C2002/2377, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 2092 (11 June 2002)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 4, 60-70 Elizabeth St SYDNEY NSW 2000
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DUNCAN

C2002/2377

FINANCE SECTOR UNION OF AUSTRALIA

and

GIO AUSTRALIA LTD

Application under section 170LW of the Act
for settlement of dispute concerning alleged failure
to comply with certain provisions of the AMP-GIO
Enterprise Agreement 2000

SYDNEY

10.30 AM, MONDAY, 27 MAY 2002

Continued from 24.5.02 in Melbourne

PN217

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Any variations to appearances?

PN218

MR L.S. REIDY: If it please your Honour, I'm a solicitor of Reidy and Tonkin. I seek leave to appear on behalf of the Finance Sector Union of Australia. I have MS D. HANNAN with me.

PN219

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There are no other variations, are there?

PN220

MR M. HARMER: No, your Honour, could I just note however for the record that I've previously appeared with MR BAINBRIDGE and MR DAILEY from the company. I also have from the company today MS K. PARKER.

PN221

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Leave is granted, Mr Reidy.

PN222

MR REIDY: Thank you, your Honour. First of all our apologies for the delay. We've had a few witnesses' matters to organise a bit earlier today. Could I ask your indulgence. Ms Hannan has a matter apparently carrying over from last Friday that she wishes to briefly raise first. I really have no brief or instructions in this matter so I don't know that I can be of assistance. Would that be able to be dealt with briefly first?

PN223

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I think it's appropriate to deal with that first. Ms Hannan.

PN224

MS D. HANNAN: Yes, thank you, your Honour, and once again that you for the time available this morning. Your Honour, this is certainly not in conclusion of the matter that was before you on Friday concerning the Victoria WorkCover dispute, if I can characterise it that way, but I felt it was appropriate to alert you that the FSU would be reporting back to members the outcome of those proceedings between 12 and 2 pm today. In the intervening period FSU has received a copy of the Cambridge letter of offer, and Cambridge comparison document of employment conditions that are currently applied to the GIO employees and those conditions proposed going forward.

PN225

However, there has been a slight complication, as it were, due to the fact that that without prejudice proposal that was put by the company in writing Friday afternoon has been put directly to the employees, which has caused some confusion and concern, particularly amongst the workplace representatives. Nonetheless the FSU organiser, Mr Burn, will be seeking to work through those issues at lunchtime today, and following those meetings I'll be in discussions with Mr Burn and would hope to have further discussions with the company to see if we can progress matters, if it pleases.

PN226

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well. Thank you, Ms Hannan. I don't think there's anything arising out of that, is there, Mr Harmer?

PN227

MR HARMER: No. I can certainly confirm that it's my understanding that the employees were in fact informed of the existence of the offer and its terms. Other than that we're happy to await the outcome of the union's meetings, your Honour.

PN228

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well. Mr Reidy.

PN229

MR REIDY: Thank you, your Honour. I've spoken to my friend, Mr Harmer, before the start today as to how we might most efficiently proceed with this matter, and I have raised with him what my procedural intentions are, subject obviously to the Commission's views. But I think it would be helpful if I gave, if you like, a mini opening of the LW case to assist the Commission and Mr Harmer about what I might call the GIO/all finance/motor assessors' aspect of this LW matter.

PN230

Now, to do that in a sensible sort of way, and again I don't know that this is opposed by Mr Harmer, I have some witnesses that I would like to lead brief evidence from, and it's in statement form for two of them. The third, and I've flagged to Mr Harmer what that evidence would be, and that's extremely brief; I would think no more than about five minutes. It covers two very discrete issues. Mr Harmer has indicated that he would make a reservation of his rights to cross-examine, and of course that's fully accepted. The purpose of doing it is to assist, if you like, my mini opening, and to contextualise it in the fact background.

PN231

So if your Honour pleases I would propose at this stage to call those three witnesses, have their evidence dealt with expeditiously, give a mini opening, if you like, and then hear from Mr Harmer his response, be it to the opening or any other matters that he seeks to raise.

PN232

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: My understanding of that, Mr Harmer, is that the procedure would be somewhat similar to the Melbourne procedure.

PN233

MR HARMER: That's correct, your Honour. Our position is much the same. Our primary objective, short-term, is to proceed into conciliation and see if we can resolve the matters. We don't want to hold that process up. I've indicated to my friend that we'd be happy even for the brief statements to be handed up. We haven't seen them ourselves, but we'd be happy for them to be marked for information, and for your Honour to perhaps quickly digest them rather than even perhaps having to call the witnesses, but we're in the Commission's hands. I just want to make it clear that our primary objective is to get to conciliation today if we can. We do, as we noted on Friday, have some preliminary issues with how far matters can go. Again, we don't seek to traverse them, your Honour, if we can resolve the matters in conciliation, but we're in your Honour's hands in that regard.

