C2001/6358, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 2028 (5 June 2002)

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER SMITH

C2001/6358

TELSTRA/CPSU AWARD 2001

Application under section 113 of the Act
by The Community & Public Sector Union to
vary the above award re dispute resolution

SYDNEY

10.00 AM, WEDNESDAY 22 MAY 2002

Continued from 21.5.02

Hearing Continuing

PN4037

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Rich?

<BENJAMIN WICKS, ON FORMER OATH [10.00am]

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICH

PN4038

MR RICH: Thank you Commissioner.

PN4039

Mr Wicks, yesterday when we left off I was talking about I think paragraph 28 of your statement. I think that's where we were and we'd just been going through the basis for the calculation of some of those payroll records on time lost. Now in paragraph 29 at the bottom of that page 9 there, you indicate why you think there was a high level of industrial action in 1998 and then you say:

PN4040

Significantly no industrial action was taken in relation to the negotiation of the current enterprise agreements.

PN4041

Do you have any idea why there was no industrial action taken?---Obviously I wasn't present during those negotiations however, my understanding is that the process with negotiation with the unions was a fairly smooth one.

PN4042

So the fact that there was no industrial action didn't have anything to do with the fact that the agreements were negotiated before the expiry of the previous agreement?---That would be certainly a relevant issue, yes.

PN4043

The industrial action taken in 1998 was that protected industrial action?---I don't know.

PN4044

You don't know, I put it to you that it was. Is it usual in your understanding for the CPSU to take unprotected action?---In my experience at Telstra I'm certainly not aware that it's usual for the CPSU to take unprotected action, no.

PN4045

And to take industrial action in relation to the most recent enterprise agreements would have required unprotected action to be taken?---Certainly you've indicated that the negotiations occurred whilst the other agreements - the older agreements weren't expired so if industrial action was taken it would have been unprotected, yes.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4046

So it's hardly significant then that no industrial action was taken?---Around the enterprise agreement I'd certainly concede that I'm not aware of any unprotected or protected action taken around the negotiation of that agreement.

PN4047

My point is that it's not significant that there was no industrial action taken because it would have been unprotected?---I'm not quite sure I understand your point.

PN4048

You said in your statement that it's significant that there was no action taken. I'm saying it's not significant because the taking of industrial action would have been unprotected and that's why industrial action wasn't taken?---Sure. I think to put it in context in some businesses unprotected is - action is taken leading up to the negotiation of enterprise agreements.

PN4049

But you've just indicated that it's not usual for the CPSU?---That's right, yes.

PN4050

So I'm saying in the context of your statement which is in relation to the CPSU in particular it's not significant that there was no industrial action taken by the union around that agreement?---Well, the purpose of my statement was to give evidence which characterised the CPSU covered work force as a work force which doesn't take significant industrial action, yes, so that's the significant point that I'm trying to make so I would view that as a significant point whereas in other industries which are more militant employees take unprotected industrial action leading up to the negotiation of - during the negotiation of an enterprise agreement.

PN4051

THE COMMISSIONER: It just reflects the maturity of the bargaining process, doesn't it, Mr Rich?

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4052

MR RICH: That's right. I'll just clarify one quick thing which I think I forgot to ask you yesterday in relation to paragraph 22, the bullet points on page 8. There's one bullet point there that refers to the redundancy agreement being varied to allow Telstra to implement compulsory redundancies. My understanding was that the redundancy agreement which has been in place since '93 has always allowed for management initiator redundancies at the end of the redundancy process, is that right?---My understanding is that it didn't and an application was made to the Commission over I think '95, '96, '97 to vary the agreement and insert I think it was a clause 3 which specifically stated that Telstra could or had the discretion to reject applications for voluntary redundancy so my understanding is that that application was what gave Telstra the ability to engage in compulsory or management initiated retrenchments.

PN4053

But there was always the clause 4 which was the compulsory redundancies; the management initiated redundancy?---I probably have to have a look at the agreement to just refresh my - - -

PN4054

If I put that to you you're not sure whether or not that's the case?---Well, like I say I'd need to look at clause 4.

PN4055

Well, you put it in your statement here?---Well, that's right, I've indicated what my understanding is.

PN4056

And I'm saying to you that that's not correct, you're saying that it is?---Well, that's my understanding. I'm happy to look at clause 4 of the agreement.

PN4057

Sorry, it's clause 5. So that's the redundancy agreement I've just handed to you there?---Yes.

PN4058

Clause 5 deals with involuntary retrenchment?---Yes.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4059

Management initiated redundancies?---Yes.

PN4060

Wasn't that always a part of the agreement? That hasn't been recently inserted?---No, I don't think it's been recently inserted, however, my understanding is that, yes, you could have involuntary retrenchment if you couldn't get enough volunteers.

PN4061

So there's always been the capacity to have involuntary retrenchment?---Yes. Maybe we're at cross purposes. The purposes of clause 3 was to enable Telstra to not have to follow that process of simply offering voluntary redundancies until such time as they're exhausted and then selecting, rather it enabled Telstra to use - well, effectively reject applications for voluntary redundancy and theoretically therefore select staff for retrenchment without offering voluntary - - -

PN4062

So it's just about the selection process of how Telstra is able to choose. So that bullet point is not really about the ability to implement compulsory redundancies but about the process by which people are chosen for compulsory redundancy?---The purpose of the dot point was to indicate that before the Commission decision, I think it was the decision of Holmes, Telstra had to offer voluntary redundancies first and that if insufficient staff volunteered then staff could be selected. The purpose of that paragraph is to indicate that there was a decision of the Commission which was clause 3 of this agreement that enabled Telstra to reject voluntary redundancies, applications for voluntary redundancies. That's what the intention of that dot point was is to indicate that the agreement changed significantly in that it enabled Telstra to effectively retain the best staff.

PN4063

By the staff that it chose?---That's right.

PN4064

There will be some debate about whether they have the best staff or not, when i's a value judgment?---Sure.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4065

Okay, fair enough. I might now go to your paragraphs 24 and 25. Can I have the spreadsheet that goes back to 1990 which is BW2 I think, sorry BW3?---Yes.

PN4066

But you see you've only confirmed with the Commission the disputes going back to March 2000, is that right?---Yes.

PN4067

So that all the disputes before March 2000 haven't been confirmed with the Commission, they're just what Telstra has on record?---That's right. Prior to that date Telstra maintained a central registry of industrial disputes and matters. Post that date that registry was no longer kept in place so I was concerned that the data post that date would not be accurate and I asked the Commission if they could help me by identifying the disputes they'd received after that date.

PN4068

Okay. If I can take you to BW2, sorry, BW3?---Yes.

PN4069

Which is the list of the disputes?---Yes.

PN4070

If I can start at page 7 of 11, the second last entry there, 19 September '97, disputes procedure, that deals with a dispute between the CPSU and Telstra about the application of disputes avoidance procedures, doesn't it?---Certainly based on that entry, I would expect, yes.

PN4071

Then over the page on page 8 of 11, the appeal 17 December 1997, which relates to the redundancy agreement, that dealt in part with dispute settlement procedures under that part of the agreement and the application to remove merit review - - -?---Under the redundancy agreement?

PN4072

Yes, is that right, that's what that one was about?---Yes, I think that relates to the matter we discussed a minute ago around the insertion of clause 3 into the redundancy agreement.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4073

And that dealt with also the application to remove merit review and so in part it dealt with the dispute settlement procedures that were available under that particular agreement, is that right?---Yes, I understand that Telstra's application in that matter was to remove the internal Telstra review board process from the agreement, yes.

PN4074

And that was quite a long hearing and that went on for quite a long time?---I understand it went for some - almost years.

PN4075

Yes, 50 days of hearing or thereabouts, something like that?---Yes.

PN4076

And the one below 12 February '98?---Yes.

PN4077

That dealt with a similar process, the Promotion's Appeal Board, the review procedures in the Telstra General Conditions of Employment Award?---Yes, I think I refer to that in my statement.

PN4078

The removal of those - - -?---Paragraph 22 of my statement, the second last dot point.

PN4079

Okay, and down the bottom of that page in 27 July 1998 the appeal there, appeal by Telstra and the CPSU against order of Commissioner Lewin, that dealt in part with promotion and disciplinary appeal boards, is that right?---I don't know on that matter.

PN4080

The award simplification matter 1 October 1998, the last entry there?---Yes.

PN4081

That dealt in part with the dispute settlement procedures under the Award, is that right?---I don't know if that particular application dealt with it, but certainly the CPSU Award was simplified and the disputes procedure was simplified as well, I think.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4082

Well that's the application in relation to the reviewable awards?---Okay, sure.

PN4083

That would have included dispute settlement procedure issues, yes?---Yes, I would expect it would.

PN4084

Over the following page, on 15 October '98 which is the second issue there. That involved in part an application of the dispute settlement procedures under that agreement, do you agree with that?---No.

PN4085

You are not familiar with that particular dispute?---No. I am not sure what the CSR Agreement is. I imagine it's an old agreement.

PN4086

Customer Service Representatives I think something like that. The 26 February '99 in relation to union misuse of email. That dealt in part with the union delegate using the email for representative purposes?---Yes.

PN4087

If you go down to the bottom of that page to the two last issues in 1999, award variation. Those two matters dealt with the CPSUs application to vary the Telstra Award to insert for want of a better word, arbitration leave, as they elect to attend industrial proceedings and dispute resolution training leave, is that right?---Yes.

PN4088

Over the page, the second issue in 1999. It appears to have dealt with union representation, is that right?---Yes.

PN4089

Similarly 12 August 1999 also dealt with rights of representation?---Yes.

PN4090

9 September 1999 again dealt with about a breach of the disputes procedure?---Yes.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4091

Again, 1 March 2000 dealt with the disputes procedure?---Yes.

PN4092

Then we have got Mr Spicer, that issue which has been raised a couple of times before the Commission here on 21 May which dealt as we have heard in part with issues involving the representation of Mr Spicer?---Yes.

PN4093

THE COMMISSIONER: Was that two years ago?

PN4094

MR RICH: Time flies. So it would be fair to say then, wouldn't it, that there's a long history of dispute between the CPSU and Telstra in relation to the rights of representation and dispute settlement procedures?---I think it's fair to say that the rights that the union has enjoyed have changed through simplification, etcetera.

PN4095

Would it be fair to say that there's been a fair level of dispute between CPSU and Telstra about the rights of representation and dispute procedures, given what I've just pointed you to in your attachment?---Again, I think it's relative to the size of our business. I think in my statement I'd argue that overall if you look at the number of staff it's probably not that high.

PN4096

So you think that's not a very high level of dispute then about those issues?---I think in proportional terms as against the number of other disputes, I think that there has been a fair degree of disputation given the changes in the rights the unions enjoyed and their views on those changes. But relative to the number of employees in the business I would suggest, in my experience, I haven't done the analysis but it may be that there's actually a low level of disputation relative to other businesses and other industries.

PN4097

So you are not willing to really make any comment about whether or not that might constitute a high level of dispute about those particular issues?---Well, as I said relative to other disputes it's been an issue of disagreement and change between the parties for some time.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4098

I can see there's an ongoing history of what you recognise as an ongoing history of problems about this issue between the union and the company?---Well, my understanding and in an application by the union to change the award again that the union does not accept and does not agree with the changes that were made to the award through simplification.

PN4099

Have a look at the next attachment to your statement or the next two attachments really because they do sort of sit together?---Sure.

PN4100

Could we just have a look at the first one which is BW4?---Applications which the CPSU has initiated or been a party to?

PN4101

Yes, that's the one?---Yes.

PN4102

Just look at 2001, can I just ask how you got the number 21 there, you might need to refer back to the previous exhibit just to indicate how you did that. I counted up the number there under 2001 and came to 23 and that happened for a couple of those there. I'm just wondering if you can confirm for me how you - - -?---Yes, the way that I did it was I took the spreadsheet which was on Excel. I don't know what you call it, but you can attach the drop down lists at the top of each column of each of the different types of disputes. So I sorted the data base into the year 2001 and then if you look at my next exhibit which is dispute applications which the CPSU has initiated or been a party to, I then searched on each of those types of applications, put them into that spreadsheet and then moved those numbers across into the first exhibit which is applications which the CPSU has initiated or been a party to.

PN4103

Would you accept that if you count the number of disputes you've got listed here in 2001 that there are actually 23 and not 21?---I have to go back and have a look through 2001.

PN4104

You've got it before you?---Sure. Yes, I accept there are 23.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4105

So your attachment BW4 isn't strictly for some reason the Excel spreadsheets seem to have done something funny and you haven't quite got the right number there?---Or alternatively after I had done the spreadsheet, there had been some - a couple of later disputes that were added in.

PN4106

For 2001?---For 2001.

PN4107

I did the same thing with 2000 and came up short, 11 rather than 9. It seems to suggest to me that your spreadsheets are less than perfect?---Actually, I may have the solution. When I merged our data base with the Commission's, obviously where we had dual matters, then there was double counting and can take you to an example, just looking at it on page 10 of 11, 9 September '99, you will see "breach of disputes procedure, dispute consultation". They are actually the same dispute. One is the Commission's and the other is the one that we had on our record. So I think what I've done is I've gone through and taken out the double disputes. So for example in 2001 - - -

PN4108

So how have you determined they are the same disputes?---By using the Commission's data and looking at Telstra's. For example if you go to 12 September on page 11, it's got "dispute individual, concerning the potential termination of Mr Frank Williams" and then the next one is "concerning the redundancy section 09 Mr Frank Williams". So, I'm sorry about that. I should have tidied up the actual data base, but I didn't do it.

PN4109

So with Mr Williams - - -?---And you will see also on 8 October - - -

PN4110

So they're done by issue, rather than by - because I understand with Mr Williams there was, I think, it was actually a 170LW application that may have been lodged as well as a section 99?---Sure.

PN4111

So you counted that once?---Yes.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4112

So that's for the doubling up that occurred when you got the Commission's records back from March 2000?---Yes.

PN4113

I went to 1999 and came up with the number 16 rather than 15 as well?---'99 on disputes.

PN4114

Yes?---I think I came up with 14 or something.

PN4115

Yes, 14?---Either 13 or 14.

PN4116

Yes, I came up with 14, you came up with 13?---Yes.

PN4117

Do you accept that there are 14 and not 13?---I'm just sort of flicking through. I think it was either 13 or 14.

PN4118

Which?---I'll have to count again, sorry. Yes, I accept 14.

PN4119

So there's a bit of, well, there may be other mistakes through that, but we located that one there. You said you've doubled up and you made changes you haven't referred to in your statement in relation to 2000 and 2001?---Yes.

PN4120

If we go on the figures you've got there, do you accept that there's - if you look at, I'm still looking here at BW4?---Which one was that one? Sorry, I've taken it out.

PN4121

It's the application which the CPSU has initiated, been a party to?---Okay, yes.

PN4122

Do you accept if you take as a start date the beginning of '96 and look at the six years after '96 compared to the six years before '96 that there's an increase in the average number of disputes?---I'd also indicate though - - -

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4123

But do you accept that proposition?---I do, but I'd like to - - -

PN4124

No, that's the only question I asked you, that's okay?---Okay.

PN4125

Can I take you to the following attachment which is BW5 which is the more simple type of table which uses the same figures you've got on the BW4?---Yes.

PN4126

Can I ask how you classified the different applications, because you obviously went around for all these years, you looked at the heading on the - - -?---I read the title or the description and, yes, tried to categorise them as best I could.

PN4127

And you don't know, for example, whether or not some of the applications that were made, for example, to vary an award actually related to or might have been means for the union to settle or try to deal with disputes it was having with the company elsewhere?---This, in a sense, goes back to your last question about the increase in disputes. Obviously prior to '96 there was a different industrial system and so - - -

PN4128

Sorry, can I just get you to answer my question. When you classified the disputes here, you're just including disputes that were notified as disputes to the Commission?---That's correct. So prior to '96 some award variations would be disputes and so if on the last question you'd allowed me to explain, prior to '96 there were more award matters. Post '96 there were more dispute matters and less award matters other than simplification etcetera.

PN4129

And equally, for example, this application might be seen as a means of resolving the disputes that have been ongoing between CPSU and Telstra over some period?---Well, I'm not sure that that's a dispute.

PN4130

No, that's my point, is that that's not the way it's been classified, but it might be seen to be a means of resolving an ongoing dispute?---An issue between the union and Telstra?

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4131

Yes?---Well, I guess that's a legal question.

PN4132

But you accept that might be the case?---There's been conflict over these issues between the union and the company.

PN4133

And the Commission's ruling here might well resolve some of that conflict?---Well it might resolve it for the union and possibly not for the company.

PN4134

At the end of the day it will resolve it, whether the day ends with me or somewhere else?---We'd say that some of the previous decisions have resolved it.

PN4135

MR RICH: I might take you back to the body of your statement. Can I ask you first, in terms of the way the fair treatment procedure works, and whether or not you are aware that it works or it doesn't work, you're only aware if it doesn't work if there's some dispute about it or if somebody is telling you it's not working, is that right?---That's one of the reasons. The other issues that have arisen are where staff don't use the fair treatment and so they will bring an individual matter to the union for representation.

PN4136

If, for example, a staff member takes an individual matter to union representation, maybe goes and talks to the local delegate and the local delegate then goes and talks to the manager and it's resolved there, you are not aware of matters that are resolved in that way are you?---No.

