C2002/4040, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 3620 (18 September 2002)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N VT05534
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER BLAIR

C2002/4040

HEALTH SERVICES UNION
OF AUSTRALIA

and

DOREVITCH PATHOLOGY

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of an industrial dispute re alleged harassment of
employees and failure to secure welfare of employees

MELBOURNE

8.41 AM, FRIDAY, 30 AUGUST 2002

PN1

MS M. LINDSAY: I appear for the Health Services Union.

PN2

MR M. NALLY: I appear on behalf of Mayne Health; with me is MS M. KEYES.

PN3

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms Lindsay.

PN4

MS LINDSAY: Thank you, Commissioner. Our submission is in relation to the harassment of union members at Mayne Health Dorevitch Pathology. It also goes to the failure of Dorevitch Pathology to secure the welfare of its employees. Might I add that since this was listed for dispute there have been some developments towards a resolution, even as early as this morning. However, the HSUA still seeks the assistance of the Commission to - for the hope of gaining a satisfactory outcome.

PN5

There is quite a long list of events that have occurred leading up to this and I plead the Commission's patience in putting forward our side of the argument. If I could just hand out the section of the Occupational Health and Safety Act that refers to the duties of employers in relation to securing a healthy and safe working environment.

PN6

THE COMMISSIONER: You say that you have had some discussions, even as late as this morning.

PN7

MS LINDSAY: Yes.

PN8

THE COMMISSIONER: And you indicated that there was some - there appeared to be some progress on the way of resolving the issues.

PN9

MS LINDSAY: Yes.

PN10

THE COMMISSIONER: And you indicate about the assistance of the Commission. Now, what do you hope to achieve at the end of your submissions, that we go into conference?

PN11

MS LINDSAY: If it pleases the Commission, yes.

PN12

THE COMMISSIONER: Right. So I just query what purpose it would serve, if you are close to some resolution or you believe that you are, why don't we just go straight into conference and see whether or not we can put this thing to bed? I mean, I am well aware of what the employer's obligations are and the employer's obligations are under the Occupational Health and Safety Act. I am well aware of - well, I hope I am - well aware of what their obligations are under the Workplace Relations Act.

PN13

Is it not appropriate that we go into conference, if there is no objections from Mayne, in terms of just putting this to bed?

PN14

MS LINDSAY: I can see what you are saying, Commissioner, but I think - there is a couple of concerns that I have and one is that there is quite a lot of issues that need to be raised and I am concerned that - I really want to put the case forward to you.

PN15

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Well, let us not worry about the technicalities of the Act and everything.

PN16

MS LINDSAY: Okay.

PN17

THE COMMISSIONER: You just put what the issues are straight up.

PN18

MS LINDSAY: Yes, right.

PN19

THE COMMISSIONER: Then we will see where we go from there.

PN20

MS LINDSAY: Okay, I appreciate that. On 15 March 2002 the HSUA initiated a grievance procedure with Dorevitch Pathology in relation to a number of issues. I have got a copy of the letter here. If I could bring to your attention points 2, 5 and 6 of the grievance, 2:

PN21

...that there was inadequate staffing levels across the organisation; that there was inadequate consultation regarding changes to courier runs -

PN22

and 6:

PN23

...that there was insufficient time allocated for meal breaks as a result of unrealistic expectations regarding workload.

PN24

This is part of what the concern is regarding the harassment of the employees at Dorevitch Pathology. If I could just give you a copy of Mayne Health Dorevitch Pathology's policy on workplace bullying. If I could bring to your attention the points on the second page, the dot points, the second one on the second page saying:

PN25

...giving employees impossible assignments and deliberately changing work rosters to inconvenience particular employees.

PN26

That is - they are two of the concerns that we have in relation to the bullying by supervisors at Dorevitch Pathology. If I could just - - -

PN27

THE COMMISSIONER: Can I just clarify something?

PN28

MS LINDSAY: Yes.

PN29

THE COMMISSIONER: At the outset you said there were two issues.

