C2002/3058, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 2472 (3 July 2002)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N VT04563
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT WATSON

C2002/3058

CARLTON & UNITED BREWERIES

and

AUSTRALIAN LIQUOR, HOSPITALITY
AND MISCELLANEOUS WORKERS UNION

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the
Act of a dispute re refusal to commence a
work trial regarding proposed new work
arrangements

MELBOURNE

10.05 AM, WEDNESDAY, 19 JUNE 2002

PN1

MS J. BARNESBY: With me is MR B. RICHARDSON appearing for Carlton & United Breweries in the matter.

PN2

MR T. VEENENDAAL: I appear for the Australian Liquor, Hospitality and Miscellaneous Workers Union. Appearing with me today is MR J. WEISSMAN and MR D. FOUNTAIN.

PN3

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Ms Barnesby.

PN4

MS BARNESBY: Thank you, your Honour. I need to probably give you a bit of background information first to give some sense to what the dispute is about. CUB currently, at the Abbotsford brewery site, is undertaking a number of projects relating to the implementation of some new technology. Two of these major projects actually are occurring in our brewing and filtration area. One of them - - -

PN5

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: In your what, sorry?

PN6

MS BARNESBY: Two of the projects are occurring in our brewing and filtration work area.

PN7

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN8

MS BARNESBY: One of the projects we titled Project Delta and that has been an upgrade of our filtration system. The other project is a project we titled Project Odyssey and that is currently an upgrade of our brewing system. The matter that is the subject of the dispute at the moment is in relation to Project Delta. Project Delta involved the re-development of the filter room at the Abbotsford brewery. This project involved the installation of new technology that has resulted in many of the functions that were actually either semi-automated or manual actually now being fully automated and no longer performed.

PN9

What I have actually done, and I have got a number of pictures here today that might - I will tender because it will actually give you a diagrammatic representation of what we are actually talking about.

PN10

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, very well.

EXHIBIT #B1 THREE SHEETS

PN11

MS BARNESBY: Just to take you through, your Honour, is that the first one is titled Filter Room Operator and to the left-hand side of the arrows is what the filter, what the technology looked like pre the upgrade. So as you can see in the top photo we actually have a semi-automated filtration control panel. If you follow the arrow through you now see that the control panel has actually become part of the terminals and you see a screen dump of one of the screens that - the filter overview control screen that would appear on the computer screen. So rather than people operating it as per the left-hand side they now operate the filter jets as per the right-hand side.

PN12

If you go down to the bottom photo we used to have a situation where there was manual weighing and mixing of ingredients in the left-hand side. We now have a situation in the right-hand side where it is now automated.

PN13

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN14

MS BARNESBY: And you can see a screen dump of - showing the various ingredients and actually the ingredients are now controlled automatically through that, through the system, except the two middle ones. There is a little bit of a manual intervention there where they have to mix powder and that is put into the two containers but the actual dosing is controlled automatically. So that is one of the upgrades. The next one, we had manual connections and valves on the left-hand side and these were great big tanks with some swing vents on the front of them and they used to be manually moved by an operator in order to draw beer from different tanks.

PN15

Now what has happened on the right-hand side all those things have gone. There is new technology has come in that is controlled again through - controlled automatically through the system that has actually come in and a whole lot of the bulk equipment that was in there has now gone and the equipment that is now in there is a lot less than what you would have seen before. Then we have - the bottom left-hand photo is the manual transfer of beer to packaging. That has now all changed and as you can see on the right-hand side it is quite different and again controlled automatically.

PN16

The next one which we may refer to probably in discussions is just an overview of the filtration work area and we will talk about that with respect to what we are talking about, what the issue is about around work trials. So if we could leave that to one side at the moment.