PN234

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Ms Hannan, are the statements of no greater length than the statements in Melbourne?

PN235

MS HANNAN: One or two might have one or more pages, but Mr Reidy doesn't intend to go to any of the annexures in any detail, that are attached.

PN236

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. That being the case, I'll follow the Melbourne procedure simply for the sake of continuity. So that means yes, call your witness.

PN237

MR REIDY: I'll call Colleen Gambrill first. Her address is 8 Munro Street, Baulkham Hills.

<COLLEEN GAMBRILL, SWORN [10.38am]

<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR REIDY

PN238

MR REIDY: I'll just lead the formal bits of the evidence and then ask the witness to read the statement. I understand that that was the procedure on the last occasion.

PN239

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, that's correct.

PN240

MR REIDY: I have a spare statement for the witness so that your Honour can follow it, but maybe we'll mark the one that she has sworn this morning for information purposes and have it handed up. Would that assist?

PN241

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, that would be convenient.

PN242

MR REIDY: Mr Harmer has his copy as well.

PN243

Could you give the Commission your name, address and occupation?---My name is Colleen Gambrill, 8 Munro Street, Baulkham Hills, New South Wales, and my occupation is a Customer Service Representative.

PN244

You have sworn a statement, or affidavit this morning?---I have.

PN245

And do you have that in front of you?---I do.

PN246

Is there anything in that that you wish to change? Now, what I might do, because I understand you have made some handwritten alterations which have been initialled, for the assistance of the other parties what we will do is I'll hand - can I tender that statement now for information purposes? But what I might do is let the witness read that statement, because these copies I don't think have the changes made, and I'll ask the witness to identify the changes when she gets to them and then we can write them in our copies.

**** COLLEEN GAMBRILL XN MR REIDY

PN247

Now, are you clear on what you need to do? If you can just start reading from paragraph 1, and whenever you've written something or made a change, can you stop and tell us what that change is.

PN248

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I'll mark it before you start. This is for identification only, the rights of the employer are preserved. This, the statement of Colleen Gambrill, made to these proceedings will be exhibit FSU5I.

MFI #FSU5I STATEMENT OF COLLEEN GAMBRILL

PN249

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you, Ms Gambrill?---Right:

PN250

I am an employee of GIO Australia Limited, GIO. I joined GIO in 1985 and I have worked there continuously since then. I am employed in a permanent part-time capacity in the role of Customer Service Representative, CSR. I have always been permanent part-time. My place of work Carlingford branch, New South Wales. The branch is badged as a GIO branch. The signage makes no reference to Suncorp Metway. The branch conducts the business of selling retail insurance products in the general and domestic insurance areas. We also sell CTP insurance. The general insurance includes house, motor, caravan, boat and related insurance. The branch does not deal with business or life insurance. All this work is referred on.

PN251

My duties and responsibilities are concerned with the sale and maintenance of domestic and personal insurance. My role requires me to maximise and achieve sales targets, participate in sales strategies and campaigns as required, achieve compliance requirements, including providing customers with accurate advice, achieve renewal and proper targets for policies, be involved in cross-marketing and maintain underwriting standards. I am also required to do cashiering duties when required. I also do the balancing of my transactions.

**** COLLEEN GAMBRILL XN MR REIDY

PN252

Primarily the role is face-to-face with customers. There is some telephone work, mainly for inquiries, complaints or alterations to existing policies. The role profile annexed in my CG1 reasonably reflects my current duties and responsibilities. Annexed and marked CG2 is for comparison purposes, the position description for sales and service assistant offered by Suncorp as an alternative position. Annexed and marked CG3 is a document describing the products which are to be sold from All Finance centres. Up until December last year when Suncorp announced its all finance initiative GIO had, through its new owner, Suncorp, always led staff to believe that they were committed to maintaining and expanding the general and personal insurance area.

PN253

This caused me and other staff to believe we had job security. As well there was never any indication until April this year that our positions would change and that our terms and conditions of employment would alter. At the time of the Suncorp buy-out we were told that we were to go over to GIO Australia Limited as the provider of personal services from AMP Services Limited, which had been the provider of personal services up to the AMP buy-out. This appears in a GIO letter to me of 21 June 2001, which is annexed and marked CG(a).

