C2002/2549, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 2136 (12 June 2002)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114 MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
DX 305 Melbourne Tel:[phone] Fax:[phone]

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N VT04209

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER ROBERTS

C2002/2549

AUSTRALIAN NURSING FEDERATION

and

MAROONDAH HOSPITAL

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of a dispute re staff carparking arrangements

MELBOURNE

2.12 PM, WEDNESDAY, 29 MAY 2002

PN1

MS L. CHELIGOY: I appear for the Australian Nursing Federation Vic Branch and appearing with me today MS L. DUGGAN, also an employee of the branch.

PN2

MR R. CORBOY: I appear for VHIA and with me is MS M. SPENCER from Maroondah Hospital and MR P. CROCKFORD.

PN3

MR C. HEUSTON: I seek leave to intervene in these proceedings on behalf of the Health Services Union of Australia.

PN4

THE COMMISSIONER: What do the parties say about intervention?

PN5

MS CHELIGOY: No objection, your Honour.

PN6

MR CORBOY: I do have a problem with Mr Heuston intervening, Commissioner, on the basis that we prepared this case today regarding the ANF application. If we had known that Mr Heuston was being here we would have prepared more documentation reflecting his particular concerns. I am not sure how today's proceedings will go. I suspect they may end up in some conference. But I do have concerns about that, that if Mr Heuston raises any issues which we are unprepared for, we would need to seek time to come back to the Commissioner.

PN7

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Heuston, tell me why you need to intervene.

PN8

MR HEUSTON: This is an issue which effects members of the HSUA as much as the members of the ANF and the concerns of the HSUA and the ANF are identical and have been for the months of this dispute.

PN9

THE COMMISSIONER: So I take it you both share this carparking area?

PN10

MR HEUSTON: That is correct.

PN11

THE COMMISSIONER: On that basis I will grant intervention, subject to Mr Corboy's right to reserve his reply perhaps on some matters that you may raise but we are going to go into conciliation after we have had a brief, and I emphasise brief, outline on transcript what the outstanding issues are. I don't want the case run now, that is what I am saying.

PN12

MS CHELIGOY: Thank you, Commissioner. You just want me to, sort of, summarise where we are with this?

PN13

THE COMMISSIONER: Just give me the Fantale wrapper, the dispute.

PN14

MS CHELIGOY: One of those. Commissioner, this is - the issue of carparking arose out of plans by Maroondah Hospital to redevelop parts of the existing site where staff currently have free carparking arrangements in place. The issue of carparking was first raised in January as part of the redevelopment process and a proposal was announced by Maroondah Hospital to arrange off-site carparking some five kilometres away from the site of the Maroondah Hospital.

PN15

It is fair to say that in summary the bulk of the issues relating to the carparking arrangements have been addressed in good faith by both parties, by all parties I should say, through a consultative committee process which has identified staff concerns as we go along. We are now at the point where we have essentially three threshold issues that for the staff are very much at the forefront of their resistance to the proposal to relocate the carparking and they can be categorised as the payment methodology, the outstanding security issues and an access issue for existing staff and for visiting staff and students.

PN16

THE COMMISSIONER: What is the payment methodology about? That is a nice broad term.

PN17

MS CHELIGOY: At this stage, the hospital is proposing to charge $2 per shift per carpark.

PN18

THE COMMISSIONER: Per car?

PN19

MS CHELIGOY: Per car, yes. The staff currently have free carparking.

PN20

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN21

MS CHELIGOY: So that is one aspect to it. The other is the - and in terms of the way the health system in Victoria operates and the charges that are imposed by other hospitals, that carparking cost is not huge compared to what other hospitals charge for their carparking. However, the payment methodology is at odds with what we say is fair and reasonable and that is because the hospital is planning to use an averaging system to charge people for carparks and direct deduct from their pay.

PN22

We say that in this computer age it is surely - if you are going to pay somebody for seven shifts in a fortnightly period, why can't you charge them for seven shifts in the same computer run? Why, if you work six shifts this fortnight, seven shifts the next fortnight, seven shifts the following fortnight, you are going to be charged for seven shifts - when you have only worked 20 you will be charged for 21. And for periods of less than five days sick leave you will be charged anyway.

PN23

So there are problems with the way the hospital plans to implement the payment method and we say that it is - to me, that is sort of silly stuff. I don't understand quite why there is a problem with it.

