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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114 MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
DX 305 Melbourne Tel:(03) 9672-5608 Fax:(03) 9670-8883
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N VT05050
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
COMMISSIONER HOLMES
C No 00939 of 1998,
C2002/3437
C2002/3438
C2002/3439
AMBULANCE EMPLOYEES - VICTORIA INTERIM
ORDER 1994
Review under Item 51, Schedule 5, Transitional
WROLA Act 1996 re conditions of employment
Applications under section 113 of the Act by
Victorian Patient Transport and Others to vary
the above award
MELBOURNE
10.08 AM, WEDNESDAY, 24 JULY 2002
Continued from 23.7.02
PN737
THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Forbath.
PN738
MS FORBATH: Commissioner, following discussions yesterday I have e-mailed to all of the parties last night, including the Commission, what I suppose is broadly defined as a consent set of directions. I understand Mr Flower doesn't have any difficulty with those and they are in the format that was outlined by Mr Friend yesterday. However, I understand that Mr Quigley has one comment to make about one of those dates so I will leave that to him.
PN739
The other documents that I have given your associate was following our discussions with the Metropolitan Ambulance Service and the Rural Ambulance Service yesterday the union amended its claim in regard to one matter only and that is to do with higher duties, to remove concerns re the AEU principle and I have reproduced the whole set of claims just for simplicity rather than just one of the pages. But it is exactly the same save for the clause on higher duties which has been amended.
PN740
The other document that I handed up, I gave to your associate as well and the other parties also have a copy of it is the document that was circulated in our discussions headed Contested Issues and that has simply been just reconfigured slightly to reflect some of the matters that will be held over to later date and that will not be dealt with today and the other document that I have handed up is a revised respondency list and that was schedule 1 to the consent document that hopefully will be made into an award today.
PN741
I appreciate that the other parties have only received that today and the Commission has only received it today and perhaps that is something that can be put into the document at a later stage once the other parties have had an opportunity to examine it more closely. But this is as up to date as the union can bring it to at this moment because there have been a number of business transactions in the private sector with companies changing names and being sold to other entities and so forth. So we have tried to reflect that in the respondency list as far as our knowledge takes us to this point in time.
PN742
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Ms Forbath. Yes, Mr Quigley.
PN743
MR QUIGLEY: Just a small point, Commissioner. You will recall that amongst the items on the program going forward was that we would be lodging an application in the Commission by this Friday to seek either a separate award for the private sector or a separate part of the award for the private sector. In the event that the Commission hasn't allowed us an adjournment of the proceedings as we hoped I am now running short of time to be able to fulfil that date and I was wondering if the parties and the Commission would grant us a couple of days grace to have that application in by next Tuesday, close of business, rather than this Friday? I don't believe that given the other dates that are involved that it would be asking too much, if the Commission pleases.
PN744
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Quigley. Yes, Mr Flower.
PN745
MR FLOWER: I don't have anything constructive to say on that. I don't oppose the application by Mr Quigley.
PN746
THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Forbath.
PN747
MS FORBATH: We don't oppose that either, Commissioner. If the Commission sees fit to grant it to next Tuesday that will be acceptable to us.
PN748
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Quigley, your application is granted.
PN749
MR QUIGLEY: Thank you, Commissioner.
PN750
THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Forbath.
PN751
MS FORBATH: Commissioner just one point of clarification then in regard to those directions. Would that mean that the date in number 1 and 2 will be changed for all the parties? Would that be a simpler way in which to proceed, that we simply just change that first date in regard to both Wilsons and the union's application for lodgment on the Tuesday? Would that make it just simpler and more straight forward?
PN752
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, we will find out what the others views are. Mr Quigley.
PN753
MR QUIGLEY: We have got no problems, Commissioner.
PN754
MR FLOWER: Neither here, Mr Commissioner.
PN755
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, then the directions will be amended such that clause 1 will read on or before 30 July and the ALHMWU make application pursuant to section 113 of the Act for the setting of award rates for patient transport, officers and ambulance attendants and on or before 30 July 2002 Wilson Patient Transport and Medical Transport Services make any application which they wish to make in respect to separate award provisions with respect to private providers including any proposed draft award. I will arrange for these directions to be issued later today once my associate has prepared in the necessary format and they will be signed and sealed and given to you either at the luncheon adjournment or certainly before the close of the day. Ms Forbath.
PN756
MS FORBATH: Commissioner as I understand it, because of the availability of witnesses the parties discussed yesterday that it would be appropriate for Mr Flower's witnesses to go on first and with the union's witnesses to go on after that. Mr McGhie in any event is not available this morning and will be coming in after lunch and as I understand it Mr Flower's witnesses, or one or all, I am not sure, are not available in the afternoon.
PN757
THE COMMISSIONER: You have had a very early lunch, Ms Forbath, despite the time on the clock.
PN758
MS FORBATH: Circumstances appear to have changed, however we might in any event continue with that course of events because as I understand Mr Flower's witnesses, or one of them at least, has to be away by lunch time. So as I understand it that might be - if we put the witnesses on and then we can do submissions and reply to all of the items that we are going to try and complete today.
PN759
THE COMMISSIONER: Fine. Mr Flower.
PN760
MR FLOWER: That is the position, Mr Commissioner, and perhaps the Commission might give some guidance as to both the order of evidence and as to the order of submissions. I have no objection in principle to what Ms Forbath, namely, that we hear all the evidence this morning and then commence submissions after the conclusion of that evidence and Ms Forbath is correct, I really need to get my witnesses out this morning if I can. So it would be convenient subject to the union's consent if I led my evidence-in-chief first and then we could deal with the union's evidence and that could conclude evidence and we could come to some arrangement, either by consent or directed by the Commission as to who addresses the Commission in relation to the various applications.
PN761
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that is fine. I would prefer if you can come to consent. If you don't then I will rule.
PN762
MR FLOWER: If the Commission pleases. Perhaps if I could call my witnesses first.
PN763
THE COMMISSIONER: Certainly.
PN764
PN765
MS FORBATH: Commissioner.
PN766
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Forbath.
PN767
MS FORBATH: Just one small matter. All of the witnesses are currently in the chamber which is probably not usual practice. I am just wondering how the other side feels about what the appropriate - - -
PN768
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, do you have a position?
PN769
MS FORBATH: Well, we would probably think that it was preferable that the witnesses not be in the chamber.
PN770
MR FLOWER: I am happy to consent to an order that the witnesses are out of court. I am not fussed with that position - sorry, out of the Commission.
PN771
THE COMMISSIONER: Sure. I so order.
PN772
MR FLOWER: Mr Gough, is your full name Stephen Thomas Gough?---That is correct.
PN773
And you are employed by Rural Ambulance Victoria?---That is correct.
PN774
In which capacity, Mr Gough?---I am currently the Director of Operational Services for Rural Ambulance Victoria.
PN775
Yes, and Rural Ambulance Victoria is based at 14 Albert Street, Ballarat?---That is correct.
**** STEPHEN THOMAS GOUGH XN MR FLOWER
PN776
Now, for the purposes of this proceeding you have had prepared a witness statement, have you not?---That is correct.
PN777
And can I show you a copy of this document, please. Can you have a look at that document in its entirety going to each of the three pages. That is a copy of your witness statement?---It is a correct copy of my witness statement.
PN778
And you have signed it and dated it 24 June 2002?---That is correct.
PN779
And the matters contained in that are true and correct?---That is correct.
PN780
I tender the witness statement, if the Commission pleases. For the convenience of the Commission, the witness statement is attachment 3 to the - or a copy of it, is attachment 3 to the submissions of the Metropolitan Ambulance Service and Rural Ambulance Service which have already been served on the Commission and the parties.
PN781
MR FLOWER: If the Commission pleases. Mr Gough, if you could stay there for some cross-examination.l
PN782
PN783
MS FORBATH: Mr Gough, the - perhaps if I could hand up appendix 9 and appendix 10 which was the - appendix 9 and appendix 10, Commissioner, were contained in the Rural Ambulance Victoria's submissions which the Commission already has a copy of. I have handed up to the witness for ease of my cross-examination my only copy. Commissioner, all parties should have a copy of those. I haven't reproduced them for the parties.
**** STEPHEN THOMAS GOUGH XXN MS FORBATH
PN784
THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, you said they were appendix 9 and - - -
PN785
MS FORBATH: Appendix 9 and appendix 10 in the folder that was presented at least to the union as submissions from Rural Ambulance Victoria.
PN786
THE COMMISSIONER: Appendix 7 mine only goes to. Unless I have misread it. There is a document which has a handwritten appendix 10 on the top of it but then it has beneath it a green circular stick on and which is marked appendix 7.
PN787
MR FLOWER: If the Commission pleases, appendix 7 to the bound submissions of both RAV and MAS is the document to which my learned friend is referring to. In a previous draft it was appendix 10. In the Commission's copy, the formally served submissions, it is appendix 7.
PN788
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Flower.
PN789
MS FORBATH: Commissioner, could we just have perhaps a two minute adjournment because it seems that I have had certain documents served on me that may not have come to the Commission so that could cause me some confusion later on in regard to my dealing with the witnesses because I am actually working from a set of documents that were given to me by the Rural Ambulance Victoria which - - -
PN790
THE COMMISSIONER: We will all be confused if we don't. So yes, your application, irrespective of anyone else thinks, is granted so we will come back in a couple of minutes.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [10.24am]
RESUMED [10.39am]
**** STEPHEN THOMAS GOUGH XXN MS FORBATH
PN791
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Forbath.
PN792
MS FORBATH: Thank you, Commissioner. The witness has in front of him two documents, appendix 6 and appendix 7. Appendix 6 being the order by Commissioner O'Shea from 30 October 1997, being print 6358, and this was an order in regard to an arbitrated matter regarding the establishment of the rolled in rate of pay in Rural Ambulance Victoria and the witness also has in front of him now appendix 7 of the submissions lodged with the Commission on behalf of Metropolitan Ambulance Service and Rural Ambulance Victoria, being an order again by Commissioner O'Shea from 11 November 1997 being print P6607, this being an order regarding the aggregation of various elements of the rates of pay, the base rate, the CEP and paramedic allowances and the service increments and meal allowances thereby creating at that time a new section in the award and wages clause of the interim order, that is, 1(b), which were the wage rates that were to apply to Ambulance Service Victoria as distinct from 1(a) that were applying to the private sector. So that is the background of those two documents, Commissioner.
PN793
So, Mr Gough, you have those documents in front of you now?---Indeed.
PN794
Mr Gough, can you point to anything in either of those documents that would indicate that the incidental expenses allowance has been incorporated into either the aggregated rate of pay in 1997 or into the rolled in rate of pay in 1997?---No, I can't.
PN795
Thank you. Do you have any evidence that the incidental expenses allowance was at any stage integrated or incorporated into the rolled in rate of pay or the aggregated rate of pay?---No, I don't.
PN796
In your witness statement you say that the incidental expenses allowance was brought in to compensate rural student ambulance officers for shift penalties and weekend penalties when they were in attendance at the School of Training For Ambulance Officer Students, is that correct? Is that a correct summary of your position?---That is correct.
**** STEPHEN THOMAS GOUGH XXN MS FORBATH
PN797
Mr Gough, what is your evidence that that particular allowance was brought in to cover for the loss of shift penalties while the student ambulance officers were at the school? Where do you derive that view from?---The evidence that I have put before the Commission in my statement is drawn from discussions with parties who were present at the time or parties who were involved in or have knowledge of the discussions at the time for the establishment of that particular rate.
PN798
Are those people still employed by the Rural Ambulance Service, Royal Ambulance Victoria?---No, they are not. For the purposes of clarity, discussion has occurred with the former executive director of the Victorian Ambulance Services Association, Mr Geoff Coffey, who was former secretary of the AEA and is aware of those arrangements and negotiations that took place at that time. I also had extensive discussions with Mr Alan Pegg who was employed by the former regions in Victoria at the time this incidental allowance was struck.
PN799
And are you aware of any document that records the purpose of this particular allowance?---No, I am not.
PN800
Thank you, Commissioner, that is all I have to ask of Mr Gough.
PN801
THE COMMISSIONER: Any re-examination, Mr Flower?
PN802
MR FLOWER: No re-examination, Mr Commissioner.
PN803
PN804
PN805
MR FLOWER: Mr Pegg, your full name is Alan Raymond Pegg?---That is correct.
PN806
And you reside at 7 Aquila Court, Ballarat North?---Yes.
PN807
And what current employment do you hold with Rural Ambulance Victoria?---I am currently the Manager of Operational Support with Rural Ambulance Victoria.
PN808
And you have prepared a witness statement for the purpose of this case?---That is correct.
PN809
Can I show you a copy of this document, please. Stay there, Mr Pegg. Is that a copy of the witness statement you have had prepared for this proceeding?---That is correct. It has my signature and date on it.
PN810
Yes, I tender the document, if the Commission pleases.
PN811
THE COMMISSIONER: Is it true and correct?---It is.
PN812
Thank you.
PN813
PN814
MR FLOWER: Could Mr Pegg also be shown the exhibit that was the witness statement of Mr Gough, please.
**** ALAN RAYMOND PEGG XN MR FLOWER
PN815
Have you had cause to have a read of that particular witness statement, Mr Pegg?---No, I haven't as yet.
PN816
No. Can I take you to the material dealing with the incidental expenses allowance on page 2 of Mr Gough's witness statement and in particular paragraphs 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9. Can you read those statements in detail, please. Perhaps read the paragraph 10 as well while you are there, thanks?---Yes.
[10.49am]
PN817
Mr Pegg, I just want to ask you some short questions about incidental expenses allowance?---Yes.
PN818
And the introduction of the rolled in rate of pay. In your current or previous capacities with Rural Ambulance Victoria have you knowledge about the payment of the incidental expenses allowance and the introduction of the rolled in rate of pay?---I certainly have in my previous position as the Senior Station Officer of what was then the Murray District Ambulance Service this clause was introduced into the award at that time and was clearly introduced as a means of compensating rural students, students from District Ambulance Services outside of the metropolitan area for what was perceived to be a loss in penalty rates and weekend penalty opportunities as a result of attending the training centre for a five day week.
PN819
Now, as a result of - so that was introduced for the purpose you have just indicated. What effect industrially did the rolled in rate of pay have in relation to that particular allowance?---Well, recognising that the incidental expenses allowance was based on a compensation for a perceived loss to do with shift allowances and weekend penalties, the calculation of the rolled in rate in fact includes the calculation of shift allowances and weekend penalties and therefore in my view to pay it now in fact would be paying twice for the same thing.
**** ALAN RAYMOND PEGG XN MR FLOWER
PN820
So do you agree with the matters set out in the witness statement of Mr Gough?---In essence I do. I was interested to note in Mr Gough's statement that it suggests that this payment is made all the time in the paragraph 6 the way I read it and that too I would have thought would have been in contradiction to the way in which the allowance was intended to be paid anyway as it was only meant to be paid whilst the student was attending the AO2C.
PN821
If the Commission pleases, I have no further questions of Mr Pegg.
PN822
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Quigley, have you got any questions?
PN823
MR QUIGLEY: No, Commissioner.
PN824
PN825
MS FORBATH: Mr Pegg, do you have any knowledge as to whether the incidental expenses allowance was actually incorporated into the rolled in rate?---That is what I would have to admit, what I found a bit odd reading paragraph 6 because I wouldn't have thought that it was included in the rolled in rate simply because it is not a payment that is made consistently across the employee's I guess working year if you like. It was only intended to be paid while that they were at the AOTC, so I don't believe it is included in the rolled in rate at present as an individual allowance. My understanding is that people think and are in fact being paid it however still while they attend the school and I find that rather odd.
PN826
So just to clarify what you are saying there, would it be fair to conclude that the incidental expenses allowance is not incorporated by way of the formula that is used to create the rolled in rate but it is not incorporated into that formula?---Certainly when I do calculations on rolled in rate as you know we do, it isn't included.
**** ALAN RAYMOND PEGG XXN MS FORBATH
PN827
Okay. Has it been - was it included into the aggregation of the rate in 1997 when the meal allowances, the continuing education program allowances, that is the CEP allowances and the service increments were incorporated into one rate, was the incidental expenses allowance included into the rate of pay at that time?---No, It was not included and in fact the items you have itemised there are the only items that were included.
PN828
Thank you. Is the incidental expenses currently paid to Rural Ambulance Victoria student ambulance officers when they are in attendance at the Monash University Centre For Ambulance Paramedics where they go to do their training?---I would have to say, Mr Commissioner, that I don't know that, the answer to that question. I understand many people have claimed it. Whether we have actually been paying it or not I don't know. I would have to actually verify with that with the payroll department.