PN4137

So you don't know what other processes might be going on to resolve issues in the workplace that aren't reported to you?---No, I would imagine there's that process, there is also the process which is probably more common where the staff member just talks to the manager.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4138

So in terms of paragraph 30, which says that the first option after trying to resolve the issue with the manager is the fair treatment review procedure, that's Telstra's policy, that the first port of call should be the fair treatment procedure?---Yes, on matters that are covered by that procedure.

PN4139

But it might be that first port of call might be for the manager to talk to the union representative, if they have a good relationship with them in the workplace?---I'm sure that occurs on occasions, sure.

PN4140

So when you're saying here that it's the first option, you are saying that the policy is that it's the first option, not that in every case it is the first option?---My understanding of the workforce we are talking about, the CPSU workforce, the vast majority would use the fair treatment process, or would - - -

PN4141

On what basis do you say that, you just said you don't know?---- - - Or just talk to their manager.

PN4142

But that's just conjecture though, isn't it, you don't know that?---Well, that's right, but - - -

PN4143

That's right?---- - - I mean, it's related to things like union membership and so forth. Obviously I've had discussions with other - a lot of managers in my time, who give an indication that that's the common - - -

PN4144

Which managers have you talked to about this?---Well, I can't specify managers, but certainly I deal with a lot of managers on these types of issues.

PN4145

Paragraph 34, how have those matters been categorised, do we know, are they just - - - ?---The fair treatment office, I've virtually been taken through it, have a spreadsheet. When they receive a phone call from an employee, they ask the employee what the matter, or they ascertain from the employee what the matter relates to, and then they log on the pro forma spreadsheet the nature of the inquiry.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4146

So it's the employee telling them what it relates to, if it relates to how much is being paid it's remuneration, if it relates to - - - ?---I think it's probably a joint effort between the fair treatment officer and the employee to try and ascertain what the issue is.

PN4147

So we don't know whether or not, for example, remuneration might mean payroll has debited me some money they should not have, or I'm not being allowed access to overtime, or I have been paid the wrong overtime amount, we don't really know what that - it could be any range of issues?---That's right.

PN4148

And on the other hand it could be that they have been rude to a manager, or it could be that they have been disciplined for taking flex leave outside the policy or something, it could be any number of things?---Yes, I think broadly speaking discipline would relate to a decision made by the manager to discipline an employee.

PN4149

If you look at paragraph 36, where you have got the number of matters that went to peer review, which is the third level, is that right?---Yes, yes.

PN4150

And the peer review, just to recap, is the review which is done which is only a review that the process has been followed, yes?---Yes, it's the review that the first reviewer and the second reviewer have complied with the requirements of the fair treatment policy.

PN4151

Are you proposing, because you are saying only 17 of 132 went to final review, are you proposing that the other 115 were resolved to everyone's satisfaction, is that what you are saying?---I can't make that assertion.

PN4152

You are just giving the figures?---Yes, the fact is that of the 132 fair treatments lodged, 17 have - or the employee, because it's the employee's choice as to whether they take it to peer review, I guess 17 employees out of 132 have decided that they would like to take the outcome of the second review to peer review.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4153

There could be any number of reasons why an employee might decide not to continue the review process?---Yes.

PN4154

Paragraph 37 refers to some submissions that you have received from your lawyers?---Yes.

PN4155

I'm not sure of the relevance of these submissions, and I guess I am just wanting to know what the intention of this paragraph is, what you are trying to say by the attachments you have put. So you have got attachment PW6, I think it is?---Yes.

PN4156

What's the point you are making, what is the purpose of this?---My understanding is that these are the documents, correspondence and submissions that related to the simplification of the award.

PN4157

So these are the submissions that were put?---By the CPSU and by Telstra.

PN4158

Can I take you to a letter in that attachment dated 3 December 1998 from the CPSU to Commissioner Lewin, it's toward the middle of that attachment?---Sorry, 3 December?

PN4159

Yes, it's about 12 pages in I would say?---Yes, that looks like it, yes.

PN4160

Then over the page there's an attachment which presumably is th attachment to that letter, it talks about CPSU submissions on noticeboards and that they were - it states there that:

PN4161

Provisions are based in part on the notion that communication ...(reads)... resource for communication with employees.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4162

Those are the submissions that the union made, and it is true isn't it that Commissioner Lewin accepted those submissions and allowed the noticeboard provision in the award?---I would have to read the decisions, I guess, I don't know that.

PN4163

So, you don't know much about these, that is the attachment, because they have been given to you?---They are exhibits that were given to me by our solicitors and so I obviously believed them to be accurate and correct. I have read through them but in terms of the question that you asked linking whether or not the Commission accepted the submission or not I'd have to read through the decision.

PN4164

But presumably Commissioner Lewin's decision would make that clear though, I guess, wouldn't it?---It would?

PN4165

Yes?---Yes, I would expect, if it was the case, it would.

PN4166

Can I just, on the following page there is a document entitled section 109 reviews decision?---Yes.

PN4167

THE COMMISSIONER: I'd be grateful at a convenient time if the parties are going to produce it. If they are not I would be grateful to receive extracts of all of the submissions in relation to the disputes procedure that was before Commissioner Lewin. Some of these submissions refer to earlier submissions.

PN4168

MR RICH: I'll do my best to try and find those. I must say that the union's filing system is not - - -

PN4169

MR PARRY: To take the pressure off Mr Wicks, this was my attempt to go through those documents. I haven't looked back through them but I note what the Commission has said. I assumed that I had identified all those but I take it from what you've said and I haven't looked through them, that I've missed out something.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4170

THE COMMISSIONER: I was looking, for example, at the final submissions on award content at paragraph 39. I see, I might have and it says, "Telstra's submissions on disputes procedures is set out in paragraph 154 to 159 of these submissions.

PN4171

MR PARRY: I think they're attached. I'll make sure what you're looking for is there Commissioner in any event.

PN4172

THE COMMISSIONER: It may be that I can uplift the file, in any event, from Commissioner Lewin.

PN4173

MR PARRY: It will be huge.

PN4174

THE COMMISSIONER: It's probably not a good idea then. Yes, I'm sorry, Mr Parry.

PN4175

MR PARRY: If the Commissioner please.

PN4176

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Sorry, Mr Rich.

PN4177

MR RICH: Can you explain then that this might just be an oversight or something. The following page after the document I've just taken you to, section 109 reviews decision. I don't know if it's because I haven't got the full copy. I'm just not sure what that page says or does?---I'm not sure either.

PN4178

MR PARRY: I think something is missing.

PN4179

MR RICH: Okay, well I'll just - that will need to be fixed up at some point. Can I also take you to the last page of that attachment which is the CPSUs final submissions on the clause?---The last page.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4180

I think so?---Page 4, at the bottom?

PN4181

Yes, page 4 at the bottom. Page 6 of 11 of a fax at the top?---Okay.

PN4182

Paragraph 16 there. Do you recognise that CPSU in its proposed clause provides that at any time during this stage, which is where the employee first meets and confers with their immediate supervisor, at any time during this stage the employee may choose to have representation including a union representative?---This is 16(i)?

PN4183

Yes?---Yes.

PN4184

Okay. So it would appear that the union has consistently pushed for the right for an employee to ask for union representation at any level of the proceedings. That's been a constant - a consistent- - -?---Certainly based on these submissions which I'm not sure how old they are, look like '99.

PN4185

Yes, thank you. Can I ask you, and you might not know this because you weren't around, but the fair treatment process was written and introduced in 1998, is that right, for the first time?---That sounds right, but I'm not 100 percent.

PN4186

At that time there were already a number of dispute settlement procedures available to the company under the various other industrial instruments regulating employment in Telstra, is that right?---Such as

PN4187

Apply to the award?---Yes.

PN4188

Under the agreement?---Yes.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4189

Under the redundancy agreement as well?---Yes.

PN4190

Okay and Telstra decided to write another one at that time when there were already three in existence?---Yes, I'm not sure if its - wasn't linked into the Enterprise Agreement disputes procedure.

PN4191

Sorry, you're saying it was linked in?---I'm just speculating that - - -

PN4192

Speculating, so you don't really know why- - -?---It may have been linked to the fact that the Enterprise Agreement disputes procedure refers to employees.

PN4193

When did Telstra start rolling out AWAs to it's lower level managers and staff, the level 6, do you know?---The actual date?

PN4194

No, when did it start. Did it start rolling out AWAs in '96 or in '97, '98. Do you know when?---Well it obviously would have been some time after '96. As I understand it Telstra was offering individual contracts prior to '96, so again I wasn't there but I'd speculate that the AWAs were brought in as part of that offering of individual contracts.

PN4195

But you're not sure when that all happened?---No.

PN4196

Paragraph 39 of your statement, I'll just take you back into the body of it again. You talk about and there's been some evidence about this, about the interplay between Telstra policy and the awards and you say at paragraph 39 that you're not aware of any Telstra policies that are inconsistent with the award or agreement. You're talking about, at the present point in time?---Yes.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4197

So that's based upon, in your view, the resolution of previous inconsistencies in relation to, for example, carer's leave. Those have been resolved and so those inconsistencies no longer exist and so now there are no inconsistencies. Is that the basis on which you make that statement?---I think, yes, I would say that obviously, and I think I said it yesterday, if there are any policies that we become aware of that are inconsistent with the award we would change them. Carer's leave is a unique matter in a sense.

PN4198

It was agreed between the union and the company, wasn't it? It was a matter that was done by consent?---The variation?

PN4199

Yes?---Yes, I think you might have drafted the clause.

PN4200

Yes, I think that might have been right but that was done with the agreement of - that was done by consent, it wasn't imposed upon the company?---Yes, I understand - well, I'm not quite sure of the sequence of events on that one. You've probably got more intimate knowledge.

PN4201

Well, if I put it to you that it was agreed, would you accept that that might be correct?---I'd certainly you know, Mr Rich, if that's what you were involved in and if that's what you're telling me, I'd accept it.

PN4202

Then it took a number of months for Telstra policy to catch up with the agreement that had been reached about the new clause. Is that a fair assessment?---There was another issue that came into it which was the issue of half pay sick leave. Telstra currently - or the current award provides employees with ten days full pay sick leave per annum and ten days half pay sick leave per annum.

PN4203

But the issue that was in dispute was about whether or not bereavement leave days, for example, constituted part of the pool available for carer's leave, is that right?---That's right. It's - I guess it's not an uncomplicated issue.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4204

The policy just didn't reflect that for some period after it was initially agreed on what the clause would look like. Is that a fair statement?---The policy reflects it. However our payroll system, which is obviously a payroll system for thousands - well tens of thousands of employees, does not record bereavement leave.

PN4205

Did the policy previously reflect that that was the - that when there was a dispute, I understand the policy didn't reflect that?---The policy - well the policy I think was updated to reflect the award.

PN4206

But there was a period before it was updated when there was inconsistency, is that right, when there was a six months or so period that elapsed?---I think reading the policy it was - I think it might have been vague and so there could have been inconsistency but there's been a number of - as I say, it's a unique issue this one because there are changes that both the unions and the company want made to that clause dealing with half pay sick leave, dealing with bereavement leave and in a sense the policy reflects the current award but neither party is aggressively pursuing with management that policy. Rather we're dealing with it on a case by case basis because of the fact that we want to change the clause and to change our payroll system for the period leading up to the change of that clause is a very large amount of money and a very large amount of inconvenience for all staff and managers concerned. So the practical outcome is that we need to change the clause and tidy that issue up rather than affect the whole business. So, as I say, it is an unusual one.

PN4207

Okay. Paragraph 42, where you talk about this agreement, Mr Evans's statement, you're basing your disagreement there on the figures that you've got from Telstra's data base and that you've attached, is that right?---Yes.

PN4208

So, you're basing your assessment on the number of disputes notified to the Commission?---Yes.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4209

Would you accept that Mr Evans is not limiting his definition of dispute to disputes notified to the Commission?---I've certainly been in the Commission when he's said that. I guess as I've said earlier my understanding of this particular work force is that a vast number of disputes or grievances would be dissolved directly between the employee and the manager.

PN4210

But as you also said that conjecture and you couldn't give any particular examples of discussions that you'd had even if it reflects managers telling you that?---No, I wouldn't. I've only heard summaries from managers or views that they have about the work place.

PN4211

I guess that's the same basis on which you make your opinion in paragraph 44?---If it's all right I have this statement here if I might refer to it. Yes, I would. The basis of my statement there that given the number of staff involved and the vast changes that have occurred within the business, the low number of matters that require escalation to the Australian Industrial Relations Commission would lead me to conclude that the disputes procedures or the fair treatment process or the various procedures are working effectively.

PN4212

But you would have no idea though about disputes or the number of issues that might exist in the work place that aren't raised through the process, you are only aware of those that raised through the process?---Correct and so I don't know how many issues have been resolved between the manager and the staff member directly or have been managed or resolved between the manager and the staff member and a union delegate. I can't comment on that, no.

PN4213

You don't know whether or not when matters are resolved they're resolved to the employees satisfaction or they're not resolved to the employees satisfaction, you don't know any of that, you just know that if it doesn't go any higher then it is not an issue?---The only comment I could make which again is only from general discussions with managers is Telstra, which I think is part of its history, is generally very cautious with staff and generally tries to accommodate their needs where possible.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4214

Again we've got this fantastic assertion in paragraph 46 that in your experience and from everything you've been told and I guess this is from your experience working with this wonderfully union friendly companies Coal and Allied, P & O Ports and Santos Petroleum, from all that experience trade union delegates have never had the effect of reducing disputes or leading to faster resolution, so we should give significant weight to it, isn't it?---Is this still part of my statement? I just want to clarify whether - - -

PN4215

Yes, I'm referring to paragraph 46 of your statement?--- - - - it got struck out or not. I just want to clarify that. Certainly the companies you've referred to I think particularly P & O Ports and Santos are very union friendly, extremely union friendly. The basis of my statement is based on my experience and in my experience trade union delegates when - almost always the matter can either between resolved between the manager and the staff member or alternatively it's not capable of resolution by either employees or delegates.

PN4216

So the evidence given by Ms Shirley and Ms Cherry for example you just deny altogether?---Well, the assertion is that - - -

PN4217

That they have never had the effect, it's pretty absolute?---?---Of reducing disputes?

PN4218

Well, reducing disputes or leading to their faster resolution?---Because I think based on their evidence and particularly the company's evidence in that regard the company's view or the things that the managers have told me was that the delegate had little effect on reducing those disputes or leading to a faster resolution. In fact the disputes were resolved basically between staff and the company.

PN4219

But you don't know what discussions took place between - which is what Ms Shirley and Ms Cherry gave evidence as to - the discussions between them and the members concerned before those members were encouraged to talk to the managers themselves?---Mr Rich, I would agree the word "never" is strong. I would agree with you on that basis.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4220

I'd say that the Commission should give that opinion very little weight, don't you think?---Well, that's a submission.

PN4221

You don't agree?---I'd certainly say that in my experience they generally don't have the effect of reducing disputes or leading to faster resolution but to make things easier I would agree that never is a very strong word.

PN4222

You've never been a sort of front line manager managing the number of staff?---Yes, I have. I've worked night shift running road gangs as a supervisor. I've worked as a mine superintendent, running teams of operators. On the ports I've worked as operations manager leading 400 waterside workers at West Swanson Terminal for two years and I was also general manager operations of White Bay Shipping Terminal in Sydney.

PN4223

I might now take you to some the attachment BW7 I think it was called. You say you've got Mr Evans's statement there in front of you?---Yes.

PN4224

That was the attachment that was handed up yesterday. I think it was named as an attachment but it wasn't originally?---Yes, I do, I have Mr Evans's statement.

PN4225

If you can go first to paragraph 29, which is the one you refer to in your attachment?---Yes.

PN4226

Would it be fair to say that despite Mr Chandler's view that that clearly wasn't the view of Mr Ditchfield in that case although Mr Chandler might give the view that no one is forced to take annual leave. That clearly wasn't Mr Ditchfield's view was it?---I haven't spoken to Mr Ditchfield about his view.

PN4227

You have said that he approached the union about the issue though?---On my discussions with Mr Chandler, the manager, he didn't indicate that Mr Ditchfield approached the union.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4228

So you don't accept that he approached the union about it?---The union may have approached him or not at all. I had discussion with Mr Bernard Chandler, our manager, on this issue where I, as I think as I've said earlier, I went through with him the allegation in Mr Evans's statement and sought his response and I've noted it in BW7.

PN4229

Mr Evans raised this issue of he being forced to take annual leave with you, is that right?---Mr Evans?

PN4230

Yes?---Yes, in the past he's raised with me the allegation that some Telstra managers putting pressure on staff to take annual leave, yes.

PN4231

So it's quite possible that Mr Ditchfield did contact Mr Evans then had some discussions with you as well as possibly Mr Evans being contacted by other people in relation to the same issue?---Yes, but the issue, this is one incident in Telstra with, again, tens of thousands of staff. I don't know whether this is the incident that led to Mr Evans raising the issue with me.

PN4232

But it may have been, you don't know?---No, I don't know.

PN4233

Paragraph 33. Would it be fair to say that there was a dispute over the office renovation allowance?---Yes, I understand that, and Mr Batterham told me that he was approached by the union relating to a renovation allowance.

PN4234

There was an issue about the renovation allowance?---Yes.

PN4235

Delegates were involved or the union representatives on the site were involved?---I would assume there was either delegates or an official.

PN4236

Okay?---I understand that Mr Evans I think was involved.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4237

That was later on?---Okay.

PN4238

Mr Evans wrote, if you look at your bullet points there, Mr Evans wrote a letter?---Yes.

PN4239

Prior to that there were some discussions involving the union. Mr Batterham told the union, see point 2?---Yes.