PN17

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN18

MS BARNESBY: But hopefully the first two just gave you some pictorial representation of what we are talking about. Over the past two years a number of changes have occurred and that has resulted in - to date 11 redundancies have actually taken place, where 11 people have actually taken redundancies. We currently still in the filtration work area have 22 people and the company's ultimate position with respect to the implementation of the new technology is we see that there is a need for five people per shift and we do a three shift operation. So that will be 15 people plus an additional two people that would cover leave and so forth in the area.

PN19

The position the union has put to us broadly is that they would see that there should be seven people per shift, and that would be six plus one person per shift to cover training and so forth. So the difference is really - I think it is about - it is about one employee per shift plus one leave cover. That is really where the difference between the union and the company is as we can understand. It is important to point out that - in that what has occurred to date is all the people that have left the work area in filtration have taken voluntary redundancies. Well, some of the voluntary decided to actually move to another work area.

PN20

We are now in a situation where there is no more volunteers from that particular work area left. Everyone in there would prefer to stay in filtration. Your Honour, I am not sure if you have a copy of the current enterprise agreement?

PN21

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I do on another file.

PN22

MS BARNESBY: I have a spare copy here.

PN23

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.

PN24

MS BARNESBY: Just to ensure you are aware, at appendix B of that particular document is contained the actual redundancy agreements that are in place between the company and the various unions. In addition, your Honour, about - it would have been three years ago, the LHMU and the company reached an agreement with respect to a redundancy process that would cover the situation if we didn't have enough volunteers from a work area as to how any redundancies would be handled. I tender a copy of that.

PN25

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.

EXHIBIT #B2 REDUNDANCY PROCESS

PN26

MS BARNESBY: And I won't go into that now, your Honour, but it will go into part of the - no doubt part of discussions. With respect to the situation that exists is we believe there is more redundancies that need to come out and that is the company's position. From the company's perspective there will be a selection process and that will be a clear and transparent process and if a person who actually is - the company believes should be moved out of the area disagrees with the decision then we would review that in accordance with the process we have established with the union.

PN27

We have already, in respect to this particular project we have undertaken four work trials and what we are looking at now is commencing a fifth work trial. However, with respect to the commencement of the fifth work trial that is where we currently have an issue. The company has had numerous discussions with the union on the commencement of that work trial and at the moment the union are saying, no, the work trial is not going ahead because of some issues that they see are outstanding. What we do when we actually commence a work trial, your Honour, we actually have a work trial document and I have got a copy of that that I will tender today.

EXHIBIT #B3 WORK TRIAL DOCUMENT

PN28

MS BARNESBY: As you can see on the work trial document the current manning in the area is seven per shift. This work trial would move to six per shift. The change is that we have recently upgraded the technology in relation to the K cellar operation which is the transfer of beer, the pasteurisation of beer that goes to our draft operations area which is where we actually, is the keg beer, and we have automated that and the result what we see is that there is a re-organisation of functions that would result in one less position in the work area. With respect to the overall project the company also says that there is a further work trial to be completed, a work trial six, and that would involve the reduction in the number of filter-room operators, maltex operators. Where there is currently three per shift, it is the company's view there should be two per shift.

PN29

So after the completion of this work trial it is the company's position that a further work trial needs to be undertaken. Just to give you a history of the work trial issue within the brewery, work trials were actually a suggestion and request by the union in relation to situations such as that we are encountering now where the company is introducing new technology that results in a work re-organisation and to date those work trials have worked successfully. However it has now reached a stage with respect to this particular project where, for the first time, we are running into significant problems. From the company's perspective the only thing that differs now between what happened in previous issues with work trials, we have always had a situation where we have had all these volunteers that want to go and the work trials have proceeded and the work re-organisations have actually been implemented.

PN30

This is the first time that we have actually run into a situation from our memory where we haven't had sufficient volunteers from the work area that want to go and we have exhausted that. Now we are into the situation of getting into a stage where we have to move people from an area they don't want to be - they want to be into potentially into another area. It is important to point out that we have enough volunteers in other parts of the organisation to take the redundancies the company says that should be happening and so the people that would move out of the filtration area wouldn't be losing their jobs with CUB, they would just be moving into another work area.

