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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114 MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
DX 305 Melbourne Tel:(03) 9672-5608 Fax:(03) 9670-8883
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N VT04255
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
DEPUTY PRESIDENT IVES
C2002/2562
CPSU, THE COMMUNITY AND PUBLIC SECTOR
UNION-PSU GROUP, VICTORIAN BRANCH
and
CSL LIMITED
Notification pursuant to section 99 of the
Act of a dispute re CSLs treatment of
employees with parental responsibilities,
the obligation of CSL to assist employees
balance of work and family responsibilities
and threat to terminate employee returning
from maternity leave who is unable to
comply with the hours of work determined by
Company
MELBOURNE
1.32 PM, FRIDAY, 31 MAY 2002
Continued from 23.5.02
PN62
MS M. COOPER: I appear with MR T. WARD for the CPSU.
PN63
MR G. WHITLEY: I appear for CSL and appearing with me today is MS L. MOKDESSI and also MR C. COOK who is a solicitor with Freehills who does not seek to appear today but is present.
PN64
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Look, from the point of view of progressing this matter as efficiently as is possible in the timeframe I thought it might be appropriate, as there has been a jurisdictional objection raised, that I deal with that matter first of all rather than take any submissions into the merits. What I would propose to do is hear both the parties on the jurisdictional issue, adjourn briefly. I will provide a decision on that. If that decision goes in favour of the respondent then obviously there is not too much point in any hearing of the merits. If it goes in favour of the applicant then I would proceed in the time left to us as at least as far as we can to hear the merits of the matter. Is that suitable to the parties? Yes. All right, Mr Whitley, it is your objection so I should hear you in the first instance.
PN65
MR WHITLEY: Thank you, Deputy President. I would like to apologise firstly because there was about an hour's delay, as I understand, in serving our documentation as required by your directions on the CPSU, and I believe that it arrived about 6 o'clock or thereabouts but I expect that hour or so's delay wouldn't have unnecessarily prejudiced their position. So I expect that that wouldn't be a significant impediment.
PN66
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I am sure they will have a view on that, Mr Whitley, but I would proceed at this stage with your submissions in respect of the jurisdictional issue.
PN67
MR WHITLEY: Okay. I trust your Honour has received all the company's written submissions and I will use some notes to refer to as I talk to that. As stated in our submissions, CSL submits that it has a strong argument in relation to the merits of this case but we submit also that the Commission doesn't have jurisdiction to hear and determine the matter in any event. This is because a dispute, this dispute in particular is not an industrial dispute for the purposes of section 99 of the Workplace Relations Act and rather it is just a personal grievance. The authorities on what constitutes an industrial dispute are clear and so I don't propose to address them in any detail at this point.
PN68
However, in Lisa Brown and Another v Commonwealth Bank, which is print N9426, the Commission was notified that - under section 99 of an existence of an alleged dispute between Lisa Brown and her former employer, the Commonwealth Bank. Like the matter presently before the Commission today this matter related to the bank's policy in relation to job placement of Mrs Brown upon her return from maternity leave. Commissioner Whelan stated that for the dispute between Ms Brown and the bank to have an industrial character sufficient to invoke the Commission's jurisdiction under section 99 it must contain an implication or likely repercussion or dislocation for the banking industry.
PN69
As a consequence of not being satisfied that the dispute contained such an implication Commissioner Whelan held that the Commission did not have jurisdiction to deal with the dispute under section 99. In the present matter there is no evidence that Ms Angelis' personal grievance with the company contains within it an implication of likely repercussion or dislocation for the industry in which CSL operates. As the transcript of 23 May 2002 indicates the dispute goes no wider than the relationship between the employee in question and the employer. Therefore CSL submits that the Commission does not have jurisdiction to deal with the dispute under section 99 of the Workplace Relations Act.
PN70
The notifier filed and served a witness statement of Julie Minnette which indicated - - -
PN71
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am sorry, can I just interrupt you for a minute there, Mr Whitley. You say that the dispute as it currently is goes no further than the employer and the employee concerned. Is that what - - -
PN72
MR WHITLEY: The particular employee, yes.
PN73
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I was of the view that this was an application by the CPSU. So are you saying they are not involved in the dispute or - - -
PN74
MR WHITLEY: The view I take on that is that in form the CPSU is the notifier but in substance, in reality, it affects just one employee and that is Ms Angelis. It doesn't go any broader than that.
PN75
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Mr Whitley.
PN76
MR WHITLEY: Picking up where I left off, the notifier filed and served a witness statement from Julie Minnette which indicated that CSL has had problems with people returning to work from maternity leave. The statement suggests that people returning to CSL from maternity leave face opposition and inflexibility from the company and that requests for part-time employment are not dealt with in a fair and flexible manner. These allegations are particularly vague and do not cite any examples which would convince the Commission that Ms Angelis' personal grievance with the company contains with it an implication of likely repercussion or dislocation for the industry in which CSL operates.
PN77
The company denies the allegations in any event and CSL treats employees taking maternity leave and returning from maternity leave, or in this case returning from long service following maternity leave, in a fair manner and consistently and we show flexibility in the treatment of such employees. That is all I have to say at the moment.
PN78
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So in your last statement then, Mr Whitley, are you saying that in denying the claims made by the union in this matter - is that what you just said to me, that there is a claim made by the union in this matter to do with the treatment of individuals returning from maternity leave which the company denies?
PN79
MR WHITLEY: It is about an individual case in an individual circumstance. So we were looking at the application of a particular - - -
PN80
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am sorry, I was simply trying to get you to explain to me your last statement because it seemed to me that you said, and I was just seeking some clarification of it, that there has been claims made by the union with respect to some general treatment of employees returning from maternity leave and it then seemed to me that you said that in any event the company denies such claims.
PN81
MR WHITLEY: There is no substance that I can address. It is just a vague statement that purports to be or is an attempt to broaden it out to say this is a universal problem. If it was a universal problem we would have been here repeatedly I would suggest, but there is no supporting evidence there to say this is some policy we are applying to discriminate or to treat people unfairly or to otherwise victimise people based on their return from maternity leave.
PN82
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Thanks, Mr Whitley. Yes, Ms Cooper.
PN83
MS COOPER: Yes, your Honour. We would say that this matter clearly does have an industrial character, contrary to the submissions of CSL. We feel that that is indicated by the transcript of the earlier hearing of this matter in which we mentioned, of course, the matter that you are also involved in with Ms Mahoney. Mr Whitley talks about the witness statement of Ms Minnette in relation to other employees being affected. Ms Minnette is here and is capable of providing specific evidence to the Commission if it is required on the particular instances of what she would or what she has seen as discrimination and inflexibility in CSLs approach to women attempting to return from maternity leave in similar circumstances.
PN84
So in that context we say it does have broad repercussions to the industry, it is an industrial matter of quite some breadth. The union is concerned that here we are again within four weeks with another similar matter as we were here a little while ago with Ms Mahoney. So in that context we see that it is much broader than just an individual employer and an individual employee. It is much bigger than a grievance. It goes to the heart of hours of work and the responsibilities of CSL to abide by its commitments and its undertakings in respect of taking heed of people's family responsibilities in their working life.
PN85
However, if the Commission is of the view that it is not an industrial dispute within the meaning of section 4(1) we would say that it is open to the Commission to find that it is a dispute within the meaning of section 493 of the Act. That is at this stage anyway that the dispute is within the limits of Victoria and is about matters pertaining to the relationship of employer and employee or a situation that is likely to give rise to such a dispute and I would rely on my previous statements to support that contention. However, we would say that the original dispute in this matter, as we have said before, although I don't have a copy of the log of claims clearly would have comprehended hours of work and this is essentially what this dispute is about, if not even part-time work in the original log, and if the other submissions fail that it would still be within that industrial dispute and so these other arguments may not need to be addressed.
PN86
In relation to the Lisa Brown case I think there are some important distinctions that need to be made and I think, your Honour, you may have already broached those and that was that the application was brought by an individual and not by an organisation whereas section 99 clearly recognises that a lone person or employee cannot bring such a claim. Similarly the decision of R v Staples determined the matter was not an industrial dispute as it lacked any implication of likely repercussions or dislocation for the industry. Well, based on my previous comments I would say that this is becoming a burgeoning problem for us within CSL. It is something we need to nip in the bud. This is another example of it and that there are possible repercussions and dislocations in the industry resulting from a continuation of these practices and as I say Ms Minnette can provide further evidence on that matter.
PN87
If in all these circumstances, your Honour, you still find that you do not have jurisdiction under section 99 or section 493 or as - we would suggest that there may be jurisdiction under section 170LW in relation to the application of the agreement in these circumstance and depending on the outcome of your deliberations on this initial issue we do have an application under section 170LW to hand up if that is agreeable to the Commission.
[1.47pm]
PN88
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Ms Cooper. Yes, Mr Whitley. I might ask, Mr Whitley, while you are deliberating, something else that you might address me on in your response. In one of the authorities that you provided me with, it was the Metal Trades Employees Association known as a High Court case, a decision of Latham J, and I think in your submission the particular paragraph that you led me to began with:
PN89
A claim of an individual employee against his employer is not in itself an industrial dispute.
PN90
I wonder if I could direct you to the preceding two sentences to that particular quotation and ask you to address me on that as well and just to read those to you, the first of those is:
PN91
In industrial arbitration the conception of parties is extended by a doctrine of representation - - -
PN92
MR WHITLEY: It will take a moment to find that.
PN93
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. I think it was in the Commonwealth Law Reports. I only have a - it is page 403. 404, I think, was the actual paragraph that you directed me to, began on the top of page 404 and began the quotation, as I said:
PN94
A claim of an individual employee -
PN95
etcetera. If you turn back the page to 403 and it is the two preceding sentences to that that I would be interested in having you address me on. Do you have the quotation?
PN96
MR WHITLEY: Yes, I have found it. The two sentences - one starts of:
PN97
In industrial arbitration - - -
PN98
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That is correct, yes, and the second of those begins:
PN99
Industrial disputes are essentially -
PN100
and goes on from there. Yes, thanks, Mr Whitley.
PN101
MR WHITLEY: I think I can continue on now, thank you.
PN102
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you.
PN103
MR WHITLEY: As to the comment about the two additional lines in that reference we would agree that the CPSU are in fact representing Ms Angelis in much the same way as any representative might represent an individual who is part of a whole. So we would be happy to include that as part of the reference as well. But the key point was the next sentence and, of course, that doesn't detract from the fact that it is really an individual issue being represented by the CPSU on the individual's behalf, not collectively, everyone in the company. I think I can also look at the - refer you to the transcript and the witness statements where it makes it very clear that it is the individual that is the issue here.
PN104
It is an issue between Ms Angelis and that section of the company. Ms Angelis' statement makes that clear, Ms Mokdessi's statement makes that clear and I think the rest of the references are just too broad to be specific enough to say it is a universal problem. The case before us today is purely about that one individual and it is certainly true that anyone can notify a dispute through a union and in this case the union is representing that individual and it is a question of substance over form. And the last point I could make is that the Commission would have jurisdiction under section 493 if this were not a personal grievance and our position, as I put, is that we believe it is a personal grievance.
PN105
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Mr Whitley.
PN106
MR WHITLEY: Thank you.
PN107
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will adjourn for I think 15 minutes so until 10 past the hour and I will provide a determination of the jurisdictional issue.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [1.55pm]
RESUMED [2.12pm]
PN108
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you. Look, I am satisfied that jurisdiction does reside in this Commission to hear this matter under section 99 of the Act or alternatively under section 493 of the Act. I will indicate to you some brief reasons in summary for coming to that view if full reasons were to be sought by the parties in accordance with the relevant section of the Act and they would be provided in due course. It has been put to me by the employer that the matter is a personal dispute rather than an industrial dispute within the meaning of the Act. As I have said, with respect I don't agree with that view.
PN109
It appears to me that the dispute contains both the group element referred to by Chief Justice Latham in the Metal Trades decision evidenced by the involvement of the CPSU and it contains, in my view, an implication of likely repercussion for the industry based upon claims by the union and other employees that the specifics of this dispute are indicative of a more general circumstance. I note on the whole the authorities relied upon by the company refer to circumstances in which applications have been made by individuals rather than by registered organisations under the Act.
PN110
So on that basis I will go forward and hear the merits of this particular application. Thank you, Ms Cooper.
PN111
MS COOPER: Your Honour, if we could just make an initial point relating to the lateness of the provision of witness statements. They were provided, to our knowledge, contrary to the directions of the Commission and accordingly we would be seeking to rely on the decision of Deputy President Williams. I have already given a copy to the respondents. That is PR916892, seeking the exercise of the Commission's discretion to exclude the evidence of CSL because of their non-compliance with the directions and what we see as the unfair advantage it has given the respondent in that they were able to examine our witness statements before they were required to provide theirs and has accordingly alluded them to our case and that is an advantage that was not allowed to the applicant who did observe directions.
PN112
If I could just go to paragraph 8 of that decision where Deputy President Williams says:
PN113
Further they are designed to put each party on notice as to the substance of the other parties' case. Failure to comply without good and sufficient reason ordinarily should not be condoned and should not be allowed to delay the determination of an application. In this case no reason at all was advanced by the respondent for its non-compliance in the circumstances. There did not appear to me to be any denial of procedural fairness to the respondent in choosing to follow the course of action that I did.
PN114
As you would be aware, your Honour, in that case Senior Deputy President Williams did not allow the person or the representative who had not followed the directions to proceed to lead their evidence, only to cross-examine. If your Honour pleases.
PN115
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thanks, Ms Cooper. Mr Whitley.
PN116
MR WHITLEY: Thank you, Deputy President. We would say that the delay in giving that would not have prejudiced the union's case one iota and we did not rely on filtering and reviewing the union's material to adjust our own. So we would object to that.
PN117
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You would object to what, Mr Whitley?
PN118
MR WHITLEY: To having our witness statement rules out as inadmissible.
PN119
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Mr Whitley, I tend to agree with Senior Deputy President Williams that failure to comply with directions without good and sufficient reason, I think his words were, ordinarily should not be condoned and ordinarily I would not condone it. What I haven't heard yet is any good and sufficient reason for the delay.
PN120
MR WHITLEY: Just bear with me for a moment.
PN121
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.
PN122
MR WHITLEY: Sorry for the delay. The authority that was relied on, as I understand it, did not comply at all with the directions. We were about an hour or so late as I think is not an issue. That hour would not have prejudiced the CPSUs position at all. To explain why that was delayed we had an e-mail interruption or at least a delay in transmission of those e-mails from within and outside the company yesterday from about lunchtime onwards. Just before lunchtime through until about 3 o'clock there was an e-mail delay and that proved to be critical in getting our thoughts and our documents and all of our text together and to fax it off to the union.
PN123
I think it was probably a good result that it was only delayed by an hour. But as I would suggest that wouldn't have prejudiced the union's case at all.
PN124
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, well, I mean, they suggest that it would, Mr Whitley, and suggestions from the bar table from one end or the other, particularly when they are directly contrary to one another, don't take us too much further which is why I asked for a particular reason which you have now provided to me, so thank you for that. Ms Cooper.
PN125
MS COOPER: I only wish to add that it was more than an hour late according to our fax. It was 1840 that the evidence was received. Also I might be a bit technologically illiterate but I don't understand how an e-mail, the failure in an e-mail system would stop a witness statement being typed on a word processing system.
PN126
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Ms Cooper. Look, in the circumstances I don't intend to explore those issues. I believe that in the circumstances of this case the witness statements are quite material to the matter that I have to determine and I intend to allow them, Ms Cooper. I take on board your comments and I am, as I have already said, in general agreement with SDP Williams as to the matter of compliance with directions. However I am of a view that to deny the opportunity to the organisation, to the company in this respect, wouldn't be according procedural fairness or natural justice in effect. So I will allow those statements. Thank you. Ms Cooper.