PN829
Thank you. Mr Pegg, do you have any documentary evidence as to the purpose of that incidental expenses allowance when it was first created?---I personally don't have any, no.
PN830
Are you aware of whether the matter was raised in Commission hearings or in any grievance between the union and the ambulance service at the time?---I am certainly not aware of it having been raised other than since the discussion on award simplification has come up.
PN831
Thank you. I don't have any further questions.
PN832
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Any re-examination, Mr Flower?
PN833
**** ALAN RAYMOND PEGG RXN MR FLOWER
PN834
MR FLOWER: Mr Pegg, in answer to a question from Ms Forbath you said that the fact that students were still getting paid the incidental allowance you thought, "Rather odd", what was your reason for thinking it was rather odd?---Well, I go back to the original intention of the allowance. The allowance quite clearly was to compensate people for the loss of access to shift allowance and weekend penalty payments which comes about by the fact that they are actually away from their normal workplace. They were at the training centre. They were working at the training centre on what was essentially a five day week. It was felt that they were being disadvantaged at that time by that and as a result the allowance came payable. The incidental expenses allowance became the thing that would compensate them and what I find odd now is that those issues now don't exist because the person is now - each individual is being paid based on the rolled in rate which includes all those penalties and allowances and it would seem to me in fact that someone is being remiss in not raising the issue and having it removed from the award at the time that change was made.
PN835
Thank you, Mr Pegg. I have nothing further.
PN836
THE COMMISSIONER: I just wanted to ask a question of the witness.
PN837
MR FLOWER: Certainly.
PN838
THE COMMISSIONER: What was the basis, do you know, for determining the rate for the incidental allowance?---The actual rate on which it would - the amount that it became? I have to admit I was not directly involved in that calculation but if I were being asked to do it I would in fact have based it on whatever the averages of penalties and allowances across the organisations affected and struck a rate based on that.
**** ALAN RAYMOND PEGG RXN MR FLOWER
PN839
So it was not an allowance which was meant to help meet the cost, for example, of laundering of clothes while people were at the training centre or any other experiences?---No, Mr Commissioner. This was clearly a payment - if you go into the history of it, the Metropolitan Ambulance Service as it is now, the employees in that organisation had a rolled in rate and the perceived inequity was that rural people got no compensation and that the metropolitan people were getting all these allowances included in the payments that were being made to them already on a regular weekly basis and as a consequence many of the rural people felt disadvantaged about that and in fact I remember having many debates in mess rooms with various ambulance officers of the year over this very issue and that was the purpose for which this rate was struck. No other purpose.
PN840
Thank you. Any questions which flow from my questions?
PN841
MR FLOWER: Nothing, sir, no.
PN842
PN843
THE COMMISSIONER: I should have given a direction to Mr Gough. You are not to talk to anyone who is yet to give evidence about your evidence or the evidence they are to give.
PN844
MR GOUGH: I understand that, Mr Pegg.
PN845
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Pegg.
PN846
PN847
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Flower.
PN848
MR FLOWER: Mr Mahony, your full name is Laurence Francis Mahony?---That is correct.
PN849
And you reside at 27 Mulquiney Crescent, Highton in the State of Victoria?---That is right.
PN850
What is your current employment with Rural Ambulance Victoria?---Assistant Fleet Manager.
PN851
And you have prepared a witness statement for the purpose of this proceeding?---That is correct.
PN852
Could I hand you a copy of that statement, please. Mr Mahony, you have made one amendment on the front page of that statement to the document that has been filed and served in this proceeding. Can you indicate to the Commission the change that has been made to that document?---Yes, I have just simply added the words south to south western region where that was my previous employer under ambulance.
PN853
Okay. So it wasn't western region, it is the south western region?---That is correct.
PN854
And you have made that change?---I have.
PN855
And you have signed the document on 24 June?---Yes.
PN856
And are the matters contained in that document true and correct?---Yes.
**** LAURENCE FRANCIS MAHONY XN MR FLOWER
PN857
PN858
MR FLOWER: Thank you, Mr Commissioner.
PN859
PN860
MS FORBATH: Mr Mahony, if I can take you to clause 5 of your statement?---Yes.
PN861
At clause 5 you say that following the work value increases that were received by station officers and ambulance officers in 1987/88 that fleet maintenance staff were separated and given a different pay classification. Are you saying there that the rate of pay for the fleet maintenance officers and mechanics changed at that time?---Remained the same. It was the station officers at the time who received a work value increase and at that stage it wasn't recognised that fleet staff at that stage were eligible for that increase because again it was a work value case. So fleet staff remained the same and station officers went onto a different pay rate, or they had the same classification but at that stage the fleet staff were given a different classification and remained on the same amount.
PN862
I see. When you say they were given a different classification what do you mean?---Well, under the pay classification and then it is just simply letters that indicate a pay rate and it went from LX2 to MC6, something like that.
PN863
So it was given a different pay code for - - -?---Pay code.
**** LAURENCE FRANCIS MAHONY XXN MS FORBATH
PN864
- - - the pay purposes?---That is correct.
PN865
And at that time did the fleet maintenance officers and the mechanics continue to receive the same service increments that the ambulance officers and the station officers received?---As far as I know, yes, but I couldn't be 100 per cent sure on all those increases. I think at the time it was recognised shortly thereafter that fleet staff were in need of a pay rise and they did receive one but it was an industry or something like that they called it, so it was something totally different.
PN866
Can I take you to clause 6 of your statement where you say you joined the ESSS and that is the Emergency Services Superannuation Scheme for purposes of the transcript. You say that you joined that scheme in 1986 and I put to you that you couldn't have joined in 1986 because the scheme didn't come into operation until 1987, would that be perhaps an error?---That possibly could be correct. I did this all from memory and I knew it was around that time that I did join the ESSS when it came into fruition and as soon as it kicked off I joined.
PN867
Right. And you went into the defined benefits scheme as you say in your statement. Can I put it to you that the level of contribution that you talk about in clause 6, that that level of contribution was determined by a person's earlier participation in the Hospital Superannuation Board Scheme?---That is correct.
PN868
But not whether they were operational or otherwise, is that correct?---That is correct.
PN869
Now, are you saying in that clause and generally that your status changed from being operational to being non operational as a consequence of the work value case that applied to ambulance officers and station officers?---Are you talking about clause 6?
**** LAURENCE FRANCIS MAHONY XXN MS FORBATH
PN870
Well, yes, in regard to clause 5 and clause 6?---Well, just regarding clause 6, it was basically at that stage that operational staff were given the opportunity of contributing a larger amount to their ESSS defined benefit and non operational staff, as myself at the time, were only allowed to contribute a maximum of 6 per cent.
PN871
But I put it to you earlier though, Mr Mahony, that the level of contribution was determined by when you had participated earlier in the Hospital Superannuation Board Scheme?---Yes.
PN872
That that was the determining factor as to what you could contribute?---That is true. For the people who were long serving and who were members of the previous Hospital Board Superannuation Scheme they were allowed to contribute at a higher amount because they had been in that scheme for some time, whereas people who had been working in the service, like myself, and then decided to join the ESSS, they then stated that operational staff could contribute at a higher rate than non operational staff. So in other words, myself at that stage it was a maximum of 6 per cent, but I think some of the operational staff could go as high as nine. I can't remember what the defining - why some guys could pay more, but I think it was because of their period of time in the service.
PN873
All right, we will leave that point. So at the time when you joined the scheme your employer under the Act would have had the right to nominate you as an operational employee or not. Do you know what your employer did at the time?---I am unaware as to whether we are able to be nominated either. I don't know.
PN874
You don't know, okay. Can I take you to clause 8. Now, I put it to you that the skills and the highly specialist knowledge of the fleet maintenance officer and mechanic has been a very important factor in including fleet maintenance officer representation on vehicle design committees and committees that have been sent up for the introduction of new vehicles and that sort of thing. Would you agree with that?---Absolutely, yes.
**** LAURENCE FRANCIS MAHONY XXN MS FORBATH
PN875
And on those committees you work alongside ambulance paramedics on those issues?---Yes, we use a member of the fleet staff in those committees for their technical knowledge which is necessary when we are looking at new vehicles or those types of issues.
PN876
And you would agree, would you not, that as well as having that specialist knowledge about the particularities of ambulance vehicles and their requirements that the fleet maintenance staff are also involved in doing design work and repair work on some of the equipment in the vehicle?---The design side of things has been taken away fairly much now because of regulations that anything designed now has to be designed by an engineer and certified, but the maintenance side of things, yes, definitely. As I say, all design work has sort of been taken away from the FMA level.
PN877
But you do the maintenance on the equipment, is that correct?---Not all equipment, only some. On the electronic medical equipment that is all done by specialists outside the organisation. Purely on things like stretchers, what have you, that the fleet staff perform those functions.
PN878
And would you agree that the work performed by the fleet maintenance officers is very much central to the ambulance paramedics being able to do their job effectively?---Well, of course at the end of the day it is important to have a vehicle that functions correctly but we do have a situation in MAS where that is done externally to the organisation and one could argue whether it is better or worse, but it is an important, yes, I agree.
PN879
Mr Mahony, one of the issues under debate here is whether the fleet maintenance officer and the mechanic should be appropriately located in the list of operational classifications in the award or whether they should be listed under the clerical and administrative classifications of the award. Do you think it would be, from your perspective, think it would be appropriate to place the mechanic and the fleet maintenance officers in a category of classifications that are clerical and administrative?---Well, I guess it is pretty hard to define that. I mean you would have to look at them all closely. But they have certainly moved away from the operational side, particularly from the way I see it anyway as far as performing operational functions. They just don't do it any more.
**** LAURENCE FRANCIS MAHONY XXN MS FORBATH
PN880
Would you classify them as clerical or administrative employees?---You are putting me on the spot I guess. Look, again it comes down to how, you know, how you would classify that. I dare say more appropriately they fall into that line of work but given the function now that we want them to use computers, etcetera, etcetera, but again I say they have probably moved away from that operation.
PN881
That wasn't my question?---Right.
PN882
My question was are they appropriately placed within a clerical and administrative set of classifications?---More appropriately than operational, yes.
PN883
That is all, thank you, Commissioner.
PN884
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Flower.
PN885
PN886
MR FLOWER: Mr Mahony, you said that they don't do operational work any more. What do you define as operational work?---Actually performing on road rescue patient work, you know, actually picking people up from somewhere, delivering them somewhere, as in patient work.
PN887
And previously did they do some of those duties?---We are talking 20 years ago those sorts of functions were performed in the outback type situations where there weren't enough people or paramedics to go around at the time. But I have been in the ambulance service for 17 years and I have never performed anything like that and my predecessor who was with the ambulance service for like 14 years before that, he never performed any of those functions either.
**** LAURENCE FRANCIS MAHONY RXN MR FLOWER
PN888
Thank you, Mr Mahony. Could you perhaps hand your witness statement to the Commissioner's associate.
PN889
PN890
MR FLOWER: That is the evidence for the services, if the Commission pleases.
PN891
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Flower. Yes, Ms Forbath. We might go off the record.
OFF THE RECORD
PN892
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Forbath.
PN893
PN894
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Forbath.
PN895
MS FORBATH: Mr Bowman, your name is Gordon Charles Bowman of 4 Bent Street, Leongatha?---Yes.
PN896
And you have prepared a witness statement for this hearing?---Yes.
PN897
Would you have a look at that statement. Is that your statement?---Yes, it is.
PN898
And is that your signature on page 4?---Yes, it is.
PN899
PN900
MS FORBATH: Perhaps if I could just ask the Commission, when the documents were lodged did you get a signed version of that?
PN901
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN902
MS FORBATH: Mr Bowman, do you agree or not with the argument that the communications call taker position is a clerical position?---No, I don't agree.
**** GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN XN MS FORBATH
PN903
And why is that?---Because communication call takers are part of the operational side of the ambulance service. They do part of what has always been the comms officers or control officers role as that has got bigger and more people have been needed in that area, that position has been divided and they have called the new position, the dividing up of the comms officer a call taker. They are in front line of taking phone calls, speaking to the public in terms of if need be giving first aid advice over the phone or emergency advice over the phone as to what to do until the ambulance does arrive. They are involved in taking details of the job and passing them to the dispatchers. Very much an operational role.
PN904
Right. In the past the base rate of pay of the communications call taker was linked to that of the emergency switchboard operator. Can you tell the Commission what an emergency switchboard operator is or was?---Well, I am not aware that there are any now but certainly when I started in the ambulance service there were emergency switchboard operators because I mean we are talking about old switchboards that used to, you know, plug in, pull out and plug in and phone calls would come into the ambulance service on one phone number and they would be emergency calls or admin calls and that person would then either plug it through to the control room if it was an emergency call or plug it through to the admin side of the building if it was an admin call. So they were front line people that took the emergency call until it was passed on down to the control room.
PN905
Was that role the same or different to that of the communication call takers today?---No, it is different. They would just ask the person, you know, what they were ringing the ambulance service for. It could be a subscription inquiry, an account inquiry that could want to talk to a particular person, you know, the superintendent, or they were reporting an emergency. I mean there was the 000 system in the city but even in the city when I started, I mean the ambulance service number was 6622533 and you rang that number whether you want subscriptions upstairs, you know, admin or whether you wanted emergency ambulance. You could ring 000 also but that number was the standard number that people used to ring for any part of the ambulance service.
**** GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN XN MS FORBATH
PN906
I am just wondering if Mr Bowman could be given a copy of the Stephen Gough's witness statement. Can I take you to that. Have you seen that statement?---Yes.
PN907
Can I take you to from paragraph 6 onwards. Do you agree or not with Mr Gough's statement that the incidental expenses allowance was introduced to compensate students for the loss of shifts penalties prior to the introduction of the rolled in rate of pay?---No.
PN908
Can you tell the Commission why in your experience and knowledge the incidental expenses allowance was introduced?---It was introduced to - as it says, it was an incidental expenses allowance to compensate rural students who had to stay at the school and were therefore involved in expenses that they wouldn't be involved in if they weren't at the school. The school provided board and accommodation but you got your three meals a day but if you wanted to eat outside that time whereas normally at home you could go into your own cupboards and get your food, that wasn't there. You didn't have that facility at the school so you needed to go and buy extra things to eat. If you had to pay to make phone calls back home they would be STD phone calls because you would be ringing long distance. The majority of time you were given a service vehicle to attend the school but you weren't allowed to use that during the week, so because you were in Melbourne you needed to use public transport then to go anywhere outside the school hours. Sometimes you just forgot to bring something with you. You had left home for a week and you had forgotten to bring something and you needed to go and buy it and so it was introduced to cover those sort of expenses that country people that were required to stay at the school whereas metropolitan people could travel home each night from the school weren't involved in.
PN909
And to your knowledge, Mr Bowman, has it been incorporated into the formula for calculating the rolled in rate?---No, it is not.
PN910
Now, do you agree or not that the incidental expenses allowance is obsolete?---No.
**** GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN XN MS FORBATH
PN911
Are you aware as to whether or not it is currently being paid to student ambulance officers in Rural Ambulance Victoria when they are attending the school?---It is still paid.
PN912
Mr Bowman, do you agree or not that the fleet maintenance officer and mechanic would be properly classified as a clerical or administrative position?---No, I don't agree.
PN913
And why is that?---Because they are a front operational position. They are involved in keeping the ambulance service going. I mean operations is about what the ambulance service does and that is going out, treating sick or injured people and then picking them up and taking them to a place for further medical attention. Without the fleet maintenance officers and mechanics that wouldn't happen. They are involved right from the beginning of the design of the vehicles. They are on the vehicle design committee with operational ambulance officers in the formation, design of the vehicles, how they will be constructed, put together. They are involved in solving any problems that we have with those vehicles and the equipment that goes in them. I mean there is a history of actually ambulance officers doing that work, but again when I started in the ambulance service ambulance officers used to change the oil, maintain the vehicles in their down time. It has always been regarded as part of the operational side of the service.
PN914
In regard to the issue of on call duty, the submissions from the Rural Ambulance Victoria and Metropolitan Ambulance Service propose that there would be no restriction on placing employees on call during the day, that is, from 9 am till 5 pm, and that there be no minimum period for which a person could be placed on call. Currently it is six hours and that is being sought to be removed. Could you tell the Commission what you believe the practical effect of that on employees would be?---On employees it would be total disruption. I mean it is either going to drive them to anakie or leave. I mean they are not going to work in those positions so the ambulance service is either not going to have an ambulance service in those small remote locations where they use on call because there is, I suppose for want of a better term, a contract of employment that people understand. They go into those places, they are going
**** GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN XN MS FORBATH
to work normal day shift and provide a service to a community that is not justified by workload, so therefore there is no afternoon/night shifts, they are prepared to put themselves on call in those out of hours times and be available to be recalled for the odd job that does come in in those out of hour times. But there is workload there in the day time and that is why they get an ambulance service in the first time. They need to be rostered on duty when the high workload is and covering the lower workload times by call.
