C2002/1946, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 1801 (23 May 2002)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N VT03879
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

DEPUTY PRESIDENT IVES

C2002/1946

AUSTRALIAN MUNICIPAL,
ADMINISTRATIVE, CLERICAL
AND SERVICES UNION

and

CHUBB SECURITY SERVICES
AUSTRALIA PTY LIMITED

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the
Act of a dispute re closure of Chubb Security
branches

MELBOURNE

2.01 PM, THURSDAY, 9 MAY 2002

PN1

MR D. LEYTON: I appear for the Australian Services Union in this matter and with me I have the delegates from both the Clayton and Kensington branches of the Chubb organisation.

PN2

MR B. WELSH: With me I have MR L. WALSH, the State Manager of the company.

PN3

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Leyton.

PN4

MR LEYTON: Thanks, Deputy President. The dispute today before you relates to an announcement by Chubb management that they would be closing their Clayton branch. I should say, before we go into those matters though, that we did advise the Commission and also the company late yesterday and also this morning that we would seek to have this matter dealt with under section 170LW and with your indulgence I would just like to perhaps place on record the relevant form for that matter. I understand there is no objection to that from the company but just for the sake of the record I think it will probably be appropriate if we place it on record.

PN5

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thanks, Mr Leyton. I think you will require me to exercise a discretion as well.

PN6

MR LEYTON: I certainly would if that is acceptable, sir, yes.

PN7

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. That is under rule 6. I will exercise a discretion under rule 6 of the Commission, the relief of the appropriate rule regarding the form. Thanks, Mr Leyton.

PN8

MR LEYTON: Thank you, your Honour. As mentioned this dispute relates to an announcement on 3 April by Chubb management to the employees of the Clayton branch that that branch would be closing. I am told that at that announcement a question was asked as to the timing of and the nature of the closure and it was mentioned at the time that it would be roughly a six week period which, from my basic maths, means that that would be roughly next week. I am told now that that may well be longer than the six week period. Suffice to say that that announcement took place on 3 April courtesy of management calling employees into a room, no prior warning to that announcement either to the employees or the Australian Services Union.

PN9

The announcement was made. All employees were told at the time that they would be transferring from Clayton branch to Kensington branch. Just by way of understanding the branches themselves, Deputy President, the Kensington branch is the larger of the two sites. Clayton is the second largest and then there is a smaller operation at Geelong. So it was essentially a case of closing the second largest branch and moving that to the largest branch. Having said that and for the benefit of yourself a little bit of background information to this matter may assist in some way. Chubb, along with its main rival in the industry, Armaguard, are the major players of the cash transport industry as you would probably be aware.

PN10

In recent times the industry has gone through a little bit of upheaval with changes of contract requirements from places such as the banks. They now require cash counted and processed by I think it is 4 am the following morning rather than sometime the next day which means there has been a change in the emphasis on the business to the later part of the day as opposed to doing - - -

PN11

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I recall that came up in another matter I think that was before us, Mr Leyton.

PN12

MR LEYTON: It certainly did, before yourself, yes, the Armaguard matter in recent times. So it is now the standard of the industry that there has been a change in the emphasis on the way the work is done which we understand and whilst we are not necessarily happy with obviously it is the nature of the industry and we will work with that. It has also been fair to say that this is an industry largely made up also of casual employees. Until about 12 months ago at Chubb where the people at the larger branch at Kensington through a dispute that occurred at that time in relation to the negotiation of that enterprise agreement, the people at Kensington transferred their status from casual to permanent part-time.

PN13

It was the view of the parties at that time that at some stage during the life of the agreement that would probably flow on to the people at the Clayton branch as well and they would eventually become permanent part-time employees of the organisation. At this stage that hasn't happened so they are still casual employees. So the people that we are talking about who are going to be subject to the branch closure are casuals and we just need to perhaps mention that for the sake of the record. Perhaps if we move to the matter itself, Deputy President. As mentioned on 3 April the company, without any warning or prior consultation called its employees into a meeting and subsequently informed them of the intention to close the cash room operations within that six week period.