PN254

During late April, early May I received on the intra-net application forms for the All Finance positions. Until I received the e-mail I did not know this was coming. Our team leader, Julie Hodges, told me after the application forms arrived that they had to be in by 2 May 2002. I recall I only had three to four days to put my application form in. I was only allowed, because I was a part-time, to apply for the only part-time position available. There are four part-timers at Carlingford who job-share. When Suncorp took over we were assured that no one in the branch would lose their jobs. I sent my application by facsimile on 2 May 2002.

PN255

The application forms are annexed and marked CG(b). Previously, on 17 April 2002, I received an e-mail on the intra-net which included a comparison of Suncorp and GIO conditions. This e-mail is annexed and marked CG(c). I had received an FSU document of comparison of GIO and Suncorp conditions, which is annexed and marked CG(d). I want to remain on GIO conditions and indicated my preference when I lodged my application form.

**** COLLEEN GAMBRILL XN MR REIDY

PN256

Paul Stephens and Emma from Suncorp, came to the branch after I submitted my application forms about a week-and-a-half later. I was informed that I had to retract my letter, which stated I wanted to keep GIO conditions otherwise my application would not be considered. I was also advised by Mr Stephens that Suncorp would not be offering a job share position. This is currently how I am employed. I have a flexible arrangement, working five days on and having five days off. As I have said, I job share. I have been working part-time on these or similar arrangements for the last 17 years.

PN257

During the meeting I was told that the only part-time position available was five hours a day, working five days a week, and if I took this position I would be under the Suncorp employment conditions. I know that these conditions are not as good as my present GIO conditions. I advised Mr Stephens and Emma that I could not possibly work these hours due to my family commitments. I asked if there was any flexibility or exceptions, and I was told definitely no. The situation has been extremely upsetting for my family and other branch staff. The four part-time branch staff who had, up to the point of announcement in January of the All Finance changes, believed their jobs were secure, were upset at having to contest for one position.

PN258

When Mr Stephens refused to give me my existing hours I told him I wanted to withdraw my application because I could not do the hours. I was told that I would be sent to the Parramatta call centre.

PN259

MR REIDY: Could I just interrupt you there to clarify one thing. You said to Mr Stephens that you wanted to withdraw your application. Did you in fact withdraw it?---Yes, I did.

PN260

Thank you. Could you continue?---

**** COLLEEN GAMBRILL XN MR REIDY

PN261

The Parramatta call centre only deals with business insurance and workers' comp. These are different products for different customers, business customers, not personal customers. I have not had any experience or training in this area and it is a completely different environment from the branch and dealing face-to-face with customers, as you would always be on the phone. I was told that I did not have any other choice except take the part-time Suncorp position or I would be sent to the Parramatta call centre. I was more or less told by Mr Stephens that I had the -

PN262

Then there's an alteration made there, and it wasn't Parramatta, it was the Carlingford job:

PN263

The confirmation did not come until later, with letters dated 21 and 22 May 2002. I told Mr Stephens -

PN264

There was a spelling mistake there. It's been altered:

PN265

I could not go to the Parramatta call centre. Parramatta is a different work environment, with work cubicles. As I suffer with panic attacks such a work environment would be unbearable. I was very upset about the interview. I felt I was being left with no options. I subsequently resubmitted my application because if I did not I would be left without options as Suncorp had said that I would not get access to a redundancy payment. This statement was contained in paperwork sent to me by express post. This document is annexed and marked CG(e). The letters of 21 and 22 May, both letters arrived together from Suncorp to me, offering the position, are annexed and marked CG8.

**** COLLEEN GAMBRILL XN MR REIDY

PN266

I have found the uncertainty about my future with GIO very upsetting, particularly over the last two weeks or so. Morale in the workplace is very low. I am very concerned about my future employment prospects and my future at GIO. I had always believed that with the various buy-outs my employment conditions would be preserved. This was honoured in the AMP buy-out. We were told that this would be honoured when Suncorp bought GIO. This has not proved to be the case. I now find myself being forced out of a job that I cannot afford to lose. For my peace of mind I would like the FSUs claim, which I support, resolved speedily.

PN267

Thank you. That's the evidence of this witness at this stage.

PN268

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, very well. That's all that will occur today, Ms Gambrill. You may be required for cross-examination or other evidence at a later date, but that's all for today.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.49am]

PN269

MR REIDY: I call Janis Leonard. I think we have the same situation here, with a couple of additions and alterations.