PN4240

So delegates were involved?---I don't know, either delegates or official at that stage, I don't know.

PN4241

Mr Evans' evidence was that the delegates were involved?---Yes.

PN4242

THE COMMISSIONER: His evidence was that's what he'd been told.

PN4243

MR RICH: Okay, I'll clarify that. Mr Evans evidence was that's what he had been told. Then the evidence was that the matter was escalated to Mr Evans and Mr Evans presumably then wrote that letter which you refer to in bullet point 4?---Yes.

PN4244

So it's fair to say that management was aware that the matter had been escalated through the union office?---Yes.

PN4245

And equally that you are not aware that Mr Evans understood that that prior to that there had been union delegates representatives who had been involved in the matter on the ground. I put it to you- - -?---Actually, sorry. I'm just recalling my conversations with Mr Batterham and when I look at the issue around the written warnings I think it may have been that the delegates were involved on the ground, just as a sort of look through and recollect, yes.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4246

So the delegates were involved on the ground, then it was escalated to Mr Evans and management was aware of that?---Yes.

PN4247

So I put it to you then that the discipline that did occur, that they were disciplined in a way that they wouldn't have been had they not been involved in the dispute settlement process and if they hadn't been involved in escalating it to Mr Evans?---My understanding from my discussions with Mr Batterham was that those issues were not related so from that I would say my understanding is that they wouldn't have been, that the discipline would have occurred regardless.

PN4248

So he tells you they weren't related?---Yes.

PN4249

Which he would tell you I guess, wouldn't he?---Well, I think he would - - -

PN4250

He's not going to say, Oh yes?---No, I think he would tell me because it would be unlikely that they would be related. I think it would be unlikely that a Telstra manager would take such action of disciplining someone for being a delegate.

PN4251

You don't know Mr Batterham personally though, do you?---Only through my discussions with him.

PN4252

You haven't visited the site up there?---No, I haven't.

PN4253

No doubt Mr Batterham felt he had justification for issuing the warnings in the first place but then they were overturned in the fair treatment process, is that right?---Yes, I imagine Mr Batterham, he made a management decision and I don't know at what level in the fair treatment the warnings were withdrawn but it may have been that he reviewed his own decision and decided to withdraw and change his own decision. I don't know.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4254

Can I take you then to paragraph 35?---Yes.

PN4255

Do you accept that Telstra's policy is that if you had individual agreements you go to the fair treatment process. You accept that's the policy. We talked about this yesterday and I think you accepted it then?---That's Telstra's preference.

PN4256

And as you said it's Telstra's preference to be expressed reasonably and clearly in the policy that Telstra has and I'm pointing to the policy?---I think the policy indicates what it's for, yes, that it's to resolve.

PN4257

I mean is there anything in there about raising issues through the award dispute settlement procedure, is there any policy on that?---In the?

PN4258

In Telstra's policy?---Yes, I think there was the disputes procedure policy that we looked at yesterday that related to the enterprise agreement, yes.

PN4259

The agreement, is there anything about the award dispute settlement procedure in any policies?---As I said yesterday I don't think it gets used.

PN4260

But there's nothing in Telstra's policy about the award procedure?---Because again I think in practical terms it's superseded by the enterprise agreement which is the agreed procedure between the parties.

PN4261

Can I just clarify then the enterprise agreement isn't a comprehensive agreement, is it, it only deals with certain issues, is that right?---I think it's very comprehensive on disputes procedures.

PN4262

It only deals with certain issues, the certified agreement?---Yes, but the procedure is applied I think to a number of issues.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4263

Now, would it be fair to say then that if you go to your manager with an issue, your manager is going to say, use the fair treatment process?---Within a personal issue?

PN4264

An individual grievance issue?---Yes, also the fair treatment process is available to you if you'd like to have my decision reviewed.

PN4265

She'd say, I want to use a different process like the award process for example, the manager would say, no, you have to use the fair treatment process?---The times where I've been directly involved in that question as I said yesterday I've used the words, preference or strong preference, that the internal manager, staff member process be exhausted.

PN4266

You're talking about instances where you've been involved and you're quite aware of the obligations when you're a reasonably experienced lawyer/manager and you're quite aware of the obligations upon Telstra in relation to this award agreement. The award agreement entered into. Do you accept that managers without your experience might be a bit more dogmatic in the need to use the fair treatment process given the policy that Telstra has?---I think the understanding by a lot of managers and a lot of staff is that the fair treatment process is available, is there to resolve managers decisions that effect individual employees, yes.

PN4267

Do you accept that that might be perceived by staff as them being forced to use that procedure over any other?---I don't think forced is the right word.

PN4268

I am talking about a perception. I'm not saying that managers might see that they're forcing people but do you perceive, do you understand that might lead to the perception by the staff member that that's the only option available to them?---I could understand the perception that that is the procedure that's available to them. I don't think anyone's forced to use it though. As I said yesterday in a practical sense, if somebody lodges a dispute in the Commission on an individual matter, Telstra will attend and try and resolve it.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4269

I see so they're not forced because they can go to the union and escalate it through the Commission and therefore they're not forced to use the fair treatment process because they have that other option available to them, is that what you're saying?---Well, all I can talk about is what my understanding is. I can't really make legal submissions on - - -

PN4270

No, I'm asking you have just been talking about your perception of why someone might be forced, whether they wouldn't be forced to put that means and you've said that they're not being forced because they have the option of notifying things through the Commission and Telstra will turn up and deal with it that way, is that what you're saying?---Yes, and the submissions that I've made to the Commission in writing and verbally are that it's a better use of resources for the Commission and so forth if the parties come to the Commission having fully exhausted Telstra's internal processes. That is that parties should attempt to resolve matters directly between the manager and the staff member first.

PN4271

So what you're saying which to me indicates that this notion of ever being forced to use that procedure is quite correct. That's what you're telling me now?---Well again, I've always used the words, "strong preference".

PN4272

It's your strong preference?---That's right, that the internal processes, the staff member and the company have an opportunity to exhaust the internal policies such as fair treatment before utilising other resources like the commission.

PN4273

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wicks, getting back to the issue I was raising yesterday as to the collective verses the individual?---Yes.

PN4274

Is it Telstra's view that the award procedure doesn't apply to an individual grievance?---Of this particular award?

PN4275

Yes. You recall the discussion - - -?---Yes.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4276

We had yesterday and when we were talking about employee/s - - -?---Yes.

PN4277

And so it's really to that point, is it Telstra's view that clause 19 doesn't apply to an individual grievance but only applies to a collective grievance?---Yes. But again there's the practical aspects of it that I - - -

PN4278

If somebody makes an application, there's not much you can do other than - - -?---And in some respects I'm not aware of where we've gone past in formal conciliation before the commission to try and resolve it. We're happy to try and do so. So, in a sense we haven't argued this point.

PN4279

No, no. But that's the position that gives rise to your view that the fair treatment process is the appropriate process for individual grievances?---Yes.

PN4280

Because the award process doesn't cover those circumstances?---Yes.

PN4281

MR RICH: Now paragraph 35 and 36, you recognise there that in accordance with Telstra policy, the representative that was involved was only allowed to observe?---Yes.

PN4282

Do you have exhibit W9 at all. It was a bundle of documents that was handed up relating to this paragraph?---No, I don't.

PN4283

If I can take you to six pages from the end. It's a recording of a meeting that took place on 18 December?---Yes.

PN4284

If you go down to the last paragraph there, you'll see that this is the notes of Ethel Turner, who I understand is the manager there. And the notes say - now Gary is obviously the individual with the grievance?---Yes.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4285

And Mr Rae, is the observer?---Yes.

PN4286

And it says that:

PN4287

In Gary's fair treatment, indicated ...(reads)... medical guidance is required.

PN4288

The name of a psychiatrist was then volunteered. Ms Turner said that she needed to organise that?---Yes.

PN4289

Some reports were offered over the following page. She then advised that the person had to be independent, a specialist. Mr Marshall, voiced some concerns that Ms Turner, didn't consider his doctor impartial and then the following paragraph, he declined - there was some issue about being bullied and she said that it wasn't in her intention to bully but that medical guidance was needed.?---Yes.

PN4290

Now, without making any comment upon whether or not Mr Marshall's perceptions might have been correct, can you see that - and it appears that Mr Marshall, took from that, that he was required to provide medical certificates. Can you see that the perception might have arisen from that, that he was required to do so?---Sorry, I don't understand your question.

PN4291

Sorry. From the bits of the meeting that I read out there?---Yes.

PN4292

Can you see the perception might have arisen that he was required to provide medical certificates?---"During discussions regarding his existing medical" - I - - -

PN4293

From those bits that I read to you that - - -?---Yes. I don't read into that that he's required to provide medical certificates.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4294

No. I'm saying can you see that the perception on his part may have arisen that that what was required?---I think Ms Turner's indicating that the medical certificates don't outline what limitations there are - - -

PN4295

Sorry, I'm not asking you what she saying. I'm asking you whether the perception - - -?---I wouldn't have think that you would get that perception.

PN4296

You don't think so?---No.

PN4297

Presumably that perception did arise though from that because he contacted the union office. You accept that?---Was Mr Rae, a union delegate?

PN4298

I understand so. But also the union office was contacted?---Okay.

PN4299

There's some union letters attached after that?---I think in the last paragraph, it says:

PN4300

Mr Rae, offered to assist Mr Marshall, to further outline his concerns.

PN4301

And do you see over the page there, in that exhibit, there's a letter from Rebecca Fawcett, from the CPSU. So we see he contacted the union about this issue. He thought he had to provide medical statements. Do you accept that?---I'll just read it.

PN4302

Yes?---This is to attend a medical assessment. Not provide medical statements.

PN4303

Sorry, yes?---My understanding talking to Ms Turner, was that the staff member had raised medical issues and the manager had said, "well, we need to investigate those to find out whether they have impacted on your work and therefore the decision that was made", and he declined - he indicated he didn't want to have those assessments made.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4304

I accept that there may have been some misunderstanding about what was going on here and Mr Marshall, may have got wrong end of the stick, so to speak?---Yes.

PN4305

But, all I'm suggesting to you is that arising from that meeting, Mr Marshall, was of the understanding that he was supposed to attend a - - -?---A medical assessment?

PN4306

A medical assessment.

PN4307

MR PARRY: I do object to this evidence. I think everyone's relying on a document and we're just making - this witnesses evidence is going to help us interpret that. There's a document before you, Commissioner. There's Mr Evan's hearsay evidence. I don't think asking about perceptions is really going to advance anybody's understanding of this.

PN4308

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Rich?

PN4309

MR RICH: I'll accept that submission is to be put on the documents before the commission, that's true. I won't ask anymore questions on that particular exhibit?---Sorry Mr Rich, is that W9 or - - -?---

PN4310

That was W9. I won't ask anymore on that. I'll leave it at that. Now paragraph 37. It's fair to say that the application was denied in the first instance based upon your discussion with Ms Hunter?---Sorry, I'll just re-read the notes.

PN4311

Yes?---Yes.

PN4312

And that it was taken up by the CPSU. Is that fair?---Yes, my understanding is that it was denied because the manager believed that the employee was still on a part time contract and then the CPSU - - -

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4313

It was denied in the first instance?---Yes.

PN4314

And then it was taken up by the CPSU, you accept that?---Yes.

PN4315

And then it was revisited by Ms Hunter, and she realised that she made some mistakes and it was resolved?---Yes. There was a part time contract which Ms Hunter, believed to have been signed and it actually hadn't been signed by the employee.

PN4316

So that sequence of events that I just put to you properly represents what occurred based upon your discussions with Ms Hunter?---Yes.

PN4317

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Rich, are you going to be much longer. I just had in mind to take a short break?

PN4318

MR RICH: A short break might be appropriate.

PN4319

THE COMMISSIONER: We'll have a short break.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.30am]

RESUMES [11.45am]

PN4320

THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks, Mr Rich.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4321

MR RICH: I was about to take you to paragraph 38 I think of Mr Evans statement. Again, we have got this issue of people being forced and I won't go through it all again, but I put to you that in fact staff are forced to use the fair treatment process as opposed to any other, effectively, when they have an individual grievance to raise with Telstra, do you accept that or not?---I think I've answered this question.

PN4322

Yes, I accept that. I just raise it again because it's an issue that you have disputed and I assume you'll have the same answer in respect of each instance when we're talking about people being forced, you don't accept that the way that Telstra's policies operate in effect force people to use the fair treatment process, is that right?---Again, as I've said I'm not there with each and every manager in Telstra. I have said that Telstra has a strong preference that people use fair treatment and I have been through the policy.

PN4323

Do you accept in relation to paragraph 38 that Ms Piper may well have been told that she had observer status only as per your discussions with Mr Bancroft?---No, on my discussions with Mr Bancroft he had a meeting with the union that wasn't part of fair treatment.

PN4324

He says it was just with the union and no one else, he says that he met with Ms Love and union?---Yes, with the employee and the union organiser.

PN4325

He says that he didn't require that Ms Piper just be an observer?---No, that's what he told me that he didn't place that requirement on her.

PN4326

Would it be fair to say that at that time as it is now that the fair treatment policy was that the union only be an observer?---Yes.

PN4327

That was the same as it is now?---Under a fair treatment review as to assist the employee and take notes and observe.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4328

Do you know what the position was under the enterprise agreement at the time in terms of the dispute settlement procedure for 1998/2000 agreement?---I'd have to go back and look at it but I doubt that it would be in substance too different from most disputes procedures.

PN4329

Did the fair treatment office keep records in 1999, it didn't did it?---I don't think that it did.

PN4330

So there's nothing to back up whether or not Ms Love did lodge a fair treatment application, is there?---I think what Mr Bancroft told me was that she didn't initiate a fair treatment - - -

PN4331

Yes, but there's no record to demonstrate whether she did or she didn't?---No and you obviously wouldn't - one wouldn't have been created I imagine.

PN4332

So again in this we only have Mr Bancroft's word as opposed to what was said by Mr Evans?

PN4333

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, not necessarily, it's somebody's word against somebody's.

PN4334

MR RICH: In relation to paragraph 40 of Mr Evans' statement, I take it you accept, Mr Bancroft accepts what was in Mr Evans' statement there?---Sorry, paragraph?

PN4335

40 of Mr Evans statement?---Is that a matter that involves Mr Bancroft or is that a different matter? I think Mr Bancroft is Telstra Corporate and this is Telstra Internet Consumer Sales.

PN4336

No, you're right there. The manager there was Greg Skye. You didn't contract Mr Skye?---No, in the time available I haven't spoken to him.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4337

You haven't had time to contact him?---I am not sure when we became aware that Mr Skye was the manager.

PN4338

You became aware when I faxed you, it was later than the other issues or details supplied, that was on 3 May and your phone calls would have been on 10 and 13 May?---I presume - - -

PN4339

So you had time to contact Mr - - - ?---I presume I wasn't asked to - - -

PN4340

Mr Skye and you?---Yes.

PN4341

But you haven't?---I mean I haven't - I was asked to investigate some of the paragraphs and some not. I presume that's a decision of our counsel.

PN4342

So you have nothing to say in relation to that paragraph 40 then?---I haven't spoken to the manager concerned, no.

PN4343

Paragraph 44, if I can take you there, of Mr Evans' statement. I just want to get this clear on the policy because we have had some back and forth about this but Mr Evans said in relation to that matter that your position was the same about what the award said; I think Mr Evans talked to you about it?---Yes.

PN4344

And what the award meant, that the policy hadn't been updated; is that what the position is? I mean obviously there were those other surrounding issues that both parties had with other aspects of the award such as the half day sick leave or whatever else but there was agreement on what the award actually said at that point regardless of what might needed to have been changed or otherwise?---The award clause - the sequence of events was that I - - -

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4345

Can I just clarify just that one point; was there agreement on the award in the form it was in at that point when Mr Evans spoke to you?---I don't know exactly when Mr Evans spoke to me but there was disagreement on what the award said at the start of the process because the award clause is actually missing parts from the test case clause so it's actually - that's another issue, it's actually deficient so we both understood what it should say but in actual fact the award clause contains no limitations on the amount of carer's leave and sick leave that can be accessed from the pool each year, the normal 5 day limitation, etcetera, so we both agreed that they were missing and we both understood and we went through a process on the whiteboard where we clarified together what really it ought to say and then there were the other issues obviously to tie in.

PN4346

Okay. I might just take you back as I realise I want to ask you some questions about paragraph 41 so I'll take you back a couple of paragraphs?---Yes.

PN4347

Now, it seems that Ms Tsinis has told you that there was no approach from the local CPSU delegates?---Yes.

PN4348

Do you know if Ms Tsinis knows who the local delegates are?---No.

PN4349

So it may be the people who approached here were delegates but they didn't identify themselves as such?---That's a possibility. I don't know.

PN4350

I just want to confirm at the end of the process there was some back and forth then Ms Tsinis reiterates that she doesn't have anything further to add but there was a further meeting arranged; is that right?---I'm just trying to recollect. I mean I get a number of inquiries about meetings that have been requested for consultation by the various unions.

PN4351

Right?---I normally advise the managers what are the obligations under the industrial agreements to consult and the Act, where relevant. I also advise them that despite those obligations nothing prevents them, if they believe it's appropriate, having a discussion with the unions in any event on issues. I'm just trying to recall if this is an instance where I may have been requested to give that advice and that maybe a meeting happened; I don't know.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4352

Paragraph 43 I'd like to go to now of Mr Evans' statement?---Okay.