PN14

The fact that this announcement was made without prior warning to the ASU we believe is in contravention of the content and spirit both of the relevant EBA and of course of the parent award. It may be advisable, Deputy President, if I hand up a copy of the settlement of disputes procedure contained in - - -

PN15

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I actually have a copy of both the award and the agreement here so if you just direct me to the relevant pages.

PN16

MR LEYTON: Yes, it is specifically clause 20 of the agreement which talks about the settlement of disputes but to be honest, Deputy President, there are a number of other aspects, a number of other areas of the agreement where it does talk about consultation. There is a consultative committee set up in the agreement that is supposed to meet about things like this and none of that was ever conducted prior to the announcement on 3 April. If you just bear with me one moment I will perhaps point you to that consultative committee clause. That is at clause 18, your Honour, consultative process.

PN17

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The consultative committee presumably from this is a standing committee so there is a committee in existence, is there, Mr Leyton?

PN18

MR LEYTON: There is and it has been a standard committee over the best part of the last couple of enterprise agreements, Deputy President, that has met for the purposes of negotiating the agreements but also met during the life of the agreements for any relevant matters and for obvious reasons, I suppose, we would see this as being one of those relevant matters that could have resulted in the calling of a meeting for that committee. It is also fair to say that in addition to that detail, Deputy President, the ASU is still yet to receive any formal notification from the company that this is in fact going to happen.

PN19

Yes, we have had some meetings subsequent to the announcement but there has been no formal notification of any change within the organisation in a written sense. It is also fair to say that following that announcement ASU members were both shocked and outraged and a meeting of members for the following day was hastily arranged. The ASU in the meantime attempted to get some further information from management but none was forthcoming and it is also fair to say that that of course worsened the situation in the members' eyes about what their future in the organisation was and where it was going.

PN20

We arranged a meeting of members for the following day and they did take some protest action at that time and left the workplace prior to the ending of the shift. As I say there was no further information forthcoming about the nature of the closure.

PN21

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: When was this, Mr Leyton?

PN22

MR LEYTON: This was the day after the announcement, so this was 4 April.

PN23

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: 4 April?

PN24

MR LEYTON: Yes. In that particular meeting, Deputy President, there was some areas, three key areas that was identified by the members as areas that they were seeking resolution on as far as this matter was concerned. If I can I would like to hand you a copy of those three key areas.

PN25

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are you seeking to tender this document, Mr Leyton?

PN26

MR LEYTON: I would, yes, Deputy President, just for the sake of the record so we can - - -

EXHIBIT #A1 DOCUMENT NAMING THREE KEY AREAS FOR RESOLUTION

PN27

MR LEYTON: Deputy President, the matters that were raised as the three key areas that ASU members sought resolution of as a way forward in this matter were I suppose what one would loosely term as the stock standard areas of concern in these sort of situations. The first point was that ASU members wanted choice for employees affected by the closure of the Clayton branch, including relocation to Kensington. So in other words those that want to go to Kensington should be allowed to go to Kensington with a clear and certain understanding of the job requirements and rostering requirements.

PN28

So in other words you don't buy a new car without knowing what you are buying. They wanted some understandings from the company about, you know, what jobs they would be moving into, what rosters they would be on, whether or not they would be, you know, day time workers currently and then moving to graveyard shifts in the middle of the night, that sort of detail. The - - -

PN29

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, Mr Leyton, just before you go on, just forgive my geographical ignorance but where is Kensington in relation to Clayton? I know where Clayton is but I am just not sure where Kensington is.

PN30

MR LEYTON: Yes, it is a good question and I was going to come to that eventually, Deputy President, but it is - effectively Clayton is in the south-eastern, outer south-eastern suburbs.

PN31

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN32

MR LEYTON: And Kensington is essentially right across the other side of town, through town and in the northern area, North Melbourne area. So north of Melbourne, if it helps.

