C2002/1918, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 1685 (17 May 2002)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
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Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N VT03758

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT LACY

C2002/1918

CLUB MANAGERS' ASSOCIATION, AUSTRALIA

and

AUSTRALIAN HOTELS ASSOCIATION

Notification pursuant to section 99
of the Act of a dispute re wages and
conditions - log of claims

MELBOURNE

10.07 AM, THURSDAY, 2 MAY 2002

THESE PROCEEDINGS WERE CONDUCTED BY
VIDEO HEARING IN MELBOURNE

PN1

MR P. COOPER: I appear for the Club Managers' Association.

PN2

MR N. HEALY: I seek leave to appear on behalf of the Australian Hotels Association. Appearing with me by video is MS J. BERGMAN-HANNA from the Australian Hotels Association.

PN3

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you, Mr Healy. Is this Ms Jane Bergman-Hanna on the video, is she?

PN4

MR HEALY: That is correct, your Honour.

PN5

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. All right then. Yes, Mr Cooper. What do you say first of all about Mr Healy's application for leave to appear.

PN6

MR COOPER: I have no objection to the appearance.

PN7

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well. Leave is granted, Mr Healy.

PN8

MR COOPER: Your Honour, I think on the last occasion we were working our way through that exemption issue and there was a fair bit of discussion before the award could move any further.

PN9

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This is on the award certification aspect, yes.

PN10

MR COOPER: Yes.

PN11

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I haven't listed that matter today. I have only listed the dispute notification.

PN12

MR COOPER: Yes, I realise that. What we are seeking today - I noticed the listings downstairs, those three other C numbers have been cancelled and the only matter for contention is the service of our log of claims on the AHA on 17 April and now a subsequent application but before dealing with that matter, I just thought I would bring you up to speed exactly where we left it on the last occasion, on 14 March. The AHA had their national council meeting and their representative informed the Association that they are happy to proceed with the terms as discussed on the last occasion and that we would be looking at an exemption situation similar to the Federal Club Managers Award and the classification structure would be worked on as well.

PN13

With that information, our executive authorised the service of a log of claims and in doing so they also resolved that we weren't interested in having a joint award with the ALHMWU but we were happy to enter into discussions with them to safeguard their interest on behalf of their members. So that was the green light and hence we served the AHA with that log of claims dated 17 April through registered post and it forms the basis for this C number today and we would be seeking from the Commission a formal dispute finding in relation to that matter and the creation of a new Federal Hotel Managers Award. Thank you, your Honour.

PN14

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Have you any parties to that dispute finding, the Club Managers Association Australia and the Australian Hotels Association, is it?

PN15

MR COOPER: That is correct, yes.

PN16

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. It is H-O-T-E-L-S, Hotels Association or H-0-T-E-L-E-S?

PN17

MR COOPER: Sorry, yes.

PN18

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is all right. I just want to make sure there isn't two associations, that is all.

PN19

MR COOPER: No. That is a typographical error there.

PN20

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And the ALHMWU were notified of this or you have had discussions with them about this proposal?

PN21

MR COOPER: Yes, I have had discussions with their National Industrial officer, Neil Swancott, to inform them of our executive's position on this matter.

PN22

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And they have no interest in being a party to this matter?

PN23

MR COOPER: Not that they have indicated. I understand that they have elected not to put an appearance this morning.

PN24

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. All right. And is it proposed then that the - if a dispute finding is made, that the parties would proceed down the course of the previous award as it existed at the time we had or where we had reached in the award simplification process?

PN25

MR COOPER: No, I think that rather than that piecemeal approach, we had prepared a draft document, October, November, last year, which was an attempt to modernise the old award and put in new figures into that. I think the approach now that will be taken subject to some further meetings between the parties, that we are going to short circuit any lengthy process of reviewing the award and modernising it. The document that I am working on at the moment will be a totally new concept of an away with new classification structures and that will be sent to the AHA hopefully next week for them to give consideration to and the next time we appear before you, it will be in a very formal sense, we would be seeking the making of an award.

PN26

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Did you want to say anything else at this stage?