PN127
MS COOPER: Yes, your Honour. We will firstly call Ms Minnette but before we do Ms Mokdessi is a witness in these proceedings as well, she is also sitting at the bar table. We would request that she be absent for the giving of our member's statement.
PN128
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Could I ask you to please - thank you. Yes, the other witness that you have, Ms Cooper, that would similarly apply, would it not?
PN129
PN130
MS COOPER: Ms Minnette, if I could just hand you a copy of your witness statement made in these proceedings. I believe the Commission and the respondents have a copy. Could you look at the witness statement? Go to page 2. Is that your signature on the second page?---Yes, it is.
PN131
Is this statement a true and accurate account?---Yes, it is.
PN132
Okay. I would just like perhaps to go initially to your statement at paragraph 3 where you say:
PN133
I am aware of numerous examples where CSL has refused to show flexibility or be reasonable in arranging part-time work.
PN134
Given that this has become somewhat of an issue would you be able to provide us with specific examples?---I can provide specific examples over the number of years I have been at CSL.
PN135
How many years - sorry, I can see from your statement you have been there for 13 years so - - -?---That is correct.
PN136
Perhaps if you provide those specific examples?---When I first moved into the marketing area one of the first cases that came before me was a lady returning from maternity leave. Her name was Leslie Speak and the other person involved was Leonie Maslen. They both had young children and approached the management within the division for part-time job-share work. Leslie was coming off maternity leave. She was a sales rep, she had been in our customer service area, she had been with the company for 15 years and she was denied point blank that it was not - that the company was not able to help her. I feel at that time it was a great loss to the company. She had provided excellent service to CSL and also CSL I felt at the time lost an excellent employee in Leslie but no, nothing was done. The company - the management at the time, unfortunately they are no longer at CSL, was Mr Graham Kaufman and Mr
**** JULIE ANNE MINNETTE XN MS COOPER
John Howlett. They refused her point blank. That is one case I know. The most recent case I know is coming out of the vet packaging. It has not been brought to management because the person did not want to cause any trouble, felt intimidated. She wanted to change her hours. She had come back to work with a young baby, her first baby, and she was refused point blank by her manager in the area and he said, no, it wasn't - she wasn't able to provide that service and nothing was done any further for her and she was - she was quite distressed when she came to me but did not want me to proceed under the union representative banner. And they come to me, sometimes they just come to talk about it, they don't want to go any further because they are frightened of repercussions within their area.
PN137
Thank you, Julie. Okay, I understand also that you have currently been assisting in the mail delivery area at CSL. This is somewhat of an issue in relation to Mrs Angelis' situation. Could you tell me what you understand about the mail deliveries and their flexibility or otherwise in CSL?---From what I can understand for the short period of time I have been assisting Mr Andrew Strait with the mail, they do two runs, deliveries, into the finance division, one in the morning and one in the afternoon. Andrew is a very flexible person. There is a time-line where he could get the mail to the finance earlier in the afternoon which may assist the finance department in a whole because the mail coming in in the afternoon is a lot of internal mail and if that could get up there earlier, which I don't know why it hasn't been looked at earlier, but it could assist the finance department and it could also be helpful within Angela's case.
PN138
You are not aware or are you aware of any restrictions or other situations in that area that might prevent such flexibility?---Not to my knowledge. I don't know if the people in finance have spoken to Andrew or looked further to assist the situation at hand at the moment. I don't know if they have looked any further to be able to help with the mail.
PN139
But from your opinion there is no - - -?---There is no reason why we can't be - find that flexibility.
**** JULIE ANNE MINNETTE XN MS COOPER
PN140
Is it always delivered exactly at 3 o'clock?---No, it is not. Sometimes, and in recent times the reason I have been helping is because we have been without a staff member now for nearly six months. That area has been short a person for six months and I have been assisting where possible to help the person in charge.
PN141
Perhaps now I could take you to paragraph 4 of your statement. You say there:
PN142
I have spoken with employees in Angela Angelis' immediate work area and they have told me the department can accommodate Angela's request to leave work at three.
PN143
Who are those employees to whom you have spoken?---I spoke to Angela and Elissa Awty as early as 11 o'clock this morning.
PN144
Sorry, perhaps - what were the names again of the people who - - -?---Oh, Alicja and I think her - Elissa, I think her christian name is pronounced.
PN145
Perhaps if it is possible I could hand up a copy of Ms Mokdessi's statement to the witness and take her to paragraph 27 of that statement. I believe the respondents and the Commission have a copy of Ms Mokdessi's statement. Paragraph 27, yes, going to the last dot points and the sentence beginning:
PN146
After this meeting -
PN147
paragraph 27?---Mm.
PN148
Now Ms Mokdessi has stated that she spoke to two members of the team, a Ms Wall and a Ms Jajesnica. Are they the two women to whom you have spoken?---I spoke to Ms Jajesnica, Alicja is her christian name, and I also spoke to Ms Awty.
**** JULIE ANNE MINNETTE XN MS COOPER
PN149
In paragraph 28. So is it correct then that - well, Ms Mokdessi is saying in this statement that she has asked two members of the team, to whom you have also spoken, who have confirmed to her that they would not be able to accommodate Ms Angelis' hours and yet you have been told something different?---I have been told yesterday and today at 11 am this morning, after receiving a copy of this faxed to me by Mr Ward, I went up and they said that is not what they said, that is not what they interpreted. That Ms Jajesnica said 3 o'clock would be fine and they could accommodate it and Ms Awty said, she said to me because I said I was coming in here today, that I wanted to make sure that I presented the honest opinion of the staff in the area, she said to me that she said to have that third team member the timeframe did not worry her. She did not give me a specific time but Ms Jajesnica did. She said 3 o'clock, they would be able to accommodate it. That is what she said to me at 11 am this morning.
PN150
Okay. Thank you, Ms Minnette, that is all I have at the moment.
PN151
PN152
MR WHITLEY: Hi, Julie, how are you?---Hi, Grant, how are you?
PN153
I have got a couple of questions for you. You have been a delegate for the CPSU for a long time?---Ten years, Grant.
PN154
Would it be fair to say that you tend to get just the disputes, the grievances that people have, the complaints they have?---No, sometimes I get the good cases occasionally and where CSL has helped people out and I do get the good side of things but I do get a lot of grievances and a lot of the problem-side of people coming to me and sometimes I am just a hearing board for people.
**** JULIE ANNE MINNETTE XXN MR WHITLEY
PN155
Yes. I think it is a bit of the meat in the sandwich stuff, would you agree with that? You tend to get an overwhelming imbalance in - you don't see it 50/50, do you?---I try to - I try when people need a sounding board not to come to the company. Where I think that it is something that they just want to have a big of a groan or a moan I don't take it any further, I just am - I try to be a good listener to people at times.
PN156
Would you say that CSL is a mean and nasty organisation or would you think it is a more balanced organisation than that?---In recent times I have always thought, even this issue today, should not be here. That we would have addressed it, you and I, outside of these rooms and a fair and a win/win situation would have occurred and I always, in previous years, have had that rapport with the company and it has always - up until maybe the last two years I always thought CSL was a balanced, a fair, good employee[sic].
PN157
You mentioned, I think, an employee, Leslie Speak, who was in customer service that had a flat refusal?---She was in customer service and a sales rep for the company.
PN158
That is perhaps a bit outside my experience but can you tell me what year that would have been in a rough - - -?---It goes back, Grant, when I first went up into the marketing area Leslie became pregnant. So going back in years it was one of the first instances I had come in contact where the company just flatly refused. Graham Kaufman, as I said, was the general manager then and John Howlett was the manager in the division. They would not look at giving her any assistance after coming back with a baby, but for me I felt the worst thing was, if you know anything about Leslie - - -
PN159
That wasn't my question but if it was Graham Kaufman then that puts it what, five years or further back?---Five years, five years ago, but that was the first instance that I had come in contact with it.
**** JULIE ANNE MINNETTE XXN MR WHITLEY
PN160
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ms Minnette, can I just interrupt for a moment. Could I - I know this is difficult because you are being asked questions from down there and you need to answer them up here if you can. That puts you in a bit of a difficult circumstance but I am having a little bit of trouble hearing you on occasions so perhaps you could address your answers to the bench?---I am sorry.
PN161
MR WHITLEY: And you mentioned Leone Maslen and then I wasn't quite sure whether your comments were related to her or another employee?---It was between Leslie and Leonie that a job-share situation was - they wanted to approach the manager with Leslie coming back. Leonie at that time was on - was a part-time employee.
PN162
So that was also five years or thereabouts back in time?---That was something that happened five years ago. It was my first instance that people had come to me and it didn't - the management flatly refused to give Leslie a part - any form of part-time or job-share work.
PN163
So that was under a different management group to what we are talking about here today. I just wanted to clarify that. You know a fair bit about the operational areas of the company from your perspective dealing as a delegate?---Yes, I do.
PN164
Would you accept that there are some areas of the company where part-time employment is just not practical? That there is a legitimate reason for the management to refuse point blank, I think was a phrase you used?---Point blank. From my perspective I do think there is always, when a - this is speaking solely about maternity leave when a mother is coming back to work that something can be put out there to assist her or she could be moved to other areas. And CSL is so big now, so big it doesn't have to be on the Parkville site, it could be on the Broadmeadows site. I do believe the company has that flexibility, Grant, to be more flexible.
**** JULIE ANNE MINNETTE XXN MR WHITLEY
PN165
I want to be a little more focussed with the answers if I can but that sounded like a little bit of a sermon?---Sorry.
PN166
I really want to focus the questions on the department, not the company completely, and throw it open to ancient history and all of that sort of stuff, but can you imagine that there are areas where part-time employment just is not practical? That the work says this is as far as we might go or that it can't be done at all, it has to be full-time?---I am trying to think of all the areas of CSL - production, packaging, R and D, flu production, marketing.
PN167
There would be one or two, wouldn't there?---Marketing, but I - what I do know that - I have to say no to your answer because in areas sometimes where I thought it mightn't have happened it has happened.
PN168
You mentioned about mail deliveries, am and pm, and you spoke to Andrew, the OIC of registry who looks after that. Would you be aware that the mail deliveries isn't really such a huge driver of the workload in that group? There seems to be a bit of focus on that but the mail is one part of that work?---There seems to be a bit of focus on the mail.
PN169
So would it - you know, that 3 o'clock delivery is really an issue that Andrew and finance have sorted out amongst themselves as being the most practical? Would you think that that is the way it was done?---Ask me that again?
PN170
That the time slot of around about 3 o'clock - I know it happens shortly before sometimes, shortly after the 3 o'clock, it is not right on 3 o'clock - but that 3 o'clock delivery into finance would you accept that that was a time that was sorted out between basically the operational requirement, when the mail comes in and when registry can deliver it and in the route that registry take around the plant that would suit finance's requirements? It suits the operational requirements of the business? To move it one way or another isn't significant firstly in workload terms and it fits with the broader operational requirements of the business?---In your, the statement that I have read from the company the
**** JULIE ANNE MINNETTE XXN MR WHITLEY
mail has been, sort of, I thought an issue, not so much - I am sure a million other things come in to finance, especially phone calls which is a major I would imagine in accounts payable and a major issue with people, but in your - going back on what I have read of this statement that mail, I think more flexibility could apply there. That you have indicated or the other person's statement indicated that it was an issue, that the mail come in at 3, where I feel the mail could come in - or I know for a fact that it could come in earlier.
PN171
It is certainly one of the issues but are you in a position to be able to make a judgment on whether it is the main issue or is it just one of a number? You mentioned phone calls?---Yes, phone calls. I couldn't make a judgment on whether it was the main issue, Grant, no.
PN172
Why is that? Is it because of the role you have rather than in finance?---Well, I am not - I don't work in finance.
PN173
All right. Just bear with me a moment?---Okay.
PN174
You also mentioned a third person who worked in packaging. Can you give us some more details - my feeling at the moment is that that is perhaps irrelevant?---This is fairly recent this one. This lady has approached me in recent times. Has, as I said, was refused point blank and did not want to go any further with me representing her or going to her management. I don't know if you class that as being irrelevant because at the time she came to me she was - she needed some support, a new mother, a new bub, and she didn't feel that she could go to her manager in the area. This is within - this happened three months ago, this timeframe. As I said it was in vet packaging or animal health packaging and she come up to see me and I don't think - I don't know if it is right to mention her name because she did not want me to take it any further.
PN175
I won't press you on that, unless anyone else wants to press her. I will take you to paragraph 3 of your statement, Julie, at the second sentence, I think it is. It starts off:
**** JULIE ANNE MINNETTE XXN MR WHITLEY
PN176
On other occasions people are given part-time work.
PN177
It goes on to say:
PN178
People have been denied suitable part-time work because of the attitude of one or two managers and not because of any real business needs.
PN179
?---I found that the case in the bio-science instant where the managers did not even look at how the people involved could have been an attribute to the company. As I said Leslie at the time had to leave the company because she could not get assistance with part-time work or job-share where the other person was quite willing, she was competent, and I found that they did not look at the - - -
PN180
Sorry, Julie - sorry, could I interrupt?---Well, for me - you say the real business needs. The company didn't look at the individuals.
PN181
Can you address the real business needs because that is really central to your statement? In your role as marketing assistant are you able to straddle the real business needs and make such a broad statement as that?---When I say the real business needs here I am referring to the individuals involved, that they didn't look at the individuals.
PN182
So that is the personal needs of the individuals?---The - yes, that the managers - - -
PN183
The way I took that was the real business needs of the company rather than the personal needs of the individual?---I feel the company, when they let people go of 15 years standing who are competent, I think it affects their side of the coin too, Grant.
**** JULIE ANNE MINNETTE XXN MR WHITLEY
PN184
I have no more questions.
PN185
PN186
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ms Cooper, I am not sure that you tendered the witness statement. I am assuming you are seeking to do that formally? Did you actually - - -
PN187
MS COOPER: I was sure it was faxed through.
PN188
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, you did provide it but you have not sought to formally tender it in these proceedings and I am assuming that that would be something you would wish to do.
PN189
MS COOPER: Sorry, your Honour.
PN190
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I have a copy of it so there is no need to provide me with another copy of it.
PN191
MS COOPER: Yes, we do have the original here, your Honour, I am sorry.
PN192
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But I was just wondering whether you - if you wish to formally tender it I will mark it accordingly.
PN193
MS COOPER: Yes.
PN194
MR WARD: If you just spare me a few seconds and I will locate it.
PN195
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But as I say - - -
PN196
PN197
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, just before you go on, Ms Cooper, you have another witness to be called presumably?
PN198
MS COOPER: Yes, one more witness.
PN199
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am just conscious of the time and it would appear to me that we are unlikely to finish this matter this afternoon, both in terms of hearing witness evidence and submissions. I wondered what the circumstances - I have time available on Monday to be able to continue this hearing but as I am, I think it was previously advised Ms Angelis is due to recommence work on Monday, is that not correct?
PN200
MS COOPER: That is correct, yes.
PN201
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Whitley, you might advise me what would be the circumstances of that return to work on Monday?
PN202
MR WHITLEY: We would suggest the written advice that I think was dated 16 May would be appropriate if there was some delay in finalising this matter but we could perhaps - let me add to that, that that letter would be an interim position until the Commission brings a ruling down and finalises it all but perhaps we could finish today and file written submissions to wrap it up if that would facilitate your position.
PN203
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I mean, that is an option that is available to me, Mr Whitley. I think given the circumstances it might be better if we continue in the way we are subject to parties' availability on Monday. I am in a fortunate position of having had another matter that has now fallen off which has given me some time available so we can continue with it. I was more concerned that should the applicant be in a position on Monday with respect to her own personal circumstances of being unable to comply with company requirements then I was wondering what the company' position would be while this matter is being heard and determined.
PN204
MR WHITLEY: Well, I - - -
PN205
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So if - what I am saying is if Ms Angelis is only able to work to a particular hour on Monday, that hour being other than the one proposed by the company?
