C2002/2377, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 2612 (11 July 2002)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 4, 60-70 Elizabeth St SYDNEY NSW 2000
DX1344 Sydney Tel:[phone] Fax:[phone]

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DUNCAN

C2002/2377

FINANCE SECTOR UNION OF AUSTRALIA

and

GIO AUSTRALIA LIMITED

Application under section 170LW of the
Act for settlement of a dispute concerning
alleged failure to comply with certain
provisions of the AMP-GIO Enterprise
Agreement 2000

SYDNEY

9.05 AM, THURSDAY, 25 JUNE 2002

Continued from 17.6.02

PN857

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Ms Hannan?

PN858

MS HANNAN: Yes, your Honour, if it please. I might commence by of just giving a brief background to fully illustrate the discussions that have taken place with the parties, if I may. Your Honour, in their briefing papers supplied to Finance Sector Union Suncorp Metway identifies that it plans to re-convert existing GIO branches to Allfinanz sectors. These centres will offer a composition of banking and insurance products, including existing GIO products.

PN859

Your Honour, if I might describe it in a shorthand way, Suncorp Metway identifies the following branches for conversation during the quarter three as the existing GIO branches of Bendigo, Burwood, Charlestown, Frankston, Goulburn, Hobart, Liverpool, Penrith and Woden, at the same time there will be district office closures in Hobart, Liverpool, Mascot, Newcastle, Penrith, Perth North, Perth South, Woden, locations in Parramatta, GIO existing centres will remain at Launceston and branch closures at Batemans Bay, Canberra City, Mascot and Newcastle.

PN860

So, your Honour would see there that at the same time there will be closures of certain branches that they will re-open in Allfinanz capacity. Suncorp Metway has indicated that it will apply the provisions of the AMP/GIO Enterprise Agreement 2000 and the GIO Business Re-structuring and Security of Employment Agreement 1999/2002 but has not applied the transmission provisions that apply in both of those agreements. FSU says that those provisions do apply and that in part, as your Honour is quite aware, why the dispute has come before you.

PN861

Suncorp Metway without prior notice to Finance Sector Union has issued letters of offer which the say a certain proportion have already accepted to come over and work in the Allfinanz Centre on proposed Suncorp Metway conditions. However, when asked by FSU rather, they could not identify how many of those acceptances had been post-Commission proceedings on 27 May. FSU objects to this process on two grounds on the transmission provisions that apply in both agreements and that the conditions that obtain in the Suncorp Metway Staff Certified Agreement 2002 are inferior to the conditions that exist in both AMP/GIO Agreement and the Re-structuring Agreement.

PN862

Your Honour is well aware that Suncorp Metway initially agreed to extend the date for signing of those letters to 30 June 2002 and FSU has attempted to progress issues with Suncorp Metway but to date, it would be fair to say tha the substantive issues concerning the issues that FSU has outlined this morning and the issues surrounding the status of positions at call centres remains unresolved. FSU requested on the last occasion for an extension for persons to sign the letter of offer to 30 July 2002.

PN863

Suncorp Metway has refused, indicating that its business is not an - well, given its expectations to be up and running in terms of opening their Allfinanz Branches. However, your Honour, in further discussions with Suncorp Metway the company has failed to identify when these actual branches will be opening, they've indicated an expectation in July but no firm dates, furthermore, there would appear to be some training that is required of some length, we've heard six weeks and none of that training has commenced. We've further understood that part of that training would indeed be taking place in Queensland.

PN864

To the best of our knowledge there has been no definite progress report in terms of the status of the conversions and underpinning that there has been no discussions with the FSU concerning occupational health and safety obligations that arise under relevant New South Wales legislation. Your Honour, I would tender a copy, if I may, at this point that is appropriate for information purposes of a letter sent to Mr Richard Tanner - - -

PN865

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This is a letter as stated, dated 24 June 2000 to Mr Richard Tanner on behalf of Mr Greg Frost. I will mark it exhibit X1, I'm not confident about the serial of other exhibits.

EXHIBIT #X1 LETTER DATED 24/06/2000 TO MR RICHARD TANNER ON BEHALF OF MR GREG FROST

PN866

MS HANNAN: Thank you, your Honour. That was only handed to Mr Bainbridge, as your Honour will see, yesterday but that was the first opportunity that the parties had met since we were last before you. You will see that it details there quite a consideration of obligations that apply to Suncorp Metway and we say in the process of converting branches to Allfinanz and that part of those obligations must include consultation with the Finance Sector Union as the appropriate representative of workers in those branches.