PN31

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And that involves, what, three persons in work trial five?

PN32

MS BARNESBY: In this work trial - in this work trial we would say there would be three persons. Another work trial - there are currently 22 people in the area, your Honour. We say there should ultimately be 17 so there would be three in this work trial plus another two in the final work trial and that would take it down to our proposed numbers of 17. It is interesting to point out, your Honour, that when we first commenced with the Project Delta upgrade it was the company's belief that when we looked at the way in which the filtration operated in other breweries it would be reasonable that that area could be operated by three persons per shift.

PN33

So through the process the company's position has moved to a position that we see the number, the reasonable number at this time is to be five per shift, plus an additional two people overall that cover training and leave etcetera.

PN34

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN35

MS BARNESBY: As I said, your Honour, over the past few months there have been a significant number of discussions with the union in relation to the commencement of this work trial. On a number of occasions it appeared we had actually reached agreement and it was actually going to kick off but we reached a stage last Friday where I think it was clearly indicated to us that the work trial that we hoped would have commenced this Monday wasn't going to take off so hence the notification to the Industrial Commission. As we understand it the issue that arose at the last minute on Friday related to overtime that is worked prior to the commencement of the night shift which starts at 11 pm on a Sunday night.

PN36

The reason for that is that in commencing - most of our packaging lines commence at about 11, 10, 11 o'clock. In order to get the packaging lines up and running at that particular time at least one operator has to come in early to actually get the system running so that the - we can provide beer to the packaging lines when the packaging lines commence operation. Now there has been an arrangement in place that two operators have come in for four hours overtime prior to the commencement of it. From the company's perspective we believe that you could actually bring the operators in for an hour prior to the commencement and you could actually do all the work that needs to be done with respect to commencing the operation of the packaging lines, one hour prior to the commencement of the shift and they would get all the work done.

PN37

That appears to be where the issue is. The union is of the view that the four hours they currently come in could pose an unreasonable amount of overtime and when we look at the figures of overtime that are worked in an area two people coming and doing 16 hours prior to the - or eight hours prior to the commencement of shift per week represents about two per cent of the overtime that is worked in the work area at the moment. So it is not much overtime when you look at the issue of unreasonableness but, as I said, that work could actually be done in an hour prior to the commencement of shift in order to ensure the beer was provided to the packaging lines.

PN38

There is one exception to that and that is if we happen to be running Carlton Cold, an operator would need to come in four hours prior to the commencement of the packaging lines to ensure that that beer could be provided to our main packaging lines to start operation at the commencement of shift. It is just a different type of beer and it takes - - -

PN39

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So what is the issue there? That as to the number of hours of overtime that are required in the trial or - - -

PN40

MS BARNESBY: Well, I think that is an explanation that maybe Mr Veenendaal will provide on behalf of the union. But as indicated from our perspective the request that people come in to work a small amount of overtime prior to the commencement of shift in order to get everything running so the packaging lines commence operations is not unreasonable. The union have a view that if you are running a work trial you can't run a work trial with overtime because it would create an unfair result which we have difficulty understanding given the work that we are saying is relevant - the work that has to be done prior to the commencement has to be done prior to the commencement otherwise we have a delay in the commencement of our packing lines.

PN41

There is also some overtime that is worked at the end of the week when everything shuts down on the Friday night. There is two people that tend to stay back to do overtime to clean up the area and that at the moment is also proposed to be part of the work trial. Again it gets down to the issue the union is of the view that for some reason, again in relation to the work trial, you can't have overtime. But this is a practice that has happened for some time and it is necessary. This work actually can't be done until the lines are shut down and it is a practice that has been in place for some time. So we see it is appropriate that there is a need for some overtime before the commencement and after the commencement because of the way in which the brewery operates.