PN206
MR WHITLEY: There has been a couple of views we have put in conference about what the contract of employment might say but - and whichever contract of employment, whether it is full-time or part-time, it has a finish time of 4.40 on it. I think - - -
PN207
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I didn't really want to get into the merits of what we are arguing about. I am really talking about a no-prejudice circumstance to pertain while we are actually hearing and determining the matter. I mean we could be faced with a circumstance where Ms Angelis says, well, I have got to return on Monday and I can't comply with the requirements of the company and I just wanted to see if we could come up with some without prejudice circumstance to cover that while this matter is heard and determined.
PN208
MR WHITLEY: Well, the earliest we could let her go would be 4 o'clock and our witness statement from ms Mokdessi would go into full explanation of why that would not be an early time permission.
PN209
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. So you couldn't accommodate an earlier time even for the sake of the hearing and determination of this matter, Mr Whitley?
PN210
MR WHITLEY: I couldn't - off the top I would say, no, we couldn't because we have got the - - -
PN211
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So what action would you intend to take if Ms Angelis doesn't comply with that requirement?
PN212
MR WHITLEY: Well, perhaps there is some short-term childcare arrangements as distinct from long-term childcare arrangements that Ms Angelis might be able to entertain.
PN213
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I am more - there may well be but I suppose my concern at this particular point in time is that the company may take a view, while this matter is being heard and determined, that Ms Angelis is failing to comply with the terms of her contract and may take some action in respect of that up to and potentially including termination of employment. So it seems to me to be something that we need to resolve before we take this matter any further. The matter at the moment is being heard and determined and I am simply seeking a way, on a without prejudice basis to either side, to have some circumstance prevail in the period while we are hearing the matter and making the determination.
PN214
MR WHITLEY: I would have to take advice from one of the witnesses who is not here and perhaps even people back at CSL who I could contact quite readily but my feeling is that without knowing how big the piece of string is I would be unable to make a commitment right here and now. If I knew that it was only a short period of time then perhaps we could look at alternate arrangements but I would want to consult with the operational people because we have got major issues in workload right now we need to deal with.
PN215
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Look, Mr - from my point of view, Mr Whitley, I don't intend that the determination of this matter should take very long at all once I have heard all of the evidence and the submissions of the parties. So I would expect you would have a determination - well, we will continue to hear evidence on Monday. I would expect you would have a determination by the end of next week.
PN216
MR WHITLEY: The only thing that comes straight to mind is to consider an extension of leave entitlements but I don't know what the entitlements are, I don't know what the impact on the company would be other than the anticipation was for other arrangements that are put in place that Angela would be starting on Monday.
PN217
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Perhaps you would like to have an adjournment for a few moments so that you can discuss it amongst yourself. I am talking here, Mr Whitley, about a without prejudice circumstance for a very limited timeframe if there is a problem in terms of Ms Angelis being able to meet the company's requirements in the interim, that is all I am talking about. I am not talking about something that the company - is being imposed upon the company. I am not talking about something that the company will have to treat as some sort of precedent. I am simply talking about a circumstance whereby this Commission is hearing and determining a matter and needs to ensure, as far as possible, that in taking the time to do that we are not prejudicing the case of either party.
PN218
MR WHITLEY: I understand that and there is a couple of options. If you can bear with me I will see if I can get - - -
PN219
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, well, what if I adjourn until 3 pm and that will give you an opportunity to explore those options and in fact perhaps explore the options between the parties and I will reconvene at 3 pm.
PN220
MR WHITLEY: That is fine.
PN221
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [2.50pm]
RESUMED [3.06pm]
PN222
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Whitley.
PN223
MR WHITLEY: I will roll on where we were before the adjournment. We have had discussions between the parties and back at home base at CSL. I understand Mrs Angelis would have difficulty arranging childcare at such short notice. I put two propositions back to the management at CSL. One would be to grant some form of leave and therefore do without Angela's services for the week and they were horrified at that because two things have happened. One of the people in accounts payable is finishing up tonight - that was a resignation that was programmed in a month or so ago. We have put in a temporary to replace that person because it is month end and that was a critical thing to bring things up to date at month end. We have also recalled the supervisor of the team, the team leader, from a week's leave to help us out for month end as well.
PN224
So their issue is really we would rather have her for part-time hours rather than not at all for this coming week, this without prejudice basis. So wrapping up the difficulties that one side would have and the difficulties that the other side would have I would suggest without prejudice and to prove that we have good faith in point here that we would be prepared to go from 8.30 to 3 o'clock for this week only, for this coming week, this future week.
PN225
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thanks, Mr Whitley. Thank you. Are we still waiting on Ms Cooper, are we?
PN226
MR WARD: We are. She will be here shortly. I think it was a misunderstanding. Sorry. I don't think it is worthwhile adjourning. I think if we just wait for a minute or two.
PN227
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thanks, Mr Ward. Are you ready to proceed at this stage, Ms Cooper?
PN228
MR WARD: I would just like to thank the company for that offer without prejudice and I would like to inform the Commission that Angela is able to work from 8.30 to 3 pm Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday and as a gesture of goodwill and I hope, you know, this - on a without prejudice basis.
PN229
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, well, I think we have done the without prejudice to death.
PN230
MR WARD: Yes, okay. Thanks.
PN231
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It is without prejudice to anybody, that was the basis upon which it was heard in the first instance and it was really to allow this matter to be heard and determined so, thank you, and we will proceed, Ms Cooper.
PN232
PN233
MS COOPER: Yes, Angela, could I hand you a copy of your statement, please, and also hand a copy to your Honour for marking. Angela, would you go to page 3 of your statement. Is that your signature - - -?---Yes.
PN234
- - - down the bottom of the page. In all other respects is this witness statement a true and accurate account of these matters?---Yes.
PN235
Okay. If we could just start by asking you a bit about your background and work experience, in particular the work you were doing before you went on maternity leave this time?
PN236
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, Ms Cooper, I am assuming you wish to tender this document as well formally?
PN237
PN238
MS COOPER: Okay?---I have been with the company for 14 years of which 12 years have been consistent serving. I have been employed in the accounts payable section and prior to my departure for maternity leave I was solely handling all the company's foreign accounts, basically doing all their reconciliations, processing their payments, the data entry, filing and handling all their queries, the company's - all the foreign vendors. In that position that enabled me to actually handle the job from beginning to the end of the week, I had a week to process all the incoming overseas accounts that were coming through. I had minimal - there were a minimal amount of phone calls, minimal dealings due to the fact that there were time differences and the cost factor involved with dialling overseas numbers. So most of my dealings were either done by fax or e-mail. Okay, and - - -
**** ANGELA ANGELIS XN MS COOPER
PN239
And that was the job you were doing just before you proceeded on maternity leave?---That is correct.
PN240
Okay. Could I just hand to you now a copy of the job description that you have been given on your return from long service leave on 3 June. That is dated 9 May. I believe a copy was faxed through to the Commission and also to the respondents with our documents yesterday. If there is not a copy I should have some additional copies here. It is headed Angela Angelis meeting, Thursday, 9 May 2002.
PN241
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN242
MS COOPER: Okay. Angela, could you tell me, having had a look at this position, does that fit in with the work that you have done in the past? Do you feel that you could fulfil the duties in this role?---Yes, I do believe I would be able to fulfil all the duties that are required of me in this job description. My only concern is that this was actually made up for my prior hours that I was actually doing which were 24.5 hours. Now being a support role I gather that there wouldn't be allocated amounts of work there as such. I would probably just be helping out with all these particular different and varied tasks.
PN243
I notice down - if you just go down to the heading, All Days, under Administration Support, there is listed mail distribution. In the scale of things what do you understand as to how big a part of your job mail distribution will be?---It would only probably be 5 per cent or 2 per cent of the whole job.
PN244
And underneath there is, Current Situation. What do you understand about the person who is currently filling that role and what their duties are?---My understanding of the contract member of staff who is only doing two days of duty is doing solely data entry and none of the other above tasks that have been proposed.
**** ANGELA ANGELIS XN MS COOPER
PN245
So not doing mail distribution and not taking customer queries?---No, that is my understanding.
PN246
So these duties are significantly different to the duties that the current person whose position you will be replacing is undertaking?---That is right.
PN247
Do you think if you were just doing data entry that would be satisfactory for you?---Given that I haven't been in that environment for the last 18 months I can't really say what the volume is all about or where the volume is at at the moment so I don't know whether I could do just that.
PN248
Okay. Perhaps you could tell us then a bit about the negotiations you have had with CSL in relation to your return to work, in particular what sort of offers you might have made and flexibilities you might have been able to afford the company?---On my returning to work I initially requested 8.30 to 2.30. That was going to be ample time to get to my daughter to collect her from school. We then spoke again with my immediate superiors and that wasn't going to be practical. So then I offered to take some work home and again that wasn't practical for CSL due to confidentiality reasons. We then managed to come to an agreement of - we didn't actually agree, it was actually offered to me that I work 9 to 4 but that still - that, at that stage, did not help my situation because I really needed to be able to pick up my daughter from school as there were no after school and before school facilities at the school or in the immediate area, after a few investigations. So I then contacted Ms Leila and suggested what about if I do 8 o'clock to 3 o'clock or 7.30 to 3 o'clock. That way that would enable me to get in time for what I needed to do and her concern was that I really - it was imperative that I was there between the hours of 3 to 4 due to the influx of mail. My understanding is, having had 12 years of experience at CSL, is that the actual delivery of mail - the actual mail is available at 2.30 pm in the afternoon. Now between 2.30 and 3 I believe I would be able to perform that given task of distributing the mail among the other team members and I don't know if that is really, yes, a proper argument there because I believe I could, yes, undertake that task at that given time.
**** ANGELA ANGELIS XN MS COOPER
PN249
Could I also ask you then, in relation to care for your child, the reason you need to leave at 3 is to collect your child from school?---That is right.
PN250
What arrangements have you made to get your child to school in the mornings? How would that fit in?---Well, my husband has actually undertaken the role of dropping off my son who is one and my daughter off at school in the mornings, so he is taking care of that part of the day, but it is just the afternoon that is actually critical to us.
PN251
Your husband is not able to collect the children, your eldest child, after school?---No, due to work requirements he cannot do that.
PN252
And you have undertaken investigations you mentioned into the availability of outside care or of after school care. Are you satisfied that you have exhausted all those avenues?---Yes, I am.
PN253
Okay. If I could just take you to the statement of Leila Mokdessi. If I could just hand a copy to you. Particularly to paragraph 26 of Ms Mokdessi's statement.
PN254
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ms Cooper, just again, the document which is headed, Meeting, Thursday, 9 May 2002, was that a document you sought to tender?
PN255
**** ANGELA ANGELIS XN MS COOPER
PN256
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I shouldn't need to prompt you any more, should I, Ms Cooper?
PN257
MS COOPER: No. I am just wondering about this witness statement of Leila Mokdessi. Do you want me to enter that now or - - -
PN258
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, that will be tendered in the fullness of time presumably.
PN259
MS COOPER: No, they will enter that, yes.
PN260
Yes, paragraph 26, on page 6. In the statement Ms Mokdessi says, at line 3 of paragraph 26:
PN261
Ms Angelis agreed the responsibilities required of her in this role could not be fulfilled if she worked according to that schedule.
PN262
Could you explain the context of that discussion and if that in fact actually represents your position?
PN263
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am sorry, could you just give me the reference to that again, please, Ms Cooper?
PN264
MS COOPER: Sorry, it is paragraph 26, page 6, of Ms Mokdessi's statement, third line.
**** ANGELA ANGELIS XN MS COOPER
PN265
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you?---That discussion followed after I was handed the job description which was for the proposed hours of 24.5 hours. I was handed this description and asked if I thought it was feasible for me to do - perform these tasks in the hours that I was actually proposing which were 19.5 hours and I said that I had actually concerns that I probably wouldn't be able to undertake all tasks in the given timeframe. But as I said if this is just mainly a support role then perhaps there is no responsibilities as such so I can only do what I can possibly do on the hours I am proposing.
PN266
MS COOPER: So you have reconsidered your response in that context? You now do think you could do those duties within the 19 hours that you need, that you have requested?---Not all the - like I said, not all the tasks are feasible. It is - I don't believe I would be able to do all those tasks in the 19.5 hours proposed which I am proposing.
PN267
Okay. A little further down in that paragraph, the second last sentence, during the course of the meeting Ms Mokdessi claims you asked whether the company would offer you a redundancy package. Is that correct?---I actually made that - I actually asked that question on our first meeting after resuming from maternity leave when I was given a different job description. My role had now changed since I had been on maternity leave. Prior to maternity leave I was just solely handling all the company's overseas accounts and since - my proposed role when I was coming back had actually changed and that was why I asked that question, whether my previous role had actually been made redundant.
PN268
If you could go to paragraph 34 of this statement. Ms Mokdessi makes a comment there:
PN269
If Ms Angelis were allowed to work the hours she wished as a member of the accounts payable team I believe this would have a significant adverse effect on the team's productivity, efficiency and morale.
**** ANGELA ANGELIS XN MS COOPER
PN270
Given that the role you are replacing is a data entry position of fewer hours than are currently undertaking do you have any response to that comment or anything you wish to say?---Well, I believe that the department would be a lot better off given that I am actually undertaking a lot of other varied tasks and I am actually - they are actually getting 3.5 man hours extra a week of my services.
PN271
Okay. I have nothing further, thank you.
PN272
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, could you just explain that to me, please, Ms Angelis? They are actually getting 3.5 hours extra relative to what?---Relative to the current contract person who is there for 16 hours a week.
PN273
I see, yes?---I am actually offering 19.5 hours.
PN274
Yes, thank you. Can you also tell me, if you don't mind, Ms Angelis, where the 24.5 hours originated?---Yes. They were my hours prior to going off on maternity leave. I was doing three days, 8 till 4.40.
PN275
PN276
MR WHITLEY: Thank you. Hi, Angela?---Hi.
PN277
You started off by talking about your previous role being focussed on foreign dealings I think was the phrase you used. Are you aware of the changes that have occurred to CSLs profile in the last couple of years?---Yes.
**** ANGELA ANGELIS XXN MR WHITLEY
PN278
The thrust of that being mainly international?---That is correct, yes.
PN279
So there is a much bigger foreign employee profile than there was even 18 months ago?---Mm.
PN280
We have something like four and a half thousand employees overseas. The job description of 9 May that you referred to and had discussions with is pretty obviously not a data entry job?---No, that is right.
PN281
It is not purely data entry, it is a team member within a team of accounts payable people. Now I don't know whether you were talking cross purposes or whether I misinterpreted what you said but you were approaching that discussion, as I understand it from what you said, saying you wanted to work about 19 hours a week and this is really not talking about hours at all, it is just talking about a chunk of work, a parcel of work as distinct from the number of hours it could be done in and your reaction to that was that couldn't really be done in 19 hours or - - -?---Yes.
PN282
Was that pretty much what you said?---Yes, that was - because on that day I was actually handed this job description and I was asked, do you think you would be able to complete all these tasks in the hours that you are proposing and my initial reaction was, no, because initially I was told that this - because this is made up for the hours that you were doing before you actually went on maternity leave.
PN283
So the anticipation of the company was that you were going to work about 24 hours or 24-1/2 hours rather than 19 hours or so?---That is right.
PN284
And that was pretty much the way that job description was formulated, with that in mind, wasn't it?---Yes, yes.
**** ANGELA ANGELIS XXN MR WHITLEY
PN285
It talks about roles Monday, Tuesday, Friday, all days, and I see down the bottom there is almost a minor point, it has got mail distribution. Would it be fair to say that given it doesn't have a particular significance on that, that is a reflection of an insignificant role that the mail - where a lot of the discussion previously has been that the whole world is ruled by this mail delivery at 3 o'clock? You mentioned earlier it only takes 2 per cent or 5 per cent of your work to knock off the mail at that time. So that is consistent with this being a minor point, I take it?---Yes.