PN915
One of the arguments that has been put by the Rural Ambulance Victoria and the Metropolitan Ambulance Service is that the removal of those provisions will be more efficient for the ambulance services. What is your response to that?---Well, I don't see how it can be more efficient. They cover a 24 hour period now with one person providing the ambulance service to that town for the whole of the 24 hours by rostering a person in normal working hours eight or 10 hours during the day and then on call for the other 14 or 16 hours. I mean unless they are - I know what the service's submission is on some other points, unless they plan to use one of their other provisions of part time work and have people only employed for three hours a day and on call for 21 days, I mean that would be more efficient because they would save money. They would only be paying the hourly rate for three hours, not eight hours.
PN916
Mr Bowman, in regard to part time employees do part time employees currently have the same or different entitlements in regard to public holidays compared with full time employees?---They are the same.
PN917
How does the public holiday clause operate in regard to part time employees?---Just the same as it does for full time employees, that you are entitled to add a day and a half for each of the 10 public holidays to your annual leave.
PN918
And how are they paid when they go on annual leave?---How are they paid? They are paid their rate of pay that they are receiving for whatever part time hours they are working.
**** GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN XN MS FORBATH
PN919
Mr Bowman, you have had a part time employee at your station where you are a station officer and what arrangements are made for part time employees at your workplace in regard to overtime? When they do they get paid overtime?---When they work hours outside their part time hours.
PN920
Okay. Can you elaborate on that for the Commission?---Well, the part time employee has an agreement about what hours they are going to work and on our roster we work a 38 hour week roster at our particular branch and the part time employee returned on half time, which is 19 hours, so that was her weekly rate or weekly hours of work. She also then had different shifts because we are a 24 hour branch, so she could be working an eight hour or a 10 hour or a 14 hour shift during the week. So if she worked longer than those eight, 10 or 14 hours she was paid incidental overtime as continuous time. If she worked near the end of her part time period just before she was to return to work, the service was a bit short of staff and I do recall being asked a lot to work, she didn't want to but there were an occasional shift that did suit her to work and she worked a full shift overtime and she was paid at overtime rates.
PN921
Okay, that is all. Thank you, Commissioner.
PN922
PN923
MR FLOWER: Mr Bowman, do you have your witness statement in front of you there?---Yes.
PN924
Could I take you to page 2 of the witness statement dealing with regional relieving officer. Do you have that passage there?---Yes.
PN925
Paragraph 11 you refer to your experience in Rural Ambulance Victoria about RROs. Do you see the first sentence there?---In which paragraph?
**** GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN XXN MR FLOWER
PN926
I am sorry, sir, I will go a bit slower. Paragraph 11?---Yes.
PN927
First sentence?---
PN928
There are only a small number of regional relieving officers appointed as such in RAV today.
PN929
Yes.
PN930
Okay. That is just my reference point for a short question. Do you have any experience in the way that the Metropolitan Ambulance Service runs their relieving function?---I have some experience.
PN931
Right. And what is that? Can you describe to the Commission what that is?---Well, as my employment with the AEA and as a person who is - Metropolitan Ambulance Service never had relievers prior to the formation of what was Ambulance Service - what did they call it, AS - anyway, they had a name previous to Metropolitan Ambulance Service when they first amalgamated with Peninsula Ambulance Service and also took over a number of peripheral country branches and that is where they got their relievers from and I was asked questions by the people in the AEA that were dealing with some issues with the Metropolitan Ambulance Service about relieving officers.
PN932
Right, okay. But in your employment as an ambulance paramedic and station officer have you ever worked with the Metropolitan Ambulance Service?---Well, Vic Civil Ambulance Service which was the forerunner to the Metropolitan Ambulance Service.
PN933
Right, and that forerunner, you were employed in that forerunner prior to the system you currently described about for peripheral relieving?---Yes, yes.
**** GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN XXN MR FLOWER
PN934
Now, there is some debate in this proceeding about the relevant definition for a regional relieving officer and you say, again referring to your witness statement that -
PN935
The definition being proposed by the union correctly describes the regional relieving officer.
PN936
Do you see that statement there?---Yes.
PN937
Excuse me, Mr Commissioner, I just want to put one aspect of our submission to the witness. Can I hand you a copy of this document. I am putting this to you so you can read it rather than have to listen to my waffle about it. Can you read the definition set out in the clause 2.3 in the italicised quote there, please, Mr Bowman?---Yes.
PN938
Now, as a matter of advocacy I have got to put this to you. That is the definition that the Metropolitan Ambulance Service contends for. Do you agree that that is an appropriate definition for RRO?---Well, I have a question mark about the last - I was going to say last sentence but I think it is all one sentence actually.
PN939
The last bit that starts "But"?---The last bit, yes.
PN940
So you wouldn't agree with that?---No.
PN941
But the rest of it you would?---Well, I am thinking of how actually the function does work. The word "Employ principally" is probably a problem too because I am aware that some regional - they are appointed regional relieving officers but I don't know that that is their principal reason for employment.
**** GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN XXN MR FLOWER
PN942
Right, okay. Thanks for that. Now, can I now take you to - can you go to page 3 of your witness statement, please. Paragraph 16 of the witness statement where you talk about fleet maintenance work and the historical basis for FMOs and mechanics. Now, in the second sentence you say:
PN943
Ambulance officers in the past often performed those duties.
PN944
?---Yes.
PN945
Sorry:
PN946
Now they don't and they have been separated off.
PN947
You have got an ambulance officer and FMO?---Yes.
PN948
And their functions don't cross over these days?---They don't cross over in the maintenance way. They still cross over the other way a little bit.
PN949
What do you mean by that?---That some FMOs do some ambulance work.
PN950
What do you call ambulance work?---Picking up patients.
PN951
And in your experience that still occurs, does it?---Well, when you say still occurs, I mean if we are being legal with it, it might not have occurred last week but it still is in the last 12 months. Yes.
[11.56am]
**** GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN XXN MR FLOWER
PN952
See, I put to you that years ago that in fact did occur far more frequently than it does now and that there was a far more interconnected role between FMOs and ambulance officers?---I think once people have been employed as FMOs it was obviously different to when ambulance officers did it and that was part and parcel of the same job. But I mean if we want to get pedantic about the word less frequently, probably it has occurred less frequently but I think as soon as they were employed FMOs it happened less frequently but still did happen.
PN953
See, what I put to you is that in the rural regions 10, 20 years ago, it was quite common for FMOs to perform ambulance officer type tasks. Do you agree with that or not?---I think that was the point I was trying to make. I would say as soon as they started employing FMOs I don't know that, you know, what does quite common mean. As soon as they were employed as FMOs, let us put percentages of it, you know, 95 per cent of their work was FMO and 5 per cent of their work was ambulance and I am saying now it might only be one or 2 per cent. So has it changed significantly, I am not sure.
PN954
See, what we contend on this end of the bar table is that FMOs at the moment do those maintenance tasks and never perform the duties of an ambulance officer?---Well, never is not correct.
PN955
Rarely? Is rarely correct?---It could be, yes. I mean we would argue what the meaning of rarely is, yes. Yes.
PN956
Okay. Well, I won't get into semantics. Do you regard it as desirable that FMOs perform even in a small way the duties of ambulance officers?---No, there should be enough ambulance officers to do it.
PN957
Right. Now, I want to take you to - you gave some evidence that is not in your witness statement about the incidental expenses allowance and what the current practice is in paying such allowance to rural students attending MUCAPS course. Now, you say then when they are go MUCAPS they are provided with a car to get there and get back, is that correct?---Yes.
**** GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN XXN MR FLOWER
PN958
But as you say, not to use around the town when they are here. They are given board?---Yes.
PN959
And they are given their basic three meals a day?---Yes.
PN960
What they don't get is the ability to go out, they are not compensated to go out to eat or to socialise in Melbourne?---No.
PN961
And in that regard they are no different from a metropolitan student attending the course, are they?---In terms of their compensation?
PN962
Yes?---No.
PN963
And you say that the allowance partly reflects the fact that because they can't use the car in the city they need to catch public transport around to do other things not connected with the course?---Yes.
PN964
And in that regard they are in no different position to an urban student, are they?---Well, an urban student wouldn't have to use public transport. They use their own transport.
PN965
And they use their own transport at their own cost. They still incur the cost to do those social activities or whatever they do?---Yes, sure. Yes.
PN966
And it may be public transport and it may be their own but they still have their cost?---Yes.
PN967
I have nothing further, if the Commission pleases.
**** GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN XXN MR FLOWER
PN968
PN969
MR QUIGLEY: Mr Bowman, you made some comments in your statement and under examination this morning about part time employment. Can you tell me, if there a certified agreement in place for employees at the Rural Ambulance Victoria?---A certified agreement for all employees?
PN970
Or ambulance officers?---There is an enterprise bargaining - a certified enterprise bargaining agreement, yes.
PN971
Yes, there is, is there?---Yes, yes.
PN972
Does that contain provisions relating to part time employment?---The newest one does.
PN973
What does it say in relation to the minimum number of hours that a part time employee has to work?---I will have to fail that test off the top of my head.
PN974
Do you know if it contains that clause that limits the amount of hours that a part time employee has to work each shift?---Yes, there was certainly negotiations about it because I was sitting at the EB table. There was negotiations about hours of work of the part time employees and - - -
PN975
If the union has a certified agreement with your employer on the minimum number of hours of work that a part time employee has to work would that satisfy the union on that position do you think, the minimum number of hours in which a part time employee must be employed per shift?---That are in that agreement?
**** GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN976
Yes?---Yes.
PN977
And does the certified agreement contain provisions relating to rostering?---Yes.
PN978
I will go back to the part time question. You referred in your statement at paragraph 13, if you have got that handy, that you arranged part time work for an employee who had returned to work after some time off. Was that during the period when a certified agreement was in place?---A certified agreement, yes. It wouldn't have been this one though.
PN979
How long has RAV had a certified agreement in place?---The first one was 95.
PN980
So the arrangements - sorry, I will go back. What was the basis of the arrangements or where did you gain guidance for the arrangements for the part time employment that you arranged for this employee that you have referred to?---They were from the certified agreement but they were from the maternity leave or the parental leave provisions.
PN981
Right. And the particular - you said there that the person that obtained the employment - I mean set up the part time employment for, that she also received the same public holiday entitlements to full time employees?---Yes.
PN982
Is that correct?---Yes.
PN983
And I understood you in answer to the question to Mr Forbath to suggest that that person received one and a half days for each of the relevant public holidays when she went on annual leave, is that the gist of what you said?---Yes.
**** GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN984
Did that include provisions - were there provisions in the certified agreement that detailed the public holiday provisions for part time employees?---There is provision in the annual leave clause of the certified agreement about part time employees.
PN985
Does the certified agreement go so far as to say that a part time employee who is not rostered on a public holiday will nevertheless obtain the benefit of that public holiday for the purposes of the annual leave clause of the award or in the agreement?---The public holiday clause says that these public holidays apply to all employees whether or not they work.
PN986
Yes, but does the certified agreement apply that to part time employees?---I am going to have to fail my knowledge of the award and without having it in front of me and reading it I can't answer that one.
PN987
The point I am coming to, Mr Bowman, is this, if you have a certified agreement that provides you with that protection do you need to have a clause in a safety net award to that effect?---Yes.
PN988
Why?---Because it is a safety net.
PN989
And what is your basis for saying that it is a safety net?---Well, certified agreements run out.
PN990
In what respect?---Well, they have a time limit.
PN991
Do they not in fact keep running until they are either replaced or cancelled?---Well, under current legislation.
PN992
And what other legislation is relevant?---Well, we did have State awards that got cancelled in terms of they were no longer were State awards. They became just the basis of a contract. Legislation can change.
**** GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN993
And are you suggesting that there are moves afoot to do that to federal legislation?---Well, legislation can change. I mean I don't - I mean that is why we have safety net underneath things.
PN994
It is the same legislation that governs certified agreements and safety net awards, is it not?---Yes.
PN995
You have made some comments at clause 22 of your statement about the methods of arranging hours of work. You have mentioned there about the essential need for practicability and certainty about rosters for shift workers, do you see that?---Yes.
PN996
Are those comments of yours about shift workers in general?---They are, yes. In 22, yes.
PN997
Okay. And you talk about ill health and stress related problems?---Yes.
PN998
Do you distinguish there between ambulance employees in the emergency and the non emergency areas of the industry?---In 22?
PN999
Yes?---No.
PN1000
So you are not suggesting that there is any high level of stress obtaining in the case of emergency - or people who work predominantly in the emergency area of the business?---I have commented on that in paragraph 23 that there is a - obviously we do work in emergency area, as you are saying, and that that compounds the amount of stress that ambulance officers are subjected to.
**** GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN1001
Yes. But you refer in clause 23 to the general nature of the work. What I am putting to you is are you distinguishing between those who work in the emergency and the non emergency side or are you saying no matter whether you are carting little old ladies around from one nursing home to another that that is the same stress as attending motor accident victims and all the gore and what have you that attends to those circumstances, because on the face of it you would think that they are essentially different types of work, aren't they?---Yes, they are different types of work and that is what clause 23 talks about. Clause 22 is talking about shift work.
PN1002
Yes. So what you are saying is in relation to clause 22, shift work no matter who does it leads to ill health and stress related problems?---Yes.
PN1003
And clause 23, you are saying that there stresses due to the nature of working in the ambulance industry?---Yes.
PN1004
The rosters that are in place where you work, how are they set?---Sorry, how are they set?
PN1005
Yes?---The roster we have, where I work, was developed in conjunction with the service in 1990. We only had days and afternoon shift and on call and the service wanted to, where I worked, Leongatha, to go 24 hours and they proposed that we have a night shift and so some different roster formats were drawn up and on agreement we got the roster format we are working now.
PN1006
Is that rostering arrangement enshrined in any sense in a rostering clause in the certified agreement?---No.
PN1007
Is your certified silent on the matter of rosters?---No.
**** GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN1008
What does it say about rosters?---Well, there is a long clause about rosters. It says they have to be posted 28 days in advance. This is paraphrasing it. That they will show the periods of on duty, off duty, show any periods of on call, that they can be varied in the event of sickness or unforeseen circumstance with seven days notice, that where practical rotating rosters should be exhibited.
PN1009
Is it fair to say that the terms of the rostering clause in the certified agreement were agreed to by the union?---Yes.
PN1010
And its members?---Yes.
PN1011
How does that stand with clause 21 of your statement?---My statement stands as it says. My involvement in the AEA has seen many examples of unilateral changing of rosters and shifts and nearly all of them have resulted in industrial disputes.
PN1012
But is that a reality now that you have a certified agreement in place that deals with rosters and presumably has been agreed to by the union?---It is still a reality.
PN1013
Are they concerns that you have raised about the operation of the certified agreement?---Have I raised concerns about the operation of it?
PN1014
Yes?---Well, certainly, yes, in some disputes we have certainly quoted that clause.
PN1015
And as I understand it the certified agreement you had a further agreement was made late last year, was it not?---That is right.
**** GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN1016
Was that clause changed?---No. My wording in clause 21, unilateral changing, doesn't necessarily mean it is breaching that clause in terms of outside the 28 days or outside the seven days. It is talking about with no negotiation with staff.
PN1017
Yes. The point I am putting to you, Mr Bowman, is that these submissions, these proceedings are in relation to a safety net award?---Yes.
PN1018
A lot of the stuff that is in your statement you go to the question of what is appropriate to be put into a certified agreement between your organisation or the organisation of which you are a member and I understand some comments you have made, may have had some official position in, and your employer, local arrangements that best suit those operations, do you agree?---Sorry, I got lost in the middle part of your sentence. What was the start?
PN1019
These proceedings - - -?---Yes, okay.
PN1020
In relation to which you have made a witness statement, go to a safety net award?---Yes.
PN1021
But a lot of what is contained in your statement deal with issues that are more properly set out in a certified agreement, or an Australian Workplace Agreement, or an agreement that can be made under the Act between employees and their employer or a union and those who employ their members, do you agree?---No.
PN1022
Why not?---Because I have got my employer sitting here arguing that these changes should take place and I am arguing against them.
PN1023
Yes, but these changes that we are referring to, Mr Bowman, are in relation to the underpinning award?---That is right.
**** GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN1024
Not to the agreement that you have in place?---I understand that.
PN1025
And whatever the outcome of these proceedings are your certified agreement will remain intact, won't it?---That is right.
