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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114 MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
DX 305 Melbourne Tel:(03) 9672-5608 Fax:(03) 9670-8883
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N VT234
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
COMMISSIONER HOLMES
C No 00939 of 1998
C2002/3437
C2002/3438
C2002/3439
C2002/3665
C2002/3669
AMBULANCE EMPLOYEES - VICTORIA
INTERIM ORDER 1994
Review under Item 51, Schedule 5, Transitional
WROLA Act 1996 re conditions of employment
Applications under section 113 of the Act by
Victorian Patient Transport and Others to vary
the above award
MELBOURNE
10.12 AM, WEDNESDAY, 2 OCTOBER 2002
Continued from 1.10.02
PN2383
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Friend.
PN2384
MR FRIEND: Thank you, Commissioner. Commissioner, yesterday you asked for clarification about one of the lines in exhibit RN5. We found a copy which we can read through the highlighting. I can read that out for you and for everyone else. The words are:
PN2385
Drive vehicles under operational conditions.
PN2386
Can I also say that we have, for our part, considered the issue that you raised yesterday concerning an inspection of MAS or RAV. We have not yet discussed this with the other parties, but we are of the view that probably some inspection of MAS vehicle, and also of an RAV vehicle with patient transport officers on it, because MAS do not have patient transport vehicles.
PN2387
It might be helpful about putting the whole industry into context, and so there will be discussions among the parties in an attempt to organise a timetable. We can perhaps contact your Associate in due course to see how that goes. Thank you, sir.
PN2388
PN2389
MR FRIEND: Your full name is Richard Andrew Aird Bearup?---That is correct.
PN2390
And you live at 42 Bayville Drive in Dingley?---Yes.
PN2391
You are employed as an Ambulance Officer and Clinical Instructor, is that correct?---Yes.
PN2392
You have prepared a statement in relation to this matter of some 13 paragraphs?---Correct.
PN2393
Have you re-read that statement recently?---I have.
PN2394
Is it true and correct?---It is.
PN2395
PN2396
MR FRIEND: Now, Mr Bearup, in paragraph 4 you describe yourself as a Clinical Instructor. Whom do you instruct?---There are the employees of the company who are at present engaged in an ATA course, an Ambulance Transport Attendant course, and employees of Metropolitan Ambulance Service who are allowed to work on the road with us, or at public duties if they are under the supervision of a clinical instructor, as a requirement by MAS, not being fully qualified officers. The ATAs undergoing a course at Victoria University actually come out and are required to do their clinical on field component with a clinical instructor also.
**** RICHARD ANDREW AIRD BEARUP XN MR FRIEND
PN2397
Now, the MAS employees, are they qualified Ambulance paramedics, or are they students?---They are student ambulance paramedics.
PN2398
And they do part of their training with you as an instructor?---Not compulsorily, but they have the option to work out of MASs employment with a private contractor. If they are working at a public duty which requires a fully qualified officer, they are only allowed to work at a student level 2 level and above, and with a clinical instructor until they are qualified.
PN2399
How long have you been a clinical instructor?---Since 1995.
PN2400
Can you look at these two documents, please. Now, firstly, with the blue documents, can you describe what that is, please?---That is a transport docket. That is filled out when transporting a patient under the auspices of the non-emergency patient transport system. And that is an MAS document which is submitted to our employer, and then submitted to MAS for accounting purposes.
PN2401
Does that have anything about patient care in it?---No, it doesn't.
PN2402
The green document, what is that?---This ia PCR, which stands for patient care record. Once again, it is an MAS document which is filled out under the auspices of our employment subcontracting through to MAS. That is filled out with all the respective and relevant details regarding the patient. any interventive care that they receive. It is in triplicate. One copy is retained by the Ambulance Service, one copy is presented to the receiving hospital as specified in the lower right-hand corner, a doctor, RN, or other professional. And a third copy is an audit copy which is retained either by MAS or the employer for audit purposes.
PN2403
And do you fill these out in the course of your work?---I do.
**** RICHARD ANDREW AIRD BEARUP XN MR FRIEND
PN2404
How often do you fill one of these out?---Increasingly. Do I need to give any specific examples at all?
PN2405
No, no. Is it something you do once a week?---It is. These are filled out regularly every day; every day.
PN2406
THE COMMISSIONER: Just for the record, the reference is made to PCRs in that exchange.
PN2407
MR FRIEND: Thank you, Commissioner. Commissioner, I don't know if you wish those tendered as a group, or separately.
PN2408
PN2409
PN2410
MR QUIGLEY: Mr Bearup, do you work according to the terms of the job description for an ambulance officer with MTS?---I do.
**** RICHARD ANDREW AIRD BEARUP XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2411
And is that job description a true description of the duties that you are called upon to carry out?---I believe it to be so.
PN2412
In paragraph 5 of your statement - have you got that there?---I do.
PN2413
You make a reference to certain training that you have received in respect of drugs and equipment. Do you see that?---I have that there. I don't see in paragraph 5 a reference to receiving training as an MTS officer.
PN2414
So you say, "I am trained and responsible for??---Yes.
PN2415
So you have received training in those things, is what you are saying?---Yes. Sorry, my misinterpretation of the question.
PN2416
And do you recall when you received that training?---In my employment with Metropolitan Ambulance Service with MAS.
PN2417
Could you put a time period of that? I know you worked with the Government service up to 1994, so it would have been - all of that training that you refer there was during that period up to 1994?---That is correct. It is ongoing training from commencement of employment right through.
PN2418
Are you aware if any of that training took place before 1988 or 1989?---Absolutely.
PN2419
Are you talking about all of those, or just some of those?---Some of those.
PN2420
Could you identify which ones you refer to?---Certainly. Oxygen, Penthrane, the splints reference, dressings/bandages reference, therapeutic oxygen, cervical collars, cardiac monitor defibrillator. And I would guess, without referring to any specific training documents, that the Anginine and - - -
**** RICHARD ANDREW AIRD BEARUP XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2421
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Bearup, it is important that you give evidence as to what you clearly recollect?---Yes. I can clearly recollect all of those as mentioned previously. There was a CEP, which is a continuing education program, in place which over the period through to 1988 covered the rest of those drugs and equipment. As I say, without referring to a specific document giving a date, I would believe it to be prior to 1988. A training program was in place at that time. Every officer is rostered through it, rotated through it in the course of their employment.
PN2422
MR QUIGLEY: Is it a custom for ambulance officers to maintain a record of the training that they receive, in either a book, or something like that?---Where documentation is provided, I have maintained a file.
PN2423
So, if it was necessary to seek further clarification on that point, do you believe that you would have documentation on that point?---I would, yes.
PN2424
There are a number of other drugs that are used within the sphere of ambulance officers, such as Glycogen, Narcan, Midezolam, Adrenalin: do you have any training in respect of those?---No, I don't.
PN2425
Would you find it useful if you did?---I would.
PN2426
And what about the use of glucometers, would you find it useful to have training in the use of those?---Possibly.
PN2427
On my calculations of your work experience, Mr Bearup, you appear to have been a qualified ambulance officer for some 18 years, is that correct?---I would say in excess of 18 years.
PN2428
In excess of 18 years?---Yes.
**** RICHARD ANDREW AIRD BEARUP XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2429
And is it fair to say that the training and qualifications that you have beyond that which is required in the non-emergency patient transport sector?---Sorry, could you ask the question again?
PN2430
Could you tell me if you think it is fair to say that the training and qualifications that you hold are beyond those which are required for the non-emergency patient transport sector?---No, I don't think so.
PN2431
Is it your view that the training and qualifications that you have are appropriate for that?---Correct.
PN2432
And did you make that comment, bearing in mind the fact that MTS do a number of activities such as public duty work?---That is correct.
PN2433
And do you yourself engage in public duty work?---I do.
PN2434
You are aware, I take it, of Mr John Brown, a director of MTS?---Yes.
PN2435
Mr Brown will be giving evidence that the ambulance officers employed by MTS have qualifications and experience which in his opinion is beyond the minimum level that is required by MAS and RAV. Would you have any comment on that?---I believe the work that we are presented with requires a level of qualification commensurate with that which I hold, and also the people I work with.
PN2436
Because I know Mr Brown is particularly proud of the standard and the qualifications of the employees who work for MTS: would you agree with that?---I would.
PN2437
Now, Mr Bearup, it appears from your statement it is some eight years since you worked in the Government run Ambulance Service: would you agree with that?---That is true.
**** RICHARD ANDREW AIRD BEARUP XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2438
And do you believe that the qualifications and training and experience that you have would allow you to work as an ambulance officer with MAS or RAV?---At present the qualifications are not the minimum required as employment as an Ambulance Paramedic. However, application to be re-employed, and to take part in a bridging course is currently underway.
PN2439
Do you maintain your CEP 7?---I do.
PN2440
Would you know from your own knowledge whether or not all ambulance officers employed by MAS and RAV maintain their CEP 7?---It is a requirement of employment that all officers re-accredit on an annual basis.
PN2441
It might be a requirement, but are you aware some don't?---I don't work for MAS directly, so I cannot comment on that.
PN2442
Now, you indicated that you do take part in the standby cover of public events. When was the last time you did that?---One week ago.
PN2443
And do you believe that that work is within your capability to perform?---I do.
PN2444
You see, Mr Morris, the national secretary of the union, does not believe that people like yourself are capable or proper to perform that work. What would you say about that?---The current requirement from the - for example the VRC, is that the attending officers be qualified and accredited ambulance officers. That is a level at which I am trained, and that is their requirement at this point in time.
PN2445
So would you refute Mr Morris' comment?
PN2446
MR FRIEND: Well, we will have to refer to the transcript about what Mr Morris said. We don't believe that that is what he said about that work. But I will let the questioning go on.
**** RICHARD ANDREW AIRD BEARUP XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2447
MR QUIGLEY: Commissioner, it might be that we have to call on the transcript, because my recollection and notes of what Mr Morris said, not only did he say that the private operators ought not to be taking part in the public events work, he then went on to make some scurrilous suggestions about the conduct, alleged conduct of some of those companies. Mr Bearup, as you can see, is a highly qualified ambulance officer. In his opinion he is quite - more than well qualified. I would ask the Commission to note his exact words, but he has got no doubt that he is sufficiently qualified to conduct this work. I don't take the point any further than that.
PN2448
THE COMMISSIONER: Proceed, Mr Quigley.
PN2449
MR FRIEND: Commissioner, I am not trying to stop the questioning. I am simply making a note that we don't agree that that is what was said, but we will need to refer to the transcript.
PN2450
THE COMMISSIONER: Certainly.
PN2451
MR QUIGLEY: I am happy with that situation, Commissioner.
PN2452
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well, when the transcript becomes available, I would expect that it would be before this matter is finished - these proceedings are finished. So it can be dealt with in closing submissions.
PN2453
MR QUIGLEY: Thank you, Commissioner.
PN2454
THE COMMISSIONER: And if necessary, you can call a witness.
PN2455
MR QUIGLEY: Are you aware, Mr Bearup, that it is in fact the union policy that only the Government run ambulance services provide this standby public duty work?---I am aware that is an approach being made.
**** RICHARD ANDREW AIRD BEARUP XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2456
And are you aware that they have in fact made representations in relation to that, to a discussion paper that was prepared by the relevant Victorian Government department?---I have not been privy to any documentation to that effect.
PN2457
Are you a member of the union, Mr Bearup?---I am indeed.
PN2458
And do you recall whether or not the union consulted you in relation to that point?
PN2459
MR FRIEND: Well, what is the relevance of this, Commissioner, to anything? Firstly, that policy has not been established by evidence. Mr Morris was not asked about it. And now we are going off onto a tangent about whether or not this witness was consulted about a policy which may or may not exist, that has not been established by evidence.
PN2460
MR QUIGLEY: We have put submissions in respect of this issue, Commissioner. But I won't press the point. It is a matter of record that that is the union's position. I do not take it any further than that.
PN2461
THE COMMISSIONER: Proceed.
PN2462
MR QUIGLEY: Mr Bearup, the public duty work that you have attended, does that include horse races?---It does.
PN2463
Harness races?---It does.
PN2464
Did you attend the Grand Prix?---No.
**** RICHARD ANDREW AIRD BEARUP XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2465
Was that because MTS did not have representatives there?---No.
PN2466
It is just you were not on the shift that day?---Do you wish me to elaborate?
PN2467
Yes?---MTS is not contracted to provide staff to the Grand Prix.
PN2468
What about other car racing events, and other motor sport?---Yes.
PN2469
AFL and Rugby football?---Yes.
PN2470
Moomba?---I haven't personally. I don't know whether the company provides staff for it.
PN2471
Have you attended an ANZAC Day parade?---I have not.
PN2472
When you perform standby duty at public events, do you receive an additional payment?---In respect of?