PN33

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN34

MR LEYTON: So it is very much a move from one side of town to the other in the true sense. The second area that ASU members wanted resolved was an agreed relocation allowance for employees making the move from the Clayton branch to the Kensington branch. It is fair to say that that is a substantial move in anyone's language and as we will come to in a few moments could result in anything from an extra 30 or 40 minutes to up to two hours each trip, that is one way, for some of our members and obviously that imposes a great deal of stress on their finances in a number of ways. So we wanted that matter addressed.

PN35

The third issue is something that we have obviously already touched on but that is the issue of voluntary redundancy for employees not wishing to move to the Kensington branch. Now the enterprise agreement does contain at appendix 3 of the agreement the Victorian redundancy arrangements. It even includes an aspect of it that deals specifically with voluntary redundancies and we saw that as being the relevant document to provide in these circumstances. We are not seeking to enhance that particular package in any way, we are just seeking to have that package apply as an issue of choice for the individuals concerned.

PN36

They are the three key issues. There was a fourth matter raised there which comes under the heading of, any other issues or concerns identified by members throughout negotiations, and that was put there specifically because we didn't have a lot of detail at the time about the nature of the closure of the branch and it is fair to say that there is some other issues that have reared their head in the meantime in relation to the closure of the branch that we have some concerns about, the least not being, if I can place it on the record, Deputy President, the fact that the aspect of the redundancy agreement in relation to casuals mentions that casuals must work an average of 24 hours a week to have the redundancy agreement prevail in their case.

PN37

We would seek to get some undertakings from the company that in the weeks that drag on with the Clayton branch open that those employees will not have their hours downgraded thereby avoiding a redundancy situation for them. It is obviously a concern for them and we are talking about employees that have been around the organisation for 15, 20 and plus - - -

PN38

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just direct me where in the agreement it talks about - in the appendix 3, in the redundancy arrangements, where does it actually - - -

PN39

MR LEYTON: Yes, Deputy President, it doesn't actually mention the 24 hour aspect in the appendix 3 rather than in the main body of the enterprise agreement.

PN40

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right.

PN41

MR LEYTON: And I think it, from memory, is at clause 13, Deputy President. If you just bear with me I will see if I can point you directly to that. Yes, I think it is at clause 13(f) where it specifically addresses the 24 hour a week matter. That particular clause closes with the wording:

PN42

For a casual employee to qualify for a redundancy payment should a redundancy arise that casual employee must still satisfy the minimum average hours of work requirement, ie, 24 hours a week.

PN43

As I say we don't want a situation arising where there is a scaling down of the routines at the Clayton branch which will mean that our members thereby fall under the 24 hour average over a period of time. So that is one of the extra issues of concern that we have identified at this stage that we may want to have dealt with throughout these negotiations. Deputy President, from there, once those issues were put on the table for some discussion, the company did agree to meet with us and it is fair to say we have had, I think, three lengthy meetings where discussions have gone around in circles thus far and we haven't made much progress at all.

PN44

We had a brief meeting yesterday which really didn't help us either and it is one of the reasons why we are here today to try and break that deadlock. We can see the time clock ticking. As I say the initial understanding was that it was going to be a six week turnaround and we are nearly at that stage now although we do acknowledge that the company have said it may take longer. So we have a window of opportunity to try and finalise some of these outstanding matters but we don't want it to drag on too long hence the reason for notifying the matter before you. In terms of some of the further detail that is, I suppose, prompting us to seek some of the guarantees that we are seeking in those three key areas, can I just perhaps mention to you that as far as the ASU members are concerned it is our understanding that we have got 32 members at the Clayton branch.

PN45

Of those 32 members they all live in that outer eastern and outer southern suburban area.

PN46

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, is that the sum total of the employee numbers at the Clayton branch, Mr Leyton, or is that just your membership number?

PN47

MR LEYTON: It is our membership numbers and it is the best part of the sum total. In other words there would only be a handful that aren't included in that, Deputy President, and I am not aware of any other employees other than that four or five that aren't members of ours. But essentially the same circumstances apply to them. We are talking about, as I say, about employees that live very much in the outer fringes of the southern and eastern suburbs. In fact it goes one step further than that because a quick glance down at the membership records now sort of reveals that there is people that actually come from the Mornington Peninsula and places like, you know, the beginning of the Gippsland region such as Berwick and Pakenham which is very much an extended trip to the Kensington branch should that be on the table.