PN1026
So what is the basis of your concern then?---Perhaps cynicism. My employer wants to change them and I don't think that should be an under - that should be my base conditions. I am here arguing against my employer and I understand you represent people who are not party to the certified agreement, but I am here because my employer wants to change my minimum conditions, if it was to fall back to that, and I am arguing against it.
PN1027
Can I ask you this, do you agree that rostering issues are best discussed at the local level and are by agreement?---Yes.
PN1028
I have no other questions, Commissioner.
PN1029
PN1030
MS FORBATH: Mr Flower for the Rural Ambulance Victorian and Metropolitan Ambulance Service put to you the definition that the MAS and RAV were seeking in regard to the regional reliever. Could the witness be given a copy of the union's application in regard to - - -
PN1031
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Forbath.
PN1032
MS FORBATH: He has got that in front of him?
**** GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN RXN MS FORBATH
PN1033
THE COMMISSIONER: Pardon?
PN1034
MS FORBATH: Has the witness - - -?---Yes.
PN1035
THE COMMISSIONER: The witness has got it.
PN1036
MS FORBATH: You have got that. And you have got it?
PN1037
THE COMMISSIONER: No, I haven't got it. Proceed anyway. No, my associate has gone to photocopy it. Don't worry.
PN1038
MS FORBATH: Actually, Commissioner, you have either got the amended application that I tabled this morning - - -
PN1039
THE COMMISSIONER: Or I have got the original application.
PN1040
MS FORBATH: Or my original application, because that part hasn't changed, you see, so I am - - -
PN1041
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1042
MS FORBATH: I just would like to take the witness and the Commission to page 4. So what you should have in front of you, Mr Bowman, is the definition being sought by the union and the definition being sought by the employer. Now, have you got both of those things in front of you?---Yes.
**** GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN RXN MS FORBATH
PN1043
Now, the differences between those two go to the word routine and I would like to ask you in response to Mr Flower's questions in this regard the distinction between somebody who performs these regional relieving duties or a routine basis and those who don't perhaps perform them on a routine basis. What is the difference between those?---I am not sure what the Oxford Dictionary says about the meaning of the word routine but when I answered Mr Flower and picked up the principally that I was concerned with because I am aware of regional relieving officers are employed and they are employed as a regional relieving officer but they only do relieve one branch. So they only relieve 16 weeks of the year they are required to live away from home, so I had a problem with saying that was their principal reason for employment. So I mean routine means people's annual leave.
PN1044
Can you explain that a little more clearly?---Everyone employed in the ambulance service is entitled to have leave. Now, at many places there is a mixture of employment models. Some places have enough staff to cover the other staff at that location's annual leave, other staff and it has been traditionally two man branches, although there are a few that are a little bit bigger, but two man branches. If one of the persons is away on leave they need a reliever to go and relieve that person otherwise the ambulance station is not going to work. It can't work with just one officer. He has to have his - they alternate, working a week, having a week off and so that is what I understand by the term - that is what regional relievers do. They go and fill in for someone who is having their annual leave. If someone is off sick they get someone to go and fill that shift on overtime. That is not relieving.
[12.23pm]
PN1045
Well, let me put it this way, are all regional relievers appointed positions?---Are all regional relievers appointed, yes.
PN1046
Are there any people who perform regional relieving duties from time to time but not necessarily all the time?---Yes.
**** GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN RXN MS FORBATH
PN1047
So there is two kinds? Is it fair to say then there are two types of people who perform regional relieving duties, that is, people who are permanently appointed to the position and other people who do that kind of work from time to time?---Yes.
PN1048
Mr Quigley asked you some questions in regard to the example at your branch of a part time employee having the same access to the public holiday provisions as a full time employee and he asked you some questions about whether the example that you were drawing your evidence from had occurred during the period of the current enterprise agreement. Can you clarify whether that is so or not?---Yes, that was what I picked up, that he was asking me about the current agreement and it didn't happen under the current agreement.
PN1049
Right. Now, under the previous enterprise agreements prior to the one that is called the RAV Certified Agreement 2001, under the previous enterprise agreements was there - other than under the parental leave provisions, were there specific provisions for part time employment?---There was a part time clause but there wasn't provisions about what that - provisions that would apply to those people.
PN1050
Right. Under the interim order, as distinct from the enterprise agreement, under the interim order is there any distinction between how the public holiday clause applies between full time and part time employees?---Under the?
PN1051
Under the award, under the interim order. Forget about the enterprise agreement, just under the interim order?---No.
PN1052
Okay. Under your current enterprise agreement is there any distinction in how the public holiday clause applies to part time employees as compared with full time employees?---No.
**** GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN RXN MS FORBATH
PN1053
Again Mr Quigley asked you some questions about whether - he asked you a question whether rosters were best discussed at a local level and negotiated at a local level and then an agreement derived out of that and you answered yes to that question. Do you say that that therefore means that there should be no provision in an award that deals with rosters?---No.
PN1054
Thank you. Commissioner, I have got nothing else.
PN1055
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. You are excused, Mr Bowman. You are directed not to talk to anyone. There is only Mr McGhie to come, is there?
PN1056
MS FORBATH: Mr McGhie.
PN1057
PN1058
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Forbath.
PN1059
PN1060
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Forbath.
PN1061
MS FORBATH: Mr McGhie, your name is Stephen John McGhie of 105 Somerville Street, Buninyong?---That is right.
PN1062
Mr McGhie, you have prepared a witness statement for this hearing, is that correct?---That is correct, yes.
PN1063
Would you have a look at that document that I have just handed to you. Is that your statement?---Yes, it is.
PN1064
And is that your signature on page 4?---Yes.
PN1065
Thank you. I tender that. Can I just ask you, Commissioner, if you have a signed version of that?
PN1066
PN1067
THE WITNESS: Can I just make a comment about the statement? There is just one amendment I would like to make if I can.
PN1068
MS FORBATH: Yes, I was going to come to that?---Sorry.
PN1069
Now, there is one amendment to the witness statement at clause 12.
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE XN MS FORBATH
PN1070
THE COMMISSIONER: Right, you put it to the witness and he will tell us what amendments he wishes to make?---Just in clause 12 when I made the statement I referred to the fact that my knowledge of the lengths of shifts in operational areas was no less than eight hours. I have recently been informed that there is a trial roster being performed at the Northcote NMAS that are currently undertaking a trial of a seven hour shift. It is my understand that that trial will be finalised within the next few weeks.
PN1071
Thank you.
PN1072
MS FORBATH: Mr McGhie, how would you describe the role of a communications call taker?---Are you talking about as their job, what sort of job?
PN1073
Yes?---Communications call takers work in the communication centres across rural Victoria, closely aligned to the dispatchers and work hand in hand with the dispatchers. They receive all incoming phone calls into the communications centres. They take all the details that is required to be recorded and in some of the communication centres they do that by computer information and others it still may be done by a manual process of filling in some cards. Those details are briefly triaged and handed on to the dispatchers who then dispatch ambulance resources that are required to that incoming call. They also deal with liaison with hospital networks and doctors surgeries and other emergency services under the direction of the dispatchers.
PN1074
Can I table a job description. Mr McGhie, can you describe the document that has just been placed in front of you?---Yes, the documents are position description for call takers for Rural Ambulance Victoria. The date of issue on the bottom is the - the latest date was 26 June 2002.
PN1075
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE XN MS FORBATH
PN1076
MS FORBATH: Mr McGhie, has the role of the communications call taker been the subject of discussions between the parties in recent times?---Yes, it has.
PN1077
In what context?---How far back do you want me to go?
PN1078
I said in recent times?---Okay.
PN1079
THE COMMISSIONER: Your life time, Mr McGhie?---No, you don't want me to go back that far. In recent times there has been consultant reports done for Rural Ambulance Victoria in regard to staffing profiles in communications centres. This arose out of a recommendation out of a coroner's inquest and that consultant's report refers to the staffing profiles in each communications centre and the union and RAV have been involved in negotiations in regard to job descriptions both for dispatchers and call takers and also the working relationship between the two and also the staffing profile in those areas.
PN1080
MS FORBATH: And the job description that you have got in front of you, when was that finalised and in what context?---There is a working group that brings together dispatchers from around rural Victoria and some call takers and representatives from management of RAV and the union and this document was finalised - I am assuming it was finalised on 26 June. I can't recall the last meeting date but I am pretty sure it was 26 June.
PN1081
THE COMMISSIONER: We will see what the transcript makes of that.
PN1082
MS FORBATH: Mr McGhie, having a look at that job description for the call taker, how would you describe the clerical content of that job description? Can we just forget about it? I thought I switched it off.
PN1083
THE COMMISSIONER: No, you can switch it off. Do you want to ask the question again.
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE XN MS FORBATH
PN1084
MS FORBATH: How would you describe the clerical content of that job description?---Of the job description or the job?
PN1085
Contained in this job description?---Well, the way I interpret it is that there is very little clerical content in regard to the call takers jobs apart from obtaining all the relevant information from the incoming calls, and as I have said - - -
PN1086
MR QUIGLEY: Mine has got an on/off switch?---I think you press the end button.
PN1087
MS FORBATH: I did press the end button?---That is it. Yes, so it is in regard to obtaining the relevant information and documenting that relevant information, whether that be by computer or whether that be by manual process.
PN1088
Are there aspects of this job description that you would describe as operational or are there none?---I would say yes. I certainly think in the key accountabilities and major activities receiving and triaging all calls is an operational aspect of the job. Assistance in response to radio request is an operational aspect to the job. Liaising with other emergency services is certainly an operational aspect. Recording the information I would think is certainly an operational aspect because there is a certain standard that is required and obviously the call takers have to go through a level of training and become proficient in their knowledge and understanding of the information being received and what should be recorded.
PN1089
What is the intent of the Rural Ambulance Victoria in regard to the training of communications call takers?---Can I put a question back to you, is that possible? Can I seek clarification on that?
PN1090
Yes?---Are you talking as far as the current - - -
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE XN MS FORBATH
PN1091
Perhaps if I put it to you this way, has there been a training program for communications call takers in the past? Is that going to change for the future?---My understanding is yes, there has been a training program in the past, although I am not aware that everyone has been put through that program and there has been a proposed new training package put together and the union was briefed on that on our last working group meeting.
PN1092
Do you agree or not that the argument being put forward by the ambulance services that the communications call taker is a clerical position?---No, I do not agree.
PN1093
And why is that?---Because the call takers work in an operational area. I believe they do operational duties. They certainly work very closely with the dispatchers in the communications centre. They work operational rosters. They are covered by operational conditions and allowances and things like that out of the award and the very nature of their work is core to the ambulance work and that is that the first step in the chain of ambulance work and that is that they receive all of that relevant information.
PN1094
Are communications call takers in receipt of the rolled in rate of pay?---Yes, they are.
PN1095
Do the communications call takers receive the operational service increment payments?---Yes, they do.
PN1096
Are emergency call takers in the defined benefits scheme?---Yes, they are.
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE XN MS FORBATH
PN1097
There has been some submissions put that the pay rate for a communications call taker was initially in terms of its base rate based on an emergency switchboard operator. Can you tell us whether an emergency switchboard operator is the same or different type of job to the communications call taker?---It is a different job. Emergency switchboard operator was a job where generally speaking there was only one central switchboard that dealt with basically all calls coming into the ambulance service and they would have referred those calls directly off to the communications centres if it was a 000 call or a relative or a patient requiring ambulance services.
PN1098
In regard to the ability of communications call takers and fleet maintenance officers becoming part of the Emergency Services Superannuation Defined Benefits Scheme access to that scheme today is for operational employees. What evidence do you have of the powers of the employer to determine who is operational and who isn't?---Well, it is my understanding that who determines who goes into the defined benefits scheme is left with the employers and depending on the employer's interpretation and the status that they place on a particular position is what is now gazetted with the Government and ESSS to allow people to enter the defined benefits scheme.
PN1099
So are you saying that the power resides with the employer to determine who is an operational employee?---That is right.
PN1100
And have they been in recent times determined that if any communications call takers are to be defined operational and going to the defined benefits scheme?---In recent times?
PN1101
Yes?---I am not aware of in recent times like within the last year or two, but I am certainly that, you know, in the mid 90s/early 90s that that was defined that they were certainly entitled to be in the defined benefits. I am aware in, not communications call takers, but other communications officers that have these positions that have recently been negotiated that had been agreed that they would be included in the defined benefits scheme and that is an issue that I recently negotiated with MAS.
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE XN MS FORBATH
PN1102
Mr McGhie, Mr Gough gave evidence to the Commission that the incidental expenses allowance was - - -
PN1103
THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Forbath, I think you are moving on - sorry to interrupt you. You are moving to a new subject now, are you?
PN1104
MS FORBATH: Yes.
PN1105
THE COMMISSIONER: It might be a convenient time I think for us to adjourn. We will adjourn until quarter past two. Before I leave, Mr McGhie, I must direct you not to discuss your evidence with anyone who has given evidence, nor with Ms Forbath.
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.46pm]
RESUMED [2.18pm]
STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE:
PN1106
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Forbath.
PN1107
MS FORBATH: Mr McGhie, just before the break we were moving into some new questions about the incidental expenses allowance so I will continue with those now. Mr McGhie, Mr Stephen Gough from Rural Ambulance Victoria has made statements to the Commission that the incidental expenses allowance was introduced some time ago to compensate students for the loss of shift penalties prior to the introduction of the rolled in rate when those students were attending the Ambulance Training School. Do you agree with those statements by Mr Gough?---No, I don't.
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE XN MS FORBATH
PN1108
Can you offer any explanation to the Commission as to why the allowance was introduced?---Well, it is my understanding that it was introduced as an out of pocket expenses allowance in regard to, at that stage, the country students or rural students when they travelled down from their rural services. Some had to travel, you know, vast distances, but there were times that they couldn't bring all of the requirements that they required at the school and they certainly needed some incidental payment to cover for things like extra travelling such as public transport and things like that because at that time they were given vehicles from the rural services to travel down but they weren't allowed to utilise those vehicles during the week or the weeks of their attendance at the college. So that incidental expenses paid for potentially public transport or any other out of pocket expenses.
PN1109
Is there any evidence as far as you are concerned, Mr McGhie, as to whether or not the incidental expenses allowance has been incorporated into the rolled in rate?---I have been involved in the rolled in rate for the rural service since it was conceived and there is definitely no evidence to show that the incidental expenses allowance has been included in the rolled in rate.
PN1110
What is your role in regard to the rolled in rate, both the formulation of it from time to time with Rural Ambulance Victoria?---Well, since we won the right to have a rolled in rate in rural services or now RAV, since 1995, the enterprise agreement in 1995, both myself and Mr Bowman were on the working party to put together the formula in conjunction with management from the rural services. Since then I have been the union representative that has worked both with MAS and RAV in doing the - compiling of the roster data base which then underpins the calculations for the rolled in rate. So I am, I suppose at this stage, the person from the union that basically assists the management from the services in trying to agree on a rolled in rate every time it needs to be recalculated.
PN1111
Mr McGhie, is there any difference between the wording of the incidental expenses allowance as it appears in the award which is now under consideration in this case and the wording of the incidental expenses allowance in the enterprise agreement, current enterprise agreement as it covers Rural Ambulance Victoria?---I am not aware that there is any difference.
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE XN MS FORBATH
PN1112
Sorry?---I am not aware that there is any difference.
[2.22pm]
PN1113
Are you aware as to whether or not the incidental expenses allowance is currently paid to rural students who are employees of Rural Ambulance Victoria when they attend the ambulance training school?---Yes, it is currently paid.
PN1114
Mr McGhie, in regard to fleet maintenance officers, the question before the Commission is whether or not the fleet maintenance officers and the mechanics should be moved from the operational classification sector of the award where it currently is into the clerical and administrative part of the award. From your knowledge and your experience, is there any components of the fleet maintenance officer and mechanics job that could be described as clerical or administrative?---Not that I am aware of.
PN1115
What is the nature of the work of a fleet maintenance officer? What do they primarily do?---Well, primarily they are there to maintain and repair ambulance vehicles and equipment and to also assist - and they are heavily involved in it now through a working group - and that is that they assist in the development of new ambulance vehicles and also in the securing of equipment in vehicles. They make up brackets and things like that that secures the equipment in the vehicles.
PN1116
And what is their link with the work that the ordinary ambulance paramedic does?---Well, I think their link is fundamental to the ambulance paramedic, that they can't respond to their work unless their ambulance vehicles are in a safe and appropriate state to respond in and they work very closely with ambulance paramedics. They liaise between the different groups on the vehicles and the problems they are having with the vehicles and they may even respond out to the field to fix up a vehicle that might be required to be repaired at that time, even during a response to a case, so there is a close relationship between the FMOs, the fleet maintenance officers and the mechanics and ambulance paramedics to firstly allow for that platform of work, being the vehicle, to be ready to respond.
