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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 4, 60-70 Elizabeth St SYDNEY NSW 2000
DX1344 Sydney Tel:(02) 9238-6500 Fax:(02) 9238-6533
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT HARRISON
C2001/4549
STATE RAILWAY AUTHORITY
and
COMMUNICATIONS, ELECTRICAL,
ELECTRONIC, ENERGY, INFORMATION,
POSTAL, PLUMBING AND ALLIED SERVICES
UNION OF AUSTRALIA AND ANOTHER
Notification pursuant to section 170LW of the Act
for settlement of dispute re industrial dispute in
relation to claims for improved wages and conditions
for Electrical Systems Operators, SCADA Technicians and
Protection Technicians at the Electrical
Operating Centre, Sydney
SYDNEY
10.05 AM, THURSDAY, 16 MAY 2002
Continued from 15.5.02
Hearing continuing
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Carcary.
PN1725
MR CARCARY: First up I might take the opportunity to report on Mr Markowski.
PN1726
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN1727
MR CARCARY: WE have been in touch with Mr Markowski. He is available next Wednesday and Friday. Every other day is taken up with medical appointments of one sort of the other. In the weeks following that he is involved available mostly at this stage, any day but Thursdays.
PN1728
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, I've looked at my diary for next week and I can't accommodate those days but I can Wednesday 29, so subject to any other matters that arise today, it is likely that this matter will be adjourned until that time.
PN1729
MR CARCARY: Thank you, your Honour. I might call Mr Stephen John Durbidge.
PN1730
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think you will need to either take an oath or affirmation today Mr Durbidge because I think you were released on the last occasion.
PN1731
MR DURBIDGE: I believe so.
PN1732
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. I think at that stage - - -
PN1733
MR DURBIDGE: I took an oath.
PN1734
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: - - - we were not entirely - yes, we weren't sure you were coming back so we need to administer it again.
PN1735
MR DURBIDGE: Okay.
PN1736
PN1737
MR CARCARY: Mr Durbidge, you have previously appeared in this matter and given evidence in relation to an affidavit sworn by you on neighed February, is that correct?---Yes, 2002, yes.
PN1738
You have been called today to give evidence on affidavit that you submitted on the 25 day of March?---Yes.
PN1739
Do you have a copy of that with you?---Yes, I do.
PN1740
You would like to submit affidavit of Mr Stephen John Durbidge, dated 25 day of March, 2002.
PN1741
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That affidavit has a number of annexure. They are numerous. I don't propose to identify each of them in transcript. A copy was served on your, Mr Woods, was it?---Yes, your Honour - Commissioner.
PN1742
For the purposes of at least attempting to ensure that you have the same document that I intend to mark, the first annexure is the duty statement, the last is an employee pay advice for the 16 - for the period ended 16.3.2002. If at some stage you - just to ensure that the version you have is the same as that which will now be marked, I'll just let me associate know, will give you access to it. That statement of Mr Durbidge, together with the annexure will become exhibit CEPU6.
EXHIBIT #CEPU6 STATEMENT OF MR DURBIDGE WITH ANNEXURE DATED 16/03/2002
PN1743
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I notice sometimes you are referred to as "Mr Durbridge" and sometimes "Mr Durbidge". What is correct?---Durbidge. There's no "r" in the "bidge".
**** STEPHEN JOHN DURBIDGE XN MR CARCARY
PN1744
Well, I think the first statement might have an "r" crept into it?---It is a common problem.
PN1745
Yes?---You can stand there and spell it out to people and they still put the "r" in and when you ask them to remove the "r", they - - -
PN1746
You are the same person who swore the first statement?---Yes.
PN1747
All right. Thanks. Mr Carcary.
PN1748
MR CARCARY: Thank you, your Honour. Mr Durbidge, in your affidavit of 25 March, on page 4?---Yes.
PN1749
In the middle paragraph, there is some hand-written words?---Yes, there is.
PN1750
Are those your words?---Yes, they are my words, and that is my - - -
PN1751
Just - - -?---initials.
PN1752
Just for clarity, what do those words say?---AC, current and voltage.
PN1753
Similarly, (b) on page 11, there is some hand-written notes?---Yes, there is.
PN1754
Your notes?---Yes, they are.
PN1755
Could you please clarify the intent or those and what the words say?---The additional ones are: in addition to the extra responsibilities outlined in the position descriptions submitted on 15/2/2001, for new positions yet to be endorsed and implemented by SAR as per verbal agreement of 7.12.2000.
**** STEPHEN JOHN DURBIDGE XN MR CARCARY
PN1756
In your affidavit you talk about some back pay that was owed and say that there were no calculations made. Is that correct?---Yes, I did.
PN1757
Have you since made calculations?---Yes, I have.
PN1758
PN1759
MR CARCARY: Your Honour, I hand those up to the Commission for completeness rather than for any examination.
PN1760
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, but just remind the relevance of this matter.
PN1761
MR CARCARY: There was a wage adjustment - - -
PN1762
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN1763
MR CARCARY: - - - made for Mr Durbidge, an amount of back pay was owed. When Mr Durbidge had signed this affidavit, that back pay amount had not been calculated - - -
PN1764
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see.
PN1765
MR CARCARY: - - - completely. Those are Mr Durbidge's calculations of outstanding amounts.
**** STEPHEN JOHN DURBIDGE XN MR CARCARY
PN1766
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Still outstanding?---There's still - by my calculations there would still be an amount outstanding - not - for $76, by my calculations.
PN1767
I understand. This matter you have raised with appropriate pay office, have you?---I haven't. I've only just done the calculations literally.
PN1768
All right?---I've just realised that and I've just submitted it.
PN1769
Okay. Yes?---I will be doing that.
PN1770
Yes.
PN1771
MR CARCARY: I have nothing further at this stage, your Honour.
PN1772
PN1773
MR WOODS: Mr Durbidge, just to clarify that point. I think you tailed off in that sentence, you will be submitting that calculation to the pay office to have it cross checked?---Yes, I will.
PN1774
Mr Durbidge, in regards to page 8 of your 25 March affidavit?---Yes, I have it.
PN1775
Right, and you talk there as you did on the last occasion that you were here about an meeting on 7 December attended by Mr Dwyer and others?---That is correct.
**** STEPHEN JOHN DURBIDGE XXN MR WOODS
PN1776
Right, and we had a discussion about position descriptions that were prepared following that meeting?---Those four new positions - - -
PN1777
Yes?---Yes.
PN1778
I think that - I will have to paraphrase a little bit on last occasion you went through an exercise in February to prepare some position descriptions and you agreed with those at the time?---I agreed that I would do them if we were renumerated, yes.
PN1779
Sorry, I - what I meant was, agreed on the content of the position description?---If the new positions were implemented - - -
PN1780
Yes - - -?---we had agreed to do the extra responsibilities as outlined to get the agreed outcome which was to have parity with the SCADA technicians as agreed.
PN1781
All right. Can I just show you a document of the position description? I don't know if I showed this to you on the last occasion. That's a position description. It's got a date for your position as Senior Electrical Protection?---Yes.
PN1782
Then you've got a slash, Metering Technician?---Yes.
PN1783
It's got a date prepared of 9 February 2001?---Yes.
PN1784
That's the position description that you were talking about that you had reviewed as properly describing the additional position, initial duties that were proposed?---If we were to do them, yes.
**** STEPHEN JOHN DURBIDGE XXN MR WOODS
PN1785
Yes and then Mr Griffin was at that meeting in December, 7 December?---Yes, that's correct.
PN1786
You discussed with him that position description?---We - well, after Mr Ern Dwyer suggested that that would be the way to obtain an outcome that would still be relative to the SCADA technicians as they were about to have a review. We - - -
PN1787
Sorry, my question - I didn't mean to cut you off too short. I just want to get to a simple point. You discussed that document with Mr Griffin?---No, it didn't exist at the time, not in December.
PN1788
No. That document there is dated 9 February?---That's correct.
PN1789
There's your signature?---Yes.
PN1790
I think it bears Mr Griffin's signature?---It does.
PN1791
You discussed that document with Mr Griffin prior to you signing it?---Yes.
PN1792
In the process of having that position description reviewed it was left with Mr Griffin to pass it up the chain for that review to be done. Is that right?---Yes.
PN1793
Mr Griffin understood the basis upon which it was being put forward?---That's correct.
PN1794
Could I just have that back? Your Honour, it may be convenient at this point just to tender a bundle of documents that relate to this issue and from State Rail that the track - what happened in respect of this review which we've had some evidence before and rather than leave it to a later occasion I thought it might be appropriate to deal with it at this stage.
**** STEPHEN JOHN DURBIDGE XXN MR WOODS
PN1795
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Have you got a copy for Mr Carcary?
PN1796
MR WOODS: The tender consists of a memo from Mr Griffin to the Manager, Train Operations, dated 15 February 2001. There's a position description for the electrical protection/metering technician position dated 9 February 2001, a senior electrical protection/metering technician position description dated 9 February 2001, a memo from the Manager, Train Operations to the Employee Relations Manager dated 19 February 2001, a letter from the Industrial Relations Adviser to the Employee Relations Manager dated 6 March 2001 and a memo from the Acting Human Resources Manager to the Manager, Train Operations dated 21 March 2001.
PN1797
MR WOODS: Mr Durbidge, commencing at page 3 of your March affidavit, about two thirds of the way down you have a reference to Mr Simpson states - at point 48?---Yes.
PN1798
Do you see that reference point?---Yes, I do.
PN1799
You go on over the bottom of that page and the next page and the top of the page after to describe some technical differences in the way a couple of these units operate?---That's correct.
PN1800
While there may be some technical differences in the way they operate, the essential point is that they perform the same function, don't they?---They do perform the same function but the way they do it is different. So it's using a different technology.
PN1801
That's predominantly dealt with within the units themselves. It doesn't require interference by yourself for that function to be completed?---Well, there is a OPTO isolator which is external to the unit which would require us to have some matter with.
**** STEPHEN JOHN DURBIDGE XXN MR WOODS
PN1802
Yes, but that's a point at which you would interact to get some information from that system. Is that right?---I don't quite understand what you're getting at.
PN1803
You said that there was this other unit that you would - - - ?---It's a transfer unit. It converts the voice frequency of the relay into optic, or light pulses, to transfer it down a fibre optic cable.
PN1804
As part of your maintenance and review work you would just be seeing that that's operating properly?---As a general rule - well, as with most systems we don't have to touch it unless there's a fault on the system. If there's a fault on the system then we have to look at it.
PN1805
To look at it you use some of the diagnostic tools that you've got?---Well, we don't have diagnostic tools at the moment to test these.
PN1806
So you're not testing them at all?---Well, we're not testing them at the moment, no.
PN1807
You don't know what tools you would require?---Not as yet.
PN1808
Thank you. On page 5, a third of the way down, you have a reference again to Mr Simpson's affidavit at point 49 and then subsequently to point 13 in the two paragraphs down?---Yes.
PN1809
If there is a fault in the system - - - ?---Yes.
PN1810
- - - you can get a report that there is a fault, can't you?---A report as in - - -
**** STEPHEN JOHN DURBIDGE XXN MR WOODS
PN1811
You can get information delivered from the system to you to indicate where there is a fault and what that fault is. Is that right?---There would be a - generally if the alarm system's working there'll be alarm generated that will be picked up by the operating centre.
PN1812
When you go down to inspect you will again have the equipment to identify a fault with you and you can know what that is from that inspection. Is that right?---Well, that's what we do generally. We check everything out and determine where the fault is. That's part of our job to identify the fault, no matter where it is.
PN1813
That's been part of - regardless of that 9 February document, that's an existing part of your job, isn't it?---For the existing relays.
PN1814
Checking where the fault is, yes?---Yes.
PN1815
On any other relays it's to be expected to be part of your job?---That we would determine where the fault is, yes.
PN1816
Yes. Nothing further, your Honour.
PN1817
PN1818
MR CARCARY: Mr Durbidge, if I can take you to your affidavit on page 5?---Page 5, yes.
PN1819
The role of protection technicians is to maintain the network's high voltage protection relay systems and identify protection equipment requiring repair or adjustment?---That's correct.
**** STEPHEN JOHN DURBIDGE RXN MR CARCARY
PN1820
What does repair entail?---Well, repair entails actually determining, through a process of analysis, what piece of equipment is actually faulty and if we can actually repair it on site then we will repair it on site. If we can't repair it on site we will replace it with - hopefully we'll have a system spare, put a system spare in, take it back and if it needs repair by the manufacturer, then we will arrange for the manufacturer to repair the equipment. If we can repair it ourselves then we will repair it ourselves.
PN1821
What does adjustment mean?---Well, adjustment just means recalibration of equipment. It might be just a basic - or with the translay system, if the pilot resistance changes, the monitoring system that monitors the pilots can get out of adjustment. It's just a matter of readjusting the monitoring system to monitor the pilots to what their actual state is. There's probably no fault at all. It's just a matter of the recalibration of the equipment.
PN1822
What tools do you use to perform that work?---Presently we use basically multimeters - multimeters being voltage metres and current metres or amp metres and stuff and we also use an insulation resistance tester to test the actual integrity of the pilots being used to make sure that there's no faults in the insulation or anything like that along the line.
PN1823
How did you learn what tools and knowledge you needed to maintain and repair these relays?---The knowledge was actually basically - I acquired as a junior, or in the lower rank of the protection grade and I was - it was explained to me by the senior technician, basically a father to son sort of process.
PN1824
If you go to point 48 on page 4 of your affidavit - sorry, page 3 of your affidavit?---Point?
PN1825
Point 48, "Mr Simpson states," at point 48?---On page 4.
PN1826
Page 3?---Page 3, "Mr Simpson."
**** STEPHEN JOHN DURBIDGE RXN MR CARCARY
PN1827
Yes?---Sorry.
PN1828
Where you talk about the new Siemens protection relays?---Yes.
PN1829
Has anyone explained to you what tools you need to maintain or repair those relays?---No.
PN1830
Nothing further, your Honour.
PN1831
PN1832
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, the only remaining witness is Mr Markowski and we've spoken about him earlier. Is that right?
PN1833
MR CARCARY: No, we have Mr McGregor.
PN1834
PN1835
PN1836
MR CARCARY: Mr McGregor, did you submit an affidavit in relation to this matter on the 22nd day of February?---Mine's dated the 24th of the 3rd.
PN1837
On the front page?---The front page, sorry, this particular copy doesn't appear to be dated.
PN1838
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Perhaps I'll show Mr McGregor the one that was filed. It's signed on the 25th but on the front page it refers to 22 February but the affidavit was signed on the 25th. Is that copy the one that you're referring to, Mr Carcary?
PN1839
MR CARCARY: Yes, your Honour.
PN1840
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, okay.
PN1841
THE WITNESS: That's correct, sorry, your Honour.
PN1842
PN1843
MR CARCARY: Do you agree that that's the affidavit sworn by yourself, Mr McGregor?---Yes, it is.
PN1844
Do you also agree, Mr McGregor, that on the 25th day of March you submitted a further affidavit in relation to this matter?---Yes.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR XN MR CARCARY
PN1845
The CEPU would like to tender the affidavit of the 25th to the Commission.
PN1846
PN1847
MR CARCARY: If I can take you to the first affidavit, Mr McGregor, page 1 at the very top, you say that the electrical system operators 10 per cent pay increase for managing the Kiama Dapto electrification. On what basis do you believe that you have a claim for 10 per cent?---Basically under the functional agreement of 2000 the Kiama Dapto extension wasn't covered. There has been an increase in productivity because of this extension in our opinion. There's been no additional staff employed and so we feel that we're entitled to claim remuneration under the functional agreement 7.11.
PN1848
Is the physical size of the extension the only issue?---The physical size is part of it but it's not the entire issue. There are a number of differences. The equipment on the Kiama Dapto line is Siemens equipment, it's the only area that that particular type of equipment is installed. Also that particular area is prone to storm activity, also it's close proximity to the ocean has an effect on its maintenance which is directly proportionate to us.
PN1849
How long have you been an electrical system operator?---Electrical system operator, 16 years.
PN1850
If I can take you to the second affidavit that you put in, dated the 25th?---Yes.
PN1851
Has this affidavit made any rebuttal of evidence produced by ..... ?---It is, yes.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR XN MR CARCARY
PN1852
Nothing further at this stage, your Honour.
PN1853
PN1854
MR WOODS: Mr McGregor, your position is as an electrical systems supervisor?---That's correct.
PN1855
So that in your 16 years you had started as an operator, did you?---I've been a system control supervisor for approximately 10 years.
PN1856
Ten years - - - ?---Of the 16.
PN1857
And before that - prior to that you were?---A systems operator.
PN1858
A systems operator?---That's correct.
PN1859
In one of the two grades that have existed for a long time?---That's correct.
PN1860
Now, essentially, the job that you do is monitoring the status of the electoral system and responding to changes in it and being part of re-routing and arrangements when there is a problem, or if there is some planned work?---That's correct.
PN1861
That is in simple terms?---Yes, yes.
PN1862
Now, you said in respect of the Como Dapto line that there is Siemens equipment down there?---That's correct.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR XXN MR WOODS
PN1863
Now, if there is a problem in that equipment, or in the system on that line the electrical centre will get an alarm of some description going off, is that right?---That's correct.
PN1864
Then, your job will be to respond to that alarm?---Yes.