PN30

MS LINDSAY: Yes.

PN31

THE COMMISSIONER: One was the failure to secure the welfare of the employees, and that goes to the occupational health and safety, unrealistic work expectations and so forth.

PN32

MS LINDSAY: Yes.

PN33

THE COMMISSIONER: And you say the second one was harassment of union members.

PN34

MS LINDSAY: Yes.

PN35

THE COMMISSIONER: Now, is it harassment of union members or is it harassment, alleged harassment, of employees who just happen to be union members?

PN36

MS LINDSAY: It is probably employees who happen to be union members, yes.

PN37

THE COMMISSIONER: Right, okay.

PN38

MS LINDSAY: Yes, to clarify that. I am not totally clear on the extent of the harassment throughout the organisation.

PN39

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN40

MS LINDSAY: But what will come further in the submission is in relation to employees being subjected to covert surveillance by their supervisors, which has been admitted by the management at Dorevitch Pathology. That is one of the concerns. But I was, firstly, going to speak about the concern of the unrealistic workload expectation because that is tied in with the grievance procedure that was initiated back in march.

PN41

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. So what - in the discussions that you have had with Dorevitch - - -

PN42

MS LINDSAY: Yes.

PN43

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - what point have you got to in terms of addressing what you say are unrealistic work expectations?

PN44

MS LINDSAY: We haven't even got as far as addressing that. What we have got is a letter from Michelle Keyes over the last couple of days, an investigation that has commenced by Michelle Keyes in relation to the bullying. That is as far as we have got. But we haven't got as far as sorting out the issues of the unrealistic expectations with the workload. We have also got a letter from Mike Norriss, who is the regional manager, in relation to the cover surveillance. But since that letter there has still been issues that I wanted to raise which haven't been resolved with Michelle.

PN45

THE COMMISSIONER: Right, okay. Okay, let us go.

PN46

MS LINDSAY: Keep going. If I could bring to the Commissioner's attention a copy of a courier run sheet which goes to looking at the concerns with the unrealistic workload expectations. If I could - I am not sure how familiar the Commissioner is with the northern suburbs but I have a Melways here if it is required.

PN47

THE COMMISSIONER: Part of this is my old stomping ground.

PN48

MS LINDSAY: Okay.

PN49

THE COMMISSIONER: When I was much younger; not too much younger but much younger.

PN50

MS LINDSAY: Okay. If I could just bring to your attention, between 10.40 and 10.45 there is a requirement by one of the couriers to collect specimens from Northcote, St Georges Road in Northcote, and collect the specimens, go back to the car, start the car and drive to Blyth Street in Brunswick within five minutes. That is one example of the concerns we have in relation to the unrealistic expectations with work rosters.

PN51

If I could just bring to your attention, following the 15 March letter there was a number of meetings held with management. I have got copies of brief notes of these meetings, if I could bring this to the Commission's attention.

PN52

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN53

MS LINDSAY: So a process was put in place following that 15 March letter trying to address the problems with the runs. It was also highlighted in the first meeting in April that there was provision in the agreement, in the Mayne Dorevitch agreement, to set up a courier consultative committee, which did begin following that April meeting. If I could just draw to your attention on the first meeting note regarding the staffing levels again were raised, that the run changes were raised and down the bottom there is a reference to bullying.

PN54

So that raised as an afterthought, as is indicated in the notes, that - it was indicated in a way that - it was still wanted to be kept informal because the people that were making the complaint were concerned about reprisals. And at that stage there weren't names mentioned but there was a request from the HSUA that the bullying policy be displayed and that supervisors received some education regarding the bullying. So that was on the 4th of the 2nd.

PN55

On the 8th of the 5th there was another meeting where, again - the second-last dot point - that the issue of bullying was raised. On the - there was - in between those two meetings there was a courier consultative committee mentioned, that was in June, and bullying was mentioned but it was left off the minutes of that meeting. So it was raised again on 4 July at the courier consultative committee meeting and on the first note of that it does note that:

PN56

In keeping with Dorevitch Pathology's company policy, unreasonable behaviour will not be tolerated and should be reported to your manager.