PN27

MR COOPER: No, just that we would like to press the formal dispute finding application before the Commission this morning.

PN28

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, perhaps I should mark the log of claims.

EXHIBIT #CMA1 LOG OF CLAIMS

PN29

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And I think that is all I need to mark. Thank you, Mr Cooper. Mr Healy, what do you say about all that?

PN30

MR HEALY: Your Honour, we have no objections to the finding of a dispute in this matter and I concur with my friend's submissions in relation to the future handling of this matter. Thank you, your Honour.

PN31

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Healy. Is there anything else you want to say?

PN32

MR HEALY: Nothing else, sir.

PN33

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ms Bergman-Hanna, did you want to say anything?

PN34

MS BERGMAN-HANNA: Sorry, no. I can't see you at the moment. No, your - I will stand, will I?

PN35

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Some people will probably say you are very fortunate but anyway.

PN36

MS BERGMAN-HANNA: No, your Honour, we are - obviously Nick is just putting submissions on our behalf so we are happy with that.

PN37

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay.

PN38

MS BERGMAN-HANNA: Thank you.

PN39

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Well, in those circumstances, I do find there is an industrial dispute between the Club Managers Association of Australia and the Australian Hotels Association. They are in fact parties to the dispute and the matters in dispute are those contained in the log of claims marked CMA1 in these proceedings. I will issue my finding some time during the course of today and I direct that the parties enter into conference with a view to resolving the matters in dispute. Now, are there any meetings planned at this stage?

PN40

MR COOPER: Yes, we were discussing that, your Honour. The program will be that within the next two weeks, this draft document will be completed and it will be up to the AHA and their representatives to have time to digest that document. I don't believe there will be anything contentious in it as such and I am going to be extremely flexible to involve myself in a meeting and we have been discussing the location then would be more than likely in Sydney to tidy the final document up. So if you like that is the month of May, I suppose, subject to anything going skew whiff, I would like to think that we would be in a position to come back to come to the Commission some time in June if not sooner.

PN41

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Because my finding of a dispute or the matters in dispute are those matters in the log of claims insofar as the Commission has jurisdiction under section 89A to deal with them and I would ask that the parties take those matters in 89A into - section 89A into account in the course of their discussions, of course, and the development of a draft award.

PN42

MR COOPER: Your Honour, that is what I thought rather than reinventing the wheel, the Federal Club Managers Award has been subject to the simplification process and a further review of those principles under 89A so we have got a template there to work upon.

PN43

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN44

MR COOPER: The real work needs to be done in respect of a new classification to appropriately cover hotel managers and I think that is what the bulk of our discussions will hinge upon so I think we have go that under control. The only matter that probably does concern me that I would be looking for some guidance from either the Commission or the AHA is the paid rates review decision, how we tackle that to satisfy the principles.

PN45

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The minimum rates adjustment, you mean?

PN46

MR COOPER: Yes.

PN47

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, we didn't get round to doing a minimum rates adjustment on the simplified version of the award, did we?

PN48

MR COOPER: No, we didn't.

PN49

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, if you can provide me with the key classification that you are proposing which will be equivalent to the C10 obviously and the internal relativities that you are proposing in the award, then perhaps we can be of some assistance in telling you what the minimum rates should be.

PN50

MR COOPER: Okay. Yes, that would be of great assistance because the original documents we were working on with the AHA, we had simplified the conditions to comply with 89A and the too hard basket was the classification and rates of pay.

PN51

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN52

MR COOPER: And that is why we were going to keep delaying until we spent some time doing a proper classification process.

PN53

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, how long do you think it might before you come up with your classification structure?

PN54

MR COOPER: We are using the other Federal award as a template.

PN55

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Righto.

PN56

MR COOPER: So it is there if you like.

PN57

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, when can you send to my associate, what you say is the key classification in the internal relativities in the other classifications in the award?

PN58

MR COOPER: Probably next week, I would think.

PN59

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right.

PN60

MR COOPER: I would like the AHA to have the opportunity of having a look at the document.

PN61

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Of course, yes.

PN62

MR COOPER: And some time after that.