<JANIS LORRAINE LEONARD, SWORN [10.50am]

<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR REIDY

PN270

MR REIDY: I might adopt the same procedure. The witness has her - your original sworn statement. I hand up a copy at this stage and I'll ask the witness, as the witness reads through the statement, to stop and identify any changes that you've made in hand writing. Can you please do that?---Yes.

PN271

Now, I'll take you through some formal bits. Your full and correct name?---My full name is Janis Lorraine Leonard.

PN272

You live at 5 Friedman Avenue, Castle Hill?---Yes.

PN273

You are employed by GIO Australia Limited as a customer service representative?---Yes.

PN274

Would you kindly read from paragraph 1 of your affidavit - sorry, you've sworn an affidavit this morning?---Yes.

PN275

Do you have that in front of you?---I do.

PN276

Is that true and correct?---It is.

PN277

Well, I'll again ask for that to be marked.

PN278

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I'll mark this document, the affidavit of Jan Leonard, exhibit FSU6I.

MFI #FSU6I AFFIDAVIT OF JAN LEONARD

**** JANIS LORRAINE LEONARD XN MR REIDY

PN279

MR REIDY: Could you read from paragraph 1?---"I am an employee of GIO Australia Limited (GIO) and have been employed since 1961. I left in 1964 and returned as a casual in September/October 1973. In May 1974 I became a permanent part timer. I am employed in the role of customer service representative. My place of work is Carlingford Branch, New South Wales. My duties and responsibilities are the same as those of Colleen Gambrill. I submitted an application for a position in an all finance branch and attached an FSU letter that stated I wanted to remain on the GIO AMP Enterprise Agreement. After I put in my application is was phoned by Kristen McCarr of human resources who told me that I would have to withdraw the letter attached to my application before I would be considered for a position in an all finance branch. To the best of my recollection this conversation occurred on Friday, 3rd of May the day after I put in my application. I was so distressed that I could not continue the call with Kristen and told her I would have to call her back as I was too busy".

PN280

Could I interrupt you there. There's nothing left out. There's just an error from there on in the paragraph numbering?---That's right.

PN281

That 7 shouldn't be there?---No.

PN282

Would you please continue?---"I was very upset when I was told about withdrawing the letter because I need to work part time. I am the only wage earner in our house and I support and am carer for my chronically ill husband. Due to my personal situation I felt I had no other option but to withdraw the letter in order to be considered for a job. However", and this is the part that I've hand written in and signed, "I did not end up withdrawing the letter. My husband is blind, has renal failure requiring dialysis three times a week, is a diabetic insulin dependent, has hypertension and cardiac problems. Another development today has been quite upsetting. About a week" - - -

PN283

Sorry, could I correct you there, "Another development today", that isn't correct. That didn't occur today, did it?---Sorry, not today as in such. That's referring to another day at work.

**** JANIS LORRAINE LEONARD XN MR REIDY

PN284

So, do you want to correct that?---It says about a week or so after the call from Kristen, that's when it's referring to.

PN285

So it's, "Another development" and we take out the word "today" and put "about a week or so after the call from Kristen"?---Yes.

PN286

Thank you?---"I was spoken to by Paul Stebbins a manager and a woman called Emma from human resources. Paul Stebbins advised that I would not be considered for a position as the hours on offer from Suncorp Metway for part time did not fit with the hours that I could work because of my carer responsibilities and the hours I could work were not acceptable to them. It was not a job interview. Paul Stebbins did most of the speaking. He call me in and said words to the effect, so you have applied for the part time sales assistant position. He went on to say that because I could not fulfil their hours they required I could not be considered for the position. Mr Stebbins suggested applying for a job at the call centre in Parramatta as they may be able to offer me more flexible hours. I asked him what hours they could offer with my husband having dialysis on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays at Blacktown Renal Clinic. He said he could not tell me what hours they could offer. I felt as if I was being given no option but to try the call centre. The call centre seems my only option but it is not comparable with my present position. The call centre is a completely different job to the CSR position at Carlingford. The call centre deals with different products. They are business products such as business insurance and workers compensation. I would require significant retraining to deal in these products which are very different to personal or general insurance lines. The work is different. It is telephone work not face to face work which is what I do now. It is also different in responsibility in that it involves taking inquiries and procuring leaves and passing them on whereas a CSR I am responsible for the sales work and underwriting the business in general domestic products. The call centre is a less responsible position. I could not possibly afford the extra parking costs out of my part time wage. We do not pay for parking at Carlingford whereas we will have to pay at Parramatta. I am concerned about the cost of public transport to Parramatta given the limited hours I work and my limited earning capacity because of the carers pension. I am restricted by Centrelink to working a maximum of 20 hours per week including travelling time since I have been on a part carers pension since February 2001. I had to end up dropping one

**** JANIS LORRAINE LEONARD XN MR REIDY

day out of my five day fortnight to get the pension. Suncorp are leaving me with no options. I understand from the material sent out by Suncorp that I am not even eligible for redundancy payments. My future with GIO after so many years is extremely uncertain and this makes me extremely anxious. The longer this goes on the more distressing it becomes. This is making my working life stressful on a daily basis. Annexed and marked JH1..." - should that be JL1?

