C2002/2559, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 2857 (25 July 2002)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N VT04898

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT LACY

C2002/2559

AUSTRALIAN MUNICIPAL, ADMINISTRATIVE,
CLERICAL AND SERVICES UNION - VICTORIA
SERVICES AND ENERGY BRANCH

and

TXU AUSTRALIA/EASTERN ENERGY

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of a dispute re clause 27 classification structure
of the Eastern Energy Limited Enterprise Agreement 1999

MELBOURNE

4.00 PM, THURSDAY, 11 JULY 2002

Continued from 17.6.02

PN173

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, good afternoon. No change in appearances? What is the situation, Ms Dawson?

PN174

MS DAWSON: Your Honour, as required by the Commission, Mr McTaggart and I had a meeting to discuss - to look at the process in order to report back to you. The first meeting I came down and met with Mr McTaggart and a Ms Lisa Teresinski who is the Tenix HR Training Co-ordinator, I think. They are actually the people - it is an alliance type situation, the people are employed by TXU, but are contracted to Tenix, and that was the reason Ms Teresinski was there apparently.

PN175

We actually had a look at what is called the Hay Pay Net System, and that is a sort of generic - I am sure your Honour is aware of Hay's work - and we had a look at that. The first demonstration that we had was a call centre operator. Mr McTaggart said that was an area that he knew and we had a look at that. There was no industry group representing power or energy incidentally, and that was a demonstration where we looked at the very, very brief position description and approximately what the pay rates were, but it didn't really relate specifically to the people that we are looking at at the moment.

PN176

We decided we would have a look at the group generically called testers, and they are generally called either power technicians or protection and control technicians, something of that nature. At the next meeting TXU undertook to review the position description which they didn't have at that meeting, and look at that in the context of competencies and accountability and how that might be benchmarked against other related positions in other industries. That was why we postponed the hearing - the report-back that we were to have with you.

PN177

The next meeting - there was a position description produced by the Tenix HR consulting person and the demonstration of benchmarking was again on the Hay Pay Net website, which is the generic data base. There was a number of industries, a number of generic classifications, a number of states to choose from and a range of pay points. A range of industries, they were not specified across Australia with the field chosen for an engineering technician role, and there was a very brief description of this role. There was no indication of what these industries were and salary range was 51,623 to 54,163. There was no indication of the date that this was current.

PN178

I have looked at the position description, your Honour, and have some of my members look at it and it does not reflect the work that the technicians actually do. It is a bit of an amalgam. There are two types of testers; there is the protection and control and there is a cable tester at TXU as well and the work is very different, it is of a different type, but this position description that we were given really is an amalgam of the two roles.

PN179

I then said I would make an attempt to have a look myself at what would be an appropriate area to benchmark, and over the last few days - I have only had the last couple of days to be able to do that, and in fact the last document only got to me about an hour before I left the Latrobe Valley where I work, and my research does not bear out Mr McTaggart's findings. I find that the - we had a look at the technicians in distribution and power net companies in Victoria and I find that they do very similar work, almost identical work, but the pay rates are very different.

PN180

For example, a review that was carried out in August 2001, these are senior technicians so I won't go through the others, at SPI - the company called SPI PowerNet, they were at that time being paid 55,042. I have copies of these, your Honour, if you would like to - - -

PN181

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That might be helpful, yes. Tell me, what membership do you have? What are the classifications of the people that you cover?

PN182

MS DAWSON: These people, the people we are talking about at the moment, are called control and - sorry, forgive me for a moment, I just completely forgot - protection and control technicians.

PN183

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right.

PN184

MS DAWSON: So we can see that the SPI rate was 55,042, that Powercor was paying 57,321, that AGL was paying 59,697 and that TXU at 18 October, which was I believe an increment later, but I didn't actually have those figures, an increment later, it is at a later date but in October were paying 51,288.

PN185

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And is it agreed they are the equivalent positions?

PN186

MS DAWSON: Well, from the research that I have done, and I have done work with SPI and the Powercor, and in fact the SPI review is part of the research that I did to find these figures, but the Powercor - I have position descriptions, your Honour, from SPI and Powercor, and our people have been tick off on virtually every single item on those, so I am satisfied that they are comparable positions, yes.

PN187

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right.

PN188

MS DAWSON: And, in fact, TXU through Tenix contracts some of these testers to Powercor, there are some of them there at the moment, to do tester work, and SPI interfaces with TXU at the point where the network meets the distribution, so they actually work in the same plant, virtually the same plant at some period in time. I don't believe that the benchmarking that TXU have done in taking technicians or some sort of technicians from an unknown range of industries is really something to benchmark against. These people are fairly specialised. You will find that they virtually all come from the SEC and that is the background they have and they have got many years of experience. So they are a fairly specialised group and there aren't large numbers of them around.