PN42

With respect to what we are looking for today, your Honour, is we want a commitment from the union for the work trial to commence as of Monday. We would seek that the Commission monitor the work trial with the parties reporting back at the end of the work trial. Given that there are some - no doubt from our perspective if the work trial is successful I think there potentially may be some issues with respect to the selection process and we would ask the commitment from the union there is no bans or limitations placed by the union during the period of the work trial. The company really, your Honour, is in a situation that unless we can get a commitment to do the work trial - as I said the work trials were a suggestion, a request, by the union.

PN43

The company have in the implementation of new technology agreed to that. We have reached a stage with respect to this one that if we can't get a sensible commitment to continue with the process that has been in place for some time the company will be implementing new rosters and those new rosters we will be implementing will be around the five persons per shift and we don't want to go down that path, we would prefer to go down the path that has been the path we have gone down for a significant period of time but we are at a stage where the issues that have been put up by the union we see to be unreasonable and simply as a means of trying to delay the work trial and what we would like to see is that today we can get some agreement that they can commence and we go ahead in the manner in which we have done the other work trials. That is really where we sit today, your Honour.

PN44

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well, thank you. Mr Veenendaal.

PN45

MR VEENENDAAL: Thanks, your Honour. Firstly, by way of clarification I would suggest, your Honour, that we have some difficulties with the concept that the company is promoting that we oppose the work trial. We do not oppose the work trial. There may be some issues or some substantive issues about how the work trial is conducted and there may be some difficulties with understandings upon which the work trial should be predicated in terms of hours of work, however there is no in principle opposition to work trials. I think that is adequately demonstrated, your Honour, by the fact that this is in fact the fifth work trial that has occurred in the filtration area in the last two years and further work trials are contemplated as you may see in CUB3.

PN46

Under the note there about a third of the way down the paper at CUB3 there is in fact a contemplation for a sixth work trial in the area.

PN47

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN48

MR VEENENDAAL: So we have in fact participated in the previous four work trials so I think there is some difficulties in the company justifying an argument that we in fact oppose this work trial or any work trial for that matter. As I say we are prepared to have some discussions about how this work trial is in fact predicated and what it is based on but I would suggest to the company, and submit to the Commission, that we do have in principle difficulties with work trials which are in fact a fait accompli or shams and I would suggest that the documents themselves seem to indicate that this is a bit of a sham.

PN49

Ms Barnesby, in her submissions, has already indicated what the position or what the outcome is going to be from the work trial. That is that there will be reductions from the current arrangement where there are 22 people working in a three shift rotation to a post-trial "arrangement" of 15 people on the three shifts with two of these covering people and it is noteworthy, your Honour, that in CUB3 it in fact already determines what the outcome of the sixth work trial is going to be: work trial number six will involve moving from three to two filter-room operators per shift. So I think there is some difficulty in coining these new arrangements as work trials when the company is already telling us what the arrangement is going to be.

PN50

Not only does the company say that but the company then says that if we are not prepared to co-operate with the commencement of the work trial on Monday the company has just told us that they will be implementing a new shift roster arrangement with five people per shift. So I think there are some real difficulties which seem to have been conceded by the company this morning in terms of its own attitude to the so-called work trials and we are not prepared to engage in arrangements which are shams, which mean that the company is simply purporting to conduct trials, whereas the company in effect has already determined what the end result of this so-called trial will be.

PN51

One of the key issues that we have with respect to the proposed trial, your Honour, is that in our submission the trial arrangements and the end arrangements post trial will involve the working of unreasonable overtime by our members. Members in the filtration area currently average between around about four to ten hours per week in overtime. What the new arrangements will require is a rotational arrangement for start-up of the filtration area. Whereas the current shift span of hours commences at 11 pm and the shift finishes at 7 am, what will be required is that the start-up - as a result of the start-up process once a week at least two employees will be required to come in four hours early at 7 pm instead of 11 pm and that is a regular arrangement, not an ad hoc or unusual arrangement, whereas those people will need to come in, two of the seven will need to come in and start up the operations and in addition to that, your Honour, at the close down of the filtration area, which would normally happen on a Friday afternoon, our members will be required to come in for an eight hour shift on a sixth day in order to perform the shut down.