PN4353

Ms Redfern has told you that there was some exchange of letters and Mr Evans, it's in his evidence and I think you were in the Commission at the time as well, that Mr Jamieson informed him that there had been no response to his letters which was taken to be a refusal to meet, in essence, and Ms Redfern has told you that there was a simple breakdown in communication because of a new assistant who hadn't forwarded correspondence to her?---Actually she was quite embarrassed about it because her manager obviously was asking questions as to why there had never been any response to the union and so when I spoke to her about this issue she was - well, the way she spoke to me was she was quite embarrassed.

PN4354

And the first she knew about it was when her boss telephoned her as you say so she was embarrassed about this. Once she learned out it then she sent a letter back immediately?---She also, as I recall, told me that I think she'd left three or four phone messages for the official. Again, as I say, I mean she was embarrassed that her manager had got involved and it appeared that her processes had fallen over.

PN4355

So there were some letter that refer to this which are W12; you don't have those in front of you?---I don't have a copy, no.

PN4356

Can a witness be given a copy of that exhibit? There was an industrial dispute notified; is that right, about this issue, about the failure to consult?---Was there one - - -

PN4357

That's what Ms Redfern has told you?---I have to say around these times the CPSU was rather quick on the draw in a sense in lodging things.

PN4358

Right?---I'm not sure if it was threatened or actually lodged.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4359

Okay, so we'd gone so far as to - - -?---I mean Mr Evans may have rung me and said, we're having problems with this matter, Jahood doesn't appear to want to talk to us, can you help otherwise I'll have to lodge. As I said earlier I get inquiries like this from time to time.

PN4360

She said she met with the respondent immediately that she found out about it. In W12 here she says in her letter dated 7 September. This is the third page along there, "She's been leaving messages for the last two weeks" which takes us back to around about 23 August, around there?---Yes.

PN4361

So she first found out about it on or about 23 August.

PN4362

MR PARRY: Well I object to this evidence. Again, Mr Evans was relying on what he'd been told. This witness clearly doesn't know the detail. All the Commission really has is the two sets of hearsay versions and the actual documents and asking this witness about what's in the documents isn't going to advance the matter in my submission.

PN4363

MR RICH: Mr Wicks is giving evidence about the discussions he's had with Ms Redfern. I guess to the extent that BW7 encompasses the whole of those discussions, then submissions can be made on the documents as they exist. Some of the point of the questions is to clarify what's in exhibit BW7.

PN4364

THE COMMISSIONER: But that can only be to the extent that who arose out of the conversation, can't it?

PN4365

MR RICH: That's right. So to the extent that the conversation is wholly - - -

PN4366

THE COMMISSIONER: Covered those points, if they didn't cover those points it's of little help to me.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4367

MR RICH: That's right, subject to the extent to - because they're mainly really just intended to tease out what was said in a conversation to ensure that it gelled the thoughts in here, but to the extent that it's accepted that this constitutes the whole of the discussion that took place, then I accept that they're - I don't need to further examine - - -

PN4368

MR PARRY: I don't object to being asked questions about the conversations, but interpretations of the document aren't going to advance us here. I'm not objecting to the witness being asked questions about conversations, if the Commission pleases.

PN4369

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thanks Mr Rich.

PN4370

MR RICH: So, Mr Wicks, is it fair to say then that the bullet points that you've got here, bullet points 1 to 3, do constitute the whole of the discussions you had with Ms Redfern, that all that she's told you is put in those - - -?---Yes.

PN4371

There was nothing more that she said, one way or the other?---Other than, as I said earlier, I think she said she left three or four messages when her boss had told her that Mrs Jamieson was writing letters and looking to talk to her.

PN4372

Are you sure she told you that? You didn't put that in your exhibit here?---I think when I prepared this I hadn't seen the exhibit.

PN4373

Sorry, you didn't put this - the exhibit I'm referring to is your notes?---Actually, sorry, my exhibit and I didn't put it in there.

PN4374

No?---No, I didn't put it in there, sorry.

PN4375

Why was that?---I didn't record it. I guess I - - -

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4376

You didn't record it?---No, I didn't record it in my notes.

PN4377

I won't ask you any more questions about that exhibit, about W12, I won't ask you any more about that. Let's move on to paragraph 45, now I just want to confirm here, you said in your discussion with Mr Kier, "the employee did the training as recommended under the fair treatment". Was the fair treatment process, do you know, was it documented, this fair treatment process?---I haven't - - -

PN4378

You don't know?---I haven't seen the documents if they exist.

PN4379

At what point did the fair treatment process get to, do you know, from discussions with Mr Kier?---He indicated that it went to peer review.

PN4380

And it was at the peer review stage that the training was recommended?---I don't know.

PN4381

You don't know that?---No.

PN4382

I understood peer review only to be a process which reviewed, well, a review which looked at the process only, is that what the peer review is?---It looks to see whether the managers have followed the policy in carrying out their reviews, yes.

PN4383

Now, is it true that there were two notifications to the Commission on this matter?---There's been a number of these. It may be the case. I'd need to see them.

PN4384

Well I put it to you that in fact that matter was notified and in fact was listed in the Commission although it was never proceeded with?---Okay.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4385

Would it be fair to say given that the peer review process is a review of the process that's been followed and given that the matters were notified and listed in the Commission that the outcome may not have been a result of the fair treatment process at all, but in fact resulted in a settlement of the dispute notified to the Commission?---I can only reiterate what Mr Kier told me when I spoke to him.

PN4386

He told you that the training came after the fair treatment process?---Well he told me, as I said, that there was a recommendation that the employee be provided with some training.

PN4387

A recommendation from whom?---From the fair treatment process.

PN4388

From the peer review?---I don't know if it was the peer review. But I'm also aware of, for example, the Mr Frank Williams matter, which I was involved in where a placement and training was the outcome of discussions with the union.

PN4389

And that's the matter referred to in paragraph 45, is that right, of Mr Evans' statement?---Is it 45? That's the one we're talking about.

PN4390

Yes?---Although I think the - yes. I did deal with one matter from a - regarding a Mr Frank Williams who was located in Newcastle and training, redeployment training was offered to him by the company and there were discussions with the union around that. If these are the two same matters, then I would have challenged the third dot point of what Mr Kier told me.

PN4391

So that's not correct then?---Well I don't know if they're the same matters.

PN4392

They are?---They are, are they? Okay, I would have challenged him then, because my recollection, and I was involved in the matter, was there were union discussions around how to look after him. I mean that's not to say there wasn't a fair treatment that occurred that I didn't know about.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4393

Okay, but the recommendation that arose - - -?---But I do recall discussions arising out of discussions I'd had with the union about providing him opportunities which may require training, so, yes. I just didn't realise they were the same matters, that's all.

PN4394

In relation to paragraphs 46 and 47, have you ever spoken with the relevant manager there?---I haven't made notes of a conversation with the manager, no.

PN4395

Is it true that you were in part involved in the matter talked about in paragraph 46?---Do you have the name?

PN4396

Paragraph 46 refers to - - - ?---Certainly I was involved in a matter involving four female part-time employees.

PN4397

The local manager there I think was Kylie Neale?---Yes, that rings a bell.

PN4398

I understand that yourself as well as Mr Mossie and possibly Trase Riley was also involved in discussions around those issues?---Yes, I recall talking to Trase about this issue.

PN4399

Do you accept that in the first instance Mr Joley was refused the rights to represent the employees concerned?---I didn't have any - I didn't sort of get involved in that. That sort of issue.

PN4400

Do you accept that there were lengthy discussions around this and it was resolved after the union brought it to your attention?---This was a complicated matter which involved - - -

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4401

Would you just answer the question though. Do you accept that it was resolved after lengthy discussions after the union brought it to your attention? Is that fair?---There were lengthy discussions but I don't know whether they led to the resolution of it because as I say there were complex issues around redundancy agreement, EEO, family responsibilities. It was a complex issue that I certainly had discussions with the union about and there were significant discussions around it. However, there were also significant discussions within Telstra with our legal department around these issues because of the complexity of them and in the end I think all four staff members had their needs met but I can't say that that was a consequence of some agreement reached with the union.]

PN4402

That is not what I was putting to you. I was putting to you more that it the resolution was reached after it was raised by the union with the company and then there were some discussions which took place both with the union and as you say internally?---I don't know if the union - I know the union raised it with me but I don't know whether the staff members themselves raised it with the line management or not. Certainly the union approached me about the issue, yes.

PN4403

I don't have any more questions about BW7. So I will move on from there. I just want to ask you a bit about the way that management works in terms of the responsibilities on local managers and the accountabilities that they have. I think Mr Clifford has made a statement in these proceedings. Have you read Mr Clifford's statement?---Yes, I have. Although not recently.

PN4404

mr Clifford talks about some of the accountabilities that exist and of the fact that Telstra's - some of the changes that have been taking place in Telstra involve placing accountability on the manager to deal with a lot of these employee issues. He says that:

PN4405

Managers are accountable for their people and the output of their people. Supervisors are accountable...(reads)... for managing those issues.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4406

How are those management accountabilities monitored? How does Telstra monitor whether or not managers are meeting those accountabilities?---I think firstly the system in Telstra have been redesigned to provide managers with those authorities so in order to get things done the systems are aligned to managers taking responsibility for their staff and secondly there's obviously the annual review process of managers which is linked to remuneration and the usual things. I think this whole approach is a fairly standard HR, contemporary HR systems.

PN4407

So if we take the accountabilities and authority first. So that you're saying then that if a manager has accountability for resolving issues in relation to leave, etcetera and they also have authority to ultimately determine those issues, with that employee, is that what that means?---Yes.

PN4408

Which is what we were saying before about the fact that managers don't have to call HR, there's no requirement on them calling HR, they're given the power to resolve those issue and the accountability of resolution of those issues?---And resources such as HR to assist them, yes, as required.

PN4409

In terms of the annual review, you say the review is linked to remuneration. How does that work?---Telstra has - well the component of salaries nip, management incentive program, a lot of that is tied to the performance of the organisation. In fact a significant amount but a component of it is tied to the performance of the individual manager and then the terms - well, what is determined as performance I think depends on the year objectives set by the manager's manager and obviously I can't speak for every individual but I imagine where managers are in a leadership role, part of that performance is the quality of the leadership they deliver to their staff.

PN4410

Part of the performance depends upon the output of staff below them as well?---I'd imagine that's certainly the case.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4411

So for example in a call centre, let's say a manager might be responsible, part of the way that the manager is assessed might be according to, you know, the number of calls taken, if that's a relevant indicia - a number of calls taken on average over the review period, might be one of the ways in which you measure a manager's performance ?---I'm not actually intimately aware of call centre KPIs but I imagine there are KPIs for the call centres, financial KPIs, service, quality level, KPIs and the manager is dependent on his or her staff to - and the team - deliver the outputs.

PN4412

So those KPIs would exist for managers in their reviews, KPIs being key performance indicators?---Yes, I would imagine that they would be set for them, yes.

PN4413

That is how manager's performance would in part be determined?---In part, the other parts are obviously things like EBIT in respect to the whole organisation.

PN4414

Now, do you know that there has been a dispute between Telstra and the CPSU in relation to some of these KPIs? One of them being the amount of sick leave taken by staff under their supervision?---I think during the course of reading material here I became aware of disagreement around that, yes, but I'm not sure if I was intimately involved in that particular matter. It might have been before my time.

PN4415

But that's referred to in your BW3 isn't it? If you look at BW3, which is the list of disputes?---Okay, sure. That might have been where I saw it.

PN4416

If you go to page 10 and 11?---Yes.

PN4417

The first one there deals with that issue. That was a dispute that was raised?---Yes.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4418

Do you recall that? You were not around then, were you?---No.

PN4419

Do you know anything about that from talking with Mr O'Keefe?---No.

PN4420

You don't ?---All I would say is it is not unusual for attendants to be a KPI for all businesses.

PN4421

You can object to me if you know differently, but my understanding was that part of that dispute related to KPIs for staff and part KPIs for managers. Do you know whether that is correct or not?---No, but it would not surprise me.

PN4422

Do you know if managers still have KPIs that relate to the sick leave taken by their staff?---I think some managers certainly would. As I say, it is not an uncommon, KPI for managers in all businesses. It is an issue that every business faces, is attendance. It is not uncommon.

PN4423

As you say, the accountabilities that exist, you are not sure exactly the way that they are translated into KPIs or the way that they are - you are not sure that all accountabilities that managers have are necessarily measured or monitored but you know there is the capacity for that to happen?---It is an issue that is managed between the manager and their manager. It is - so, just as the manager is responsible for the staff in his or her team, that person's manager is responsible for that manager.

PN4424

But there is no requirement that the accountabilities be monitored and assessed in terms of the managers meeting those accountabilities or not meeting them as the case may be?---I think it probably gets a bit convoluted but I imagine the manager who is leading the group of staff, their manager would set their capabilities and their manager would be monitoring to ensure that the business needs are met and that they are the right KPIs. So within a particular business I would expect there would be quite a lot of work done around these areas because what we are talking about is the outputs for the business.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4425

But you accept, do you not, that the business needs and the KPIs that are set according to those business needs don't necessarily mean that all accountabilities that Mr Clifford might have mentioned in his statement are necessarily monitored or assessed each review period? That is all I am saying, that there is no requirement that all accountabilities be- - -?---It is impossible from a central position within an organisation as large and complex as Telstra to monitor those things. It is simply not possible.

PN4426

In relation to training again briefly, we asked for the training documents that - external and internal courses and so on that have been carried out and we were provided with a couple of things. Are you familiar with the documents that were provided to us?---About last week I flicked through them. I asked to look at them so I could flick through them.

PN4427

You are aware that there are some courses in here that do deal with - these are courses that are handed out, given to people who are managers involved in the fair treatment process, that some of the training does encompass communication skills, those sorts of issues?---Fair treatment?

PN4428

Not on fair treatment. I am just saying that the courses that we asked for were courses that were delivered to persons who may be involved in the dispute settlement procedures, so in the fair treatment process or in the dispute settlement procedure under the award. Presumably they are the same sorts of people?---Yes.

PN4429

Most of the courses related to communication issues, dealing with difficult people as well as active listening, those sorts of issues?---Is it possible to point out and perhaps let me look at the courses?

PN4430

There was the course that you say that you have delivered to HR people, the advocacy course?---Yes, to about twelve senior HR managers.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4431

There was the EEO contract officer training. The EEO contact officer, what responsibilities do they have?---Under our EEO process as I understand it the contact officer is available for I think it's staff to pursue EEO matters.

PN4432

Are the contact officers trained in the relevant legislation, the way the awards work?---On EEO?

PN4433

Yes?---I'm not intimately aware with that training course. I've never been to it.

PN4434

This is on the first page, which is the letter that was sent. That's the EEO training course. That course provides for training on awards, legislation, etcetera?---It seems from what I've seen it's on EEO which is not contained in awards.

PN4435

Sorry, so it deals with the relevant legislative requirements?---EEO legislation, yes.

PN4436

Then I've got some other documents here which were provided, which are the - I think I've got them all here. That's the remainder of the training which was provided. There were some one and two day courses in relation to new supervisors, etcetera, which there were things like dealing with difficult people and those are no doubt provided externally?---I don't know.

PN4437

You don't know much about them or how they're provided?---No, I don't know who provides them.

PN4438

Whether they're provided across the whole company or just to a couple of people?---I don't know who they are provided to or how many.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4439

Then there's another, I think the second bunch of documents there is interpersonal skills course. Do you recognise that that - it looks like it's provided electronically although it is hard to tell, the first part of the document seems to deal with logging on?---Sort of logging on, yes, it does, most of it seems to.

PN4440

The second half contains the student guide and I think there's also a facilitators guide. Can you see that part of the document?---Yes.

PN4441

Does it appear from that that the sort of training that is provided relates to communication, active listening, those sorts of things?---Yes.

PN4442

Do you know how broadly that training is - - - ?---No.

PN4443

You don't know how broadly that training is provided?---No.

PN4444

But you recognise that there is that training there for managers and these are people who are involved in dispute settling procedure, that's the basis on which the documents were provided, do you accept that to be the case?---No.

PN4445

You don't accept that to be the case?---No.

PN4446

Because you don't know or - - - ?---No, I don't accept that they were - that training was presented to managers to assist in managing the disputes procedure I'd imagine it's more related to the accountabilities managers have to lead the teams that they manage effectively.

PN4447

So when it talks about dealing with conflict and ways of resolving issues in the work place and communication activity listing, in the way they're all tied together, you don't think that that refers to the manager's role in dissolving disputes under the fair treatment process?---I think it can apply there but as my evidence has been I think from things I understand the vast majority of matters don't involve disputes procedures in this particular work force.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4448

But you recognise that the skills that are being taught there are in part dispute resolution skills in terms of active listing trying to reach outcomes that are acceptable to both parties?---Sure.

PN4449

Telstra recognises that those skills or that learning is in part necessary, or must be in some way important to the managers in carrying out those roles?---Our managers are employed and paid to run the technical side of the business and to manage and lead people so yes, that's what they're employed to do.

PN4450

That's what that training is aimed at?---Well as I say I don't know the specifics of whether this training is used at Telstra but that's what training like this would be there for to assist managers to do what they're employed to do.

PN4451

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wicks, can I just check one other matter with you. I'll hand down a copy of an infrastructure services and wholesale agreement. I think all of your agreements are similar in this regard. Again, if I go to the dispute avoidance resolution procedure, you have given me an answer in relation to the award that it only deals with, in Telstra's view, collective disputes?---Yes.