PN1865
By - attempting to identify what the alarm is if you can - and then taking appropriate action to inform somebody about it?---Well - - -
PN1866
Depending upon what the problem is?---Depending on what the problem is, we will take basically immediate action.
PN1867
Yes?---And again - once again, depending on the problem we would contact staff whoever is - relevant staff - to cover the problem.
PN1868
Across the rest of the network there is different manufacturer's equipment?---Yes, that's true.
PN1869
Your response to a fault in Siemens equipment is of the same nature as your response to a fault in any other equipment, isn't it?---It is, yes, to a degree.
PN1870
Well, it is totally, isn't it?---It is, until we have staff on-site and then in that case we are, within reason, to give some guidance to the staff. Now, if we can't do that what I'm saying is we basically - we have to know the equipment.
PN1871
Do you know about the way in which every piece of electrical equipment in the system operates?---No, I don't.
PN1872
If there is a piece of equipment somewhere out in the system that has a fault, you can't give detailed directions to somebody on what to do about something if you don't know about it, can you?---Not if I don't know about it, no.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR XXN MR WOODS
PN1873
Right so, again, Siemens equipment is in the same boat as other equipment on the system?---No, because over the 16 years that I've worked there and worked in the field as field operator, I have a certain amount of experience and knowledge of the equipment.
PN1874
So you have built that up over the 16 years of doing the job?---Well, I built it up over 24 years of doing the job, yes.
PN1875
Right, and in particular the 16 years in the operating centre?---With the equipment it's probably more outside, rather than in the office.
PN1876
Right, so your experience with equipment dates back then, predominantly to equipment that was there more than 16 years ago?---That's correct.
PN1877
So if there had been any other changes in installation, you are not as familiar with that equipment, are you?---Yes, I am, actually. We are given a day out, approximately once a month, although we haven't had that opportunity over the last few months, to examine equipment. The last day I had out I went to Kiama substation, there was new air brake switches installed there and myself and the training officer went there to examine the manual operation of that equipment, so that he could complete writing out the operation of that equipment.
PN1878
Prior to going there you didn't know detail about how that system operated?---Not that particular air brake, no.
PN1879
No. Have you been down to look at some of the Siemens equipment?---No, I haven't had the opportunity, unfortunately.
PN1880
Right, but you expect you will?---I certainly hope so, yes.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR XXN MR WOODS
PN1881
Then, you would be in the same position as you were for that last piece of equipment?---That's correct.
PN1882
You have annexed to your affidavit of February 2002 a memo from Mr Griffin, who is assistant control engineer?---Yes.
PN1883
You will see there that Mr Griffin thinks that there has been a 2.5 per cent overall increase in responsibility - the line after the dot points?---Yes.
PN1884
You respect his opinion?---I do.
PN1885
Now - - - ?---Although that doesn't mean I agree with him.
PN1886
Right, I didn't ask you if you agreed with him. I asked you if you respected it?---I do respect his opinion, yes.
PN1887
Now, the rail electrical network is quite extensive going down to Como up to Newcastle?---Yes.
PN1888
Out to the west - I won't put a bounty on that - - - ?---Wallarah/Wyong.
PN1889
Wallarah/Wyong. The Gosford to Newcastle line - - - ?---Yes.
PN1890
- - - is a line that faces significant storm activity?---It does.
PN1891
More activity than Dapto Como?---I couldn't say that at this point in time.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR XXN MR WOODS
PN1892
Right - - - ?---Because obviously Newcastle - sorry Hornsby to Newcastle area is a much older area. We've got more information on that particular area so at this stage I can't say.
PN1893
There is certainly a lot of storms that cut across that part of the network don't they?---There are, yes.
PN1894
In preparing your affidavit of March you have made some investigations at the Bureau of Meteorology?---That's correct.
PN1895
Then, after having made some of those inquiries you then made inquiries with people who produce the CAT-like diagrams?---Yes.
PN1896
And you have gone back and looked at the Trip problems in the Dapto Como area?---Yes.
PN1897
The only one that you have found is a suspected strong winds problem on 20 March, is that right?---No, that's 20 March. Up until that there may have been. There has since been further problems down there, yes. But according to this at this stage on that - - -
PN1898
That is all that had happened - - - ?---- - - documentation, yes.
PN1899
You haven't conducted a review of the rest of the network to look for storm activated trips, have you?---No, I haven't. It was only the Como Dapto line that's under discussion.
PN1900
That is right. There has been storm activity across the network though in that period since the Dapto Como line started?---Yes.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR XXN MR WOODS
PN1901
And you have had some days where you have had - the centre has been busy with trips caused by storm activity?---This year, or since December, I haven't had - or I haven't personally been involved with a large number of storms, no.
PN1902
All right. Now, Dapto Como came on line when, operationally?---Approximately 12 months ago now.
PN1903
So that the incident on 20 March is the only incident in that 12 months that you have been able to find?---That's correct.
PN1904
In the 12-month period then, have you been exposed to other storm problems elsewhere in the network?---There were other - there have been other trips on the Kiama Dapto line.
PN1905
I'm talking about storm-related trips?---Yes. Now, I didn't actually check the date, though I did check the trip book that we have at work to identify the problem and they've - from what I've estimated, 50 per cent are related to storms, 50 per cent they're unsure of, but they've put down to high winds at this stage. That's the only other information that I have.
PN1906
But you haven't produced that and identified the days and incidents, have you?---No, not in this document, no, I haven't.
PN1907
The rest of the network is exposed - over the summer period in particular - storms?---It is.
PN1908
That cause trips?---Yes.
PN1909
And across the whole network, that is the busiest time, isn't it, for trips with those storm trips - - - ?---November/December and January/February, yes.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR XXN MR WOODS
PN1910
So that it is quite common to get storm-related trips across the network during that time?---Yes, it is.
PN1911
From your 16 years of experience, is there any high points in that, in terms of areas that get tripped?---I would say, no. I would say that the area in general when you're looking at - I'm talking about our entire area - it is fairly even.
PN1912
All right, you don't think that the North Shore and the Hornsby to Newcastle area is busier?---They do cop a lot of heavy rain. There have been some fairly severe storms in the Hornsby area. Two major ones that I can think of but there also have been other storms in the metropolitan area.
PN1913
Across the metropolitan area?---Across the metropolitan area. We've had hail damage, you know, from various previous storms, so it doesn't necessarily - storms are - storms are transient, they could be anywhere.
PN1914
Yes?---There have been storms in the Kiama area that haven't come into the metropolitan area.
PN1915
And there has been storms in the Kiama area that haven't caused any problems, aren't there?---That's true.
PN1916
To that extent, the Kiama area is no worse and no better perhaps than any other part of the network?---For the length of time that it has been in service it hasn't - I haven't personally noticed - there have been trips, but not excessive.
PN1917
No better, no worse than any other part of the network?---No, just more - more - how could I put it - no more than any other area.
PN1918
No?---But then Kiama also has only been in service, as I said, for 12 months.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR XXN MR WOODS
PN1919
For 12 months, that is right?---So next year you might get five or six storms.
PN1920
That would be totally random, according to where the storms were?---I would think so, yes.
PN1921
It might get none?---I wouldn't think so.
PN1922
But you don't know?---That's true.
PN1923
But it is as possible to get - - - ?---That's like having a crystal ball, I haven't got one.
PN1924
Absolutely, absolutely, and we don't many of those around?---No.
PN1925
But it is in the position the same as any other part of the network that it might, or might not get storms?---That's true.
PN1926
In your March affidavit in the second paragraph of it, you take issue with a statement by Mr Simpson in respect of the responsibility for Broadmeadow operating centre?---Yes.
PN1927
You say that it is incorrect and the Prince Alfred extends up to Wyong. You're to Wyong substation, aren't you?---No, I'm actually referring to the entire Broadmeadow area.
PN1928
All right. Well, what is the Broadmeadow area?---Broadmeadow - when the Broadmeadow staff are on duty they control from Wyong to Hamilton and the high voltage feeder to Mossingbrook.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR XXN MR WOODS
PN1929
Right. Is that from Wyong substation that they patrol?---It's actually from the section hut at Wallarah Creek.
PN1930
Right. The power for that area comes from the power station feeder at Ourimbah?---No. Ourimbah feeds Wyong. Awaba feeds the - - -
PN1931
The rest of the - - - ?---- - - the rest of the area and also Hamilton.
PN1932
All right. So the difference that you were raising there with Mr Simpson is a matter of a few substations and huts, is that right?---No, the actual difference that I'm raising is the fact that Mr Simpson has said that we do not supervise that area, when in actual fact we supervise the area 24 hours a day, regardless of whether there is an operator on duty at Broadmeadow. The supervisors are in-charge of the system. There are additional staff brought in between 6 and 10 and 10 and 2 at Broadmeadow and PA to cope with the work loads at those times, but even though the Broadmeadow operator is on duty, the supervisor at PA is still responsible for that area.
PN1933
So you are drawing a distinction between the supervisor and the operators, is that right?---That's correct, yes.
PN1934
So that the - as the supervisor you see yourself responsible for the whole network while you are on duty, is that right?---That's correct.
PN1935
But it is true while there are operators at Broadmeadow, the operators at Prince Alfred don't take on responsibility for that section of the network?---The operators, that's correct.
PN1936
The position for Broadmeadow, that is a 5-day a week operating - - - ?---Monday to Friday - - -
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR XXN MR WOODS
PN1937
Monday to Friday, 6 am to 2200?---Two shifts.
PN1938
Yes, two shifts?---It's 6 till 10, 2 till 10, that's correct.
PN1939
Yes. There is absolutely no question that the Prince Alfred centre is the principal centre, is it?---Not in my mind, no.
PN1940
Now, in the negotiations leading up to the Functional Agreement, you weren't part of the negotiating team representing the operators, were you?---No, I wasn't.
PN1941
I think in terms of delegates you had Mr Phillips and Mr Roberts represented you a delegates for that purpose?---That's correct, yes.
PN1942
Then you had assistance of organisers from the ASU and the CEPU?---Yes.
PN1943
The negotiations that took place resulted in the Functional Agreement was certified?---That's correct.
PN1944
When you say in your affidavit that you didn't think it settled issues, it is because you thought you should still have been paid more, is that right?---I don't know whether - maybe "settle" was the incorrect word - but my understanding is that the Kiama Dapto wasn't covered at all.
PN1945
Your understanding comes from, what, your belief as to what happened?---With discussions with parties, the people that were involved, that's all I could really say in that regard.
PN1946
You were aware back in April/May 2000 that Dapto/Kiama electrification was not far away, weren't you?---I don't think anybody assumed that it would come on as quickly as what it did.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR XXN MR WOODS
PN1947
Yes, but you knew that it wasn't far away?---We knew it was - it was coming up but at what time, no, that was - it was still under construction at that stage.
PN1948
Yes?---So it was - once again, it's a crystal ball thing.
PN1949
To the extent that construction is a crystal ball?---Yes.
PN1950
But you did know that what is known as the New Southern Railway, or otherwise known as the Airport Link was well and truly on the cards?---That's correct.
PN1951
And in terms of size of operations the Airport Link - is that comparable in terms of numbers of units?---I think it is actually smaller.
PN1952
That Dapto/Kiama?---That's correct. Although I can't be sworn on those figures.
PN1953
Now, you say in your March affidavit, the bottom of the first page, you make reference to the Dapto/Kiama modem?---Yes.
PN1954
From the times when you have been on duty is the most common cause of an alarm going off for that area a failure in the modem?---That would be the most common alarm I would say, yes.
PN1955
Right, and from your experience overcoming that alarm has been achieved by the re-setting of the modem?---Not all the time, no.
PN1956
Most commonly?---Most commonly, yes.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR XXN MR WOODS
PN1957
Right, and from your understanding of the operations considering just re-setting the modem - - - ?---Well,
PN1958
- - - is the first activity to be considered?---Quite honestly, I don't understand the operation at all. It's a modem, it is SCADA technicians.
PN1959
There is a wall between you and the modem, is there?---Well, physically - - -
PN1960
No - - - ?---- - - there are several.
PN1961
It is in another room?---Yes.
PN1962
I mean, operationally, there is a wall between you and the modem?---Yes, that's correct.
PN1963
Haven't you gone to switch on the modem when there has been a problem?---I haven't personally, no.
PN1964
No, you haven't - so you haven't switched it on, or re-set it?---No.
PN1965
Have you gone to do it?---I've gone into check what LEDS were indicating.
PN1966
By "LEDS", you mean the lights that are on the face of the modem?---That's correct.
PN1967
Depending upon what LEDS were alight, you would know whether or not the modem has stopped dialling?---That's correct.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR XXN MR WOODS
PN1968
And it is not sending messages?---That's correct.
PN1969
If it is not dialling and not sending messages, then, the most likely cause of the problem is in the modem, isn't it?---No, sometimes - - -
PN1970
Not being connected?---- - - the telephone technicians are working on the lines which affects the replies, so we get no reply alarms. This can last up to a minutes and a half and then they will come good again.
PN1971
How would you know if the technicians are working on the line?---If I look at the front of the modem and the certain LEDS are alight, then, I will wait up to 2 or 3 minutes and if they haven't re-set by then, or within that period of time, then, I will call out a technician.
PN1972
All right. Can I just show you a Trouble instruction No 3515. Have you seen that instruction before?---I can't say I have, no.
PN1973
Right. On the second page there are two pictures - the lower of the two pictures?---Yes.
PN1974
There is a picture of a modem?---Yes.
PN1975
And it has got four of these LEDS lit up?---Yes.
PN1976
It is by looking at those that you can see whether or not the modem is communicating?---That's correct.
PN1977
If the second and fourth are flashing, then it is communicating, is that right?---I'm not sure. I merely compare it with the ones around it.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR XXN MR WOODS
PN1978
Right. So when you go in there to look at it, you see whether or not it is - if you have an alarm go off for the Dapto/Kiama line, then, you will go and look at that modem and see what its status is?---That's correct.
PN1979
And wait for awhile?---that's correct.
PN1980
Have you had a conversation with Mr Simpson about your re-setting the modem?---About me re-setting the modems, I don't believe I have.
PN1981
Right, have you had a conversation about going and doing it yourself and then he saying: don't worry, I'll do it?---There was an occasion I think when Mr Simpson went into the supervisory room. He was a system control engineer at the time and I believe he did re-set the modem.
PN1982
Were you proposing to go and re-set the modem at that stage?---No, he asked me where it was and: did I know what the situation was with them?
PN1983
With the modem?---Yes.
PN1984
Right, and you had not been to look at that stage, is that right?---No, I hadn't.
PN1985
MR CARCARY: Your Honour, could I just maybe through yourself ask Mr Woods if he intends to tender that Trouble instruction as evidence?
PN1986
MR WOODS: I do intend to do so. I can tender it now, or I was going to tender it later while Mr Simpson was in the box, but I've got no problem with doing it now.
PN1987
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You want it?
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR XXN MR WOODS
PN1988
MR CARCARY: It would be helpful.
PN1989
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, it is just that I normally wouldn't have allowed its tender at this stage because Mr McGregor didn't recognise it, but if it is not an issue, we will mark it now.
PN1990
MR WOODS: That is all right, your Honour.
PN1991
PN1992
MR WOODS: Now, Mr McGregor, we talked before about what your main activity was?---Yes.
PN1993
When you first started asking some questions. The position is that apart from planned work and your responding - sorry, the operators in the centre responding to planned work - the other issue that you face is waiting for an alarm, or a fault to go off and to be able to then respond, is that right?---That's correct.
PN1994
So that if there is no planned work and no alarm goes off then you are in a position of readiness just waiting for something to happen?---Yes, that would be true.
PN1995
There are times on different shifts when not a lot does happen?---That's true.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR XXN MR WOODS
PN1996
There are other times when if there's a major storm somewhere there's lots to do?---It's that type of job. It either can be very quiet or it can be at the state where you just don't have enough people.
PN1997
That is right, because it is totally driven by faults?---It's just totally chaos.
PN1998
And that chaos would often be driven by weather?---Yes.
PN1999
Would weather be the prime driver for that chaos?---I would say yes.
PN2000
We had some evidence yesterday in respect of a TV that sometimes is in the operating centre?---Yes.
PN2001
Right and sometimes that TV can be useful for looking at the news and watching reports?---That's correct.
PN2002
Sometimes when it is dull it can be used for watching the cricket?---That's possible.
PN2003
And it happens?---It has.
PN2004
Because when you don't have a fault and planned work you are sitting around waiting for something to happen?---That's correct. Although I must stress that in the quiet times we are expected to check authorities, check WHVIs for upcoming work and we don't just sit around and twiddle our thumbs.
PN2005
But you can get to a stage where there's not a lot happening and there's not a lot to check?---That's true. That's correct. It does happen.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR XXN MR WOODS
PN2006
It does happen. In the ideal world that would be a lot of what would happen because the system wouldn't have any faults happening?---Well, that would be ideally the case.
PN2007
That is right. There has been the discussion in relation to the MITS SCADA system?---Could I just make one point in regards to that television?
PN2008
Yes?---that television was agreed to by management and it was brought in after the Glenfield train disaster because we were getting more information off the media than we were getting feedback from our own people in the field.
PN2009
So in circumstances like that it can be very useful?---Very useful, yes.
PN2010
And other times it can be very useful?---Yes.
PN2011
The MITS SCADA system that has been introduced- - -?---Yes.