PN286
In the duties.
PN287
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Can I ask you, Ms Angelis, because it seems to me even from the previous hearing that it was put to you as a major point, is that correct, or - - -?---That is right. This was the reason why it was so imperative that I was there between the hours of 3 and 4 because the mail was delivered at 3 and I needed to actually perform that task.
PN288
Yes, thank you.
PN289
MR WHITLEY: So to come back to the broad-based role here and the reference I think you made earlier about the data entry role and you replacing a data entry role?---Yes.
PN290
It is pretty clear from this job description and the discussions you have had that it isn't replacing the part-time, the temporary, person who is there on two days a week doing pure data entry, is it?
PN291
It wouldn't be accurate to say that you were replacing the data entry person?---Well, that person was actually replacing my position as such when I was on maternity leave. That was my understanding.
[3.30pm]
**** ANGELA ANGELIS XXN MR WHITLEY
PN292
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Could I ask you, Ms Angelis, is the job description that is outlined there an agreed job description between yourself and the company?---I have never actually given any input on that. It was just something I had to - I haven't really accepted it either, I guess. It was just something that we were going to work out after we had worked out the hours issue.
PN293
And can I also ask you, does it differ substantially from the circumstance that you described before that pertained prior to you going on maternity leave?---Yes. The actual job role, yes.
PN294
Thank you.
PN295
MR WHITLEY: If I can turn now to your attempts to secure childcare. You said in paragraph 6 at the point you were looking to come back from maternity leave you were unable to arrange childcare and then later in paragraph 8, the third last sentence, you say:
PN296
I explored alternative care arrangements suggested by CSL.
PN297
So that would have been the childcare arrangements attached to the after school care programs?---That is right.
PN298
Can I ask you, how many of those schools you contacted or did you ring that Hotline or - - -?---I actually called the Hotline and I was given about four telephone numbers which were in the immediate area. There were no formal actual places that offered after school care. There were no other schools in the area that have after school care arrangements. All the childcare centres that are in the area don't actually offer those particular services.
PN299
Did you contact the schools themselves or are these private organisations?---The private organisations.
**** ANGELA ANGELIS XXN MR WHITLEY
PN300
Do you recall what they were? Who those organisations were?---Yes. It would have been Greenvale Kinder Haven. There was a number there from Roxburgh Park. A number there that had all the different services that were available in the Roxburgh Park area and I was also given a number for the council where there were individual parties.
PN301
Okay. So which child was this inquiry for?---This is for - this was for Stephanie.
PN302
The school-age child Stephanie?---The school-age child, yes.
PN303
I rang that Hotline on 27 May and there are in fact six schools and organisations in the Greenvale area according to that Department of Family Community Services Child Access Hotline that I gave you. So there is probably more options than you said if you said there was only four and some of those aren't on this list, I might add. So there is probably a lot more options that you haven't yet explored so I would suggest you haven't - - -
PN304
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that a question, Mr Whitley, or is that a statement?
PN305
MR WHITLEY: My statement is I would suggest you haven't exhausted all the options available to you, would you agree with that? I can give you those numbers, of course. For example, the contact points I have here are Craigieburn Primary School, In our Lady's Care, Westmeadows Primary After School Care, Good Samaritan Centre, Wilmot(?) Park Primary and Roxburgh Park Primary all have after school care programs?---Okay, so do they actually collect the children from school and take them to that - - -
PN306
They are contacts you can make approaches to to find that out?---They are not in my immediate area though.
**** ANGELA ANGELIS XXN MR WHITLEY
PN307
There would be others perhaps on the way from where you are living to where CSL operates from. Have you explored any of those?---So are you proposing again that I should have pulled my daughter out of that school that I have got her in or - - -
PN308
I am not proposing anything. I am asking you if you have exhausted options for exploring after school care?---I believe I have exhausted the formal options that were available in that immediate area.
PN309
The four, is that - - -?---Formal.
PN310
Formal?---Yes.
PN311
We will move on to a statement you made in your witness statement, paragraph 16. Could you read that out for me, please?---
PN312
I sincerely believe that CSL is able to manage the team's work if I left at 3 pm to pick up my child from school.
PN313
Are you genuinely able to make that statement?---Yes.
PN314
On what basis would you be able to make that statement?---Given that I have had 12 years working experience in the area and know how the - the ins and outs of the area, the work flow.
PN315
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am sorry, with respect, Mr Whitley, it is a sincere belief. I think that is all this statement goes to, does it not?
PN316
MR WHITLEY: I am trying to explore that by indicating that if Ms Angelis has been away for 15 months or so there has been radical changes to the company's operations - - -
**** ANGELA ANGELIS XXN MR WHITLEY
PN317
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I am sure that may be the case but I think Ms Angelis is probably entitled to a sincere belief in respect of many matters that she might not have contemporary knowledge of.
PN318
MR WHITLEY: But a sincere belief, I would say, is irrelevant - it is not something you can rely on as evidence. It is a - - -
PN319
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, well, perhaps you should frame a question in that manner.
PN320
MR WHITLEY: I might move on.
PN321
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.
PN322
MR WHITLEY: The next part, question 17 or point 17, you say that:
PN323
I believe my job may be threatened with termination as CSL have been unable to tell me what will happen if I leave work regularly at 3 pm.
PN324
What would you do if you had no option but to attend beyond 3 pm?---I don't actually have that option to attend beyond 3 pm and that is - - -
PN325
What would you do if you had no choice but to work beyond to say 4 pm or 4.40 pm? If you had no choice?---Well, I cannot do that. I have got a child that would be stranded at school. I have got to leave.
PN326
But what would you do, what would you do? If you are at work - - -
**** ANGELA ANGELIS XXN MR WHITLEY
PN327
MS COOPER: She has already answered that question.
PN328
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I think she just did, Mr Whitley, with respect.
PN329
MR WHITLEY: Is that about a threat to your employment, is that what you are saying?---Yes.
PN330
Do you expect someone to threaten your employment if you were to do that?---Well, I haven't - I have basically been given an ultimatum, where it is either 4 o'clock - I haven't been given any other form of direction, you know. It is either 4 o'clock or nothing, that is all I have been offered.
PN331
So was there anyone specific at CSL who threatened to terminate your employment?---No one specifically but there are rules and regulations. I need to abide by my contract hours, don't I?
PN332
Thank you. That is speculation then? No one has in fact issued a threat, that is what I was trying to establish.
PN333
MS COOPER: Your Honour - - -?---But what situation would I be in if I had to leave at 3 and I departed the premises. I would be terminated, wouldn't I?
PN334
MR WHITLEY: Well, I was just trying to establish whether or not someone had threatened - - -?---Well, that would be a case of abandoning my work, wouldn't it?
PN335
Okay, thank you.
**** ANGELA ANGELIS XXN MR WHITLEY
PN336
MS COOPER: Could I just ask one further question, your Honour, in re-direction?
PN337
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, on the basis that Mr Whitley will have an opportunity to cross-examine on that question, Ms Cooper, if you wish to do that?
PN338
PN339
MS COOPER: The 19-1/2 hours that you were able to work, was that discussed - you had a meeting in January as well as a meeting in relation to your initial return to work date which was February. Did you make it clear to the company at that meeting as to the hours of work that you would only be able to perform?---I actually made an attempt to discuss my hours but apparently it was just too early in the piece to actually speak about hours, days and we could talk about that at a later stage when my resumption, closer to my resumption.
PN340
So why did you not return to work in February 2002 and take long service leave?---Sorry, can you repeat that?
PN341
Why then did you not resume work on your original date in February 2002 and delay your return until June 2002? Why did you take the additional leave?---I took the additional long service leave because I couldn't make childcare arrangements at that point in time for my youngest son.
PN342
Okay, thank you.
**** ANGELA ANGELIS RXN MS COOPER
PN343
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Whitley, did you wish to cross-examine on any of those points?
PN344
MR WHITLEY: I will leave it at that.
PN345
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think there is a point that is highly relevant to me to hear, Ms Angelis, and I will give both parties an opportunity if they wish to take it further once I have asked the question. Am I to understand you correctly in that if you are required to comply with hours other than 3 pm or later than 3 pm that you cannot do that under any circumstances? Is that what you are putting to this Commission?---That is correct.
PN346
PN347
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now I am conscious of the time and I know there is a witness, at least one witness to be called by the employer. I am wondering whether it may not be more opportune to call that witness on Monday although it might produce some dislocation, might it, to the company if that is the case?
PN348
MR WHITLEY: As your Honour pleases but Ms Mokdessi is scheduled to be elsewhere on Monday and won't be available as I understand.
PN349
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay, well, that being the case I think we should hear that evidence now.
PN350
PN351
MR WHITLEY: Hi, Leila, Ms Mokdessi - I am not used to calling you that, my apologies. Do you have a prepared statement for these proceedings?---I do.
PN352
Do you have that statement in front of you?---I don't. I have actually got some files notes on mine. There is some amendments or some typos.
PN353
I was going to ask you whether the statement is true and correct and we can go through them and make amendments before it is handed up as a document?---Yes. There is just two points. One is on point 21 where it refers to annual leave, it is actually maternity leave, and then also on point or item 27, in the body of the text and also in the bullet points there it talks about three team members, there are actually four team members and a team leader. Three full-time - - -
PN354
Which line is that, sorry?---In item 27.
PN355
Yes?---Yes. It is in bullet point 1, bullet point 2 and bullet point 3. It should read four team members. There are three full-time team members and a part-time team member.
PN356
So that reads:
PN357
It would be essential for the fourth member of the team - - -
PN358
?---Yes, and in the body of item 27 we can see in the third last sentence or, sorry, third last line it refers to the fourth member.
PN359
Yes. And in the second dot point "that a third" is replaced by "a fourth", is that correct?---That is correct.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XN MR WHITLEY
PN360
And in the last dot point?---Same again.
PN361
Are there any other alterations to your statement?---That is the only thing.
PN362
PN363
MR WHITLEY: Ms Mokdessi, could you tell me what your job title is at CSL?---Your Honour, I am the financial accountant at CSL. My responsibilities don't lie with one particular division within CSL. I look after the operational side of it which encompasses accounts payable, accounts receivable, fixed assets, systems accountant and also the financial side of inventory.
PN364
Focussing now on the CSLs accounts payable team which is a part of your group that you are responsible for can you tell us how many people are there in the accounts payable team?---In the accounts payable team we have a team leader and we currently have three full-time team members plus a part-time team member.
PN365
What are the main functions of those members of the team? Could you run through each one of them if there is differences or are they a group?---There is no differences between responsibilities. The only difference lies in that various team members look after a certain part of the ledger and that ledger being our customers, we have someone looking after the first, say, A to C customers, the next person looking after the next part of the ledger. The responsibilities of an accounts payable team member are to ensure that the company's accounts are paid in line with our policies with the terms of arrangements that we have got with the various entities that we deal with. Accounts payable team members process and match invoices, create payments, ensure that payments are made in
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XN MR WHITLEY
a timely and a duly manner. Accounts payable team members also perform a number of administrative roles such as ensuring the ordering of stationery and printing supplies for the finance team. They also distribute the mail that comes into the finance area to the finance team.
PN366
Thinking now of the role that was in mind for Mrs Angelis, what is expected of her in the job that you talked about on her return? Is it data entry or is it more than data entry?---No. When - on Angela's return she will be undertaking no task different to the other full-time team members that are currently employed by CSL. The only distinction is that Angela is available for work on three particular days or on three days. The other - we can't assign a particular part of the ledger to Angela because she is only in there three days. Our focus has become to provide a service and that is a service not only to our internal customers, also our external customers. If someone rings up, someone has a query, we need to be able to cover them and be able to advise them, help them out with their query. By assigning a specific part of the ledger to that we might be leaving ourselves uncovered for two days. So realistically the role that she will be undertaking - payments, data entry, reconciliations, vendor queries - will be exactly the same as the other team members, the only difference is that there is no specific part of the ledger, no particular customers will she be looking after.
PN367
Can I take you back to the first approach from Mrs Angelis when she contacted you and then there was several other meetings and contacts with you. There was a considerable period of time or was there just a brief time where you had discussions and negotiations with her about the hours and days?---The first approach was by myself, I believe, in December time and that was just a matter of courtesy just as a reminder to sort of say, you know, let us know about your intentions when you are - when they are, I guess, known. Feel free to come in and discuss your intentions with us. We arranged a meeting I think early January where Angela came in. It was a meeting between myself and Jo Costanza who is our accounts payable team leader. Prior to that meeting I had just prepared, I guess, you know, roles and responsibilities of an accounts payable team member. At that first meeting Angela, I asked Angela if she saw the role as any different from what she was previously undertaking and besides not looking solely after overseas customers there was no difference in the role and responsibilities. At that first meeting Angela was also - or also asked if
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XN MR WHITLEY
there will be any redundancies available for her because she would consider those. I said that in fact since she had gone on maternity leave the team has actually grown. When Angela was part of the - applied to go on maternity leave the team consisted of a team leader plus two full-time members and a part-time member, Angela being the part-time member. When Angela went on maternity leave we back-filled that role with a full-time contractor. That is how the, I guess, the team has grown to the three and a half team members plus the team leader. At that initial meeting in early January Angela, when advised that there will be no redundancies because the role has not been made redundant, Angela also asked if there was a possibility of maybe working from home say one day a week. Again I sort of reinforced that as the role was - to ensure that we were providing customer service focus to both our internal and external customers it possibly wouldn't be applicable. Had the role solely been say data entry we could possibly accommodate that but in the environment and I guess at CSL we need and what the people in the AP team do is provide a complete AP function. They are no longer just data entry clerks. At that point in time I think where we ended the meeting was that she would go away, think about it. She mentioned that she might be utilising some of her long service leave and I said, look, I am not too au fait with the provisions and directed her to possibly speak to the payroll manager who would be more able to help in that respect.
PN368
So could you summarise that by saying there was a significant amount of time examining the workload in the group, the workflow in the group and discussing that with Angela?---Prior to the meeting, yes, in being able to actually ascertain, well, what is it that we - what is it that the team needs, what is it that the organisation needs and what is it that, you know, we can give Angela in order to I guess be stimulated and want her to be actually working. I had only been with the - or I started with CSL at the end of August and in the time that I have been there a lot of process improvements have occurred, not just from myself, I guess, just in being able to understand, I guess, from the team's perspective, what they do and how that impacts on everyone else within the organisation. We have been able to streamline processes and I guess with all of that happening we were able to come up with, you know, I guess a role definition if you want to call it that.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XN MR WHITLEY
PN369
Thinking of work distribution in the morning and afternoon, the am/pm, could you explain to his Honour your view of the way the work is distributed across midday, for example, to use a point with particular emphasis on the distribution to the individual team members?---In my role, as I mentioned earlier, I look after or I oversee the accounts payable and accounts receivable function. So I can see the picture from say in accounts payable, I can see what the external customer would be looking at. In the morning they would, the external customer, being our suppliers, would receive our payments. They would have - at that point in time they would, I guess, allocate it, bank those funds. By about midday one would assume, hey, you know, I had spoken to someone at CSL. They had, you know, said that they have got X amount of invoices in the system. If they hadn't received full payment for that you would be contacting that party in the afternoon to sort of question, you know, where is my payment. From accounts payable perspective at CSL the workflow actually increases in the afternoon as a result of our external customers are contacting us, they have had time to, you know, see our payments, see what we have paid, what we haven't paid, you know, do that chasing around to work out, well, when is their payments coming, when is it not coming, are there any issues, do we need to supply, you know, invoices, copy invoices. Are there, you know, pricing issues that we need to go through. We also at CSL undertake payment runs on two days. We have two types of payment runs: one is a cheque run which is undertaken on a Monday afternoon commencing around the 3 o'clock mark and on a Friday we pay our customers electronically and that is transmitted so - to be actioned by the bank by no later than 4 o'clock. So the afternoon - I guess Mondays and Fridays are quite crucial to ensuring that we have got the additional resources on hand to ensure any payments that need to be transacted are actioned in a timely manner. The electronic payment side of things, nothing precludes the team members preparing those and having those ready in the system prior to the Friday afternoon so that could be, you know, undertaken any morning. It is the last step in the process and that is transmitting the payments, that is undertaken on a Friday afternoon. In order to ensure that there is a separation of duty that is undertaken by the team leader but at any point in time we need to ensure that there are adequate staff that can meet the demands of payments that may be required. One last thing I guess is at CSL we have a department called registry which is responsible, amongst other things, for the distribution of mail. They have various, I guess, mail deliveries and the last delivery is actually made at approximately 3 o'clock. One of the roles and responsibilities of the AP team is to distribute those mail runs. When
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XN MR WHITLEY
I say distribute, it is virtually, it is just sorting through that mail and putting it in the team members' pigeon holes. That last mail run of the day is normally internal mail and I would say approximately 80, maybe 85 per cent of that mail would be mail coming in to the accounts payable team. That would consist of invoices that had to be authorised or physically authorised by various staff members throughout the organisation or invoices that required action. They are pricing goods, receipting, etcetera. The balance would be internal correspondence or mail going to the various accountants, accounts receivable team etcetera in the finance team.