PN189

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: How many are there here?

PN190

MS DAWSON: How many do we have?

PN191

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN192

MS DAWSON: We have only three who do the control position, but another one who does what they call cable testing. In the other companies, SPI is 15-plus, Powercor has 12-plus, AGL four to five.

PN193

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Well, has this been discussed with Mr McTaggart?

PN194

MS DAWSON: Well, only briefly as we came up. As I said, I only received confirmation of all of this. I wasn't prepared to take anecdotal evidence from my members or anyone else and I have been able to find position descriptions and I have received one from one of the companies actually and another one from our own resources in the union, and the comparison, let's say, I wanted to make sure our people actually looked at them and said, yes, this is what we do, and I only received that shortly before I left to come down, as I said.

PN195

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, is there an agreement that the people you cover here are all senior level?

PN196

MS DAWSON: I believe there is. They have ticked off on the senior level of these positions. Yes, I believe there is. I certainly believe that there are very strong grounds to - if we don't make the assumption, I think there is very strong grounds to benchmark against these people, at least explore this in a little more depth.

PN197

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. I will see what Mr McTaggart has to say. What do you say about this, Mr McTaggart?

PN198

MR McTAGGART: Well, I think - this is the first time I have seen the evidence and I haven't seen any of the position descriptions, so I can't really comment on whether they are comparative or not. Obviously, the staff would say they are comparative against the highest possible salary benchmark, whether they are experienced or senior, we would have to have our managers look at and make that assumption, but I haven't seen any of the position descriptions. This is the first time I have seen their comparison, so I really can't comment, your Honour, on that because I just haven't had time to read all the documentation.

PN199

TXU have gone through a fairly expensive campaign with Hay Consulting to benchmark across all the industries, so we are not just picking the eyes out of the electricity industry, and that is the best way, we believe, in benchmarking all our staff, and our figures still show that these people are within the benchmarking figures through Hay. Now, I don't know what the 55 or 49,000 - I don't know what that is made up of. Is that made up of base pay? Is it their final average salary for 12 months including overtime?

PN200

All those things need to be considered because the figures shown as at 18 August, there has been a 4 per cent pay increase on top of that, we have just certified an agreement as you are well aware, so that figure at the end is wrong anyway. So I am just not sure - we need to sit down together again and go through the documentation and I obviously haven't had the chance to do that.

PN201

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I thought Ms Dawson says she has the job descriptions here now; is that right?

PN202

MS DAWSON: Yes, yes, your Honour, I have them here. And also the figures that we have here I have shown a TXU rate for 1 July. I have also noted on this document that these are all based on enterprise or award conditions and the base rates do not include any allowances, and that is in the documentation that I have from the review that was done at SPI PowerNet.

PN203

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is there anything else you want to say on the record at this stage?

PN204

MS DAWSON: Just that I think that the benchmarking that TXU have carried out is pretty superficial, and I think that if we are talking about, as Mr McTaggart does, comparing apples with apples, I think we need to be looking at the people who do a very similar job. I mean, they are as scarce as hen's teeth. I know that they have tried to recruit in recent times and have difficulty in finding the right sort of people, and those right sort of people have come from the same source as these people because they are the only people - and that is the old SEC - that they are the only people who actually have the skills and experience to deal with a huge range of plant and equipment that is in this industry.

PN205

You wouldn't take a technician - I mean, you can talk about technicians Australia-wide, that is fine, but, you know, what are we talking about; photocopier technicians? You can't compare people like that with these people. Thank you.

PN206

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, Mr McTaggart, did you want to say anything else on the record?

PN207

MR McTAGGART: Well, no, not really, your Honour, because this is the first time I have seen it, so it is fine for the ASU to say that it includes all enterprise agreement payments and it is a base rate, but I haven't seen any evidence that suggests it is or it isn't. So I really need to - - -

PN208

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, is there any point in us going into conference now and having at look at these job descriptions?

PN209

MR McTAGGART: Well, I haven't got the position descriptions with me. I can't do the benchmarking exercise with position description against position description because I am - - -

PN210

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ms Dawson has got the position descriptions.

PN211

MR McTAGGART: I can take them away and review them with the manager of that group and see whether we are comparing apples with apples, but certainly I can't do that.

PN212

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Why can't we do that now, because you don't have enough expertise in that field?