PN2012
- - - or at least that has been planned to be introduced- - -?---Yes.
PN2013
- - - your essential duties don't change with that system, do they?---The essential duties don't change; how we go about doing it does.
PN2014
Right. What that system does is it changes some of the methods that you use?---That's correct.
PN2015
Because at one level it moves from a diagram and button exercise to a computer with graphic user interface and soft buttons on the computer for pushing instead of hard buttons on the desktop?---That's correct, and also printouts.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR XXN MR WOODS
PN2016
Right. You, through your work, have become quite used to mouse driven computer applications?---Mouse - we have a PC that we use for reporting system, a mapping system. I'm familiar with that, yes, although that doesn't use a mouse to any large degree. But just a general personal type computer - I'm familiar with that, yes.
PN2017
Right. You don't have any difficulty navigating across a computer with a mouse?---No, I don't.
PN2018
There's no significant difference in timeframe in responding to a soft key on a computer screen compared to a hard key on the current L&N system?---If you're referring to the Logica system there is, yes. There's more functions involved to get the same outcome from - mind you, I've only had a four day training course on this system so I wouldn't be classed as an expert on the system. But there are differences and it will take longer, yes, than the current system.
PN2019
At this stage you are by no means familiar with the MITS system compared to your familiarity with the current Northrup?---That's correct.
PN2020
And as you become more familiar you'd expect to get faster at doing things?---I would think so, yes, as a general rule.
PN2021
Mr McGregor, you refer in the very last line of your March affidavit and annexed at the end of it some salary charts?---Yes.
PN2022
Now, did you source the information that appears on that annexure?---No, there was a working party that was formed to source that information.
PN2023
Right?---And the chart was a result of that working party.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR XXN MR WOODS
PN2024
Did you personally source any of that information?---Personally I spoke to a number of control centre operators in regards to it, yes. But the makeup of that chart was done largely by a working party.
PN2025
Right, of which you are a part of?---No, I wasn't actually part of it.
PN2026
Right?---But we made - a number of people in our office made various inquiries as to comparisons with other control centres.
PN2027
So you can't attest to the accuracy of the amounts on that table?---I personally, no.
PN2028
You have conducted no examination of the terms and conditions of employment of each of those organisations?---That's true.
PN2029
Nothing further, your Honour.
PN2030
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Any re-examination?
PN2031
PN2032
MR CARCARY: Mr McGregor, you have been asked about the new Hornsby to Newcastle area?---Yes.
PN2033
You have been asked about the Dapto to Kiama area?---Yes.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR RXN MR CARCARY
PN2034
Apart from physical location, are there any other differences between those areas?---The main difference with the Kiama Dapto area is its close proximity to the ocean.
PN2035
Why is that an issue for electrical operators?---Well, basically because of the effects obviously of the environmental impact on the infrastructure of that area.
PN2036
Do you know how far it is from Dapto to Kiama?---I believe it's 22 kilometres but I am not sure.
PN2037
Do you know how far it is from Hornsby to Newcastle?---No, I'd only be guessing at this stage, but it would be - - -
PN2038
20 kilometres?---No, it would be a considerable distance more than 22 kilometres.
PN2039
You said in evidence that during the day the supervisor at PA has responsibility for the whole network?---That's correct.
PN2040
And that there are operators on duty at Broadmeadow?---Yes.
PN2041
Is it then correct to say that the operators at PA have nothing to do with the Newcastle district?---No, that's not true. We obviously liaise with the operator that's there in taking out WHVIs or authorities as the case may be. So there is interaction between the officers and any problems that may arise up there, while they have control of it they advise us.
PN2042
But the operators at PA have nothing to do with - - -?---The operators at PA have nothing to do with it, that's correct.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR RXN MR CARCARY
PN2043
You used some initials - WHVI?---Sorry, they're working high voltage instructions issued for the safe carrying out high voltage work on high voltage feeders.
PN2044
So what is involved in repairing a WHVI?---Basically an order is sent in from the depot, whichever depot it may be, requesting an outage on a particular feeder. High voltage instructions are then written up to cover that feeder and any alternate supplies required for that particular day or date. It is then issued, it's checked and if it may happen to cross the areas of control between Broadmeadow and PA then the operating engineer ensures when checking, as well as the supervisor, there's no conflict between the areas.
PN2045
When someone happens out in the field it raises an alarm in the Trouble Office, correct?---Yes.
PN2046
And you will notify maintenance people?---That's correct.
PN2047
And the maintenance people will presumably take some corrective action?---That's correct.
PN2048
Do the maintenance people tell you what corrective action they have taken?---They generally do, yes.
PN2049
How long have you worked in the Trouble Office?---16 years.
PN2050
So over that 16 years you have listened to this feedback from the maintenance staff?---Yes, that's correct.
PN2051
Would it be fair to say that you developed some knowledge of the more common problems that occur in the field?---Yes, that's true.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR RXN MR CARCARY
PN2052
And which particular pieces of plant the problems occur on?---Yes.
PN2053
How do you develop that understanding?---Basically through my previous work experience in the field and the knowledge of the equipment, any new equipment that comes on line, as I said previously, we will endeavour to make ourselves familiar with that equipment.
PN2054
When there's a trip, what is the first priority for the Trouble Office?---A high voltage trip?
PN2055
Yes?---To ensure that supplies are restored, maintain supplies. Not necessarily that much supply, that feeder may be sustained so it's merely that feeder would stay out and then it would be up to us to reconfigure the system to maintain supply.
PN2056
Have you ever had to instruct field staff on how to fix a fault that occurs?---I have, yes. There was an incident with a storm at Hornsby where we had a field engineer in the field doing switching because we had no other staff and he had problems with a NEB switch, getting earths off.
PN2057
..... a system of direct current circuit-breakers, correct?---That's true, yes.
PN2058
What different types of circuit-breakers are there in particular?---Mitsubishi, Ensaldos, BTHs, GEs, there are a number of - and various.
PN2059
So if one of those fails, your response is exactly the same?---From the point of view of being in the office, yes.
PN2060
You were shown a Trouble Instruction 3515. Do you have that in front of you?---Yes, I do.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR RXN MR CARCARY
PN2061
Have you seen that before?---Not to my recollection, no.
PN2062
Can you inform the Commission as to what the process is to write a Trouble Instruction?---A Trouble Instruction is written generally for new equipment. The instruction is generally written by the engineer in charge of that equipment. It's then checked, approved by the operating engineer and then issued to the appropriate people, being a Trouble Office. A Trouble Instruction would be issued to the Trouble Office.
PN2063
So the electrical operators have no input into the Trouble Instructions?---No, that's not correct. There are numerous Trouble Instructions that the operators and supervisors have input into, yes.
PN2064
Are you aware if you had any input or any of your colleagues had any input into this Trouble Instruction?---Not that I'm aware of, no.
PN2065
What is your technical knowledge about modems?---I have one on my computer at home. That's about it.
PN2066
Do you understand what the meaning of the various LEDS that were pointed out to you?---No, I don't understand their meaning.
PN2067
Do you understand the term "off hook" which is the name of one of the LEDS?---No, I don't.
PN2068
Do you understand the term "carrier detect"?---No, I don't.
PN2069
Would it be fair to say, except for the on/off button, you know very little about this piece of plant?---That's correct.
**** PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR RXN MR CARCARY
PN2070
Are you aware that the SCADA staff do not want anyone to reset the modem so they can assess the problem?---Well, I am, yes. I was told that.
PN2071
Do you think if someone reset that modem that wasn't a SCADA technician, it may actually cause the SCADA people some difficulty?---I can't answer that. I don't know enough about it I'm sorry.
PN2072
In your affidavit of 25 March, on the last page, there's attached a chart setting out wages for various classifications employed by various agencies?---Yes.
PN2073
You have already said in evidence that that chart was drawn up by a committee?---That's correct.
PN2074
Do you know why that committee was put together?---My understanding was that Tony Doyle of the Human Resources stated that we were paid in comparison with other control centres that did the same or a similar function and suggested that we carry out our own investigations and so - to see what equivalent rates other control officers in Integral and Energy Australia and various other electrical bodies were paid at.
PN2075
So basically the chart was drawn up at the request of management?---To my understanding, yes, that's correct.
PN2076
Nothing further, your Honour.
PN2077
PN2078
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We might take a 10 minute break now.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.26am]
RESUMED [11.44am]
PN2079
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that all the evidence that you are able to lead today, Mr Carcary?
PN2080
MR CARCARY: Yes, your Honour.
PN2081
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No other documentary evidence you wish to tender?
PN2082
MR CARCARY: No, your Honour.
PN2083
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right. Mr Woods? I'm sorry, Mr Clark, are you leading any evidence?
PN2084
MR CLARK: No, your Honour.
PN2085
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Woods?
PN2086
MR WOODS: Your Honour, could I first of all tender the affidavit of Brenda Joan Ware, sworn 11 March 2002?
PN2087
PN2088
PN2089
MR WOODS: Mr Dwyer, you swore an affidavit in these proceedings on 11 March 2002?---That's correct.
PN2090
Do you have a copy of that with you?---Yes, I do.
PN2091
I tender that affidavit.
PN2092
PN2093
MR WOODS: Nothing further, your Honour.
PN2094
PN2095
MR CARCARY: Mr Dwyer, if I can take you to your affidavit at point 3 on the first page. You say the second page in the attachment of the SCADA system, in response to Mr Porter's affidavit, provides a general description of the SCADA system and the role of the SCADA technician. What has your relationship been with the SCADA technicians in the past?---My relationship is one of overseeing the installation of the new Logica SCADA system by understanding the requirements of a - at an overall level, providing assistance to the project manager from - that's installing the system.
PN2096
Well, what is your actual interface with the technicians?---Not directly, it's one of via the SCADA engineer, Peter Ware, for most of the dealings with it.
**** ANDREW DWYER XXN MR CARCARY
PN2097
If I can take you to your affidavit at point 6 on the second page, the last sentence, you give us a bit of a history lesson about the installation of various types of RTUs, about 5 years ago there - - - ?---I put some approximate numbers in here and these figures were subsequently corrected, thank you very much from Mr Porter's subsequent affidavit, but basically the point I was trying to make is that the majority of RTUs are relatively old RTUs and these have progressively been replaced by more modern microprocessor based RTUs.
PN2098
Were you involved in the process of changing those RTUs over?---Only in the recent 3 years associated with the current Logica, or MITS/Logica contract.
PN2099
Are you aware of any RT microprocessor based RTUs that were installed, approximately 15 years ago?---Yes, I'm aware that there are Foxborough RTUs installed, approximately from that time onwards.
PN2100
At Point 7 in your affidavit, approximately how many of the Logica SCADA - Logica RTUs are there in existence?---There's 15 installed through this contract, then there's one additional one through the extension for the ..... so a total of 16.
PN2101
Could you give us a brief explanation of the difference between the discrete componentary style RTU and a microprocessor based unit?---In a nutshell, the discrete components - all the technology that have individual components, the microprocessors are more of a computer based one, which is, consists of a data and software, to scan the remote inputs and outputs and multiplex those back to the master station. The - - -
PN2102
Could you explain the term "multiplex", I think you used?---The term "multiplex" as applicable a microprocessor one is a process of going through a set of inputs one by one and scanning them and transferring them to a - from a parallel stream to a serial stream.
**** ANDREW DWYER XXN MR CARCARY
PN2103
Do the discrete component to use - perform that function?---They do, but in an older electronic basis, not using a computer transfer of that method, information.
PN2104
So the fundamental difference between the microprocessor unit and a discrete unit? Correct?---The fundamental difference is in essence, the microprocessor doing the bulk of the work, as opposed to a separate electronic discrete components.
PN2105
What software do the discrete component RTUs use?---I'm not aware of the details of that.
PN2106
What software to the microprocessor based RTUs use?---The software supplied by the supplier. In this particular case, Logica.
PN2107
Would it be the same as the software for the discrete component, RTUs?---Almost certainly, not the same software but performing the same function although much more advanced that the microprocessor version.
PN2108
What is the current primary protocol for the SCADA system in use?---The one that is put on watt use is the one called Baker.
PN2109
The new system all year is a different protocol?---The new system is a more industry and modern protocol called DNP.
PN2110
Do you understand the difference between the current protocol and the protocol that is to be introduced?---At a high level, yes, but not with the ability to explain the details of the actual messages.
**** ANDREW DWYER XXN MR CARCARY
PN2111
Would that difference affect the way in which these RTUs are diagnosed?---The protocol is a more modern one. It has got the ability to have additional facilities for doing maintenance. It is a different type of protocol. In my opinion, after some training and experience after a period of time, the new protocol will be just as easy if not more easy to maintain.
PN2112
Could you briefly tell us the difference between the two protocols?---The protocol for the Baker is predominantly a serial based protocol. The protocol for the DNP is a - it is in a IP based protocol. It has got more modern facilities for aero checking and diagnostics but I suppose the protocol is only the way that the RTUs talk back to the main master station. The other issues associated with affecting maintenance is the functionality of the new RTU itself and how it talks through that protocol.
PN2113
Protocol is basically the spine of the system, is it not?---The protocol is a method for which the RTU talks between a slogan and master station. It is just the communications protocol.
PN2114
With not wanting to get too technical, my understanding would be that the protocol is a series of zeros and ones that you used to communicate?---At the lowest level, yes, but the term protocol normally refers to the individual messages that are sent in terms of how they are packetised and sent through the lower level ones and zeros, so it is the next level up on the communications hierarchy.
PN2115
At what level is the Baker protocol?---When you say "level", you are referring to what, an ISO level?
PN2116
No, you made the statement that at the higher level the protocol is about the packaging of information and words. At the lower level it is about zeros and ones, is that correct?---Correct.
**** ANDREW DWYER XXN MR CARCARY
PN2117
At what level do you see the Baker protocol?---From a technical perspective the protocol is really at what is called the day ..... level. It transfers communication through to a physical level which is the modems.
PN2118
Is that a high level or a low level, in your experience?---The Baker is the next lot from the physical level, the protocol itself. That is a higher level than ones, zeros.
PN2119
Right, and what about the protocol that is to be introduced in the new RTUs? Where would that fit on the scale?---Because it is an IP, a based scheme, it is in terms of the international standards model, it is level 2 and level 3. It is a ..... network level.
PN2120
Higher or lower than Baker?---It is a one higher I would conclude.
PN2121
What is your understanding of the technician's role when they visit these RTUs?---It is predominantly fault finding and diagnosing based upon the available information at the site, the faults, whether it is a comp link fault, RT fault or fault inner facing to the RTU and their role is to determine what aspect of that, and initially replace a component or repair the component on site, depending on which RTU it is. The prime objective is to get the - it is and under a fault situation, to get it fixed as quick possible and report back to the ESA.
PN2122
What would be involved generally in doing that?---After they have turned up at site, presumably with some information about what is perceived to be the problem based upon visual information, whatever is available there to determine further the fault and to use whatever test equipment is appropriate for that particular site to further diagnose the fault and then repair it.
**** ANDREW DWYER XXN MR CARCARY
PN2123
Would the test equipment be the same for the old unit compared to the new units that will be installed, the Logica units?---I presume that they will range the full range of test equipment. The newer type RTUs would potentially be different type testing equipment, predominantly more PC lap top equipment as opposed to the older contemporary style RTUs where the test equipment would mostly be oscilloscopes, volt metres, etcetera.
PN2124
So thee is a change?---There is - lap tops used in the Baker equipment as well but I think the diagnostics with the newer equipment would provide a lot of that.
PN2125
Will the technicians be required to commission the logica units?---The technicians under the current contract with Logica are required or have been required to install it and commission those systems. Is that a past or future question?
PN2126
It is a general question?---Well, they have been given that responsibility, yes.
PN2127
So it is perceivable that in the future if there are any more RTUs added that they would also be required to commission?---That is a question that is yet to be determined. Further discussions required on that.
PN2128
In your understanding, are the technicians required to test those units?---Part of the installation process would be a test, that is correct.
PN2129
Will the technician be required to reconfigure the RTUs?---Post the commissioning of them, they may in fact have a requirement to assist with the reconfiguration of those, yes.
**** ANDREW DWYER XXN MR CARCARY
PN2130
If a technician does something wrong with one of the RTUs, what is the effect on the SCADA system?---It depends on what type of thing they do wrong. The worst case if the RTU was inoperable, then any further switching from that location will not be able to be done. I would suspect if the reconfiguration didn't work there would be a back-up plan to revert back to how it was previously configured and that commission of that reconfiguration would be deferred.
PN2131
So if you got it wrong it would be immediately evident?---That's a hypothetical question. It depends on what went wrong.
PN2132
At point 10 in your affidavit you say:
PN2133
When informed of a fault the technician will, in the vast majority of cases be informed of the type of functional fault.
PN2134
What do you mean by that?---The fault will be described from the ESO to the technician. What I was trying to say here is the ESO will give some general description about what the fault is so the technician can know which site to go to and whether it is potentially a full RTU failure, a coms failure or associated failure of one individual bit leading to that RTU.
PN2135
So the technician would be told that before arriving at the location?---Maybe. I am alleging here - in most cases he will be told whether it is a failure of a remote switch or a failure of the whole RTU.
PN2136
Who would inform him of that?---In most cases my understanding is the electrical system operator calls technicians out.