PN57

The problem with this was that the bullying behaviour was coming from a manager. If I could just bring back to your attention the second lot of minutes on the second page regarding - it was the fourth-last dot point, the meeting held on 8 May where it says:

PN58

John, Health and Safety Course, Sam Kelly.

PN59

There was an issue regarding our elected occ health and safety representative regarding the occupational health and safety course that he was to attend. If I could bring it to the Commission's attention. John Cole was in receipt of winning the WorkSafe Victoria award of occupational health and safety representative of the year. So he has done work well above and beyond the role of an occupational health and safety representative and that has been acknowledged in a video that was taken by WorkSafe, acknowledged by Mayne Health.

PN60

So there was a problem regarding the occupational health and safety course that John Cole was to attend. We have brought it to management's attention that John Cole had a right to complete a course of his choosing that was WorkSafe approved. If I could give you a copy of WorkSafe's policy in relation to occupational health and safety representatives and their option to complete a course of their choosing. If I could bring your attention to the second page of this document from WorkSafe, about halfway down. It says:

PN61

Health and safety representatives have the right to choose which course to attend.

PN62

This was raised at that meeting and following that meeting I spoke to Domenic Persano, who is one of the supervisors, and brought that to his attention, that it is up to the occupational health and safety rep where they do their course. We had, also - following that I had conversations with Mike Norriss, the regional manager, regarding that and they hadn't addressed that issue and John Cole wasn't given permission to attend the course of his choosing.

PN63

If I could just move on to the issue of the covert surveillance. It came to the HSUAs attention that members had been the subject of covert surveillance following a member being dismissed for allegedly not being at the place where he said he was to be. There was a meeting held to discuss - following the termination of this member it was requested by the HSUA that we have a meeting to discuss the circumstances surrounding his termination.

PN64

During that meeting Pam Davey, who is a manager at Dorevitch, and Mike Norriss, did say that, yes, members had been followed, couriers had been followed, and had been watched during their run without their knowledge. This was of grave concern to the HSUA and to the members because of the stress caused by being followed by management.

PN65

THE COMMISSIONER: What was the purpose of following them?

PN66

MS LINDSAY: This is what I am at a loss to understand. To my knowledge, if there were concerns about whether they were where they should be at the time, that wasn't raised. Prior to the following happening there had been a trainer that had also gone along with the runs with couriers to get an idea of how the runs work. He was a new trainer who was employed by Dorevitch Pathology. But the fact that it was covert, I am assuming it was for the purposes of catching somebody out, being where they weren't allegedly supposed to be.

PN67

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN68

MS LINDSAY: Following that, the HSUA, once it was raised with management and following the issue being listed in the Commission, we did receive a letter from the regional manager to discuss with - to discuss the issue of it. The concern that the HSUA has is that, following that letter on 13 August, members have brought it to my attention that they still believe that they have been followed. I have got a statutory declaration from a member believes she was followed.

PN69

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN70

MS LINDSAY: There are two conclusions that could be drawn from this statutory declaration. One, that, in fact, Beverly was being followed by management at Dorevitch Pathology, which would be of concern given that the letter of 13 August, where there was an undertaking given that people wouldn't be subject to covert surveillance. The other possibility from the statutory declaration is that perhaps she wasn't followed but believed she was. That is still of concern that - and displays the level of concern that the members have in relation to this and that it is still a problem and that people haven't been adequately reassured by Mayne that this won't occur.

PN71

The concerns in relation to occupational health and safety are, one, that it could cause considerable stress to members. The other concern is that if somebody believes they are followed and they are watching out for being followed that they may not be taking the necessary caution in driving, which could lead to an unsafe circumstance, especially exacerbated by the fact of the unsafe workload expectations that are required by some of the couriers.