[3.56pm]
PN370
You have got a number of people who work in that team. Can you tell me what their hours of duty are? What time they start and finish?---Yes. In accounts payable as I mentioned we have got team leader and three full-time team members plus a part-timer. The one thing that I found is that I guess the standard CSL hours are 20 to 9 to 10 to 5. We needed to ensure that - because CSL have those hours it doesn't necessarily mean our external customers have those hours. We needed to ensure that we have got coverage. As a result and I guess through discussion with the team members we have staggered starting hours and staggered - as a result staggered finishing hours. Our first team member comes on board at 8. The next team member is at 8.30 and then the last full-time team member is at 10 to 9 and as a result we have two team members finishing at 20 to 5 - 10 to 5 and then one finishing at 4.30. There is one team member that starts at 8 because they are on a nine-day fortnight so they pick up the extra bit of time each week. The team leader is in the office any time between 7 to 8 o'clock and leaves any time between 5 and 6 and I guess as a team leader it is her responsibility to ensure that they do have that coverage in the team.
PN371
So you have those people doing all of those activities in the team?---Yes.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XN MR WHITLEY
PN372
Could those other members of the team handle the workload in Angela's absence after 3 o'clock? Would that cause you any difficulties at all?---Would it cause me personally - it wouldn't cause, I could say it wouldn't cause me any difficulties because I am not processing the invoices and I am not actually answering the phones and doing the vendor reconciliations but just from the experience of the nine months that I have been there we have had to on quite a number of occasions get additional resources. Even today I have got someone in there doing the filing for the team because in order for them to get back up to date, you know, they are either processing their invoices or they are doing their filing. We have one team member that is constantly able to keep up to date with their, I guess, processing side of things. The others need that extra resource. By asking someone to, I guess, stay to 4, 4.30 or to have the whole day I just want to have a smoothing effect amongst the team members that their workload is eased, I guess, amongst them all.
PN373
In your opinion would either Angela or Julie Minnette have a better understanding of the workload and the workflow of that team or would your opinion be better, do you think?---Prior to today I have never met Julie and Angela I have met on a number of occasions when we have had our meetings and she came into work for one day. I have worked for about 10 years and I have worked at a number of large organisations and I guess in that period of time you get an understanding of what works and what doesn't work and you are able, I guess, to experiment with various things. As I mentioned when I first came to CSL the AP team were virtually undertaking payments ever single day, we were chasing our tails. There were no processes in place to ensure that, you know, we had controls and that everyone within the organisation understood what we were doing. I think someone like me, and be it that it is only 10 years, that might not be a long time for other people to, I guess, and people have worked longer, but see how organisations such as Email, CUB, Gillette work and maybe what I could bring from those, the good things, you know, I think processes have improved dramatically in the accounts payable team. Even to the sense that, you know, we are undertaking reconciliations of our customers' accounts which was something that the team said that they did but, you know, actually didn't have any time to do previously. So we are trying to be proactive in order to satisfy the customers' needs and wants.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XN MR WHITLEY
PN374
Do you think that Julie Minnette would have any idea of the operation of the accounts payable team?---Then again, sorry, like today was the first time that I met Julie and I can't pass judgment on what she knows and what she doesn't know. I know in the nine months that I have been there Julie hasn't been part of the AP team or the finance team.
PN375
Perhaps I can rephrase it. Would a marketing assistant, you happens to be Julie Minnette - - -?---No.
PN376
- - - know as much - - -?---No.
PN377
Can you answer in that context?---Well, sorry, from a financial perspective, no, I think you actually have to be part of finance. You have to have a finance background or an understanding of how an accounting department would run to be able to pass that kind of judgment.
PN378
And given the changes that have occurred over the last 15 months in particular when Mrs Angelis has been away do you think that Mrs Angelis would be an expert in the way the work flows through accounts payable?---Again I can only comment on the nine months that I have been there. In the nine months that I have been there or prior to me starting there we had a system upgrade which meant it was the same system that we are using but a different version which require - - -
PN379
Is that a computer system you are talking about?---Sorry, a system upgrade, a computer system upgrade, which would mean training was undertaken for all team members. Angela hasn't used the new version. Also I guess from an operational perspective she knows, she may know how the department worked when she was here 15 months ago but a lot has changed. CSL has grown dramatically, we have had a number of overseas acquisitions, and what I have tried to do in coming in is ensure that the flow through the department and the work is evenly distributed, is managed, is actioned in a timely manner and to ensure that the staff are happy, you know, doing what they are doing and that,
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XN MR WHITLEY
you know, the service that they are providing to not only finance but to the company as a whole is in a level that is acceptable. So I don't know how someone being away from a role for 15 months with the changes that have occurred in the company could actually, you know, pass judgment on what are the best needs for the department.
PN380
Ms Mokdessi, have you personally taken any action to help Mrs Angelis in meeting her needs in relation to her work?---In respect of hours?
PN381
In respect of her working hours, yes?---Like I said when our initial meetings were with Angela we were looking at hours of 8 to 4.40 which were her hours prior to her going on leave. She initially spoke about, you know, reducing her hours to a finish time of 2.30. When asked whether or not she believed she could undertake her role and responsibility within those hours she said, no. What we have, I guess, the last meeting that we had with Trev and Angela some two, three weeks ago, we went and explored ways of possibly how we can maybe fit in with her needs. On 13 May, which was straight after our meeting with Trev and Angela, I spoke to the team at that point in time. One person said, yes, it would relieve the stress by having someone to, you know, working to 4, 4.40. I said, worse case scenario you can't have someone for three, four days, what do we do. They said possibly a start time of 9, maybe even consider 9.30, but definitely we would need the coverage in the afternoon, the coverage to approximately 4 o'clock. We have also gone in and - I have gone and contacted a recruitment agency that we use to find out, well, if Angela was to finish at 3 o'clock what kind of coverage can we get, what kind of outside assistance could we get. They felt that in order to make the role worthwhile to any kind of candidate he would have to have longer than an hour. There would be no way that we could actually get someone for an hour. Cost-wise I guess to the company, which is, would be for four hours and I guess at the end of the day it is irrelevant. It is about whether or not we can get the job done and someone to do that. We have also - through Grant's assistance we have gone in and tried to obtain some details on some after school care, some childcare. Whether or not that is useful I can't make judgment on that. And I know even as late as two days ago Grant had sent out an e-mail to our HR managers both at our Parkville site and our Broadmeadows site, to see if they knew of any positions or any roles or forthcoming roles within the organisation that can possibly meet the time requirement needs of Angela but I don't believe any kind of positive results have come about as a result of those e-mails.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XN MR WHITLEY
PN382
Can I take you to paragraph 27 on page 6 of your statement, Ms Mokdessi. ?---Sorry, paragraph?
PN383
Paragraph 27, the one that starts off:
PN384
Sometime after the meeting of 9 May - - -
PN385
?---Mm.
PN386
Can I get you to explain that a little bit more? Can you talk to me about the detail of the conversations. You have given the summary there at the end of what they have concluded and you have related it but can you tell me how you approached that?---We had our meeting - I can't tell you, it might have been about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, maybe 3.30 in the afternoon. It was late afternoon. The meeting was between myself, Angela, Trev and Grant. Everything that had been previously discussed with Angela was discussed again and Trev had suggested that, you know, maybe - I guess maybe that I wasn't capable or, I don't know, maybe I needed to consider the team members' views. They had been previously considered but on his request, after our meeting concluded, I went and spoke to the team. At that point in time there was only two team members left, one had already finished for the day. The two team members that were left, the first one whose name is Alicja was the first one to pipe up and said, look, it would be of great benefit to have someone to relieve the stress as such. That was confirmed by Lauren. Lauren is a team member that is finishing up with us today. Prior to getting back to Angela I waited till the following morning and spoke to the third team member and she agreed that definitely they would need that extra resource.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XN MR WHITLEY
PN387
Did you discuss or explore further the option of taking the work home and why that was concluded the way it was?---Yes, yes. That was an option that Angela even brought up from one of our initial meetings in the beginning of Jan. Again I sort of, or back in January I reinforced that it is a customer service focus without sort of saying it is just purely data entry and you can have data, you know, you can take home invoices. You needed to be there to deal with various internal customers be it CSL staff. our external customers, we can't be redirecting calls there. I guess also for privacy we can't be allowing financial information to leave the organisation and I guess also because of there were days in between when she was in the office and not in the office what would be the situation if we required those, you know, that data, those invoices, be it for instance that we needed to match an invoice back to a payment, be it someone was questioning some costs that had been allocated to their department. I guess there would be a lag in us being able to obtain that information.
PN388
Would coming in earlier alleviate the problems?---It will only alleviate the problem if the role was pure data entry and as I have mentioned earlier the role is not purely data entry. The role involves people and people are unpredictable. From our experience, as we have all mentioned before, it seems to get much busier in the afternoon. Yes, I guess the data entry side would be up to date but it won't alleviate people coming into the department, phone calls being made, us actually having to, you know, make queries and demands on our customers for, you know, supply of some information. So in fulfilling the role in its entirety I don't see what benefits you can have coming in earlier. I know from my perspective I actually like to come in earlier because I get a bit done prior to the other team members coming in or other staff members but when you are dealing and your work is actually created and generated from outside forces you need to ensure that you have exposure and have coverage.
PN389
Could you explain to his Honour, and this is near the end, I won't keep you there for much longer, could you explain to his Honour the standards that you expect from the accounts payable team at CSL?---Yes. As I mentioned I have worked at a number of other organisations and have been able to see things that have worked and have not worked. In coming to CSL I guess it was a great opportunity for me to look at how things are operated, how can we improve things, what are the things that are working that, you know, for the time being
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XN MR WHITLEY
we should be happy with. We need to ensure that we are providing a service to our customers that is of the level that is acceptable. Be it that it is ensuring that our payments are made in an appropriate manner, be it that it is responding to our customers' queries in a reasonable timeframe, we are there to serve the rest of the organisation. The finance function, not just AP, it is virtually the last step in the process but if that step is not undertaken correctly it can have serious ramifications to the other operations within the organisations, be it that if payments are late a supplier may put us on stop supply, be it that if a payment run is not undertaken, you know, various suppliers are not going to be happy about that. We need to ensure that the various operations within the organisations are undertaken and undertaken I guess in an appropriate manner.
PN390
If Ms Angelis was allowed to work the hours she wished, which I think might be for example 9 to 2.30 pm for example, three days a week, how will this impact on the team's productivity?---As of today I can say that the team would be close to 95 per cent up to date. In the nine months that I have been there I don't think we can actually say that it has occurred. I am not willing to actually let the team fall behind again. That is also the view held by CSL in the fact that they have deployed additional resources to accounts payable to ensure that they maintain a level that our customers are happy with. I am not confident at this point in time that the accounts payable team can function fully and to the level that is required by having someone come in for I guess three-quarters of a day. One thing that has been raised is that we currently have a person, a part-time person, that is only working two days and the number of hours that Angela proposes are in excess of that. It is not really the hours that are worked, it is what is covered in those hours. The person that is currently working two days a week is purely doing data entry and a hell of a lot of that data entry. This morning I obtained a report just to see the volumes processed. This team member since Monday, Monday to close of business yesterday, processed some 400-odd invoices. In comparison to the other team members they range between 1 and 200 invoices. That is evident that the other team members are focussing on other areas and those other areas are customer queries, vendor reconciliations, be it their filing, be it, you know, handling queries.
PN391
I will take you to Mrs Angelis' statement which I don't think you have in front of you but I will read a couple of excerpts from that and ask you to comment?---Yes.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XN MR WHITLEY
PN392
Paragraph 12 it says:
PN393
I am aware of another person who works part-time from 10 am to 2.30 pm in the finance division. I believe CSL could accommodate a similar arrangement for me.
PN394
Are you familiar with that role?---I became familiar with it yesterday. That person actually works in our payroll department. That person has been on these part-time hours since about '98, '95 - '95 maybe, mid 90s. That person actually, whose name is Wendy, started with the organisation as a full-time employee. Due to a decrease in her workload and that is because a payroll was then transferred to our Broadmeadows site for them to process, her hours in agreeance with the union and the employee themselves decreased to part-time hours along the lines of what Grant has spoken about. Those hours were not as a result of any kind of maternity, childcare needs. This persona actually didn't go on maternity leave till some 14 months after their hours were dropped to the 10 to 2 or 10 to 2.30 that we are talking about.
PN395
So is there any critical difference between - - -?---The only critical differences that I can see is that what this person undertakes is a role only that they undertake, they are not supporting anyone else. Their role is to process American Express statements for our employees within the organisation. That is her sole responsibility. It is not a role that is undertaken by a team of three, four or five people. The reason that the hours were decreased is that when part of the payroll moved to our Broadmeadows site we felt that we may lose this team member because she wasn't, I guess she wasn't being challenged as much with what work was available for her. She was the - we approached her to say, you know, if you wanted to stay, instead of looking, you know, we have a part-time opportunity for you and as I said again that was in agreeance with the union at the time.
PN396
Okay, thank you for that. Point 15 in Angela's statement says:
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XN MR WHITLEY
PN397
Over 30 people work in the finance division. Other staff can assist when we are busy in accounts payable.
PN398
Is there anything wrong with that statement?---No. There is probably over 30 people in the finance department but there is only three and a half team members plus a team leader in accounts payable. We all become specialised in what we do. I know I can - if I am walking through accounts payable and the phone rings I can take a call and I can look up on the system and tell the customer whether or not their invoice is in the system. I can't say that everyone else in finance can do that. We have a team that looks over accounts receivable, a team that looks after payables. We have various divisional accountants. People are employed in their own specialised field. Whether or not we are saying, I guess with that statement we are saying that everyone should be or is able to do the workload of accounts payable, I guess that is not for me to answer, but the accounts payable team consists of three and a half team members and a team leader, not 30 people.
PN399
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think the evidence is four that you gave before, Ms - - -?---Yes, and that is the three and a half - four people comprising of three full-timers and one part-timer.
PN400
Which is only half the hours is what you are saying for the part-timer?---Yes, so still four people, yes, and a team leader.
PN401
MR WHITLEY: I have no more questions.
PN402
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Mr Whitley.