PN287

Yes, JL1, thank you?---"...is a letter of 21st of May 2002 in regard to my application for the part time position advising me that I did not get it."

PN288

Thank you.

PN289

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you Ms Leonard. That completes everything for the moment. There will be no cross-examination at this stage. That may be required at a later date but for the present you are finished?---Thank you, your Honour.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.58 am]

PN290

MR REIDY: Lastly, could I briefly call - sorry, your Honour, we are just checking an annexure is correctly marked.

PN291

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Your next witness?

PN292

MR REIDY: Yes, David Stephens.

<DAVID ALAN STEPHENS, SWORN [11.00am]

<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR REIDY

PN293

MR REIDY: Your full name is David Alan A-L-A-N Stephens

PN294

S-T-E-P-H-E-N-S?---That's correct.

PN295

And you live at 23 Morriooa M-O-R-R-I-O-O-A Avenue, Carlingford?---Correct.

PN296

And you are an employee of GIO?---Correct.

PN297

Your role on your business card is Rectification Manager Personal Insurance?---Correct.

PN298

And that puts you in the motor vehicle assessor stream?---That's right.

PN299

You were at a meeting on 2 May 2002 where approximately 49 assessors were present?---That's correct.

PN300

That meeting was addressed by, amongst others, a Mark Milliner M-I-L-L-I-N-E-R, who is a manager, and Mr Russell Petrie

PN301

P-E-T-R-I-E and also present was a Mr Alan Pride P-R-I-D-E, manager, and a woman whose name you don't know, from Human Resources?---HR, yes.

PN302

Could you just briefly tell the Commission - do you recall something happening or being said in relation to positions of in-house assessors?---Yes. They said there would be 14 in-house assessors.

PN303

Can you explain the difference with these positions?---The in-house assessor doesn't require a motor car or a mobile phone because he will work in the centre all the time.

**** DAVID ALAN STEPHENS XN MR REIDY

PN304

Could you speak up a bit?---The in-house assessor doesn't require a car or a phone and he'll work in the centre all the time and the salary package would be considerably less than the on-road assessor's salary.

PN305

Just to get to the point, this was introducing a new style of assessment in that motor vehicles would actually be brought to a centre and assessed, rather than as currently happens, the assessors pop in a car and go all around the place to repairers?---Yes, that's right.

PN306

Can you tell the Commission in relation to those 14 positions, what was said to the meeting, by whom, about those positions and their availability?---I recollect that Mark Milliner said that he didn't expect to fill those 14 positions from the people within that room and that he was going to advertise them in The Herald that Saturday, which was done.

PN307

What can you say about those 14 positions being encouraged or presented as an option to the 49 people in the room at that meeting?---Well I think once he sort of said they were going to be advertised and that he didn't feel he'd fill them from that room, I don't think that gave the people a lot of confidence that they would be successful in one of those positions.

PN308

All right. You'll need to speak up, because the air conditioning is a little bit loud and I'm a bit hard of hearing. I just want to take you to one other issue. Of the people 49 who were present they are all effectively what you might call on-road assessors are they?---That's correct, yes.

PN309

So they had a mobile phone and a motor vehicle?---Yes.

PN310

What sort of motor vehicle is that, in terms of size?---Well the bulk of them are 6 cylinder Commodores.

**** DAVID ALAN STEPHENS XN MR REIDY

PN311

What relationship does that bear to their salary arrangements?---Well that's part of their fixed pay package, that they get a 6 cylinder Commodore.

PN312

And I take it then, there's a value ascribed to that in the package?---Yes, there is.

PN313

Do you know anything of a proposal in relation to change that?---Yes, Mr Milliner said that the cars would go to 4 cylinders and they'd either be a Camry, Astra or Laser, once the current vehicles were due for change over and that that decision had already been made by management and it wasn't up for discussion.