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE XN MS FORBATH
PN1117
There has been evidence given in this matter that in the past ambulance officers used to perform some maintenance work on the vehicles and that there was a cross-over between the two types of work. Are you aware in recent times as to whether or not fleet maintenance officers have been involved in any ambulance paramedic duties as such?---Yes, I am.
PN1118
Can you explain to the Commission what has occurred?---Well, I have been recently involved with some fleet maintenance officer meetings with RAV management in regard to a new position that they are creating and a fleet maintenance officer raised at one of the meetings that he was required to respond with an ambulance paramedic to attend a case because he was the only person available to assist that ambulance paramedic and he stated to everyone at that meeting that he had responded on three or four occasions in the last 12 to 18 months to assist ambulance paramedics in their work.
PN1119
In regard to the issue of on call duty, Mr McGhie, you are aware that evidence has been put to - submissions have been put, I should say, to the Commission by Rural Ambulance Victoria, Metropolitan Ambulance Service, that there be no restriction placing employees on on call duty during the day, that is from nine until five and also to remove the minimum six hours by which you can put someone on call, those provisions being currently in the existing award. What would be the practical effect of that occurring if it did go into the award?---Well, that would cause a major change throughout the industry and, in particular, at those on call branches that it affected, to the point that people have been appointed to locations, mainly rural and outer-lying small country towns that do on call. People have either moved into those townships on the basis that they have been appointed to those positions under the current on call provisions. If those on call provisions were to be changed, it could mean that some of those people may have to be relocated because they wouldn't wish to remain under the new provisions. It certainly would affect them financially, so I would think that it would be a huge change within the industry.
PN1120
What is your view about whether or not the current arrangements are efficient for the service or not efficient for the service as the case may be?---I think the current arrangements can be - they are as efficient as they can be with the amount of resources that the Ambulance Service currently has. I would suggest that the on call issue is not the issue. It is the lack of resources that we have to deal with, having people available to respond to cases.
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE XN MS FORBATH
PN1121
Mr McGhie, in regard to part-time work, are you aware of any distinctions between the application of the public holidays clause between part-time and full-time employees?---No, I am not. It is my understanding that part-time employees still have their public holiday provisions accrued, a day and a half to their annual leave.
PN1122
Thank you.
PN1123
PN1124
MR FLOWER: Mr McGhie, can I ask you some questions on this issue of the call taker classification?---Yes.
PN1125
I am not sure what the exhibit number is.
PN1126
THE COMMISSIONER: F4, was it?
PN1127
MR FLOWER: F4. I am sorry, Mr Commissioner.
PN1128
Do you have that in front of you, Mr McGhie?---Yes, I do.
PN1129
Right. Now, it is your contention in the evidence that you give, contrary to what my clients say, that that is an operational role rather than a clerical or administrative role. That is your evidence, is it not?---That is correct.
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE XXN MR FLOWER
PN1130
And I just want to explore firstly what the nature of the position is and it wasn't quite clear, but I think I understand your evidence is that there are two types of, if you like, receivers of the initial call-out for an ambulance and that is the communication call takers and then there is a second category known as dispatchers. Is that correct?---There are two positions within the communications room. One is a communications call taker which receives all the in-coming calls. The dispatcher is responsible for dispatching and that is the ambulance paramedic qualified person.
PN1131
Right, so within the communications centre you have one category that is clearly - if I can put it this way, clearly operational in the sense that they have and require clinical knowledge and that is the dispatcher?---Clearly operational on the basis that they are an ambulance paramedic. There has never been a question that they are operational.
PN1132
Right, whereas in the case of the communications call taker, that person is not a paramedic and does not have clinical qualifications?---They do have some clinical qualifications. They are required to hold a first aid certificate, right, but they don't have clinical qualifications to the same degree as ambulance paramedics.
PN1133
Right. Can you point to the part of F4 where it is required that those people have a first aid certificate?---Well, I don't believe it is in this document.
PN1134
So it is not part of the formal job qualification?---Well, it is not in this document, but I can assure you that there has been a requirement that they hold a first aid certificate.
PN1135
And can I take you to that document? You or your advocate has made something of the use of the term triage which is contained at page 2 of the document. Do you see where it is said there?---Yes.
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE XXN MR FLOWER
PN1136
Now, the document that has been tendered seems to have been marked up to indicate the amendments that were made between the various drafts. Is that right?---That is correct.
PN1137
So the words "and triage" have been added to the relevant clause there? That is what the underlining means?---That is right, yes.
PN1138
And the words crossed out "including the determination of the nature and extent of urgency of each call" has been deleted?---Yes, because that is what triage means.
PN1139
Well, that was going to be my next question and thank you for assisting me in that regard. So when you say triage does mean determining the nature and extent of the urgency of each call?---Definitely, yes.
PN1140
Right, it doesn't mean, as it may in for example a nursing sense, that any fine clinical judgment is required in relation to the calls that come in to those employees?---No. Call takers are not making a clinical judgment, but they have to have an understanding of what is a more important case, given that they may have more than one case on their books at any particular time, so they have to give the more urgent case to the dispatcher in a prompt manner.
PN1141
In terms of the duties of a communication call taker, they have to make some record of what they receive?---That is correct.
PN1142
And they take down the patient details?---That is correct.
PN1143
And they take down, in order to triage, within your term, they take down what - well, injury or illness or condition that the ambulance service is required for?---That is correct. They take down the relevant information that is required and there is a set process that they ask questions of the incoming callers.
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE XXN MR FLOWER
PN1144
Right, and they take the client's details - sorry, the patient's details in terms of addresses, etcetera?---Yes, they do.
PN1145
And to do that, how do they record that? You say sometimes they use cards and sometimes they use electronic - - -?---Yes, unfortunately we have a bit of a lack of consistency between control rooms throughout rural Victoria where some of them have some computer assistance which they call the CIS system which is a computer information system which the call takers can then punch in the details to that system which then starts to produce cards out of the printer. In other rural control rooms, they have just a manual process where the details are documented on a card.
PN1146
And what happens to them once they are recorded? If you have got a computer, it just stays in the database, does it?---Yes, it does.
PN1147
And if you have got - - -?---Well, there is a print-out, sorry, there is a print-out from the computer, but also it would remain in the database.
PN1148
And what responsibility does the CCT employee have to either produce the print-out or to maintain the records that the print-out constitutes?---Well, my understanding, once the case is dealt with and handed over to the dispatcher, the details then would be forwarded off to the managers who would then forward it off to the accounts department, I would assume.
PN1149
But who creates them in the first instance? Is that the communications call taker?---The print-out you are talking about from the database?
PN1150
Yes?---I would think they do.
PN1151
Does the communications call taker do anything other than receiving calls in relation to the dispatch of an ambulance?---Yes.
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE XXN MR FLOWER
PN1152
What sort of calls do they receive?---As I said before, they liaise with other emergency services organisations and that could be under the direction of the dispatcher, that they have to arrange other services to attend an incident. They would liaise with hospitals, doctors' surgeries, nursing homes. They would also assist the caller in giving initial first aid advice, so, yes, that is some of the work that they could do.
PN1153
I don't want to put words in your mouth too much, so disagree with me if you must, but albeit that you regard them as an operational employee, there are significant aspects of that job description that involve what in the ordinary sense would be regarded as clerical or administrative work?---No more significant than an ambulance paramedic or a dispatcher.
PN1154
Can I ask the question again? Does that mean that there is significant clerical or administrative work involved?---No.
PN1155
You regard it as minimal, do you?---I don't regard it as significant. That doesn't make it minimal either, but I don't regard it as significant. I don't see it as their number 1 priority in their job.
PN1156
Now, can I ask you some questions in relation to the incidental expenses allowance and Ms Forbath asked you some questions in relation to the connection between that allowance, the rolled in rate and whether it is still paid and so forth?---Yes.
PN1157
Getting to the last bit of it first, you have said that it currently is being paid to rural students that are attending MUCAPS. Is that being paid pursuant to the certified agreement?---The most recent certified agreement are you talking about?
PN1158
Yes?---Yes, well, it has been paid since the rolled in rate has been in place for rural Victoria and that has been since 1996.
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE XXN MR FLOWER
PN1159
But that 1996 practice is incorporated into the current enterprise agreement?---That is right.
PN1160
Now, leave aside what it represents for one moment, if you can. When a rural student attends MUCAPS, on what basis are they paid? Are they paid on an ordinary time earnings basis?---They're paid their normal weekly wage which is an ordinary time earnings which currently is their rolled in rate of pay.
PN1161
Right, and do you have any experience of what happened prior to the rolled in rate of pay being introduced for rural students?---Yes, I do.
PN1162
And what rate were they paid prior to the implementation of the rolled in rate of pay?---Any time anyone was off the roster in rural services, apart from annual leave where there was a projected roster, they went back to their base rate.
PN1163
Right, so whilst they were down at MUCAPS or the old institution, the name of which escapes me for the moment, they wouldn't be earning any increments that they might be earning if they were working actively on the job?---That is true.
PN1164
Now, in relation to fleet maintenance officers, you were asked some questions about whether they - I will come back to this in a moment, but just to put it into context, you gave some evidence about fleet maintenance officers in one instance at least that you know that were performing ambulance officer duties. Do you have any knowledge as to what the practice was, particularly in rural areas in the past, whether ambulance officers would assist in the maintenance of vehicles? Did that ever occur?---I don't have any knowledge of that, no.
PN1165
Okay, and conversely, in the past can it be said that fleet maintenance officers or mechanics might have assisted paramedics in their duties in certain country areas?---They might have assisted paramedics in their duties as an extra pair of hands and as assistance as a second officer, yes.
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE XXN MR FLOWER
PN1166
And the example you gave of recent practice was precisely that, was it?---Well, it would have been precisely that, because there wasn't an ambulance paramedic available, so it was the only resource available to assist the ambulance paramedic.
PN1167
So there was one available, but that person in that case needed assistance so they had to resort to an FMO?---They were desperate, so they had to resort to an FMO.
PN1168
Sure, and how long ago was that?---Well, as I have said, for this particular person, he stated it has happened three or four times in the last 18 months.
PN1169
Okay, well, that was the answer I wanted and that you would regard as quite an unusual occurrence, wouldn't you?---Well, it is not unusual that ambulance paramedics are left on their own to respond to cases and it is not unusual that ambulance paramedics are desperate to get a second pair of hands to help them. Whether it be the FMO or whether it be other resources available, it would depend on how desperate they are at the time.
PN1170
FMOs do not have paramedic qualifications, do they?---They don't have paramedic qualifications. Some may have a first aid certificate that is accepted by the Ambulance Service to respond as a casual ambulance paramedic and some do that, I believe, in their own time.
PN1171
But their principal obligation of employment is what you describe, maintain the vehicles, maintain sometimes the equipment in the vehicles, consult on new vehicles or new equipment, etcetera, and sometimes make brackets, etcetera, to fix equipment in vehicles?---That is correct.
PN1172
That is what they do?---That is correct.
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE XXN MR FLOWER
PN1173
They are not required as a matter of their job description to act as an ambulance paramedic?---That is correct.
PN1174
And therefore it would be regarded as not ideal that they do so?---That is correct, yes.
PN1175
And, indeed, you regard it as perhaps a symptom of a lack of resources across the Ambulance Service as a whole?---There is no question about that. We say every ambulance that responds should respond with two ambulance paramedics.
PN1176
Now, would it assist a response with two ambulance paramedics if the restrictions on the on call roster were lifted in the manner provided by - contended for by the services?---No.
PN1177
It would enable them more flexibility in rostering someone who was on call to that particular situation, would it not?---Not necessarily, no.
PN1178
Why not necessarily?---Because they might only roster one person there. They may not roster two people there, as they currently do. They only roster one person, even with the current roster configuration that we have got.
PN1179
Now, you have given some evidence in your statement on the issue of the regional relieving officer. These questions are directed at you perhaps more from the situation of the MAS rather than the RAV, so I am wearing two hats here a little bit?---That is all right.
PN1180
The MAS at the moment don't employ RROs, do they?---Not at the moment, no.
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE XXN MR FLOWER
PN1181
And they have a system of, to the extent that their peripheral stations sometimes need relieving, they have a system of rostering on or an ad hoc system of appointing those people on a temporary basis to relieve at those stations, do they not?---No.
PN1182
How would you describe the system in relation to peripherals?---MAS had regional relieving officers in the early 90s and the last two regional relieving officers, one of them was promoted to now currently a team manager and the other one left a couple of years ago, so they were the last two. Since there has been an upgrading of staff in peripheral branches in MAS - they have now been upgraded to five staff - MAS have a belief that because they have put that fifth staff member in at those peripheral branches that they are self relieving. They are for annual leave purposes, but they are not for any other incidental issues such as sick leave and WorkCover and things like that, so what happens is MAS run a reserve roster where they have what would deem to be in broad definitions spare staff. They may ask someone to go and relieve at a peripheral branch, or not relieve, they may ask someone to go and work at a peripheral branch for a period of time. That person may agree or may not agree, or they would fill it on a day to day basis from their reserve lines.
PN1183
And if they utilise those reserve rosters as you call them on a day to day basis and those persons are required to live away from home, they as a matter of course get paid the living away from home allowance under the award or agreement, don't they?---If they are required to live away from home, they would be paid the living away from home allowance, but if they are doing it on a day to day basis, that is not how it is done because those people would be rostered to either a 10-hour or a 14-hour shift and they would go and work at that location. They would start and finish either at their reserve branch or they would go straight to that location and be paid a travelling allowance.
PN1184
I have nothing further, if the Commission pleases.
PN1185
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN1186
MR QUIGLEY: Thank you, Commissioner.
PN1187
Mr McGhie, your colleague, Mr Bowman, was asked a question in re-examination if there was any distinction in the award, the 1994 interim order, probably to be more correct, between full-time and part-time employees in relation to public holidays and he said there was no distinction. It is a fact, is it not, that the 1994 interim order doesn't contain any provision relating to part-time employees in relation to public holidays or for that matter anything else in terms of what I might call a type of employment clause which distinguishes between - - -?---As a part-time clause, are you talking about?
PN1188
Yes?---There is no part-time clause, apart from the parental leave provisions.
PN1189
Yes, so to be asked whether there was any distinction between part-time employees and full-time employees for public holidays, it is a bit of a non-question, really, isn't it, if there is no provision that deals with that?---Apart from again the parental leave.
PN1190
Can you direct us where the parental leave clause is in the award?---I haven't got the award with me.
PN1191
You have been asked by Ms Forbath whether you were aware of any distinctions in relation to part-time employees regarding public holidays and you said there was no distinction. In what respect were you talking there, distinctions as between what employers might do as a matter of their policies or as contained in certified agreements with employers?---Yes, as contained in certified agreements and a distinction in regard to was there any difference between part-timers and full-timers was how the public holiday provisions would apply.
[2.50pm]
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN1192
You would appreciate, wouldn't you, in your position within the union that there is a world of difference between what might be contained in a safety net award and what might be agreed between an employer and a union to go into a certified agreement?---Yes, there is a difference.
PN1193
So the answer that you were giving in relation to there not being any distinction between entitlements of part-time employees regarding public holidays couldn't relate to the award distinction because there is no provision in that respect, is there?---That is correct.
PN1194
You mentioned in paragraph 9 of your statement that in the private sector, some workplace agreements have made special arrangements for part-time work?---Yes.
PN1195
And that would also be the case, would it not, that there not being an award clause in relation to part-time employment, that part-time employment arrangements in the workplace would be by agreement with the employer of some kind, would it not?---That is correct.
PN1196
In paragraph 12 you say that you are not aware of any part-time employees working shifts of less than four hours. Again, those arrangements would be arrangements that have been made as a result of some form of agreement. Would that not be the case?---That is generally the case, yes, that is right, but there has been situations within the private sector where previous to agreements, it has been raised with us that some of the employers have tried to have shifts for less than eight hours.
PN1197
Yes. My point is more about the question of less than four hours. What I am getting is that there are no award provisions in relation to the limitation of the minimum number of hours that a part-time employee may work?---Well, because there is no reference in regard to that part-time, yes.
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN1198
Yes, and the fact that you say that you are not aware of any that are less than four, the fact that there may be such arrangements is that they would be by agreement, not by an award being in place that says that?---That is correct.
PN1199
Can I take you to your comments under the heading of methods of arranging hours of work which are between paragraphs 25 and 28? You list four items in paragraph 25 which you say are absolutely essential to have a roster contain. Is it by oversight that you have eliminated the Ambulance Service's operational requirements?---No.