PN403
Ms Mokdessi, just before Ms Cooper asks you what questions she has to ask you, you may have - I think you were absent from the courtroom but there is evidence uncontested at the time that if Ms Angelis was successful in having her proposal to work till 3 pm agreed to by the company that in fact that would represent three hours or perhaps three and a half hours more available time to the company than is currently the case?---Yes.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XN MR WHITLEY
PN404
If that is the case could you explain to me what specific dislocations, very specific dislocations would occur to the company in the hour of Ms Angelis' absence between 3 and what the company has already agreed to as I understand it 4?---Or agreed to for a trial period of two months? We undertake - I think the most crucial part of any accounts payable function is the payment side of things and our two payment runs are undertaken, firstly, at 3 o'clock and, secondly, at the latest at 4 o'clock on a Friday. It is each of the accounts payable team member's responsibility to ensure that that payment run is undertaken and undertaken in an orderly manner. AT the moment it is the team leader's responsibility to do that. It is virtually working out to be about every second week the various team members are relieving the team leader of that responsibility. The cheque run is undertaken at the latest at around 3. That process is about a half-an-hour process, everything going smoothly. Once that is completed a register of all payments to be made is generated.
PN405
Yes. With respect, Ms Mokdessi, that is not my question. You are telling me what gets done?---Yes.
PN406
My question was is what are the specific dislocations that would occur to the company in the absence of - - -?---The lack of support in the team. It would be - - -
PN407
And that would show itself in what way?---Our processing falling behind, us spending more time, say, the following morning returning calls as opposed to being able to handle and answer the customer's query then and there. I guess it is ensuring that the team is able to be responsive to the needs of our customers. All we are doing is deferring the work to a following day. The customers need to be provided with some level of service.
PN408
But are you not doing that now in a total hours less than what is proposed - - -?---No. No, in the respect that the team are saying that, you know, if they were to have someone on board they would like to have someone else to assist with that. The part-timer that we have at the moment is virtually undertaking the data entry side of things so it is left for the other three team members and the team leader to field be it the queries, be it, you know, the undertaking of the payment runs. By spreading it over the extra team member it relieves some of that workload across all team members.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XN MR WHITLEY
PN409
Sorry, if I am understanding you correctly it is being done with those three team members currently, not the fourth or half team member, as you have put it?---The half team member may - the half team member's phone actually is - when the phone lines of the three team members are being utilised all calls get diverted to that last team member. It is not - the person that - the reason that that part-timer has come on board is to assist with the data entry side of things, not to actually assist with vendor reconciliations or handling of the customer queries. As I gave in the example about the number of invoices that are processed, there is a dramatic increase in the number of invoices processed by this part-time team member in comparison to what the other team members are doing. Be it that we say that if we have got someone on board that is doing the full accounts payable function that is spread evenly. We can ensure that the data entry side of things is distributed evenly amongst the team members. They are able to say, I guess, that they are satisfied in what they are doing, that their job doesn't solely relate to, you know, having to deal with irate customers, it doesn't solely relate to having to do vendor reconciliations. They are able to do the full AP function. And I guess - - -
PN410
I am not sure, Ms Mokdessi, that I am clear on what the specific dislocations are so I think to a large extent that is - well, that is a very significant point as far as this whole matter is concerned?---I think that - - -
PN411
And I don't mean to sort of keep putting the same question to you but it is important that you explain to me exactly what it is that is going to suffer?---I think the level of service that we provide. As it stood when I first got there we were virtually chasing our tail. There were no processes in place, those processes being to streamline when we undertake payments runs, those processes being to stagger the start and finish time of our employees. You are really looking at ensuring there is, you know, the service that you are providing to each person. It might mean that say on a Friday afternoon we get no calls but that doesn't mean that we, as an organisation, do not provide a service to ensure that anything that may come up is actioned as such and actioned in an appropriate manner.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XN MR WHITLEY
PN412
Let me put the question another way to you. What would you do if there was a determination that 3 pm was the time that Ms Angelis could finish work? What would you need to do?---What would have to happen is that we would have to see - be it it is a month, be it a couple of weeks, see what suffers as a result of that. For Angela to be finishing at 3 o'clock she is not actually doing the full accounts payable function what the other team members are doing because she is not undertaking any kind of accounts payable payments. Be it that that is the only thing that suffers I guess the number and the volume that she would deal with, be it invoice processing, would be also different to what the other team members are doing. If, you know, if what she is looking at doing is, you know, not undertaking a full AP function, you know, that is what will result. It would also result in the company, if we fall behind, in having to get an additional resource, be it trying to obtain a part-time staff member or getting contract staff in.
PN413
Thanks, Ms Mokdessi?---Yes.
PN414
Yes, Ms Cooper.
PN415
MS COOPER: Mr Ward is going to cross-examine.
PN416
PN417
MR WARD: Hi, Leila?---Hi, Trev.
PN418
This morning what did you discuss during the recent adjournment with Grant and the solicitor from Freehills?---Whether or not, whether or not if Angela coming back next week on a basis or a finish time of 3 o'clock would assist the team or whether or not it would be a detriment to the team.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN419
Did you discuss anything else?---No. I actually contacted my supervisor, the controller, to see what her views were and I was also made aware that two of the team members which I had spoken to on 13 May had apparently said that it wouldn't be of detriment if Angela did not stay till 4 o'clock which was complete, I guess, opposite to what was mentioned to me at the time.
PN420
So you are telling me that you discussed your testimony during the adjournment?---No, we contacted Karen Neave who is the financial controller to find out whether or not the impact or what the impact would be if Angela did return next week to finish at a 3 pm basis. Taking into consideration we have one team member leaving us today, you know, what kind of result will that have on the team.
PN421
But you just mentioned there were two people who said something different to you?---To - yes.
PN422
How did you know that?---That was brought to my attention.
PN423
When?---When we were at break, adjournment.
PN424
So are you telling me that during the adjournment you discussed the other witnesses' testimony?---The other witnesses?
PN425
Julie Minnette's testimony?---No, not Julie's.
PN426
Well, how - - -?---Or I don't know who - sorry, I don't know whose - yes.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN427
But you are telling me that during the adjournment either Grant or the other fellow told you that there was, one of the witnesses had said there was a problem in your testimony - - -?---No, there is no problem in my testimony. On 13 May, after meeting with yourself and Angela and based on your recommendations of speaking to the team, I went down and spoke to the team. The team at that point in time, and it was Alicja who was the first to pipe up and say it would be of great benefit, it would relieve the stress on having someone come in - - -
PN428
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Ward, can I just sort of cut this short because I am not sure that it is serving too much useful purpose and the reason I say that is because so far the evidence from both parties, in my view, is simply hearsay in respect of this and I am not inclined to put much weight upon it either in the case of the company or in the case of the union. So I am not sure that we gain too much by - - -
PN429
MR WARD: Yes, sir.
PN430
Can I just take you to paragraph 3 in your statement, Leila?---Yes.
PN431
I am just wondering if you could give us some more information about CSL. How many people does CSL employ?---I, like I said, from a CSL perspective my role is in finance. I couldn't tell you what the divisions do and how many people they employ. On a divisional basis in an accounting perspective if I was a divisional accountant I could possible give you that. I can tell you about an operational side of things and who I look at.
PN432
Can you estimate how many people CSL employ in Melbourne?---Look, I would be only guessing so I would say, no, I can't.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN433
What about in Parkville where you work? I mean how many - you know, you walk around the site. How many people would work on the Parkville site?---Look, I could not - I could not estimate. My - what I am or what I deal with is I deal with finance and I deal with the finance operational team. If I was, like I said, a divisional accountant I would be able to give you a head count.
PN434
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Does the question have a relevance, Mr Ward?
PN435
MR WARD: Yes, it goes to the - the relevance is the degree of flexibility that the company has in moving people around.
PN436
A reasonable say is there is round about 500 people working on the Parkville site?---Okay, I will take that on board.
PN437
Okay. Do other departments in Parkville have transferable skills which can be used in finance and more particularly in accounts payable?---Other departments. I can't tell you that but I can give you - we, one of CSLs policies is to advertise all jobs internally. Just as late as last week we had applications closing for a role in accounts receivable. We had I know at least one person from another department apply for that. The team leader of accounts receivable is yet to review all those applications so I would assume there would be other people within the organisation. Whether or not they are fully capable of undertaking that role is another question.
PN438
But there are areas like purchasing and payroll and - - -?---Payroll is part of finance.
PN439
- - - accounts receivable?---Accounts receivable is part of finance, yes.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN440
Yes, so there is a bigger pool of people with relevant skills or potentially having relevant skills than simply the three or four people in accounts payable?---Yes, but relevant skills to undertake the job at the level required, that is where we need to look at and I guess if you are heading down the track of sort of saying there is 30 people in finance, the 29 other people could be answering the calls and could be handling the customers queries. I don't think they are specialised enough. I couldn't do what you do, you possible couldn't do what I do. We possibly know in part what the role entails but to be providing the level of service that can't be done.
PN441
So can you tell me how people get that level of specialisation perhaps when they move from one area of the company to another?---Yes, through training, through past experience, I guess through education, yes.
PN442
So the company has contingencies in place that can be used when people leave to train people up or move someone into the department to - - -?---One of the things with Angela returning and which was discussed in our initial meeting in January was that I didn't want her to feel that she was thrown in the deep end coming back and using a new computer system, one that I believe hasn't changed that dramatically but like I said I wasn't with the organisation to see what the old system was like. One thing that we are quite critical about is ensuring that she has the appropriate training, I guess notes, guidance, on how to use the system. It is an important function of the accounts payable function because if we, I guess if we enter something incorrectly we could have the possibility of either over-paying or under-paying a customer which has serious financial ramifications and in that respect, yes, training is undertaken. Yes.
PN443
Can I just clarify, what are the preferred days that Angela works from the company's perspective?---We initially discussed, I think it was a Tuesday and a Friday and off the top of my head I can't tell you what the other day was - sorry, Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday, that was on Monday, 7 Jan when we had the meeting and on my notes and I - it is reference LM7 we had in brackets negotiable. At that time also Angela sort of said, you know, are we negotiable on those and I said, yes. Look, this is a guideline on what we need. In our second meeting we asked whether or not - or still negotiable, the days would be Monday and Friday - sorry, Monday, Tuesday and Friday and the reason being is having the extra resources on those payment days.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN444
So your preference is Monday, Tuesday and Friday, just to clarify?---Yes. The reason for the - the reason for I guess Monday we know, because of the pay run, Friday because of the pay run. Tuesday is a follow-on from Monday afternoon's activities. The team members are actually collating and putting together all the information related to that cheque run. Prior to our payments being released I need to authorise that I am comfortable with the payments being released and as part of that process the team provide me with various details of invoices.
PN445
But you have also said that the company is flexible as well as regards which particular day it is?---Correct, and that flexibility - no problems, yes. We would at least like coverage on a payment day and I guess the flexibility is shown by the fact that we haven't sort of said, yes, we do need the 8 to 4.40. That would be ideal. We are willing to trial this 9 to 4 pm. I guess the fact that the company is flexible is that we have explored the other avenues without just saying no.
PN446
If I can just take you to the last sentence in point number 5?---Yes.
PN447
Where you state:
PN448
Angela Angelis will take over part of the role currently performed by Ms Kapnoullas from Monday, 3 June.
PN449
?---Yes.
PN450
What duties does Ms Kapnoullas do?---That is - Vicki is actually undertaking a hell of a lot of our data entry for us. Angela's role or when Angela went on maternity leave we hired on a contract basis Elissa Awty. Elissa Awty was hired on a full-time basis, a contract full-time basis - - -
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN451
You are going beyond the question I think we are asking you?---No, but to tie it back in to where Angela's role fits, Angela, when she went on her leave, was replaced by a full-time person. Vicki has been with the organisation for the majority of the time that I have been there as the extra resource because we have determined that the department has grown from the two and a half team members to definitely the three and it has been proved that it is definitely a three and a half team member role. So Vicki - - -
PN452
So can you tell me - so Angela is taking over part of the role currently performed by Ms Kapnoullas?---Correct, and the role when Angela comes back would be her full accounts payable function, as she was doing previously. So what Vicki is doing is purely data entry.
PN453
How many hours a week does Vicki work and how many days per week?---Vicki - yes, up until about, be it a month or - - -
PN454
No, no, how many hours a week does she work now?---All right, currently - at her current contract which expires today she is working two days a week, I don't know, approximately 8 hours. Prior to that contract expiring - - -
PN455
And which - - -?---Can I just finish, please? Prior to that contract - - -
PN456
Well, I have asked you a question and I am just asking you - - -?---Yes, but no, just to see - - -
PN457
I am just asking you to answer the question?---Yes, just to see how it all fits in - - -
PN458
No, but can you just answer my question, please?
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN459
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just answer the question please?---Yes. Her current contract which is - - -
PN460
MR WARD: No?---Yes, yes.
PN461
That is sufficient?---Done.
PN462
Which days does Ms Kapnoullas work?---Mondays and Fridays and also any other days required. This week she has worked every day and last week she has also come in on an extra couple of days, yes.
PN463
But nevertheless Angela will be doing a bigger spread of duties from what you have already said?---Angela will be doing the role that she was undertaking prior to going on leave with the exception that she is not looking after solely the overseas accounts, she is looking at the, all of our customers in the same manner that the other team members are doing.
PN464
In the same manner? Previously you stated that Angela won't have part of the ledger to look after?---That is correct but - - -
PN465
She is - did you not say that she is providing a support role to the other team members?---And in the same way that she may be looking at an overseas customer, she will be looking at a local customer. She doesn't have a specific customer, but all of our customers need to be provided with a level of service and that is what I am hoping Angela can do.
PN466
So rather than doing - being the same as other team members, in fact Angela's role is different?---No, it is an accounts payable full function team member and the tasks that she will be undertaking are exactly the same, be it that she might be looking at one customer one week and another customer another week, that is the only difference.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN467
Can I just take you to point number 7?---Yes.
PN468
Where you state:
PN469
It is important to note that the responsibility for completing these tasks cannot be broken up between members of the accounts payable team.
PN470
?---Mm.
PN471
To which tasks are you referring?---In order to say that one team member should be the sole responsibility of the data entry, that one team member should have the sole responsibility of doing cheque remittances. In order to ensure that the team members are kept satisfied, that the team members are employable, that the team members have the skills that are out there they need to ensure that they can do all of those. We are not creating or in finance we do not have a role for a mail person, we don't have a role for a data entry person. We have roles for full function - - -
PN472
What is Ms Kapnoullas' role?---Vicki has only come back to us to help us bring the team back up to date and it is only this interim period awaiting Angela's return that Vicki has been a data entry clerk.
PN473
But you just said there was no role for a data entry - - -?---Yes, it is - - -
PN474
You are now saying that there is a role for a data entry person?---No, Trev, what I am saying is that in the time until Angela returns from her leave Vicki is doing more of the data entry than the other guys are doing, I guess at the expense of possibly evenly distributing the workload against the team members.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN475
But doesn't that contradict what have you said in point 7?---No, not really; no, not really.
PN476
You have stated that these tasks cannot be broken up between members of the accounts payable team but - - -?---All right, if you are asking me - - -
PN477
But what in fact is happening with data entry to begin with is that that task has been broken up?---Yes. If you are asking me if I am contradicting myself I do not believe I am contradicting myself.
PN478
Can we just move on to the mail distribution. What - - -?---Where are you now?
PN479
That is the second point, dot point?---Yes, all right, yes.
PN480
What is involved in mail distribution? Can you explain that?---We have a department called registry who, amongst other things, their responsibility is to distribute mail to the site. Mail comes into the finance area. One thing that we had found is that it just sat there. Accounts payable took it upon themselves to ensure that they went through the mail, allocated it out to where it relates to. It is virtually opening up the internal mail, external mail envelopes and putting them in pigeon holes. As I mentioned earlier the majority of the work that comes through or the majority of the mail that comes in is accounts payable invoices.
PN481
Who opens up the mail?---The actual external mail or internal mail?
PN482
Well, the mail that comes in. The person who puts it in the pigeon holes?---It is the accounts payable team. In their internal envelopes or even still in their envelopes that they have come in externally. It is distributing the mail into pigeon holes.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN483
Is that a task that can be done by one person?---No, it is not actually done by one person.