PN314

What is the consequence of that in relation to the fixed pay package?---Well that will make a difference in the package, because the 4 cylinder is not valued at the same value as the 6 cylinder.

PN315

So, are you saying that means a reduction or an increase?---I would assume it would mean a reduction, yes.

PN316

Has there been any change to that position that you are aware of in relation to the 4 cylinder vehicles?---Mark Milliner did phone me and say that they were going to look at it now.

PN317

Did he give you a reason for that?---Because he did feel it was going to disadvantage some people, so he was going to look at that situation.

PN318

But there is no resolution at the moment?---No, not at the moment.

PN319

That's the evidence of this witness at this stage.

PN320

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well. Thank you, Mr Stephens, that completes your evidence at the moment. You may be required for cross-examination at some stage in the future, but for today you have completed.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.05am]

PN321

MR REIDY: I take it that the Commission is familiar with the section 170LW application that has been filed and I won't take the Commission to the detail of that, but I will give if you like a mini-opening to assist us in focussing on what this application is about.

PN322

You will see that the residual issues if you like in the LW application that we are here about today, was actually the conversion of the branch network for the All Finance centres and the motor assessors.

PN323

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Which are quite separate matters, are they?

PN324

MR REIDY: Separate, but related in that if I can go to the detail of it. Certainly they are aspects of the same matter, but they have I suppose somewhat different complexions because of the nature of what people do. Motor assessors - there are some particular issues there in relation to the dispute and I will identify those. In fact they have been I think reasonably immediately identified in Mr Stephen's evidence.

PN325

The point that I want to really address is this, and I preface my remarks in this way. I assume and from a previous matter that your Honour has had before you that you are certainly aware of the corporate background getting here, so I'm not going to go over that again, but simply identify this, that as you would be aware Suncorp has been the buyer of businesses, including the GIO business in this particular case. Suncorp has had historically its own industrial relations culture and form of regulation. GIO as it is quite obvious from its award and its agreements, has a different culture and it is effectively Suncorp's ownership of GIO shares which has created if you like a clash of cultures that has led to the dispute which has generated the filing of this application.

PN326

In that regard the clash of cultures, if you like, is very neatly identified by having a look at what is the nature of the dispute in relation to the business restructuring and security of employment agreement, which I'll call it for shorthand. Your Honour is obviously aware of the two agreements. They are reflective and I will really just deal with the business restructuring one for ease, rather than duplicate references to both agreements.

PN327

If I'm doing it this way, in a sense by way of opening, particularise what it is that is the complaint and it is this, that there is a failure to adhere to that business restructuring agreement. In particular this, a failure in terms of the preamble to maintain a job security focus and that particularly relates to the motor vehicle assessor situation. Just ignoring for one minute issues of transmission of business and redundancy. The issue highlighted by Mr Stephens is in that focus, that there were 14 positions, admittedly inferior, but which were not in any proper form, offered to the existing motor vehicle assessors. So that's the first particular if you like.

PN328

We also say in terms - and I can refer particularly to the clauses of the agreement, without taking you to the letter of it - I am referring in particular to clauses 5.1 and 5.2 at this point - also say or particularise a failure to acknowledge the FSUs proper monitoring role which is referred to in clause 5.4 of the Agreement. The FSU rather than being as that agreement contemplates, very much involved in the business restructuring process, is on the case that we would put always the last to know and always has to extract information - a bit like going to the dentist and pulling teeth - slowly and painfully.

PN329

The next issue that we particularise is particularly a failure to have proper discussions with employees on redundancies. I might really say, at the risk of sounding overboard, but it is really when one looks at it and looks at the documentation particularly - I won't take you to the detail of it - a rather dog's breakfast of a way of dealing with people and dealing with the way that the business restructuring agreement should be applied. There's no orderly way in which it is done and no reference to the agreement.

PN330

In particular in relation to the all finance people in the Carlingford branch, people that you've heard today, a failure to really have the proper discussions contemplated by the agreement with those people on the issue of redundancies. The same in respect of the motor vehicle assessors. That is a reference to clause 7.1. There is also a failure to have those discussions including with the union as soon as practicable as required by clause 7.2. I suppose that is an aspect of something I raised under clauses 5.1 and 5.2.

PN331

There has also been a failure to discuss the restructuring and transformation as it is called in the documentation in a way that would minimise the impact of the terminations and particularly the adverse effects on employees. You have heard from two employees today by way of example of that particular. Particularly I suppose in case in point is Mrs Leonard who has some consequences in relation to her carer's situation and the impact upon her and her position which clearly haven't been properly discussed. I refer there to clause 7.2.