**** ANDREW DWYER XXN MR CARCARY
PN2137
At point 14 in your affidavit on page 38, you talk about the technicians prime activity when arriving at an RTU and they include replacing componentry or processor. In the old RTUs, the discrete componentry type, what is involved in changing those components?---My understanding, and I haven't actually seen it done first hand, the individual components can be repaired and potentially repaired at that particular site. That may involve soldering, configuration of individual bits on the boards as opposed to the newer ones where it is a complete replacement of individual - predominantly complete replacement of individual boards and not changing components on site.
PN2138
So it is not feasible the technicians would be asked to change processes?---My understanding is, for the newer ones, if there is a fault in the new microprocessor boards, it would be done by a complete replacement of the whole board.
PN2139
To rectify a fault, would the technician be required to reconfigure one of the new style RTUs?---That may well be the case.
PN2140
At point 17 you say:
PN2141
The technician will have an increased knowledge base because of the training which they will receive.
PN2142
Are you aware of what training the technicians have received?---I have been briefed. There has been a 4 day course, I believe that technicians have attended. There is also some configuration data courses that have been or are about to be done.
PN2143
Are you aware of the content of those course?---At a broad level, yes.
**** ANDREW DWYER XXN MR CARCARY
PN2144
At a board level, would those courses be similar to a trade course?---No. A trade course goes over a number of years and teaches a whole bunch of basic concepts from start to finish, including a number of different type of systems. This particular course is a course that is limited to 4 days on just this set of equipment with a bit of introductory theory.
PN2145
As you understand it, any tradesman would be able to turn up and complete that course successfully?---The entry requirements for the course that was given was certainly to have some basic trade course with some experience. Whether all of the technicians completed the course successfully, is a matter that is being discussed in terms of the acceptance of the course and the suitability of the course.
PN2146
Do you know what the make-up of those courses is?---As I mentioned, at a broad level I've seen the ..... and I've seen their contents, I can't necessarily repeat it all.
PN2147
Are you aware of the curriculum for those courses?---As I said I have seen it but I can't repeat it all.
PN2148
Could you maybe give us a couple of highlights?---Introduction to fault finding, various components, how communicated, details on Protocol.
PN2149
So the course goes to the detail of the Protocol?---My understanding is it does, yes.
PN2150
Would it go to the detail of the configuration of these units?---There is a separate course on the data base maintenance which is - I believe it is a period of 5 days which is currently being conducted.
**** ANDREW DWYER XXN MR CARCARY
PN2151
At point 19 in your affidavit, you make the assessment that to equate the knowledge levels which will be required with technicians to those of professional IT personnel would be incorrect. Why do you say that?---The comment was made that there is significant additional responsibilities and skills required. The point I was trying to make there is there is a broad range of depth and breadth of IT skills in general. I gave a couple of examples here. Specific examples of configuration of some parts of the computer network that a normal IT person does in a complicated multi-user environment, in this particular case not required to be done by the SCADA technicians so I was trying to give some examples where other IT professionals have additional skills and responsibilities that the SCADA technicians don't need to have.
PN2152
So do the RTU units operate using Unix?---I don't believe so.
PN2153
Do the RTU units operate using an NT server?---I don't believe so, no.
PN2154
Do you know what they do use?---Referring to operating systems here, they would use a real time operating system that runs on the processor that runs on the board. The exact version of that I do not know but it is predominantly not relevant to the technicians.
PN2155
Why do you say that?---Because it is all built into the micro processor and generally when you are using operating systems, like Unix/NT etcetera, you need to know a bunch of commands how to interface to it but this is an on-board processor and the operation system is not relevant, it is all in-house.
PN2156
So the technicians could be totally blind to the operating system? They need know knowledge about what type it is?---They may have some interest in that but, in fact, I don't even know. I am not sure if it is even, as I said, relevant to maintenance activities.
PN2157
When you say "maintenance activities" do you include reconfiguration?---My understanding it is not relevant for reconfiguration either. There is a menu driven system for up-loading and configuration facilities.
**** ANDREW DWYER XXN MR CARCARY
PN2158
Is there not a menu driven system in Unix?---There is.
PN2159
Is there a menu driven system in NT server?---There is.
PN2160
Nothing further, your Honour.
PN2161
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Woods.
PN2162
MR WOODS: Does Mr Clark wish to cross-examine?
PN2163
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry?
PN2164
MR WOODS: Does Mr Clark wish to cross-examine?
PN2165
MR CLARK: I have no questions.
PN2166
PN2167
MR WOODS: Just taking some questions in relation to the reconfiguring and the menu driven, is that driven out of the lap tops that the technicians have or will have?---The software application can run at a number of paces. I believe it can be run on a lap top, yes. It can be run on a stand alone desktop PC as well.
PN2168
When a technician is required to reconfigure following a fault, do they use the lap top they bring with them to deal with that?---Reconfiguration, there is two types. There one done after a major infrastructure change and one done to reconfigure a new bit of hardware, just the same as an old bit of information, I would expect that would be done through a lap top in that particular case, yes.
**** ANDREW DWYER RXN MR WOODS
PN2169
When you were answering Mr Carcary's questions about reconfiguration, what were you thinking of?---I don't recall what I was talking about because predominantly talking about reconfiguration after faults.
PN2170
That is - you talk about that being a menu-driven exercise. Where does that menu come from?---The data base configuration utility, as far as I am aware, for reconfiguration of the electrical system as a whole.
PN2171
Is that a tool the technician takes with him?---I'm not totally aware of exactly who is doing the reconfiguration of the whole network but it is a tool that is available - is able to be run on a lap top to be transported around.
PN2172
The operating system that is on these RTUs, is that a proprietary system of Logica?---Almost certainly it would be.
PN2173
As a proprietary system, is it capable of anyone else changing it?---Most of the time there is no need to change operating systems as such so no.
PN2174
The potential for reconfiguring occurs on the older style RTUs as well as the micro processor ones, is that right?---That's correct.
PN2175
You were asked a number of questions in relation to the Baker Protocol and its level and also the Protocol to be used the NDP Protocol. Now, from the technician's point of view, that is the system for the messages being transmitted between the RTUs and the master station, is that right?---That is correct.
PN2176
That can be a seamless activity to the SCADA technician?---It is yes,
PN2177
So to fulfil their duties, SCADA technician don't need to interface with the detail of how that Protocol operates?---Not necessarily, no, except when it is false, of course.
**** ANDREW DWYER RXN MR WOODS
PN2178
In the faults they would use diagnostic tools to identify those faults, will not they?---Yes.
PN2179
Are the RTUs designed to deliver up to the technician information about the faults?---The new RTUs are designed to do that, yes.
PN2180
Nothing further, your Honour.
PN2181
PN2182
PN2183
MR WOODS: Mr Greenhalgh, you swore an affidavit in these proceedings dated 11 March 2002?---Yes.
PN2184
Have you a copy of that affidavit with you?---I have.
PN2185
PN2186
MR WOODS: Mr Greenhalgh, can I just take you to paragraph 4 of your affidavit and go to the third-last line on the first page and there's a sentence there about occurring:
PN2187
Since establishing the points-to-grade table it has been used for salary, setting salary ranges for other positions in SRA following evaluations using the CED system.
PN2188
Have you been involved in any of those?---Yes, I have, Mr Woods.
PN2189
And what ones have they been?---Train controllers, telecommunications technicians, operations inspectors, network operations, superintendents and many others.
PN2190
Right and so they are the technician-based ones, is that right?---Some of them are, yes.
PN2191
Right. Yes, nothing further, your Honour.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XN MR WOODS
PN2192
PN2193
MR CARCARY: Mr Greenhalgh, do you recall attending a meeting around July 2001 attended by Mr Roberts, Mr Difilippo, Mr Durbidge and joined later on by Mr Simpson?---I can't specifically recall it, Mr Carcary, but go on please.
PN2194
At that meeting Mr Durbidge raised an issue of the discrepancy in the rate of pay for the senior protection technician rate. Are you aware of that issue?---I'm aware of the rate of pay for the senior protection technician as opposed to the other technical grades, yes.
PN2195
What do you believe the relativity between those two grades are?---Between the senior protection and what other grade?
PN2196
And the protection technician?---The protection technician reports to the senior protection technician. One is a supervisory position that has additional responsibilities above and beyond the normal protection technician's position.
PN2197
Is there a relativity in money terms between the senior protection technician and the protection technician?---The senior protection technician is on a higher rate of pay than the protection technician.
PN2198
Do you have knowledge of what the difference between the remuneration for the senior technician and the technician is?---Yes, I can refer to my affidavit if I may for a moment.
PN2199
Yes, you may?---If we look at page 14 on the left-hand side of the table at the bottom it shows you the current rates of pay for both the electrical protection technician and the senior electrical protection technician. There's a salary range for the protection technician of 44,341 to 44,886 and similar rates for the senior protection technician, 49,808 to 51,858. They are current rates of pay.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2200
Are you here today on behalf of the State Rail Authority?---I represent the State Rail Authority, Mr Carcary, yes.
PN2201
Is it the State Rail Authority's position that that relativity is appropriate?---State Rail maintains that there is a difference between the two grades. We've gone through a process of evaluating positions and that evaluation outcome demonstrates there is a difference.
PN2202
Has that evaluation process also been carried out on the SCADA technicians and the senior SCADA technician?---Yes, Mr Carcary.
PN2203
And what was the outcome of that points evaluation?---The points evaluation delivered the same outcome. That's the most recent evaluation. Prior to that there was a minor difference.
PN2204
So the system used by SRA shows that the SCADA technician and the protection technician are of equivalent value?---In terms of work value points, yes.
PN2205
Does that also apply for the senior SCADA technician and the senior protection technician?---Could you repeat the question please?
PN2206
Does the evaluation also show that the senior SCADA technician and the senior protection technician equate to the same level?---In accordance with the Mercer Report, yes.
PN2207
Do those pay rates for the two groups, being SCADA technicians and protection technicians currently align in dollar terms?---No.
PN2208
Do the dollar figures for the SCADA technician and the protection technician equate currently?---No.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2209
Is SRA proposing to address this issue?---SRA has in fact addressed the issue in terms of reviewing the positions, coming up with a result which demonstrated that the work value of those respective positions remains virtually the same as when it was done by Mr Lee in May in the year 2000.
PN2210
If I can take you to your affidavit, Mr Greenhalgh, at point 23. You say the parties agreed to a 7.7 per cent increase to the maximum salary rate for senior protection technicians and an increase of 8.2 per cent to the maximum salary rate for protection technicians?---Yes.
PN2211
Was that the original offer by the State Rail Authority?---No, it wasn't.
PN2212
What was the original offer?---My understanding, Mr Carcary, it is explained in paragraph 22 of my affidavit. Protection technicians are arranged between 3.63 and 5.46 and for the senior, that was for the senior, and for the protection technician 5.90 and 10.28.
PN2213
At point 23 you talk about the dispute being resolved on or around 23 May?---Yes.
PN2214
What is your understanding of the resolution of that dispute?---That was a negotiated settlement, Mr Carcary. All parties signed off on that and as a consequence we moved forward with negotiations and the enterprise agreement was subsequently certified.
PN2215
So it was just a straight out negotiated settlement?---Yes, it was.
PN2216
Are you aware of any terms for that negotiation?---Yes, it was an agreement to undertake a review of SCADA technicians' positions which was incorporated in the functional enterprise agreement. There were other terms of course but that was the one relating to - - -
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2217
Do any of the terms of that settlement in relation to the senior protection technician come to mind?---There were no - there's nothing in relation to the protection technicians flowed from that agreement on 23 May.
PN2218
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Can I just ask a question? That agreement is the one consistent with the recommendation of Commissioner Larkin made on 23 May or it is something additional or different to that recommendation?---That was the recommendation of Commissioner Larkin which, your Honour, we incorporated in the functional agreement to pursue that review of the SCADA technicians.
PN2219
Yes. There's no other agreement in addition that I don't have any details of?---There was a handwritten agreement that the parties signed off on in this Commission on 20 May and following on from that we came before Commission Larkin on Monday the 23rd, I think it was Monday or Tuesday the 23rd and she issued that recommendation and the parties obviously accepted that recommendation and we moved forward.
PN2220
Whilst I've interrupted you, may I ask you a question about the comparisons that you were taken to earlier? I think it was at page 14 of your affidavit?---Yes, your Honour.
PN2221
The enterprise bargaining agreement, the final percentage increase was as of 1 April 2001?---Yes, your Honour.
PN2222
Now, what is the relevance then of the column that is titled: current CNA rates effective, on that same date?---Okay. Your Honour, they are the current rates of pay for clerical and administrative grades in the State Rail Authority.
PN2223
Yes. So - - -?---The Mercer evaluations graded positions according to that.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2224
Yes, I understand how they align themselves with the clerical grades. Yes. Just explain then the entry next to, for example, the SCADA technician. There's the existing salary range that is currently paid under the EBA and there's the alignment with grade 6 under the Cullen Egan Dell system. Explain then the other two entries to me?---Your Honour, the first Cullen Egan Dell assessment dual graded the position of SCADA technician as clerk 5/clerk 6. So I've presented the rates of pay applicable to both grades.
PN2225
Yes?---Ms Ware when she did the subsequent assessment in August of last year deemed the SCADA technician to be fitting wholly within the band width range of clerk 6 grade. So if we do that example the SCADA technician at the maximum of the grade attracts 50,837 but if we were to dock the rates of pay that Mercer said was appropriate for that position that person would attract 48,217.
PN2226
But sorry, explain then why there's the two different salary ranges for clerk class grade 6?---There is not, your Honour. The table as I indicated shows the first evaluation which was a dual grade of grade 5 and 6 so I had to present the grade 5 rate but the most recent Mercer evaluation in August 2001 strictly grade 6 and I guess it would have been easier had that been down a little lower but the rate of pay for grade 6 clerk is 45,253 to 48,217. Had we adopted a rate of pay applicable to the dual grading of 5/6 it would have spanned the range 41,000 through to 48,000.
PN2227
Yes. Sorry to interrupt you, Mr Carcary.
PN2228
MR CARCARY: Are you aware of those proceeding before Commissioner Larkin on 23 May 2000?---Yes.
PN2229
Unfortunately I don't have a copy of the recommendation with me, your Honour.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2230
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I'm assuming it is the one that was referred to yesterday and I have a copy of it. It is dated 23 May 2000. If there's - yes, you see the second page of that the recommendation is to be read in conjunction with an in-principle agreement reached on 20 May. If that in-principle agreement is something that was reduced to writing I don't have it. Well, I'm not aware I have it. If I have just perhaps someone could take me to it.
PN2231
MR CARCARY: Whilst we are endeavouring to find that, your Honour, I might hand Mr Greenhalgh a copy of this. Maybe Mr Greenhalgh could provide the Commission with his understanding of paragraph 1.
PN2232
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What is it that you are showing?
PN2233
MR CARCARY: The recommendation of Commissioner Larkin of 23 May 2000.
PN2234
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you?---Yes, if I can go through this, your Honour. The initial salary rates for the senior protection technician and the electrical protection technician were different to what came out and you can see from Commissioner Larkin's recommendation the senior electrical protection technician accepted a reduction in rate of pay from 48,850 at the time to 47,998 and at the same time the electrical protection technician attracted an increase from 41,050 to 41,553 and as a consequence of that that was agreed and signed off and adopted.
PN2235
MR CARCARY: Thank you, Mr Greenhalgh. We've located a document entitled: Agreement 20 May 2000, Electrical Trouble Officers Review of Rates of Pay. It is a handwritten document signed by - - -?---Signed by Mr Bob McKenzie.
PN2236
Mr Bob McKenzie and a Mr Brian Paul on behalf of the CEPU and a Mr Lewecki on behalf of the ASU and a Mr Doyle, the Manager Employee Services State Rail Authority.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2237
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that your only copy?
PN2238
MR CARCARY: It is, your Honour. We will endeavour to get some copies made during the course of the day and provide it to the Commission.
PN2239
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that agreement another agreement again or is that - - -
PN2240
MR CARCARY: It would appear so, your Honour.
PN2241
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, just explain that to me then. What is the practical outcome of that agreement?
PN2242
MR CARCARY: If I may I will read it on to transcript.
PN2243
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN2244
MR CARCARY: It is a handwritten document.
PN2245
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, that might be best.
PN2246
MR CARCARY: Agreement 20 May 2000, Electrical Trouble Officers Review of Rates of Pay:
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2247
The parties agree that an 8 per cent increase will only be paid at the top of the range of the electrical systems supervisor, senior electrical system controller and senior SCADA technician. This increase is not attached to the incremental range of these classifications. 2. The parties agree to adopt all other salary points as proposed in SRA's proposal of 12 May 2000. 3. The parties agree to adopt a broad-banded classification structure covering the senior electrical system controller and the electrical system controller. 4. Progression through the levels of this broad-banded classification will be based on competencies gained and used and staff will be assessed no later than 12 months after the introduction of this agreement. If the required competencies are met progression to the next salary point of the classification will occur. 5. As a consequence of the broad-banding the parties agree that this will lead to a process which may result in staff variations. Furthermore the parties agree to participate in this process. 6. The parties further accept that there is a need to agree on competencies and movements within the structure and signing off per agreement is conditional upon this occurring. 7. This process is to be completed by 31 May 2000. 8. The CEPU and ASU agree to lift all bans pending a planned meeting for 9.30 am on Monday, 22 May when the parties are to develop and agree on the new structure.
PN2248
And then it is followed by the signatories of people mentioned earlier.