PN24

THE COMMISSIONER: So what do you want? I mean, do you object to the payment per se?

PN25

MS CHELIGOY: Well, the members have given me instructions, Commissioner, that they don't like the idea of being charged for the carpark.

PN26

THE COMMISSIONER: I am sure they wouldn't.

PN27

MS CHELIGOY: And they particularly don't like the averaging method proposed by the hospital to reimburse the hospital for the carparking arrangements. So I guess we could envisage splitting the issue and saying, okay, we will pay the $2 per shift per car if the payment methodology issue is fixed up and it is not an averaging, it is an actual usage system rather than a - - -

PN28

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, that was the question I was coming to. So if you were stung $2 a time for the actual times you were there you would wear that?

PN29

MS CHELIGOY: I think the members would wear that.

PN30

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. That is good for you to be so frank with me. It saves us a lot of time.

PN31

MS CHELIGOY: Well, we have got - I mean, I have got some concerns about transcript writers having to write reams and reams of notes for something that will - - -

PN32

THE COMMISSIONER: And it all coming back to haunt you as well.

PN33

MS CHELIGOY: All coming back to haunt me at the end. The other - the security issue is perhaps a little bit more difficult to find a solution to because, as you know the winter months are coming and it gets dark at 6 o'clock, we have theatre staff who finish after 6.30 whose cars will be impounded, basically, because there doesn't seem to be any resolution to getting the cars out if they finish after 7 pm at night. And there is the issue of the fact that this carpark is on a fairly big street called Maroondah Highway and there are concerns about street crime, there are concerns about their cars being parked there and being, sort of, available, I suppose, for anybody with nefarious intentions.

PN34

And there is the problem of being dropped off at the carpark gate and walking to the carpark in the dark.

PN35

THE COMMISSIONER: Tell me about that. Is there a sort of shuttle service or?

PN36

MS CHELIGOY: There is going to be a shuttle service and I understand the bus is going to pick them up at the gate of the carpark, take them down to the hospital and drop them off. I think that is planned. But the members have a concern about going from the gate to the car and because they don't have an opportunity during the course of their shift to go up and move their cars closer to the gates, I mean, it is first come, best dressed kind of arrangements, it will make it difficult for them to feel secure going from the bus to their cars.

PN37

THE COMMISSIONER: What proportion of those people would be female?

PN38

MS CHELIGOY: It is - I mean, you would have to say - - -

PN39

THE COMMISSIONER: A guess.

PN40

MS CHELIGOY: - - - somewhere around 80 per cent, easily that, maybe even higher. My personal knowledge of the theatre arrangements at Maroondah is probably 95 per cent of them are female which puts them in that vulnerable category again. The access issue is really about encouraging visiting students and agency staff members to be able to access carparking arrangements, otherwise the hospital won't be seen as the popular option for them to come to and the staff are concerned that they will drop down that list of preferred hospitals for new starters in the nursing field. So I think that in terms of the issues that just about sums it up.

PN41

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that informs me very well.

PN42

MS CHELIGOY: Thank you, Commissioner.

PN43

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Heuston, have your go.

PN44

MR HEUSTON: I think Ms Cheligoy has summarised both our concerns very well. I would also like to add, I think, that there is probably another concern of our members about the introduction of this, is the effect it will have on their family lives in that they will expect that the introduction of an off-site carpark will probably add about close to half an hour each side of the shift every day now. For many of our members who have family commitments that is a large burden on them. And also, from our perspective, the payment outright, even of $2 a day, which might not seem like a lot in comparison to other hospitals throughout the State, is still seen as not accessible when there are many of our members that will decline to take up the option of $2 a day regardless.

PN45

The members that I am here representing are amongst the lowest paid at the hospital including cleaners - - -

PN46

THE COMMISSIONER: That is not really - I mean, people who decide, for argument sake, if it does come in at $2 a day, if they decide not to use it that is really not an issue, is it?

PN47

MR HEUSTON: That is an issue that is affecting our members and I think that the payment method is probably of greater concern for the majority of our members.

PN48

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay, thank you. Mr Corboy.

PN49

MR CORBOY: Thank you, Commissioner. This has been the subject of many ministered meetings that have been going on between the parties. The redevelopment is, I think all parties believe, quite necessary to expand the emergency department and to put in a new 30-bed ward at the hospital. The need is quite clearly demonstrated. The staff, under their contract or under their arrangements, have never been offered guaranteed carparking.