PN2473
Because of your attendance at a public event?---An additional payment in respect of my salary?
PN2474
Yes?---No.
PN2475
You have referred in paragraph 11 of your statement to a meal allowance. Do you see that?---Yes. If I may go back one question?
PN2476
Yes?---The additional payment you refer to over and above what I am paid as my hourly rate for that duty, is that what you are requesting?
**** RICHARD ANDREW AIRD BEARUP XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2477
Yes. It was my understanding that ambulance officers employed by MTS receive an additional payment when they are - for being engaged in public duty work?---The rate of pay is different to the on-road rate of pay. By that, I did not interpret that to mean an additional payment. That is my regulated hourly rate for those duties.
PN2478
You are confusing me now, Mr Bearup. Are you saying that you do - that your rate of pay takes account of your attendance at public duties work?---It does, but I did not consider that to be an additional payment in respect of my hourly salary, my hourly rate.
PN2479
And are you saying that you are paid that hourly rate all the time?---Correct. For the public duty.
PN2480
Is that the same as the hourly rate you receive for other duties?---No.
PN2481
So it is different?---Correct.
PN2482
And it is higher, is it?---It is.
PN2483
So can we deduce from that, that there is an additional payment made when you perform public duty standby work?---The rate of pay is different for those duties. I didn't consider the inference in the question to mean, was I paid a different hourly rate. The question directed me, was I paid an additional payment. So it was my interpretation of the question.
PN2484
I will start again. When you do public duties work, do you get paid the higher rate than you get when you are doing ordinary work?---Correct.
PN2485
And is it your understanding you are paid the higher rate because you are doing public duty work?---It was a rate that was struck at the outset, when the company first took on all these duties, and I have not had cause to question the reasons.
**** RICHARD ANDREW AIRD BEARUP XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2486
And is that payment set out in the Australian Workplace Agreement that you are a party to?---It is.
PN2487
Can I take you to paragraph 11 of your statement, Mr Bearup. You say that under your Australian Workplace Agreement you are provided with a meal allowance to compensate you for the purchasing of a meal when you are away from your workplace: do you see that?---That is correct, I do.
PN2488
When you are away from your workplace and you have a meal, where do you take that?---It varies. It is wherever it is possible to take a meal.
PN2489
And can that include the canteen at a hospital?---If there is a canteen at a hospital, and if it is open for business, and if there is anything available there for purchase.
PN2490
Have you ever been denied access to a canteen, whether a staff canteen or a public canteen at a hospital?---Absolutely, because they have been outside their hours of normal business.
PN2491
What about during the hours of normal business?---No.
PN2492
You make a reference in paragraph 12 to working shift work, and the hours of work involved in an ambulance officer. You would agree with me, wouldn't you, that the work of an ambulance officer is not a 9 to 5 arrangement?---Correct.
PN2493
And that it has ever been thus?---To my knowledge, yes.
PN2494
I have no other questions for the witness, Commissioner.
**** RICHARD ANDREW AIRD BEARUP XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2495
PN2496
MR FRIEND: Mr Bearup, you were asked about the contents of paragraph 5, administration of oxygen, Salbutamol, and what have you. And you were asked particularly to focus your mind on the training you had received before 1988 while you were at MAS. What that training that you have referred to compromised by the CEP units that are given by MAS?---Complemented or compromised?
PN2497
Compromised?---I don't believe so.
PN2498
Aside from your initial training, what other training did you receive at MAS? I just want the name of the type of training, rather than the things you did?---The continued education programs?
PN2499
Yes, that is the CEPS?---Yes, correct.
PN2500
Well, what else?---There are other courses that are run in Station Officer management courses.
PN2501
None of those things come within the Station Officer - - -?---No, that is correct.
PN2502
In terms of treatment or protocols, was it all compromised by the CEP?---I am sorry, the word "compromised" to me, confuses me in relation to the question.
PN2503
I am sorry. Was there anything other than CEP, about training for treatments and protocols?---Yes, there was always updated information, whenever we were brought in for re-accreditation, or an update to another CEP level. At each running of the course there was information on changes in procedure, or changes in names of drugs, or perhaps in treatment of certain conditions, which was applied as an adjunct to the course when you went in to a - - -
**** RICHARD ANDREW AIRD BEARUP RXN MR FRIEND
PN2504
What course are you talking about?---Any of the CEP courses.
PN2505
So this is all part of the CEP course?---It was run as part of the CEPs; in conjunction with those.
PN2506
And that is where you learned about all of those things that you referred to in paragraph 5, in CEP?---The majority - well, all of those things in paragraph 5 are part of the ambulance officer course and the qualifications, and you must be conversant and pass in all of those.
PN2507
I am talking about where you learned them?---At the AATC.
[10.40am]
PN2508
You didn't learn any of these on - in the CEP?---Yes.
PN2509
Have a look at them?---Yes, yes, absolutely. Salbutamol.
PN2510
Yes?---Anginine.
PN2511
Yes?---Aspirin.
PN2512
Yes?---Cardiac monitor Defibrillator.
PN2513
Yes?---And that would cover it.
PN2514
Yes, all right. And can you recall when you took the CEP courses where you learned those specific items?---They were at the Ambulance Officer Training Centre.
**** RICHARD ANDREW AIRD BEARUP RXN MR FRIEND
PN2515
Can you recall when?---In the years from 1985 through to 1992, bearing in mind that there are updates and re-accreditations in the existing - - -
PN2516
And would some of them been in the earlier part of those years and some of them in the later?---Correct. They followed numerically from one through to seven.
PN2517
PN2518
PN2519
MR FRIEND: Is your full name William George McKnight?---That is correct.
PN2520
Do you live at 24 Dee Why Road, Narre Warren?---Correct.
PN2521
You have prepared a statement in this matter of some 20 paragraphs?---That is correct.
PN2522
Do you have a copy of that there?---I have, yes.
PN2523
Have you re-read that recently?---Yes.
PN2524
Is it true and correct?---It is true and correct.
PN2525
PN2526
MR FRIEND: Mr McKnight, will you look at this document, please. Do you see in paragraph 13 of your statement you have referred to 387 patient care records?---Yes.
PN2527
THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, what paragraph was that?
PN2528
MR FRIEND: 13 of the statement.
PN2529
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
**** WILLIAM GEORGE McKNIGHT XN MR FRIEND
PN2530
MR FRIEND: And did you obtain that information from this newsletter?---That is correct, yes.
PN2531
And is that a newsletter that is given to staff by Wilson Patient Transport?---Yes.
PN2532
PN2533
MR FRIEND: Did you want to say something else about that, Mr McKnight?---This is something new, it has just been introduced since Mr Don Litchen came along. It is quite informative.
PN2534
Thank you. Patient care records. Could the witness be shown exhibit F21, please. Is that the sort of document you are referring to as - - -?---Yes. We have - - -
PN2535
- - - patient care records?---Sorry. Reference to these, yes, that is a type of PCR we would fill in.
PN2536
Thank you. If you could wait there, please, Mr McKnight.
PN2537
**** WILLIAM GEORGE McKNIGHT XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2538
MR QUIGLEY: Thank you, Mr McKnight. You left the Metropolitan Ambulance Service, what was it, back in the early '90s, 1993, wasn't it, Mr McKnight?---That is correct, September 23.
PN2539
You left of your own accord?---I did.
PN2540
You weren't forced out?---No.
PN2541
Do you believe that you have got the skills, training and experience to perform the role of an ambulance officer in MAS?---Do I believe I have them? Yes, I do.
PN2542
And do you in your work at Wilsons perform any standby cover at public events?---No.
PN2543
You say at paragraph 15 of your statement, can you see that, have you got that there, you make a reference to some evidence that Mr David Wilson from Patient Transit Care is giving in these proceedings, and you refute his claim that employees in the non-emergency sector do not transport psychiatric patients, and you say that for the last six years you and your colleagues have transported and cared for psychiatric patients, both voluntary and involuntary. Do you see that?---That is correct, many times.
PN2544
Do you believe that the transport of such patients as you have done has been in keeping with the requirements of the Mental Health Act?---Yes, to my knowledge it is.
PN2545
Now, you say at paragraph 17 that an ambulance officer or ambulance attendant is required on every vehicle:
**** WILLIAM GEORGE McKNIGHT XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2546
..because any patient has the potential for their clinical status to unexpectedly deteriorate.
PN2547
Do you still believe that that statement is correct?---I believe so, yes.
PN2548
Now, that is a matter of your opinion, isn't it?---That is correct, yes.
PN2549
Because it is not mandated, is it, that an ambulance officer or an ambulance attendant is required on every vehicle?---Well, it is my belief that they should be, yes, an ambulance officer or an ambulance attendant.
PN2550
Yes. I know it is your belief that it should be, but what I am saying is it is not covered in any regulation or legislation or government directions that that be the case, is it?---I know MAS require an ambulance officer when we work on an Intergraph site, an ambulance officer or an ambulance attendant with certain qualifications to care for their patients.
PN2551
Yes, but it is possible - - -?---I don't know about the government regulation, to be honest.
PN2552
It is possible, is it not, that a person other than an ambulance officer or ambulance attendant can transport patients?---It is possible, but I don't believe it should happen.
PN2553
You say at paragraph 19 that everyone working in the ambulance area should have the same conditions of employment. Do you see that?---Sorry, was that paragraph - - -
PN2554
You say at paragraph 19?---Yes.
**** WILLIAM GEORGE McKNIGHT XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2555
That the conditions of employment should be the same for everyone working in the ambulance area. Do you see that?---Yes, yes.
PN2556
Do you believe that that statement should apply across Australia?---Across Australia?
PN2557
Across Australia?---I don't see why not.
PN2558
Given your comment on the desirability of common conditions of employment for people in the ambulance area, can we assume from that that you believe that private sector ambulance officers should not be prevented from engaging in work beyond routine non-emergency work?---Beyond routine emergency work?
PN2559
Yes?---Well, that is debatable. If I came - for instance, if I came across an accident in my normal line of duty which I did about two weeks ago returning to the branch, I am morally obliged to stop and render assistance, which I did.
PN2560
I am talking about more than coming across the odd accident, Mr McKnight. In your own circumstances would you believe that you are trained and skilled and experience enough to deal with more than a routine non-emergency patient transport case?---Only in certain cases. Today's ambulance paramedic is more highly qualified than what I am. They have a lot more skills in drugs and equipment now than what I did in my day.
PN2561
And the work that you are asked to do at Wilsons isn't beyond the limits of your skills and qualifications and experience though, is it?---Most times, no. I mean, they would never call us in the car and say there is an accident on the corner of Smith Street and Victoria Street in Collingwood.
PN2562
Yes. So what you are saying is you are not called on to do work that is - - -?---I am sorry?
**** WILLIAM GEORGE McKNIGHT XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2563
You are saying that you are not called on by the employer to do more than what your job specification - - -?---Not emergency work, not emergency work. We don't respond to emergencies.
PN2564
Can I take you to this newsletter that you brought with you. I am sorry, Commissioner, I didn't note the exhibit number before.
PN2565
THE COMMISSIONER: F24.
PN2566
MR QUIGLEY: Thank you, Commissioner.
PN2567
And this has the appearance of a document that is put out by your employer?---Yes.
PN2568
And - - -?---We actually got one that was included in our pay envelopes, so it was. I think this is the one, actually.
PN2569
And is the purpose of this being presented to the Commission to draw attention to the - - -
PN2570
MR FRIEND: The witness can't say what the purpose of this being presented to the Commission is. We will make submissions on it. The document has been introduced to evidence through the Commission, and the witness can be cross-examined about its contents.
PN2571
MR QUIGLEY: The document that you brought with you, Mr McKnight, has references to PCRs. Do you see that?---Yes.
PN2572
And you have made a reference in your statement to PCRs, haven't you?---I did, yes. That is correct.
**** WILLIAM GEORGE McKNIGHT XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2573
You said at paragraph 13 that you are very surprised at the statement made by Mr Brown of Medical Transit Services, where he said that there is only 81 crews, in other words, 81 staff have filled out a patient care record. On your assessment, how many staff or crews at Wilsons would have completed a PCR? Would you be in a position to answer that?---I don't know, sir. I mean, I could maybe fill in four in the one day. Someone may fill in two, so it is a bit difficult.
PN2574
So if it was you and Billy Bloggs, based on Mr Brown's methodology, that would represent two crew filling out a PCR for that day, wouldn't it?---Well, I am looking at this, says 81 crews - from 1993.
PN2575
Yes, that is right?---I just couldn't understand it.
PN2576
Does it make sense the way I have explained it to you now?---No.
PN2577
What Mr Brown is saying is that 81 crews have completed PCRs?---Yes. Well, perhaps I have misinterpreted it.
