case then in conference we address ourselves to, "Well, how do we do that?" and "What is the outcome?" So, we will adjourn into conference. Thank you.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [10.52am]

NO FURTHER PROCEEDINGS RECORDED

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #ASU1 SUBMISSION IN RESPONSE TO A DIRECTION OF SDP CARTWRIGHT DATED 14/09/01 PN147
EXHIBIT #ASU2 AMENDED TABLE OF WAGE RELATIVITIES TO REPLACE TABLES ON PAGES 5 AND 6 OF ASU1 PN153
EXHIBIT #CONFACT1 DOCUMENT FROM MR DAVID MORPHETT DATED 29/10/01 PN163
EXHIBIT #JA1 SUMMARY RELATING TO VARIOUS SOCIAL AND COMMUNITY SERVICE AWARDS DATED 15/10/01 PN188
EXHIBIT #ASU3 EXTRACT FROM AWARD BY COMMISSIONER O'SHEA DATED 01/12/95 PN202
EXHIBIT #ASU4 TRANSCRIPT OF THE MAKING OF THE SOCIAL AND COMMUNITY SERVICES ACT AWARD 1995 DATED 27/10/95 PN205
EXHIBIT #ASU5 EXTRACT FROM THE ORDER OF COMMISSIONER DEEGAN DATED 08/06/2001 PN207
EXHIBIT #ASU6 DECISION OF COMMISSIONER DEEGAN DATED 08/06/2001 PN217
EXHIBIT #ASU7 ORDER MADE BY SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT ON 13/08/2001 PN226
EXHIBIT #ASU8 SPREADSHEET OF SAFETY NET REVIEWS PN230
EXHIBIT #ASU9 SACS AWARDS COMPARISONS AS OF 2001 AND PROJECTED 2001 SAFETY NET ADJUSTED RATE FOR THE ACT PN235
EXHIBIT #ASU10 SACS AWARDS PRE-SAFETY NET ADJUSTMENT RELATIVITIES TO THE HUNDRED PER CENT TRADES RATE PN239
EXHIBIT #ASU11 CALCULATION SHOWING PERCENTAGE RELATIONSHIP OF THE ACT SACS AWARD LEVEL 3(1) AND 3(2) WITH THE METAL TRADES FITTER RATE PN246
EXHIBIT #ASU12 INTERIM DECISION OF SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT DATED 23/11/2001 PN248
EXHIBIT #ASU13 DECISION OF SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT RELATING TO THE SOCIAL AND COMMUNITY SERVICES INDUSTRY COMMUNITY SERVICE WORKERS WESTERN AUSTRALIAN AWARD 1996 DATED 08/12/2001 PN250
EXHIBIT #ASU14 EXTRACT OF TRANSCRIPT DATED 05/12/2001 PN253
EXHIBIT #ASU15 COPY OF A LETTER FROM MR O'BRIEN TO MR MIKE O'CONNOR DATED 30/11/2001 PN255
EXHIBIT #ASU16 LETTER FROM MR O'BRIEN TO A RANGE OF RECIPIENTS INCLUDING CAROLYN RYAN, STEPHEN NANCE AND MICHAEL PATTY DATED 09/01/2001 PN257
EXHIBIT #ASU17 LETTER FROM LISA SUZANNE HEAP DATED 08/08/2001 PN259
EXHIBIT #ASU18 FACSIMILE FROM ALISON PETERS TO BARRY O'BRIEN WITH A WITNESS STATEMENT ATTACHED DATED 22/07/2001 PN261
EXHIBIT #ASU19 EXTRACT FROM AUSTRALIAN PUBLIC SERVICE AWARD 1998 PN269
EXHIBIT #ASU20 RATES COMPARISON FOR 2001 PN273
EXHIBIT #ASU21 FOLDER SHOWING PERCENTAGE RELATIVITIES FOR FOUR-YEAR DEGREE ENTRY LEVELS AND THREE-YEAR DEGREE ENTRY LEVELS PN279