PN52

As I am instructed, your Honour, all of the crew would be required to come in and do the shut down so that is seven 7s, if you like. There is no rotational arrangement available to, in terms of rosters at that point because all the crew members will be required to come in and work an 8-hour overtime shift to close down the filtration area. So what - - -

PN53

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What is the current arrangement for start-up and close down?

PN54

MS BARNESBY: That is the current - the current arrangement, your Honour, is four hours. They come in four hours before the commencement of shift and they - the current arrangement is they do stay back on overtime at the end of the - ceasing the afternoon shift on a Friday.

PN55

MR VEENENDAAL: If you just bear with me, your Honour.

PN56

MS BARNESBY: Your Honour, a lot of the shut down arrangements depend on when packaging shut down as well. If packaging run right through it could mean that, yes, there is additional overtime. If packaging shut down - do their shut down early then it means there would be less. It is a variable issue at the end of the week.

PN57

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Veenendaal, what is your understanding?

PN58

MR VEENENDAAL: Well, I am instructed that in terms of the close down the crew is required to turn up in its entirety in the close down. The issue that would come to light here, your Honour, is in terms of reductions in numbers which are proposed post trial. Unreasonableness arises in the context that the company is suggesting, in the ultimate, that there will be three people doing these close downs rather than six or seven people and that is, in the end, as a result of work trial six and at this point they are proposing that five people do the shut down. So it is a work load, a work load factor which is increased as a result of less people performing functions in terms of the shut down.

PN59

Nevertheless and notwithstanding that, your Honour, since I have come into this process only recently it is our submission, from the union's point of view, that overtime being worked in the area is unreasonable. It is as simple as that. It is unreasonable for people to be performing regular overtime at those levels whereas I think that the proper arrangements that should be looked at by the company are rotating shifts where people are required to come in at 7 pm and finish at an appropriate time and where people are rotated through rosters over the six day period, which may involve the shut down as well.

PN60

Now I can't see for the life of me why that is unreasonable for us to request that and I also can't see why it is unreasonable for the union to be requesting that work in the area be predicated on the current agreement entitlement of a 35 hour week. One of the things about reduced standard hours, your Honour, in terms of arguments in favour of reduced standard hours and certainly during the period when unions were out there campaigning for a 35 hour week was to enable employees to enjoy greater leisure time through reduced standard hours at work. What we find here - - -

PN61

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Am I to take it that the position of the union is that it would seek that the company explore shift arrangements which remove the need for overtime?

PN62

MR VEENENDAAL: Absolutely. To the extent that overtime becomes reasonable, your Honour, and what we say is that the present arrangement in terms of standard overtime arrangements where people cover a position through overtime is not reasonable and I think that it is totally reasonable for the union to be requesting that alternative arrangements be examined and investigated to enable the proper constitution of roster and shift arrangements to enable the work to be properly covered. We have difficulties accepting, in an area where overtime currently is at the edge of the envelope in terms of the quantum of overtime worked, we have difficulty contemplating arrangements where the company is foreshadowing further reductions in numbers in terms of the shift roster arrangements.

[10.34am]

PN63

We think that that is an onerous burden for our members to bear and it is not one we are prepared to accept at this point of time, your Honour. There are alternatives here. At the end of the day I see this more as a de-manning exercise and a cost-cutting exercise under the guise of technological change and there are some difficulties for us in that.

PN64

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You are suggesting there is no requirement - there is no ability to reduce manning levels given the technological change?

PN65

MR VEENENDAAL: It is contemplated by the agreement, your Honour, but it is - the agreement doesn't state that as a result of technological change redundancies must occur. The agreement simply contemplates that the introduction of new technology may, for operational reasons, lead to terminations for those operational reasons and there are processes put in place including negotiations pursuant to the introduction of change clause in the agreement to discuss those issues and in the event redundancies do occur then there is a redundancy clause which deals with terminations for operational reasons. However the agreement doesn't state that that is a natural result of technological change.

