C2002/1946, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 2078 (11 June 2002)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114 MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
DX 305 Melbourne Tel:[phone] Fax:[phone]

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N VT04187

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

DEPUTY PRESIDENT IVES

C2002/1946

AUSTRALIAN MUNICIPAL,
ADMINISTRATIVE, CLERICAL
AND SERVICES UNION

and

CHUBB SECURITY SERVICES
AUSTRALIA PTY LTD

Application pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of a dispute re closure of Chubb Security
branches

MELBOURNE

10.01 AM, MONDAY, 27 MAY 2002

Continued from 9.5.02

PN96

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is there any change to the appearances at all?

PN97

MR D. LEYDON: No change over this side of the table, your Honour. I appear on behalf of the ASU and I have the delegates from the Chubb branches with me.

PN98

MR B. WELSH: It remains the same on this side as well, your Honour.

PN99

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, as I recall, this matter was down for report back and if necessary, directions as to where we go from here. So it is really up to whoever wants to give the report back. Mr Leydon.

PN100

MR LEYDON: Thanks, your Honour. The parties since we were last before you were scheduled to meet I think it was the week after the last hearing and that was cancelled, but we did get together last Thursday in the second half of the afternoon. While it is fair to say that there is no resolution to the matter yet. There was an offer put by the company on that day which from our point of view we are duty bound obviously to take that to the members for a decision one way or the other. We haven't obviously been able to do that.

PN101

Given the nature of the business not everyone is together on every day of the week. So what we were proposing at this stage was that the offer the company has put we take to the members some time later this week, with a view for gaining some direction from them about where we go with the matter, and then perhaps we sit down with the company again in the middle part of next week to further discuss any issues arising out of that. Now, it may be that we don't get anywhere, but it may also bear us some fruit. As I say, the offer that was made by the company essentially goes towards the issue of relocation and an allowance along those lines.

PN102

It hasn't dealt with the issue of redundancy, which is a key issue, but I suppose an offer is an offer and on that basis we would like to take that to the members. In terms of the other matter that is outstanding - or the other two matters that are outstanding as far as the original claim of our members were concerned, we don't have a resolution in any way, shape or form on those issues. In fact we don't have offers on the table and that is where we have some difficulty. But not withstanding that we may be able to make some tracks over the next week through further discussions.

PN103

Those issues that I refer to specifically relate to the jobs that the people will be required to do once they relocate from Clayton to Kensington and the conditions associated with those jobs which is obviously a key issue. And the other half of it obviously is for those people not wishing to make the transfer to have access to a redundancy package in line with the redundancy package contained in the enterprise agreement. So they are the two issues that obviously we want to talk further about and obviously we will get some direction from our members on Friday about the issue of relocation allowances that have been offered by the company.

PN104

But that is probably it in a nutshell as far as reporting on where we have been since we were last before you.

PN105

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. And is there anything at this stage you would request from this Commission, Mr Leydon?

PN106

MR LEYDON: Not at this stage, your Honour. The one thing that we are very mindful of and concerned about though is that it may be that things happen very quickly as far as the company is concerned in terms of closing the Clayton branch. What we would possibly seek after our meetings with the members and also the company next week, is some dates for programming from yourself.

PN107

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, as I recall, when the company made - correct me on this, but as I recall there wasn't, due to some building circumstances, to be any movement prior to July. Is that still correct, Mr Welsh?

PN108

MR WELSH: That is correct, your Honour. It has actually been pushed back a little further, due to some engineering issues, with the relocation of what is known as an instavault which is an internal vault, which has got to be transported and placed at the facility. We have been advised by the engineers that there has actually got to be some drilling, internal drilling and, of course, the current floor and the structure won't support the weight of this vault and I guess contingent upon what they find underneath the slab will be - all will depend on that and the best case scenario at this stage I have been advised is week 3 July before anything will happen. So we do still have some time.

PN109

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN110

MR WELSH: And without wanting to, I guess, abuse the Commission's time I think we still have some time - the parties still have some time to discuss the matter further without going to a formal hearing. But I think in order to keep pressure on both parties to resolve it I think a report back some time next week, after Mr Leydon has had his meeting with his members, I think it would probably be wise.

PN111

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, yes, thanks, Mr Welsh. Is there anything else you wanted to put on the record at this stage. Sorry, had you finished, Mr Leydon?

PN112

MR LEYDON: I was just going to ask a question, your Honour.

PN113

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, by all means.

PN114

MR LEYDON: It may be from our perspective that we don't seek dates at this stage until after our meeting next week with - or over the next week with our members and also with the company.

PN115

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN116

MR LEYDON: I say that on the basis that although the relocation allowance offer that was put to us the other day may not go all the way to resolving the matter, at least we have made some progress and I would like to think that through some further discussions we can continue down that track. Perhaps it may be advisable for the parties to contact you after next week's meetings to seek some further dates.

PN117

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. What I was going to suggest to you both was this. Rather than sort of come back into perhaps the hearing of formal submissions if discussions that you have don't bear fruit, without sort of having given some prior thought to that, was to ask for written submissions on this matter, such that I would allow the union - well, I haven't sort of thought too much about the time frame but perhaps three weeks from today's date, which would give you time both to go through the processes that you need to go through in the hope of resolving the issue and if you were successful in doing that then that would obviate any need for any written submissions, but if you weren't successful would still give you time to put those written submissions together.