PN48

Now the company has made it clear that there is no voluntary redundancy, it will not entertain that idea, and we don't see that as being acceptable. We don't see it as being acceptable alternative employment to ask people to travel 40 minutes to two hours extra each trip to the Kensington site. We also, as I say, have concerns about the fact that these employees haven't been told in real terms what terms and conditions they will be working under, whether or not they will be working, as I mentioned earlier, on the graveyard shifts and the like. In addition to that, Deputy President, the sort of roads that, and I don't want to go too much into the detail at this stage of the merits of the argument because I should have mentioned earlier that we will seek to go into some conciliation with your indulgence at some stage but I am just trying to paint you a picture of the concerns that the members have got.

PN49

The sort of roads that they will be required to travel on don't do much for them either. There is no direct route from the Clayton area to the Kensington area. There is a major arterial road that goes some of the way which is the south-eastern arterial but the problems associated with that is that it means that employees will have to pay tolls that they don't currently have to pay to travel from their current workplaces to the Clayton branch. So there is disadvantages there. Employees that travel by public transport will now have to get two trains to work. There is no bus or tram routes. It is effectively a train. I am reliably informed by one of our members that the train station that she will have to catch the train from was recently the subject of a murder and that doesn't inspire her greatly to want to catch the train to Kensington branch from that particular station, particularly when it is considered that in the large majority of cases she will be doing that either in the very early hours of the morning for a 6 am start or late in the evening for a late finish.

PN50

So that obviously raises a number of concerns in relation to the travel aspect. What we have tried to do is seek from the company some sort of way of making it at least somewhat more attractive for employees to travel the distances I have talked about and that was why the relocation allowance issue was put on the table. In other words we are saying to the company it is a major burden for some of these people that may consider travelling. Let us make it worth their while because for a number of reasons they are going to be out of pocket in terms of the transfer. One of those reasons will obviously be that, you know, there will be a conversion from casual hours to part-time hours if they reach the Kensington branch which means the loadings that they formerly enjoyed will be gone.

PN51

Now they understand accept that, I should say that is not an issue, but it is a consideration. The fact that they will have extra travelling plus petrol, wear and tear on the cars and, you know, tolls on the roads also makes it difficult for them and that is why we have asked for that to be recognised under the guise of an allowance which we have put to the company. So that paints somewhat of a picture of the concerns we have got with the whole relocation issue. We have done some rough numbers in terms of who would be who in the zoo if I could put it that way, Deputy President, and we know that whilst there is some interest amongst the 32 people we talk about to make the move to the Kensington branch there is in a lot of cases no interest whatsoever given the degree of difficulty that I have outlined.

PN52

There is also a third group that are undecided because they don't quite know what they are walking into. They haven't been told what their terms and conditions will be, the jobs that they will be performing there and, you know, it might also assist them to make their mind up if things like a relocation allowance was on the table to make it somewhat more attractive to consider the move. So effectively what we are saying is, to the company, in the meetings we have had thus far is that we want to try and put some issues of choice there for those individuals, whatever category they fall into, and that is the way in which we have conducted our discussions and negotiations thus far and it is, at the end of the day we haven't made too much headway in those negotiation and that is why we are here today.

PN53

To reiterate the three areas that we are seeking some sort of understanding on are those three areas that are condoned in the document marked A1 and that is what we would seek to have resolved out of this matter.

PN54

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. Mr Leyton, of those employees that are currently at Clayton how many of them would meet the 24 hour requirement if there was a redundancy?