PN4452

Is the same true of the agreement?---My understanding is that it's stronger in terms of the agreement, that the parties negotiating the enterprise agreement agreed on the word "employees" - - -

PN4453

It's got "staff members"?---Sorry, staff members.

PN4454

Yes, and then s apostrophe?---Yes, that's right, referring to a group rather than an individual. I have also, I think there are documents in the hearing relating to these issues where Telstra has said that its understanding of the enterprise agreement was that it would relate to collective agreements.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS XXN MR RICH

PN4455

So an individual can't agree under this procedure either?---In an obviously strict sense we would say no, but as I've said earlier obviously a practical approach is taken and the assistance of the Commission is obviously the company's happy to try and resolve things.

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PARRY [12.37am]

PN4456

MR PARRY: If the Commission pleases, Mr Wicks you were asked some questions in the last few minutes about training, and I think your attention was drawn to a couple of documents, and you said you had only recently seen them, is that the position?---Yes, yes.

PN4457

What is your role with regard to training at Telstra?---Other than specific training on things like advocacy, which Mr Rich referred to, I have no other role in training.

PN4458

Have you been through any of these EEO courses, or supervisor's courses, that Mr Rich took you to?---I haven't been through those courses, no.

PN4459

Are you aware of whether those courses are delivered online, or in group situations or not?---I am not aware of it.

PN4460

Finally on that point, are you aware whether managers are required to attend any of these courses or not?---No, I'm not aware if they are required to attend those courses.

PN4461

If the Commission pleases there is one question which goes to paragraph 13 of Mr Wicks' statement, and refers to his attachment BW2, it concerns a number there, whether it is larger or smaller. Now I acknowledge that this doesn't arise out of cross-examination, it's a fairly straightforward matter.

**** BENJAMIN WICKS RXN MR PARRY

PN4462

THE COMMISSIONER: Clear up the point, yes.

PN4463

MR PARRY: If I could have leave to do that?

PN4464

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN4465

MR PARRY: Mr Wicks, do you have your statement in front of you?---Yes, I do.

PN4466

There is an attachment exhibit BW2, which you might recall I handed to you yesterday and you identified?---Yes.

PN4467

I think in attachment BW2, from the bottom line four up, there is reference to a designation TW, and across there it has numbers of 2356 as coming within dual coverage?---Yes.

PN4468

What is the position with regard to TWs, what are they and does that number accurately reflect, at least on your understanding, the numbers that are so dual covered?---No, the designations we are talking about are TW, TW Holding, TWM and TWX, which are collectively the TW classifications. I have become aware that there was a matter listed before this Commission that was ultimately decided by, I think it was Deputy President Duncan, between the CPU and the CPSU in respect of coverage of those staff. I have read the decisions and as I understand it, the Commission decided that the CPSU only had the ability, or only had the right, to cover the collective TWs who moved from OTC to Telstra in 1992, when OTC merged with Telstra. As a consequence, I investigated as best I could as to how many staff moved, who were in this group, who moved from OTC to Telstra in 1992-1993, and I was advised that it was approximately 500 employees who moved. I then sought to investigate how many of those staff are still working for Telstra, and was advised that that data was unavailable. Accordingly, between - this number of 2356 plus 217 plus 2 plus 3, relating to the four designations, actually amounts to no more

**** BENJAMIN WICKS RXN MR PARRY

than between zero and 500 staff of whom the CPSU has coverage, as a consequence of the Commissioner's decision. So as a result, those numbers are overstated in the amount of somewhere between 2000 and 2500, and those 2000-2500 roles are exclusively covered the CPU.

PN4469

If the Commission pleases I have nothing further of Mr Wicks.

PN4470

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you Mr Wicks, thank you for your evidence. We'll adjourn until 2.15.

PN4471

MR PARRY: As the Commission pleases.

PN4472

MR RICH: Before we do, I anticipated yesterday handing up some documents based upon - after Mr Crosby's evidence, and I might hand those up now before we adjourn just so they are - - -

PN4473

THE COMMISSIONER: Sure.

PN4474

MR RICH: I had to take some copies, if you recall, which I now have somewhere amongst my piles of paper, if you would just bear with me for one second I'll - - -

PN4475

MR PARRY: Might Mr Wicks be able to vacate the witness box?

PN4476

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, you can, thank you Mr Wicks.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.43pm]

PN4477

MR RICH: They were the two articles that Mr Crosby referred to. There was another document as well, which I didn't refer to yesterday. There was a summary of an ACTRAC, referred to ACTRAC study, which was attached to Mr Crosby's statement. I had intended to hand up a copy of the complete report, which I have here. You've been given a copy of the complete report as well, do you have an objection to me tendering that?

PN4478

MR PARRY: No.

PN4479

MR RICH: I would like to tender that document as well, that's just the complete version of the report which was attached in part, or in summary form to Mr Crosby's statement.

PN4480

THE COMMISSIONER: Do you require me to mark these or can they just form part of the record as referred to in Mr Crosby's statement?

PN4481

MR RICH: I'm not sure if Mr Crosby's statement refers to the two articles directly, whether he refers to research, I think in his examination-in-chief he referred to them. It might be worthwhile marking them in case there is any question about which documents we are referring to.

MFI #J14 DOCUMENT "WHAT'S DRIVING THE NEW ECONOMY"

MFI #J15 DOCUMENT "THE IMPACT OF WORKPLACE PRACTICES & INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY ON PRODUCTIVITY"

PN4482

MR RICH: I am happy for the ACTRAC report just to form part of this.

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.44pm]

RESUMES [2.18pm]

PN4483

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Parry.

PN4484

MR PARRY: If the Commission pleases I call Ian Cartwright.

<IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT, SWORN [2.18pm]

PN4485

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Rich, are there any matters you wish to raise?

PN4486

MR RICH: Yes, there are Commissioner. Now a number of these objections I'm going to deal with is it's opinion evidence and I will make those objections although I expect that the ruling will be in accordance with the rulings that have been made already. Some of the objections that I make deal with the fact that the opinion is speculation not back up by any evidence whatsoever and I think I will go to those individually I guess. Paragraph 8 first, the final sentence starting, I consider that the ability, that's simply opinion and I would say speculation really without any evidence to back it up whatsoever and shouldn't be admitted.

PN4487

Paragraph 11, the second sentence I say it's speculation again, it's not related to the example that's given below, it's seemingly not backed up by anything else in the statement apart from Mr Cartwright's opinion. Paragraph 22, the conclusion that's made there is speculation, there's no evidence why that might be the case, it's simply Mr Cartwright's speculation about the reasons for certain things that he set out in his statement and shouldn't be allowed, so that's the last two sentences there actually starting with, this is in large part attributable to. Paragraph 27 - - -

PN4488

THE COMMISSIONER: You withdraw your objection to paragraph 24?

PN4489

MR RICH: Yes, I say nothing about paragraph 24. Paragraph 27 is pure speculation, it's clearly opinion given without any basis and that's particularly on the first two sentences but I think the whole paragraph probably is affected by the same problem and should be not allowed.

PN4490

THE COMMISSIONER: I suppose it depends in paragraph 27 what is meant by the word, disruptive, doesn't it? I mean Mr Cartwright would be in a position to say whether or not that would be disruptive of work flow.

PN4491

MR RICH: Yes. Certainly the second sentence there about whether or not it's necessary is speculation, yes and again is used in paragraph 28 about the potential from managers to be overwhelmed to the last sentence is we say speculation and shouldn't be allowed as is the second sentence in paragraph 31. Those are my only objections.

PN4492

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I don't need to hear from you Mr Parry. In examining those I propose not to delete any of the evidence and I will deal with the evidence in a manner consistent with the earlier rulings. Thank you Mr Parry?

<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR PARRY [2.23pm]

PN4493

MR PARRY: Mr Cartwright, what's your full name and address?---Ian Edward Cartwright, 134 Franklin Street, Eltham, Victoria.

PN4494

Where are you employed?---I'm employed with Telstra.

PN4495

You prepared a statement for these proceedings?---Yes I have.

PN4496

You have a copy of that in front of you?---Yes I do.

PN4497

Paragraph 3 attaches what you describe there as a current organisational chart and looking at that chart the Commission may note that it refers to Mr Rizzo and others so presumably you want to replace that document?---If I could do that please.

PN4498

If I could hand to the Commission and Mr Rich a document which is to replace IC1.

PN4499

THE COMMISSIONER: In its entirety.

PN4500

MR PARRY: IC1 consists of two pages.

PN4501

THE COMMISSIONER: IC2 is the corporate wide shared services operations I think, is it?

PN4502

MR PARRY: Yes, so what we've handed up replaces the lot.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XN MR PARRY

PN4503

Now just staying with IC1 for the time being Mr Cartwright the second page I've handed up which has CEOs direct reports has a David Moffatt for finance and administration reporting to Mr Switkowski of Telstra, the finance and administration productivity director it has Hayden Kelly, director, what's the relationship between Mr Kelly and Mr Moffatt?---Mr Kelly has a direct report to Mr Moffatt.

PN4504

Now, paragraph 10 of your statement refers to advice you've received about three complaints lodged under the fair treatment process in CWSS Ops, what's the position as of today?---I'm informed that three extra complaints have been lodged, that's in the last week.

PN4505

Are those complaints as far as you're aware in the one matter or are they separate matters?---No, they're a single matter.

PN4506

And what do they concern?---They concern an issue where some work is going to finish and the people whose jobs are going to go objected to their jobs being finished, the work has actually finished. The suggestion is that someone else's job should go. That's a very brief understanding that I have.

PN4507

Now Mr Cartwright there's been evidence given in these proceedings by Mr Evans about the matter and I think it's referred to in paragraph 29 of his statement about which concerned a Mr Chandler?---Yes.

PN4508

Do you know Mr Chandler?---Yes I do.

PN4509

How does that come about?---He's a direct report of mine.

PN4510

And you had discussions with him about this industrial matter concerning the taking of leave?---Yes I did.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XN MR PARRY

PN4511

And what's he told you?---He's told me that it was not true, it didn't happen.

PN4512

And what is the position with the taking of leave in his area?---The position of taking leave in our business unit which includes his area is that the people should be taking their leave and I have asked them to manager a situation that we have where we have people with excess leave to manage that leave down, certainly not to take leave away from people or force people to take leave.

PN4513

In paragraph 22 of your statement you're referring in the last sentence to an extremely low level of "disputation or grievances from employees". Within that sentence are you referring to matters notified to the Commission or is it an observation generally in respect of the workplace?---It's an observation for the workplace.

PN4514

In paragraph 27 you were in the Commission, Mr Cartwright, you heard an objection to this and the Commissioner asked in respect of the first sentence:

PN4515

It depends in some ways what you meant by the word disruptive.

PN4516

What did you mean by the word disruptive?---What takes place in workplace is that people have responsibilities, they have jobs to do and with the likelihood of people getting time off to interview employees and supervisors it could mean that the work that I'm asking these people to do as part of their responsibilities doesn't get done so it disrupts, you know, the work and the responsibilities we have for our customers.

PN4517

Now, Mr Evans in these proceedings has put in two statements and there's a second statement which refers to there not being disputes in CWSS and he refers to matters involving credit management; are you aware of that observation by Mr Evans?---Yes, I am.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XN MR PARRY

PN4518

You have a copy of his statement in front of you do you?---Yes, I have.

PN4519

Now, what do you say to paragraph 19 of Mr Evans' second statement?---The three issues that he's raised; well, firstly, these people don't work for me, okay? Credit Management doesn't work for my business unit.

PN4520

Right?---So the point I would make is I'm not aware of any of those issues that he's raised there because they don't work for me. He's made the statement that Credit Management is a part of Corporate Wire Shared Service Operations and they're not.

PN4521

What about paragraph 20 which refers to, as he describes it, a dispute in respect of 16 employees employed under the Corporate Business Unit Enterprise Agreement and he goes on advice from Lee Piper and he refers to Ms Piper informing him that she negotiated a resolution to a dispute with Mr Cartwright after threatening to escalate the matter to the Commission?---I had several discussions with Ms Piper about this issue. We didn't negotiate a resolution; that's absolutely untrue. What took place was that I had actually asked her for some advice, if you like, as to the way forward and a suggestion on the way forward because - - -

PN4522

What was the issue? Perhaps if you tell the Commission what the issue was and start at the beginning?---All right, sorry. We had 6 people, it wasn't 16 people, that were a part of an enterprise agreement and they were grandfathered as a result of that enterprise agreement and I don't really understand, being honest, what the actual extent of this grandfather phrase means but at the end of the day they didn't go across, they were under the company rate, they didn't move across on to the enterprise agreement and the union had approached, as she has pointed out here, the managers of these people and also the one up manager from that manager to try and work out a resolution. Now, I was advised that the union may get in touch with me because there was an issue with these people so I said, that's fine, and they did. Then I got the background data to what had taken place, sought some advice from HR because I didn't understand what the real issue was, I was under the

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XN MR PARRY

impression that people had moved across on the EA and I'm now being told that some people didn't. So I sought advice and the advice was, well, that was part of the agreement, we can't go outside of the agreement, we can't change it, and I was not convinced that that probably was, you know, the situation as it should be. I didn't think that was right so I sought further advice and in doing so I had kept Ms Piper across the, you know, issues as they were being raised with me, I had a couple of phone messages and a couple of phone discussions and the second last time I spoke to her was when I went back to her and said, look, I'm really struggling, I don't think there's a way forward here, and that's where I said I may need some help from you, some assistance, and that's where she made the statement, well, I could always take you to the AIRC, but my reading of her statement was it was more of a throw-away line than a threat and I said, well, I'd rather you didn't do that, I'm sure that we're able to work our way forward on this one so could you go away and check within your union and find out, you know, is there a way forward and can you get back to me. She agreed to do that. That was the last time that we discussed the issue apart from when I rang her to tell her that I'd sought further advice from within our company and that these people were going to be moved on to the company rate and she was very happy with that outcome but, you know, if you were to ask me was that a negotiation, absolutely not; I did it all and I kept her informed.

PN4523

THE COMMISSIONER: We don't like to view visits as a threat either?---Well, so far it hasn't been too threatening.

PN4524

MR PARRY: We'll leave that one there, Mr Cartwright. If the Commission pleases that's the evidence of Mr Cartwright. I tender the witness' statement.

PN4525

THE COMMISSIONER: W25.

EXHIBIT #W25 STATEMENT OF MR CARTWRIGHT

PN4526

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Rich?

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICH [2.35pm]

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4527

MR RICH: Mr Cartwright, can I just first ask you, you've got 1260 employees you say in CWSS Ops?---Yes.

PN4528

You've got 8 managers reporting to you who presumably have other managers under their supervision who then manage the remainder of those 1200-odd staff who aren't managers, if that makes sense. How do those front-line staff - do they work in call centres, do they work in office environments; what's the - - -?---I have people spread right around Australia.

PN4529

Okay?---Predominantly they're in office environments, central business district office environments but we also - part of my responsibility is providing general administration support for our company and that's in the main buildings but also out in the field where we have line depots, we have a team leader that's in a depot, I provide support to that person so that could be a person and it can be part time, it can be a couple of hours a week depending on the level of support that's required and they spread from Darwin through to, you know, right through the centre of Australia, right around, Perth, so they're everywhere, placed everywhere these people.

PN4530

Okay. So they're all in that office environment; none of them work in call centre type environments?---I have a very, very small call centre which is our pay by phone. So if you've ever paid your phone bill and used a credit card and you've rung up and you've made a mistake you get put through to an operator so probably maybe a dozen or less people that answer phones and that's the closest I have to a call centre. So not the call centre environment, no, absolutely not.

PN4531

You make the statement a number of times that "Seeking to resolve issues on an informal basis first without moving to more formal procedures is conducive to good working relationships"; this is based upon, what, your experience in dealing with the managers directly below you?---That's a statement in relation to the managers that work for me in my business unit, yes, absolutely.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4532

So it's not a statement based upon any direct experience of working with frontline staff yourself in Telstra or is it based upon what managers have told you about the way they work with staff?---Frontline staff that work for me?

PN4533

Yes, is it just the relationship that you have with your direct reports that you're talking about or are you talking about something broader?---No, something broader.

PN4534

Based upon what experience that you have?---Well, I spend a lot of time out in the field, I go and see my staff. Quite obviously with 1200 people I'm not going to get to see the 1200 every year but I have a process where I do go out and I spend time with staff. I sit in with them. I understand what they do. That's part of my role to be visible to them given they're, as I explained earlier, dispersed widely over Australia; I need to spend some time with these people and I do that.

PN4535

So, you sit down with them while they're working? What do you do, you just sort of walk up - - -?---I sit down them with them when they're working. I give presentations on matters of relevance. I talk to them about any issue that they want to talk to me about. It doesn't haven't to be work related. I'm happy to - - -

PN4536

In a sort of a informal - come with the boss, have a chat sort of thing?---In an informal - it takes the form of formal presentations in a theatrette or in a, in a - particularly with the bigger groups. But where I can, I would sit in a conference room, around a table like this and I'll talk for you know whatever I need to say and then it's open. Open forum so I talk to the people and I do sit in - and sit in with people - you know sit in with people while they're doing their work. And if I need to understand something, I'll go and sit with these people to understand what it is if there's an issue.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4537

So this is the sort of informal basis - - -?---I try to make those discussions informal and when you think about dealing with your staff do you - you know, I don't think in terms of me being the boss, they being the, you know, they being the workers and what I say goes. That's not, that's not - you don't operate like that. But I got to say there are people that still think in terms of, of he's the boss, we better be careful what we say. So what I try and do is get people to understand that I'm just like them and happy to discuss any issue and I think as the years have gone by it works well.