PN66

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No. It would be a matter of assessment on the particular facts.

PN67

MR VEENENDAAL: Indeed. Now it is our submission, your Honour, that exhibit CUB1 is insufficient for your Honour to fully understand the complexity of the change and it is our submission that inspections are required. The company has notified, via section 99 of the Workplace Relations Act, an industrial situation which may give rise to a dispute or perhaps an industrial dispute which currently exists between the union and the company in respect to these sham work trials. Now the company has done that and as a result the company is now asking, in terms of relief, for the Commission to oversee this work trial process.

PN68

Now if the Commission is going to become involved, and we have no difficulty with the Commission becoming involved and we are quite happy to - - -

PN69

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, that is not strictly accurate. The company has asked for certain commitments from the union and a process for a report back to the Commission.

PN70

MR VEENENDAAL: As I understand the words that Ms Barnesby used was that she wanted the Commission to be involved in the work trials. Now if I have misrepresented that - - -

PN71

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: By way of report back to the Commission, but in essence what was being sought was certain commitments from the union in terms of implementation of the trial and no bans or limitations with a process for a report back to the Commission.

PN72

MR VEENENDAAL: Well, it is our submission, nevertheless, your Honour, that if the Commission - the matter is properly before the Commission. We are happy for the Commission to become involved - that is our submission, if it is not the company's - and we say that inspections need to be scheduled.

PN73

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: If the Commission is involved it will be initially by way of conciliation. Arbitration would require the consent of both parties under the disputes procedure, wouldn't it?

PN74

MR VEENENDAAL: And I am not suggesting arbitration, your Honour. I would suggest that inspections can occur as part of the Commission's conciliation function. The Commission is better placed - - -

PN75

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Why? It is for the parties to reach an agreement through conciliation. They surely understand the processes.

PN76

MR VEENENDAAL: However the Commission - it is available to the Commission via conciliation to be pro-active in suggesting potential solutions or resolutions to matters that are in dispute between the parties and the Commission would be better placed to do that by way of inspections. Now that is what we suggest; the Commission doesn't have to accept that. It is a submission I make today that inspections should occur. If the Commission decides it doesn't want to be involved with inspections at this time that is up to the Commission to decide, but we are certainly amenable to it.

PN77

Whether the company is amenable to it or not we can hear from them in a moment, but I have no difficulty to adjourning to private conference, your Honour, so we can explore some of these issues but I think the company is going to have to get real about what it expects out of these so-called sham work trials and I think the company is going to have to get real about the union's expectations in relation to reductions in numbers where we say our members are already under significant overtime pressures in the area. So I think that there is an inconsistency between the number - the level of overtime being worked currently and the company's view that further reductions in numbers can occur in the work area.

PN78

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I just want to be absolutely right about this. Is it seriously put by the union that the union would like to explore working arrangements which involve a reduction in overtime levels?

PN79

MR VEENENDAAL: We have no difficulty with that at all, your Honour.

PN80

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, very well.

PN81

MR VEENENDAAL: What we are seeking is a re-organisation of work which would principally involve an arrangement where no reduction in numbers in the area would occur. Now that is the objective that we would like to see as a result of the exercise. Now if that also involves, as a consequence of that, your Honour, a reduction in overtime so be it.

PN82

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN83

MR VEENENDAAL: But the point that I was making - - -

PN84

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I just wanted to be clear about that.

PN85

MR VEENENDAAL: - - - about overtime, your Honour, is that we see there is an internal inconsistency in the argument from the company's point of view where overtime is currently being worked on a standard basis on at least two days a week, whereas at the same time the company seeks reduction in numbers. Now obviously the company relies on this movement from semi-automation to an automated process in terms of the reduction in numbers but there has been no evidence put by the company, save and except for CUB1 which is not evidence and if it is evidence I think it should be given very limited weight, your Honour, to - - -

PN86

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, there is no evidence by way of conciliation. It is not a matter of evidence, it is a matter of a process by which the parties can reach agreement.