PN55

MR LEYTON: I am told all of them at this stage, Deputy President. We have a unique situation and our delegate from Clayton will correct me if I am wrong, we have a unique situation there at the moment where the people we are talking about are working anything from 35 to 40 hours a week as casuals which in any sort of reasonable sense probably makes them very unique compared to the rest of the workforce out there but, you know, obviously we know that will come to an end at some stage. They have accepted that if they did move they would be moving over to the Kensington branch on a part-time basis and that may only be for the 24 hour a week roster but at this stage they are working significantly more than that as casuals at Clayton.

PN56

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And if there was a relocation allowance as you have suggested to the company, have you put a term on that that it should apply for or - - -

[2.26pm]

PN57

MR LEYTON: Yes, thank you for asking, Deputy President. What we said to the company is that we will consider anything in regard to that. In other words if it makes it easier and more attractive for all concerned we would look at an option that was a one-off option or that maybe it is a phased in option over a period of time so that we don't have a situation where someone picks up an allowance and then leaves the week after. So, you know, to make it a win-win situation for all concerned we are happy to look at a range of options in that regard.

PN58

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay, thanks, Mr Leyton. Mr Welsh.

PN59

MR WELSH: Thank you, your Honour. In an effort to expedite things instead of going over the ground Mr Leyton has just taken us over we had a brief discussion this morning with a view to having an informal discussion with you in an effort to establish some guidance from you, if you would be so kind.

PN60

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I would actually be happy to go into conference. What I think I would prefer, Mr Welsh, if I could on the record is if you could just give me some background to the actual set of circumstances that the company is faced with.

PN61

MR WELSH: Sure, okay. I think it is probably, in an effort to address Mr Leyton's concerns, I think I probably need to spell out exactly those areas where he has the concerns and those are the - those items that were marked for exhibit in A1. Point 1 was the choices for employees affected by the closure of the Clayton branch including relocation to Kensington together with a clear understanding of the job requirements and rostering requirements. I just want to clarify one point there. Mr Leyton indicated that there was an understanding that the casual employees would be transferred to Kensington under a part-time arrangement.

PN62

That is certainly not the intent at this stage. Those people who are currently casuals, and permanent part-timers, at Clayton would maintain their current status of employment. So if they are permanent part-timers at the moment they wouldn't be relegated to casual, etcetera, etcetera, nor would the casual employees be elevated to permanent part-time status. I just wanted to clarify that one issue. We have acknowledged that there may be some people with exceptional circumstances. There may be some parental issues or whatever or there may be a number of transport issues. Some people may live in areas where there is no public transport and they don't have a licence.

PN63

We have asked the union to provide us with some special cases in that respect and we will give consideration to all of those. In addition to that we require all of the people that are currently engaged at our Clayton facility to become engaged at Kensington. We are going to need all of those people I am advised. The shifts which are still being determined but in saying that we do have time, your Honour, to work our way through that as Mr Leyton indicated, the initial indications were that it would be a six to seven week period. That is at this stage not the case; we are looking probably early July now so we still do have time on our side and I am confident that we can spend that time wisely if you like, with your assistance if needed, to work our way through it and reach an amicable outcome.

PN64

In relation to point two, the agreed relocation allowance for employees making such a move, the union has made a claim on the company in relation to that respect. There are a number of ways and there are a number of decisions actually made by this Commission in relation to - and I raise the Target case, for instance, which was one which was very very similar and in the Target case I note that the additional kilometres was actually less than what we are requiring in this case so it is probably - there may be some guide there, without wanting to travel over old ground, there may be some precedents already established there that we can draw on.

PN65

In relation to point three, voluntary redundancy, Mr Leyton is right, there is no provision for voluntary redundancies. As I indicated earlier we do need all of the people and so therefore we wouldn't be obviously paying a redundancy package and then re-advertising and re-engaging new employees. But for the purpose of those three issues that is the company's position.

PN66

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, okay. Yes, thanks, Mr Welsh. I think those can be, as you suggested, canvassed further in conference but just while we are on the record the background to this entire circumstance, the closure of the Clayton branch, could you just enlighten me on - - -

PN67

MR WELSH: The reasons why?

PN68

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The reasons why and the process that went forward. Mr Leyton said that there was, if I understood him correctly, in his view not an appropriate level of consultation. So perhaps you could enlighten me from the company's point of view on what happened, why it happened and what you did as a result of it.