PN4538

You're quite a senior manager. That's right?---Yes, I'm a level three manager in the company, yes.

PN4539

So in terms of when you're going and visiting staff. A visit for you is quite a - - -?---Yes, it is, it is. It's an occasion.

PN4540

Yes, okay?---I try not to play on that. But it is. That's a fair call, yes.

PN4541

So this is the basis upon which you make this statement that good working relationships are fostered by these sort of informal - - -?---Party, because I get feedback at that time, yes. And I, you know, the managers that I have working for me I've - in some cases I've know for a long time. I've worked with them for a long time. I know how they work.

PN4542

Okay. Now you recognise I assume that there is some usefulness in having a formal process after an informal process. I assume that's implicit in what you say in that paragraph eight there. Would that be fair enough? I presume that not everything can be resolved informally and therefore the formal process is appropriate?---Yes, and it will go through the fair treatment. Yes.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4543

Okay. What's your understanding of the proposal that the union's putting? You make some comment upon it so I just want to understand the basis of which you understand that proposal to be?---My understand is that, is that the union are looking for more than just - or they're looking to be involved right from the very start. They're looking for people to be able to be trained in what they believe is, you know, some training that the delegates need to be, you know, to undertake. They need to, you know, they're wanting time put aside for people to be able to be interviewed. They want full documentation. They want rooms set aside or areas set aside where people can undertake interviews.

PN4544

Okay. So in terms of this informal sort of process. Is it your view that this informal way that disputes can be resolved will be effected by the implication? Is that the basis upon which you make these comments?---I think the informal approach first is the, is the sensible approach.

PN4545

Is the reason you make these comments that you think that the application that the union has made will effect the ability for those informal processes to occur?---There is a potential for it to impact on it. Yes.

PN4546

Right. Why do you say that?---If, if in a discussion that you - that I would have. For an example, if I wanted to have with one of my staff members and I had a union delegate sitting there asking questions, representing that person. You know, that relationship that I have with the staff member that, you know, that I've tried to build up and that my manager's built up, disappears because it's not an informal discussion.

PN4547

So, you're aware that the process doesn't require a union - or the proposed process doesn't a require a union representative. It simply says that if the employee wants to have a union representative, then that's an option that they're able to exercise?---It makes a statement about representation, doesn't it?

PN4548

Yes. It's not a requirement but it's an option. Do you recognise that?---I recognise that. Yes.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4549

So what would you do at the moment if the employee didn't want to speak to you unless they had representation? What would you do the way the process currently exists?---I would, I would let that happen.

PN4550

You would let that happen. So what's the difference then between what you're saying you're currently doing - - -?---Under the current scenario where someone would come along to observe.

PN4551

Okay. So you would let them observe?---Yes.

PN4552

If someone wanted an observer, you would let them observe. But if someone didn't want to speak to about representation, you're saying that you would allow them that representation but only to the extent that they observe and say nothing?---That's what I do, yes.

PN4553

Because it seems to me that in terms of the good working relationship and the trust and so on that you say is important to the way that things are resolved in your workplace, that if someone honestly feels that they are uncomfortable talking to you directly and wants to have a representative talk for them or to represent them to you, that to deny that probably does more harm to the relationship than good, wouldn't you say?---I suppose my answer to that is that I've never had to experience that situation. It hasn't - it's never happened, so - - -

PN4554

So it's never been that anybody's insisted on representation with you?---No.

PN4555

So, presumably if no-one insisted on representation then that wouldn't change under the current - I mean there's no representation forced upon you under the current proposal because the current proposal doesn't require representation. It allows it if the employee wishes for it but you're saying that it's never been requested in your experience personally?---Not with me personally. No it hasn't.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4556

Right. So you can't make any comment about it in terms of how it might effect the relationship of trust and you know, if you refuse it?---Because I haven't experienced it, no.

PN4557

Okay. Can I ask about manager's accountability? I just want to confirm the way this works. Managers are accountable for the performance of their staff?---Yes.

PN4558

And they're accountable for the relationships that they have with their staff, is that right? In terms of the communication that they have with their staff?---Not sure if they're accountable for the communications they have with their staff.

PN4559

Right - - -?---I don't know how you would - - -?---

PN4560

Would you express it a different way?---I'm unsure as to what it is you're asking.

PN4561

Mr Clifford, refers to some accountabilities and he states that:

PN4562

Supervisors are accountable for their ability to communicate with employees under their supervision.

PN4563

And he goes on:

PN4564

And they are required to respond in an appropriate and timely manner to their concerns.

PN4565

Is that - - -?---These are the values that was - that was spoken about earlier?

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4566

No. It's a statement that he makes. I might read it again if you want:

PN4567

Supervisors are accountable ...(reads)... during annual performance reviews.

PN4568

Is that correct?---I think that managers are accountable for the way that they manage their staff, yes.

PN4569

Okay. And the way they communicate with them?---That's a part of managing staff is communication. Absolutely.

PN4570

So on one hand there's an accountability that relates to the financial performance of the business unit that they're - or of the part of the business that they're managing?---Yes.

PN4571

And to the output of staff?---And they're easily measured, yes, yes.

PN4572

And then there's these accountabilities that relate to communication. Does that also include - - -?---Perhaps - can I give you an example of communication and accountability.

PN4573

Yes?---Some of my managers, not all of them, some of them, particularly those that have responsibilities for people in those wide areas that I spoke about earlier. You know, one of the accountabilities is to get out to see these people. To be visible. To attend their team briefs personally and to communicate with them. And they're measured on how many times they go out and see these people and speak to them. So that would be fair to say that.

PN4574

What about they way that they apply the fair treatment process, for example? Is there any accountability around that, about the number of for example, the number of grievances that come through their - - -?---It's not in the - it's not in the accountability of any managers that report to me and it's not it mine either.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4575

Right, so there's no assessment done of - you know, if for example you find that there are a large number of grievances or a large number of fair treatment applications being made in one manager's area. There's no accountability that relates to that?---I think as that person's manager, I'd be wanting to understand why there were so many.

PN4576

So there is an accountability in the sense that there might be a view that they're badly managing or something?---That could be a view that could be taken, yes. There could be other reasons for the fact that there are fair treatment processes going through. But again, as I said earlier, you know, I was aware of three and three more recently for one issue in a number of issues. So there's not a lot that take place.

PN4577

Do you recognise that if there are a number of grievances coming through a number fair treatment applications being made in one area that that would be something that would be reviewed at the annual performance management type review that occurs with a manager depending upon the circumstances?---If a manager waits to the review process once a year to be making those sorts of comments he is probably not managing well. I would expect that if I was aware of that happening earlier I would do something about it long before the annual review took place.

PN4578

But if nothing had been done then it would definitely be reviewed at that stage anyway?---If they had been brought to my attention.

PN4579

But it is not as a matter of course that those sort of things are considered in review type periods?---As I said there is no, it is not part or the accountability that I have with my managers or that I have with my manager.

PN4580

Given what you've told me in relation to the statement you have made there in paragraph 8 about the resolution of issues and the importance of good working relationships and so on, do you think that your statement in paragraph 25 which relates to who you are commenting on the CPSU proposals. Do you really think that the union proposal would as you say militate against the operational culture?---I think it would, yes.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4581

Even though there's the continued ability for managers and staff to resolve things informally, even though if someone wanted representation, it is quite possible that you would allow it now just as the proposal is for it to be allowed because to not allow it would be to potentially affect this relationship of trust, even given all those things you still think that it would - the operational culture of Telstra is somehow adversely affected by the proposal?---I do.

PN4582

I must say I don't understand why given what you've said. Can you explain?---I think we've worked pretty hard as a company to make managers accountable. I mean, I don't want to go back into the past and I haven't been involved but my managers and myself, I've got to take that as one of our prime responsibilities to make sure that our staff have all the necessary tools to do the job properly and I think that this is a part of that.

PN4583

So why is that better than managing people if the people they are managing have a right to have a representative involved but aren't quite - how does that affect the manager's ability for dealing with that individual?---You are talking about if this - - -

PN4584

Yes, given under the proposed clause, yes?---Well at this point in time, someone could come in and observe and if someone wants to do it they could do that. The process is really about the manager and the person.

PN4585

But that observation doesn't happen until later in the process at the moment does it?---No. What we are saying here under this is that from a very early stage someone could be representing so that the relationship between the manager and the staff member isn't there. Someone else is doing that representation. So what logically would a manager do?

PN4586

Well presumably, this is what I put to you before, presumably if an employee refuses to meet with you at the moment because they want representation then what would a manager do, I mean it is the same - - -?---You asked me to make a comment on that and I haven't had that experience.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4587

I am saying therefore if you haven't personally had that experience - you are making statements here that aren't based upon your personal experience either presumably?---I am certainly making a statement here on what I believe what would happen.

PN4588

But not upon your personal experience because you don't know what would happen in the alternative?---Because I haven't been in that specific situation.

PN4589

So this is speculation then, really?---It is my view.

PN4590

Thank you.

PN4591

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Cartwright can assist men with disciplinary procedures, if you've got somebody in that very small call centre that you referred to earlier and let us say they are abusive to a client and that is overheard, that would give rise to a disciplinary procedure I would imagine?---I would suggest it would, yes.

PN4592

Who does that?---That would be the person, you know the manager of - - -

PN4593

The team leader?---Could be the team leader, yes.

PN4594

The manager of that area?---I think the team leader would be the person initially.

PN4595

What is the first stage of the Telstra disciplinary procedure, let us say for something that didn't lead to summary dismissal?---I am probably not the right person to ask that question. I couldn't tell you the process to go through from a disciplinary point of view.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4596

All right thank you.

PN4597

MR RICH: Now during the fair treatment process the manager who is doing the review either at the first stage the one up manager or the two up manager, they have access to advice from HR, is that right?---Yes if they require it, yes.

PN4598

Does HR sit in on the meetings if asked or do they just give advice over the phone?---I can't answer that.

PN4599

You don't know?---Don't know the answer to that.

PN4600

But it may that HR sits in - - - ?---I have not sat in on one myself, so I can't make that call. The certainly give advice over the phone. As to whether they sit in on it I can't answer that.

PN4601

So you're not sure if HR sits in. But it may be that may they do in some circumstances?---I'm not aware of whether they do or whether they don't so I can only be guessing to give you that answer.

PN4602

Now, we've had evidence of the way that the fair treatment process works and presumably there's the first level review, it is done by the one up manager, which has to be at a minimum level of 5 is that right?---Yes, that's correct.

PN4603

So sometimes a decision is made by a team leader who might be level six, is that right?---Yes.

PN4604

So the decision that is being reviewed is made by a level 6 person, the grievance if you like is between that level 6 manager and the individual?---Yes.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4605

Then it goes to someone above and that can potentially got to someone above that. Do you view the first level of manager who does the review as a third party in the process?---I don't think I understand your question.

PN4606

We use the term third party?---I am just trying to get it third party as in somebody independent.

PN4607

What I'm asking you what - you used the term so I guess that is context in which I'm asking you. Do you view the manager who is doing the review as the third party whether or not involved in the actual decision or the - - -?---My use of third party is somebody outside.

PN4608

Outside what?---Outside of the process. For example, a representative of the person. So a representative of a person is a third party. So I wouldn't, not that I have ever thought of it, wouldn't think that team leader level 6, a person would be viewed as a third party.

PN4609

But the manager, wasn't involved in the original decision - the manager who is doing the review who wasn't involved in the original decision, they're not a third party, is that your view?---My use of the word third party is to do with, for example, somebody who would come and represent the person, a third party. So it is probably in terms of 1, 2, 3, no. Just somebody that was external.

PN4610

Someone external to the people who the dispute is between?---Someone who is called on to represent.

PN4611

So we are talking about representative. When you say third party you just mean a representative?---That is what I said, yes.

PN4612

And that would be the case whether or not the representative is a union member or not a union member, they might be just a friend and running support for the individual?---That would be the case.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4613

So currently a process in which a third party can be involved in terms of as an observer, it's recognised that that's a right that people have, is that right?---That's my understanding, yes.

PN4614

So you're view then is third parties are currently already involved in the process but just less - - - ?---They're involved as an observer, yes.

PN4615

If I can take you to paragraph 11 of your statement. We're talking here, are we, where you talk about the grievances that are being made and why they do or why they don't reach a certain point through one hour aren't resolved or escalated. Are we talking about just in your area?---My area.

PN4616

So your opinion is based upon your experience. You sound like you haven't had a lot of involvement in the fair treatment process, so we're not talking about your personal experience here then?---No, I have been involved in issues when I've been contacted by a staff member.

PN4617

You're saying most of the grievances, so you're referring - - - ?---Most of the grievances - - -

PN4618

How are you aware of all these grievances if they're resolved?---Because I have weekly team briefs with my direct reports and if there are any issues that are happening they get raised as a part of that team brief.

PN4619

So your direct reports are these eight managers, some regional managers and - - - ?---There's probably four or five other people that attend those briefings as well who are people that work with us but that's who they are, yes.

PN4620

Then those people, say the regional manager for example will have how many managers underneath them?---He could have upwards of 8-10.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4621

Managers?---Yes.

PN4622

Underneath those managers we have the staff who are doing the - - - ?---Under those managers we have team leaders and under those team leaders we have our staff.

PN4623

You're saying that at these meetings that you have with your direct reports, a couple of steps up the chain - - - ?---Yes, that cascade down the chain, yes.

PN4624

So what cascades?---If I have a team brief, what it is that we do at these team briefs, they're held every week. I, on a Monday, I get a team brief from my manager on the Monday evening and that's a briefing of issues that are happening in the company and a briefing of the senior leadership team which is our CEO and his direct reports which happens every Monday morning, first thing Monday mornings. So I get a briefing on that. I then provide that to my managers and that's the first part of the brief. The second part they then report to me on things like productivity or health and safety issues, travel that they need to do and that needs to be approved. So we talk about general issues that are happening in the business. I then get a number of reports from the people that run our IT, the HR people attend it as well. So if there's anything happening within HR they can provide that information. I invite along one of the level 5 managers that I have. So there's myself, there's the next level down, and underneath that manager level an individual comes along each Monday or phones in mostly and provides an update on what they do. So that is the process and then that team brief that I've given gets customised and moved down and anything relevant out of that team brief for the next level, it comes down the line and then down the line. That cascades down the line. That's the process that we undertake.

PN4625

That's the process by which you become aware of the grievances which are being raised in the workplace?---One of the processes, yes. Another process could be the manager gets on the phone and tells me.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4626

But there's no instituted - - - ?---It's not a formal process, no.

PN4627

For a hit and miss in a sense. I mean you're not suggesting that through these weekly meetings that all the grievances and all the issues that are being raised and resolved - - - ?---Absolutely not, no, absolutely not.

PN4628

So in terms of your recognition of how most grievances might be resolved, you are only aware of grievances that are raised with you because they haven't been hit on the head, because they've been resolved or because they've gone away, presumably, is that right?---That they come to me?

PN4629

Yes?---Probably both. I have had a couple that have come to me directly as a result of me being out as I indicated earlier and talking to people and explaining they can contact me. So I've had a few that come through like that.

PN4630

So you get some direct which you resolve and which informant you're saying here?---Yes.

PN4631

The other ones are the ones that aren't resolved and that are issues that are fed up through the line to you?---Yes. That's one way and then the other way I find out about those is when I ask the question. What issues are we being faced with over a period of time and they come back and tell me.

PN4632

But I put it to you that you really don't know and you have no way of really knowing how most of the grievances might be resolved because you don't know the nature of all the grievances are?---Apart from being told by my managers that that's how they resolve their issues, that's the information that they have given to me and I would expect that to be true and accurate.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4633

When we say, resolve, we mean the issues are no longer around presumably, we don't mean that necessarily the employee is happy with the outcome or that the outcome is in accordance with the award necessarily. It just means that it's not a problem any more, is that what it means?---No, it doesn't. Look, some issues will be resolved in favour of the employee, some will be as the policy or procedure dictates. But I am not going to sit here and tell you that there was a percentage that go one way or the other. I don't know that. I think you understand that. But, yes, there are some. I mean the example I gave when Mr Parry asked me about the six people. I mean I could have walked away from that one after the advice that I got. But I didn't and the six people got the pay rise and got the backdated pay. So I think that it doesn't have to be that it's, we've resolved it and the person didn't win so that we'll just forget about it, it's resolved. I was fairly keen to do what I believed to be the right thing there. So I don't think it's just a matter of getting that answer. I was being told this is the way you've got to go and I just didn't think it was right.

PN4634

Do you have union delegates in your area that you're aware of?---Yes.

PN4635

You do and do your managers have relationships with them?---They work for these people so - - -

PN4636

Sorry, I mean in their capacity as the union representative?---Look, from time to time, yes, they would have, yes.

PN4637

Do you know much about those relationships?---I don't know a lot about those relationships. I know a couple of people who are delegates personally but from a personal involvement on a delegate basis, no, I haven't been involved with them.

PN4638

So you don't know for example whether or not matters are resolved as in formal level with the involvement of the delegates sometimes or without the involvement of delegates or - - - ?---There would be occasions for both, absolutely.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4639

You referred to the number of workplace committees in the following paragraph, paragraph 12. Those committees, I mean you're only able to raise certain issues through those processes, aren't you? Those two committees aren't - - - ?---Well, health and safety, primarily health and safety issues, yes. But it's a grouping of people that get together. It's an opportunity if there's other issues that need to be raised that there's an opportunity to raise them.