PN1200
Is that taken as so fundamental that it is understood?---Yes, I think so, yes.
PN1201
Those issues that are dealt with within paragraphs 25 to 28, are any of those issues there not capable of being dealt with by way of an agreement between the parties?---By way of an agreement?
PN1202
Yes?---They can be dealt with by way of an agreement, yes.
PN1203
Would you say they are more properly dealt with by an agreement as against an award?---No.
PN1204
Why do you say that?---Well, because I think there are some essential criteria that's required for rosters to be formatted and to work in an appropriate way that satisfies all the parties' needs.
PN1205
And isn't that where consultation and agreement that you have referred to in paragraph 26 would come in?---I think there needs to be some fundamental principles, though, to work from.
PN1206
I have no other questions, Commissioner.
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN1207
PN1208
MS FORBATH: Mr Quigley asked you a series of questions about part-time employees and their access to public holidays. By way of clarification, let me ask you whether or not part-time employees were actually employed in the Ambulance Service prior to there being provisions in the enterprise agreement as such?---Yes, they were.
PN1209
And which clause were they employed under? What was the basis on which an employer allowed somebody to work part-time?---Well, there is a couple of areas. There was the parental leave provisions for some and in a rural situation, a number of the call takers worked part-time and so did the clerical staff.
PN1210
So there's a number of different categories of people?---That is right.
PN1211
Is it correct, then, to say that they are not all working part-time just because of the parental leave provisions?---That is correct, yes.
PN1212
And it is correct, is it not, then, to say that that has been happening for many years?---It has, yes.
PN1213
And were those part-time employees, prior to the enterprise agreement, having those part-time work provisions from 2001, how did those part-time employees access the public holidays clause? How did the employer allow them to utilise the public holiday clause?---They accessed the public holiday clause the same as a full-time employee. The same clause was provided to them.
PN1214
Mr Flower asked you some questions about the communications call taker and the nature of their work, particularly relating to the clerical aspects of their work. Would it be fair to say or not that that position, along with many other positions, have a clerical component to it?---Yes, they do.
**** STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE RXN MS FORBATH
PN1215
And is there a clerical component - you said earlier that ambulance paramedics have a clerical component to their job. What is that?---Well, ambulance paramedics have to fill out a patient care record. That is one aspect of their clerical component. They have to fill out incident report forms. They have to fill out maintenance report forms. They have to respond to complaints. They may have to make witness statements in regard to Coroner's inquests, Court cases, arbitration hearings, a whole range of clerical issues.
PN1216
And it is fair to say, is it not, that that doesn't make them clerical employees?---That is right.
PN1217
I have got nothing further, Commissioner.
PN1218
PN1219
THE COMMISSIONER: Do I take it there has been discussion between the parties about the sequence of submissions?
PN1220
MS FORBATH: Commissioner, what the parties decided, my understanding is that I will now make submissions in reply to Mr Quigley and Mr Flower's written submissions and I will do that verbally. They will make verbal submissions in regard to my written submissions and anything that I might say verbally and then I will, if we have got time, have right of reply to them.
PN1221
THE COMMISSIONER: And is there any idea of how long people expect they might go?
PN1222
MS FORBATH: Commissioner, I don't expect to take more than about half an hour to 40 minutes. I have one or two documents to put up, but, really, very little.
PN1223
THE COMMISSIONER: Fine, thanks. We will just go off the record for a minute.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [3.01pm]
RESUMED [3.21pm]
PN1224
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Forbath.
PN1225
MS FORBATH: Commissioner, the first issue that I will deal with is the issue of part-time work and the submissions of Metropolitan Ambulance Service and Rural Ambulance Service firstly. In the submissions received by the union, the services have not actually proposed an alternative clause, but have simply suggested that part-time employees not be entitled to the existing public holiday provisions, so it is not actually clear from their submissions as to what it is that they propose, but as I understand it, the Metropolitan Ambulance Service and Rural Ambulance Victoria I think endorse and support the submissions made by Mr Quigley on behalf of Wilson's Patient Transport and Medical Transport Services and so that may be why they haven't gone into any detail on that.
PN1226
There is also another point that needs to be made here. As I understand it, Mr Flower may have been working from an earlier document that the parties had passing between them, but as it turned out, the application made by the union in regard to part-time employees on the public holiday issue simply says that the public holiday clause, as it currently stands in the award, will apply to part-time employees and the union in saying that, it almost goes without saying, there is no restriction applying to that clause as it currently stands.
PN1227
It talks about all employees and doesn't make that distinction between full-time, part-time employees. Now, both Metropolitan Ambulance Service and the five former Rural Ambulance Services who now make up Rural Ambulance Victoria agreed to the existing public holiday clause as it is found in the consent document and as it stands in the current interim order. In the consent document that you have before you, Commissioner, which will become the new award, it is clause 32 and that clause as it is currently worded and in totality was brought about by a consent order by Senior Deputy President MacBean in February 1997 and the print number for that is N8692 and at that time and since that time, employees have worked part-time.
PN1228
They were working part-time before that as well, but in Rural Ambulance Victoria and Metropolitan Ambulance Service, part-time work has occurred as the evidence from Mr McGhie illustrates. People have worked part-time on a permanent basis in clerical areas and in the communication centres and in a number of other areas, but primarily those two and, of course, quite a lot of employees and an increasing number of employees over the last seven to eight years have been working part-time for a period arising out of the parental leave provisions which provides for part-time work, so it is not a new phenomena in the industry, part-time work.
PN1229
As the evidence was given by Mr McGhie and Mr Bowman, the existing public holiday clause as it previously appeared in the interim order has always applied irrespective of whether somebody is full-time or part-time and the application of it has been without incident. There hasn't been disputes about the application of that public holiday clause to my knowledge. The paramedics who work part-time continue to accrue additional leave in lieu of the public holiday payments.
PN1230
The ones who work part-time are continuing to accrue additional leave in lieu of public holiday penalty payments on the same basis as full-time employees. Certainly a lot of their clerical employees will probably work eight-hour shifts. The communications call takers work mainly eight-hour shifts, I think, but the ambulance paramedics work, as I said, mainly 10 and 14 and there is some 11s and 12s in there as well.
[3.38pm]
PN1231
THE COMMISSIONER: I suppose my question was really directed at where people come back part-time and I know in essence this is asking for evidence from the bar table, but I am just after an impression, do they come back and just work so many shifts a week, rather than come back for half a shift?
PN1232
MS FORBATH: My answer to that would be that they would come back mostly to do a full shift because it is just a practical impossibility for - - -
PN1233
THE COMMISSIONER: A bit like the nursing industry.
PN1234
MS FORBATH: Yes.
PN1235
THE COMMISSIONER: Where women work weekend shifts. They might only work 20 hours a week or 16 hours a week, but they do two shifts on a Saturday or Sunday.
PN1236
MS FORBATH: There would be other categories of employees like clerical workers I am sure who come back from parental leave situations and who may even work permanent part-time who might work a shorter shift by agreement.
PN1237
THE COMMISSIONER: I see. Please proceed.
PN1238
MS FORBATH: My next point to make is in regard to the issue about - the other contested issue, method of arranging hours of work. I refer here to the submissions by Mr Quigley. Mr Quigley's arguments as underpinning his claims go to the issues of management prerogative, optimum service delivery and the point that he makes that the Government contracts, that is the contracts that the private operators have with the Metropolitan Ambulance Service and with Rural Ambulance Victoria have provisions in them whereby they can turn around and demand that shifts be changed or altered at very short notice.
PN1239
There was no particular evidence of that provided by Mr Quigley, no copies of such contracts that would provide evidence of it. The union rejects Mr Quigley's arguments as being a proper basis for effectively giving the employer the power to fix rosters and to change them whenever they want and certainly without the agreement of employees.
PN1240
He does talk about consultation with employees, but if one of his imperatives are that the Metropolitan Ambulance Service and Rural Ambulance Victoria gets on the phone to a private operator and says, look, next week we want an eight-hour shift, not that 10-hour shift or 14-hour shift and we want you to put more people on on a Tuesday rather than on a Monday, then there is certainly very little opportunity in that case for there to be much consultation with people and certainly very little opportunity for there to be a proper working through even of the disputes resolution procedure and I think that the consultation in that situation would be really minimal and so the consultation is very much in our view a word on a page, rather than something that is really going to be worked out properly with employees.
PN1241
We argue that agreement at the workplace is really essential for changes to rosters and to shift lengths and configurations within rosters to occur. Now, in the metals decision, in the Metals Award, I suppose you would consider to be another one of the test cases in terms of award simplification, there is quite a detailed rosters clause and there are quite a lot of detailed provisions, but there is a general statement at the beginning about employers determining what rosters will be, but having to have agreement from the majority of employees at a workplace before making changes to rosters and we think that that concept is an important one in regard to anything that might happen to this clause in the minimum rates award. The other point that Mr Quigley raises about management prerogative - - -
PN1242
THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, I didn't understand that last point where you said what might happen to this clause in the light of the minimum rates adjustment, if I understood you correctly.
PN1243
MS FORBATH: Well, we say that any clause that is now to be inserted under the general heading of methods of arranging hours which is in general terms a rosters clause we think should somewhere contain the concept of agreement being reached with employees. That is all we say. Sorry for that confusion.
PN1244
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN1245
MS FORBATH: We say in regard to the point about management prerogative that management prerogative is one thing, but it can't and shouldn't be exercised without regard to the impact on employees and, in fact, Mr Quigley's own submissions contain reference to a statement by the Western Australian Commission in Court session about this very matter and the statement details the limitations or the constraints on management prerogative and in its statement the Western Australian Commission makes the strong point that the employer has an obligation to justify change to a long-standing custom or practice.
PN1246
The existing clause in the interim order providing for rosters to be posted 28 days in advance and wherever possible on a continuing basis, setting out start and finishing times, days off, on call requirements and leave has been the practice, this clause has existed in the award since 1976. Now, maybe that is - I am not saying that that necessarily should be a consideration in terms of the technical arguments around award simplification, but it has operated well in the industry.
PN1247
Rosters is probably the one issue that has caused the most grief, if you like, in ambulance and what we have got there at the moment is a broad framework about what rosters should contain and the notification that people should have and the union's application, Commissioner, really has just simply rewritten that. As with many of the clauses in the consent document that you have before you, we have simplified the language, we have tried to make it more readable for people and that is essentially what the union has done with the existing rosters clause and we also say, too, that in this award simplification process, the Commission shouldn't be influenced by what might be termed sort of unreasonable contractual arrangements between an employer, between the different employers and that that shouldn't be a basis on which we make changes to existing provisions, so we do reject those submissions of Mr Quigley.
PN1248
In terms of hours of work, Metropolitan Ambulance Service and Rural Ambulance Victoria made some submissions seeking to insert overtime provisions into the hours of work clause and provisions relating to overtime going into hours of work clause don't currently exist in the hours of work clause and I have not noticed any reference to overtime provisions in an hours of work clause in either the hospitality decision or the metals decision. Both of those awards have provisions in their overtime clauses for employees to work reasonable overtime and that hasn't been found to create any kind of inconsistencies in those awards.
PN1249
Now, we have provision for reasonable overtime and, of course, following yesterday's decision of the Full Bench on reasonable overtime, this award was one of the awards that was a vehicle for that case and it may well be that the orders will say something about that that we will need to then put in to the award, whether we do that by application or not I won't say anything more on at the moment, but I don't believe the orders for that - - -
PN1250
THE COMMISSIONER: Who is settling the orders?
PN1251
MS FORBATH: I am not sure, Commissioner. I believe Commissioner Gay may be doing the orders on that one.
PN1252
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
PN1253
MS FORBATH: So the union opposes the insertion of reference to overtime in the hours of work clause and argues that no inconsistency will occur as a result of there not being a reference to overtime in the hours of work clause and there hasn't been any evidence in the past that an inconsistency is present, because if an inconsistency had been present, we argue, it would have been likely to cause disputes and questions of interpretation and that hasn't occurred.
PN1254
MAS and RAV also seek the insertion of a time in lieu provision into the overtime clause. We also oppose that. We say such a provision does not currently exist and there is an express requirement that no employee - and there is also an express requirement that no employee will be required or allowed to take time off in lieu of overtime. If the Commission was of the view that a subclause providing for time off in lieu of payment of overtime should be inserted into the overtime clause, it is the union's submission that the subclause that is contained in the hospitality award would be appropriate and the reference in the hospitality award is to 28.7 and it is headed time off instead of payment for overtime and it is fairly brief and I will read it into the transcript. It refers to an earlier clause and it says and I quote:
PN1255
Despite clause 28.1, an employee may choose with the consent of the employer to take time off instead of payment for overtime at a time or times agreed with the employer ...(reads)... and the employee must be paid at overtime rates.
PN1256
Now, in this clause, it is the employee's choice and obviously with the consent of the employer to take leave in lieu of overtime payment, but also importantly it provides for the amount of time taken to be equivalent to the pay the employee would have received for working overtime and if the Commission is inclined to grant that application, then we say that it should be in the same or similar terms to that which appears in the hospitality award.
PN1257
The application as it stands from MAS and RAV leaves it really open to interpretation for no overtime to be made, for time in lieu to be the only option and I am sure Mr Flower will perhaps clarify that in his submissions. In regard to the issue of recall which is another MAS and RAV submission, the application by MAS and RAV we say is a very blatant attempt we say to reduce an entitlement which currently exists.
PN1258
Where an employee is recalled to duty and remembering that a recall to duty from an off duty situation is a voluntary thing and so where an employee is recalled to duty to undertake a particular job, when no other on duty employees are available to do the work, such employee is assured of a minimum payment under the award of one and a half hours at double time under the existing award. The enterprise agreement provides for four hours at double time, under the enterprise agreements for both MAS and RAV.
PN1259
If the employee returns home after the completion of the job and is later recalled again, a further minimum payment of one and a half hours at double time is made irrespective of the time which may have elapsed between call outs. Now, we say there is nothing in the award which prevents the employer from recalling an employee who agrees to such recall for a fixed period of time and they may recall them for one and a half hours or three hours or whatever number of hours they may seek and they can in that time give that employee any number of jobs and pay them double time for that fixed period of time. There is nothing that prevents that at the moment.
PN1260
If the MAS and RAV application is granted, it will have the effect of reducing income. However, it is unlikely that employees will agree to return to work if they are not going to receive any further payment, so in that sense it seems a hugely impractical provision given that recalls to duty are voluntary. The union rejects the proposition that Mr Flower has made at 11.5 on page 10 of his submissions and I quote:
PN1261
The stand alone nature of payment for each recall to duty acts as an incentive to seek multiple recalls to duty.
PN1262
Now, this really is a nonsense. It is simply not correct because no power resides with the employee to generate their own calls, their own recalls to duty. The power lies entirely with the communications centre. The communications centre issues all the work and would only recall an officer from an off duty situation if it was an emergency situation and their on duty staff at that time were doing other work and were simply not available or there was not enough of them to do the work and they weren't immediately available.
PN1263
The decision to recall and the decision to recall a particular person who is off duty, whether this occurs one or more times is purely within the power of the employer. In fact, it is the responsibility of the employer through the designated management structures to ensure that individuals are only recalled for periods of time which allow for there to be an eight hour rest break between periods of duty and that is obviously there for health and safety reasons.
PN1264
In regard to MAS and RAV submissions at 11.6, what we say to that is that that statement fails to understand that there is a very clear distinction between being rostered on for on call duty for which an allowance is paid per hour and you are actually rostered as part of your contract of employment and when you are on call, you get called out to duty and you are paid double time. In that instance you get one and a half hours minimum payment at double time, but if you get called out again, you won't get another one and a half hour minimum payment if one and a half hours hasn't elapsed since the last call out.
PN1265
Now, that applies in an on call situation, but that is part of that employee's contract of employment. They are on duty effectively because they have been rostered to on call, they are getting an allowance for being on call and holding themselves in a state of readiness to go out. The distinction between that and recall is that in recall a person is rostered off, they are in their own private time and the recall requires the agreement of the employee.
[4.02pm]
PN1266
The on call situation is part of a contract of employment of particular employees working at these branches. Being on call in that situation is not voluntary. It is part of such officers' duties and a call out to duty cannot be refused unless, of course, the officer was sick or fatigued or was in some way indisposed. Recall, as I said previously, is purely voluntary. The two situations are quite different and there is no requirement for the conditions attaching to each of them to be the same.
PN1267
In regard to MAS and RAV submissions about on call, they are seeking the deletion of subclauses 24.5.2 and 24.5.3 and the union opposes the deletion of those clauses and there has been some evidence given by witnesses today about the practical effects of deleting those clauses. A couple of points need to be made here and that is that the two subclauses in question were transferred over from the existing award into the enterprise agreements covering MAS and RAV.