PN867

Your Honour, for those reasons and in addition, there have been further discussions on the appropriate status to apply to the positions available at call centres, whether they be BAP or AAP but that issue still remains unresolved and we say that also forms part of the issue connected to the Allfinanz branches although I don't want to mislead your Honour. I'm not saying that if we were to solve that, that that would immediately fix the Allfinanz but it is inter-related. FSU has an obligation to go back to members and report developments as they occur and at this point we are no clearer on one issue which may have an impact on the thinking of persons who are making decisions about what to do about their jobs.

PN868

Mr Bainbridge has given me a letter this morning but I've not had an opportunity to consider it. But in any event, it would be fair to say that resolution of that particular issue in terms of the position status for call centres ie, acceptable, alternative or voluntary alternative has not been resolved. Against the backdrop of that, your Honour, I would tender a copy of a communication from Richard Tanner, Human Resources to all GIO staff on 21 June which concerns Suncorp's report to the work-force on its Allfinanz initiatives and also, an advice that there is a question mark about the legal application of the AMP/GIO Enterprise Agreement which has caused further uncertainly for our members and also, a flagging of an intention to commence discussions for a new Enterprise Agreement for employees falling under these agreements.

PN869

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I'll mark the note to all GIO staff from Richard Tanner, General Manager, Human Resources exhibit X2.

EXHIBIT #X2 NOTE TO ALL GIO STAFF FROM RICHARD TANNER, GENERAL MANAGER, HUMAN RESOURCES

PN870

MS HANNAN: Your Honour, if I can just return to the situation of the Allfinanz Centres, it would be fair to say that because of the current confusion for the members in terms of what is happening with the Allfinanz Centres, the position adopted by Suncorp in terms of the legal application of the AMP/GIO Agreement, that there is still, as has been reported to FSU a certain resistance to signing those letters, accepting Suncorp Metway conditions, we note that there has been a letter of offer which states that:

PN871

There is an intention to have uniformity in employment conditions and that there will be no reduction on balance of ...(reads)... when compared to the Suncorp Metway terms and conditions of employment.

PN872

Yet, as I think indicated on the last occasion to your Honour, despite numerous attempts there doesn't seem to be an agreed position between Suncorp Metway and FSU concerning how the Suncorp Metway conditions compare to the AMP/GIO conditions and we say that they are inferior.

PN873

We believe that that is a factual matter, we have indicated to Suncorp namely, on the hours issue alone that at least seven areas in terms of rest breaks where the agreement is inferior.

PN874

It is against what is happening in terms of the company re-structuring, what is happening in terms of these conditions being inferior, that persons are being asked to sign the future arrangements clause in the terms of offer and which is not clear in terms of what it will provide in the future, that persons are resisting. We can say that in terms of some of those sites which were indicated to your Honour earlier in terms of the Allfinanz conversations that are planned.

PN875

I know one particular site in question, Charlestown, has had an issue raised in occupational, health and safety issue there concerning the removal of some asbestos. So there are a number of issues that are occurring simultaneously at this time. As I have indicated we have had some discussions on the call centre positions but they are unresolved, we say that they are linked and we must progress those but it is a little difficult for us to do that on the basis that Suncorp Metway presses that it will not consider extending the date or persons to sign that letter of offer against a backdrop of what we see is that they are not ready and that we have not had our consultations on occupational health and safety and that we can still get no common agreement on how the conditions stack up when they are compared to one another.

PN876

It is on that basis your Honour that we come to the commission this morning to seek a recommendation that employees not be required to sign that letter of offer until the end of July. If your Honour is against me on that primary submission, the secondary position that FSU would seek is that if Suncorp Metway is saying that business concerns that they want to line up their rows and know who is going forward in the Allfinanz so that they can start their training and all the rest of it then there may be some other accommodation whereby that can still occur but the issue of the conditions at least gets put into abeyance for another month while we try and work through these other issues.

PN877

Those would be the submissions of the union at this point, if it pleases.

PN878

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you Ms Hannan. Mr Bainbridge?

PN879

MR BAINBRIDGE: Your Honour we undertook last time we were in this arena to go away and have a look at a couple of issues that we thought were worth exploring with the business, as you may recall. The two issues that we undertook to seek to explore were whether or not there was any opportunity to extend the existing offer date closing off a date around the remaining 11 people who have an offer of Allfinanz and are yet to respond from 30 June to anything beyond that subject to it having a binding impact on the business.