PN87

MR VEENENDAAL: But at the same time - yes, I concede that, your Honour, but at the same time the company has made an assertion from the bar table here that technological change has meant a semi-automated process has become an automated process - - -

PN88

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN89

MR VEENENDAAL: - - - which, as a consequence, should result in the reduction of numbers. Now the Commission can accept assertions from advocates if the assertion - - -

PN90

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I don't think that is the basis of tendering of exhibit B1. I understood that to be to assist the Commission as to some understanding of what has occurred and what will occur. In itself I don't think it is intended to be relied upon as evidence of any need for - - -

PN91

MR VEENENDAAL: All right, your Honour. All right, that is fine, your Honour, but what I am clearly saying from our side of the table is that we reject the assertion that the technological change in the filtration area should lead to reductions in numbers.

PN92

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN93

MR VEENENDAAL: So in other words that is contested.

PN94

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN95

MR VEENENDAAL: And the company's view that there should be a reduction in numbers in the area is contested. Now we are prepared to go ahead with a properly founded work trial which is truly a trial and that means criteria are set which are assessed at the end of the trial upon which an evaluation can then be done at the end of the trial which would then determine whether there can be a reduction in numbers. But I would hope that the Commission can see the flaw in a work trial where the company has stood up today and suggested the end result of the work trial in terms of numbers of employees who will be working on the three shifts. That creates some real difficulties - - -

PN96

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But the fact that it is being done through a trial suggests the company is doing what you are seeking. The company has a view - one option is to simply implement it. A work trial is a different approach which suggests the view is being trialed and will be assessed and then presumably - I don't know the history of work trials within the company - jointly reviewed and some conclusion drawn from it. I mean if the company - - -

PN97

MR VEENENDAAL: That would be wonderful if that was the process, your Honour, and we are quite amenable to entertaining a process like that but that is not what the company said.

PN98

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, if it weren't the process why wouldn't the company simply implement the, what it views to be the appropriate manning levels?

PN99

MR VEENENDAAL: Well, I think the company would have difficulty doing that because our members may have something to say about that, your Honour. I can assure you if there were no union members at the site that is exactly what would have happened. The reality is there is 100 per cent union membership at the site and I think the company knows it does that at its peril. In addition to that, your Honour, there are some requirements in terms of the statutory provisions which regulate the site which compel the company to talk to us about these things.

PN100

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, what has occurred with trials number one to four?

PN101

MR VEENENDAAL: I have no instructions about that, your Honour.

PN102

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Something has been trialed and presumably the trial has been given effect - some review undertaken and some outcome reached.

PN103

MR VEENENDAAL: That may be the case, your Honour. That is not the matter that is before the Commission.

PN104

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well - - -

PN105

MR VEENENDAAL: I am happy to get instructions, your Honour, if your Honour - - -

PN106

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I am just wondering why you think work trial number five would be any different. It is a process being undertaken by the company, as I understand it, at the suggestion of the union, trialing rather than simply implementing a decision.

PN107

MR VEENENDAAL: I have no instructions about trials number one to four. I am not sure if they were successful or otherwise. I can get instructions or we can talk about it in private conference, your Honour, if you wish to explore that further but the matter before the Commission is trial number five.

PN108

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, and I just can't understand - - -

PN109

MR VEENENDAAL: And there is a dispute - there is a dispute about trial number five.

PN110

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I understand that. I can't understand the view that the trial is a sham in the sense that it serves no purpose, other than to implement reduced numbers.

PN111

MR VEENENDAAL: I am not suggesting it serves - I didn't say it serves no purpose, your Honour, but what I am suggesting, and I say again, that the company has stood up today and indicated what the end result of the trial is going to be in terms of manning levels, and I pardon the language - - -

PN112

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN113

MR VEENENDAAL: - - - in the filtration area.