PN2578
He is not saying that only 81 PCRs have been completed in that time, otherwise he would have stated it differently?---Well, I am sorry, I had interpreted it the other way.
PN2579
So having had that distinction explained to you, are you surprised or now no longer surprised?---I suppose I have to accept it. If that is what you say, that is so.
PN2580
It may be that without knowing the number of employees at MTS which I don't presume you to have that knowledge, that might be difficult for you?---Yes.
**** WILLIAM GEORGE McKNIGHT XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2581
To make such an assessment. I have no other questions of the witness, Commissioner.
PN2582
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Quigley. Yes?
PN2583
MR FRIEND: No re-examination, Commissioner.
PN2584
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr McKnight. You are excused. I must direct you not to speak to anyone who is yet to give evidence about your evidence and the evidence that they might give?---Thank you.
PN2585
And I might say I like your tie. It is a Scottish thistle, is it?---In fact it is an Irish regiment.
PN2586
An Irish regiment, is it? I have got it wrong. I wasn't sure whether you were from Northern Ireland or Scotland, you see, and I have got a Scottish tie on, so that is why I - I am sorry about that.
PN2587
PN2588
PN2589
MR FRIEND: Is your full name Pamela Vivienne Brunswick?---That is correct.
PN2590
And you live at 10 Pinewood Drive in Wantirna South?---Yes, that is right.
PN2591
You have prepared a statement in this matter of some 37 paragraphs. Is that correct?---That is correct.
PN2592
Have you re-read that recently?---I have.
PN2593
Is it true and correct?---It is true and correct.
PN2594
PN2595
MR FRIEND: It is F18. Now, Ms Brunswick, in the course of your work are you ever required to pick up people and take them to an accident and emergency department?---Yes, I have.
PN2596
And has it ever happened that those sorts of calls occurred more than once on a day?---Quite often that has occurred more than once on a day.
PN2597
There was a time recently when you had a number of those jobs following on one from another?---Yes, there has.
**** PAMELA VIVIENNE BRUNSWICK XN MR FRIEND
PN2598
Can you just describe briefly the circumstances of that?---It just happened to be a fairly busy day for the despatches and the jobs that came through on that day were of a semi-emergency type job, and the clinician who works in the despatching centre actually said that it was required that some of the non-emergency cars had to do these jobs, and we were despatched to jobs which happens quite frequently, and they actually require fairly intense work and observation of the patient on the trip.
PN2599
What do you mean by a semi-emergency job? Is it something that you have to use lights and sirens for?---Not essentially, no. It is basically what they would call say - it is still what they would call a signal two or three job, which is not necessarily sirens.
PN2600
Yes?---And the patient is not in urgent need of attention. It is more that they have got to be assessed in an emergency hospital and treated within say a one to two-hour period rather than immediately.
PN2601
And when you attend on those patients do you have to do anything with them, or just take them to the hospital?---When we arrive we basically - we talk to any relatives and the patient that are there, we take all their medical details, we read the doctor's letter, and find out if he has actually assisted the patient prior to us getting there. We have to note all their medication, any allergies. We have to take all our observations which are pulse and blood pressure respirations, we have to do assessments on their breathing, their conscious state, then we safely get them into the ambulance and we continue observing them on the trip.
PN2602
Yes?---Which we have to do according to guidelines every 15 minutes until we get them to the accident and emergency hospital.
PN2603
Do you treat them at all in the ambulance?---Yes, we do.
**** PAMELA VIVIENNE BRUNSWICK XN MR FRIEND
PN2604
Yes, what sort of treatments?---We have got four basic drugs that we can use according to the needs of the patient. We have got a pain relieving drug called Penthrane, we have got a cardiac drug called Anginine, we have got Salbutamol for respiratory problems, and we have also got aspirin, and we can also administer oxygen and we have got suction equipment if required.
PN2605
And what does taking observations involve?---Taking their basic vital signs involves taking their blood pressure pulse respirations, and you look at the rhythm of the pulse, the type of respiration, you have got to assess all the time whether that patient is requiring the drugs that I just spoke about.
PN2606
Yes?---You have to decide whether they need oxygen. You are the decision-maker at this time, so you are the one deciding. In your observations you check their conscious state, their pupils, if they are equal in reacting. You just assess their level of conscious state and whether they are coherent or confused.
PN2607
Yes?---You check if they have got normal use of their limbs and all that sort of thing in relation to fractures and following a fall and that type of thing.
PN2608
Pardon me one moment. Thank you. If you could wait there, please.
PN2609
PN2610
MR QUIGLEY: Ms Brunswick, you have just come up to five years' service with MTS. Is that right?---That is correct.
PN2611
And your initial period of employment with the company was as a patient transport officer. Is that correct?---That is correct.
**** PAMELA VIVIENNE BRUNSWICK XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2612
And you undertook training after you joined MTS to move into another level of position?---Yes, I did.
PN2613
Now, you say at paragraph 23 of your statement - do you have that with you?---I do.
PN2614
You say at paragraph 23 that when you work with a patient transport officer the ambulance attendant is responsible for the patient care on the vehicle on that day. Do you still agree with that?---I do.
PN2615
And you point out at paragraph 24 that the patient transport officer works under the direction of the ambulance attendant. Is that still your evidence?---Sorry, could you repeat that again. I am not quite sure on that one what you are - - -
PN2616
You say at paragraph 24 that the patient transport officer works under the direction of the ambulance attendant?---That is correct.
PN2617
And you say that the patient transport officer usually drives when there is a patient on board. Do you see that?---Yes.
PN2618
Are there cases where the PGA does not drive the vehicle?---Usually the only occasion would be in between patient transport, the patient transport officer is really there to drive the vehicle. They are not there to attend to the patient care.
PN2619
Right. So that is the point that you are making there, not that there might be somebody else driving the vehicle?---That is correct.
**** PAMELA VIVIENNE BRUNSWICK XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2620
At paragraph 28 you refer to an increasing amount of post-trauma work. You refer in particular to the case of a fall at home or in a nursing home, or cardiac pain. Something like a fall at home, for example, that is not what you would call emergency work, is it?---I guess it depends how you define emergency, but I guess in the past it has been. I feel it is an emergency in that you are not quite sure of the repercussions of that fall, so I consider it as - well, I guess you grade it in a level of an emergency, but that is up to the clinician when it is despatched.
PN2621
So if somebody fell over at home and broke an arm, in your opinion is that an emergency?---Only in that I would have to ensure that patient got safely and expediently to an ANE at the hospital, so in that case it is an emergency in that they have to be seen by an emergency doctor.
PN2622
In those circumstances, who determines the nature of the transport or the potential transport case?---Basically whoever has rung OOO or rung the ambulance service. It is assessed there in Intergraph, and then that job is despatched accordingly via the clinician, the ambulance clinician in Intergraph.
PN2623
Because they in taking such call they seek to learn as much as they can about the circumstances, don't they?---They do, yes.
PN2624
As best they can in the circumstances?---Yes. Well, when someone makes a phone call sometimes they are in a panic state, so it may be a little different to what they see.
PN2625
Yes. You refer at paragraph 29 of where you recently despatched to pick up a patient at home who had undergone recent cardiac surgery and had a significant pleuritic chest. Do you recall that?---I do. I know myself perhaps not everyone coming through is an ambulance attendant - now would be.
[11.06]
**** PAMELA VIVIENNE BRUNSWICK XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2626
And do you say that because of your extensive experience previously with the RDNS?---I do.
PN2627
With that particular case who assigned that transport to MTS?---I was assigned that case by the normal system, via Intergraph, and I actually asked if it had been re-assessed - knowing the degree of urgency and also the patient's problems. And it had been checked twice by the Commission and was okayed for the non-emergency ambulance to take this patient.
PN2628
Is this case that you are referring to in paragraph 29 the same case that you were referring to when Mr Friend was asking you questions?---Sorry, I am not quit sure what - - -
PN2629
When you got into the witness box Mr Friend asked you some questions about some particular circumstances that you had dealt with. And I was wondering if the case in paragraph 29 is one of those circumstances?---Right. Relating back to when I had a consecutive - - -
PN2630
Yes?---Yes.
PN2631
Yes?---I can't quite recollect that.
PN2632
Right?---I can't tell you exactly if it was the same week.
PN2633
Okay?---I am not sure.
PN2634
Do you refer at paragraph 30 to, in your words:
PN2635
Ambulance attendants now also do more intensive care transfers and coronary care transfers.
**** PAMELA VIVIENNE BRUNSWICK XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2636
Do you see that?---I do, yes.
PN2637
Yes. Yes. Are any of these beyond the level of your training and experience?---No. If they were I would certainly be looking at them getting an emergency ambulance to do them.
PN2638
Have you ever had a case where you have said to the management of MTS that they are asking you to do something that is beyond the limit of your skills and experience?---No, I haven't personally. No.
PN2639
You refer in paragraph 31, Ms Brunswick, to psychiatric patients. In fact you talking about dealing with "difficult" psychiatric patients. You would agree with me, wouldn't you, that you are not required to work beyond the limits of your training and experience in respect of those?---I agree, yes.
PN2640
Yes. I have no other questions for the witness, Commissioner.
PN2641
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Friend.
PN2642
MR FRIEND: No re-examination, Commissioner.
PN2643
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. I just have a couple of questions.
PN2644
Do I take it that your references to taking observations of blood pressure, respiratory signs, etcetera, with some patients involves in a PCR?---That is correct.
PN2645
How many PCRs would you complete in an average week, do you think?---It is many and varied. But I guess it would be - it could be anything between four and 10 of the large PCRs. Sometimes more, sometimes less.
**** PAMELA VIVIENNE BRUNSWICK XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2646
In relation to your assessments of patients you are asked to transport, have you ever indicated to the hospital and refused to transfer patients because you believe that they require emergency service?---Sorry, I didn't quite hear - have I ever refused?
PN2647
Yes. Have you said, "Look, this patient, I can't transport this patient. They need to to go in an emergency vehicle"?---In that situation if I found a patient that needs an emergency car with their particular equipment, I have rung the clinician from where I have been and requested that.
PN2648
Yes?---Requested emergency car.
PN2649
And can you give me an indication of how often that might have occurred?---To myself personally, I haven't done it an awful lot. But it does happen from time-to-time if the patient has deteriorated from the time they have been despatched to you and you feel they are in need of more intense care, like a MICA officer with their equipment and their drugs. But sometimes you have to relate to time versus the care, so you might be quicker getting the patient to the hospital than another car coming to you; or you might actually rendezvous.
PN2650
Thank you. Are there any questions which flow from my questions?
PN2651
MR FRIEND: No, sir.
PN2652
MR QUIGLEY: No, Commissioner
PN2653
THE COMMISSIONER: You are excused, Ms Brunswick. I must instruct you not to speak to anyone who is yet to give evidence in this case about your evidence or the evidence that they might give. But obviously other work matters you can certainly talk to them about?---Thank you.
**** PAMELA VIVIENNE BRUNSWICK XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2654
PN2655
MR FRIEND: Commissioner, there is one more witness this morning. I see the time - - -
PN2656
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN2657
MR FRIEND: - - - you know, if you wanted to - there would be plenty of time to deal with Mr McDonell and - - -
PN2658
THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, we will have a brief adjournment of 15 minutes.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.13am]
RESUMED [11.37am]
PN2659
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Friend.
PN2660
PN2661
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Friend.
PN2662
MR FRIEND: State your full name, please?---Andrew Henery McDonell.
PN2663
And you live at 3 Best St in Reservoir?---That is correct.
PN2664
Yes. And have you prepared a witness statement in this matter of some 11 pages?---Yes.
PN2665
And have you had an opportunity to read that recently?---Yes.
PN2666
And is that statement true and correct?---Yes.
PN2667
PN2668
MR FRIEND: Now, Mr McDonell, what is your current occupation?---I am the director of Paramedic Sciences at Victoria University.
PN2669
And is that a separate department in the university or - - -?---No, it is an academic unit of the School of Health Sciences.
PN2670
And how many staff do you have under you in that position?---12 full time staff.
**** ANDREW HENERY McDONELL XN MR FRIEND
PN2671
And how long have you held that position?---Since 1998.
PN2672
Yes. Now, does that unit conduct training courses for ambulance officers, ambulance attendants and patient transport officers?---It conducts programs for ambulance paramedics and the other remainders, but not ambulance officers.
PN2673
Right. Is that a degree course for ambulance paramedics?---Teeheed is correct.
PN2674
How long has it been a degree course?---Since 1999.
PN2675
That is a three years Bachelor's Degree, is it?---Teeheed is correct.
PN2676
Now - so the first students will be coming through at the end of this year?---Teeheed is correct.