PN1268
They are not provisions that were specifically negotiated under enterprise bargaining. Those two provisions have existed in the award for many, many years and to my knowledge, in the 10 years that I have been with the union, have not caused any disputation. The subclause setting a minimum of six hours for rostered on call we say is a protection for employees working at on call branches. As I said earlier, people are specifically appointed to on call branches and in going to an on call branch, the employee accepts that there are certain restrictions that apply to them.
PN1269
For example, they have to live within a restricted geographical area vis a vis its location to the branch station in that particular town. They have to be in a state of readiness for an immediate response when they are on call and they can be disturbed from sleep for six, seven nights a week consecutively. They can't move any great distance from home and they have to have the ambulance vehicle with them at all times and it severely restricts their family life. Notwithstanding that, there are people who accept those positions.
PN1270
Now, we say that the existing provisions are the ones which those officers have accepted when they go to work at an on call branch and they work out that the financial gain from doing that helps to balance out against those restrictions and it would be a really, really major change for those matters to be removed and for officers to be rostered on call during the day and to perhaps only be rostered for a few hours in each shift.
PN1271
They need to be assured of a reasonable financial return in exchange for the disabilities that I have just outlined. The hourly allowance rate under the award when an officer is on call is $2.10. The six hour minimum ensures that they will receive at least $12.60 for accepting the restrictions which come with this type of position, so if it is open to the employer to not roster an employee to on call duty or to roster such employee for less than six hours, the financial loss would be considerable and we submit, Commissioner, that it is not the purpose of award simplification to withdraw entitlements, particularly where such entitlements incur financial loss.
PN1272
And we say in any event and evidence was given about this today that there is a very considerable flexibility there already in the subclause that currently exists because there can be an agreement under that clause between an employer and an employee to be on call for less than six hours, so that can be negotiated between one individual and the employer, so there is already that flexibility there.
PN1273
If an employer can roster an employee to an on call situation during a period of time when an employee would normally be working for a full hourly rate, but would as a consequence of the employer's decision to perhaps roster them to on call during the day and put them on ordinary duty at night, only receive $2.10 per hour as an on call allowance unless they were called out to duty and the income level of employees in that situation would be reduced and certainly would be most uncertain.
PN1274
Given the provisions in 24.4.2 and 24.5.1 are not contested, the absence of 24.5.2 could result in a person being rostered on call to day shift hours within nine to five and then required to work ordinary hours at night. Given the higher work loads during the day, there would be little time for rest followed by a full on duty period at night and I think there is quite serious health and safety considerations there. Removal of this clause we say has a potential to change the whole way in which on call is worked, reduce income and affect health and safety.
PN1275
MAS and RAV argue that the current provisions are restrictive and that they are inefficient. There has been no agitation from employers to date that that is the case and there is no evidence been provided by anyone on the other side of the bar table to indicate what those inefficiencies and those restrictions actually are, what effect it has had on their budgets and so forth. We say that there is a 16-hour period out of a total of 24 hours during which an employee can be rostered on call and in RAV, most employees working at an on call branch are rostered to on call for either a 16-hour or 14-hour period which runs continuous with their ordinary rostered hours of work and this can't in any way, shape or form be described as a restrictive provision.
PN1276
The union argues that this provides a balance and it is a balance very much in the employer's favour between employee needs and the need for the ambulance service to provide a service to the community. After all, when you look at it, the ambulance services are getting one officer working continuously potentially across a 24-hour period. They have got their eight or 10-hour period of ordinary duty and then they are available for the remainder of the time on call and can be called out on any number of occasions to respond to emergencies, so it is already an extremely flexible provision.
PN1277
I just want to point to their clause 10.3 at page 9 and the submissions by MAS and RAV are not accurate at that point. On call branches do provide a 24-hour service and they provide on duty officers for eight or 10-hour day shifts with the remainder of the 24-hour period being on call, so that is still a service, albeit a different type of service to what you might get in the bigger branches in the more populous areas of rural Victoria.
PN1278
In areas not requiring a professional ambulance service or a 24-hour service, ambulance community officers may provide a basic first aid and transport facilities from an on call situation 24 hours a day and special provisions have been made for these employees under the enterprise agreement, so there are for those locations that don't even warrant a professional and qualified ambulance paramedic being located, because the work load is so low, there are other provisions that have been made and have been formalised to provide the Rural Ambulance Service with a flexible situation.
PN1279
The on call facility cannot be described as virtually redundant which is what the submissions from MAS and RAV say. I don't know how they can possibly come to that conclusion when approximately 30 per cent of RAVs workplaces operate with the on call facility and in MAS, nine of their workplaces on Melbourne's metropolitan fringe operate on call branches. We are concerned, too, that there is provision in regard to part-time employees who if they were engaged say for a minimum of three or four hours a day at one of these branches, they then could perhaps be placed on call for a lot of hours beyond that if there weren't those restrictions in place, so it would really be open to the service to quite seriously exploit part-time workers in that situation.
PN1280
What we say is that there is a standby provision in the award for day time situations which takes me to standby, further submissions by MAS and RAV and we reject their submissions on standby. The existing standby provision is as follows and I quote from the existing award and we say it should be transferred over exactly as it is and I quote:
PN1281
When an employee is required to stand by for any period outside the employee's ordinary hours, this period will be counted as time worked.
PN1282
Under this provision, standby is to be counted as time worked and if it is in excess of the ordinary hours, then by definition it is paid as overtime and this has always been the practice in the industry, although I must say that the provision is not a widely used provision. In the 1997 enterprise agreements with the Metropolitan Ambulance Service and the then five Rural Ambulance Services, agreement was reached that a recall to duty would attract a minimum of four hours pay at double time and the trade off for that in the enterprise agreement was that standby could be paid at single ordinary time.
PN1283
That was the trade off between those two things, but that is an enterprise agreement. The award provides for a recall to attract a minimum payment of one and a half hours at double time and the standby to be counted as time worked and therefore capable of attracting overtime rates. Now, we can't use the fact, much as I would like to be able to use the fact, that if something is in an enterprise agreement, that it should therefore be in the award. In fact, I think quite the opposite is the fact.
PN1284
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, not quite.
PN1285
MS FORBATH: Not quite? Well, I will be guided by the Commission in that regard.
PN1286
THE COMMISSIONER: I have certified many an agreement which is a mirror of the award with maybe a minimum adjustment to some wage rates and that is it. They just adopt the provisions of the award, but I take your more general point about the philosophy of the Act, which is that EBAs in fact are designed to give greater flexibility, provided the no disadvantage test is met. I am sorry, I was deflecting you.
PN1287
MS FORBATH: Well, I was going on to say the fact that a provision exists in an enterprise agreement can't of itself be the basis upon which it is then inserted into a simplified award under the award simplification process.
PN1288
THE COMMISSIONER: No, on that basis we would have no wage rates in awards.
PN1289
MS FORBATH: And if there were the case, then, I mean, the union could argue for a recall to duty being at a minimum of four hours at double time and clearly that is not the case. Now, we submit that that clause should be left as it is. Standby is clearly an allowable provision under section 89A(2)(b) and section 89A(6) as was found by Senior Deputy President Marsh in the metals decision. Commissioner, I am conscious of the time. I have got perhaps about another 20 minutes to go. Should I continue?
PN1290
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, you can. We will just go off the record for a moment.
OFF THE RECORD
PN1291
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Forbath.
PN1292
MS FORBATH: The Metropolitan Ambulance Service have also made submissions in regard to the location of the fleet maintenance officer mechanic and communications call taker, where they should fit in terms of the classification structure and while the general matter of wages has been held over for arguments and submission at another time, this issue of their location has been left on the list and there has been some evidence about that presented today, so I would like to respond to the submissions made by the Metropolitan Ambulance Service and Rural Ambulance Victoria in regard to this.
PN1293
At clause 8.2 of Mr Flower's submissions and that is at page 4, Commissioner, they seek to allocate the above named, or the classifications of communications call taker, mechanic and fleet maintenance officer, they wish to locate those classifications in the clerical and administrative support section of the award at 11.3 of the consent document and on the basis that this section more accurately describes the role and function of such positions which I quote from their clause 8.2 and we reject that argument and we put up a counter proposition that locates those classifications in what is known as the operational section of the award at 11.1.
PN1294
We say that no evidence has been provided to suggest that the fleet maintenance officers and the mechanics are clerical and administrative support classifications or even that clerical and administrative support form the major or even a substantial part of their duties and we say the same in relation to communications call takers. Their job description that was tabled earlier, exhibit F4, does not indicate a role that is primarily clerical or administrative in nature and as was evidenced from the witness, there is a lot of positions, including that of the ambulance paramedic, where there is a clerical component.
PN1295
There is a clerical component to most people's jobs, whether it involves recording or writing in some way or using the computer in some shape or form; that is a clerical element and utilising the telephone or the fax machine is part of just about every job you can think of in this day and age, but that doesn't make those jobs clerical or administrative in nature as the primary focus of that job and we say that there isn't any evidence that those positions are administrative and clerical in nature.
PN1296
You could argue that ambulance service managers' jobs are much more clerical in nature, have a much heavier clerical and administrative component than almost any other job, but nobody is describing them as clerical or administrative support employees and they are considered to be part of the operational part of the ambulance service, although they are not covered by this award.
PN1297
THE COMMISSIONER: I take it you are not making a counter claim in regard to those positions, are you?
PN1298
MS FORBATH: I wouldn't dream of it. MAS and RAV have recognised the early nexus between the fleet maintenance officer mechanic rate of pay and the ambulance officer rate of pay and the station officer rate of pay and they go to that in 8.9 through to 8.14 and it is correct that that absolute nexus in the wage rates was broken when there was a work value case for ambulance officers, station officers in the 1980s, but the breaking of that nexus in terms of their pay rates doesn't automatically then deem them as being non-operational and it can't be an argument we submit that results in them therefore magically becoming clerical and administrative support positions and it doesn't mean that they should not remain in the section of the award that they are currently in.
PN1299
Now, the payment of what is known as operational service increments to fleet maintenance officers and mechanics in 1973 was we say not necessarily due to their wage nexus with ambulance officers and station officers, although that may have been an argument. We say that at the time when the service increments were introduced, they were introduced into many awards at that time and we would submit that all the mechanics and trade qualified persons at that time who were covered by awards into which SIPs were inserted were paid the higher level of SIPS and they became known in the old Ambulance Services Award, the old State award, as operational SIPs, service increment payments.
PN1300
So irrespective of the work value decisions referred to earlier, the fleet maintenance officers and the mechanics continued to receive those operational service increments and they continue to do so to this day as part of their calculation of their wage. Now, in regard to the emergency services superannuation scheme and the extent to which that is an issue, I would like just to put up some material about the emergency services superannuation scheme just so that we can clarify a couple of matters.
PN1301
MS FORBATH: Commissioner, are you going to make them 5 and 6?
PN1302
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I will number them separately. F5 is the annual report and F6 is the Regs.
[4.32pm]
PN1303
MS FORBATH: Commissioner, I have just tabled these two things. I don't want to labour this point, but if I could just take you to the extract from the annual report 1997 and right in the middle of the page there it talks about definition of an operational member and when a person is classified as an operational staff member, they retain this classification while they remain with their employer.
PN1304
The changes to the Act do not affect this fact. However, with changes to State awards, the definition of operational staff member can no longer be determined under some employment awards. As a result, new employees employed with the fire and ambulance service are classified as operational staff members by their employer. Under this section of the Act, the employer provides the definition of an operational staff member.
PN1305
Where a member does not meet the definition which has been determined by the employer, the employer does have the power to designate the employee as an operational staff member and the ESSS board must also approve this classification and if I can take you to the regulations - - -
PN1306
THE COMMISSIONER: Page 4, subsection (f), sub-subsection (vi).
PN1307
MS FORBATH: Yes:
PN1308
The employee of Ambulance Service Victoria who has at any time during his or her current period of employment been designated as operational under the Ambulance Services Award -
PN1309
that is an operational employee -
PN1310
or any other contributor who is designated by an employer as an operational staff member and is approved as such by the board.
PN1311
Look, the only reason I tabled those, Commissioner, is that we say that there is nothing particularly scientific about who is an operational person in the Ambulance Service.
PN1312
THE COMMISSIONER: It is purely arbitrary and discretionary, is it?
PN1313
MS FORBATH: Yes, it is something that is determined at the end of the day by the employer, determining whether somebody is operational or not and what has happened in the past with the fleet maintenance officers and the mechanics is that they designated them operational for purposes of the emergency services superannuation scheme and they did likewise with quite a number of the communications call takers.
PN1314
They did it with some and not with others, so it is effectively an employer prerogative, other than those categories that have always been operational right from the beginning of the emergency services superannuation scheme and who were later gazetted as such by the Victorian Government in the 90s, after all the State awards were abolished and so a certain number of classifications were gazetted as operational, but, of course, there are a whole lot of classifications that get created from time to time as new jobs are created and so forth and it is open to the employer to write ESSS board and say this person is an operational employee and by virtue of that, they can go into the defined benefits scheme and obtain the superior benefits.
PN1315
THE COMMISSIONER: It would seem to me that whatever is in the award in terms of who is operational and who is not affects the award entitlements, but ultimately it has no effect legally in relation to the ESSS super fund because the employer could say they are all administrative. You might take action in Court to say that is an error in administrative law, but as I see that regulation, the employer does have that discretion irrespective of what this Commission does, but from your point of view - I had better stop there.
PN1316
MS FORBATH: So effectively what the regulations say, provides for an employee to be designated operational by the employer or where an employee during any period of their employment has been designated as operational, under the award they are operational, so there are those two options, so not only is there a history of fleet maintenance officers and mechanics being designated by the employer as operational, otherwise they wouldn't be in the defined benefits scheme, but they now have a clear entitlement to be in the defined benefits scheme because they are designated operational under the current award.
PN1317
Now, there might be an argument about that at a board level where the employer says, well, this person may be operational under the award, but we are saying that they are not operational, so that would be a matter for there to be certain argument before the board. Now, it depends how you read the regulations as to how the board might determine the matter. The regulations certainly seem to place a great deal of the power with the employer.
PN1318
So I guess what we are concerned about, about moving the fleet maintenance officers and mechanics out of the operational part of the award and into the clerical and administrative part of the award is that this might be an argument for two things, that those that are in the defined benefits scheme at the moment could be taken out of the defined benefits scheme and placed under the simple accumulation scheme and that would have a huge financial impact on people.
PN1319
The other concern that we have is that if they go into the clerical and administrative stream, that they could technically be then said only to receive the clerical and administrative service increments because they wouldn't have an actual award entitlement to the operational increments which are at the higher level, so that it is a real concern as to what the financial effect will be on those people, if that were to happen and we say once again, as we have said on many occasions, that the award simplification process is not about reducing existing entitlements.
PN1320
At 8.16, our submission is that 8.16 is not actually correct because there is no reference in the Act or in the legislation itself - I am talking here about the Emergency Services Superannuation Act - to the performance of emergency work as being a requirement for membership of the emergency services superannuation defined benefits scheme, because there are many people who work in an operational context who are not performing emergency work and a good example of that is clinic transport officers who transport walking patients who could never be described as emergency patients and they are in the defined benefits scheme, because they are part of the operational structure.
PN1321
I think the important thing here, just my last point about the superannuation point, is that the fund itself doesn't specifically preclude people from being in the defined benefits scheme and we say it is either determined by their award classification or it is determined by the employer. Communications call takers which are dealt with by Mr Flower starting at page 7, at 8.27. Now, I am concerned at 8.29 that Commissioner O'Shea's statement has been not correctly summarised or there has been a certain interpretation placed on it that we certainly wouldn't agree with. That document has already been tabled, Commissioner, through one of the - I think it was with Mr Gough. It was the Hunt v Hunt exhibit at appendix 6.
PN1322
THE COMMISSIONER: 6 and 7.
PN1323
MS FORBATH: Now, if I can just, if you have got that in front of you, take you to the second page of Commissioner O'Shea's order. Commissioner O'Shea is saying at clause 1(b):
PN1324
Operational employees, including civilian call takers -
PN1325
and just to stop there for a moment to say civilian call takers are the same as communications call takers, as they have had various names along the way, but they are one and the same classification, same work:
PN1326
Operational employees, including civilian call takers, clinical instructors, co-ordinators and managers -
PN1327
and it refers to managers required to perform operational duties from time to time and maintain their operational qualifications and where rosters are included in the calculation of the rolled-in rate. Now, these were the people who were to receive the rolled-in rate. We say it is quite clear there that what Commissioner O'Shea was saying was that there are quite a number of managers who are no longer actually working on the road and they are only required to perform operational duties from time to time in order to maintain their qualifications, that they have rosters that would be included in the rolled-in rate and a good example of this is in the communications centre you have got the ambulance paramedics who work and are called communications officers, they do the dispatching side of things.