PN2249
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN2250
MR CARCARY: If I can take Mr Greenhalgh back to the recommendation of Commissioner Larkin of 23 May. Why was there an offsetting and absorption of approximately 2.2 per cent for the senior electrical protection technician?---It wasn't a deliberate offset. We aligned rates of pay to the pay point system and the normal method of aligning salaries to a pay point system is to take the nearest salary point and that's how that came about as I understand it.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2251
Is it not correct to say that there had been a proposal for a 9.72 per cent increase?---That is correct.
PN2252
And the increase actually received was 7.7?---For the senior, yes. That was volunteered.
PN2253
Was it also volunteered that the senior protection technician take no pay rise at all and that all of the combined increases for both protection technicians grades be given to the protection technician grade?---I don't believe so.
PN2254
Was it desired by the SRA to maintain a grade difference between the senior protection technician and the protection technician?---Yes.
PN2255
Why is that so?---As I previously indicated there are differences between the two grades and State Rail view the senior protection technician provides a supervisory role and provides additional duties above and beyond what the protection technician performs and the evaluation outcomes demonstrate there's a difference in work value based on the position descriptions and separate grades result from that exercise.
PN2256
I take you back to your affidavit, Mr Greenhalgh. At point 24(c) you indicate that the unions and Mr Harper were prepared to review the protection of technicians' salaries. Was that the case?---I wrote to the unions and I conveyed this verbally to Mr Harper and also it appears in writing as well. Mr Harper raised this issue after the negotiated settlement.
PN2257
Did you reduce that to writing, did you, that offer?---I made recommendations that the issue concerning the protection technicians should be looked at.
PN2258
Do you have a copy of your memo of 14 July?---Not with me.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2259
The memo that I'm referring to is actually contained in the affidavit of Mr Durbidge, which is CEPU6 in these proceedings. I might hand a copy to Mr Greenhalgh. The memo appears approximately halfway through the affidavit. I believe it's attachment - - -
PN2260
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I have it.
PN2261
MR CARCARY: You have it.
PN2262
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN2263
MR CARCARY: This is a memo written by you, Mr Greenhalgh?---That is correct.
PN2264
What was the memo about?---Mr Harper raised concerns with the Chief Operations Manager and the day before a meeting was set with the Chief Operations Manager I was asked to have a look at that correspondence and discuss both with Mr Harper and with Mr Barry Camage the concerns that had been raised by Mr Harper as a result of the negotiated settlement.
PN2265
If I take you to the last paragraph on the first page:
PN2266
Accordingly I recommend that the existing anomalies in gradings be rectified and an independent assessment be accepted.
PN2267
Was that done?---No, it hasn't been done.
PN2268
Was that recommendation accepted?---No, it wasn't, but if you go up further it talks about a review of the classification structure of the SCADA technicians be dealt with and then following that:
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2269
We should rectify the grading anomaly with the protection technicians.
PN2270
And that process was intended to be followed.
PN2271
Was intended to be followed. Was it ever followed through with?---The sequence of events was that it was agreed by State Rail to include the protection technicians in the scope of that review looking at gradings of the technicians' grades, along with the SCADA technicians. As I've indicated, the functional agreement provides for a review of the SCADA technicians. As a result of these representations State Rail to agree to include the protection technicians in that review. However, State Rail sought from the unions confirmation that there would be no flow-on effect if the protection technicians were to be included in that exercise and a dollar outcome ensued. This was because the unions, and indeed State Rail, were a party to agreements as were previously put before her Honour and State Rail did not want to get into a situation whereby it would lead to potential flow-on and have the door opened for further claims. Mr Durbidge has mentioned there was a meeting on 12 December. I understand that meeting took place.
PN2272
On page 2 of - - - ?---But there was no feedback from the unions in terms of my correspondence, however, to my knowledge.
PN2273
On page of the memo you talk about the scale of protection technicians participating in fee for service contract work. What do you mean, fee for service?---Look, I'm not an expert in this technical area whatsoever. I'm advised by Mr Harper that there was opportunities for participating in fee for service contract work. These questions should be directed to other people.
PN2274
Well, I'm reading your memo, Mr Greenhalgh?---Yes.
PN2275
What do you mean by - or what do you believe - - - ?---As I understand at the time that the SCADA and protection technicians were participating in fee for contract work but had opted not to do so as a result of this outcome of the negotiated settlement.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2276
Is fee for service contract work of benefit to the SRA?---I can't say.
PN2277
There's been evidence produced in this matter so far about doing work for outside organisations. Do you believe - are you aware of any part of SRA that participates in that type of work, that they do work for other organisations?---Outside the Electrical Operating Group.
PN2278
Outside the State Rail Authority?---Mr Carcary, can you repeat the question please? I'm not sure if you're referring to people within this group or other people outside the group.
PN2279
Does anyone employed by the SRA perform work for other organisations on a fee for service basis?---They could do. I'm not certain but they could do.
PN2280
You have no knowledge?---I can't give you an example.
PN2281
Was this memo signed and endorsed and approved by the SRA senior operations management?---This letter?
PN2282
Yes?---It was endorsed by operations management, yes.
PN2283
Do you know when this memo was signed by the Senior Operations Manager?---Well, Mr Camage signed it on the 14th of the 7th. Mr Smith signed it at a later date. You'll note that it's unsigned - undated - presumably in July.
PN2284
So that memo has been endorsed by the Chief Operations Manager, the Manager, Train Operations and yourself?---That's correct. The delegation to do it rested with the General Manager, Employee Relations.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2285
Was this memo ever forwarded to the appropriate person?---Yes, as I've indicated, and State Rail agreed to undertake a review both the SCADA technicians, as per the enterprise agreements, and sweep the protection technicians into that review.
PN2286
That was endorsed by the - - - ?---The General Manager, Employee Relations, subject to there being a commitment from the ASU and the CEPU that the unions would not be seeking flow-on as a consequence of State Rail's decision to go down that path.
PN2287
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: May I just interrupt there and take you back to page 14? Had that been implemented, the current - and putting to one side any other claim that the EBA may have allowed to be made, but the current rates would have aligned the SCADA technician with the electrical protection technician, in effect the electrical protection technician being paid in the same salary range?---No, your Honour.
PN2288
Well, what does that agreement say? I've just read what the agreement says. I'm trying to understand what the practical implications of it would have been had it been implemented?---Your Honour, had the practical implications - had we adopted the Mercer Cullen Egan Dell dollar rates, both the SCADA technician and the protection technician would be paid commensurate with clerk 6 grade, 45,243 to 48,217.
PN2289
But what this agreement, as I read it, says that there should be an alignment between the senior SCADA technician and the senior protection and if I stay with the senior SCADA technician in the EBA and the senior electrical protection technician, there's clearly a different wage range, salary range?---Your Honour, I'm not aware of which agreement you're referring to.
PN2290
I'm looking at page 14 of your affidavit?---This is a table of rates of pay, yes.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2291
Yes. So had the agreement - had your recommendation in this memorandum been implemented what would the salary ranges have looked like on page 14 of your affidavit?---The memorandum of the 14th of the 7th.
PN2292
Yes?---That's difficult to say, your Honour. If State Rail were to adopt the recommended grading, the protection technician would be paid the rate of clerk 6 grade. Mercers recommended three things. They gave a points value. They gave a grade and they gave a dollar amount.
PN2293
Yes. Forget Mercer. What you were recommending was an alignment between categories of employees in the memorandum of 14 July and I understand that was not implemented?---Yes. We wanted to do this review of the SCADA technicians, complete that and having completed that then look at the protection technicians in that sequence.
PN2294
You go on, Mr Carcary.
PN2295
MR CARCARY: Thank you.
PN2296
If I can take you back to your affidavit, Mr Greenhalgh, once again at point 24(c). You indicate that despite three written requests from yourself that the unions failed to give any confirmation and the issues remained unresolved. Is that correct?---That's my understanding, yes.
PN2297
Was there any response at all by the unions, either verbally or written?---I personally received no written response nor a verbal response. However, a meeting did in fact take place, as you're aware, in response, as I understand, from requests from the staff.
PN2298
At no time did you receive a response from the union about your request?---No.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2299
Do you know why the unions didn't respond?---No, I don't.
PN2300
In your affidavit at point 24(d) you state that an error in Mr Durbidge's pay rate is rectified by SRAs Payroll Division via a memo from Mr Wayne Williams?---Yes.
PN2301
Has that back-pay issue been rectified?---I believe so, yes. I'm aware of Mr Durbidge receiving back-pay. It was handled in two stages, the second stage very recently, whereby, as I've indicated in my affidavit, a variance was detected because the back adjustments weren't taken back to 12 February and that second instalment was paid and was paid in March of this year.
PN2302
If I can take you to point 26 in your affidavit, sorry, point 25. The protection technician and senior technician do not align to the electrical system controller and electrical system supervisor?---Yes.
PN2303
Do you believe that to be the case?---Yes.
PN2304
Do the protection technician grades align with the SCADA technician grades in the Mercer Cullen Egan Dell 2000 review?---Yes.
PN2305
Do you know what the result of the protection technician SCADA technician rating was in comparison to the electrical system controllers grade in the Mercer Cullen Egan Dell review 2000?---Yes.
PN2306
What was the outcome of that, Mr Greenhalgh?---If we go through the grades of the protection technician and the SCADA technician were graded to be equivalent to clerk 6 grade. The senior SCADA and the senior protection technicians were graded to be commensurate with clerk special grade and the electrical systems supervisor was graded to be commensurate with senior officer class 1.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2307
Do the pay rates reflect those Mercer Cullen Egan Dell outcomes?---No, they don't in respect to the supervisor and the senior SCADA technician and the SCADA technician. The rates of pay are above what Mercer recommended in terms of as of today's rates. The protection technicians are slightly different. They're below.
PN2308
Why do the SRA conduct these Mercer Cullen Egan Dell reviews, Mr Greenhalgh?---In this case, Mr Carcary, it was thought - and the parties agreed to go down the path in accordance with Commissioner Larkin's recommendation.
PN2309
What's the purpose of doing these reviews?---The purpose of the reviews as in all cases with job evaluation you need a system to hang your hat on and the Mercer Cullen Egan Dell system is an accredited system. It's used in State Rail and has been used in the organisation for the past 13 years and that's why it's used, to determine grading outcomes.
PN2310
Is it true to say that it is used to set rates of pay?---It does two things. It sets a grade and the rate of pay as per the award is paid accordingly as per that grade in the award.
PN2311
Has the Mercer Cullen Egan Dell evaluated the impact of the introduction of the MITS SCADA on the electrical operators?---The electrical operators' positions were assessed once only in May 2000. There was no request to review those positions under the exercise undertaken by Ms Ware.
PN2312
Did that evaluation take into account the Dapto to Kiama extension?---Everything that was put forward in the position descriptions, together with documentation put forward by Mr Griffin was taken into account for the technicians, I assume so, because Dapto/Kiama was alive and operating at that time, or about to.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2313
Were you involved in the negotiations of the Functional Agreement for these employees in 2000?---Yes.
PN2314
During those negotiations do you remember any specific mention of the Kiama to Dapto extension?---No, I don't. That's not to say that it wasn't discussed, but I don't recall.
PN2315
I might hand Mr Greenhalgh a copy of the Functional Agreement as ratified in this Commission by Commissioner Larkin on 4 July 2000.
PN2316
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. How much longer do you think you will be, Mr Carcary, is this a convenient time?
PN2317
MR CARCARY: Probably a little while yet, your Honour.
PN2318
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, we will adjourn to 2.15.
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [1.03pm]
RESUMED [2.15pm]
PN2319
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Carcary.
PN2320
MR CARCARY: Mr Greenhalgh, before we broke for lunch, I asked you a question as to whether you were involved in the negotiation of the Functional Agreement titled: Electrical and Signal Operations Functional Agreement 2000, on behalf of the State Rail Authority of New South Wales?---Yes, Mr Carcary.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2321
Do you have a copy of that in front of you?---I do.
PN2322
Could you please interpret clause 8.4 in that agreement.
PN2323
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you want Mr Greenhalgh to interpret it, or to read it?
PN2324
MR CARCARY: Well, to read it and give the Commission Mr Greenhalgh's view of the meaning of that clause?---Clause 8.4 reads:
PN2325
The parties agree to consult over the life of the agreement on matters involving changes to the organisation, structure, facilities, infrastructure and work performance of electrical and signal operation staff.
PN2326
What do you believe the intent of that clause was?---Consultation, Mr Carcary.
PN2327
Consultation over what?---Over an array of matters which the parties would discuss, structure, facilities, infrastructure, the work performance of staff.
PN2328
What is your understanding of the meaning of the word "infrastructure"?---"Infrastructure" is the facilities for which the group is involved. Infrastructure, the network, PA sitings, anything that - where the electrical operation staff are involved.
PN2329
Would you please turn to clause 10 of that agreement. At point 26 in your affidavit:
PN2330
Salary increases proposed in the Functional Agreement would take into accounts new locations and major and minor system extensions. This is reflected in clause 10.6 of the Functional Agreement.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2331
What would your understanding of "major" and "minor" be, Mr Greenhalgh?---I would say a "major" system extension in this case would be for example the Airport line. A "minor" one, something relatively insignificant.
PN2332
The agreement goes on to say:
PN2333
Additional changes to the system will be considered in future agreements.
PN2334
Is there a future agreement, or has there been a future agreement negotiated?---Negotiations have commenced but they've not concluded.
PN2335
What was the life of the agreement that was negotiated in 2000, Mr Greenhalgh?---This agreement has a life ending 31 March 2002. I draw your - - -
PN2336
And what negotiations have been held with the system operators and the other groups covered by the Electrical and Signal Operations Functional Agreement?---Negotiations have commenced with the Labor Council and all the unions in relation to the next Enterprise Agreement for which State Rail is at an advanced stage and has negotiations. In fact, proceedings - negotiations continue today.
PN2337
So the employees covered by this agreement will be covered by the SRA - - - ?---Correct, Mr Carcary.
PN2338
- - - Enterprise Agreement, currently under negotiation. What has been put forward in those negotiations in terms of changes to the system that have occurred?---The proposed agreement is a generic agreement covering the whole of the State Rail Authority. It doesn't get down to specifics in relation to the electrical operating area.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2339
Are you involved in those negotiations?---I have been, yes.
PN2340
How is it proposed that that new agreement will provide the electrical system operators with a vehicle to claim for any system extensions that they believe have arisen during the life of the current agreement?---I'm sure you'll find, Mr Carcary, there would be a "No Extra Claims" clause. And as I say, all the unions and the Labor Council and State Rail are a party to these negotiations.
PN2341
At 10.6, do you agree that it says:
PN2342
Additional changes to the system will be considered in future agreements.
PN2343
?---Yes, it says that.
PN2344
Do you recall the negotiations at the time, leading up to the making of the 2000 agreement?---Yes.
PN2345
Was there any dispute over clause 10.6 during those negotiations?---There was a lot of discussions.
PN2346
What did that discussion centre around?---The general thrust of State Rail, as in other agreements, as to not have the unions coming to us for every change to the organisation that might occur during the life of the agreement, so the parties agreed that major and minor system extensions would be covered by this agreement. We couldn't crystal ball, I guess, in the future what might, or may not occur.
PN2347
The title of clause 10 reads: Productivity Initiatives?---Yes.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2348
Have those productivity initiatives been delivered?---I imagine a lot of those productivity initiatives would have been delivered. I'm not now currently involved in the operations environment, but the parties have committed to delivering these productivity initiatives and I would hope jointly they have been. It is my understand that that would be the case.
PN2349
Have the productivity initiatives pointed to in clause 10.6 been delivered?---Well, certainly the airport lines is - is running. Extra station lifts is an ongoing thing and I can imagine so.
PN2350
Have the electrical system operators worked cooperatively over the life of this agreement in the introduction of the airport line?---Yes.
PN2351
Can the same be said for the extra station lifts termed "The Easy Access Program"?---To my knowledge, Mr Carcary, there's been no disputation.
PN2352
When this agreement was negotiated, Mr Greenhalgh, do you remember any discussion about the word "major"?---Look, I can't specifically recall, Mr Carcary. I'm not denying it, I just can't remember specifically.
PN2353
Can you recall if the word "major" was inserted to cover the airport line?---It could have been, but given my previous evidence I - I interpret the airport line as a major system extension.
PN2354
Can I take you to clause 7 of the Enterprise Agreement - the Functional Agreement - - -
PN2355
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: May I just ask a question on 10. Mr Greenhalgh, obviously, if it comes down to a question of interpretation in the course of an arbitration, that is my role, but in performing that role it is always helpful to hear the evidence of what led to the insertion of a sentence, or a provision. The second sentence in 10.1, does that mean any more than - it is just an unusual sentence to place - - - ?---That - that's reflected in the handwritten document dated 20 May, I recall, your Honour.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2356
Yes?---And that was in there because we didn't want to state - I didn't want to flag that there would be an outcome in favour of one group over another. We would - we would collaboratively go ahead and do this review, but it doesn't commit the parties to implement any preconceived outcome.
PN2357
Is this harking back really in a way to that memorandum that we were speaking of earlier about whether it was going to be - whatever the outcome of the classification of the - let's say the senior SCADA group -no, I'm sorry, these are both SCADA technicians?---Correct, yes.
PN2358
I'm sorry, I'm returning to the other group comparison?---Yes, it's only SCADA.