PN880

We also wanted to further explore the opportunities and the options around branch staff being under review that they may be forced to take a role in the call centre. It was with the intent of trying to explore those two things as to whether or not it would help go some part towards resolving the issues that are in front of you in the dispute. We have since had those discussions with the business and we did speak with the FSU yesterday for a bunch of reasons that I will not bore with, we were not able to get together before yesterday.

PN881

I guess in summary, if I may I might just tender this letter that I have given to Deborah this morning, she said she has not had a chance to read it which is quite right. I would probably be just as happy to take you through that if I could, it is probably the most succinct summary at where we got to.

PN882

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will mark the letter of 24 June 2002 to Ms Hannon from Mr Bainbridge exhibit Z1.

EXHIBIT #Z1 LETTER TO MS HANNON FROM MR BAINBRIDGE DATED 24/06/2002

PN883

MR BAINBRIDGE: I guess in summary commissioner if I take you through this we, as I am advising Deborah in this letter:

PN884

The group advises that we cannot extend the offer closing dates beyond ...(reads)... employment offer which is a -

PN885

what we call a VAP which is the terminology being used in the group for a voluntary alternative position which is to say you have a chose to accept or not accept that role without any implications of saying no:

PN886

The remaining 11 people will be required to reply by 30 June just as the 34 people in the balance in that total number that were offered have already done so.

PN887

Beyond this date given that it will impact, our plans to role out the branch network through the Sydney area and community we will then have to look at alternative recruitment options to fill the remaining unfilled roles of which even if all 11 reply in the affirmative between now and 30 June there are some roles that will still need to be recruited for and filled in another way in order to fill the full complement that we need in a branch when it opens. So to the extent that by 30 June we then need to know the full extent of roles that we have not been able to fill through providing this redeployment option to GIO staff so that we can then go ahead and recruit elsewhere where we need to.

PN888

In an effort to provide the employees with reasonable options ...(reads)... familiar with the nature upon.

PN889

We have done that. I would say that it is a VAP basis, therefore people do have a three month trial period and they do retain access to the GIO retrenchment benefits should the trial be unsuccessful.

PN890

In the second instance we have identified that there are some call centre roles available to staff and that they would retain their existing GIO terms and conditions.

PN891

I will come to that more precisely in a minute.

PN892

In the third instance people will also retain an option with regard to ...(reads)... participate and they were unsuccessful.

PN893

With regard specifically to the call centre roles which was the subject of some discussion last time we were here, it is the business' view that the roles are rightly considered acceptable alternative position for the purposes of definitions under the business restructuring agreement and the AMP/GIO agreement against the existing role which is what we call a customer service rep too. There are also other roles in the district network which would be considered a VAP for these roles but a lot of the folks that we are talking about are indeed customer service representatives too in GIO.

PN894

However given that the number of roles that remain and are required to be filled is less than we originally expected. The business has formed a view that people will need to apply for these roles and that we will ask for expressions of interest from staff in filling these roles. That is to say that as previously may have been one of the concerns and certainly one of the witnesses that has been before you previously, Colleen Cambril, indicated that one of her concerns was the fact that if she was not to accept an Allfinanz position, it may then mean that she would be forced to accept a role in the call centre and that that may not suit her personal circumstances.

PN895

We are pleased to be able to advise the commission here and we advised the FSU yesterday and we hope to advise staff through the balance of today that nobody will be forced to move to the Parramatta call centre from another district office or from the branches. In this way staff have a full suite of options in front of them and the options are totally at their discretion. They can choose to accept to participate in a selection process for Allfinanz and accept a role or not accept a role based on the terms that we are offering for those positions and that is on a VAP basis.

PN896

Therefore they are not disadvantage by choosing to not participate. They can choose to participate or not participate in a selection process for a role in the call centre. Any role in the call centre will be on their existing terms and conditions. If they choose not to participate, they will not be disadvantage by that and if they wish to they can choose to access retrenchment benefits that they are currently entitled to under the GIO agreements, whether it be the business restructure agreements or the AMP/GIO agreement and have access to those retrenchments as an when the branch or district office closes. So all we are endeavouring to do is try and afford staff every opportunity to make their own decision and not enforce any position on anybody.