PN72

Covert surveillance, it does contravene the code of practice for the protection of workers from the international labour organisation and it also contravenes the Surveillance Devices Act 1999. If I could also discuss an issue that was raised earlier regarding John Cole and the bullying that he has sustained. If I could just bring to your attention the back of the notes from this document, there is an incident form.

PN73

THE COMMISSIONER: Right. There was an incident - - -

PN74

MS LINDSAY: That was completed on 31 July.

PN75

THE COMMISSIONER: Right, I read that.

PN76

MS LINDSAY: Read that? That has only just been - the beginning of the investigation has occurred by Michelle Keyes from Mayne Health. That began following the notice of dispute that was listed. But between 31 July and now, on 13 August John Cole received a phone call at home in the evening by the perpetrator of the bullying, David Jones, saying that he was required to go to Mike Norriss' office the next day and he should bring a union representative.

PN77

This is prior to this being investigated or any follow up. So two weeks following this incident form John Cole gets a phone call at home, by the perpetrator of the bullying, saying that he is required to attend a disciplinary meeting the next day and he is advised to bring a representative.

PN78

THE COMMISSIONER: So what happened?

PN79

MS LINDSAY: This is following the notice of dispute that was listed in the Commission.

PN80

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. So what happened? Did that - did he attend the next day?

PN81

MS LINDSAY: I rang Mike Norriss and said that we wouldn't be attending, that we were in dispute - - -

PN82

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN83

MS LINDSAY: - - - and that following that Mike Norriss hung up in my ear. I rang Mike Norriss back and said, "I am assuming that there was a problem with the mobile phone, that he had cut out. Could he please return my call" which he didn't do.

PN84

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

PN85

MS LINDSAY: Following that, I sent him a letter and I believe I sent you a courtesy copy, Commissioner, regarding that telephone conversation.

PN86

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN87

MS LINDSAY: Our investigations and subsequent discussions that John Cole has had, it turns out that the disciplinary action that was to be placed on John Cole was in relation to an occupational health and safety newsletter. If I could bring this to the Commission's attention.

PN88

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

PN89

MS LINDSAY: Did you want me to read that out, Commissioner?

PN90

THE COMMISSIONER: Not all of it.

PN91

MS LINDSAY: No. The problem - - -

PN92

THE COMMISSIONER: Is there a bit that is important?

PN93

MS LINDSAY: Well, personally, I think it is all important and it is all important because we are unsure as to exactly what part is the problem - - -

PN94

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay.

PN95

MS LINDSAY: - - - was in question in relation to the disciplinary action.

PN96

THE COMMISSIONER: Right. Okay, keep going. I had a brief look at this. Who is the deep thinker, John Cole, is he?

PN97

MS LINDSAY: John Cole is the deep thinker.

PN98

THE COMMISSIONER: I am not quite:

PN99

These stores we'll put upon young Louis' bus,

PN100

They back is crook with visage haggard,

PN101

Do rev each courier's engine thus,

PN102

Forsooth it rains, where art thy jacket?

PN103

Right.

PN104

MS LINDSAY: If I - - -

PN105

THE COMMISSIONER: Let us hope he doesn't become a member of the Commission and write decisions like that. There would be lots of appeals, wouldn't there?

[9.08am]

PN106

MS LINDSAY: That was in relation to a long-going saga regarding safety jackets following an incident with the courier being hit by a car. It was four years that John Cole was pushing to get the jackets implemented. And following the meeting on 4 April with Mike Norriss, the wheels were set in motion for that to happen and that has happened now. So that was John Cole's reference to those.

PN107

So in relation to the proposed disciplinary action regarding the health and safety newsletter, the concerns that we have are that John Cole completes these newsletters in his own time. He received an award from WorkSafe, with the blessing of Mayne Health Dorevitch Pathology, for completing these newsletters. It is quite obvious that he puts in a lot of time and effort into this and it is of concern that he was called at home by the perpetrator of the bullying, to which he had filled out an incident form in relation to, that he would receive disciplinary action over this.

PN108

THE COMMISSIONER: Right. Okay.