PN2359
Yes, I understand, yes. Yes.
PN2360
MR CARCARY: Thank you, your Honour.
PN2361
Could you please provide the Commission with your interpretation of clause 7.1, paragraph 1, that starts:
PN2362
For future agreed productivity.
PN2363
?---Yes. It is a condition of the agreement there will be no further claims for salary increases during the nominal term of the agreement, except for future agreed productivity-based increases arising out of principles contained within this agreement and after - isn't that why we're here today, Mr Carcary?
PN2364
Yes, it certainly is. What is your definition of "productivity", Mr Greenhalgh?---"Productivity" is a positive outcome that the employer would achieve as a result of implementing a change.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2365
Only in implementing a change?---Of there being a positive deliverable as a result of doing something.
PN2366
Would the Dapto/Kiama extension be a positive deliverable?---Well, I believe the Dapto/Kiama - we've got an extension of electrification. Improved services to our customers, that would obviously be a positive outcome for the travelling comfort and for the people of New South Wales.
PN2367
Can I take you then to clause 8.4 in the 2000 agreement. Do you believe that that clause conflicts with clause 7.1?---No, I don't. Many of the agreements contain a clause similar to both 7.1 and 8.4 8.4 reinforces the need for consultation.
PN2368
What would you say the relationship between clause 7.1, 8.4 and 10.6 would be, Mr Greenhalgh?---As I've said, 7.1, is a "No Extra Claims" clause, and sub-clause 1 talks about agreed future productivity. 8.4 is that the parties will consult over the life of the agreement on various changes impacting on organisation structure, infrastructure and the like, and 10.6, is that the last one you asked me to comment on?
PN2369
Yes, Mr Greenhalgh?---10.6, is that the staff would accept coverage of new locations and minor and major system extensions during the life of the agreement, and the agreement provided for a wage outcome in recognition of this and other productivity initiatives.
PN2370
During these negotiations you represented the State Rail Authority, yes?---I was one of the representatives of the State Rail Authority.
PN2371
What was the intent of the State Rail Authority of putting those three clauses in the agreement?---As I've indicated, Mr Carcary, clause 7.1, 8.4 and indeed 10.6 are common to many of our agreements. We wanted good consultation to occur over the life of the agreement with respect that there was a No Extra Claims clause. We didn't want the unions or their members coming to us, knocking on the door during the life of the agreement for additional wage claims.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2372
Did you have knowledge at the time of negotiating this agreement that the Dapto Kiama extension would be placed into service during the life of this agreement?---No, I've previously indicated that. No, I was not aware.
PN2373
What is the priority for the State Rail Authority in its operations, Mr Greenhalgh?---Operation to the principal priorities are threefold, safety, on time running and clean and reliable services for the travelling public.
PN2374
If I may take you back to your affidavit.
PN2375
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: May I just ask a question generally about the EBA, Mr Greenhalgh. In the past, has this group been regulated by its own - - - ?---No, Commissioner.
PN2376
Is this a bit of a break with - - - ?---State Rail saw fit at some stage to embark on a program of functional enterprise agreements. We had some 33 of them and I was involved in more than half of them - - -
PN2377
I see?---- - - so you can imagine, yes, the result of that.
PN2378
And you may or may not then enter into a different form of regulation, namely, this - I don't know how you described it - it wasn't a framework agreement, was it? How did you describe the - the discussions that had commenced?---I just - I called it a generic agreement - - -
PN2379
A generic agreement, I think you - - - ?---- - - an overall agreement, a core agreement.
PN2380
Yes?---A total organisation-wide agreement.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2381
Yes. Well, we don't know what will come out of that but in any event is this existing round - these existing EBAs, even though this one in particulars time expired - was that the first time this functional group was covered by an EBA?---Yes.
PN2382
I see. Yes, Mr Carcary.
PN2383
MR CARCARY: Thank you, your Honour.
PN2384
If I might take you back to your affidavit, Mr Greenhalgh, at point 24, paragraph C, you indicate that:
PN2385
The union has failed to give such confirmation and the issue remain unresolved. Annexed to this affidavit and marked "GRG5", is a copy of the last written request from me to the unions dated 31 October 2000.
PN2386
?---Yes.
PN2387
If the issue was then resolved was there any progress in that issue at all?---I believe there has been progress, Mr Carcary. As I've indicated, there was a meeting on 7 December, a meeting held as I understand it, at the request of the staff. As a result of that meeting Mr Ian Dwyer in the industrial relations area, indicated to the staff that: if the review is to proceed, there would need to be significant changes to position descriptions which would incorporate new duties and responsibilities above and beyond those that were currently worked and, as a consequence of that, the staff were asked to identify those changes and talk with their management and if agreement could be reached, re-vamp position descriptions and put them forward for a valuation, and I believe that path was followed and a valuation was initially conducted by State Rail and, subsequently, at the request - as I understand it, at the request of the staff, an independent assessment was done and that came to fruition when Ms Ware tabled her report in August of last year.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2388
That was despite any reply from the unions?---Correct.
PN2389
Position description arrived - it eventually came to light after 7 December. Was handed up this morning in evidence marked SRA1. The position description is titled: Electrical Protection and Metering Technician dated 19.2.01. Why were you waiting for a response from the unions to the earlier - to your request?---Following my memorandum which has been covered previously, the appropriated delegated offer in state Rail determined that in order for the protection technicians to be covered in the scope of the review, we wanted the concurrence of the union parties to the agreement - that provision being outside the terms of the agreement, to proceed forward with the review on the basis that we would not expect the unions to come forward knocking on our door for a flow on of any outcomes that might arise from that review.
PN2390
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Within those, or external to those? Within those classifications, or external to them?---Within the group. Within the electrical operating group. Bear in mind that salary outcomes were delivered both on the classification structure and the Functional Agreement, and it was also at the time of - your Honour, it was also the time of the Olympic Games, it was a pretty hectic period.
PN2391
MR CARCARY: For us all?---For everyone.
PN2392
Are you aware of the content of that position description dated 19.2.2001?---I have not read it for Mr Carcary. I know that it was produced and I understand that the protection technicians specifically signed off the document because they were satisfied with it.
PN2393
At that time in early 2001, SRA have a concern about flow on?---I can't answer your - I understand though, Mr Carcary, that if we go through the process and have the jobs assessed and that assessment warrants an outcome, then, that would settle that matter.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2394
If I might take you back to the Enterprise Agreement again, Mr Greenhalgh. If you read clause 7.11 and 8.4, with those clauses in the agreement, how could a group of employees claim a productivity improvement?---I - I - I don't know what you're asking me to respond to, how could they?
PN2395
Yes.
PN2396
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't really understand either, Mr Carcary, are you - - -
PN2397
MR CARCARY: At clause 10.6 of the agreement indicates that:
PN2398
The employees should accept coverage of new locations, major and minor system changes.
PN2399
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN2400
MR CARCARY: Is that correct, Mr Greenhalgh?---Yes, but major and minor system extensions and new locations doesn't embrace everything, does it?
PN2401
Unfortunately, I didn't write this agreement, Mr Greenhalgh?---I'm suggesting that that's the case.
PN2402
What would be excluded in that case?---It could be changes from within the electrical operating centre.
PN2403
Such as a change of the system they use to operate the network?---Could be.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH XXN MR CARCARY
PN2404
I have no further questions, your Honour.
PN2405
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Mr Clark.
PN2406
MR CLARK: No, thank you.
PN2407
PN2408
MR WOODS: Mr Greenhalgh, would you consider the Dapto/Como extension to fall within the concept of a major or minor extension?---During the life of the agreement, yes, I'd say that is a major extension, similar to the NSR.
PN2409
Is the expectation in relation to the current generic, or core agreement that has been negotiated that you referred to, that the parties will bring to that discussion the issues which they want to raise in change of work practices, or salary?---Those matters have already been brought to the negotiating table, yes.
PN2410
Just to clarify the position in relation to the 2000 salary dispute and negotiations. There was claims in relation to these officers in relation to salary review, is that right?---Yes.
PN2411
As a consequence of that and the recommendation by Commissioner Larkin, there was a review conducted by Cullen Egan Dell?---Yes.
PN2412
That then was brought back to the parties for the purpose of negotiation?---Yes.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH RXN MR WOODS
PN2413
Negotiations then took place resulting in the May 20 agreement I think you referred to?---Yes.
PN2414
That then flowed to the May 23 recommendation by Commissioner Larkin?---Yes.
PN2415
Then, the matter concluded with the negotiations and certification of the Functional Agreement?---Yes, Mr Woods.
PN2416
In those negotiations was Mr Roberts involved on behalf of the unions?---Mr Roberts was involved from day one, yes.
PN2417
There is nothing further, your Honour.
PN2418
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: May I just ask a question about the extent to which you used the professional advice of Cullen Egan and Dell, and my questions are not peculiar to their evaluation system, there are other well known evaluation systems as well. There are several ways they can be used, but one starts with them being used as an objective method of assessing the relevant value of one job to another - - -?---Mm.
PN2419
- - - within an institution. There's several ways of doing that. One way is ascribing points to it or a range of points but not necessarily the salary ranges which will be, at the end of the day, completely up to the State Rail Authority?---Yes.
PN2420
You might take advice from an outsider as to going rates, market rates, but the outside professional advice is really just putting relative points and assessing the relativity of the value of the jobs - - -?---Mm.
**** GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH RXN MR WOODS
PN2421
- - - and not necessarily also telling you what salary range you should ascribe to those points. Is that how you accept, or how you implement the Cullen Egan Dell advice?---Ms Ware's report doesn't recommend a salary rate. It recommends a grade. The first report did both, Mercer's being an organisation that has done independent assessments for State Rail. We use their system. They participated with us when we originally set the band widths table back in the late 80s/early 90s. In reporting the recommendations, Mr Leeds specified both classification and dollar value attached to it.
PN2422
But at the end of the day, obviously - - -?---We would normally evaluate jobs internally, your Honour - - -
PN2423
Yes?--- - - - but in this case the need to go outside. That is the reason why we did.
PN2424
Similarly, when you arrive at what might be the percentage increases to be reflected, say, in an EBA, that is at State Rail?---Absolutely.
PN2425
Yes, I understand. Any questions arising out of that? No. Thanks, Mr Greenhalgh, you are free to leave - - -?---Yes.
PN2426
PN2427
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Woods?
PN2428
PN2429
MR WOODS: Mr Simpson, your swore an affidavit in these proceedings dated 12 March 2002?---That's correct.
PN2430
Do you have a copy of that with you?---Yes, I do.
PN2431
PN2432
MR WOODS: Can you just turn to page 14 of your affidavit, the diagram headed: Appendix 6, Selected Irregularities, Reporting System. Can you just have a look at this document which I will just show you. The document that I'm showing you is the same one that is in the affidavit?---Yes, but a far more legible copy.
PN2433
A more legible copy. I will just distribute, your Honour, fresh copies of that annexure.
PN2434
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I should just substitute it for Annexure RGS2, should I?
PN2435
MR WOODS: Pardon?
PN2436
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I should just substitute it for the annexure as filed?
PN2437
MR WOODS: Yes, you could just substitute.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XN MR WOODS
PN2438
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, that will be done.
PN2439
THE WITNESS: Mr Woods, I have noted a minor change there on the top line. There's one additional information box.
PN2440
MR WOODS: All right, yes. There is a box on the right saying: Distributor staff, State Rail staff, please advise EOC. Is that the box you are referring to?---It was taken from a draft paper document, the second from the more updated electronic version.
PN2441
I think now that you have raised that, there are a couple of other changes between the documents. Perhaps if I just put it to you. So if you have a look at that document you have looked at just now, does that accurately, to your mind, reflect the reporting system? Have a look over that document?---This is not the current Mapper system but the process by which irregularities are reported is generally as outlined in this document.
PN2442
Yes?---Certainly, it is the process.
PN2443
Your Honour, I propose that it does not really affect the change in the replication.
PN2444
If you turn to page 23 of your affidavit, Mr Simpson, I will just show you another document. Page 23 is a log sheet, number 1115048, for B.S. King and I've just shown you a document that is the same log sheet, is it not, but with the times clearer on the left-hand column?---Yes, that's correct.
PN2445
I just seek to replace that as well.
PN2446
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mine is clear and the copy is filed.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XN MR WOODS
PN2447
MR WOODS: Perhaps you were the lucky one on the photocopying, your Honour.
PN2448
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I think that is right so I won't take it apart. Yes?
PN2449
MR WOODS: I will just show you another document, Mr Simpson. It is a document headed: Train Operations Metropolitan - Engineering Operations. Does that generally reflect the management structure that picks up the operating centre?---Yes, I believe it does.
PN2450
I will tender that?---With a minor amendment occurring since late January.
PN2451
Yes, and what was that amendment?---That being the Signal Operations Unit under Mr Hoynes and the controllers having been transferred to RIC.
PN2452
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, should this be placed somewhere in SRA6 or be marked separately?
PN2453
PN2454
MR WOODS: Mr Simpson, can I just show you a copy of exhibit SRA2, which is a Trouble Instruction 3515. This Trouble Instruction has been approved and issued by you - - -?---Yes, it was.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XN MR WOODS
PN2455
- - - on 12 October '01?---Yes, it was.
PN2456
Where has this particular copy come from?---This would come from the electronic file within the EOC's database of documents, and it is just simply a printout of that particular instruction.
PN2457
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Could you just pause for a moment? Mr Reporter, are you picking up a lot of these acronyms that are being used?
PN2458
THE COURT REPORTER: Yes, your Honour. I'm following up pretty well at the end of each session.
PN2459
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good. With the parties?
PN2460
THE COURT REPORTER: Yes.
PN2461
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, good, thanks. Mr Woods?
PN2462
MR WOODS: Mr Simpson, can you go to paragraph 14 of your affidavit, and at the end of - in the text below the table, the boxed table, that appears there - - -?---Yes.
PN2463
The last sentence?---Yes, there should be a correction in that affidavit.
PN2464
How should that last sentence read?---Well, there are two other officers, a training and a program officer.
PN2465
All right.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XN MR WOODS
PN2466
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I'm sorry, where are you?
PN2467
MR WOODS: In the last sentence in paragraph 14 - - -
PN2468
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN2469
MR WOODS: - - - immediately before the heading: For Handover, to insert after the word, "two" the words "other officers."
PN2470
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN2471
MR WOODS: Then "training" remains, and then the word, "officers" after "training" becomes singular.
PN2472
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. That might be a convenient time for me to ask this question. It relates - well, it really relates to the comments that you make in paragraph 8 of your - not so much the numbers of persons ascribed to the shift, but the numbers overall, paragraph 8, and do you have the EBA with you as well, Mr Simpson?---No, I do not.
PN2473
Would you have a copy of that, page 9, the list of classifications covered by the EBA. The electrical systems controllers, 35 persons, that is the number of persons in classifications in the fourth and fifth dot points?---Fourth and fifth dot point of the - - -
PN2474
Of the EBA, attachment 1 of the EBA, page 9?---It would include the supervisors.
PN2475
Yes, all up, 35?---Generically, it related to controllers.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XN MR WOODS
PN2476
Yes, but the total number of employees engaged in those two classifications - it says, "The Senior Systems Controller in Electric - is 35?---Supervisor, controllers. It would be in that order, yes.
PN2477
Yes. Where are you reading supervisor - - -?---The third dot point.
PN2478
The third, fourth and fifth?---Third, fourth and fifth.
PN2479
Yes, I see?---All in the one category.
PN2480
In the next two categories down, Senior SCADA and SCADA, are the - - -?---SCADA technicians for - - -
PN2481
Yes?---Yes.
PN2482
The next two down?---Protection to - - -
PN2483
Together are two - - -?---Is the two - - -
PN2484
Yes, I understand, thank you?---The senior and the other.
PN2485
MR WOODS: Let us take you to paragraph 15 of your affidavit and you have items on page 4, listed as A to M. You refer to - in the text paragraph at the end of that numbered paragraph, you refer to RGS3, which commences at page 15 of your affidavit. I wondered if you could just go through those documents to give her Honour a brief description about their purpose?---Very good. Starting with F, on page 15, we have a typical example of the daily work schedule. It's an overview of the works that have been planned for the ensuing day or weekend, in this case, 5 March. Within that document, it is broken up
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XN MR WOODS
into three segments, the first dealing with work in the high voltage system relating to working high voltage instructions, WHVIs. The second is planned maintenance within substations, and the third is authorities or 1500 volts work in the overhead wiring traction system.