PN50

There is free carparking available on a first come, first served basis on site and there is street parking for the balance. I believe visitors, including myself, often have to struggle with carparking at Maroondah. It is not something that is actually new to people. When we come to the issue of, I suppose, consultation that has gone on, there have been fortnightly meetings with consultation with the parties and, also, there has been planned meetings where the unions have been briefed on these particular matters.

PN51

At these parties [sic] there have been representation invited from the unions but not everyone is able to turn up at those minutes. I would like to hand up to the Commission a bundle of documents. I won't take you to all of them, I will just take you to some of them, as regards the consultation that has gone on and perhaps we can use these documents as an area of identifying concern.

PN52

THE COMMISSIONER: You will want me to have regard to all of them, even if you only refer to some of them?

PN53

MR CORBOY: Well, yes, Commissioner, they are quite important.

PN54

THE COMMISSIONER: Have the other parties been supplied with copies?

PN55

MR CORBOY: I am just about to supply copies, Commissioner. Unfortunately, I have only brought one copy for the ANF. I haven't brought another copy for the HSUA.

PN56

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, perhaps later you can do that.

PN57

MR CORBOY: Certainly.

PN58

THE COMMISSIONER: Perhaps Mr Heuston can read over your shoulder for the moment.

PN59

MR CORBOY: Okay. There is a spare copy for the Commission ..... don't mark it.

PN60

THE COMMISSIONER: I just want the applicant to have a look at these documents prior to them being entered into evidence.

PN61

MR CORBOY: Certainly.

PN62

MS CHELIGOY: Commissioner, if I may, I am sure that in the file I have before me I have probably got a similar record and I am quite happy to say we take them as read because I don't believe that they advance the hospital's argument in terms of the issues that I have raised - - -

PN63

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN64

MS CHELIGOY: - - - since I have already acknowledged that the bulk of the issues relating to the carparking issue have already been resolved and we are talking about threshold matters.

PN65

THE COMMISSIONER: With respect, I am only asking if you object to them being tendered.

PN66

MS CHELIGOY: No, Commissioner.

PN67

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay.

EXHIBIT #R1 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS

PN68

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Corboy.

PN69

MR CORBOY: Thank you, Commissioner. Regard the - I suppose we could just focus on the three issues. The first one is the payment methodology. There have been - there is a process where the - and it is in the summary - where there was a survey sent out to staff. If you have a look at the summary documentation, the fifth one from the bottom. The carparking survey was sent out in February. The results of that survey were fed back to the committee. The carparking charges of $2 have been benchmarked against other hospitals and we have the situation where it is quite clear that staff are not compelled to join this scheme.

PN70

It is only if staff wish to access the, what they call, the penguin site carparking and staff parking on site. The reason why this has come about is because there is such a profound lack of carparking and space around Maroondah Hospital they had to seek which was the largest or the best carparking site available. The penguin site is the only identified carpark available where the hospital can access at a reasonable lease. These leasing arrangements are going for 18 months.

PN71

Into the calculations the hospital has calculated for leasing of two buses, a larger bus and a smaller bus, to drive staff to and from. They have also calculated in there the flood lighting, the fencing, including barbed wire, and the paying on this penguin site. And with all those costs they have come up with a figure of $2 per day. The board have said that they are quite willing to go into this initiative which cost $374,000, from what I am instructed, provided it is cost neutral and the figures are close enough to cost neutral as Maroondah Hospital can attain.

PN72

They are about 99.2 per cent within cost neutrality. There is a small margin in there of some couple of thousand dollars which enables for any contingencies that may - so perhaps fuel prices will go up in that 18 months. But that is the amount of contingency that they have allowed. If I may take the Commission to a few of the documents. The first document in is a summary, the communication processes, and then after that we have minutes of the meeting on 21 May.

PN73

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN74

MR CORBOY: In these minutes, unfortunately, Louise Duggan, who is present in the Commission today, was an apology that I believe items 1.1 and 1.8 relate to the safety or the security issues that were raised previously. And as far the out of hours carparking accessing for theatre staff, this has been addressed in prior correspondence where there are special arrangements being made for those staff to be delivered to their cars and the carpark unlocked if they finish after 7 o'clock at night. So no one's cars will be impounded. But if - I believe those are the issues that have been addressed as far as security are concerned.