PN114

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN115

MR VEENENDAAL: Now I have some difficulties with that, your Honour. Now, I have no instructions about the trial in terms of it being a sham, but as the advocate here I am making the submission to the company that in my view, having heard what the company has said today, I think it is a sham where the company delivers the sledgehammer blow before the Commission today before the trial has even commenced. Now surely a properly constituted trial involves the setting of criteria and an objective assessment at the end of the trial based on the results of the trial. How can the company foreshadow - - -

PN116

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, isn't it reflected in the trial documentation under consultation:

PN117

Explain the work requirements, achieve agreement as to how the work is to be done, identify issues requiring action and resolution. Regular review sessions will be held with personnel. Any problems encountered will be fully discussed with a view to resolution.

PN118

I mean that - - -

PN119

MR VEENENDAAL: Where are you, your Honour?

PN120

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This is on the second page of the work trial - the guidelines.

PN121

MR VEENENDAAL: Yes.

PN122

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Presumably this is what distinguishes a trial from the company simply implementing a decision it believes is the appropriate decision.

PN123

MR VEENENDAAL: The words sound very reasonable, your Honour, apart from the fact that there are no - there is no criteria, upon which an assessment would occur, set. I think that is an important issue, but I think what I am submitting to your Honour is that what the company says today in terms of the levels of personnel at the end of the trial flies in the face of the words you have just read out from the guideline document, your Honour.

PN124

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, well, we might hear more about that later.

PN125

MR VEENENDAAL: But it may be appropriate simply to adjourn into private conference, your Honour, and we can explore these matters further at that time.

PN126

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN127

MR VEENENDAAL: But in terms of the undertakings the company seeks I am not prepared to give any undertakings at this point, your Honour. I am prepared to have discussions.

PN128

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well. Ms Barnesby.

PN129

MS BARNESBY: Thank you, your Honour. We don't object to going into conference but there is a couple of points I would like to make to start with. It is important to note, your Honour, that work trial document we are looking at has been consistent all the way along and is consistent with work trial documents that have been used on other projects. In fact, Mr Richardson, who is to my right, was heavily involved in the work trials that have occurred in the past and indicates to me that that work trial document was the document actually proposed by the union. So it was put together by the union and is one that the company have adopted throughout these Project Delta work trials and also other work trials.

PN130

With respect to the union's comments on overtime, your Honour, I would like to point out again that what we said is that with respect to the implementation of this work trial we could actually with respect to the overtime required prior to the commencement of shift, the work that needs to be done could be done with one hours overtime prior to the commencement of shift unless we are running Carlton Cold. The current four hour arrangements in place was actually an arrangement put in place by the union because the union said we will only come in if we get four hours of overtime.

PN131

So the unreasonableness that they are claiming in overtime was actually what the union wanted. From the company's perspective we - if they are saying that is an unreasonable amount, we accept that and what we are saying is that we could easily commence at prior to shift with one hour of overtime. So - and with respect to the overtime at the end of the shift, it is not a constant that they work extra overtime at the end of every shift; it is dependent upon when the packaging line ceases. The other point is that, I think pointed out by yourself, is the company has proposed its position and what we are seeking to trial. We say this is a work re-organisation. The work trial is to test that in accordance with the guidelines. That is what we are about doing.

PN132

But if the union don't want to do that then the company reserves its right that, from a managerial perspective, that we reserve our right to implement work re-organisation if it is appropriate. What we seek to do is always to do it in consultation with the union but at this particular time it is like these unrealistic and unreasonable barriers just keep getting put up and with respect to this work trial in order to protect situations for other reasons. But given those comments, your Honour, we would have no problems with going into conference.

PN133

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, very well. I will adjourn into conference.

NO FURTHER PROCEEDINGS RECORDED

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #B1 THREE SHEETS PN11
EXHIBIT #B2 REDUNDANCY PROCESS PN26
EXHIBIT #B3 WORK TRIAL DOCUMENT PN28