PN2677
Yes. Now, is that - does the department also conduct courses for ambulance attendants or is there some way of qualifying as an ambulance attendant in your courses?---The - the Paramedic Sciences conducts a diploma program for ambulance transport attendants.
PN2678
Yes?---And there is another way to become an ambulance attendant, and that is to actually exit the degree program after the first year of full time study.
PN2679
Now, is that qualification - if you exit after the first year, does that fit in - has that been measured against the Australian Qualifications Framework?---The diploma or the exit point is - is a level 5 against the national framework, or the AQF.
**** ANDREW HENERY McDONELL XN MR FRIEND
PN2680
Yes. And what about patient transport officers, is there any way of qualifying for that?---Yes. again there is two ways of qualifying. One is doing direct academic studies to, presently, a certificate 2 level but that is being changed at the moment to a certificate 4 level; or exiting the first two subjects of the Bachelor of Health Science Program.
PN2681
The Bachelor of Health Science Program is the Ambulance Paramedics Course?---Teeheed is correct.
PN2682
Yes. All right. Now you yourself have obtained the Associate Diploma of Health Science as an ambulance officer in 1990?---Yes, that is true.
PN2683
Can you describe the difference, if any, between that qualification in 1990 and the qualification that is now obtained at your university by an ambulance paramedic?---There is considerable difference. One is the qualification in itself being a batchelor degree.
PN2684
Yes?---The second component is that it is - it is a full health science program which is now conducted whereas the associate diploma that I did was more on an apprenticeship model and was more of a part time program over three years - than a full time program.
PN2685
Yes?---The content is - well, there is - virtually no similarities between the bachelor degree and the associate diploma.
PN2686
Yes. If someone were to exit your course at the end of the first year, or do the diploma course to become an ambulance attendant?---Yes.
PN2687
- - - how would you compare or line that up against the Ambulance Officers Associate Diploma that you did in 1990?---Well, there is actually more academic vigour in the one year diploma program than the associate diploma. I mean, the science component of the diploma program which is presently run just outstrips the associate diploma of when there was virtually no science component. So they are a bit like chalk and cheese.
**** ANDREW HENERY McDONELL XN MR FRIEND
PN2688
Yes?---Would a person who has done your ambulance attendants qualification have a similar sort of qualification, or higher or lower qualification, than the Ambulance Officers Associate Diploma in terms of ability to do the job of an ambulance officer?---What - what I would equate to is in terms of qualification the new diploma on the framework is actually at a higher standard than the old associate diploma.
PN2689
Yes?---In terms of doing - doing the job, I would equate that both practitioners would be able to do the job.
PN2690
Yes. All right. Now, I want to ask you about changes in - - -
PN2691
THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, if I might just interrupt, when you say "do the job" - what do you mean by that?---My understanding of the - the attendant's job in the private ambulance sector.
PN2692
Thank you.
PN2693
MR FRIEND: Could the witness be shown exhibit F11, which is the reply outline of submissions? It would be a more convenient way of doing this, Commissioner, than for me to read them out.
PN2694
Could you just turn to page 4, please. You will see there a list of developments starting on the third line. Now it is said there that some of these developments - or these developments occurred after 1990. I want you to think back to your training and the changes in procedures and the protocols and treatments available to ambulance officers which they were trained for. And I want you to tell me, in respect of each of these, whether to your knowledge they were introduced before or after 1989. Firstly, the Salbutamol?---I believe that was introduced before 1989.
**** ANDREW HENERY McDONELL XN MR FRIEND
PN2695
Yes. Narcan?---After 1989.
PN2696
Aspirin?---After 1989.
PN2697
Glucagon?---Glucagon - after 1989.
PN2698
Sorry. Anginine?---After 1989.
PN2699
PR Valium?---After 1989.
PN2700
Glucose paste?---After 1989.
PN2701
The next one?---Intra Muscular Midezolam - after 1989.
PN2702
Adrenaline?---After 1989.
PN2703
Glucometers?---After 1989.
PN2704
And the Nasopharyngeal airway device?---Yes. After 1989.
PN2705
And Oxysaver for pulmonary oedema?---Again, after 1989.
PN2706
Yes. Thank you. If you could wait there, please, Mr McDonell.
PN2707
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Quigley, your witness.
**** ANDREW HENERY McDONELL XN MR FRIEND
PN2708
PN2709
MR QUIGLEY: Just in relation to the courses that you conduct at Victoria University, are those courses that students can enter straight from leaving school?---Yes, they are.
PN2710
And how is that one goes about being selected for that course? Is there a ENTER score requirement or is there some other basis of selection?---For the bachelor degree requirement, the university has specific requirements and the ENTER - there is an ENTER requirement to enter the bachelor degree. To enter the certificate 2 program, which we presently run for patient transport attendants, what we do is we look at life experience. There is a different criteria to enter that. In terms of the diploma program, what we have done is we have placed the same entry requirement as the bachelor degree.
PN2711
What is the ENTER cut off for the bachelor degree?---The mean - the mean ENTER is - actually the ENTER is quite complicated but the mean ENTER is 84 at the moment.
PN2712
According to the university's web site, the courses that are available in your department are fully accredited with members of the paramedic profession and industry organisations. And the site quotes that that is including the Ambulance Service Victoria, Ambulance Employees of Australia and the Institute of Ambulance Officers, Australia. Does that - would you agree with that?---Teeheed is correct.
PN2713
Yes. There is no reference in that to the involvement of the private sector non-emergency patient transport proprietors. Are they involved in - to the same extent as those previous bodies I have referred to?---Yes.
**** ANDREW HENERY McDONELL XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2714
In what way?---There is a university - what we call a professional focus group, which is equivalent to a board of study. They have representatives and - pardon me but my memory is not working here with the exact name - from - which I think it is called the Private Transport Association. And members - we also have private transport separate meetings.
PN2715
And do you conduct those or does somebody from your department conduct those?---I conduct those.
PN2716
Yes. And which - which private sector organisations do you deal with in terms of getting your information about the requirements of those employers?---Do you want me to name the companies?
PN2717
Yes?---There is Ambikab Patient - you will have to excuse me all, but Wilson's Transport I think is their new name. I can't recall all their exact names. There is the Wilson's - sorry, there is - I think in terms of the people when I - - -
PN2718
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, you can name the people if you want.
PN2719
MR QUIGLEY: The people's - - -?---Well, John Brown. There is the group who work on the Peninsula. There is Advanced Medical Concepts who are at Ballarat and Shepparton and Bendigo. I think that is the - there is Medical Logistics, also. And I think that is the major group from memory - from memory. There may be other people.
PN2720
So it is your evidence that you, or your department - at least - and yourself has involvement with the private sector operators as to the requirements that they have for people undertaking studies at your university?---We have consultation with them but we are also locked into the national competencies.
PN2721
Yes. And you would agree with me, wouldn't you that Patient Transit Care - the company based at Seaford - provides opportunities for your students to receive training in the operations?---Yes.
**** ANDREW HENERY McDONELL XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2722
Now you have indicated that, at paragraph 11 of your statement, that the university in consultation with Ambulance Services and the Victoria Department of Human Services have determined that the base level qualification for an ambulance officer paramedic is an undergraduate bachelor degree awarded by a university. Can you tell the Commission what has changed in the non-emergency patient transport sector to warrant changing those training requirements?---I am sorry, can you rephrase that?
PN2723
Yes. Have you got paragraph - - -?---Yes.
PN2724
You can see paragraph 11 of your statement?---Yes. It is in front of me.
PN2725
Yes. And you say there that the university, in conjunction with those other bodies - the Ambulance Services and the Victorian Department of Human Services - have determined that the base level qualification for an ambulance officer/paramedic is an undergraduate bachelor degree awarded by a university?---Yes.
PN2726
Now, I will rephrase my original question, but has that determination - does that have any relation to job requirements or training requirements in the non-emergency sector?---The ambulance paramedic level, no. Though, can I just clarify something. The term "ambulance officer/paramedic" which is written there really applies directly to ambulance paramedic. That is perhaps an error of mine putting ambulance officer there.
PN2727
And so what, you are not referring to ambulance officer at all? Is that - as that term is generally known?---I suppose the difficulty is that the ambulance - the term ambulance officer has been superseded and there was a - a period where ambulance officers have been converted to ambulance paramedics within the emergency sector.
**** ANDREW HENERY McDONELL XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2728
Now, you have referred in paragraph 10 of your statement to an upgrading of university awards at the patient transport officer and ambulance attendant level. Can you be more specific about what you mean by that?---Yes. The patient transport officer originally was a certificate 2 level. Under the new competencies it is a minimum of a certificate 3 level. So it has actually moved up an academic component. The ambulance attendant area, we presently conduct a Diploma of Health Science. We are required to adjust that now to a Diploma in Paramedical Science (Ambulance), which has some increased competencies which we never formally included in the old diploma.
PN2729
And have the developments in these courses been brought about by identified needs in the non-emergency patient transport area?---In terms of the national competencies, I don't know.
PN2730
So you don't know whether or not the employers and the industry are saying, "Look, we need people with different training," or whether it is universities out to justify their existence by creating new training programs to keep academics in a job?---Absolutely not. The - the university is required to deliver the National Ambulance Competencies. We - we don't have a choice in that. That is a - a federal - federal requirement. Also a federal requirement for funding for us. So the national competencies are agreed up by the industries, by the ambulance industry. And we deliver what is given to us by DEET in the form of the national competencies.
PN2731
The extent to which those national competencies are developed, you - I think you have indicated that that is not something that you are involved with?---No.
PN2732
And it would be unreasonable of me to ask you, in those circumstances, if you know how they are arrived at, I think?---I have an idea of how they are arrived at but the exact process, I don't know.
PN2733
In relation to the certificate level change in relation to patient transport officers, does that - has that commenced?---It is going through its final accreditation presently. We hope to commence it by the end of the year.
**** ANDREW HENERY McDONELL XXN MR QUIGLEY
PN2734
And who does that accreditation?---Well, there is an internal university accreditation. They are - they ensure that we are going to deliver the national competencies. Then the university purchases packages from the Victorian Qualifications Authority.
PN2735
Are you familiar with the award classification of student level 2?---No, not really.
PN2736
Are you familiar with the duties of an ambulance officer in the non-emergency patient transport sector?---No.
PN2737
Are you aware of the classification with in the Rural Ambulance Victoria of ambulance community officer?---Yes.
PN2738
Are you aware of the sorts of duties that are involved with that role?---No. I have an idea but I don't know all the duties.
PN2739
I have no other questions of the witness, Commissioner.
PN2740
PN2741
MR FRIEND: You said you had an idea about how the national competencies were arrived at. Is this just guessing or is it something that you know from having examined the documents?---I - I understand the procedure of how they are - - -
**** ANDREW HENERY McDONELL RXN MR FRIEND
PN2742
Could you explain the procedure, please?---Well, my understanding of the procedure is that - that the Department of Education Employment and Training in Youth Affairs, which has recently just changed its name, organises through a - a consultant to consult with employers and unions to determine what a job is. And from what a job is they determine what competencies are required for that job.
PN2743
THE COMMISSIONER: Is it the department which does that, or ANTA?---No, it is done through - my understanding is that it is done through DEETYA. They get the consultant. It is then approved through ANTA.
PN2744
MR FRIEND: Thank you, Mr McDonell.
PN2745
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr McDonell, you are excused. I must direct that you don't discuss your evidence with anyone who is yet to give evidence, or the evidence that they might give in this matter. But obviously you can talk about anything else that you need to. Thank you.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.00pm]
[12noon]
PN2746
MR FRIEND: Commissioner, that is the balance of our witness evidence. There might be one or two documents that we are still trying to chase down but I don't think so. That is our case, so I can sit down.
PN2747
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Quigley.
PN2748
MR QUIGLEY: Sir, we would be proposing to open after lunch if that suits the Commission. Mr Dawson, one of our witnesses, is available at 2 o'clock and Mr Brown, who is our other witness, is unavailable today but he is available tomorrow and we would propose that we would utilise that time that you have set for tomorrow afternoon for Mr Brown. And we would be confident that would be able to be done in the times that have been set down. That would then mean that the parties have then got to sort out the question of the inspections that we would wish to take the Commission to. But if it is convenient with the Commission we could open our case at 2 o'clock or thereabouts.
PN2749
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, we will adjourn until 2.15. Before we do that, just in relation to the inspections I would welcome early advice in relation to that simply - by that I mean, if possible, two days before the 15th. That might be a Sunday but anyway as soon as possible. For the reasons that I disclosed privately I am not able or allowed to drive a vehicle at present so I have to make arrangements in that regard. We will adjourn to 2.15.
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.02pm]
RESUMED [2.25pm]
PN2750
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Quigley.