PN75

When we go back through the minutes, on 7 May, Commissioner, if you turn a couple of pages over, that matter I discussed regarding the theatre staff is addressed at point 1.3. So the organisation believes they have addressed that particular issue. When we get to the staff choice matter, that is 1.10 on the minutes of 7 May, where the staff are clearly advised there is no compulsion for them to participate in this process. And the last one I want to draw the Commission's attention to is staff information pack, it is about four more pages in, dated 3 May. It has a black banner on top of it, identifying it.

PN76

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN77

MR CORBOY: And the Commission would like to - that is a whole lot of information about the process. And over the page it has got after hours on the first column, three-quarters of the way down. It, again, highlights that staff out of hours will not be disadvantaged, all right. So that there are arrangements in place to address those. When we are talking about the payment methodology - - -

PN78

THE COMMISSIONER: Perhaps I can ask you a question about methodology, even before you - - -

PN79

MR CORBOY: Certainly. Sorry, Commissioner.

PN80

THE COMMISSIONER: Perhaps I can ask you a question about methodology, even before you go into it.

PN81

MR CORBOY: Yes.

PN82

THE COMMISSIONER: Under your system, will people be charged for times when they are not there?

PN83

MR CORBOY: Now, there are two systems involved, Commissioner. If I may address those two systems. Under the first system for the permanent staff, it is up to the staff to nominate how many shifts per week or per fortnight or per month they usually work. If they pick up extra shifts they won't be charged for them. Unfortunately, to keep it low cost, this is the only way it can be done. And into that methodology, and I realise why I can't find the documentation, I can hand up a sample of the methodology to the Commission.

PN84

What has been compiled is a spreadsheet, Commissioner.

[2.32pm]

EXHIBIT #R2 SPREADSHEET

PN85

MR CORBOY: Thank you. You will see as we go along persons 1 to 6 have been identified. They identify the number of shifts per month they are likely to work, being a four-week period, which picks up your ADOs. Therefore, for staff members working ADOs they will only nominate 19 shifts if they are full time. If they - they can also nominate the number of shifts per fortnight. And the number of weeks annual leave is also considered where the employees, if they are a full weeker then they will only be having this in operation for 48 weeks a year maximum. If they are five weeks, etcetera, it comes down to 47 and six weeks comes down to 46.

PN86

So within that is a process where the deduction in the second column, they look unusual amounts, but it is a result of a formula of being multiplied through an averaged back to that amount. So that the hospital believes what they can to take account of most allowances within that. The hospital has also said that if anyone is absent for more than five days they will receive a refund but they can't, at this stage, pick up a single day absence. Converse for this, as I mentioned, with a part timer, if they work extra shifts they don't pay for them. It is - once they nominate the shifts that stays in place.

PN87

The hospital has offered to reconcile these once a year if staff members believe they have been aggrieved. But they say if they are going to reconcile it that that is when the two-way street argument comes in. If they worked extra shifts they may have to pay for them. If they haven't worked - if they need a refund then they will receive a refund. With the casuals, they will be working on an averaging system where - - -

PN88

THE COMMISSIONER: That reconciliation will be at the request of the staff member would it?

PN89

MR CORBOY: Of the staff member concerned, yes.

PN90

THE COMMISSIONER: I am sure they will do their figures before they ask for one.

PN91

MR CORBOY: Most probably they would, Commissioner. I am sure staff would do that. With the casuals, they have been - there is a process of they will estimate the number of shifts and there will be a three-monthly reconciliation of the casuals. Now, when we go to the payment methods, the union was advised in correspondence that the payment method of allocating per shift through the payroll was, unfortunately, not available through the payroll system and that was a letter to Louise Duggan on 2 May and that is within your bundle of documents, Commissioner, just after the ANF - sorry, just after Maroondah information pack.

PN92

So they were advised that, unfortunately, that is not available through the payroll system. Now, when we come to the third issue for students and agency staff, these people do not have access to carparking at Maroondah. They just make arrangements where they can find one. If they can find a carpark it is of their benefit. And the hospital has said, very straightforwardly, that their concern is for their own staff, for the permanent staff and then the nurse bank staff.