PN213

MR McTAGGART: No, I am not the technical expert in that field. I am the IR/HR person, so we need the technical manager to review the documentation to make the comparisons to say that, yes, that is the work. I would probably question the SPI PowerNet one. From my knowledge, they are more technically oriented than our testers would be because they do the electrical testing on the bigger voltages as they come through the system. So obviously they would be paid more because they are at the most experience end of it. As it comes through the system, it is reduced in voltage. They deal with the 66 and 22 volts, whereas our people - - -

PN214

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But they are the lowest of the three others, anyway.

PN215

MR McTAGGART: Well, that is what I am not sure about. I am not - I don't know what the evidence is behind these figures - Powercor, what are we comparing them against? And AGL are notoriously high payers, so I wouldn't be looking at that group. And we are all private industry now. We have recruited, in the last six months, apprentices to go into this area because we can't get experienced people because they are not around, so we have gone through the back end. And these people actually refused to train the apprentices and the trainees that we put on because they didn't think it was part of their job. So we are trying to help them and we run into road blocks anyway.

PN216

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, how much time do you need to talk - to arrange a meeting with your technical adviser and Ms Dawson?

PN217

MR McTAGGART: Well, we can do it next week, late next week.

PN218

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ms Dawson, what do you say about that?

PN219

MS DAWSON: Your Honour, I am always at the narrow end of these discussions and usually TXI - TXU, I am sorry, have a number of people there - there is always me and some more. I really would like to have some technical support myself, and I did - - -

PN220

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, don't ask me for that.

PN221

MS DAWSON: No. You are not offering your services, then? I didn't assess these myself and I didn't just ask the people who are employed there, either. I did seek some other technical advice. I am not saying it was totally unbiased. But I think there is a strong correlation. I am convinced that there is, otherwise I wouldn't have brought this - this here. I am also concerned - so I would like to have some support, technical support, as well if we are getting - - -

PN222

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And who do you have in mind for that?

PN223

MS DAWSON: Well, I would like to have some - I would suggest that one of the employees would - who actually - - -

PN224

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: One of the employees, or more?

PN225

MS DAWSON: One or more. But when I asked to have - I asked what I need to do to have a meeting with them to discuss this issue, Mr McTaggart wanted a week's notice. And Ms Teresinksi wanted three or four because these people are so stretched. The other issue I have is that I was offered these - I sought and was offered these documents by the company, one of the companies, and the other one through the review document that the union had. I am not certain that I can actually give the company these documents to take away. I think it would be somewhat unethical. I have got no problem with us sitting round discussing them but I do have some difficulty about the efficacy of taking the documents away to have a look at them, your Honour.

PN226

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, what if I list the matter for a conference back here, with Mr McTaggart and his technical advisers and you with such number of technical advisers a you may reasonably require, and we will deal with the matter here in Commission, if I set aside half a day?

PN227

MS DAWSON: If that is agreeable to Mr McTaggart.

PN228

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, what about you? Is that - - -

PN229

MS DAWSON: Yes, that would be suitable. I am happy to meet with - - -

PN230

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN231

MS DAWSON: - - - with Mr McTaggart.

PN232

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, we will come to that because I want you to meet before then anyway. But - - -

PN233

MS DAWSON: Yes, all right, yes.

PN234

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But I mean, this - the agreement required this to have been completed within four months of its certification and the thing just keeps meandering on and on.

PN235

MS DAWSON: Yes. That is very true.

PN236

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And if the parties themselves can't resolve it in - effectively in some expeditious way, then perhaps the best way to do it is to bring it back here and we will sit down and do it here.

PN237

MS DAWSON: Yes. Thank you, your Honour.

PN238

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr McTaggart?

PN239

MR McTAGGART: Well, I would certainly like to have a go at fixing it between ourselves. So if we can review the documentation and then if we have still got - if the ASU has still got a problem with the outcome of that, happy to come back to the Commission to have your advice and leadership on it. But I would still prefer to have a go at it ourselves.

PN240

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We are just off the record for the moment.

OFF THE RECORD

PN241

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The parties have had some discussions in this matter. It appears, though, that there is still no agreement about the appropriate benchmarking - applicable benchmark. In the circumstances, the parties are to confer further and to seek to resolve the issues on benchmarking. If the parties reach some agreement prior to close of business on 1 August they should notify my associate accordingly. If no notice is received by my associate, to that effect, then the matter will be preceding at 10 am on Friday, 2 August, by way of conference in the Commission. Any other matters? Very well. Thank you.

PN242

MR McTAGGART: No, your Honour.

PN243

MS DAWSON: Thank you.

ADJOURNED UNTIL FRIDAY, 2 AUGUST 2002 [4.24pm]