PN897

With regards to the call centre roles, Debra did mention, quite correctly, that we hadn't yet agreed between the two parties on the status of VAP and AAP. We have had some discussions with regards to these roles and how they work. For the sake of clarity I have tried to identify here that the roles involved taking service calls from the business insurance and workers compensation and parts of our general insurance business. The roles and responsibilities process, nature of work are largely the same, however, we do recognise that the product is different. Although it is our view that a different product does not in and of itself mean that the job is sufficiently different, that it becomes a voluntary alternative position for the purposes of the definitions of the agreement as distinct from an acceptable alternative position.

PN898

One of the examples that we gave in discussions yesterday was to say if we introduced for example a new personal insurance product, it would be our view that that in and of itself would not change your job so greatly that you then have a consideration as to whether you want to go forward in a new job because your current job is redundant. So these are all general insurance products and they are all subject to similar processes, roles and responsibilities in servicing those products. We have also taken certain steps are you will see in order to try and make the transition as easy as possible, given that we recognise that they are different products. Prior experience is not required in a product. We are planning to keep the call volumes low in order to allow consultants the opportunity to learn the products without pressure and we are making available a business insurance expert on site to assist with face to face training and on the job learning.

PN899

We have a fairly comprehensive communication pack prepared to go out in support of this position. The position around the call centre roles is something that was unclear up till now and does require us to communicate with greater clarity to staff and we'd like to do that today. We chose to hold back on the issuing of that communication pack to afford us an opportunity to have discussions with the FSU yesterday and to afford us an opportunity to have this report back today. But we do think it is important that we get that comprehensive communication out to staff today.

PN900

Debra also touched on the question around training and the fact that there had been some uncertainty around the training required for an Allfinanz position. I have attempted to give some clarity to that here by saying that the training that will be required involves one week's training in Brisbane. That is to say five working days. One week's training in a buddy branch and we will be setting one of those up here in Sydney for the Sydney metro area. One to two weeks training on the job with a team of experienced or finance staff that will introduce to each branch as it opens to assist people arrange a detail around that training and a fact pack in relation to that has gone out to one or two district offices and branches for their feed back. We have since accommodated that feed back in that pack will then go to the balance of relevant staff in the next two days.

PN901

In regards to a couple of points that have been raised by Debra, the future arrangement clause in the employment offer letter was something that Suncorp Metway put in as an initiative of ours in recognition that some time in the future there may well be a set of an arrangement that we agree for example with the FSU as to how to facilitate the balance of GIO staff of which there are maybe 2500 today I suppose to become Suncorp Metway employees some time in the future. We can't forecast what that would look like. It would be very presumptuous of us to try and do so. So what we did attempt to do for people who are being asked to consider an Allfinanz role today is to put a clause into that employment offer letter that effectively says:

PN902

If we do agree, some mechanism for transfer some time in the future for many to which your colleagues would avail themselves to become Suncorp Metway staff. To the extent that there are benefits in that agreement of transfer that you were not being afforded in your current offer letter from Allfinanz, we will apply those benefits to you.

PN903

So what we've tried to do there is ensure that people are not disadvantaged by accepting a role going ahead of any opportunity we might have had, we might have in the future to establish some arrangements for the transfer of the broader population of GIO staff. Whilst Debra points out that it's not a precise set of words, we don't think we can be to much more precise than what was there because as I said we don't want to be so presumptuous to assume what future arrangements might apply. But it is a commitment that we made, we did it as our own initiative to try and ensure that people wouldn't be worse off or disadvantaged in contemplating an Allfinanz role at this present point in time.

PN904

They are the initiatives that we have taken to try as best we can to make these offers as attractive an offer as they can be and to identify what is essentially a beneficial redeployment opportunity for staff who wish to pursue that redeployment opportunity. It's fair to say that if just about anybody else had have bought GIO you wouldn't be seeing an Allfinanz role the way Suncorp has invested its $15 million to expand its branch network. It's fair to say that the employment opportunities that come with that probably wouldn't be available to staff. We think it's a beneficial thing. We think it's an additional redeployment benefit to staff and we have tried to make it available on a purely optional basis for people that want to avail themselves of that benefit without creating any disadvantage to them saying, no.

PN905

I guess in trying to resolve this dispute we found some difficulties in the past week or so as you understood last time we were here, I undertook to go back to the business and try get some input and commitment from them. In that period the FSU I guess in some way, shape or form saw fit to issue no less than six fliers to workforce which, in my view, only sought to raise the profile of the issue. Endeavour to expand the nature of the dispute and it's made it a whole lot harder for us to try and find a way to resolve it. It tends to have the effect of hardening the business into a stance as distinct from being as open minded as we can convince them to be to try and resolve the thing. So some of the communications that have been around in the last week have been less than helpful in trying to resolve this issue.