PN93

As far as agencies are concerned, I believe the state government has put a blanket on agency staff so we are surprised to find out they are part of the consideration. But we understand the ANFs concern about possible future developments. Now, we believe it may be resolved through conciliation. From an organisation point of view, we are disappointed because under the grievance process within the award there is usually a step where they would either contact the CEO of the hospital, which is the third step, or if it still breaks down then to involve the HIA before it is brought to the Commission's attention.

PN94

We are here today and we see if we can make some progress through conciliation. If the Commission pleases.

PN95

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, as all parties would be aware, section 100 of the Act requires me to conciliate, anyway, a notification of a dispute. So we will now adjourn into conference and see if we can bat out a resolution. We are adjourned into conference.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [2.36pm]

RESUMED [3.51pm]

PN96

THE COMMISSIONER: This matter is now resumed. For the record, I would like to report that I have had the opportunity to speak to each of the parties separately and the parties have fruitfully conferred together over some period of time and I am told that there is now the basis for an agreement. And who is going to report to me on that?

PN97

MS CHELIGOY: I have got that happy detail, Commissioner.

PN98

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN99

MS CHELIGOY: I am pleased to advise the Commission that we have, indeed, had lengthy discussions about the three outstanding matters and I will just take them as, sort of, generic headings. On the security issue, the hospital has agreed that out of hours - employees who are working out of hours shift arrangements or finishing beyond 7 pm, which is the time when the carpark, the penguin carpark will be locked up, will be escorted back to their cars by the use of a mini bus.

PN100

The bus driver will be unlocking the two gate arrangements to allow access to their vehicles and employees will be driven to the vehicles and, of course, be leaving the carpark before the bus to enable the bus driver to lock up after they have gone. A telephone has been installed at the carpark site to enable staff members to phone the hospital should they experience car difficulties of some form or other in times other than the out of hours times because, obviously, there will be an escort there to make sure that they can get their vehicle going.

PN101

And this matter will be the subject of ongoing review through the consultative committee which has been set up to oversee and monitor the redevelopment process. On the payments issue, Maroondah Hospital has agreed to reduce the charges to the employees by using the formula that was tabled in R2, further reduced by four days per year per employee which will result in a further reduction in cost to employees on their pre-tax earnings. So that, in effect, the exhibit R2 will be reduced by the impact of the additional four days per employee per day.

PN102

The employer has also agreed to quarterly requests - quarterly audits on request by the employees where five days or more absences will be taken into account. This process of the whole payments issue may be back here in 12 months time, but the parties have agreed to review the payments matter in 12 months. In terms of access, particularly for agency staff and visiting students, the parties are in agreement that ongoing staff or regular employees of the hospital have priority and priority access to the penguin carpark site.

PN103

However, the hospital has agreed that the usage will be measured and the system bedded down over the coming months and following that process the visiting students and agency staff may wel be offered access to the parking on the site if the usage rates demonstrates that there are spaces there for them. This is also going to be a forward agenda item for the consultative committee. At this point, Commissioner, the parties are agreed that this outcome is for the Maroondah Hospital site only.

PN104

However, I believe it would be remiss of me not to reserve my right to represent members at other sites should they arise similar issues in the future.

PN105

THE COMMISSIONER: But once again, those issues would be specific to their sites?

PN106

MS CHELIGOY: That is right, Commissioner. If the Commission pleases.

PN107

THE COMMISSIONER: So if the other two participants can advise me for the record whether that is an accurate representation of the settlement.

PN108

MR CORBOY: If I may speak, Commissioner. There is only one thing on the quarterly audit. It has been discussed between the parties that the staff will recognise if they have worked extra shifts that they will be charged for those extra shifts. In other words, it is a two-way street process in that audit process. Apart from that, I concur with Ms Cheligoy and thank her for her efforts in this matter. If the Commission pleases.

PN109

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Heuston.

PN110

MR HEUSTON: Thank you, Commissioner. Yes, I would just like to agree with both parties on that one. I would like to agree with one party more than the other but, never mind, we have reached what seems to be an agreement and I would like to see the issue resolved and I think that might have just done the trick. But we will see.

PN111

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Well, I would like to say that I congratulate the parties on a rare exercise of good sense in this jurisdiction. Not on their part, generally I am talking about. This matter is now adjourned.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [3.57pm]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #R1 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS PN68
EXHIBIT #R2 SPREADSHEET PN85