PN118

Those written submissions should be provided to the Commission and to the respondent employer and that the employer then should have a further two weeks beyond that date to - for submissions in reply. That would take us five weeks from now which is more than adequate time I would have thought to resolve the issue if it can be resolved. And if I was to list in five weeks' time for hearing any verbal submissions in support of the written materials that are put, then that obviously puts something in front of the parties that is concrete at least.

PN119

MR LEYDON: The thing that just occurs to me, your Honour, is although we have heard from the company that the time line is now out to the second or third week of July - - -

PN120

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN121

MR LEYDON: - - - the one area of concern that we have is the uncertainty that our members have got over what their future may be within the organisation. So we were trying to attempt to resolve all matters sooner rather than later. I understand that five weeks is well within the time lines of the company proposing to close the Clayton branch. But just off the top of my head if there was a way of making it the three to four week period that would be slightly more beneficial.

PN122

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I mean I can make it four weeks but I made it five more for your benefit than for the company's, Mr Leydon, given that you are going through some discussions with the hope of resolving it. You wouldn't at the same time want to be going to the trouble of making written submissions when there is some chance that those submissions may not need to be made.

PN123

MR LEYDON: Yes.

PN124

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Particularly if you were inclined to call witness evidence at the time I would also want witness statements prior to. This is an issue that, as you know, is not new to the Commission. Issues of closures and removals of people to other premises there is a great deal of precedent for which is the reason that I would want some written submissions in terms of both what it is that you would wish to see happen and the form of any orders that you would want to see issue from this Commission.

PN125

So to enable you to do all of those things, both progress the discussions and not unnecessarily go to the stage of collecting witness statements and making written submissions, I thought three weeks was a reasonable time. But I am quite happy to do - if two is sufficient for you then I can do it.

PN126

MR LEYDON: Well, your Honour, I have got to say from my own very selfish point of view three weeks is probably good for me in terms of other issues I have got to deal with at a workplace level. But if we were to look at that five week period do I then take it from the company that that is the be all and end all then of this proceeding; in other words, that there would be no - that we are accepting that this is the process that we are going to go through to resolve this matter and that we are not going to have any jurisdictional arguments over any other matters.

PN127

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I would - it would be my view that it is open to the company and to the union for that matter, but obviously the union wouldn't be seeking to do it to make any jurisdictional arguments that they may want to make in those written submissions in response that they put. So if the company had an argument that they wished to put to the Commission, that they would include that in their written submissions, and then I would hear them on that at the same time as I hear the rest of the material.

PN128

MR LEYDON: Yes.

PN129

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And subject to me being satisfied that there is jurisdiction I would determine the matter as quickly as possible after hearing it.

PN130

MR LEYDON: Yes. I suppose from our point of view we would just be seeking an undertaking from the company that in accordance with the dispute resolution clause in the agreement that we come here for resolution of the matter and we don't want the thing dragging out with any other arguments if this is where we agree we are going to resolve it.

PN131

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Welsh.

PN132

MR WELSH: Your Honour, if I may, in relation to the jurisdictional arguments it is something we certainly haven't given any consideration to, so that is to some extent outer left field, if you like, and it something that we certainly haven't given any consideration to.

PN133

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I think on its face there is a jurisdiction which resides in this Commission to make a determination. If the company was of a mind to address that and had a different view, then I am open to hearing any arguments. But on its face the agreement appears to provide a jurisdiction for the Commission.

PN134

MR WELSH: I can only say - it is a federal agreement and I could only assume that this Commission does hold jurisdiction over that agreement and has the power to make those determinations. In addition to that, your Honour, given the comments and the submissions made by Mr Leydon I think the wise way forward would be for the parties to concentrate on those two outstanding issues and deal with those with some haste and give them the importance they deserve, with a view to resolving the matter prior to any submissions. And we will commit to meeting next week at a discussion prior to coming before you in relation to that and we will get our diaries together and we will do that and hopefully those two outstanding issues can be resolved.

PN135

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. And do you have any objection, Mr Welsh, to the directions as I have outlined them?

PN136

MR WELSH: No objection to those at all, your Honour.

PN137

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And Mr Leydon, you are happy with going - - -

PN138

MR LEYDON: We don't have any objections to those, your Honour.

PN139

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. That would mean that from the union's point of view there would be a need to file an outline of submissions and any witness statements that they intended to rely on in the hearing of this matter no later than close of business on Monday, 17 June, and those submissions should be both filed in this Commission and provided to the respondent employer. The employer would then have a further two weeks from that date which would make it Monday, 1 July to file submissions in response, including any witness statements that the company wished to rely upon.

PN140

And I will list the matter for Tuesday, 9 July at 10 am in the morning. Now, it would seem from the parties that some progress has been made and hopefully more progress will be made in the ensuing weeks towards a resolution of this matter. In the instance that it is resolved I would appreciate it obviously to know that sooner rather than later so that I can abandon those dates. But I will send out directions confirming that which I have just put on the record to the parties over the next couple of days. Is there anything further, Mr Leydon?

PN141

MR LEYDON: Nothing further, your Honour.

PN142

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Welsh.

PN143

MR WELSH: Thank you, your Honour.

PN144

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We will adjourn these proceedings. Thank you.

ADJOURNED UNTIL TUESDAY, 9 JULY 2002 [10.19am]