PN332

Next, it will be our case that there was a failure to apply the transmission requirements with the transmission from GIO Australia of its personnel services functions to Suncorp Metway Limited. These are dealt with in clause 8. What we essentially say here is this. GIO Australia Limited is provider of personnel services within the Suncorp GIO Group. Suncorp as sole shareholder of GIO Australia Limited is seeking to reorganise the provision of those personnel services functions to move into the company's Suncorp Metway Staff Limited.

PN333

There has been no recognition that that transmission of the provision of personnel services business from GIO to Suncorp Metway carries with it consequences under clause 8 of the business restructuring agreement. A complete failure to acknowledge that. As you would have heard from the evidence of the two witnesses, Mrs Gambrill and Mrs Leonard, their stated desire to take with them their GIO conditions as they would and the union would claim they are entitled to by virtue of clause 8 via transmission. I have dealt with that, that is clause 8.

PN334

The next issue arises under clause 9.2. We say there has been no attempt to identify at all either acceptable alternative positions or voluntary alternative positions within GIO and to give no statement or information in that regard. So, there is a complete lack of knowledge certainly when one has regard to the consultation and monitoring processed contemplated for the union which gives us any information as to the existence of what I might call AAPs or VAPs as comprehended by clause 9.2.

PN335

Another issue is the failure to have employees complete, as contemplated by clause 9.3, a preference form. If one reads the context of the agreement there is a procedure fairly early on where redundancies are identified that requires employees effectively to fill out a form and put their hand up for whether or not they want a redundancy. The failure to apply that process properly and in a coherent way, if at all, really has consequences further down the track when one looks at what the Commission has certified in this agreement made between the parties concerning a restructuring procedure which is meant to be done in an industrially fair and humane way. I think I have identified that particular as clause 9.3. There has certainly also been a failure to advise employees of their entitlements. Particularly under clauses 10, 11, 12, 13 and 14. In fact quite contrary advice has been given that they have no entitlements and a positive requirement in respect of that is to be found in clause 9.5.

PN336

In relation to clause 9.11 we say that again as part of the coherent methodology under the agreement for dealing with the situation. I might just interpose to say that we don't really have precise numbers but we understand somewhere in the order of about 150 people are the subject of similar circumstances to Mrs Leonard and Mrs Gambrill, but I stand to be corrected on that. I will just get some instructions on that. We are still a little bit unclear without advice as to the exact numbers involved. Again, in relation to clause 9.11 there was a failure to provide redeployment offers in the manner required which required that salary levels be quoted, that the level of the position be quoted, that the location and position be given and that proper position descriptions be given.

PN337

Again in relation to clause 9.12 we say there has been failure to adhere to the retrenchment regime under that provision which requires retrenchment of employees have who not expressed an interest of redeployment within GIO, and that is clause 9.12. The next one is a consequence of the problem with the nomination form that I identified earlier because under clause 10 we say there has been a failure to apply the selection for retrenchment provisions based on the nominations made by employees and that arises from clause 10 and we finally say that there has been a failure to properly apply the severance pay provisions in clause 12.

PN338

So, to round that off the point I make is that compendiously and brought all together we have through these various failures to adhere to the business restructuring agreement, a mess in relation to the people who are the subject of the restructuring arrangements and we have a disorderly way in which this has been carried out. We have also, through the evidence of Mrs Leonard and Mrs Campbell but Mrs Leonard in particular expressed - well, both of them expressed concern about the fact that they had been dealt with in a way that they certainly consider unfair on account of their insistence on maintaining their rightful GIO conditions consequent upon the transmission which may be an issue for another place but certainly in terms of this LW application is a matter of some significance.

PN339

In terms of, I suppose, focusing attention on those particulars in a draft sense and so that the Commission and Mr Harmer's client knows where we are going with this ultimately, we have done some preliminary draft orders which attempt to address the particularisation. If I could again hand those up at this stage for information. They do provide a neat focus.

PN340

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.

PN341

MR REIDY: You might need to mark that.

PN342

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am just trying to see whether I marked the one that was produced in Melbourne. I don't think I did so I won't mark this one.

PN343

MR REIDY: Does your Honour want to mark that in the same way as the other ones?

PN344

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No I won't because I didn't mark the Melbourne one.