PN484
No, I am saying is it possible for one person to open up the mail and put the mail into pigeon holes?---From an accounts payable perspective I would hate to say, hey, you know, person A, it is your responsibility to do the mail. It is something that needs to be shared amongst each other. They have to be seen or they are equals and they should be doing the same roles.
PN485
You have said in point 7 that these tasks cannot be broken up?---Yes.
PN486
But you are now telling me that it is more of a case of, you know, balancing?---Trev, if I put the question back at you, if I asked you to do something - - -
PN487
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't think that that is available to you, Ms Mokdessi?---All right. Well, in that particular instance I guess if Angela would like to come back on board and distribute our mails I am willing to take her on board.
PN488
MR WARD: Well, I haven't - that is not what I am saying?---Okay. Yes, yes, the mail can be distributed by one person, Trev.
PN489
Okay. No, I understand that dealing with customer queries that is clearly an issue that needs to be undertaken by the team?---Yes.
PN490
Vendor reconciliations, what does that involve?---We receive or organisations issue statements on a monthly basis. The statements outline invoices outstanding. In an effort to be proactive we are now starting to or we have been for the last four or five months reconciling these accounts. So - - -
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN491
Who reconciles which account?---The accounts payable team members reconcile their accounts.
PN492
Is that because they have a particular set of accounts that they deal with?---That is correct; that is correct, and - - -
PN493
But Angela doesn't have a particular set of accounts that she deals with?---And that is why I believe that we are possibly not doing everything that we are currently doing. By having this additional resource we are bringing ourselves up to the level where we should be at. Angela is there to assist us and also undertake the role that she was previously doing.
PN494
So what vendor reconciliations would Angela do?---Off the top of my head, be it that it is our main customers, be it it is our recruitment agencies, we need to look at on a monthly basis what are the ones, what are our problem accounts and that is what is currently being undertaken.
PN495
And what timeframe would those reconciliations need to take place in?---Previously all of our recs were due in the last week of the month and what we found is that the team members left that task to the end of the month to do at the expense of ensuring that our data entry was up to date. We have staggered when those due dates are and it is virtually at the, I think, week two, week three and week four, various recs are due.
PN496
Am I right in saying that there is several days or weeks when these recs - there is a timeframe of several days or weeks on which the reconciliations can be done?---You are correct there because we need to ensure that we have received the statement from the customer.
PN497
Okay, so that is something that Angela could do in her role as a support person to the other team members?---Angela can do that in her role as an accounts payable team member.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN498
Thank you. Filing of processed invoices. Is that also - are you also stating that is something that can't be broken up between the members of the accounts payable team?---No, it is undertaken by all of them at the moment. As I mentioned earlier today, in an effort to ensure that the team members focus on getting their processing up to date I had asked them to just go in and process as much as they can. I will go in and ensure that the additional resources are brought in to do the filing.
PN499
So what additional resources do you have to assist you?---Today we have got a contractor in from Link Recruitment undertaking all the filing that hadn't been done for the week. That is cheque filing and filing of invoices processed during the week.
PN500
So with process - with filing of processed invoices that is something that can be done over a week?---No. No, no, the processing of invoices, we need to ensure that invoices are processed on a timely manner and the timely manner that or the target that we are aiming for - - -
PN501
No, the filing - you just said that - - -?---Sorry, filing of invoices, the timely manner is on a daily basis because once an invoice is processed it hits our account and anyone querying what is in their account might want to know, well, why have I incurred this cost.
PN502
But you just said that you, the filing hadn't been done for a week?---Correct.
PN503
And you have got somebody in from Link Recruitment who came in and assisted the team to do that?---Yes. We have had one team member who was ill on Monday.
PN504
No?---Yes. Can I - - -
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN505
But nevertheless there are things that you could put in place to - - -?---Two team members were up to date with their processing. One team member who had been ill on Monday had let her filing of her cheques go astray for a week. That was acceptable because our concerted effort being the last day of the month today we needed to ensure all of our expenses were in.
PN506
So which processed invoices would Angela file?---Whichever invoices she may have processed.
PN507
But, you know, you just said that you recruited somebody, a temp from an agency - - -?---Correct.
PN508
- - - to do a bulk load of invoices?---Correct.
PN509
So there is a work practice there where the person who processes the invoice isn't necessarily filing it?---No - - -
PN510
There are other possibilities?---Yes - - -
PN511
And you have also stated that that is something that can be done over a timeframe of a week?---Trev, that is the exception, not the rule. The rule is that each of the team members, whatever invoices they process, they go and file. As I mentioned again today is our last day of the month. It is quite critical that accounts payable are up to date and because of the fact that this is our second last month before our year end the emphasis for what the team had been working on this week is ensuring that all their processing is up to date. Again I will say it is the exception, not the rule, that the filing isn't undertaken in a timely manner.
PN512
Well, is it something that happens during a busy time of year and something that is allowed to happen and you have the opportunity to draw upon a labour-hire person, for example?---So - I don't know what you are getting at, Trev.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN513
What I am saying, perhaps I can move on. I think the point has been made there that it is something that is done over a longer timeframe and - - -?---No, it is not acceptable because like I said when I first got here we had filing that hadn't been undertaken, the processes and the procedures in place in accounts payable were not acceptable, not just from a finance perspective - - -
PN514
Yes, I - - -?--- - - - but from the organisation perspective.
PN515
I wasn't asking you if it was best practice, I was simply asking if it is something that happens for which you have contingencies?---We - it does not happen on a regular basis these days because we have processes in place.
PN516
But it has happened this week. Cheque remittances, what is involved in cheque remittances?---We undertake a cheque run on Monday afternoon. A cheque is generated and also a remittance advice is generated. A remittance advice advises the customer what invoices we are paying. We need to, for legal reasons, keep a copy of that and we also keep copies of the invoices for audit purposes to substantiate what costs we have paid. From an AP - from an accounts payable perspective that involves matching the invoices to the remittance advice and filing.
PN517
When is that done?---That is done on a Tuesday and is completed by Tuesday mid-morning or Tuesday lunch time. That is - - -
PN518
So that is an activity that is conducted on Tuesday morning?---Yes, and that is why I sort of, when we are looking at days, how we are talking about Monday, Tuesday and Friday because the cheque run is a follow-on or the follow-up of it is on a Tuesday.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN519
Would it assist, given that this is something, an activity that occurs on a Tuesday morning, given that Angela has volunteered to commence work at 7.30 in the morning, is that something that would assist the company to complete the cheque remittances?---On a Tuesday morning possibly but that means Angela would be the sole person doing that. Whether or not she would find that satisfying to be the sole person doing the filing, I am not sure.
[4.46pm]
PN520
That is work that is available with an early start which needs to be done which contributes to the operation of the team?---If Angela is willing - yes, that is great. Yes, if Angela is willing to do the cheque remittances every Tuesday by herself there is no problems there.
PN521
I am not saying that, I am simply asking is there work available on Tuesday mornings?---Work - there is work available, filing or attaching invoices to remittance advice on a Tuesday morning.
PN522
And it is important that those cheque remittances are done in a timely fashion that morning or by midday you were saying?---They are done in a timely manner so we can ensure that any payments going out, if anyone needs to review the payments they can see those.
PN523
You just said that, you know, well, if Angela wants to do that on her own in reference to cheque remittances, are you saying that that is also a task that can be broken up between members of the accounts payable team?---No, because it is actually split between three members at the moment and I don't - I personally and I know the team members when we trialled it, getting one person to do it each week, they didn't find it as an enjoyable role. That also led to them falling behind in other areas, in their data entry, in their follow-up to their customers and that is why it is split between the three team members.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN524
But nevertheless it is possible to break it up between members of the team, which is what you stated prior to that statement?---Whether or not it is satisfying for the individual, that is the question, and what we are looking at is not just whether or not a task can be done, we need to make sure that the task and the individual undertaking the task is satisfied with what they are doing.
PN525
So given that Angela doesn't have a specific part of a ledger, what cheque remittances would she be doing?---She would be, you know, assisting with - if a team member is on leave she would be helping any other team member. We may have, you know, a priority in collating or be it that she is obtaining all the cheque remittances that I need to review before releasing the cheques. Until we have Angela back on board I can't give you an answer to that, Trev.
PN526
Nevertheless it is the case that it can be done by one person or by two people or by three people?---But whether or not that one person is satisfied in doing that I think that is a big question that needs to be answered.
PN527
Processing the bank statements, what is involved in that task?---We send out our cheques and all the rest of it. Our system has a facility in that we can actually put in a date that our cheques have been presented so if a customer rings us up and says, hey, I haven't received my payment, blah, blah, blah, we are able to go into the system and say, yes, we can see we have paid your invoice number 123, we have paid it on our cheque number whatever. We are also able to tell the customer the date that they presented our cheque. This assists the customer in then I guess reconciling back to their statement and also tracking where their payments, where their receipts have been banked.
PN528
Over what timeframe does this need to occur?---It is done the very following morning so we download our bank statements at about 8 o'clock in the morning and by mid-morning at the very latest we need to ensure that the bank statements are processed to ensure that any data or any questions that we may get from the external customers is correct.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN529
So if Angela started work at 7.30 or 8 o'clock in the morning that is a task that she could do which, you know, has to be completed in a timely fashion which would assist the operations of the team?---It would but it wouldn't alleviate the pressures in the afternoon.
PN530
Is that a task that can be broken up between members of the team?---At the moment we have - this week we have had someone on leave and so another team member has been doing it. Because of a need to ensure that the team members get up to date and ensure what they are doing is done correctly, I have requested that specifically the team leader has that role. It is - the plan, as with, the same as with the cheque run, that the team members are multi-skilled and that they are able to take the responsibility of undertaking the full AP function.
PN531
So the real reason is not that it is not possible to break it up, it is - the real reason is it is your preference that it is not broken up?---At this point in time the reason that the team leader does it is to ensure that the other team members are able to prioritise and undertake the role or their roles to an acceptable level. As I mentioned we have had the team leader on leave this week and another team member has been doing that this week.
PN532
Nevertheless it is possible to organise the work differently in regard to processing the bank statements?---It certainly is, Trev.
PN533
Administration support - - -
PN534
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So, Mr Ward, can you give me an indication as to the sort of timeframe that you are going to be - - -
PN535
MR WARD: I would seek your suggestion on that.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN536
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I don't want to cut you short, Mr Ward. You have got your questions to answer so I really would - I just want to know where we sit in respect of the rest of or what remains of the day.
PN537
MR WARD: I think that - the questions on this page are far - there is far more questions I have got on this page than the other pages so I think it will move much quicker after this.
PN538
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right.
PN539
MR WARD: And I will bear in mind your suggestion to keep moving.
PN540
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I am not necessarily suggesting that. I am simply asking you so that I have got an indication as to when we will be adjourning for the day. I don't want to put the company to the dislocation of having to have Ms Mokdessi back here again on Monday.
PN541
MR WARD: Okay.
PN542
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So I would prefer to complete the cross-examination and any re-examination that Mr Whitley might have.
PN543
MR WARD: With administration support, you have got including stationery for the finance department, photocopy and printer maintenance. Are they indeed also activities that can be taken by one person or by each person?---It certainly is, Trev.
PN544
Would you like to consider what you have put in point number 7. You said;
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN545
It is important to note that the responsibility for completing these tasks cannot be broken up between members of the team.
PN546
In view of what we have just discussed is that actually the case?---Yes, it is in view of what we discussed, Trev, in ensuring that the team members are enriched, satisfied, wanting to come to work and undertake a role that is not doing the sorting of the mail, that is not consisting of attaching invoices to remittance advice. I would say that I would not like those tasks to be broken up.
PN547
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ms Mokdessi, perhaps in the interests of time but also in the interests of relevance you probably need only answer the question you have been asked?---Okay, I will say that what I have said there is still applicable.
PN548
Right.
PN549
MR WARD: How does the team complete work when other people are sick or on leave?---This week - we actually get additional resources. We have been fortunate that a team member that has previously worked for us has been available and we have got them on board. We also have - we also use agencies to assist when there is a shortfall of staff.
PN550
In the interests of wrapping things up more quickly?---Thanks, Trev.
PN551
Excuse me. If I can just take you to point number 10, mail distribution?---Yes.
PN552
What time is the mail sorted?---By finance or by registry?
PN553
By registry?---I can't answer that, I don't work in registry.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN554
Well, if it is delivered at 3 pm logically it must be sorted prior to then?---All I know is I see that registry team around the site during various times of the day. I can't answer that.
PN555
And what is the distance between registry and finance?---Some 50 metres, if that.
PN556
So it would be fairly easy to - from finance to pick up the mail as soon as it has been sorted?---If finance was to pick up the mail when it has been sorted, fine. We don't have a staff member, you know, dealing with the customers, we don't have a staff member processing. We actually have a department - - -
PN557
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So, your answer is no, Ms Mokdessi?---Correct.
PN558
Thank you.
PN559
MR WARD: How long do you think it would take someone to walk from finance to the mail room and back?---Trevor, I haven't actually placed a lot of thought into that, so - - -
PN560
Less than a minute?---Maybe about five minutes. Stop, have a bit of a chat.
PN561
Well, presume that someone walks straight there and straight back?---Okay, straight there and straight back, yes, a couple of minutes.
PN562
Thank you. If I can just take you to point 11. You refer to a post lunch period?---Mm.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN563
What is the post lunch period in your view?---Pm.
PN564
So anything after midday?---Yes.
PN565
So Angela would be working - and what time would the post lunch period finish?---Five - 4.40 is, or, sorry, 10 to 5 is when most - 4.40 is when the staff members leave. Our team leader is still there normally I would say minimum to 6. The - most organisations I assume work on a 9 to 5, so be it at 5 o'clock.
PN566
Given the average finish time is 4.40 so in your interpretation Angela would be there for three hours of a four hour forty minute post lunch period?---Yes, or from 12 o'clock to 4.40 when she finishes.
PN567
Okay, but what time do people take lunch breaks?---It is staggered also. What we like to have in the department to ensure coverage and that there is support there is - two people are there at any given time.
PN568
Thank you. How do you know that customers call in the afternoon?---We have a facility at work that we are able to see incoming calls and get details on calls going out. The team members, one being Ms Lauren Wall and the other one being Alicja - - -
PN569
Okay, no, the question was simply that, you know - - -?---Team members and also that we have got reports that we can generate that can tell us that.
PN570
Thank you, and is it possible to change the behaviour of people that call in the afternoon so that they will call in the morning?---Yes, we could tell the customer go away, we don't want to speak to you.
PN571
No, I didn't say - I didn't ask you if you could tell people to go away?---No, Trev - - -
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN572
I asked you if you could - - -?---In commercial reality, no, we can't.
PN573
I would just like to take you to point 12, the weekly cheque run?---Yes.
PN574
And earlier you said that the company was flexible as to which days Angela works?---Yes.
PN575
So according to what you have said Angela could say, well, I will work on Monday, Wednesday and Friday which would not give you assistance with the cheque runs. I assume that - - -?---Cheque run is undertaken on Monday.
PN576
Monday?---Yes.
PN577
When do the customers call?---The customers call every day.
PN578
But you said that there was a - in your testimony you said that there was a greater preponderance of people to call when they received the payment to query it?---The customers call of an afternoon time. If we have got local customers, that is in Victoria, they will receive their cheques on a Wednesday, because the cheques go out on a Tuesday. Interstate customers could ring on a Thursday, on a Friday. They can ring at any point in time.
PN579
Okay, so that is - it is spread across the week you are saying then?---Yes, that is correct.
PN580
So how do you propose to manage the work or indeed how do you manage the work now?---We have currently got three and a half team members and that the three and a half team members manage that work.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN581
And Angela would be additional?---No, because we have got three and a half team members. The half team member as such is a contract role and Angela's role is still waiting for her to return.