PN2486
The next page, page 16?---Moving on to G, working high voltage instruction. This is just a sample which is - I can't read the page number, page 16. Page 16 is the front page, 17 the back page of that document. This is just an example for one of the planned activities involving work on the high voltage system such as would be prepared by the programming and the manager of the operational unit, and then checked by the Senior Systems Supervisor or one of the controllers before being implemented, and it outlines there the operational steps in isolation and restoration of the high voltage system to provide safe work access. Item H, the 1500 volt authority for removal, is on pages 18 and 19, being the front and the back portion of that one document. Again, this is just a typical example of an access authority to remove supply based on the working high voltage instruction and electrical safety procedures for a job at West Ryde, Epping. Again, it identifies the necessary switching and the location within which the safe work area may be designated for work to be carried out. Item I, going to page 20, is one of the so-called side sheets used by, primarily, the Senior Systems Supervisor to address issues which arise and which must be communicated from one shift to the next, and maintains a record of many things such as abnormalities of the network and alterations to call-out arrangements. Item J is the checklist for recording the fortnightly checks of fire telephones within the city underground network. Item K is one day's exercise of recording the direct current circuit breaker, the 1500 volt DC system, circuit breakers for the traction overhead wiring. It just identifies time of operations and the operator on desk 3 would normally be recording, monitoring that in the SCADA system, recording it to observe a sequence of operations from which he may ascertain a sustained fault and take appropriate action to lock out the circuit breaker and inhibit its re-close operation. Item L, page 23, we have just amended or addended a new sheet. It is a typical log sheet, in this case from Mr Barry King, Senior Systems Supervisor, for 5 September. It identifies the activity which he has been associated with throughout that shift. The last one, Item M, is an example of an alterations to operations diagram advice. It spells out what changes will be made to the operating diagram and carried out within the network. I think I should highlight here that the document is usually faxed through to the Operations Centre and, in this case, at least 5 days in advance of the date in force. Page 25, the following page, is the mark-up of the operating diagram. I've just referenced to the show/delete exercise from the previous advice. That's it.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XN MR WOODS
PN2487
All right, and on page - just going back to page 24, you drew the date - the fax printout on the top of the page is 4 March '02?---Yes.
PN2488
This is the date when the diagram, which is issued by the Rail Infrastructure Corporation, being sent through to the Operating Centre and then, I think, in the top box, the date in force being 9 March when that change will occur?---That's true, yes.
PN2489
All right. Now, just in terms - continuing going backwards, page 23, you indicated that that would be where Mr King, in this instance, was to have recorded whatever activities he had?---Yes, it may relate to calls, advice, being not only an operational centre, it's also a call centre in terms of where it originates, the name of Electrouble.
PN2490
So that even if there was a call in relation - there are a number of calls there noted as people having - - -?---Arrived at substations. That's correct.
PN2491
- - - arrived at the substation, for example, at 11.23 - call. Another below that, 12.59 is arriving at Epping substation. So when people are notifying him or he takes a call notifying about something having happened?---Yes, and in this case he would have perhaps deactivated the staff alarm or the security alarm for that site and it would also have been flagged up on the mimic diagram to identify staff at the location so that all other operators in the room would be aware of that situation.
PN2492
Going back to page 22, that records all openings over a whole day. So that sheet - - -?---Yes.
PN2493
- - - is collected on a daily basis?---Yes, it is.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XN MR WOODS
PN2494
Going back to 20, do you see on this sample sheet there is a number of typed entries and some handwritten entries?---Typed entries would have been part of their continuing log which is within their operational centre database which the system operators can all access. The handwritten entries would be those relating to the more recent shift activities.
PN2495
Right. So that if someone was coming on to a shift having been there a day or two before, the typed ones on the page would be ones that are expected to be familiar with already?---Yes, that's correct.
PN2496
Do I take it that when one of these issues is solved, that the item would be removed - if there's a problem with it - from the site sheet?---That would be expected, yes.
PN2497
The items on pages 15 through to 19 all relate to planned work. Now, while they - - -?---That's correct.
PN2498
- - - are sample pages, a person coming onto a shift may or may not have planned work coming up on their shift. They may or may not need to refer to one of these documents. Is that right?---I would expect that they would all view the first document - page 15, the overview - as a quick reference to see what jobs may be associated with the day's activity.
PN2499
If there was no activity, there would be no sheet?---There'd be a sheet but there would be no entry.
PN2500
No entry. Then, I think as you said, page 16 is the detail of what has happened for one of those activities?---That's correct. In fact, it relates to the first item for the WHVIs, working high voltage instruction, between 0900 and 1500 hours when it's Gordon.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XN MR WOODS
PN2501
All right?---You'll see the top number, T193, correlating to the reference number in the overview sheet.
PN2502
I take you to paragraph 16 of your affidavit, page 4, second last line, at the end of that line, you refer to two displays on the SCADA system. Are they, the items A and B, at the top of the page?---Yes, that would be correct. The events log and the overview diagram.
PN2503
Now, in paragraph 17 you draw some conclusions and refer to some analysis of incident reports. What is it that you have referred to for drawing that conclusion. What do you mean by the incident reports?---The incident report - we have in fact in item D of clause 15 above, but we didn't conclude an example. We do have within the other affidavits examples of incident reports. In fact, I do have some on page 50 - would be an example of incident reports. So we've looked at incident reports and we've also within the system the need for overtime approvals and the manager of the system control group is required to endorse and approve overtime before the payment would be made by the SRA payroll officer even though it may be claimed on timesheets. So it's basically a second check to ensure that not only is it valid time but it was justifiable. The analysis that I've prepared here was from a review of all of the overtime sheets submitted for a particular period. In fact, I think from July to December 2001. It is referenced in clause 18.
PN2504
I take you to paragraph 28 of your affidavit. Since swearing your affidavit, have you become aware of further information in respect of the Signal Trouble Officers?---Yes, I have.
PN2505
What is that?---The Signal Trouble Officers are still working their 30 minute handover on each shift as a one-man operation, but in fact the coincidence with signal electricians has changed. RICs since January have modified the shift rosters of many of the maintenance personnel such that they have now staggered shifts anywhere from 5.30 in the morning until 9.30, 10 o'clock just to ensure that they have adequate resources available at critical locations through both morning and evening peak periods.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XN MR WOODS
PN2506
Now, you heard this morning Mr McGregor give evidence in relation to the Dapto/Kiama line and the issues that might arise for that because it is near the sea. What is your view in relation to that point?---I would suggest there is no significant impact on the overhead wiring traction system or transmission feeders by its location. We have in fact got other areas for the south coast that have been installed since the mid to late '80s operational anywhere from Balambi, Coalcliff, Coaldale, through that area, which is far more exposed to the ocean seaside elements. I do recall reading Mr McGregor's affidavits where he was suggesting that the painting of the structures was for environmental protection. I could suggest that if people cared to look at the RIC website or major projects, the aesthetic effect, where the community were concerned about the galvanised structures shining and blocking their view of the ocean was the primary cause and driver for painting those structures. The galvanising protection on the structures was the standard method of corrosive protection of the system. So we don't expect there to be any disastrous impacts on the system as it exists and we have had many years of exposure further up the coast.
PN2507
So you would not therefore anticipate that the location of that would have any adverse impact upon the workloads for staff in the operating centre?---None within the operating centre. There is a strategy being adopted by the RIC maintenance service provider from Fleur Daniel and they are currently using BHP chemists to investigate salt deposits within the Kiama tunnel. Now, it is nothing to do with catenary failures or electrical system failure, it is purely a risk management strategy to see whether or not they need to change their maintenance strategy because that particular tunnel is not subjected to rainfall for washing of the surface of the insulators. So it is concern over is there a deposit and they are just trying to investigate it and if there needs to be it will be a change in their maintenance strategy.
PN2508
Do you recall having a conversation with Mr McGregor in relation to the failure of the modem that connects to the Dapto/Kiama system at the Prince Alfred setup?---Yes, I do.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XN MR WOODS
PN2509
What was that?---In my usual late departure from the centre, visiting the control room, there was in fact a failure of the Bombo Communications, the RTU, and in discussion, if I could reflect upon the comment from Peter, it was one of "I am sick of this crap" and was going to proceed out to reset the modem. Now, I intervened on the basis that the other parties present and the passive resistance which existed within the room toward taking on the added function was such that I reset the modem. The first attempt failed, the second attempt it worked and everything was restored.
PN2510
There were no issues for the system flowing from that?---No issues from the system flowing from that.
PN2511
We have heard Mr Durbidge give evidence in respect of the position description of February or June to which he is not working to and reference to metering. Can you explain what that is?---The reference to metering I believe is limited to that of indication metering which is reflected back to the system operator. It is not revenue metering. It is not used for revenue metering purposes and if I read Mr Durbidge's original statements I think it was saving many, many dollars by the accuracies and the order of which they have to reset this metering. It's a nonsense argument. The information is certainly used by the planning engineer to trend those impacts from certain areas. But the order of accuracy of the indication metering would not satisfy the current energy legislation requirements for revenue metering or the Weights and Measures Act.
PN2512
You referred to system operators in that description?---No, system controllers, system operators.
PN2513
Are you referring to energy suppliers in that reference?---To system controllers?
PN2514
Yes?---I'm referring to the rail system operating centre; a generic reference to the system operators or system controllers.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XN MR WOODS
PN2515
Right. So that any information that could be taken off isn't going to impact upon what State Rail pays to the energy suppliers such as Energy Australia?---I don't believe so.
PN2516
And any information about that metering could just be passed to the planning people within State Rail?---The planning engineer has access to the database and reads it directly. He takes the historical data for his needs.
PN2517
So that that metering - any metering activities by Mr Durbidge and the protection technician wouldn't have any impact at all. Is that right?---The impact for the operator is that he can see the instantaneous values of voltage current and there is a trending system available so he could monitor system loads relative to the capacity of that part of the network. Beyond that there's nothing by way of revenue gain or loss.
PN2518
As a result of the second affidavit from Mr Markowski, have you conducted an examination of the daily logs for the supervisor's position for November 2000?---I have.
PN2519
In terms of items entered on the logs during that month, what did your analysis reveal?---We really focused on the - you said the second affidavit?
PN2520
As a result of reading his second affidavit - - -?---May I just reflect on Mr Markowski's second affidavit?
PN2521
Did you look to see how many entries had been made on daily log sheets for that position over the month of November?---I did an analysis in terms of the month of November for all of the number one desk, senior system supervisor.
PN2522
Yes, and did that reveal somewhere in the order of 10 per cent having no activity recorded?---In fact I do recall that.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XN MR WOODS
PN2523
And another 10 per cent had about one activity?---I'm just trying to look through it. I think my affidavit shows a breakup in fact of that, or does it? Certainly it doesn't. From recollection there was some 64 per cent of all log entries for that period had less than five activity entries and there was again nine which had no entry, nine or 10 which had only one entry. But overall 64 per cent had virtually four or less.
PN2524
In terms of when we talked about a log sheet we looked at one that belonged to Mr King a little earlier?---Yes.
PN2525
That is the sort of log sheet that you were looking at?---That's correct.
PN2526
So you have looked at just the total number of entries regardless of what the entry was?---The only entry I've discounted is where they have said, "On duty" in the first line.
PN2527
Now, in Mr Markowski's affidavit of 25 March - it is his second affidavit - do you recall him forming a view in respect of an incident that happened from an irregularity involving Mr Finton and Mr Brookes?---Yes, I do.
PN2528
Mr Markowski's affidavit annexes some documents which he says relate to that. You have looked at that affidavit and those documents?---I have.
PN2529
All right. Mr Markowski has expressed a view that in effect the log sheets and memos concern a communication breakdown at the time of handover clearly showing that insufficient handover time has caused the incident. What is your view in respect of that?---Quite contrary. It is a breakdown of the communication but it is also one where Mr Finton has - and mind you, those two memos from Mr Finton and his following officer were not available to me - Mr Brookes. They were not available to me at the time I first investigated this matter. Mr Finton is alleged to have said he completed the work but while in the process of continuing with the handover, the field staff contacted and it
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XN MR WOODS
is then that Mr Brookes undertook to complete the switching which he had been told was completed and safe to proceed to the next point of issuing access permit to field staff. The fact that Mr Finton did not complete two safe working operational steps within his switching instruction, the WHVI, I believe led to the incident and led Mr Brookes to believe that he had been correctly informed that all that work had been completed. So without checking his own paperwork he proceeded to issue instruction to field staff. So again, I'd suggest the faults information presented by Mr Finton would not have changed the situation had there been a longer or shorter handover period. The fact that he had misled his following officer was the primary reason him not completing that safe working procedure.
PN2530
Now, we have heard that Mr Barry King is an electrical systems supervisor?---That's correct.
PN2531
With the centre?---Yes.
PN2532
And for some time he has been on virtually full-time secondment to the MITS, Logica MITS SCADA implementation team, is that right?---He's certainly been very heavily involved from factory acceptance testing to some of the more recent development, yes.
PN2533
I don't recall at the moment but in at least one of the affidavits filed on behalf of the unions there is a memo from him about issues that he thought needed to be addressed?---Correct.
PN2534
Has Mr King been present here to your observation for most of the hearing?---He has been.
PN2535
Nothing further, your Honour.
PN2536
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XXN MR CARCARY
PN2537
MR CARCARY: Mr Simpson, what is your current position in SRA?---I don't have a current position. I'm here at the request of SRA because of my prior involvement with the operational centre. I am an employee of RIC. I am employed as a senior design team leader, electrical design.
PN2538
So you are actually employed by the Rail Infrastructure Corporation?---I am.
PN2539
Just to aid the Commission, could you please outline the structure of the New South Wales rail industry at the moment?---Rail industry? We have - like many of the infrastructure areas we have an infrastructure owner being the Rail Infrastructure Corporation. We have a primary service provider and user of the infrastructure and network and that is the State Rail, City Rail operations. They also have a freight rail operations group and various other interstate operators using that network.
PN2540
We have heard evidence today about a company called ARGUS. Where do they fit in the scene of things?---ARGUS was formed by a transfer of a communications group from State Rail to the Rail Access Corporation and formed as a subsidiary company to provide communication services throughout the state, not only to the rail infrastructure network but to other government services. They are now a subset of the RIC organisation but still retain the ARGUS logo.
PN2541
How long have you been with the Rail Infrastructure Corporation?---Since 2000, came back to rail - well, since January 2001 of course. Prior to that it was the Rail Services. I resumed work within the rail industry in around about September '97.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XXN MR CARCARY
PN2542
So between September '97 and when you went to the Rail Services Authority, what was your position and who were you employed by?---Well, take it one step back further. I started with the New South Wales Department of Railways in 1961 as an apprentice in the electrical branch. I left the railways as a professional engineer in October 1980 and went to the Prospect Electricity, Prospect County Council at that stage. I was outplaced from INTEGRAL, previously known as Prospect, around 1997 when RSA were looking for someone with a background in overhead wiring for specifically the new Southern Railway Airport Link project. They had very few designers with a background in the catenary design, for fixed ended catenary tunnel type work.
PN2543
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What was that word?---Sorry.
PN2544
What is that word, catenary?---Catenary - overhead wiring system.
PN2545
MR CARCARY: When did your employment with the State Rail Authority cease?---State Rail Authority?
PN2546
Or State Rail as it is commonly known?---You are saying employment; when did my secondment to State Rail cease? It's a rather confusing issue because over the past few months I've been sitting with a foot in both camps between RIC and SRA. Effectively I was to go over there for six weeks from about 2 July last year and that was extended and extended right through until some six weeks ago - 19th of last month I believe was the date that I resumed within RIC.
PN2547
Which one of these entities were you working for around the 6th of the 9th last year?---Employed by RIC RSA but working at the operational centre. So from early July last year right through until ceasing there just prior to the 19th of last month.
PN2548
On secondment?---On secondment.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XXN MR CARCARY
PN2549
I'm just trying to establish where your position fits on the diagram that was handed up as SRA7?---In fact, if you read the affidavit you will find that I was in fact acting for Mr Griffin as the system control engineer and I was fulfilling that role, the full delegation from the SRA.
PN2550
How long had you fulfilled that role?---It's approximately nine months this time round. I was there for the previous year for a four month stint and that was extended through the Olympics and that was a period again from end of July 2000 through until almost November.
PN2551
So since the year 2000 you have mainly been fulfilling that role as the system control engineer for the train operations, metropolitan engineering operations division?---That would be correct.
PN2552
Were you employed around the 12th of the 10th 2001?---I think by my reckoning that's in the period between July of last year and more recent months, yes.
PN2553
Are you aware of the Trouble Instruction 3515 that has been tendered in these proceedings as SRA2?---I am.
PN2554
How many other Trouble Instructions have you written?---How many have I written? Prior to the Olympics I wrote several instructions which I cannot recall the numbers of. But they were specifically related to network alterations for improving security and maintaining security for the Olympics. For an interface of operations with the Energy Australia at Hawkesbury and innumerable others. In these more recent months I have been through - and Mr Durbidge could probably have given you a number had you asked him - an inordinate number of protection instructions which are still related to these operating instructions which are the calibration and setting details for circuit-breakers and other equipment in the system.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XXN MR CARCARY
PN2555
What is the process to write a Trouble Instruction?---Process? The process for things like the Dapto/Kiama, we would expect a maintenance engineer or one of his representatives to have provided a draft document vetted then by the system control engineer and supported by his training officer to evaluate the process which is identified in that document following which, if it were an acceptable and realistic and achievable instruction, when we would endorse it.
PN2556
The people that actually have to work under these instructions are not consulted about the development of it?---The persons who work under these instructions are in fact the maintenance providers. The operating instructions are there for the benefit of the maintenance personnel who may not be familiar with the equipment, it means they can go to an unfamiliar site and drag out the instruction, if they don't have it then the system operator has a copy and the system operator, system controller, system supervisor may be able to lead that substation's technician through the activity by reading verbally the document, step by step procedure.
PN2557
So Trouble Instruction 3515 is for maintenance staff, is it?---In this case, it is solely within the operational centre at Prince Alfred and it is intended there for any persons within the centre, system operators and/or SCADA technicians or whoever else to understand how to reset the modem at that centre. Now, if you look at that instruction, that instruction has, in fact, been written by the acting SCADA engineer, Mr Matthew Percival.