PN109

MS LINDSAY: When I mentioned that there had been some developments in relation to the incidents leading up to today, Michelle Keyes had completed an - not completed, I should rephrase that - has begun an investigation in relation to the incident form. She has interviewed John Cole and she has also put some mechanisms in place in relation to bullying. If I could give you a copy of the correspondence from Michelle.

PN110

THE COMMISSIONER: Right. Okay, keep going.

PN111

MS LINDSAY: Yes. The HSUA seek that Dorevitch Pathology will not conduct covert surveillance on employees and that be advertised that that is not to happen. That is especially in relation to the statutory declaration that was received by Beverly Hudson. In relation to Beverly Hudson, she has also been the victim of bullying behaviour by David Jones in that when she requested annual leave when she was - he had rung her at home, she had spoken to him about an annual leave application.

PN112

He said she couldn't have it. She had said, "Well, what am I going to do?" and he just swore at her, said "Stiff shit" and hung up in her ear, causing her great distress. So there is obvious concern in relation to bullying and harassing behaviour at Dorevitch Pathology.

PN113

We seek that there be a meeting held with Mike Norriss and John Cole in relation to the incidents leading up to today; and that John Cole be released from work to participate in the occupational health and safety course of his choosing in line with WorkSafe policy; that the victims of the bullying behaviour by David Jones receive an apology; and that David Jones be reminded of the workplace bullying procedure and policy that Mayne Health have in place; and that Dorevitch Pathology comply with the grievance and disciplinary procedures in the award.

PN114

THE COMMISSIONER: Right. Is that it?

PN115

MS LINDSAY: Thank you, Commissioner.

PN116

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Yes, Mr Nally.

PN117

MR NALLY: Well, Mr Commissioner, I would probably describe the presentation to you as a patchwork, I would suggest, because it seems to have taken a little piece of fabric for every part of the organisation, tried to meld it together into some sort of coherent fashion. I am just at a loss, in actual fact, to have the last piece, that Dorevitch Pathology comply with the disputes and grievances procedure in an award, when, quite patently, the union does not.

PN118

We have not been approached by the union with regard to some of these issues that have been raised and we continually advise Ms Lindsay that we are available, that, in actual fact, she can make contact with our centralised group personnel function to enable us to resolve these issues. I think what the exhibits that have been shown to you is that there is actually a process and there is a consultative committee and there are opportunities for people to raise issues with the company.

PN119

I also find it somewhat - I have been gob smacked, I suppose, by the fact that Ms Lindsay has suggested that Mr Cole was asked to go to a meeting with Mike Norriss and we offered the opportunity for the union to attend, which is always the situation that the union forces down our throat that there must be the opportunity to have a representative there at such meeting, and Ms Lindsay chose not to attend that meeting.

PN120

In actual fact, it was in relation to discussions about the "Voices from the Coal Face" and the manner in which that was written and it was just on a general consultative basis that Mike wanted to raise concerns about how it was written, the fact that he was really keen for things to go out such as this, was very supportive but, in actual fact, felt that some of the language needed to be toned down and needed to be more objective.

PN121

I think that discussion actually did occur informally between John and Mike and I think the parties came to a very amicable arrangement along those lines. Mr Commissioner, I am not going to actually rebut all the facts because I actually don't believe that - there are significant issues that I have with several things that have been said in relation to the claims of bullying, not alleged bullying, issues with regard to things being raised as afterthoughts, issues with regard to the approved courses.

PN122

I think Ms Lindsay has only chosen to look at parts of the section of the Act and not looked at the aspects where it does say approved courses. She has actually failed to say that a course was offered to John. He actually noted that he prefer not to go to a course, he wanted to go to a uni course. It was simply said, "We really want proof of that being an approved course" because the Act also talks about:

PN123

PN124

Approved courses may be conducted separately. Health and safety representatives have the right to choose. It is desirable for health and safety representatives and employers to agree on which course .....

PN125

So you know, out of context things sound very dramatic. And it is from our perspective we would simply like to have a process whereby I now just address the issues that HSUA seek. One is that the term "covert surveillance", that issue has been dealt with by a commitment we have given to the union in writing.