PN906

It was my understanding certainly that your Honour gave us a reasonable understanding last time we were here that it would be a good idea to try and do our best to resolve the issue. I won't submit any other documentation or any of those fliers in terms of the occupational health and safety issues. We've got the letter yesterday, I've had a look at it. Without being an expert in this field there's nothing in there that gives us any great concern. We understand we've got obligations around O H and S. We understand we've got obligations to our 8000 staff to ensure that we introduce things, that we set up work environments that meet all standards of safety in the community and against legislation we've done that effectively over the last 15 years as an organisation and we have no reason to think we wouldn't be doing it going forward. So I don't have any major concerns around that and our ability to meet those obligations.

PN907

So, I guess in summary, Commissioner, that's where we've got to. We've attempted to clarify what the option is for folks going to the call centre. Importantly what that allows people to understand is that they won't be forced into a role. It allows the 11 people who are yet to reply one way or the other on outstanding Allfinanz offers to make their decision and to make it in the confidence that if they say no to that role they are not disadvantaged in any way, shape or form. They have an alternative option if they wish to take it which allows them to retain their existing GIO terms and conditions in the call centre or if they choose not to do that they will continue to retain their full entitlements against retrenchment.

PN908

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This group of people that we're concerned with at the moment are a reasonably cohesive group of people in that they are doing the same kind of work at the present time.

PN909

MR BAINBRIDGE: That's correct.

PN910

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Some are being offered Allfinanz jobs.

PN911

MR BAINBRIDGE: Actually all were offered Allfinanz - - -

PN912

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All were?

PN913

MR BAINBRIDGE: An opportunity to apply for an Allfinanz role. Some people chose to apply. Some people chose not to.

PN914

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right, well, that makes that even more cohesive. The group we're concerned with were all offered the opportunity to apply for Allfinanz roles?

PN915

MR BAINBRIDGE: Correct.

PN916

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The balance, ie, those who elected not to apply or who were unsuccessful, and there are two groups, aren't there?

PN917

MR BAINBRIDGE: That's right.

PN918

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Have the option of applying for a call centre role. That's correct?

PN919

MR BAINBRIDGE: Correct, yes.

PN920

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Those who are unsuccessful or those who don't apply will all have retrenchment on GIO terms available to them?

PN921

MR BAINBRIDGE: They will all retain their full entitlements to retrenchment on GIO terms.

PN922

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I've got that clear. Do you want to say anything in response, Ms Hannan?

PN923

MS HANNAN: Yes, your Honour, just briefly. I don't want to overly much concentrate on some of the assertions made by Mr Bainbridge concerning information we sent out to the work force. I think it would be suffice to say that the communications to our members and the concerns expressed about Suncorp's position in raising the legal application of the AMP-GIO Agreement has caused some of that to flow.

PN924

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, if that was done it's contrary to the original expression that it was going to be observed whether or not it was legally enforceable.

PN925

MS HANNAN: The position that has been, and I believe accurately reported, is that Suncorp has said that there is a question mark about the legally binding effect of that agreement but that they then say to people that they will continue to apply it but when there is a disagreement about its terms we can't seek relief on them, yes. But more importantly in terms of what we're here for today is one matter that I should of course respond to now which your Honour would be of course well aware is that the other proceedings on foot in terms of the determination of the jurisdictional issues is still to be determined by your Honour and that poses another factor into the consideration of how we might go with this issue in the event that parties may endeavour to seek a resolution of the issue and/or return to the Commission for final determination.

PN926

We say on the basis of FSU has put today and which has been supported by the letter which Mr Bainbridge has tendered indicating that we're looking at anywhere between three and four weeks training that they're not ready to present in those roles to be fully operational it would be expected not until the end of July in any event.

PN927

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes although I think from the company's point of view one would expect them to train people who have accepted job positions, isn't that correct?

PN928

MS HANNAN: That's right, your Honour, in which case that was why FSU put the secondary submission to you.

PN929

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, would you past me again, please?

PN930

MS HANNAN: Yes, your Honour, the first position would be - - -

PN931

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It's a simple one, extend everything to 30 July, it's simple, I understand that.

PN932

MS HANNAN: That's easy to follow that one. The second position would be and I understand it's been looked elsewhere and in my discussions with Mr Clifford who has had far more excursions into this area, is that until such time s the issue as to which conditions of employment are to apply, persons could still go forward and apply for the Allfinanz roles but that the conditions issue be put into abeyance.