PN69

MR WELSH: Okay. I am happy to do that, your Honour, and obviously, you know, somebody had to make a decision and tell somebody and some point in time and obviously if some people hear it before others that is always - there is two parties that had to be notified. Obviously if we - well, we thought we were doing the right thing by calling all the people together and notifying them and giving them advance warning and I would suggest that had it been done another way with a week's notice or whatever to say that one Monday morning that that Friday afternoon it was all going to close, we were very very aware of the impact that this was going to have on people and that is why we give what we see as sufficient notice.

PN70

I can understand that - Mr Leyton's view in relation to maybe, you know, the people were spoken to before the union but my understanding is that we were very very mindful of the fact that once we made the announcement the union would be contacted and they would be in contact with us for the purpose of having discussions which have subsequently proven to be correct. The reason, your Honour, in relation to the closures I guess it is one of what we call ..... is that we are trying to consolidate all of our resources into one area. There has been some losses of some contracts which has given some areas, if you like, that were only utilised in some of our cash rooms which - and the Clayton facility was surplus to requirements if you like.

PN71

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right, and how many people at your Kensington facility, Mr Welsh?

PN72

MR WELSH: About 45 I am advised, your Honour.

PN73

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So in essence this will nearly double the numbers at your Kensington facility?

PN74

MR WELSH: That is right.

PN75

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Thanks, Mr Welsh. Yes, Mr Leyton.

PN76

MR LEYTON: Sorry, Deputy President, if I could just quickly touch on one or two things that were just addressed by the company. Initially I think we heard the company say that they talked about the issue in relation to relocation being a matter of kilometres and I think the Target matter was mentioned. It is not only a case of kilometres, there is a whole heap of other issues in relation to family and the time it actually takes to get onto the roads that will get people to the Kensington branch and it can't always be measured in relation to kilometres. One of the other things that is of great concern to us though that was touched on by the company also is this notion that people will be transferring from Clayton branch to Kensington as casuals.

PN77

Now it is my understanding and certainly the understanding of the delegates at the brief discussion we had with the company yesterday was that everyone would be transferring to the Kensington branch as a part-timer so we don't have two separate sets of rules in the Kensington branch whereby you have got the casuals and part-timers. Now I have got to say, Deputy President, just for your own background that the issue of the people at the Kensington branch transferring to part-time didn't come lightly. It was the subject of major industrial disputation 12 months ago that actually ended up in the Federal Court at the end of the day after a number of hearings here and it would cause a major concern if we had a situation where we had two separate sets of categories of employees at the one branch after all that those people went through last year.

PN78

That is why there was a genuine understanding by the people at Clayton that they would eventually be moving to part-time work and that is why we have asked the question on a number of occasions of the company that should these people transfer to Kensington they will be part-time and the answer we were given yesterday was, yes. Now if the answer is no that sends alarm bells ringing for the ASU and its members because at a fair guess we don't think they actually need as many employees as what they are saying they do. The people on the right-hand side of me here, the delegates, are telling me clearly that the machines they have got there to operate now don't require as many people as what the company are saying they do.

PN79

I don't fully understand the machinery but I am told they are whiz-bang operations that will belt things through at a great rate of knots. Having said that, if the employees arrive from the Clayton branch as casual employees and in time our thoughts prove correct and there isn't enough hours for them that will then send them below that 24 hour limit that we talked about earlier, thereby ensuring the company avoid a redundancy situation in the future for those employees and that is a concern for us. So I put it no higher or lower than that but that would be one of those classic issues in relation to point 4 of the document we handed up marked A1. So I will just leave it at that, Deputy President.

PN80

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, okay, thanks, Mr Leyton. I will adjourn into conference, thank you.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [2.35pm]

RESUMED [3.22pm]

PN81

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I intend to direct the parties into discussions on this matter. To some extent the substance of those discussions is already outlined in exhibit A1, however the areas that I would like the discussions to cover I think a threefold. First of all it is in respect of the reasonableness of the offer of alternative employment and there are a number of things, I think, that need to be given consideration to under that heading and those things would be the distance obviously between the two places, the direct distance between Kensington and Clayton, but it needs to go beyond that and to look at accessibility and that would include modes of transport and means of people being able to get from one place to the other readily.