PN126

THE COMMISSIONER: It is a concern, I would have to say, Mr Nally, if that type of thing was occurring - - -

PN127

MR NALLY: Well, it has been characterised as covert surveillance. In actual fact, what the situation was, was that the piece about the trainer going out and attempting to determine the run was the case and significant inconsistencies were actually identified in reviewing that. And so there was an opportunity for a supervisor to go out and actually simply try and link up with an employee.

PN128

They weren't there where they were supposed to be. They went to the next location, they weren't there. They went to the next location. It ended up that they found him and then wondered whether they would go to the next one. It is that simple. It is not as if we have dark glasses and raincoats. It is not the use. In actual fact, the simple fact that people believe that they are being - it is not so covert. We are not attempted to do that.

PN129

It is being blown out of proportion. We have given undertakings to say the way in which we will do that is we have a duty of care, we will actually attempt to link up with our employees on every occasion and we reserve that right because there are opportunities to communicate things. If someone is not able to be contacted, etcetera, we will go through that process. So that matter is being characterised as covert and sinister. It is not the case at all, it is simply supervision.

PN130

Now, whether or not some of our supervisors are somewhat enthusiastic in the carrying out of those duties, that actually can occur. So what we aim to do is to say that we will reserve the right to link up with our employees, if we have concerns, we will, in actual fact, work through processes to advise people of concerns and then advise them that they will be required to actually report for duty to supervisors who may be at various locations. That is a fair process.

PN131

THE COMMISSIONER: I mean, the Commission doesn't have a problem. I mean, obviously, if there are reasonable times set in terms of couriers - and I say reasonable and I look at some of these times that have been set in terms of your courier duties and, I would have to tell you, that some of them are way beyond what is reasonable.

PN132

MR NALLY: Well, from that perspective - this is the first time that this has been brought to my attention.

PN133

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. I mean - - -

PN134

MR NALLY: So we are not - - -

PN135

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - those areas I know reasonably well, as I indicated, in my youth which is only a couple of years ago, and some of those times to get between one location and another are just not practicable. I mean - - -

PN136

MR NALLY: Even in your youth, I am sure that is a fair - - -

PN137

THE COMMISSIONER: And I was pretty heavy footed in those days and I couldn't do it, let me tell you.

PN138

MR NALLY: I am more than happy to take that on board, sir, and deal with that issue in the normal course of events and, in actual fact, have it brought to the attention of our supervisors and actually deal with that issue. So I suppose that what I am simply suggesting is that if we look at the issues that the HSUA seeks, we actually have addressed the first.

PN139

The second is linked to the first. The third issue with regard to a meeting, we are always open. In actual fact, Ms Lindsay has not taken the opportunity to contact ourselves. Now, my associate, Ms Keyes, was actually appointed to be the regional personnel manager for Victoria Health Services which includes pathology and we are more than happy to actually have her facilitate meetings between - and to a certain extent, group personnel can be somewhat of an intermediary between the parties. We will not be unreasonable. And that is the role that I want my staff to actually play.

PN140

The issue with that, I suppose, is that we will actually - we don't want to be a response team, and I did outline this to Mary Ann this morning. We actually want to be a partner in a business with our managers and, additionally, we will acknowledge the role of the union. And we can facilitate resolutions to problems and have done so in the last 12 months very effectively. So the issue that, I suppose, I have with seek a meeting - more than happy, but I don't think we need to come to you, sir, to actually request a meeting. I just don't believe that is the case.

PN141

Additionally, with regard to John Cole being released - yes, an approved course, yes, it will be an approved course.

PN142

THE COMMISSIONER: No.

PN143

MR NALLY: If we have not had a situation where we have had the union course and the context and the content of that course presented to us and the approval of that course actually outlined to us, we will not be in agreement with the situation. So we are more than happy to sit down and read all of the provision of that piece of legislation and apply all of that legislation to our business, more than happy to do so.