PN582
Thank you. And how will you manage the workload or the customers calling up on days when Angela is not at work?---We are yet to experience Angela being back at work so what it would mean is that the other team members would be picking up or would be taking up that additional workload.
PN583
Can I just take you to point 14?---Yes.
PN584
And indeed point 16. I just want to clarify something. In point 16 you say:
PN585
I was informed by Mr Whitley that following Ms Angelis' return from her first - - -
PN586
?---Sorry, which point are you looking at?
PN587
Point 16?---Yes.
PN588
That following her:
PN589
...return from her first period of maternity leave that a letter of offer of part-time employment from CSL dated 27 February 1998 -
PN590
just, if you can go to point 14 it appears to me that according to your spreadsheet that maternity leave finished in 1997?---That is correct.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN591
And there was a further period of full-time employment by 12 months?---Yes, that is correct.
PN592
Thank you, I just wanted to clarify that?---Yes, that is okay.
PN593
Prior to going on the most recent lot of maternity leave what job was Angela doing?---I was not with CSL but prior to going on maternity leave Angela was in the accounts payable team looking after overseas customers on a three-day basis working from 8 to 4.40 I believe.
PN594
Can the work be re-organised in accounts payable such that there is a workload that is solely foreign payments?---No, because with the globalisation of CSL and the increase market share it doesn't make it feasible for a three-day job. If we had someone on board for five days I could see that the overseas side could be maintained by that.
PN595
So what happens with those foreign payments now?---They are distributed in the same way that all the other ledger is. If a customer sits between A to C they are looked at by one team member, then the next range is looked at by another team member, etcetera.
PN596
Is it possible to distribute the ledger and have part of the ledger which is solely foreign payments?---No, because as I said it cannot be maintained by one person adequately for a three-day basis. To have it on a five-day basis would mean that one team member would only be virtually doing - say majority of the time would be data entry.
PN597
Is it possible to split up part of the foreign payments ledger to one person?---We are getting very, very specific here and I guess from a commercial perspective I don't know if it is feasible.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN598
Well, it is a straight question. Can the foreign payments ledger, given that it has grown compared to what it was before can the foreign payments ledger, or part of it, can a person's ledger form part of the foreign payments?---The foreign payment or our ledger is one ledger. A ledger is called a trial balance. The trial balance is in vendor order.
PN599
No, that is not - can you answer the question?---No. It cannot be split up.
PN600
But you already split up accounts - you previously split up - - -
PN601
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think she answered the question, Mr Ward.
PN602
MR WARD: Okay, thank you.
PN603
So you currently split up the ledger according to - - -?---A to C - - -
PN604
Alphabetical?---Correct.
PN605
But it can't be according to other ways?---No, because we then have to go through each of our customers and work out who is our overseas customer, who is a local customer. There are some of our overseas customers that we don't pay in overseas currency. We have local currency contracts in place with them. So we might be paying with AUD.
PN606
How long was Angela doing the foreign payments register in her last position?---I have only been with the organisation for nine months. I can't tell you that. Angela could possibly best answer that.
PN607
Okay, thank you. In point 25, the last sentence in your statement?---Yes.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN608
You stated:
PN609
Ms Angelis indicated that she agreed to the contents of this document.
PN610
?---Yes.
PN611
How did she indicate that agreement?---In speaking to her, asking her whether or not the role defined or the role spec that I gave her if that was any different to what she was doing. She said, no, the only difference being that she wasn't looking after overseas customers and what was required of her was nothing different to what she was previously undertaking.
PN612
If I can take you to point 26?---Yes.
PN613
You describe a meeting on 9 May?---Yes.
PN614
And the last two or the second last sentence - - -?---Starting with what?
PN615
"During the course" - - -?---Yes.
PN616
You state that the company needed to employ additional staff, is that correct?---Sorry, what point are we looking at, 26?
PN617
Well, my question is did - on 9 May did you state that the company needed to employ additional staff?---Where - sorry, I am trying to work out in what context you are asking so where are you reading from, please?
PN618
I am ready from point 26?---Correct.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN619
And you are describing a meeting on 9 May and you are stating that the company needed to employ additional staff, in the second last sentence in that point?---Second last sentence. Begins with - is it, "During the course of the meeting"?
PN620
Yes?---"Angela asked" - - -
PN621
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, that is the sentence, Ms Mokdessi?---Sorry, what was that?
PN622
That is the sentence that Mr - - -?---Yes, I am saying that the role is not being made redundant. If anything - - -
PN623
MR WARD: That wasn't my question?---Yes.
PN624
The question was did you state that the company needed to employ additional staff?---Yes, because when Angela went on leave the role was only - the team only consisted of two and a half people. The team is now three and a half people. There is the additional staff.
PN625
Are you aware that around that time, and including in this Commission, the company stated to Miriam Mahoney, who also works in accounts payable or who used to - - -?---Yes.
PN626
- - - that there was no work available?---The additional staff - - -
PN627
This was the previous case that was in the Commission?---Yes. The additional staff that I am referring to is Angela went on leave. Her role prior to going on leave was a part-time role. In back-filling while Angela was on leave we actually got someone in a full-time basis, on a contract basis, sorry, but a full-time role and that is the additional staff that I am referring to.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN628
So why was the company telling Miriam Mahoney that there was no work available?---I believe Angela went on leave some 15 months ago so - - -
PN629
No, but this conversation happened at the same time the company was coming to this Commission stating - - -?---Yes. During the course - can I just - during the course of the meeting Ms Angelis asked whether the company would offer her a redundancy package and I advised her that her role was not being made redundant and in fact the company needed to employ additional staff. The additional staff being Ms Elissa Awty and Elissa Awty was hired on a full-time basis, not on a part-time basis which is what Angela went on leave for.
PN630
Well, I think I have made the point there. Further on to point number 27 you refer to sometime after 9 May Ms Angelis was requested - in the second sentence, sorry, third sentence you state:
PN631
Ms Angelis requested hours of 9 am to 3 pm three days per week.
PN632
?---Mm.
PN633
Is it not true that what was offered was also a 7.30 am to 9 am start?---No, that was only offered later on and I believe when you, when we had the meeting with you on 13 May.
PN634
Well, I can't make statements, can I?
PN635
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, Mr Ward.
PN636
MR WARD: Now if I can just take you to the statement just above - the sentence above the dot points, you state:
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN637
After this meeting I asked two members of the accounts payable team, Ms Wall and Ms Jajesnica, whether the fourth member of the team would be required to work until 4.40 pm.
PN638
?---Mm.
PN639
And you state that:
PN640
Ms Wall and Ms Jajesnica replied that -
PN641
and then you have listed several dot points and then in point 28 you state that:
PN642
This was confirmed by Ms Awty.
PN643
?---The following day.
PN644
When did they say that to you?---It would have had to have been after - I would say it would have to be after 4.30 because Alicja finishes at 4.30. However, taking into consideration that Alicja has kids and I know that they were sick for a while so she may have left early that day. So it was on the day of our meeting which was 13 May and as soon as we came downstairs I went and spoke with the team.
PN645
Do you realise that Julie Minnette showed this point number 27 to Alicja and Elissa?---Yes.
PN646
And they both told her this morning that what you have written here is not true?---I will again swear on the Bible to say that I went down and asked the team, after our discussion, and I will again swear on the Bible to say that that is what the team members told me.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN647
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Ward, I think I have addressed these ones. In my view they are hearsay anyway and I don't intend to put much weight upon them in respect of the evidence of either side.
PN648
MR WARD: Okay. Can I just move on to the points you made in regard to Link Recruitment at 28 and 29?---Yes.
PN649
What other options do you have for - when you are short-staffed in the area to have additional people in? You mentioned recruiting somebody for four hours per day but what other options do you have?---This was what the agency - I asked whether or not - what our chances would be of getting someone for an hour for three days a week. They said that the minimum that part-time staff look for is four hours and realistically there would be no way that you could get someone to work the hour.
PN650
No, my question was what other options do you have besides the one you put forward there?---What other options? Contract staff from various agencies, relying on resources of people that may have previously worked at the organisation as we are currently with Vicki and realistically, I guess, if none of those two are available you would have to say that the work would fall behind. So there is no other option.
PN651
So you are saying it is not possible to re-align roles or recruit additional staff internally or - - -?---But the team, Trev, has grown from two and a half people to three and a half people. Are you saying that we should recruit another person because one person needs to finish - - -
PN652
No, I am just saying that - - -
PN653
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think it is Mr Ward asking the questions and you are answering?---Yes.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN654
That is the way the system works?---Well - yes.
PN655
MR WARD: Did you not recruit somebody for a day to catch up on the filing?---That was just for a day, correct. Or didn't recruit, we have got a temp staff member in.
PN656
Thanks. I will just go to point number 31, just trying to move along. You refer to what Mr Whitley told you?---Yes.
PN657
In regards - - -?---And an e-mail that I was copied in on.
PN658
Okay. Which departments did Mr Whitley ask?---HR and he asked the HR, or one of the HR managers at Parkville, Julie Todaro, and her colleague, I think it is Brendan McClelland at Broady, for them to go and advise of any roles that they know of or are coming up at both sites.
PN659
Why did you leave making that request till 29 May when clearly Angela had indicated that the hours of work that she required a long time prior to that?---No, Angela only - it had only got to this stage quite recently. This was one further avenue that Grant thought that we needed to explore that we hadn't explored.
PN660
My question was why wasn't that avenue taken earlier because - - -?---Because we had hoped that there would be some kind of resolution.
PN661
In other words the company was not prepared to make - - -?---No, the company is flexible in the sense that we have - we are proposing to reduce the hours to 9 to 4 for a period of - - -
PN662
No, can you just - it would assist everybody if we just - - -?---Certainly.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN663
The question was why wasn't that request made earlier?---Because it was an avenue that hadn't been explored previously and we thought let us try this avenue.
PN664
Okay. Do you think that if that request had been made several weeks ago when Angela first indicated what her hours of work should be that it would have a greater chance of success?---No, and I don't believe that there has been any roles that fit in with the hours that Angela is looking for that have been advertised.
PN665
I will just take you to point number 34. Which jobs in finance can be created over a longer timeframe?---Finance or accounts payable?
PN666
Well, accounts payable and finance or is accounts payable as one part of finance?---Which jobs can be created over a longer period of - - -
PN667
Can be completed - in earlier testimony you have already stated there is a number of sub-components of the finance payable role that can be completed over a longer timeframe. I am just wondering if - so really that the question would go to the other parts of the finance division which Angela has appropriate skills. One that comes to mind which you have already mentioned was the American Express reconciliation?---No, that is currently being undertaken by an employee.
PN668
I realise that?---Yes.
PN669
I am not saying - my question isn't jobs that don't exist that are brand new but my question is what functions are undertaken over a longer timeframe than finance?---Nothing springs to mind. We are dynamic, we need to ensure that work is done in a regular manner.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN670
No, if you just answer the question. So you are saying there is nothing that can be done - - -?---At this point in time, Trev, no.
PN671
Can you tell me how Angela's proposed hours will affect the team's productivity, efficiency and morale?---We have finally got up to a level that is deemed to be acceptable. We don't want that to decrease. We don't want employees to feel that they are stressed and that they have got added pressure in meeting deadlines and I guess everything else that would have been discussed earlier.
PN672
Will Angela be providing additional resources to what is currently in place?---We currently have three and a half people or team members plus a team leader. Angela will be part of that three and a half team members.
PN673
You currently have somebody working 16 hours a week who is finishing up when Angela is due to recommence. Angela is, according to the proposed hours - - -?---And as I have mentioned - - -
PN674
Angela will be working a number of hours additional. Will that - given that you have someone with greater skill who will be working a greater number of hours will that assist the team's productivity, efficiency and morale?---Trev, it is not just a matter of the hours that we work, it is what we are doing there. Part of the AP team, we have one person on a nine-day fortnight. That person does work the extra hours to have that rostered day off but we are still - it doesn't stop or preclude any calls coming in that the other team members in the department are fielding that day.
PN675
Can you answer the question?---Yes.
**** LEILA MOKDESSI XXN MR WARD
PN676
If you have say X number of hours of three or four people providing a service and you have someone with more skill come into the team with greater hours coverage is it reasonable to say that that would assist efficiency, given you have also said that earlier on that there were a number of tasks which can be done in the morning in the area?---And there are a number of tasks that can be done only in the afternoon. The skill-set, I am sure Angela has got a greater skill-set but what we are talking about here is that we have one person who is assisting the team that is doing only one part - - -
PN677
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Ms Mokdessi, it will or it won't impact upon the efficiency?---I think in Angela finishing one hour earlier I think it will impact.
PN678
So it will be a lesser level of efficiency even though you have a greater number of hours potentially, is what you are putting to me?---And it is not the matter of hours, it is what we are actually doing in the afternoon. Someone may sit at their desk for ten hours. It doesn't mean that they are achieving the same level of efficiency as someone that is in for five.
PN679
MR WARD: Thank you.
PN680
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Mr Ward.
PN681
MR WARD: Deputy President.
PN682
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Whitley.
PN683
MR WHITLEY: I have no further questions.
PN684
PN685
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Look, I am going to adjourn this until 11 am on Monday morning. The reason that I am going to adjourn till 11 am on Monday morning is I am going to direct the parties into some discussions with a view to trying one final time to get a resolution of this matter. I am conscious of the fact that a decision that I might make may be something that one or both of the parties may not want to live with and this really does represent a final chance. So you are here now, although it is late, and you may be able to have some discussions now or alternatively you may be able to arrange to come into this Commission earlier and have some discussions prior to.
PN686
MS MOKDESSI: Sorry, I actually have to - - -
PN687
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, are you appearing, Ms Mokdessi? You are - - -
PN688
MR WHITLEY: I had better say this, sorry to interrupt, but Ms Mokdessi will be unavailable on Monday and that was the point of discussing - - -
PN689
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I am not suggesting that Ms Mokdessi's presence would necessarily be required. I am simply directing - that is something that the company will have to make a determination. I am simply directing the parties to have further discussions with the aim of resolving the matter. It is my view that it would be far better resolved by the parties than imposing a solution that neither party at the end of the day might like. Now to the extent that it is unsuccessful then we will reconvene at 11 am on Monday morning and I will hear submissions. Amongst those submissions I would like the parties to address me on what they believe the circumstance that should pertain under the award, and I refer the parties to 26.12, the part-time clause of the award:
PN690
In the absence of agreement by the parties -
PN691
and I would also refer the parties to 26.12.3, because it seems to me that the award envisages a circumstance where part-time may be worked. It also envisages a circumstance where the parties agree on the way in which that part-time work should take place and in the absence of agreement I would like the parties to put to me what their view is of what should happen. It would seem to me also, and I will just say this as a comment I guess on the evidence that has been put to date, and I put it no higher than that, it seems to me that there is fertile ground for further discussions between the parties on this matter and on that basis I would suggest very strongly to the parties that they don't waste that opportunity. The matter is adjourned until 11 am on Monday morning.
ADJOURNED UNTIL MONDAY, 3 JUNE 2002 [5.24pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
JULIE ANNE MINNETTE, SWORN PN130
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS COOPER PN130
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WHITLEY PN152
WITNESS WITHDREW PN186
EXHIBIT #A1 WITNESS STATEMENT OF J. MINNETTE PN197
ANGELA ANGELIS, AFFIRMED PN233
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS COOPER PN233
EXHIBIT #A2 WITNESS STATEMENT OF A. ANGELIS PN238
EXHIBIT #A3 DOCUMENT HEADED, MEETING, THURSDAY, 9 MAY 2002 PN256
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WHITLEY PN276
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS COOPER PN339
WITNESS WITHDREW PN347
LEILA MOKDESSI, SWORN PN351
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WHITLEY PN351
EXHIBIT #R1 WITNESS STATEMENT OF L. MOKDESSI PN363
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD PN417
WITNESS WITHDREW PN685
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