C2001/5307, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 2855 (25 July 2002)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N VT04890

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT KAUFMAN

C2001/5307

APPLICATION FOR AN ORDER TO
STOP OR PREVENT INDUSTRIAL ACTION

Application under section 127(2) of the Act
by Metropolitan Fire and Emergency Services
Board re bans at the South Eastern Training
Ground

MELBOURNE

9.46 AM, THURSDAY, 11 JULY 2002

Continued from 9.10.01

PN163

MR P. BERTOLUS: I appear on behalf of the Metropolitan Fire and Emergency Services Board and appearing with me is MR A. GARCIA.

PN164

MR R. CRAMPTON: I appear for the United Fire Fighters' Union of Australia. I take the opportunity to apologise for my lateness this morning, your Honour, however, circumstances were such on the roadways this morning which I would normally use to come to work that we weren't going very fast anywhere. So I apologise, your Honour.

PN165

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Crampton. Yes, who wants to address me first?

PN166

MR BERTOLUS: I will just make a brief comment, your Honour.

PN167

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I should indicate, Mr Crampton, that at 9.15 when this matter was listed I did have a brief discussion with Mr Bertolus just to ascertain the nature of the proposed consent order. So I just inform you of that and I take it that doesn't cause you any discomfort.

PN168

MR CRAMPTON: No, your Honour. In fact, Mr Bertolus briefed me in respect of what the nature of the discussions were and the issues raised.

PN169

MR BERTOLUS: If I could continue, briefly, your Honour. We have had some further discussion about the proposition you put this morning in respect of - in conference between us about the possibility of this matter being placed on transcript and kept on record and, basically, the parties are still in agreement that the order should really be made - should be issued. We understand the practical difficulties that you have raised in respect of this and can understand you expressing some reservation about the nature of the order.

PN170

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. It is just that it is - the terms of it, obviously, are terms of art that I find a little difficult to understand, although you did explain to me this morning, Mr Bertolus, what some of the terms mean. I would like you to speak to the draft order, albeit very briefly, and I will make the order as sought on the basis that the parties to the - - -

PN171

MR BERTOLUS: Understand it.

PN172

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: - - - agreed order understand better than I do what it means.

PN173

MR BERTOLUS: Well, if I - I think that probably the best way to address this is to, sort of, go to the intent of the order, I think, so as that way people will get some understanding when they read it. Effectively, this order came about as a result of the concerns raised by the union about the utility of the South-East Training Ground which is a facility that is a joint establishment between ourselves and the Country Fire Authority.

PN174

There are, effectively, a couple of different standards or methods of operation. The CFA, obviously, have different areas of operation and different areas of responsibility and, therefore, their standards are somewhat different that would apply in respect of the Metropolitan Fire and Emergency Services Board and the intent of this order is to really make sure that the standards that are required by the MFESB and the UFU in respect of their members at the MFESB are maintained.

PN175

I think that that would be a fairly reasonable summary of what the order is about. Effectively, in relation to point number 1 of the order, for example, what it talks about is the minimum number of Metropolitan Fire and Emergency Service Board officers, and officers are people who are station officer or above, participating in drills and the roles of those people inside those drills. So that way then there is some clarity about who is actually in charge of the drills and it should be made clear that the drills, when MFESB personnel are out there, it is MFESB personnel who are in charge of the drills, the conduct of the drills, even though there is participation of South-East Training Ground staff for the operation of some of the facilities.

PN176

In terms of point number 2, pad operators, these are people who operate the various segments of the South-East Training Ground. The pad operator is a person that owns - when I say owns, operates a section of the South-East Training Ground in which there may be one or a number of props which - props are, as I explained to you this morning, the theatrical sense of the word is probably the best description.

PN177

We have some houses and special buildings and things like this constructed inside a pad area and the operations are conducted in those particular facilities. Basically, at point number 2 there was a requirement to establish the minimum levels of skills that these pad operators would have to have so as they could recognise when there was some danger to the people who are actually operating in that particular pad area.

PN178

Now, these pad operators are usually responsible for the control of things like smoke, generators or in the control of flame, you know, large gas jets or things like this. When I say large gas jets I am talking jets of the order of a leaking gas main or a fire, so they are quite substantial flames and the intent that these people - well, the intent is that these people will be able to recognise the dangers that firefighters are in when they are conducting their drills there and they would be able to shut down the flame should an emergency arise or somebody lose control during a drill because the intent is quite clear that we don't want our people hurt while we are training them. So that is the idea.

PN179

At point number 3 the intent is to deal with the qualifications of the supervisors of the pad operators, in other words, the people who are one level above the people at the pads. Point number 4 deals with the number of pad operators and supervisors that would be required for each drill. Then the additional roles at point number 5 of the South-East Training supervisor to also act as a safety officer in conjunction with the MFESB appointed officer to conduct that particular function.

PN180

Then it talks - the remainder of the provisions deal with, I suppose, the practical application of the way that the drills would actually be conducted and they go to things like, you know, who may terminate drills, radio communications and even the amount of time that has got to be anticipated in relation to setting up drills down at the South-East Training Ground. I should point out that all of these matters have been subject to a great deal of scrutiny on both sides.

PN181

Our senior operational people have looked at this document at great length and agree with all points. Certainly, there has been a great deal of discussion between the union, the South-East Training Ground and ourselves in order to be able to make sure that what is prescribed in this order is attainable by everybody and there should really be no excuse to work outside of the agreement that is here. If the Commission pleases.

PN182

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Bertolus, you gave to me a draft order this morning which is the agreed order, I take it?

PN183

MR BERTOLUS: Yes.

PN184

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You were going to amend point 4 to delete the first two words, "SETG requires".

PN185

MR BERTOLUS: Yes.

PN186

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And that will start with "A minimum of one - - - "

PN187

MR BERTOLUS: Yes, that is correct.

EXHIBIT #1 DRAFT ORDER

PN188

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you, Mr Bertolus.

PN189

MR BERTOLUS: Thank you.

PN190

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Crampton.

PN191

MR CRAMPTON: Thank you, your Honour. I don't wish to add much to what has already been put before you other than to say that the union doesn't disagree with the description of the intent of the draft order or consent order which has been put to you by Mr Bertolus. We do see that the order provides, or if you like, puts into, say, a final form the agreed processes for the operations of the utility of the South-East Training Ground that have been reached between the MFESB and the UFU.

PN192

The 11 points, your Honour, have been agreed for some time. They were contained in a letter which was the subject of an exhibit before you when the - if I recall correctly, when the matter was - the section 127 application was first brought before you and at that time the MFESB indicated a commitment to those 11 points. The only thing that now has been developed is the actual requirements to meet the levels of skill for points 2 and point 3 and there has been, as has been said, discussion on those points and agreement reached on the, if you like, skill levels, the competencies which are practical area drill operators and practical area drills supervisors will need to have - enable - for them to meet the standards of which both the MFESB and the UFU see that are appropriate for the operations of drills at South-East Training Ground.

PN193

The union support - obviously, supports the order that has been drafted in conjunction between the parties and with the adjustment that has been made, suggested by your Honour, we would seek that it does be made. If the Commission pleases.

PN194

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you, Mr Crampton. Very well, I will make an order to give effect to the agreement that has been reached between the parties. It will operate from today's date and remain in force for a period of 12 months. Would the parties be kind enough to email to my associate a copy of exhibit 1 and that will facilitate the earlier production of the formal order. I commend you both for having reached an agreement on what has been a bone of content, I know, between you for some period of time. Adjourn the Commission, please.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [9.59am]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #1 DRAFT ORDER PN188