PN144

Additionally, in relation to victims of bullying, we are more than happy to investigate that process and we have commenced that process. And often times, there can be situations where people are actually dealt with in an abrupt manner and people actually don't understand the influence that they have on individuals. We have to, often times, have to temper both the reaction of employees and our managers in their normal course of events during the day.

PN145

But basically what we are saying is that we are more than happy to investigate thoroughly, independent from group personnel and not within Dorevitch Pathology, and ensure that a reasonable outcome is achieved. And then what would occur is that all parties would actually be, if you like, outlined to them the outcomes of the investigation. And for instance, if there is an over zealous manager who is abrupt, who is rude, we will talk to them. That is not the standard of our organisation.

PN146

We are, actually, in a - as you know, we are in a very nurturing industry, in the health industry. There is a juxtaposition between our industry and the corporate nature of our business. We are very consciously aware of that. So what we are wanting to do is to undertake investigations but do it on a fairly open and dispassionate basis so we can then move forward. And then if there is a requirement for us to temper the attitudes of our managers, we will do so.

PN147

So we are more than happy to actually complete that investigation and that would address number 5. Then number 5, of course, we are actually - we would only simply reiterate our commitment to the provisions of our EBA that the disputes and grievances procedure is there for the protection of all parties. And we would simply endorse that, not only our organisation would actually complete its commitment by living out that day to day, we would also like the HSUA to make a similar commitment.

PN148

So Mr Commissioner, I don't think there is anything that we can't resolve.

PN149

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN150

MR NALLY: I think we can actually do anything between ourselves if we put our minds to it. In actual fact, I really believe that the most appropriate course of action is not to go into conference, in actual fact, for you to instruct us that we should convene a meeting where all of these issues, not just the meeting between Mike Norriss and John Cole, but all these issues can be canvassed thoroughly. And I am more than happy to report back to the Commission, either in writing if they are resolved, or come back to this Commission and actually give you a full outline of the results of that meeting at the appropriate time. If it please the Commission.

PN151

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Nally. Look, I have to say that I think that is probably the more appropriate course, to direct that the parties confer over the issues that have been outlined by the HSUA. The Commission is more than happy to set a report back date, given that the matter is now before the Commission, to make that progress has been made and is being made on what are, in the Commission's view, reasonably serious assertions made about the conduct, not only of some individuals in a supervisory capacity, but in the company -but it would appear the responsibilities placed on couriers, which may not be reasonable in all the circumstances.

PN152

It does give the Commission, I would have to say, enormous concern that in the year 2002 when it is of the view, or it thought, that given all the policies that have been in place, not only by companies in regards to harassment, sexual harassment, bullying, equal partners, all those type of things, but also federally and internationally labour organisation policies in regards to those type of things, that we still have, it would appear, that some over zealous management who don't understand, in today's modern times, the implications of their manner.

PN153

Now, that needs to be addressed by all companies that have a problem like that in terms of possibly in house or external training, the same as it would apply to, for instance, advance training courses to regular drivers, couriers. That is in place to ensure that they act constructively, that they are able to react properly, taking into account all the circumstances surrounding their day-to-day activities.

PN154

The same obligation, in the Commission's view, should be placed upon supervisory and management and they need to understand the implications of their mannerisms and their overall management style on any effects it may have on the day-to-day operations of the workplace. So I think that needs to be looked at in the total context of addressing a range of issues that have been raised by the HSUA.

PN155

So the Commission will, so this matter doesn't drag on, it will set 10.15 on 18 September as a report back date to see what progress has been made. If, for instance, both parties believe that that may be a bit too early or they are in the process of making further progress and they would like an extension to that, then they are free to contact the Commission. Is that a fair enough position, Mr Nally?

PN156

MR NALLY: Yes.

PN157

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Ms Lindsay?

PN158

MS LINDSAY: Thank you, Commissioner.

PN159

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Thank you. The Commission will stand adjourned until 10.15 am, Wednesday, 18 September.

ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 18 SEPTEMBER 2002 [9.27am]