PN1328
Now, they - for a long period of time, many of them never went out to work on the road. The parties are looking at some new provisions now to encourage those people still to have some time out of that setting to go back on the road, to maintain their qualifications and for that to happen from time to time, so there are people in those kind of management type positions whose main job is not out in the field driving ambulances, but if they had a roster that was included in the rolled-in rate, they were to be included here.
PN1329
Now, what Mr Flower says is that what Commissioner O'Shea was saying there was that the call takers were required to perform operational duties from time to time, to maintain their operational qualifications. Now, that is not the case because clearly they don't work on the road; they work in an operational context and they were considered to be operational resulting from this case, for purposes of the payment of the rolled-in rate and their rosters, together with the rosters of other people in the communications centres and other people performing specialist clinical roles such as instructors and co-ordinators as they were then called, would receive the rolled-in rate of pay.
PN1330
So we say those words, the performance of operational duties from time to time and maintenance of operational qualifications, refers to managers and not to the earlier listed classifications in the sentence. O'Shea's decision to include the call takers as operational employees came about after much debate in this case as to who would actually receive the rolled-in rate and who could properly be considered as operational and in Commissioner O'Shea's decision in this case at print 3353 at page 5, when he was outlining the issue, Commissioner O'Shea states:
PN1331
Should the rolled-in rate which the parties have all -
PN1332
this is on the questions he had to determine:
PN1333
Should the rolled-in rate which all the parties have committed themselves to introduce be a single rate ...(reads)... distinguishing shift work and day shift call work.
PN1334
So there was very much a consideration that the rolled-in rate would apply only to operational employees and as an outcome of this decision by Commissioner O'Shea, the communications call takers were designated as such, as operational and received for purposes of the rolled-in rate and they received the rolled-in rate and they received the rolled-in rate and as well they received the operational service increments as well. We say, 8.31, the submissions by Mr Flower say that Commissioner O'Shea's decision lacked clarity in regard to operational employees.
PN1335
We say that the employers and the union were very clear at that time that the call takers were one of the operational classifications and this clarity is reflected in O'Shea's order. There was no argument at the time that these people shouldn't be included in the rolled-in rate because they were not operational. The other issue about training for the call taker position is at 8.35 and 8.36 where they say that the role of the communications call taker is largely administrative and clerical and they go to the question of the training.
PN1336
Now, I think it was Mr McGhie said there was always internal training for the communications call taker position and that was provided internally by the employer and it was provided to varying degrees of detail by the different services at different times, but since the Rural Ambulance Victoria has been created, they have been involved with the union developing national competencies for training in the ambulance industry and there has been national competencies developed for ambulance communications call taking and I would like to hand that up.
PN1337
MS FORBATH: Commissioner, I tender this simply to detail the fact that training for ambulance communications call taking has now been formalised at the national level and it will be a TAFE certificate level 3 and there is a range of competencies or subjects and electives that are contained in that qualification. There is, of course, going with this a very detailed document that attached to each one of these subject areas that teases out all the various components and competencies required in each of these important areas and you will see that they have to have knowledge of advanced medical terminology, they have to be able to apply advanced first aid and so forth, so there's a number of provisions there that set this position very firmly within the broad context of the ambulance industry.
PN1338
Now, the national competencies were developed for all the positions from transport officer to a patient transport officer, ambulance officer, a MICA officer, a station officer, a supervisor. All the classifications that were considered to be part of the operational context of the ambulance industry now have national competencies which were confirmed by the national authorities that started at the beginning of this year and at the end of last year. These people were not considered to be a clerical position or an administrative position.
PN1339
Otherwise, they would not have been included in this exercise and the employers and the unions were involved in this process of drawing up these competencies and the package of competencies for all of the positions does not include ambulance clerical staff or ambulance administrative staff because they are covered under a different set of national competencies. As we have heard today, the call takers receive calls from both emergency and non-emergency situations.
PN1340
They are required to be able to make the distinction between an emergency and a non-emergency call and to elicit the necessary information required by the dispatcher to allocate appropriate resources. The ability of the call taker to capture all of the necessary information efficiently and with great sensitivity is very crucial in determining the level and quantity of resources to be dispatched and the speed with which this is done plays an important part in achieving quick response times to incidents and the triage role of the call taker therefore is quite a vital one and, as has been said by witnesses for the LHMU, the duties of the call taker are an intrinsic part of the operational team in the communications centres in Rural Ambulance Victoria. There is just one other thing that I would like to table from another industry.
PN1341
I would like to table two things. The Commission may be aware that the Metropolitan Ambulance Service privatised their communications centre in the early 90s and it was contracted out to the Intergraph organisation and there was recently a case in the Commission which went to the question of a demarcation matter. There was an application by the United Firefighters to revoke a demarcation order in regard to coverage of call takers and dispatchers in the Intergraph communications centre and the decision by Senior Deputy President Lacy which I tender to the Commission makes it very clear. If I can take you to page 4, the bottom of that page and I will quote from it:
PN1342
There are two categories of staff employed at Intergraph Burwood and the World Trade Centre sites ...(reads)... and dispatch events to that appropriate unit.
PN1343
Down at the bottom of that same page at clause 20, the last sentence on that page, he says:
PN1344
They achieve certificate 2 call centre operator which is a nationally accredited position under a national accreditation system.
PN1345
Can I just say at that time the certificate was a certificate level 2. It has now been upgraded to a certificate level 3 and it is quite clear from his investigation, Senior Deputy President Lacy inspected the two premises and was very clear to distinguish between clerical and administrative and operational staff and operational staff being the people who receive the calls and who dispatch the calls and that is obvious from that decision. The second document that I would like to table to the Commission is just an extract from the Intergraph enterprise award and if I can just take you to the second page of that where it goes to the question of classification and salary rates. At 14.1.1:
PN1346
Operational employees are employees who undertake operational duties at the communications centres such as call takers, dispatchers and team leaders.
PN1347
And then it makes the point of operational support employees:
PN1348
Who undertake operational support duties including managerial, administrative and trainee positions.
[4.59pm]
PN1349
And it goes on to provide a classification table for operational employees. Now, Commissioner, I table those and I do so because what we have in the industry at the moment, in the Metropolitan Ambulance Service we have a privatised system which at the beginning of September will be coming back under the auspices of the Government. It will be a new State Government owned enterprise and in that context there is just no debate about the fact that call takers in that situation are operational employees as are dispatchers and these people don't have ambulance paramedic qualifications, but it is seen that they are operational employees, part of the operational context of both the fire service, the police service and the ambulance service and the functions that they perform are very, very similar to those performed by communications call takers in Rural Ambulance Victoria and we don't think there should be any difference between the two industries.
PN1350
THE COMMISSIONER: I propose to mark the decision of Senior Deputy President Lacy F8. I do so because it is not the complete decision. If it was, I wouldn't have marked it, but is is extracts from his decision and the OSIRIS document will be marked as F9.
EXHIBIT #F8 EXTRACTS FROM DECISION OF SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT LACY
PN1351
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I think, given the time, it is five o'clock, you have still got a number of subjects to canvass, I think, Ms Forbath.
PN1352
MS FORBATH: I have got - - -
PN1353
THE COMMISSIONER: Incidental expenses.
PN1354
MS FORBATH: I have got the regional reliever to do and the incidental allowances to do. That is all.
PN1355
THE COMMISSIONER: Those two?
PN1356
MS FORBATH: Just those two, 10 minutes.
PN1357
THE COMMISSIONER: You will have 10 minutes. I have to go somewhere.
PN1358
MS FORBATH: These are not detailed at all. In regard to the definition of regional reliever, the proposition for a new definition of regional relieving officer by the MAS and RAV we say are not reflective of current practice in RAV. We say the existing provisions relating to regional relieving officers provides for the appointment of employees to this classification and in the absence of a regional relieving officer, other officers perform the regional relieving function and in RAV, all such officers, whether they are appointed or whether they perform the job from time to time are paid at the regional relieving officers classification rate of pay when they do that work and this practice has been in place for many years.
PN1359
It is very clear that the parties have applied the award provisions in such a way as to recognise that employees must receive the regional reliever's officer rate of pay when they are required to live away from home while relieving absent officers who would otherwise be relieved by an appointed regional relieving officer. The MAS and RAV proposed definition and changes that they seek to make to subclause 16.7 of the consent document are designed to legitimise MAS' current refusal to pay the regional relieving officer rate of pay to officers who are performing relieving duties which require them to live away from home.
PN1360
Now, there is an outstanding pay dispute between Metropolitan Ambulance Service and the union about this very issue which shouldn't really be an issue for this award simplification process or resolved by the award simplification process.
PN1361
THE COMMISSIONER: Is that an issue in relation to EBA rates, is it?
PN1362
MS FORBATH: Yes, it would be, that is right, but that doesn't change, of course. The union rejects the MAS and RAV submissions that current MAS employment practices are legitimate in regard to this matter. We believe they can't be described as legitimate. If the Commission accepts the MAS and RAV proposed definition and their proposed change to clause 16.17 in the consent document, it will have the effect in RAV of reducing the pay of employees who undertake regional relieving duties.
PN1363
The regional relieving officer rate of pay is contained in the classification structure, or the proposed classification structure at clause 11.1 which will be obviously subject to a different exercise at a later date. In regard to incidental allowance and the application by the ambulance services to delete it, they argue that it is obsolete and it is clearly not obsolete because it is being paid, currently being paid to rural ambulance officer student when they are in attendance at the school and clearly, as the evidence indicates, it has not been included in the rolled-in rate of pay or into the aggregated rate of pay and that was what seemed to be suggested in the submissions from the services.
PN1364
Commissioner O'Shea's order and decision which has been tabled earlier is very clear on what is included in the rolled-in rate and there isn't really one word or sentence in either the decision or the order to indicate that the incidental expenses allowance has been incorporated into the rolled-in rate. We know now that the rolled-in rate of pay incorporates shift penalties, weekend penalties and in RAV it also incorporates a single officer crewing allowance, but no other allowances and that point I think has been really clarified by the witness evidence that it has not been included in the aggregated rate of pay or the rolled-in rate.
PN1365
The submissions by MAS and RAV that retention of the allowance provides an opportunity to - and I quote - double dip is strongly rejected by the union and it is clearly not the case based on the evidence, because they are not getting it through the rolled-in rate or the aggregated rate of pay. They are getting it for incidental expenses that they incur while they are living in at the school and the title of the allowance suggests very clearly that that is the case and Mr Bowman and Mr McGhie provided evidence of the fact that there are incidental expenses that have occurred as a result of having to live in at the training centre and having to live away from home.
PN1366
And all employees of the rural services in the past today are provided with meals and accommodation as an award entitlement when they are required to attend for training at the school because of the distance between the training venue and the country locations where people live, but in MAS there is not that same entitlement automatically to live in at the school, although they do live in if accommodation is available and it is really subject to other issues to do with where they live in relation to the training centre, which is now down at Frankston.
PN1367
The fact of the matter is that a great many of the MAS employees do have the practical option of returning to their place of residence each day and as Mr McGhie and Mr Bowman said that the incidental expenses cover additional food items not provided by the training venue, telephone calls, public transport and other benefits and services that are available to a person if you are living at home. The current value of the allowance is $10.08 cents per day. That is the 2001 rate.
PN1368
It hasn't been adjusted for the latest safety net while you are required to live in at the training venue, so if the student is there from Monday to Friday, it would result in a payment of $50.40 a week. If it was the case, as MAS and RAV allege, that the incidental expense allowance is a payment to country student ambulance officers to compensate them for the loss of shift and weekend penalties while they are at the training venue, it would be expected that there was a correlation between the amount of the allowance and the shift and the weekend penalties, but that is not the case.
PN1369
The current shift and weekend penalty component for a level 1, year 1 student ambulance officer is $155.25 a week and at level 3, year 3 it is $172.50 per week and both of those amounts are well in excess of what the incidental expenses allowance comes to over a period of five days. Both the allowance and the shift and weekend penalties have been varied over the years in accordance with National Wage Case principles and neither has been increased on any other grounds in the interim order, so in that sense we would strongly oppose the removal of the incidental expenses allowance from award.
PN1370
As we say, it will be removing from people something to which they are currently entitled. Commissioner, we stand by our earlier written submissions. I am not going to go to those. My submissions today were really by way of response to what the employers have written. Thank you and thank you for your indulgence in terms of the time.
PN1371
PN1372
THE COMMISSIONER: In relation to A2, do I understand that it is your position that an award should be made that contains whatever is in exhibit A1, save for clauses which deal with the 13 issues which are listed on the second page of A2, contested issues, that is the summary of contested issues, part-time work, wages, higher duties, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera?
PN1373
MS FORBATH: Commissioner, what the parties decided in putting the so called consent document to you was that where a clause currently existed in the award, that we would leave that in and that either party could then apply for it to be taken out or varied in some way. Where a party wanted to put something new into the award that hadn't previously been there or in a situation where a clause was being so dramatically rewritten that it didn't really bear much resemblance to what had been there before, that we would leave it out.
PN1374
So you will find in the consent document that there are a number of things that are not there and a number of things on that list that are there and to use an example, the incidental expenses allowance is in the consent document, but it is clearly an understanding between the parties that there then would be an application to remove it on the part of Rural Ambulance Victoria, so that was the basis on which we put it together.
PN1375
We would say or submit, Commissioner, that we should make the award in the form that it has been put up to you in A1, clearly without prejudice to those items that are contestable and they have been contested between the parties, that the parties either move to amend them or to delete them or to change them in some way. That would be our position on it, but certainly we believe that the award should be made today, because all of our applications to the Commission have actually been made on the assumption that the award would be made, so our applications to vary are applications to vary the consent document, if I can put it that way. Perhaps the other side may have some other view on that.
PN1376
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Flower.
PN1377
MR FLOWER: Subject to my clients jumping up and down about what I am about to say, I am content with that course, save that yesterday, Mr Commissioner, you indicated that you wouldn't make that award with wage rates in it and the document you have does have wage rates in it. That is the only concern I have got.
PN1378
THE COMMISSIONER: No, there won't be any wage rates in it, rest assured of that.
PN1379
MR FLOWER: If the Commission pleases.
PN1380
MS FORBATH: Commissioner, I accept that.
PN1381
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Quigley, is there anything you wish to say?
PN1382
MR QUIGLEY: No. We would go along with what the parties have said, save that it is understood that from the private sector side we will be making an application to vary and ours would be based on varying that proposed award that is A1.
PN1383
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. This matter is adjourned until Wednesday, 31 July at two pm.
ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 31 JULY 2002 [5.16pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
STEPHEN THOMAS GOUGH, SWORN PN765
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FLOWER PN765
EXHIBIT #MR3 STATEMENT OF MR S.T. GOUGH PN781
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS FORBATH PN783
WITNESS WITHDREW PN804
ALAN RAYMOND PEGG, SWORN PN805
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FLOWER PN805
EXHIBIT #MR4 STATEMENT OF MR A.R. PEGG PN814
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS FORBATH PN825
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FLOWER PN834
WITNESS WITHDREW PN843
LAURENCE FRANCIS MAHONY, SWORN PN847
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FLOWER PN847
EXHIBIT #R5 STATEMENT OF MR L.F. MAHONY PN858
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS FORBATH PN860
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FLOWER PN886
WITNESS WITHDREW PN890
GORDON CHARLES BOWMAN, AFFIRMED PN894
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS FORBATH PN894
EXHIBIT #F2 STATEMENT OF MR G.C. BOWMAN PN900
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FLOWER PN923
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR QUIGLEY PN969
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS FORBATH PN1030
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1058
STEPHEN JOHN McGHIE, AFFIRMED PN1060
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS FORBATH PN1060
EXHIBIT #F3 STATEMENT OF MR S.J. McGHIE PN1067
EXHIBIT #F4 JOB DESCRIPTION FOR CALL TAKERS PN1076
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FLOWER PN1124
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR QUIGLEY PN1186
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS FORBATH PN1208
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1219
EXHIBIT #F5 ANNUAL REPORT PN1301
EXHIBIT #F6 EXTRACT FROM STATUTORY RULES PN1301
EXHIBIT #F7 COMPETENCIES DOCUMENT PN1337
EXHIBIT #F8 EXTRACTS FROM DECISION OF SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT LACY PN1351
EXHIBIT #F9 OSIRIS DOCUMENT PN1351
EXHIBIT #A2 CONTESTED ISSUES DOCUMENT PN1372
EXHIBIT #A3 AWARD RESPONDENTS DOCUMENT PN1372
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