PN2751
MR QUIGLEY: Thank you, Commissioner. It is our opportunity to open our case and as the Commission will be aware the company we represent has put in three lots of submissions to date, originally on 24 June this year, out of which the Commission has made some determination, 23 August this year and 20 September. None of those matters is - none of those submissions is marked as yet, Commissioner.
PN2752
THE COMMISSIONER: My associate is just getting the first one for me I think. I have got 23 August and 20 September but not the - - -
PN2753
MR QUIGLEY: I think the 24 June one may in fact have been marked in the other proceedings, the original award simplification proceedings.
PN2754
PN2755
MR QUIGLEY: Thank you, Commissioner. Sir, these proceedings concern the establishment of an award which provides an effective safety net of fair and enforceable minimum wages and conditions of employment for ambulance employees in Victoria. It is our submission that the interim order made by Senior Deputy President Riordan back in 1994 is an interim award made in accordance with the established processes of the Commission whereby an interim award is made in special circumstances on the understanding that there would be a full investigation of relevant circumstances in relation to a first award proper.
PN2756
We have dealt with this issue in our submission of 23 August and the other point we make in relation to that is that at the time he made the 1994 interim order Senior Deputy President Riordan made it plain that he was concerned by the situation of the government ambulance employees at the time. As the Commission will be aware there was a time - it was at around that time that there was a so-called flight to the federal system and the ambulance employees in Victoria were part of that immigration, if you like.
PN2757
We argue that the interim order - or interim award cannot have been operating as a minimum rates award because of the existence within the award of SIPS, the old State Incremental Payment Scheme. We have already put submissions to the Commission in our submission of 23 August in relation to that point and we have put in there a history of SIPS which shows in our view that this Commission has always regarded SIPS as an over award payment.
PN2758
We refer in a number - in quite a number of decisions there, including a decision of Commissioner O'Shea, where the Commission clearly identifies that the relevant payment is a SIPS payment and we refer to other decisions of the Commission which indicate that SIPS is an over award payment. We have also made reference to decisions of the Commission which indicate that an award containing an over award payment would prevent that award being regarded as a minimum rates award.
PN2759
We presented submissions of the rates of pay set out in clause 102 - that is the SIPS payment - increment payments, and increment payments are not allowable under section 89A of the Workplace Relations Act. And in support of that submission we have referred the Commission to decisions of the Commission, including a decision of Commissioner Larkins, the paid rates review decision and the National Wage Case February 1989 review decision.
PN2760
As I indicated, it is our submission that the interim award - or interim order made by Senior Deputy President Riordan is not a first award proper and in that regard we have referred the Commission to key decisions of this tribunal in this regard, and in particular the decision of the Full Bench in the Marconi case, which dealt in turn with the history of the treatment of first awards by the Commission over many, many years.
PN2761
In that regard we submit that the main consideration that the Commission is obliged to have consideration to when making a first award proper, is that the award meets the particular - meets the needs, sorry, of the particular industry or enterprise, whilst ensuring that employees' interests are also properly taken into account and that structural efficiency considerations apply. They are the obligations that are placed on the Commission in these circumstances. Now, the particular industry in this case from our point of view is the private sector non-emergency transport industry, not the public sector emergency ambulance industry.
PN2762
There are no awards of the Commission that deal with this particular industry and the Commission is, therefore, entitled to forsake the contents and conditions of an interim award, result of and origins are not known. We heard in evidence that the National Secretary of the union himself is not able to pinpoint the origins of a number of the award conditions, or at least one of them. We argue that when Senior Deputy President Riordan made the 1994 interim award, it is not apparent in the decision that his Honour made that any consideration at all was given to the private non-emergency patient transport sector of the ambulance industry in Victoria.
PN2763
There is not one reference within his Honour's decision to that part of the industry.
PN2764
THE COMMISSIONER: But weren't they - a number of companies made respondents to the award by Senior Deputy President Riordan?
PN2765
MR QUIGLEY: Yes, they were, Commissioner, but all of his Honour's comments about the need to make the award refer to the government sector employees, because - and this is an important point - those private sector employers who are party to the application that we make weren't covered by that award, the old Victorian state award because they weren't in that industry. It was the making of the interim award by Senior Deputy President Riordan, together with the privatisation of the non-emergency patient transport sector of the ambulance services, that established that industry, if you like.
PN2766
Now, when we say that it is not apparent from his decision that Senior Deputy President Riordan gave any consideration to the private non-emergency patient transport sector, we say now is the proper time to deal with these matters as the Commission is making a first award proper. And we have referred to decisions of this Commission where it highlighted concerns that where public sector standards do exist that they do not flow to the private sector. And that is the very case that is sought to happen here.
PN2767
In the making of a first award the union's position is the old public sector award provision because that is what it was. For all of the time that the award existed in Victoria it applied only to government-run ambulance services. We have also presented submissions that there is a Commission standard of long service leave of 13 weeks after 15 years which a single Commissioner would not be able to move away from and as the Commission, as currently constituted would be well aware, a single member of the Commission is bound to follow decisions of the Full Bench. It is an established principle. We presented material which shows that there is a distinction - - -
PN2768
THE COMMISSIONER: Are you suggesting that matter ought to be referred to the President for a hearing by a Full Bench?
PN2769
MR QUIGLEY: No. No, what I am saying, Commissioner, is that the High Court in the Phonogram Operators case determined that a single Commissioner is bound to follow principles established by a Full Bench and we put in our submission that decisions of the Full Benches of this Commission have determined that long service leave standard of this Commission is 13 weeks after 15 years and we say you can't make an award that has those conditions in it. It is a simple as that.
PN2770
The unions could seek to have the matter determined by a Full Bench but there has been no application in that regard and what we say is you are bound by that High Court decision and those Full Bench decisions that have been made that we have referred to in our submissions. We have also presented material that shows there is a distinction enabled to be drawn between emergency and non-emergency work and we submit that that is a critical aspect of this case and in fact we believe that it is so important, Commissioner, that I would like to foreshadow that we will need to bring some additional evidence in respect of that.
PN2771
The evidence that the Commission has heard over the last few days has been that employees in the non-emergency patient transport sector are engaged in what they say is emergency work. Mr Morris from the union indicated that it is not possible or it is not easy to distinguish between what is emergency and not emergency or serious or other forms of distinction and we felt it might be helped if we summonses as a witness somebody from the government agency responsible for monitoring these activities to provide assistance to the Commission in that respect.
PN2772
We believe that the Commission would be much assisted by having available, from our point of view, what would be impartial and statistical information that could speak for itself and a witness who would be able to be examined by the parties in that regard and by the Commission of course. That would be a matter of availability as to when we could do that and within the time limits that the Commission has allowed but we believe that it is an important issue.
PN2773
The Commissioner himself may have a view on that but that - I just foreshadow that that is what we would be proposing to do and that is something that has come to - the necessity for it has come to light as a result of the manner in which these proceedings are played out. We believe it would help the Commission and it would not and it is certainly not designed to delay or hinder the processes, in fact quite the contrary, and that is a matter that we will be getting onto as soon as possible after these proceedings are finished today.
PN2774
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Friend, do you want to address me?
PN2775
MR FRIEND: Well, I was going to wait til Mr Quigley had finished his opening but I have some concerns about the way this matter has arisen. My witnesses are finished. My case is finished. Things haven't been put to them.
PN2776
THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.
PN2777
MR FRIEND: When he makes a formal application, I will certainly have something to say.
PN2778
MR QUIGLEY: Well, it is not correct, Commissioner, that things haven't been put to them. Each of the witnesses has had these questions put to them. Each of them and the very point that I - - -
PN2779
MR FRIEND: Well, not the evidence of the witness you are going to call.
PN2780
MR QUIGLEY: And it is apparent that much of the evidence is anecdotal, general and it would be helpful, as we say, to have that able to be tested so the Commission on the one hand having seen the witnesses give oral evidence as to what they say they do, we believe that it is possible to weigh that up against what we would call hard evidence, statistical evidence, the facts and that is where we put it.
PN2781
MR FRIEND: Well, it is an ambush because he doesn't like - Mr Quigley doesn't like the evidence that has come from our witnesses and now he says we wants to put in a whole lot of different evidence that we have had no time to look at. The time to deal with this was when reply statements and reply submissions were put in. We have had none of that. Some things have been put to our witnesses, they have responded. He now wants to put in different evidence which clearly hasn't been put to our witnesses and we don't get an opportunity to deal with it appropriately.
PN2782
The case can't keep on expanding. There has got to be a line drawn somewhere and in my submission, us having - the union having closed its case the employer ought to put the case that we met and not start another new case so that we get off into the Never Never with this case. We will never finish the simplification if it goes on like this.
PN2783
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Quigley.
PN2784
MR QUIGLEY: Well, Commissioner, at the risk of raising an issue that I raised yesterday, if the government agency hadn't been frightened off by making their submissions in this case, we probably wouldn't be here arguing this particular point and we will need to press that point of the available evidence from MAS and Mr Friend knows that it has been put to each of these employees. It has been put to them from our point of view what our view is about the amount of emergency work. It is clear from the union evidence all the way up the National Secretary that there are different views on what is non-emergency work and what is emergency work.
PN2785
What are the degrees between all of that? And that is why we put this and we put it, as I say, for the assistance of the Commission in coming to a fair determination of this issue. We have made references in our submissions to a discussion paper that was being put out by the government and I have got copies of that to tender to the Commission today but the - if it is that we summonses somebody from MAS and that summonses is - and the witness whom we wish to summonses is somehow or rather not able to appear well we will cop that but we put the basis upon which that would done or sought to be done.
PN2786
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I will rule on it later but obviously what sticks in my mind is the ruling, Browne v Dunn I think it is, and the fact that if one assumes that you do seek a summonses and it is issued the need to in fact re-examine a number of witnesses who have already given evidence but we will deal with that later.
PN2787
MR QUIGLEY: It is an integral part of our submission, Commissioner, that it is inappropriate that terms and conditions of employment that have been developed for an ambulance service, a public sector ambulance service that embraces emergency work, should apply to a patient transport service that provides non-emergency services and which operate in the private sector. We submit that the Paid Rates Review Full Bench, determined in the Paid Rates Review decision, that the Commission determined at item 51(4) of the WROLA Act concluded that:
PN2788
An award whose wage rates operated as minimum rates of pay would be one which contained properly fixed minimum rates of pay.
PN2789
We argue therefore that the Commission is obliged, as far as possible, to convert the wage rates in that award affected by item 51(4) to properly fixed minimum rates bearing a proper relationship to properly fixed minimi in other minimum rates awards and in the absence of a classification of ambulance attendant or patient transport officer in the award to date the position of ambulance officer has been identified as the key classification for the purposes of adjustment of allowances in the award, in this particular award, in respect of safety net adjustments.
PN2790
It is our submission that the qualifications and duties for this classification suggest that it is above what would normally be identified as the award equivalent of the C10 or a trade level classification in the metal industry. It follows from this that the classification of ambulance officer is therefore inappropriate to be the key classification for the purposes of a minimum rates adjustment in line with the requirements of the Act and the Commission's minimum rates adjustment principle.
PN2791
It is our submission that an ambulance attendant is properly classified at the C10 level and it is our submission that the PTO is properly classified at C12. The thrust of our application is a separate part of the award which provides appropriate safety net provisions to the private sector non-emergency patient transport area. We argue that this is the first opportunity that private sector operators have had to be involved in the development of the minimum terms and conditions of employment in an award proper for their employees and each of the clauses - - -
PN2792
THE COMMISSIONER: What do mean by it is the first opportunity, Mr Quigley?
PN2793
MR QUIGLEY: I meant it is the first opportunity because the - up until now the only award that has been in existence has been the interim order made by Senior Deputy President Riordan and that is not a first award.
PN2794
THE COMMISSIONER: But you are not saying the employers haven't had an opportunity to make an application for a separate award before this?
PN2795
MR QUIGLEY: No.
PN2796
THE COMMISSIONER: No.
PN2797
MR QUIGLEY: And we argue that in respect of the clauses that we have proposed for that separate part of the award that each of those clauses has the approval of the Commission in the sense that they are drawn from awards made by the Commission and would, in that case, fall within the definition, we submit, of an effective safety net, a fair and enforceable minimum wages and conditions of employment which is the requirement that the Act places on the Commission in respect of making of awards.
PN2798
Commissioner, that is the case that we are making and it might be appropriate at this time - I am going to call Mr Douglas Dawson as a witness but before I do that I would like to tender some documents relating to some matters that are relevant to our application, if I could do that?
PN2799
THE COMMISSIONER: Certainly.
PN2800
MR QUIGLEY: The first one, Commissioner, is - and I had hoped to bring this in by way of some of the evidence by the answers that were given didn't allow that and what I want to do is to provide the Commission with just copies of the relevant ambulance awards that apply elsewhere in Australia. As you would be aware, the National Secretary of the union wasn't aware of what the conditions were in the other States and it is important, we argue, that this Commission, in these proceedings have an understanding of that.