PN63

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I mean, hopefully I am going to have an agreed position between the AHA and the CMA about what the key classification is and what the internal relativities are.

PN64

MR COOPER: Yes. I think we have moved a long way since 14 March.

PN65

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN66

MR COOPER: And in the last 12 months, I suppose, there have been a lot of side shuffling in respect of concluding these matters but we have some firm views between the parties now and there is no hurdles before us so I can't see any problems of progressing to a new modernised award.

PN67

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. And when you tell me what the key classifications is, you will tell me what that equates to in the existing award. Is that right?

PN68

MR COOPER: I would have to - I haven't given it a great deal of thought.

PN69

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No.

PN70

MR COOPER: That has been in the too hard basket and I would be seeking some assistance in trying to put that into a logical sequence.

PN71

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, do you know what the key classification is in the existing award?

PN72

MR COOPER: No, I don't.

PN73

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No. All right. Well - - -

PN74

MR COOPER: It was before - Vice President Ross did that as one of the initial simplified awards in '96.

PN75

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN76

MR COOPER: And I think it was progressed in a relatively short period of time.

PN77

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Well, you might just turn your mind to that and let me know that situation as well, or identify for me in the existing award what you say the key classification is, and what you say the key classification will be in the proposed new award, with the internal relativities. And should we list this matter then for a report back at some particular time?

PN78

MR COOPER: I would probably - well, I don't think a report back would be necessary. As I have indicated, I think after we do our meeting, that we would like to be able to come to the Commission to indicate, bring it on for formal hearing so we can make an award. So, we are to that stage where there has been a number of report backs in this matter.

PN79

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, how far down the track do you think all that - - -

PN80

MR COOPER: As I just indicated, I think that we would conclude our discussions by the end of May. And I would undertake on behalf of the parties to advise the Commission directly on the status of the negotiations through your associate. And with the consent of the parties, I would then seek a formal hearing of the matter, as I indicated, probably early June or pending no hiccups - - -

PN81

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Whereabouts? Here or in Sydney?

PN82

MR COOPER: Either way it doesn't bother the parties.

PN83

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Your organisation's head office is in Sydney, is it?

PN84

MR COOPER: It is, yes.

PN85

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. How long do you think it might take?

PN86

MR COOPER: The actual hearing to put the award through? I think it would be a reasonably straightforward approach. We would come to the Commission with a consent document, and we would be reporting to the Commission of the outcome of our negotiations and our agreed position.

PN87

THE COMMISSIONER: And subject to me being satisfied - - -

PN88

MR COOPER: That is correct.

PN89

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - that it meets the requirements of section 89A.

PN90

MR COOPER: That is right, yes.

PN91

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Would you be able to provide it to me before the matter - if I listed the matter for 3 June, would that be too early?

PN92

MR HEALY: Sorry, your Honour. I think probably - bearing in mind it is - whilst the parties are negotiating in good faith, you know, sometimes obviously there are - - -

PN93

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN94

MR HEALY: - - - situations where it is - the wheels are slowed down for a variety of reasons. It may be better to actually list it for the middle of June, at this stage, just to give the parties a bit more time, and just in case there are any areas of, you know, still in dispute. It will give the parties a bit more time to sort those areas out.

PN95

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Well, what about 14 June? That is a Friday.

PN96

MR HEALY: I have no objection to that, sir, your Honour.

PN97

MR COOPER: I have no objections either. With the proviso that if matters progress a bit quicker and there is no problems, we would probably like the opportunity to move it forward if at all possible.

PN98

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, I mean, it depends on how much notice you give me about that.

PN99

MR COOPER: Yes, sure.

PN100

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But if you - - -

PN101

MR COOPER: But at this stage we are happy with 14 June.

PN102

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Well, I will list it for Friday, 14 June, in Sydney, at 10 am. Anything else?

PN103

MR COOPER: No, your Honour. Thank you.

PN104

MR HEALY: Nothing further, your Honour.

PN105

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. All right. In that case, the matter is adjourned till 10 am on 14 June.

ADJOURNED UNTIL FRIDAY, 14 JUNE 2002 [10.24am]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #CMA1 LOG OF CLAIMS PN29