PN2558
How many years of experience do you have of working in the operations type area of the rail network?---Of the rail network, more recent experiences, we're talking now of over a year, 9 months recently, 4 months previously.
PN2559
What is the role of the system operators employed by SRA?---I would suggest the primary role is to ensure the safety and security of the networks, the high voltage system and the 1500 volt traction system. Secondly, it is to provide safe access to that network and thirdly, it is to operate as a 24-hour call centre so that they can initiate response by maintenance providers in the event of there being an incident.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XXN MR CARCARY
PN2560
Are there various points of supply of electricity for the rail network?---Yes.
PN2561
And what is the differences between those?---The primary difference is perhaps who owns that supply point.
PN2562
So the supply of the electricity costs are the same no matter where it is drawn from?---Under the agreements establishments with RIC they would have consolidated building and it wouldn't matter a raspberry whether it was supplied from Newcastle or from Integral Energy at Kiama if the system were capable of taking it the rates that are chargeable to the RIC installation is common, it is a consolidated building arrangement. There is no differential between one source and another.
PN2563
Mr Woods took you to certain sections of your affidavit to do with WHVIs, I think it was at page 15. Page 16 is a sample of what is commonly known as a WHVI?---That's correct.
PN2564
Who writes the WHVIs?---In the case of the Working High Voltage Instruction it is, in fact, a programming officer who is qualified as a system controller. It may also be written by system controllers.
PN2565
And once he has then written them, what then happens to them?---They'd be entered on the work sheet for the day, which is page 15, and they would be taken out to the control room for checking.
PN2566
What does that checking process entail?---That checking process I believe should be correlation between the network alternation advices that are available to the operator with the knowledge of the system changes that may take place for any changes of work, because mind you this could be several days in advance of the actual job taking place and checking it with other projects to see that there is no other switching which is going to impact upon this particular isolation.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XXN MR CARCARY
PN2567
Who does that checking?---May be the - in this case, it may well be the senior system supervisor.
PN2568
Any one else?---I believe one of the senior controllers is quite capable of doing that.
PN2569
And once it has been checked then what happens with a Working High Voltage Instruction?---I believe there will be copies sent off to the maintenance provider, such that they have a facsimile copy from which they can coordinate their part of the activity.
PN2570
And the activity that they are coordinating is what?---Well, they have to know where the earthing and where the limits of access are and they would be comparing that switching instruction, it also gives them the time for access. So they would be comparing that with their works crews and resourcing for the work.
PN2571
And what role do the operators have in that part of the process?---The operators will initiate the switching perhaps when staff are at site and call in and say: I'm ready to proceed with switching on such and such authority number or a WHVI number.
PN2572
So let me get it right. They perform a function in the control room and some times happens in the field?---Yes, that'd be right.
PN2573
How are they made certain that that operation has actually occurred?---They're in communication with the field staff, both before and after the operations. So the field staff report back. So where this information or where this apparatus that they are operating may not be on SCADA and they can't control the operation or see the change of status, they are relying upon the field staff and informing them and keeping them informed.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XXN MR CARCARY
PN2574
What is the importance of this whole process?---Safety.
PN2575
So would it be fair to say that the people out in the field are the ears for the operators?---Eyes and ears, yes.
PN2576
Eyes and ears?---Yes.
PN2577
And the SCADA system, the control system, would it be fair to say that that is also their eyes?---Yes.
PN2578
Would it be advisable to liven up a line without those eyes and ears in place?---Which eyes are ears are you referring to, Mr Carcary?
PN2579
Without the indication system?---Without the SCADA indication system?
PN2580
Yes?---It can be done and it has been done and for the majority of your network where you have air brake switches which are not under SCADA control it's performed by a verbal instruction from the operator. You don't always have an alarm function or a protection standing over it. If you relate to a distribution substation with no SCADA control you are reliant upon the field staff operating that equipment and reporting back verbally. There is no status indication to the system operator and you have some 800 distribution substations in the rail system, the majority of which have no SCADA control.
PN2581
And who bears responsibility for these operations?---Ultimately the person performing the operation.
PN2582
Is there a difference between working on the high voltage and the 1500 volt sections?---The primary difference between working is the environment. Safe working procedures are different.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XXN MR CARCARY
PN2583
Safe working procedures are different?---Yes.
PN2584
And why is that?---Because you are working in a rail corridor. In one, you are on track and the other you may be within the rail corridor, but clear of track.
PN2585
So do work in high voltage areas apply to 1500 volt traction supply?---1500 volt is not deemed as high voltage.
PN2586
What complexities come with working in the rail corridor?---Hazard risk assessment is one of the foremost activities performed by RIC before they even step out to plan their work. So the complexities are many because of the safe working rules and the safe access requirements.
PN2587
And are the operators aware of those issues?---You would expect so.
PN2588
Do they have any input in to those issues?---Insofar as switching and operating the network, yes. In terms of, lets say, rail connecting the 1500 volt catenary there seems to be limited access and limited responsibility. That responsibility goes to the authorised mains officer.
PN2589
In questioning by Mr Woods you spoke of the signal trouble, or what I now believe is called the IOC, Infrastructure - - -?---Infrastructure Operation Centre, yes.
PN2590
Thank you. When you talked about the handover time in the infrastructure centre - - -?---Yes.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XXN MR CARCARY
PN2591
- - - what is your understanding of the current position?---My understanding is that while they remain as a one-man operational centre, one-man shift, they will continue to maintain a 30-minute handover even though the RIC persons, the justification for there in fact being a 30-minute handover has changed, they are not proposing yet to change it. Once they go to a two-man operation at the IOC, Infrastructure Operation Centre, then the situation will change and there's an expectation of significantly changing the handover procedures, such as, by staggering the shifts of the two operatives who will be there.
PN2592
So currently there is one operator that mans the centre?---One-man operation, yes.
PN2593
I take it from your evidence that is being changed to a two-man operation?---Correct.
PN2594
Why are they changing from one man to two man?---With the Infrastructure Operation Centre part of the vesting and arrangement of their transfer was such that they could take on an expanded role. It is not just what is referred to as the signals trouble group, it's signals and civil and the civil component of their work will eventually cover the entire State. So the whole of the RIC infrastructure throughout New South Wales will be managed through that centre. Also the signals currently only monitor a limited number of metropolitan level crossings for which there is video camera and various other alarm functions reporting back to Sig trouble. That will ultimately be generated such that it is covering all level crossings throughout the State. So there is a significant change of function as well as the need to ensure they've got coverage.
PN2595
Is it your evidence that the move to a two-man operation will lead to a reduction in the handover time?---From my discussions with the group following the supplementary affidavits which were received and when I went back to check on some of the roster submissions - because I was completely unaware of RIC having changed their work practices for the maintenance staff some time in January, but on following up with that, yes, they admitted that once they have a two-man operation they fully expect to stagger shifts and reduce from 30 minutes to some other nominal period.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XXN MR CARCARY
PN2596
And that has been agreed to, has it?---No, it's an expectation which they are themselves stating it's the inevitable.
PN2597
You were asked by Mr Woods about the Dapto-Kiama line and its relative closeness to the ocean. At what point does the line come nearest the ocean?---Bombo Beach.
PN2598
And what distance would that be?---There's only a small roadway separating the sand from the - the beach sand from the rail line.
PN2599
Do you know of any other location that is that close?---I think part way up the escarpment, I can't think of the name of the place but somewhere between Coalcliff and Bellambi.
PN2600
You talked about salt build up, what effect does salt build up have on an overhead power line?---In an extreme situation, salt on the overhead power line doesn't do too much unless it is an extremely moist condition where you then get salts created and you get an electrolytic corrosion. In terms of deposits on insulators, if you go to Western Australia the experience with the regular winds blowing and the doctor bringing sea breezes in every afternoon they have salt and sand build up which they have to go and pressure wash and it's to avoid flash over.
PN2601
And is Western Australia the only places this happens?---No, but we have had systems on the South Coast since the mid '80s fully exposed to ocean elements and no damage and no signs of damage and a worse situation is both within the sulphide junction area on the Newcastle line or around Port Kembla, around the steel works. Both those areas have significant sulphide deposits from the steel works and there is no definitive corrosion impact on the network.
PN2602
You have also given some evidence today about the modem for the Dapto-Kiama area. I think you referred to it as the Bombo modem?---Yes.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XXN MR CARCARY
PN2603
What does that modem do?---That modem is an automatic dialling facility, if you like, it translates the signal from one part of the equipment to another and auto dials to the remote to transfer the signal. It transfers and receives the signal.
PN2604
And what is the signal?---What is the signal?
PN2605
Yes?---It's a digital signal.
PN2606
What does it indicate?---The signal?
PN2607
Yes?---The signal is indicating whatever you are communicating, I mean, it's part of the SCADA network, so presumably we are talking here of signals which relate to status alarms or control functions to or from the remote.
PN2608
So what does this modem do at the end of the day?---It allows an interface between the SCADA master station and the communications network, the ARGUS Communications Network.
PN2609
What would be the effect if that modem wasn't working and an operator sends a signal for something to happen in Bombo?---Well, that if - if that particular modem wasn't working because of the state of the system there's a - an alarm checking function and I believe he would receive alarms of a communication failure. So he can presume straight off that, all right, I've lost COMS or perhaps he's not getting an indication from the other end, he may want to send a test signal to the remote and he'll get a no reply.
PN2610
What it something happens in the BOMBO?---If something happens in the BOMBO and he doesn't receive an alarm.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XXN MR CARCARY
PN2611
So the system could change status without him knowing?---Yes.
PN2612
Are you aware of the procedure that has been put in place for resetting that modem?---Yes. I in fact endorsed it.
PN2613
When you reset the modem, did you log the fault in the log book for the SCADA technicians?---I don't believe there was such a process in place to log the fault at that time. I further believe that these modem were a temporary measure originally intended to only have been in the system for 2 months until such time as the master station was functional after which the modems would be removed and the entire system for the south coast would then be communicating directly with the new master station.
PN2614
Under examination from Mr Woods you gave some evidence about log entries and an assessment that you had made of log entries. You referred to the number 1 desk, is that correct?---Yes.
PN2615
Is the number 1 desk the same as the number 2 desk?---Definitely not.
PN2616
Who sits at the number 1 desk?---Supervisor, duty supervisor.
PN2617
Who sits at the number 2 desk?---Normally one of the senior system controllers.
PN2618
Is the function of the electrical supervisor to supervise?---Yes.
PN2619
Is it his role to become directly involved in work which would require log entries?---From the number of logs that I have seen over the period I have been there, he does participate and quite often duplicates whatever reports are being generated. Where the 2, 3 or 4 desk are being specific he may even generalised or he may have taken specific calls while those other operators were present. It is just his method of recording where he has been involved in an event or incident.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XXN MR CARCARY
PN2620
Is it feasible on a good day the supervisor may not need to log anything?---Quite so.
PN2621
Have you done a breakdown of the log book on the number 2 desk?---I believe I looked across a number of desks. What I have given you in evidence was only related to where Mr Markovski was talking in terms of the impact on his work area so my focus was maintained to the number 1 desk.
PN2622
Your expectation being the number 1 desk log book would be similar in quantity to the number 2 or number 3 desk?---No, not in terms of - they are not directly directing operations and recording switching.
PN2623
I might take you now to your affidavit which has been marked as SAR6 dated 12 March 2002. On the first page, under the heading: General overview of point 4:
PN2624
Power supply system with respect to the rail network in New South Wales has not fundamentally changed in over 30 years.
PN2625
Could you qualify that statement for us please, Mr Simpson?---The structure over the overhead wiring system has really not changed. It is still track related. There has been a number of extension for growth. There has been a number of reductions where parts of the original network have been removed or disbanded. Within the high voltage network, from my prior employment within the rail industry, Department of Railways, State Rail Authority, I was engaged within the mains area and we virtually rebuilt the backbone of the high voltage transmission and subtransmission networks. I am suggesting that in this statement I see there has been no significant change from some 20-odd years ago, nearly 30-odd years ago, to the current day. There has been minor alterations but the structure and backbone of that network is fundamentally the same as it was 30 years through the seventies. I can add to that, Mr Carcary, if you look at the city underground system, they are only now just starting to replace a number of the 33 KV cable systems which were installed in the early sixties. What I supervised through the 1970s for eastern suburbs railway, is still functional and still remains in tact as was at the time of commission.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XXN MR CARCARY
PN2626
You have talked replacement of certain equipment. The replacement of that equipment, why has that been done?---The replacement of a lot of equipment has taken place for upgrading. If you focus simply on the overhead wiring network, there has been major program for the past 10 to 15 years to replace corroded rusted structures which have been in existence since 1926. So the whole network has gone through a significant upgrade program overall to improve liability and improve service performance.
PN2627
Has there been any change in size of the network?---Yes, there has been a natural growth within the network.
PN2628
By "natural growth" you mean such as the extension to Dapto?---Yes, airport link, Gosford-Newcastle, eastern suburbs railway, Richmond line - there are various things, East Hills to Glenfield - I mean, there are a whole host of growth areas. There is also a number of reductions.
PN2629
Has the electrical system been removed in those areas of reduction?---Not in all of them.
PN2630
Has there been any duplication of lines in the metropolitan area?---Yes.
PN2631
Does that add to the system?---Yes. As I say, there has been a natural growth.
PN2632
In your affidavit, also at point 4, you say the complexity has been removed due to progressive replacement of 2.2 KV system. Is there any 2.2 KV left in the system?---Most definitely.
PN2633
At what locations?---Hornsby, Strathfield, Strathfield-Lidcombe, Sefton and a couple of other locations, I think Sutherland - these are a very small component of what was originally a most extensive system. If you could consider the main line, the main suburban line from Central to Strathfield, it would have been cabled on both sides with signalling location huts and substations every kilometre. That no longer exists.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XXN MR CARCARY
PN2634
Has the function of the network changed over the last few years?---No.
PN2635
Are you aware of the priorities of the New South Wales Rail Network?---Priorities? Safety, on time running, customer service.
PN2636
Are they the same priorities that existed a number of years ago?---I believe they are. The emphasis may have been different but I believe safety has always been at the forefront and certainly, from my experience with the Granville disaster way back when, the emphasis then was $15 million per annum program to upgrade the rail infrastructure, $15 million per annum. I am talking of the late seventies and I was a coordinator for the electrical group during that time.
PN2637
Maybe we should let the guys get back to work, looking out the window. I can take you to point 8 in the affidavit, Mr Simpson - - -
PN2638
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The transcript will puzzle anyone who reads it so I observe the weather outside is looking bad and there may be a lot of troops coming our way. Now, perhaps the transcript will make a bit of sense, if anyone is interested in reading it. We have not got a long time we can go, Mr Carcary. You identify a convenient spot where you finish a topic and let me know where you have got there. We can go for a little while longer but if there is a particular topic you can deal with and complete, do that.
PN2639
MR CARCARY: Not really, your Honour.
PN2640
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You have got a while to go?
PN2641
MR CARCARY: Yes.
**** ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON XXN MR CARCARY
PN2642
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I understand. We will go off transcript for a short time.
NO FURTHER PROCEEDINGS RECORDED
ADJOURNED UNTIL UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 29 MAY 2002 [4.14pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
STEPHEN JOHN DURBIDGE, SWORN PN1737
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR CARCARY PN1737
EXHIBIT #CEPU6 STATEMENT OF MR DURBIDGE WITH ANNEXURE DATED 16/03/2002 PN1743
EXHIBIT #CEPU7 TWO-PAGE DOCUMENT OF CALCULATIONS PN1759
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WOODS PN1773
EXHIBIT #SRA1 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS PN1797
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CARCARY PN1818
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1832
PETER WILLIAM McGREGOR, SWORN PN1835
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR CARCARY PN1836
EXHIBIT #CEPU8 AFFIDAVIT OF MR P.W. McGREGOR DATED 22/02/2002 PN1843
EXHIBIT #CEPU9 AFFIDAVIT OF MR P.W. McGREGOR DATED 25/03/2002 PN1847
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WOODS PN1854
EXHIBIT #SRA2 ELECTRICAL SYSTEM CONTROL TROUBLE INSTRUCTION NO 3515 KIAMA EXTENSION PN1992
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CARCARY PN2032
WITNESS WITHDREW PN2078
EXHIBIT #SRA3 AFFIDAVIT OF BRENDA JOAN WARE SWORN 11/03/2002 PN2088
ANDREW DWYER, SWORN PN2089
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WOODS PN2089
EXHIBIT #SRA4 AFFIDAVIT OF ANDREW DWYER SWORN 11/03/2002 PN2093
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CARCARY PN2095
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WOODS PN2167
WITNESS WITHDREW PN2182
GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH, SWORN PN2183
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WOODS PN2183
EXHIBIT #SRA5 COPY OF AFFIDAVIT OF GREGORY ROBERT GREENHALGH PN2186
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CARCARY PN2193
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WOODS PN2408
WITNESS WITHDREW PN2427
ROBERT GRAHAM SIMPSON, SWORN PN2429
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WOODS PN2429
EXHIBIT #SRA6 AFFIDAVIT SWORN 12/03/2002 BY R.G. SIMPSON PN2432
EXHIBIT #SRA7, DOCUMENT HEADED: TRAIN OPERATIONS METROPOLITAN - ENGINEERING OPERATIONS PN2454
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CARCARY PN2537
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