PN2801
They are a mixture and I have - we refer to them in our submission of 23 August in the chapter where we describe the ambulance services in each of the States and the types of awards that regulate the employment of ambulance staff in those States and I think it is an appropriate time now to provide the Commission with those. The first one is the award that applies in Tasmania.
PN2802
PN2803
MR QUIGLEY: In relation to Queensland, Commissioner, there was an interim award made by Senior Deputy President Riordan but that was stayed on appeal and there was an agreement reached just recently between the union and the ambulance service that the Queensland State award could apply. I would next like to provide the award that applies in the Northern Territory.
PN2804
PN2805
PN2806
PN2807
PN2808
MR QUIGLEY: And in conjunction with the ACT award, Commissioner, there is a related award, the Employment Conditions (Australian Capital Territory) Public Sector Award with which it must be read so I think it is important that I tender that as well.
PN2809
THE COMMISSIONER: Is that the simplified award made by Commissioner Deegan?
PN2810
PN2811
PN2812
MR QUIGLEY: Could you state for the Commission your full name?---Douglas Leslie Dawson.
PN2813
And is your work address at Block 2, 2 Cumberland Drive, Seaford, Victoria?---Yes.
PN2814
Did you make a statement in relation to these proceedings, Mr Dawson?---I did.
PN2815
And have you got a copy of that statement with you?---I have.
PN2816
Is that statement you made true and correct?---Yes.
PN2817
Are there any changes that you have made to that statement?---No.
PN2818
Are there any changes that you wish to make to that statement?---No.
PN2819
THE COMMISSIONER: Do you wish to tender it?
PN2820
PN2821
MR QUIGLEY: Mr Dawson, are you the Managing Director of a company called Patient Transit Care?---Yes, I am.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XN MR QUIGLEY
PN2822
And do you operate a non-emergency patient transport business?---That is correct.
PN2823
And the qualifications you have set out in your statement enable you to work as an ambulance officer in that role?---Yes, it does.
PN2824
You have stated in your statement, Mr Dawson, that the non-emergency patient transport sector is significantly different from the government administered sector and you have indicated a number of reasons. Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN2825
You indicate that, under the Mental Health Act, ambulance officers are prescribed persons enabling them to transport recommended psychiatric patients, whereas the non-emergency patient transport employees are not prescribed persons, do you see that?---That is right, yes.
PN2826
Are you aware of a discussion paper that has been produced by the Department of Human Services headed "Ambulance Transport of People with a Mental Illness"?---Yes, I am.
PN2827
PN2828
MR QUIGLEY: Can I take you to page 12 of this document, Mr Dawson. Are you familiar generally with the provisions of the Mental Health Act 1986?---Yes.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XN MR QUIGLEY
PN2829
And is it your understanding that non-emergency contractors - - -
PN2830
MR FRIEND: This question seems to be putting the answer to the witness - if the witness is giving evidence he should perhaps be asked in a non-leading way.
PN2831
MR QUIGLEY: Yes, I apologise, Commissioner. Mr Dawson, are you aware of any directions from the Metropolitan Ambulance Service in relation to the transport of psychiatric patients?---Yes, there is a document out that states that non-emergency contractors are not to transport sedated and restrained patients.
PN2832
And do you believe that - - - ?---Which are recommended, sorry. Recommended patients.
PN2833
That is a recommendation?---Recommended, which is the same as certified.
PN2834
We tender exhibit P12, Commissioner, because it does set out the arrangements that the relevant government department in Victoria has identified as a protocol, which they say would be a useful resource for interaction between ambulance services and clinicians working in public mental health services, and we commend it to the Commission as an opportunity to understand just what that protocol refers to. The Commission has received a considerable amount of evidence already about the type of psychiatric patients that are transported and we put that forward on that basis.
PN2835
THE COMMISSIONER: I noticed that on page 12 the section that you were taking the witness to, and obviously I haven't read all of this, refers to the admission and attention of involuntary patients.
PN2836
MR QUIGLEY: Yes.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XN MR QUIGLEY
PN2837
THE COMMISSIONER: Now, I assume there is a protocol which deals with voluntary patients?
PN2838
MR QUIGLEY: The protocol discusses people with mental illness generally, Commissioner, whether they be voluntary or involuntary. Is it your evidence - sorry, I will start again. Does your company transport any psychiatric patients, Mr Dawson?---It does - involuntary, patients, yes.
PN2839
THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, it does?---Involuntary - sorry, voluntary patients. It does, yes.
PN2840
MR QUIGLEY: You say at paragraph 4 in your statement, Mr Dawson, that the working environment and decision-making transporting mostly routine medically stable patients for which non-emergency patient transport workers is exposed, is significantly less demanding than that of the emergency ambulance officer. Have any of your employees made comments to you that that view of yours is shared by them?---Yes.
PN2841
What comments have been made to you in that regard?---Well, both present day employees - - -
PN2842
MR FRIEND: I don't know how much hearsay we can go into in relation to this. I mean it is open to call the evidence, but this is a pretty big issue in this case and it seems that the employer is coming along to say what the employees think of the nature of the job. The employees could have been called. It is hearsay. Perhaps it is a matter that goes to weight, but as a matter of formality I put the objection.
PN2843
THE COMMISSIONER: It will receive the weight it deserves. Please proceed.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XN MR QUIGLEY
PN2844
MR QUIGLEY: What is your answer to the question, Mr Dawson?---Well, both full time employees who have been employed in the ambulance service state that it is less stressful job and even casuals that are still employed with the ambulance service say the same thing.
PN2845
Does MAS operate a car division, Mr Dawson?---Yes, it does.
PN2846
Does that car division sometimes utilise taxis for transporting patients?---Yes, they do.
PN2847
Are you aware if the drivers of those taxis are qualified in any regard in relation to transporting of patients?---I am not aware of any qualifications - apart from being a taxi driver and what the qualifications for that are, I am not too sure.
PN2848
Are you aware if MAS employs any PTOs?---They don't currently, but I believe they will be shortly.
PN2849
I have no other questions of the witness at this stage, Commissioner.
PN2850
PN2851
MR FRIEND: Thank you, Commissioner. Mr Dawson, you have got your occupation down as Managing Director?---Mm.
PN2852
You are the Managing Director of the Patient Transport Care, is that right?---That is correct.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN2853
And you have done that since 1993?---Correct, or '94 - '93, yes.
PN2854
Around about then. All right. At that time - prior to that time you had been in the Peninsula Ambulance Service, correct?---Correct.
PN2855
And you were an ambulance officer?---Correct.
PN2856
Yes. You have got listed there in your statement, Paramedic. People weren't paramedics then were they?---No, they weren't, no.
PN2857
And in fact if you wanted to go back and work for MAS or the Peninsula Ambulance Service you wouldn't be able to do so with your current qualification?---That is correct.
PN2858
You would have to do some more training?---Correct.
PN2859
Yes. While you were working with MAS or Peninsula Ambulance Service, did you do CEP training?---Yes, I did.
PN2860
And did you - bear with me just a moment - you learned how to use Salbutamol?---Correct.
PN2861
What about Anginine?---Yes.
PN2862
Were you trained in that?---Correct.
PN2863
PR Valium?---No.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN2864
Glucose paste?---No.
PN2865
For diabetes?---No.
PN2866
Intramuscular - - - ?---No.
PN2867
Adrenalin?---No.
PN2868
Glucometers?---No.
PN2869
Narcan?---No.
PN2870
Aspirin?---Yes.
PN2871
I have got the pronunciation wrong before and I will do it again - glucarcon?---No.
PN2872
Glucarcon?---No.
PN2873
No, Okay.
PN2874
THE COMMISSIONER: You got it right the second time.
PN2875
MR FRIEND: The second time. Probably by the end of the case I will have it right and I will never use it again. All right.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN2876
THE COMMISSIONER: I know the feeling, Mr Friend.
PN2877
MR FRIEND: Now, but the types of training that you had at that stage - I take it you do some transport work at the moment?---Myself, personally?
PN2878
Yes, yes?---Yes, I do.
PN2879
Fitted you to do the transport work that you do now?---Pardon?
PN2880
The type of training that you had?---Yes.
PN2881
And your experience with the Peninsula Ambulance Service fitted you to do the type of transport work that you do now?---Yes.
PN2882
And you have qualified to do that as a result of those qualifications?---Yes.
PN2883
Yes. Now, how many employees does your company have?---It is around sixty.
PN2884
Sixty?---Sixty or seventy, yes.
PN2885
You are bound by the award?---Yes.
PN2886
And you have been since the day it came into force?---Apparently so.
PN2887
Apparently so, all right. When did you find out?---I can't recall.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN2888
But you have known for some time?---Yes, yes.
PN2889
And your employees - you don't have a certified agreement with your employees?---No, we don't. No, no.
PN2890
Your employees aren't employed on Australian Workplace Agreements?---No.
PN2891
They are employed on ordinary contracts?---Yes.
PN2892
You make them an offer and they accept it?---Yes.
PN2893
That is it. What rate - what hourly rate do you play an ambulance officer?---I am unsure what that is at the moment.
PN2894
You don't know?---No, I don't.
PN2895
Do you know what hourly rate you pay an ambulance attendant?---No, I don't.
PN2896
The same as an ambulance officer?---We have various agreements. Some do get the same, some maybe not, I am not sure.
PN2897
So it is like - it is whatever arrangement you come to with the employee when you employ them?---Correct.
PN2898
Yes. Okay. Your people do shift work?---Some of them do. I would like them all to, but unfortunately a lot of them won't.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN2899
Not all of them want to. Yes, all right. And what is it - seven day week?---Yes, it is.
PN2900
Now you have got sixty or seventy people. What - do you have a control room, or a depot or something?---We have a couple of depots.
PN2901
A couple of depots?---And a small control room, yes.
PN2902
And the ambulances that you use, how many of them do you operate?---About 13 or 14.
PN2903
And each of them would have two people on it at any given time?---Yes.
PN2904
Either an ambulance officer or ambulance attendant - two of them, or an ambulance officer/ambulance attendant and a PTO?---Yes.
PN2905
Or two PTOs sometimes?---Yes.
PN2906
And that would depend on the nature of the job?---Correct.
PN2907
Some of the jobs you get booked privately, is that right?---Yes.
PN2908
And some come through Intergraph?---When you say come through Intergraph, we have got a contract with MAS and MAS vehicles are operated under MAS. They control them through Intergraph.
PN2909
I see. So your people are the MAS vehicles?---Yes.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN2910
Yes, employed by you and paid by you?---Yes.
PN2911
Controlled by MAS who send them to do whatever jobs they do?---Yes.
PN2912
Now, what sort of work are they sent on?---Routine, non-emergency.
PN2913
Non-emergency patient transport?---Correct.
PN2914
Some of that work, we have heard evidence, not from any of your employees, but tell me if it is different for you - might be going to pick someone up and take them to the Accident and Emergency?---Correct.
PN2915
At the hospital?---Correct.
PN2916
And that might be what might be called an urgent job, rather than one that could wait a long time?---I think they have got time frames.
PN2917
Yes?---MAS - I mean I am not au fait with what - what everything goes on with Intergraph, but I think anything has to be done within the hour that is not done by us, on the non-emergency side.
PN2918
In your company - you don't know about other companies, because we have had some evidence?---For MAS?
PN2919
Yes?---That operate with MAS?
PN2920
Yes?---No, it is a standard thing.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN2921
Well, we have had some evidence that other people are told that this is a - take some of the Accident and Emergency quickly rather than slowly within the hour?---Are you talking ab out within MAS - are you talking about?
PN2922
No, I am talking about private operators?---Yes.
PN2923
It doesn't have to be you?---Yes, that could happen with us.
PN2924
Yes, it does. All right. And when you get there - you do that sort of work - - - ?---It could be for an urgent x-ray and that happens.
PN2925
Or it could be someone with a broken leg?---Yes, it could be.
PN2926
Or with some stable chest pain?---Yes.
PN2927
Do you do that sort of work yourself personally?---I do.
PN2928
And when you get to that sort of job you would have to assess the patient?---Well, yes and no. I mean we are usually transporting these patients from a hospital to another hospital so they have already been assessed. I mean you get a hand-over from a nurse.
PN2929
Right?---As far as their clinical condition.
PN2930
All right, if you don't get a hand-over from a nurse, do you have to assess them?---No. What, in the hospital situation?
PN2931
No. If you are picking them up from home?---I don't pick them up from home.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN2932
Okay. So you don't have that sort of work where you are asked to take them to Accident and Emergency, we are not talking about - - - ?---No. Not privately, no. MAS, as I said before - - -
PN2933
Just let me finish the question, okay?---Okay.