PN82

The reasonableness of the offer would also go to the nature of the work and to whether there are substantial variations between the nature of the work that is being asked of people in their current circumstance compared to what will be asked of them in the new circumstance and quite obviously also will go to the question of terms and conditions of work and specifically in respect of hours. Now whether or not a redundancy is an appropriate circumstance turns upon to a very large extent the reasonableness of the offer which is why I am stressing that that is such an important area of discussion for the parties.

PN83

The parties should also discuss the appropriateness or otherwise of an allowance if it is believed that there is sufficient disability involved to warrant such an allowance and the third area for discussion which, from the amount of concern that it engendered in conference I think is a critical area is the basis upon which people will be employed at Kensington. That is, their employment status, either casual or permanent part-time, and it seems to me that on what little discussion we have had on that to date that at least the vast majority of people currently at Kensington are employed under permanent part-time status as opposed to a casual status for the majority of people at Clayton. So that is a subject that I think needs to be canvassed at some length within those discussions.

PN84

Those discussions should take place at mutually convenient times over the next fortnight. For my part I will list this matter for report back on Monday, 27 May, at 10 am in the morning and to the extent that there is no resolution of any or all of the issues between the parties then at that particular time I will give directions to the parties for further hearing and ultimately determination of the matters that remain in dispute. For the company's part there has been an undertaking given that there will be no diminution of current hours worked such that it would take people who are currently above the 24 hour cut off point in respect of casuals being eligible for redundancy payments to below that level.

PN85

And presumably, although I hadn't canvassed it prior to this, but presumably that undertaking would apply until this matter is finally resolved or heard and determined by this Commission. Is that - - -

PN86

MR WELSH: That is correct, your Honour.

PN87

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. I am not sure there is anything else. Is there anything you wanted to add, Mr Leyton?

PN88

MR LEYTON: Thanks, Deputy President. Other than just to confirm two other points that I think we did discuss which was briefly that the delegates would be paid for attendance here today and, secondly, that the company will facilitate report back meetings to members as a result of today's hearing for - perhaps if we can suggest Monday and Tuesday of next week.

PN89

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Mr Welsh, did you - - -

PN90

MR WELSH: If I could respond to those. Yes, I have no issue in the payment for the delegates to attend this conference. I think it is very important to ensure that they are kept up to date and up to speed in relation to the events. In relation to the report back I would just ask that in consideration of that that we go through this process in a dispute free environment and that those meetings be held at a time that doesn't disrupt the business. There are certain peak times that we do require all hands on deck if you like and there are other more suitable times for those meetings to be held and I would ask that they be held on those days and those times, if I could.

PN91

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, and I would ask that the union be conscious of those requirements and act accordingly.

PN92

MR LEYTON: We would certainly give those undertakings, Deputy President, other than to say that we would want to have the meetings on the days where people are actually at work as opposed to the days where it is quieter and there is not as many people around. I put it no higher or lower than that. We just want to make sure that most of our members are there the day we have the meeting. That is why we are suggesting the Monday or the Tuesday which I think is the peak days but we will be mindful of the times to ensure that the work flows accordingly.

PN93

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Just a final point. In the event that there is a full resolution of this matter to the extent that the parties see no particular need to maintain the hearing date on the 27th I would appreciate it if that can be conveyed to my chambers and we can abandon that particular date. I am not sure that that seems all that likely at the moment but to the extent that it occurs I would appreciate that courtesy.

PN94

MR LEYTON: Okay.

PN95

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: On that basis I will adjourn these proceedings. Thank you.

ADJOURNED UNTIL MONDAY, 27 MAY 2002 [3.30pm]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #A1 DOCUMENT NAMING THREE KEY AREAS FOR RESOLUTION PN27