PN345

MR REIDY: Right, okay. We will just leave it there to one side then at this stage but I thought it might be of some assistance. The position is this. We obviously have an application. We have a desire to have that application progressed. We have, through the witnesses if you like in a prima facie way, attempted to demonstrate that there is urgency there which is affecting people in a real way and so the attempt behind this application is to seek to have it progress speedily so that people can be provided with some certainty in their working lives and as you can see from the two women who were here today their personal circumstances and their ages it cannot be extremely easy for them and those like them to be going through this. That is really what I want to say by way of opening at this stage.

PN346

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Harmer?

PN347

MR HARMER: Thank you, your Honour. Your Honour, subject to the views of the Commission I don't intend to open in response if you like. It would suffice to say at this point in time that on the basis of my instructions there are some difference factually between the parties and certainly some differences of interpretation but as I said earlier our primary objective today is to attempt, through he assistance of the Commission, to resolve the issues raised in conciliation and certainly we are conscious of the issues raised about urgency and the concerns of the employees concerned. Your Honour, I did foreshadow on Friday and again I repeat, we have a number of issues about how far the matter could be progressed under LW. Unless the Commission is so minded I don't intend to take the Commissioner's time up with that but those issues prior to conciliation and certainly if the matters are resolved in conciliation there would be no need.

PN348

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I regard what you said on Friday as applying to the whole of the proceedings, Mr Harmer.

PN349

MR HARMER: I am sorry?

PN350

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I regard what you said on Friday to cover the whole of the proceedings.

PN351

MR HARMER: Yes, thank you, your Honour. So, subject to the Commission, we would not seek to take up further time and would seek to have the matter adjourned into conference if the Commission pleases.

PN352

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you that is what I intend to do. I will adjourn into conference.

OFF THE RECORD [11.28am]

RESUMES [5.20pm]

PN353

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There have been a number of discussions both before the Commission and independently this afternoon as a result I understand that there is a document to be read onto transcript by Mr Harmer on behalf of the employer and I invite you, Mr Harmer, to do that now.

PN354

MR HARMER: Thank you, your Honour. I would like to thank the Commission for the opportunity to continue discussions this afternoon. As a result, by consent the company is to issue the following communication to those staff concerning the all finance offers and commits to conduct itself accordingly:

PN355

(1) All offers of employment for work in the all finance branches with Suncorp Metway including any offers issued after 27 May 2002 will remain valid and will be capable of being accepted at any time up to and including 30 June 2002. There is no obligation to accept prior to 30 June 2002.

PN356

(2) Employees can raise any questions concerning their offer and any aspect of their circumstances with their line manager or HR consultant.

PN357

Just as an aside there I note that discussions, it is acknowledged by the company, that the FSU can and will communicate with their members and indicate that the company has no objection to, obviously, employees discussing the matter with their union.

PN358

(3) Any GIO employee who has accepted or who may accept an offer of employment with Suncorp Metway Staff Limited in an all finance position will not be prejudiced from claiming the benefits or rights under the GIO agreements as a result of any subsequent determination of the Commission.

PN359

(4) Prior to the 30 June 2002 there will no offers issued to employees at GIO branches to work within the Parramatta Call centre.

PN360

If the Commission pleases I think that concludes the matters arranged between the parties.

PN361

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you Mr Harmer. In addition to what has already been said the Commission issues the following directions for the hearing of threshold matters raised by GIO Australia:

PN362

(1) GIO is to file and serve an outline of its submissions on the threshold matters not later than Monday 3 June 2002.

PN363

(2) The FSU is to file and serve an outline of its submissions on threshold matters not later than Monday 10 June 2002.

PN364

(3) The parties are to confer and produce an agreed statement of facts and file it not later than Friday 14 June 2002.

PN365

(4) The threshold matters will be heard on Monday 17 June 2002.

PN366

In addition the Commission directs the parties to confer themselves on the two issues of all finance and motor vehicle excesses raised in the notification. It is noted that GIO will supply FSU with further identified documentary material relating to the all finance issue. There will be a report back on 17 June on the two subjects already referred to and the Victorian Workers Compensation issue. The parties are at liberty to apply.

PN367

The Commission is adjourned indefinitely.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [5.22pm]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

COLLEEN GAMBRILL, SWORN PN238
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR REIDY PN238
MFI #FSU5I STATEMENT OF COLLEEN GAMBRILL PN249
WITNESS WITHDREW PN269
JANIS LORRAINE LEONARD, SWORN PN270
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR REIDY PN270
MFI #FSU6I AFFIDAVIT OF JAN LEONARD PN279
WITNESS WITHDREW PN290
DAVID ALAN STEPHENS, SWORN PN293
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR REIDY PN293
WITNESS WITHDREW PN321