PN933

Now FSU is not saying forever, your Honour, we can't keep coming back here every month saying that but we are saying because of what we put before you today and given what Suncorp Metway has indicated, where is the prejudice to the company if those people go forward, start getting trained in those roles? We will have further discussions on those issues and the other related issues and see where we get. If the Commission pleases.

PN934

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you want to finish anything off?

PN935

MR BAINBRIDGE: If I can, your Honour, I'll try and be brief. You previously received from Debra the note from Richard Tanner to staff, just to ensure - - -

PN936

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's X2, is it?

PN937

MS HANNAN: Just to ensure that we all understand what Suncorp is saying what we did quite precisely in that letter on page 2 under item (c) where we have said that:

PN938

We reiterate that regardless of strict legal position, it has always been our position ...(reads)... and the GIO Business Restructuring Agreement.

PN939

It goes on to say:

PN940

By way of example, retrenchment entitlements for GIO employees will continue to be applied in accordance with the GIO agreements.

PN941

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That will apply, I'm sure I'm right in saying this, that will apply notwithstanding the fact that a GIO employee may have accepted an Allfinanz job.

PN942

MR BAINBRIDGE: In the sense that if they accept an Allfinanz job and they choose to go across to Allfinanz on the terms and conditions that are being offered, once they become a Suncorp Metway employee, then the terms and conditions in Suncorp Metway apply to them.

PN943

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You see, that seems to be contrary to item 1 of the letter to Ms Hannan:

PN944

Allfinanz roles under some terms and conditions on BAP basis...

PN945

And set that to one side:

PN946

...employees have been given the option to apply or not; 3-month trial period ...(reads)... should the trial be unsuccessful.

PN947

MR BAINBRIDGE: During the trial period, if they are unsuccessful, we recognise they go back to their original role in effect, and they will continue to have their benefit of the GIO.

PN948

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see, that's how you technically get around it.

PN949

MR BAINBRIDGE: We are not trying to say that you will have to accept different retrenchment terms. However, if you decide to take the role and you commit and in four year's time we go through another one of these exercises which I don't know that I want to be around for but if we do, that you would be subject to whatever the retrenchment benefits in Suncorp Metway at that time were. But for the purposes of this we've tried quite precisely to reiterate again as recently as last week, our continued commitment regardless of any legal status to those agreements and to their ongoing application in GIO.

PN950

So I just wanted to highlight the fact that we have again committed to that. I guess the only other things in closing are that obviously enough from my submissions this morning, we would be opposing the recommendations of the FSU, both to seek an extension to July, our view is to that people have a full suite of options available to them right now and they are quite able to make a decision knowing that whatever decision they make, they are not going to be forced into a position that they don't want to be in and they will always retain their entitlement in this circumstance to the full retrenchment benefits in GIO Agreement.

PN951

We also oppose the second recommendation being sought in relation to persons being apply for a role but the terms and conditions issue being put in abeyance. Of the 45 positions that have been offered 34 people have accepted those roles under the terms that have been offered. Those people have made a conscious decision, they've chosen to accept the terms that are there and they've chosen to pursue a career in the Allfinanz network.

PN952

We don't think it is appropriate to then allow a fewer number of people an opportunity to accept a role without committing to the full employment offer that is there for them in the way that their colleagues have done so having two split camps there and we don't think that that is a helpful outcome for the business going forward and trying to manage this.

PN953

Finally, as you are aware, this is essentially the third of three issues that were part of this dispute and I guess it is our view, ultimately, that what people are being afforded in the redeployment opportunities and retrenchment opportunities that they have through Allfinanz is, in fact, a better set of options than the folks in Workcover Victoria who have fewer options yet were able to resolve that dispute. Our view would be that these people in Allfinanz are in a pretty good place to be able to make some decisions about their career and their futures and go forward, as good a place today as they would be tomorrow.

PN954

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well, thank you, Mr Bainbridge. I will adjourn for ten minutes to consider what I should do. I intend to come back and deliver a statement on the matter before 10 o'clock.

ADJOURNED ACCORDINGLY [9.43am]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #X1 LETTER DATED 24/06/2000 TO MR RICHARD TANNER ON BEHALF OF MR GREG FROST PN866
EXHIBIT #X2 NOTE TO ALL GIO STAFF FROM RICHARD TANNER, GENERAL MANAGER, HUMAN RESOURCES PN870
EXHIBIT #Z1 LETTER TO MS HANNON FROM MR BAINBRIDGE DATED 24/06/2002 PN883