PN4640

Is that - I mean l guess lunch time might be an opportunity to raise issues in the sense that people meet. Is it a formal part of the purpose of the - - -?---It's a formal process for Occupational Health and Safety issues, absolutely.

PN4641

For OH&S issues, that's my point?---Yes.

PN4642

And equally the EEO representative or the EEO procedure relates to EEO complaints, not to complaints in general?---Yes, they do. That's not to say that someone would come to a person that they know they can trust with another issue and it may not necessarily be an EEO issue and then they would be, you know, be advised.

PN4643

They would be advised to go and see someone else who wasn't an EEO representative presumably, would that be right?---They'd be advised to go and speak to the right person about their issue, yes.

PN4644

You talk about employee awareness and the induction program which you're familiar with, I take it, given that you've made some statements about it in your statement here?---I'm aware that we have an induction program, yes. I haven't personally sat through the induction program, no.

PN4645

You haven't personally sat through it?---No, I have not.

PN4646

So the information in here, where does that come from? That's from you talking to other people, is it?---It is.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4647

And other people have informed you that this is the way the procedure works?---Yes.

PN4648

So you really don't know much about whether or not that's true or not?---I would expect that it's true.

PN4649

But you don't know?---I mean why would they tell me - - -

PN4650

No, I'm just saying, you don't know, you're just told this?---That's what I've been told and I would expect that's true, yes.

PN4651

Do you have cause yourself to access the company's intranet very often?---I do access the intranet, yes. Well I access it every day. It's a fairly big system.

PN4652

Right, I haven't used it, so it's a big system?---A huge system. It has a lot of information on it, yes.

PN4653

Have you ever had cause to access Telstra's - the relevant awards, for example, that apply to people in your area?---No.

PN4654

You haven't?---No.

PN4655

So that part of the site, you're not necessarily familiar with that part of the intranet site?---I've never been in it.

PN4656

So you can't record upon how easy it is to find those sorts of documents on the intranet?---Not those specific documents, I couldn't comment.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4657

This Best of Health program you referred to in paragraph 15?---Yes.

PN4658

I'm sure it's a good initiative, it sounds like it would be nice to go along and get massaged and get told how to eat right but I don't see that it relates to exploring grievances at the work place?---Look, it's again another opportunity where people get together and I can give you an example. I sat in on a team brief that was out in Victoria, Northgate, and we had a - it was a combination team brief and it was a combination Best of Health and some issues were raised about relief and, you know, impact on your jobs which is not generally the sort of thing that would come up as a part of your Best of Health as a part of - could have come up as part of the team brief.

PN4659

It could have come up as part of the team brief?---It could have because that's an opportunity for people to talk about but that issue was raised at that time. It was part of it, you know, we - - -

PN4660

Who's it run by this Best of Health program?---Have two companies providing the programs to us. We have Mayne Health do all of corporate wide shared services up until recently and Fleet, the Fleet people who are part of the productivity directorate who now work for me had the API which is the Australia Postal Institute I think providing that very similar, if you look at the programs, very similar, same sorts of things, you know, stress management, health, testing, you know, health tests, cholesterol, all that sort of thing, exercise.

PN4661

So staff go along in groups, do they, to attend these things run by - - -?---Group or individual, it's a program that I fund and it's a program that I allow the staff in each of the regions or work groups to determine what they actually want to do. If you looked at the programs that we have, I mean there'd be no time for work, that's all you'd be doing, you know, if you did everything, quite obviously you can't do that so they actually select as a group, make a decision about what aspect they want to take up with the program and then they make their decision locally and then away they go. So it could be individual, I mean the massages are individual, right, but you know where we have people come on and talk about health issues, men's health, you know, women's health issues - - -

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4662

So he'll come in and give the talks about things and that's - - -?---We get people to come in and do those presentations or it can be that, you know, the massage, quite obviously somebody comes and does the massage. At the one that I attended I spoke of it was a nutritionist came along to talk about and she actually prepared the food at the time and people sat around, we ate the food and listened to stories of things that she'd done, look, it is a good experience. Can I tell you that when you look at staff and sort of satisfaction at work these sorts of things assist in, you know, from a sick leave point of view. It's one of the ways that, you know, people see the company giving something back and it's certainly of value.

PN4663

THE COMMISSIONER: Are these matters done during working time, Mr Cartwright?---A combination, working time and outside. I mean there's one coming up which is a family day where the family are involved as well. It's coming up very soon in Melbourne and it's at the museum so there's an afternoon at the museum and it's involving family. It's work like balance type stuff, you know, which is pretty important. And it is a very good program I've got to say that works well.

PN4664

MR RICH: Following on from the Commissioner's question usually though the majority of the activities if you like that are provided for under the program are conducted on work time?---I'd say no, majority wouldn't be a fair call. No, they do do their own time.

PN4665

So massages are on their own time?---No, the massages aren't, absolutely not.

PN4666

Massages are on work time?---Mostly on work time, some are outside.

PN4667

And the talks about nutrition for example, the example you gave, that was on work time?---Yes, it was on work time, that one.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4668

The advice on work life balance, that sort of thing?---A number of the groups and particularly the people in Adelaide and Perth like to get out at lunch time and go off and go for a walk, have a barbecue, a healthy barbecue somewhere after hours. They do that sort of thing. As I said the best of the family days particularly are all out of - they're weekends.

PN4669

In terms of the other procedures, if someone is going to go and talk to - and make an equal opportunity complaint and talk to the EEO officer, does that happen on work time? You don't know?---I would suggest that it happens during the working day, yes.

PN4670

And equally the OH&S committees, when do they meet to discuss - - -?---They meet during the working day as well.

PN4671

So all those things must be at some significant cost to the company?---Health and safety is - lost time injury is a significant cost to our company.

PN4672

And EEO?---EEO, I'm just trying to think of how many cases, you know, I can think of one probably in the last five or six years that I've come across.

PN4673

So it's about limiting your liability?---Sorry?

PN4674

It's a balance to the cost you'd incur if you didn't run the programs or you didn't - - -?---No, I'm saying that the cost for lost time injuries when you talk about health and safety and what cost that has health and safety is very important in our company, absolutely, particularly out in the field where people are out, they're in ditches, they're digging, they're doing whatever, so health and safety is a very strong focus in our company. Now, you would say, well then, none of your people are out digging ditches, they're not but they're lifting boxes, they're moving things and it's just an issue with me, it's just as big an issue with me as well and I think if I was to quote you the lost time injuries where someone's actually hurt themself and off work the last financial year I was running about

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

17 or 18, with the year nearly at a close I'm running about eight or nine at this point in time so, you know, there's been a significant downside and I would put that down in part certainly to the work of these committees that say when you add up the cost of people off work it's a small cost for me to have a committee that, you know, that can address issues potentially before they become a problem.

PN4675

So it's about addressing issues before they become a problem and start incurring costs elsewhere whether it be by through lost time, work or other costs, I mean is that how you assess cost by balancing the cost that might be incurred and trying to offset that by - - -?---In this case specific I think we're bound to have those committees anyway. I think you'll find in some states, I'm not 100 per cent sure of the - - -

PN4676

But the assessment you're making about whether it's a good thing or a bad thing and the way that the cost is determined, those are the sort of considerations you'll take into account?---Some of the considerations certainly, yes.

PN4677

And the same presumably with the work life balance health, what's it called again, sorry, the?---It's an opportunity for me to give something back from the company as well, as I said, with sick leave. I mean, we averaged, a number of years ago we were averaging 14 to 15 days off a year person. I'm running now, last year I had the lowest level ever and it was just under six, I'm marginally higher this year but carers leave has impacted on that. So, I'm running pretty much the same.

PN4678

But presumably through carers leave and things like that you are giving something back again, aren't you?---The absolute number has been impacted because there's more leave being added into the equation.

PN4679

But it's a justifiable cost given the nature of the entitlement?---Absolutely, yes.

PN4680

If I can take you to paragraph 22 of your statement again, Mr Parry asked you a question about what disputation and grievances from employees meant in that paragraph and you said it didn't just mean matters notified at the Commission, you were talking more generally, is that fair enough?---Yes.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4681

Would that be a fair summary of what you said to Mr Parry?---Which was the?

PN4682

Sorry, Mr Parry referred you to paragraph 22 and to the last line there where you refer to low levels of "disputation" in inverted commas or grievances from employees and he asked you whether or not you were - - -?---I said that was a general.

PN4683

So, you are not just referring to matters notified to the Commission?---No.

PN4684

But equally - - -?---But in the first couple of sentences absolutely, that was what I was referring to.

PN4685

But the last reference there to disputation is not just in relation to - - -?---I could perhaps have used a different word, I could've used issues.

PN4686

Recognising you are a Level 3 manager and given that the answers you've already given about the way in which you learn about what goes on in the field, do you really think you are qualified to express a view about the way that - about the level of disputation given, I mean, especially if issues, if you are using the word, disputation to mean sort of issues, if those issues are resolved?---As I said earlier,I don't only hear about the ones that need to be brought to my attention, I do hear about other issues that happen as part of the interaction I have with my managers.

PN4687

So, it's a very hit and miss type of process though in terms of what you find about, is it?---It's not a disciplined, give me a report, how many discussions about issues did you have this week, absolutely not that. But I don't think hit and miss is a fair comment either.

PN4688

Do you know when all these changes were taking place that you refer to in paragraph 19, was the union being consulted, do you know?---Yes.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4689

The union was being consulted during this process, do you know if the union was talking to employees in Telstra about what was going on?---I'm not aware that they were talking to the employees. Let me look at a couple of these where we've rationalised, can we go through the accounts payable, receivables, cost accounting. I was meeting regularly with the CPSU to give them updates on what was happening and yes, absolutely. But as to whether they were going out talking, I assume they were. I do know they were in the case of the Geelong closure that's in the accounts payable, they certainly would've been talking to those people because that site was closed and they were talking with them. But as to the others I couldn't say.

PN4690

These site closures we're talking about in paragraph 19, they are all in the context of the 10,000 job cuts over two years or whatever it was, that Mr Switkowski announced in 2000 or 1999 or whenever it was?---I'm not aware of that statement.

PN4691

I'm sorry?---But this is over the period I've specified here.

PN4692

Yes, 1997 to 2002 predominantly, yes?---Yes.

PN4693

So, it's in the context of large job losses elsewhere in the company as well in terms of the rationalisation of call centres and those sort of programs that were going on a the same time?---If that's what his statement referred to I'm not aware of that statement, so I couldn't say. But if you look at the next paragraph 20, there were staff losses certainly in these exercises.

PN4694

The proposition I was putting to you is that the job cuts referred to in paragraph 20 and the site closures that you refer to in paragraph 19 were occurring at the same time as there were large job losses elsewhere in the company, you must have been broadly aware?---Yes.

PN4695

So generally, Telstra has been going through a period of quite significant down sizing, hasn't it, in the last couple of years?---Yes.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4696

In terms of your conclusion about the reason for the low level of disputes do you think that it could in part have been from the fact that, for the fact that the union was being consulted and was talking directly to the staff as well, so there was extra communication there?---As I said, I'm aware they were talking in Geelong.

PN4697

Do you think that might be one of the reasons why there were no disputes surrounding the - - -?---I'd say that that's probably - there's a very low chance of that being the reason.

PN4698

It may be a factor?---A very minor factor.

PN4699

Why do you say that?---Because I'm not aware they were speaking and in some cases I know they wouldn't have been speaking with some of the people and I know the way that we managed the exercise.

PN4700

You said before that you know that they were meeting in one case?---Yes.

PN4701

Then you said you weren't aware of what they were doing in any other cases?---Well, in most of the other cases, yes.

PN4702

So, you know that in some cases they weren't meeting and talking?---In some of the exercises, no, they weren't talking, no.

PN4703

So, what are we talking about?---I'm talking about, for example, one of the cost accounting ones there, we merged a number of sites and finance shared services group in Melbourne and I know there were no discussions there but that's the one example that I know of.

PN4704

How do you know that?---Because they didn't talk to anyone there.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4705

They didn't talk to anyone on the phone or, you are saying they didn't turn up at mass meetings?---My understanding is they didn't come down, they didn't talk to anybody, no, that's right, that's correct.

PN4706

They didn't enter the centre and have talks, you mean?---No, they didn't do that.

PN4707

But there may have been bulletins going out to those centres from the union about the consultations?---There could have been bulletins going out.

PN4708

You don't know though?---I don't know whether they did or they didn't. I know that they have the bulletin board on the sites, so they're there, they could have well been there.

PN4709

So, I put it to you that the reason for low level of dispute could in part have been due to the involvement of the union in that process?---I still think it's a minor part. I think the way that we managed the exercise was the contributing factor.

PN4710

That's your view but you don't know one way or the other way. I mean, part of the management might've been involving the union and getting the union on side to assist with managing the process, presuming that was part of this strategy that the company pursued?---The strategy that I pursued when I had the meetings, as I mentioned earlier, was to keep you informed of what I was doing and the processes and that was the intent. It wasn't to lobby and to get the person to go out and say, this is a great idea, guys, I'm shutting your office down, you guys aren't going to do that. That wasn't the intent. The intent was to keep you across what was happening and how I was managing it.

PN4711

Given the environment in Telstra in terms as you've already noted, where there were a large number of job cuts elsewhere at the same time, do you think the reason for the disputes could've in part have been because people didn't think it was worth fighting it because it was inevitable? Do you think that may have been one of the reasons why there was a low level of disputes as well?---I don't think I can comment either way.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4712

You made some speculation about what you think the reasons might've been, I'm asking you to consider these other options as well?---It potentially could have been a reason but again, I would think at the lower end.

PN4713

But you really don't know?---I don't know. No I don't I wasn't involved in the other side - I haven't been involved in that side of the business so I couldn't really say.

PN4714

Okay. In paragraph 24 you talk about documentation of the process and here you are talking about the CPSU proposal. You recognise that the fair treatment does allow and in some cases require documentation?---Yes.

PN4715

You do know that?---Yes, you do need to have some documentation, yes.

PN4716

So, I mean, do you think that in that context there is any inconsistency between your view about the way that the CPSU proposal - - - ?---My understanding here is that from the very early stages everything should be documented. I don't know whether that is an official way to handle those sorts of issues when we are talking about informal discussions, potentially.

PN4717

The proposed clause provides that throughout all stages of the procedure all relevant facts must be clearly identified and recorded. Do you think that is an unreasonably requirement do you?---What process are we talking about there, what process is it?

PN4718

Sorry, this is the proposed dispute settlement procedure that is the subject of this application. It proposes the recording - sorry the identification of relevant facts and the recording of those relevant facts. In your view, you are saying that you think that is - - - ?---I think that is a bit over the top.

PN4719

That it is not necessary?---Yes.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4720

So what if these informal chats don't result in a resolution that the employee is happy with. You don't think it would have been worthwhile having some sort of record of what went on in those - you know, just a record of the relevant facts that arose out of that informal meeting?---In cases that you may well have a range of issues that have been talked about. How would the manager know that it would go to the next step unless the person has made the call there so how could you then make a call on whether keeping notes would have been relevant for the number of issues that get discussed each day.

PN4721

So in your view do you think it might be appropriate at some stage to have the relevant facts recorded?---Yes, yes, it would be. Yes of course it would be.

PN4722

What stage do you think that might be at?---I think that if, you know, if we started to talk about the next, moving down to the fair treatment process you would potentially want to start keeping some notes.

PN4723

So after the first informal meeting you think that it is reasonable at that point to start recording what is going on?---I think that is probably reasonable, yes.

PN4724

If I could take you to paragraph 27 of your statement now and here you are referring to part of the proposed clause which you outline in paragraph 26 of your statement and you say "it is likely to be highly disruptive". Why is that? Is that because you expected people would take when you say "especially necessary time" is that because you think people would take inordinate amounts of time. What is your concern with the word necessary?---I think that it could be played upon.

PN4725

Can I say a lot of what you have said about the way that things are resolved in this statement between managers and employees is based upon your view that there is a higher level of trust in the relationship between managers and employees. Is that a fair statement?---That is a fair statement, yes.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4726

And now we come to this point here and you are assuming now that it could be played upon. So these people who currently who you place a high level of trust in are all of a sudden now people who are going to play upon the fact that they might have necessary time?---Who have I placed mistrust in?

PN4727

The relationship between the employees and the managers you are saying there is a high level of trust there?---There is.

PN4728

Yes, and now you are saying that if you use the word necessary and allow people the necessary time to prepare that these employees who are given necessary time may well play upon that. Presumably you are saying to exploit it and take a lot of time to do things?---That is a potential outcome, yes.

PN4729

So why wouldn't you place the same trust in them in this process as you say you currently do in resolving the issues that arise between employees and their managers?---It probably comes down to human nature that people think that they can do something else. They might feel that there is another avenue there for them.

PN4730

So your comments in this paragraph are really based upon your views about human nature. Is that what you are saying?---No it is not what I am say at all, no.

PN4731

Well do you want to clarify it for me then?---I am saying that there is a potential here for other avenues and if someone can explore that they may well go and do that.

PN4732

Sorry, from other avenues you mean the potential for people to take more time than is necessary?---More time to do it. To take up time to go to interview employees, to interview supervisors. It may not be necessary. I mean, the simple discussion between the manager and the staff member may have resolved it.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4733

Okay, well if it has been resolved by the discussion between the manager and the staff then we can presume the representative isn't involved and therefore the representative is not interviewing the staff member?---But potentially under this my understanding was that representation could be at any stage.