PN2934
It will be quicker?---Okay.
PN2935
You don't get that sort of work where you are asked to pick someone up and take them to the Accident and Emergency part of the hospital?---No.
PN2936
Okay. Now, your - the Mental Health patients that you transport. I am a bit confused by your terminology. You talked about "recommended patients"?---Yes.
PN2937
By that do you mean an involuntary patient?---Correct.
PN2938
And you say that such a person has to be transported by MAS?---That is right.
PN2939
Have you got that document that was given to you?---I have.
PN2940
P12?---Yes.
PN2941
And do you see it says, "involuntary admission to an approved Mental Health service"?---Mm.
PN2942
So that is when the person has been picked up, if you like, out in the community and then taken - then getting taken to the Mental Health service, isn't it?---Correct.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN2943
It is what we are dealing with here, yes. We are not dealing with someone who is in the Mental Health service already, being taken somewhere else?---That could be the case, too.
PN2944
But that is not what this is talking about, is it?---No.
PN2945
It is only talking about taking them after - for the purpose of becoming an involuntary patient?---I am not sure whether you are right there. The patient that is in a public hospital is not necessarily approved Mental Service and they would be transferred from there to a Mental Institution.
PN2946
That is right?---Yes.
PN2947
That is right. That is what this is dealing with. Either that or someone being taken from the community to a Mental Institution?---I am not sure.
PN2948
Well, it doesn't say every involuntary patient, does it? The heading says, "Involuntary admission to an approved Mental Health service"?---Right.
PN2949
And then it says, when you have got the documentation, a request - - - ?---Yes
PN2950
- - - and a recommendation?---Yes.
PN2951
That is why you call them "recommended patients"?---Yes.
PN2952
And that is a recommendation that they be admitted to an involuntary service?---Yes, I understand all that. I understand that.
PN2953
Then that is sufficient authority for any of the following persons to take them to the Mental Health service?---That is correct.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN2954
So it is only dealing with that first stage, isn't it?---What was in the other stages?
PN2955
Well, what I have been talking to you about is them being taken out of the Mental Health service for some treatment or something else, they are not being taken to be admitted. There are other aspects of transport of involuntary mental patients - correct?---I am not sure that it is correct. I am - - -
PN2956
Well, where does it say there that this provision covers anything but taking someone to the Mental Health service to be admitted - show me the words?---Well, it doesn't.
PN2957
No, thank you. This is the document that you have presented to show - to back up your statement that recommended patients can only be transported by MAS people, isn't it?---What I was trying to - well, I suppose in one way what I am trying to say is that the ambulance officer in a non-emergency sector cannot do that particular transfer, which only emergency sector can do.
PN2958
Yes, and it is - - - ?---- - - under the law.
PN2959
All right. Only this particular transfer?---An involuntary person, yes. That is - that is - - -
PN2960
But this doesn't cover all involuntary persons, does it?---Well, what doesn't it not cover?
PN2961
Mr Dawson, what this passage is dealing with is a person who has not yet been made an involuntary patient being taken to the Mental Health service and admitted as an involuntary patient?---Yes.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN2962
Okay?---Yes.
PN2963
Once they are in the Mental Health service they become an involuntary patient?---Mm.
PN2964
Okay. They may on some occasions need to be taken from the Mental Health service to somewhere else, do you agree with that?---I can't disagree.
PN2965
I would have thought - all right. If they are taken from the Mental Health service to somewhere else there is nothing in this document here which says it has to be done by MAS, is there?---No.
PN2966
Thank you. And what is more, this document itself doesn't just confine it to ambulance or MICA paramedics, does it - taking people to be admitted in fact?---No, it doesn't.
PN2967
No, it says:
PN2968
Any other person authorised by the person making the request.
PN2969
?---But the point I am trying to make is - - -
PN2970
Well, I just want you to agree with me that it says that there?---It does say it.
PN2971
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Dawson, I should - once Mr Friend has asked you questions Mr Quigley will have the opportunity to ask amplificatory questions that he believes necessary, okay.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN2972
MR FRIEND: That could include a non-emergency patient transport vehicle, couldn't it?---It could.
PN2973
Now, could I ask you to look at this bundle of documents. In some ways it is a bit hard to follow, Mr Dawson, because it is the form we got them in, but you will remember earlier that there was a subpoena for the production of documents?---Yes.
PN2974
And that certain pages were taken out of the contracts of agreements and produced as being relevant to the subpoena and that is why we haven't got headings on these things and they are a bit of a mixed bundle. This is some of those documents, but do you recognise the first one of those?---Yes.
PN2975
And that is from your agreement with MAS?---Yes.
PN2976
And that provides that the vehicles must be crewed by at least two personnel, providing two ambulance attendants or an ambulance attendant with an ambulance assistant?---Yes.
PN2977
Yes. And so that is the requirement that you have for the work that you do?---Mm.
PN2978
If you turn over the page there is the commencement of some correspondence between you and the Southern Health Materials Management Department and that concerns the starting process for them actually putting out a request for tender, is that right, I have made an assumption there, but - - - ?---No, it was the fact that there was a tender put out - Homecare Patient Transport was the primary tenderer - - -
PN2979
Yes?---- - - and we were secondary. So we assisted.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN2980
I see?---And they wanted to terminate that because the primary Homecare Patient Transport was out of business.
PN2981
I see. If you turn the page again there was a request for a new tender - no, that is the request for tender - the old one?---That is the old one.
PN2982
The old one - I see. And then if you turn over that page, we get part of the request for tender, clause 2.2.2 says:
PN2983
Required stretcher transport to staff, comprising a PTO as driver and either a nurse, an AO or a critical care nurse.
PN2984
?---Yes.
PN2985
You don't have nurses and critical care nurses, is that right?---No.
PN2986
Yes. And an ambulance officer is defined in 3.4.3 as:
PN2987
CEP7 training, with a minimum two yearly re-accreditation.
PN2988
?---Mm.
PN2989
And that is an ambulance officer such as yourself, with the CEP7, which is a defibrillation training?---Yes.
PN2990
Why do you need the defibrillation training?---Why do we?
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN2991
Yes?---Because they have asked for it.
PN2992
Why do you need it?---If a patient arrests.
PN2993
And that is a possibility that you need to be able to deal with it?---Yes.
PN2994
All right. Now turning a few pages further on, there is a request for tender by the MAS, is that another request for tender that you responded to?---Yes.
PN2995
And you succeeded in that one?---Yes.
PN2996
And in part B of that is the requirements specification?---Yes.
PN2997
Again, we only have some of the pages of that, but if you go through that to page 15, item 13, it deals with DISPLAN?---Yes.
PN2998
You have to be available in the event of a major incident?---Mm.
PN2999
That is for emergency work?---Not necessarily, no.
PN3000
But it could be?---Yes.
PN3001
Okay. Has that ever happened, have you ever been called on?---No.
PN3002
And standby at public events, do you do that?---Not very often, no.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN3003
You do sometimes?---We haven't put in for that this year, so, no.
PN3004
But you have in the past?---Yes.
PN3005
And that is some things like I suppose for where you are, Stoney Creek races, or - - - ?---No, we don't do them.
PN3006
No, but a major event where there might be someone who collapses or some accident, a horse race, a jockey falling off the horse?---We have never attended a horse meeting, no.
PN3007
No. What have you attended?---A triathlon. We do very little.
PN3008
All right. Now, in addition to that you have prepared a number of job descriptions, have you not, including clinical supervisor, PD305? I think you will have them there if you keep turning the page. Operational supervisor, PD303. That might be someone that is at your control room, I suppose; is that right?---No, the branch.
PN3009
At the branch?---Yes.
PN3010
Who is in the control room?---Myself or my partner.
PN3011
THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry to interrupt you. For some reason or other I don't appear to have the job descriptions on the version that I - - -
PN3012
MR FRIEND: Any at all?
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN3013
THE COMMISSIONER: No.
PN3014
PN3015
MR FRIEND: We will just have to sort these out a little bit, Commissioner. Perhaps I will show these to the witness first, Commissioner, so he can have a look at them while we are getting them ready.
PN3016
So clinical supervisor, do you have that one there, PD305?---Yes.
PN3017
And that is a senior position. Is that someone who is going to be at the depot?---No, they are out on the road as well.
PN3018
They are out on the road?---Yes.
PN3019
All right. Operational supervisor, where are they?---They are on the road as well, yes.
PN3020
You are the one in the depot or in the control room?---Yes.
PN3021
Is that where you spend most of your time?---No, I try not to.
PN3022
You try and get out on the road most of the time?---No, I go out when I have to. I have got - - -
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN3023
How often is that?--- - - - other administrative duties to do. It is as required.
PN3024
How often?---Well, as required. I mean - - -
PN3025
How many times have you been out on the road this week?---None this week.
PN3026
What about last week?---I don't think I was out last week either.
PN3027
What about the week before?---I don't know about the week before.
PN3028
Can you remember the last time you were out on the road?---Well, I can remember it but I can't tell you what date it was, no.
PN3029
But was it within the last three months?---Yes, yes.
PN3030
Would you get out, what, a few times a year?---A lot more than that.
PN3031
You have got a lot of administrative work you said?---Yes, I do.
PN3032
And so you try and avoid being in the control room?---Yes.
PN3033
Because you want to get on with that administrative work?---Yes.
PN3034
And I suppose even more you try and avoid going out on the road because you are not contactable - - -?---It is not my function, no.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN3035
Yes, it is not your job?---Yes.
PN3036
So that your views of the nature of the work are conditioned by the fact that you don't do a great deal of it, correct?---Yes.
PN3037
Then you have got PD308, which is ambulance attendant. You have that one there?---Yes.
PN3038
Now, you have, in fact - I don't know if you prepared it but you have signed this one. And PD304, qualified ambulance officer?---Right.
PN3039
You would agree with me, wouldn't you, that the only difference between those two job descriptions is that one uses the word ambulance attendant and the other one uses the words qualified ambulance officer?---Yes.
PN3040
They are word for word the same otherwise?---Yes.
PN3041
Because it is the same job?---Yes.
PN3042
All right. Then there is a patient transport officer, PD306. Now, one of the duties - did you prepare the patient transport officer job description?---I am not sure I have got it here.
PN3043
I will give you one. Did you prepare this one? I think it is signed by you as well?---Look, I am not sure that I prepared it. I would have some input into it, yes.
PN3044
You have signed it, so it is right?---Yes.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN3045
The operational duties, this is under 1:
PN3046
be available and provide evidence of response capacity as part of a team, initiate appropriate patient care, management and transport.
PN3047
So they actually have to be involved in patient care, don't they?---No, they are not, inasmuch as if you are trying to lead me to say that they are medical care, no, not as far as any treatment of the patient is concerned, no. I mean, there is different word - care can also mean looking after someone. It doesn't necessarily mean - - -
PN3048
All right, sure. So do they take observations?---No, they don't.
PN3049
Never fill in a patient care record?---No, they do not.
PN3050
And never apply any medical thing to the patient at all?---No, they do not. No, they do not.
PN3051
So what if two of them are our together and something goes wrong. The patient starts to have a problem. What happens then?---Well, it depends what the problem is. I mean, what - - -
PN3052
A medical problem?---Well, it hasn't happened, so - - -
PN3053
A patient who has stable chest pain. They go out and the patient says I have got chest pain back?---Okay. Well, they would either contact us or if it was on MAS shift, they would contact their controller, their dispatcher and they would dispatch the appropriate vehicle.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN3054
And they don't do anything in the meantime?---No, they don't. If the patient arrested, I would expect them to do CPR but that is - - -
PN3055
They are expected to do that?---Of course they are.
PN3056
And, of course, one of their qualifications, on the last page, is ability to make appropriate decisions in time of critical situations?---Yes.
PN3057
That would be one of the sort of decisions they would have to make?---That would be one of them, yes.
PN3058
All right. Do you ever use taxis to transport patients?---No.
PN3059
Why not?---Why would I want to get a taxi to do our job?
PN3060
And your ambulances are more suitable for the patients that you are given to transport?---Correct.
PN3061
And for most of them, if not all of them, taxis would be totally inappropriate?---Well, I haven't seen too many taxis with stretchers in the back, no.
PN3062
No, exactly. So that really there is no comparison with the clinic transport vehicles at MAS, is there? Well, you remember Mr Quigley asked you some questions about whether MAS have clinic transport vehicles, I think they are called?---Yes.
PN3063
And whether they use taxis sometimes, and you said yes?---Yes, they do.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN3064
But that is really just a different area of operation to yours, which is all stretcher transport?---No, it is not all stretcher transport.
PN3065
No? Well, I thought you said not too many taxis could take stretchers?---Well, I thought you were talking about that side of it.