PN4734

If it was asked for but you are saying that if it - things may have been resolved in an informal discussion already which is allowed under the process and that may have occurred in which case there wouldn't be any further interviewing necessary and that wouldn't happen. So what we are talking about when we are talking about interview time, and you may have misunderstood the clause, I mean I am now going to clarify it. The intention is that where there is a representative asked for that in order for the representative to properly perform the representative function they need to have time to talk to the person concerned about what is going on so they can go into the meeting with the manager and represent them?---Okay.

PN4735

That is the intention of the clause essentially?---And to have interviewed the supervisor as well, potentially?

PN4736

Yes. This is aimed at assisting in the dispute settlement procedure. That is the point where it occurs. So is your concern with the interviewing of the supervisor is that your - - - ?---It is just the process of interviewing the employee, the processing of potentially interviewing the supervisor as well.

PN4737

Okay, so you think it is appropriate for a representative in those circumstances to interview the employee if they are performing a representative function?---I am saying that I don't think that that process is necessary.

PN4738

I am putting a proposal to you. Do you think it might be appropriate in circumstances where any employee is being represented for that employee to have necessary time to talk to their representative before the meeting?---If someone was representing and if that was the rule then of course they might want to talk to them before they represented them. It is logical that they would do that, yes.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4739

And that wouldn't be - allowing "necessary time" in that circumstance wouldn't be highly disruptive?---I believe that it would still be disruptive because, yes, the explanation I gave earlier about work being completed, not being completed, customers that need to be serviced. Potentially we leave ourselves open here to not delivering that service.

PN4740

Okay?---Given that I don't know the length that, you know, how long would the interviews take place. How many need to be undertaken. There is a whole range of "ifs" here. It really doesn't tell me and I am making a comment based on that.

PN4741

I guess I get back to the point that I made before with you that your statement has in large part relied upon the fact that you place some trust or you recognise a significant amount of trust in the relationship between your employees and your managers?---Yes.

PN4742

I would expect that if you place a certain amount of trust in your employees, that if they are undertaking a representative role do you expect them to, in consultation with the rest of the team or the manager, not to just throw up their hands and not to work for a couple of days because they're interviewing some people but to manage their work within the team so they can spend necessary time with minimum disruption and then have the meeting and get on with things, isn't that the way you might expect to - - -?---That could be one outcome, yes, but it could also be the other that I indicated earlier as well where it could be abused.

PN4743

Which would then come down to the way it was managed, no doubt?---Yes.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4744

Perhaps you can clarify for me the word for me, the word staff work. You've got a lot of staff in the area. Is there a sort of general type of staff member that might represent the way that most staff work that you could to in terms of the way that they work in their team or does everyone work differently? I'm just trying to work out how to ask you about the way that they work. Is there a general - could you pick somebody who is representative of the way the people work in your group in terms of the way they interact with other people around them and the way they go about their daily tasks. Is it possible to talk about one person as an example or do we really need to talk about more specifically about the way that each - - -?---Okay, we have a fairly strong team structure in our group so we have teams that work together, so I could talk about the team structure.

PN4745

So let's pick a team that there might be reasonably representative of teams in your area. Can you pick an example for me?---Well, pay roll is probably a reasonable example of teams and team involvement, yes.

PN4746

How many people would be in a pay roll team?---In total there's about 110 people at this point in time in pay roll and their split over three offices, Parramatta, Dubbo, Hobart.

PN4747

In Parramatta for example they would work in teams of sort of five or 10?---They have a - primarily their role is to support and to pay the people on contract, so there's off the top of my head 10,000 odd maybe people on contract, maybe a bit more than that, and they support those people so within that structure they would have teams that would look at people coming on who are new to the contract, they would have people that would manage the allocation of the package, there's people that would manage, a team that would manage the draw downs so that when someone actually wants to go and do something on their package and have something paid they would manage that, people that look at just housekeeping, overpayment type, leave processing. So there are various teams in those groups, yes.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4748

How is one of those staff member's workload for the day managed? They just do work as it comes to them or they deal with certain contractors and make sure - or do you have someone who just deals with the first - I mean, how does it - - -?---Work would be allocated within the group. There would be a team leader assigned to those teams and maybe a couple of teams could be managed by an individual team leader, not necessarily one team leader per team. And depending on what the work is, yeah, a lot of our work now is on line so work will come through and the data will be there. One area that we look at, one of the groups would manage working report data that came through, not the Parramatta group but another team, so working report data comes through and if work needs to be fixed as a result of the data that's coming through so this team would be, depending on the report that came out today, work would be allocated amongst the team to do it, and if necessary maybe even outside of the team to assist. It's not uncommon for work to move within the sites to assist.

PN4749

So work moves within the sites, so is everybody fully occupied all the time?---No, only about half of them are fully occupied. The rest just - everyone is absolutely fully occupied, yes.

PN4750

How does work move between the different groups?---That's an arrangement that the regional manager for that site would discuss at typically one of the briefing sessions that go down. If there's an issue with work they will then move it across. Leave processing before Christmas is a good example. We needed to get leave processed and some sites were struggling. We were able to move it and other people were able to assist.

PN4751

And that's presumably the way you manage when people are sick, do you, sort of you look at what work is urgent and you allocate it around the group. You've got a larger resource there you can get it done - - -?---People - yeah, I don't run a relief staff situation. I don't have people sitting around waiting for those types of situations.

PN4752

That's because you can manage the work because you have the large resource of 100 odd people in three different centres to do the work?---We would share the work around, yes.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4753

Presumably then when someone is sick, for example, there's not one corresponding person who does overtime to make up for that, would that be a fair assessment?---It would be a combination of share the load or maybe the person has to pick up the load when they get back.

PN4754

Presumably that's the way that it would work also if we had people who were taking time off to attend industrial proceedings or to attend training courses?---Why would you assume that?

PN4755

Because that's the way you manage leave generally, because I presume that's the way you managed leave in this case as well?---I would expect that might be a slightly different situation. I'm just - how would people react to that?

PN4756

I'm not talking about the way they would react, I'm talking about the way you would manage it?---I would have to shift work, - - -

PN4757

As a type of leave?--- - - - potentially, yes.

PN4758

The way you do leave at the moment?---Well, yes, and if overtime was required, yes, I would have to pay the overtime to get done as I had to do in the leave situation. Let me clarify, that there was certainly overtime and payments made to people to do that work.

PN4759

Over the Christmas period?---Leading up to Christmas and other times when, you know, if something has to happen.

PN4760

So that's what happens when you've got a lot of work on anyway, that's what happens?---In some situations that could happen, yes.

PN4761

But generally speaking, when someone's sick or when someone's away for a couple of days here or there, two days here for example, you're not going to be paying someone else overtime to make up for that?---Depending on the - - -

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4762

Unless the centre is busy anyway?---The centre is busy, absolutely, yes, that could happen. They could be paid overtime, yes.

PN4763

But it's not necessarily that that will necessarily occur given what you said about the way you share work between the centres and between people within the team, for example?---We can share the work, yes.

PN4764

Let me take you to your statement in paragraph 28 about the potential for managers to be overwhelmed by the process and to abrogate their responsibility. Managers currently have responsibility for resolving issues as they arise in their areas, that's right, isn't it?---Yes.

PN4765

And you're saying now that if there was an interview process involved in terms of the representative being able to interview an employee who was subject to a dispute settlement procedure of some description, that that could then lead to managers abrogating that responsibility. Can you explain how you made that link?---I'm saying there that the company has spent a lot of time getting our managers to be accountable for the dealings they have, right, the interaction they have with their staff. What I'm saying - my comment here is that potentially, the word potential in there, that managers may well be overwhelmed by it, by the fact that there's representation and that representation may not just stop with the union. It could be you.

PN4766

So you're talking about - - -?---That is part of the process. It could be representation and yes, managers could be overwhelmed with that, and I would hate to think that this would move us away from the position we are at the moment with managers who are responsible for dealing with those sorts of issues and resolving those issues.

PN4767

I don't disagree.

PN4768

THE COMMISSIONER: Do you have any particular level of management in mind when you make those observations?---I would think that the lower down that you go the more potential - - -

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4769

The greater the risk?---Yeah.

PN4770

MR RICH: The intention of the procedure that is being proposed is to assist things to be resolved at the lowest possible level so rather than - if I was to say to you that the intention was that the first level if a representative was asked for, the representative that you would get would be one of the employee's work colleagues, would that change your view about the ability for managers to be overwhelmed?---I think the way the process works now, given the examples and the very small number of examples that I have where there is a need to escalate, I think that works well.

PN4771

I'm not asking about the process that currently exists, I'm asking about your statement there in paragraph 28. Would you change your - would your view about the likelihood of managers being overwhelmed be different if I was to say that, at the first level if an employee wanted to have a representative, they could put their hand up and ask for a representative. If that representative was someone from their work area, one of their work colleagues, do you think that would change your view?---I still think it's adding something - - -

PN4772

We're talking about the statement there - - -?---Yes, I understand what you're saying. It's adding to the process that I believe could still potentially have some issues with managers taking up that responsibility.

PN4773

Okay. So your managers can't even deal with - - -?---You're talking about one example though aren't you there. It could just be a - - -

PN4774

I'm talking about a particular example at the moment, yes?---Yes, true.

PN4775

So you think your managers can't even, they aren't able - you think there is some potential for your managers not to be able to deal with an issue that arises where an employee is being represented by one of their colleagues of the same sort of level?---It's moving away from the manager dealing directly with the staff member.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4776

I'm talking about abrogation of the responsibilities you've got here?---Yes, I did say that and, the sentence before, this would represent a backwards step to Telstra seeking to have managers accountable for dealing with their staff. So they would - - -

PN4777

So what you're saying, it's an abrogation of their responsibility to deal directly with their staff. Is that what you're saying?---No.

PN4778

If I can just get you to answer my question then which relates to the statement you've made about managers abrogating their responsibility. Do you think - would you change that statement or do you think that statement should be changed- - -?---No, I don't think it should be changed.

PN4779

Okay. Sorry, just wait for me finish the question. If I propose that, or if I said to you that the process would be that at the first level if someone put their hand up and asked for a representative that representative would be someone from the workplace, a colleague of the employee. In the process would that change your view about the abrogation of the manager's responsibility?---I believe that they could be still overwhelmed by the process.

PN4780

Do you train your managers very much?---We have training programs that the company provide. There's a whole range of training that's provided, yes.

PN4781

Do you train them in dispute resolution?---Not specific I don't, no.

PN4782

Even though that's one of the - sorry, not you, but does the company train them?---I'm not aware that they do. I certainly - that's not certainly part of my - - -

PN4783

You wouldn't expect to be aware?---Sorry?

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4784

You're saying, you wouldn't expect to be aware necessarily of how they were trained?---I'm saying I'm not aware of whether those sorts of training programs are undertaken.

PN4785

Would you expect to be aware of the skill levels and the training and knowledge that your managers have in your business unit, in your area?---Yes.

PN4786

So what training are you aware of that they do receive then, what skills do they have?---We've recently I'm going through a team leader development training program and that's a program for team leaders at that level 6 level and that has just started and that's - we trialled it in the payroll groups and we're about to move that our to other parts of my business.

PN4787

Does that deal with conflict resolution and that sort of thing?---I'm not aware of the actual - - -

PN4788

You don't know what you're training them in?---Each of the levels of that training are - no, I haven't been involved in that. It's a - - -

PN4789

So as far as you are aware, your managers aren't trained in how to resolve disputes or communicate with their staff?---Not directly on how to resolve disputes, no. That's not - they're not courses that I've had people go on.

PN4790

But you recognise your managers have a direct role under the fair treatment process in resolving disputes though?---Yes, they're involved in that, certainly, yes.

PN4791

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Cartwright, your one up manager is the team leader?---In most cases, yes.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4792

In most cases. How many people in a team roughly?---Look there are numbers, you know, maybe twentyish.

PN4793

Your two up manager?---The two up manager is typically a level 5 manager and he could have four or five maybe six team leaders, or less.

PN4794

Yes?---Really there's no - I mean I'd need to be advised on whether there's set rules for how many but typically that's about - - -

PN4795

In your area?---In my area, that's about right.

PN4796

So your two up manager would have up to about 100 people?---Could have, yes. Wouldn't be much more than that.

PN4797

No. Thank you.

PN4798

MR RICH: I can take you to - do you know whether or not - you say you're aware of union delegates in your area?---Yes, I was asked how many I had and I asked the question of how many. I wasn't aware up until - this exercise now has made me aware of the numbers, yes.

PN4799

So are you aware of whether or not - I may have asked you about his before I'm not sure, what degree you can say you do know about it but the interaction as between delegates in the work place and their managers do you know - have you talked to managers about those interactions at all?---They interact on occasions. Yes, they do.

PN4800

Do you know when they meet, do they tend to meet on work time, or do you know how that works?---I don't know that for - - -

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4801

You don't know how that works, okay. I'll take you to paragraph 34, to the last paragraph in your statement. You say the fair treatment process serves CWSS ops well. Now that's based upon the statement that follows there, is it?---No, I'm saying primarily through informal discussion between employees and their managers and then if necessary through the fair treatment process served and continues to serve both - - -

PN4802

But that's based upon, is it, the fact that there are very few disputes that have been escalated and notified to the Commission?---There have been none.

PN4803

Yes, but that's what that statement is based upon?---That is saying that, yes.

PN4804

Can I just clarify as well, the statements you've made about costs here, you've talked about your areas specifically but are you making statements here - you're making quite broad statements about the cost implications and so on. Are you making those statements - this on paragraphs 29 and following about costs - are you talking there broadly or are you just talking about in your areas?---I'm talking that there is no relief built into my staffing figures and there is a potential to increase my costs.

PN4805

Then when you're talking in paragraph 30 and also paragraph 32 and paragraph 33, where you're talking about the business, are you talking about your part of the business?---My business.

PN4806

Right. I gather that you don't see any benefits, this is the - you are saying you don't see any benefits to training representatives to be involved in a representative role in dispute settlement procedures?---I think that the way the process works now works well. I don't see any benefit.

PN4807

That view is the basis for which you make your statements about the costs that might be incurred by the business?---Yes.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT XXN MR RICH

PN4808

I have no further questions for Mr Cartwright.

PN4809

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Parry.

<RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PARRY [4.05pm]

PN4810

MR PARRY: I think the penultimate question asked by Mr Rich was about the benefits or not of training the representatives and that was the second last question asked; do you remember that?---Yes.

PN4811

Now, you were asked a number of questions about training and the training of managers. What about your view on the necessity or otherwise to train managers in dispute resolution?---I think that - look, I really don't think that that's necessary.

PN4812

Have you yourself been through such training?---Specifically for dispute resolutions?

PN4813

Yes?---A very long time ago I attended a course. I'm talking back in '85, '86 and it was a totally different organisation.

PN4814

What other training have you had with Telstra? Perhaps we'll stay with the last 10 years to stay within limits?---Okay, right. Briefly when privacy type requirements came around, changes to those types of laws, we needed to be trained on those. We had EO type awareness training that I've undertaken; not a lot of training to be honest with you over the last 10 years.

PN4815

As to the training requirements or otherwise for those managers that report to you or those that report to them who makes the decision on training requirements?---It's joint between me and that person.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT RXN MR PARRY

PN4816

Now, the Commissioner asked you a question at one stage about discipline and who looked after it at the first stage and I think you were saying team leader initially; do you get involved in disciplinary matters at any stage?---If we get to the stage where a dismissal is recommended it comes to me.

PN4817

Have you been involved in such dismissals?---I've had one that I can remember, maybe two.

PN4818

Were union representatives involved in those?---Not in the discussions that I had. The regional manager would come to me and I would go to my manager as he is the delegate to sign off on dismissal so I'm not directly involved in the process but I take the recommendation to the level 2 manager who's delegated to sign off.

PN4819

Now, you were asked about team briefs and grievances and you were referring the Commission to a team brief in Northcote which was a combination team brief and a best of health program. You said the matter of relief and backfilling was raised; do you recall giving that evidence?---Yes, I do.

PN4820

What's the issue about relief and backfilling; what does that concern?---It was just an issue that was raised in discussion about relief for a position, a personal assistant type position.

PN4821

What happened with that matter that was raised as far as you're aware?---The matter was to be resolved by the manager. It wasn't resolved at that meeting. It was just a discussion about how that, you know, would be filled.

PN4822

If the Commission pleases I have nothing further of Mr Cartwright; might he be excused?

PN4823

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you, Mr Cartwright, thank you for your evidence?---Thank you.

**** IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT RXN MR PARRY

PN4824

Travel safely back to Victoria?---Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [4.10pm]

PN4825

MR PARRY: We don't have Mr Clifford here. I made a call about 20 minutes ago, with the inordinate length of Mr Rich's questions that we'd end up where we were so with the leave of the Commission - - -

PN4826

THE COMMISSIONER: 10 o'clock tomorrow?

PN4827

MR PARRY: If the Commission pleases.

ADJOURNED UNTIL THURSDAY, 23 MAY 2002 [4.11pm]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

BENJAMIN WICKS, ON FORMER OATH PN4038
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICH PN4038
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PARRY PN4456
WITNESS WITHDREW PN4477
MFI #J14 DOCUMENT
MFI #J15 DOCUMENT
IAN EDWARD CARTWRIGHT, SWORN PN4485
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR PARRY PN4493
EXHIBIT #W25 STATEMENT OF MR CARTWRIGHT PN4526
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICH PN4527
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PARRY PN4810
WITNESS WITHDREW PN4825