PN3066
Okay. So there is another side of it?---There is. There is a car division side of it, which transports patients able to walk.
PN3067
I see. And how many cars do you have?---Two.
PN3068
Are they all PTOs in the cars?---Yes.
PN3069
Now, you have seen a number of job descriptions there - - -
PN3070
THE COMMISSIONER: Could I just interrupt you, Mr Friend. I have got - I have sorted these in sequence. I just wondered whether there should be a PD307. I have got PD303, 4, 5, 6 and 8.
PN3071
MR FRIEND: I have got the original subpoenaed documents.
PN3072
THE COMMISSIONER: Maybe you can take it on notice, rather than - - -
PN3073
MR FRIEND: Mr Dawson, do you - you may not know this - - -?---I don't know what a 307 is, no.
PN3074
I don't know that it - - -?---If there is one. I am not sure.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN3075
PN3076
THE WITNESS: It could be a casual employee as a - - -
PN3077
MR FRIEND: Yes?---It is the same but it could be a casual employee. I don't know.
PN3078
Anyway, you would agree with me that there are a number of different qualifications you have got there?---Yes.
PN3079
And you will have someone in the radio room that is, hopefully, not you or your partner, and some other administrative staff?---Yes.
PN3080
Yes. Do you know how many classifications are in the award that you have asked for?---No.
PN3081
Do you know that most of those, apart from ambulance attendants, patient transport officers and one other, there is no classification in your proposed award for any of those employees? You didn't know that?---I didn't think about it.
PN3082
No. So it is your application that those people should be award free, is it not?---No.
PN3083
So you want them in the - you want them covered by the award?---No, I haven't - this is - I am not - I haven't thought about those people at all.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN3084
Well, you don't know if you want them covered by the award or not. Is that what you are saying?---I haven't thought about it. That is what I am saying.
PN3085
Well, see, the thing is, Mr Dawson, you have come to the Commission - your company has come to the Commission and said we want this award. Now, this award that you have asked for doesn't include classifications for a number of your employees who are covered by the existing award. The result is that they won't have any award covering them. Is that the result that you want?---No, not necessarily, no.
PN3086
Of course, the award that you have proposed also reduces a number of conditions that apply to your existing employees. You are aware of that, aren't you?---I don't think it does.
PN3087
Well, it reduces - - -?---From what they are getting at the moment, I don't think it does.
PN3088
No, no, their award entitlements; it reduces their award entitlements. You are aware of that?---I don't think it does.
PN3089
Well, I will tell you. The award that you have requested has a 20 per cent casual loading. Are you aware of that?---Yes.
PN3090
The existing award has a 25 per cent casual loading. Did you know that?---No.
PN3091
So that is a reduction, isn't it?---Yes.
PN3092
All right. The award you have requested has a lower rate of pay for ambulance officer. Are you aware of that?---No, I am not, and the thing about it is I am not interested in paying people less than what they are already getting.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN3093
But you have come to the Commission asking for an award that provides for that. Do you mean now you don't really want it; you don't care if the Commission does that - - -?---No. We want a base that we can work from and what we are trying to do is to show that the ambulance officers, or whatever you want to call them, that work in our industry do not do the same work as those in the emergency sector.
PN3094
And the reason you are trying to show that is because you want the Commission to lower the rate of pay applicable to those people in the relevant award, correct?---No, we are trying to bring in awards - award classification for ones that aren't already there.
PN3095
No. Ambulance officer is already there, isn't it?---Yes, but that is a term that should be changed anyway, in my opinion, because under the Act - - -
PN3096
No. Well, I didn't ask you if the term should be changed. Ambulance officer is already there. You want a lower rate than the existing one in your award, correct?---If that is what it says there, you tell me that we are offering something less, well, I would have to say yes.
PN3097
But is that what you want or don't you really care, because you haven't thought about it?---I want the classifications to be looked at and to get remunerated for what the position is.
PN3098
So you want the lower rate?---Yes.
PN3099
You want no increments, whereas the current award provides for two increments?---Yes.
PN3100
You want only three classifications so a number of people are award free?---Yes.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN3101
You want make-up pay for 26 weeks instead of 39?---Yes.
PN3102
You want a reduced shift allowance?---Yes.
PN3103
You want reduced overtime?---Yes.
PN3104
You want to remove some of the allowances?---Yes, we do.
PN3105
You want to remove the ADO if there is a 40-hour week?---Well, it doesn't concern me. That is not my company.
PN3106
Doesn't concern you? Don't have a 40-hour week?---No.
PN3107
What is your week, 38?---38. I must say that one thing with - the confusing part with our company is we are talking about three different companies and some of the things that we pay, we are not going to reduce at all. Now - - -
PN3108
Sorry. You are talking about three different companies?---Well, there is three different companies.
PN3109
You operate three different companies?---No, no, there is three different companies that are putting this together and they have all had their say in what they want, not necessarily what I want, but we have to come to some consensus of where we are going with it.
PN3110
I see, yes, fair enough. Who are the three companies?---Well, it is Wilson and Medical Transport Services.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN3111
And you. But you have come to that agreement as a sort of bottom line for the three of you as what you want and am I to assume that you have discussed this with your employees and told them you have come here, asked to lower the safety net beneath them?---They are aware of what we are doing.
PN3112
They know you are asking - I mean, you didn't know you - when you sat in that box this afternoon, you didn't know you were wanting less?---No, look, no, what I have said to my - - -
PN3113
Have you told them?---What I have said to my employees is that there is no attempt by our company - now, I can't speak on behalf of the other two.
PN3114
No, I am only asking about yours?---Okay. There is no attempt from our company to lower anything, other than what they are getting now. Now, there might be an award in place which puts in certain entitlements but that doesn't mean to say that we are going to do that.
PN3115
Well, why do you want to lower the entitlements, the safety net, if it is not going to change anything you do with your employees?---Because, as I said before, we feel that being lumped in with what the emergency sector does, obviously the AEA would like to then turn round and say later on, well, paramedics in the emergency sector should get more because you have got this, and then it is a leapfrog and it just gets out of control. We, unlike the public ambulance service, we have got contracts which we have worked out for three years on what we can afford to do. Now, obviously - - -
PN3116
I understand what you are saying as a justification for a separate award which is exactly the same?---Yes.
PN3117
But, you see, you are telling me you don't want to change anything about what you do with your employees. You just want to lower the safety net without it causing any change. It won't affect you fiscally, won't affect you in a money way at all - - -?---No.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN3118
- - - because you are not changing what you are doing. Well, my question is why do you want to lower the safety net?---Because of what I just said, that there is always a push from the unions to use the lowest to go further ahead. Now, if I put in - I could put in a price and say, well, we are happy to pay what paramedics are getting paid today, and if that is accepted, then tomorrow the union put in a log of claims to the Ambulance Service and away it goes. And we can't afford to do that. We are operating at a third of what the Ambulance Service charges are. We employ 400 people in the industry who are happy to come and work for us under terms and conditions that we provide.
PN3119
But they are above the conditions that you want the award to provide?---Precisely.
PN3120
So why do you want the award to be lowered?---I have just told you that.
PN3121
Well, what you have said, so far as I can understand it, is you think the union will do something to you if you have the same provisions in the award as the public sector?---Yes.
PN3122
Well, what have they done to you over the last eight years?---Well, here today.
PN3123
We didn't ask you?---Yes, you did.
PN3124
Not for this?---I was summonsed here in the first place. Otherwise I wouldn't be here.
PN3125
Well, Mr Dawson, you haven't been summonsed by the union. The union hasn't summonsed you here, apart from bringing the documents?---Well, it is the same thing.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN3126
It hasn't asked you to come and give evidence?---It is the same thing.
PN3127
It is an application by your company to - - -?---Yes, in conjunction with two others.
PN3128
In conjunction with two others - - - ?---Yes.
PN3129
- - - to reduce the terms and conditions of the award?---That is correct.
PN3130
Now, my point to you was that over the eight years that your company has been bound by the award - I will put it this way - the only changes to the award that have been made have been safety net increases that affect you?---Correct.
PN3131
So I ask again, why - - -?---Well, as I said before - - -
PN3132
Let me finish the question. I ask again, why do you want to lower the safety net?---Because we feel, once again, that being in the private sector, we are not the same as the public sector and this is our opportunity to be able to do something to have us separate from the public emergency sector.
PN3133
Well, you know that the public emergency sector have certified agreements, don't you?---Yes.
PN3134
You are not party to them, are you?---No.
PN3135
You are separate and you are treated differently, aren't you?---I don't know if we are treated any differently.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON XXN MR FRIEND
PN3136
Well, you are not bound by those agreements?---No, we are not bound by those agreements, no.
PN3137
Would you be happy to pay the terms and conditions in those agreements?---I don't know what they are, so I don't know.
PN3138
Well, they are higher than the awards, so - - -?---Are they? Okay.
PN3139
- - - probably not, I suspect?---Probably not.
PN3140
Thank you, Mr Dawson.
PN3141
PN3142
MR QUIGLEY: Mr Dawson, can you take you back to that document on the transport of people with a mental illness. It is exhibit P12. Can I take you to page 11. Can you see the heading there, Inter-Agency Transfer?---Yes.
PN3143
Do you believe that - I will withdraw that. What do you understand that says?---I guess it is saying that where a hospital is transferring a patient with a mental illness, they determine if it goes by ambulance or whether there is a more appropriate form of transport.
PN3144
Would this cover the case of a mental patient who is being taken to hospital to have an X-ray?---Yes.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON RXN MR QUIGLEY
PN3145
Thanks. I will move on. Mr Friend took you to two job descriptions, the one for the qualified ambulance officer - that is PD304 - and the ambulance attendant, 308. Could I take you to the last page of each of those. Will you have a look at item 2 under the heading Relevant Qualifications and Experience in respect of both of those. Will you tell the Commission whether or not the qualifications that are referred there in each of those are the same or whether they are different?---They are different.
PN3146
Mr Dawson, are you aware of the difference between an underpinning award and a certified agreement or an Australian Workplace Agreement?---I have got not much knowledge on those, no.
PN3147
Do you know the difference between an award and an over award agreement?---Do I know the difference?
PN3148
Yes?---Well, I assume the over award agreement is one where you are paying more than what the award says.
PN3149
Your employees are employed under the Ambulance Award, aren't they?---Yes.
PN3150
Do you pay your employees strictly what the award says?---No.
PN3151
Does the rate of pay that you pay your employees have regard to what I will call market rates? Do you know what I mean by that term?---Yes, it does, yes.
PN3152
And is it the case that whatever the decision the Commission makes in respect of a safety net award for your employees, having regard to the principles of the Industrial Relations Commission and the requirements of the Workplace Relations Act, which the Commission is bound to observe, that whatever the Commission rules, if you need to attract employees for the jobs that you do, that somewhere along the line you have to have regard to the market rates?---Yes. There is no doubt about that.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON RXN MR QUIGLEY
PN3153
And you are aware, are you, that you may not pay employees less than that which is required by the award?---Yes.
PN3154
Mr Friend raised with you the case of what might happen if a patient develops chest pains during the course of a transfer. Would it be the case that a patient who is likely to have chest pains - would a person such as that be transported or be - sorry. Would a call be made for the transport of such a person - be made with that knowledge?---No. Any patient that has even a cardiac history that we transport has got to be pain free for at least an hour before we transport them.
PN3155
Would such a case of a person - are you aware if a case of somebody in that - more than one hour pain free - would they be likely to be transported in those MAS cars that you were referring to earlier?---Yes.
PN3156
Can people be transferred from one - whether from home to a hospital or between hospitals in a manner other than in a patient transport vehicle?---I am not quite sure what you - - -
PN3157
If a hospital is transferring somebody from, say Cabrini to Donvale Rehabilitation Centre, is it always the case that a person being moved from one facility to another has to travel in a patient transport vehicle?---No.
PN3158
In the course of your running a business in the transport of patients, Mr Dawson, have you been in this tribunal before?---No.
PN3159
Would you be aware that some of the issues that Mr Friend put to you about the application that has been made on behalf of Wilson Patient Transport, Medical Transport Services and Patient Transit Care - that some of those issues go to what the Industrial Relations Commission and the Workplace Relations Act stipulate are not allowed in an award?---No, I am not aware.
[3.50pm]
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON RXN MR QUIGLEY
PN3160
But they are matters - some of those matters that are in the award have been done on advice that you have received?---Could you repeat that.
PN3161
There has been an application put to the Commission by three companies, one of which is the company that you are involved with, is that right?---Yes.
PN3162
And was the form of the application one that involved not only yourself, but representative of the other two companies?---Yes.
PN3163
And I think you indicated to Mr Friend that you are one of the three - - - ?---Yes.
PN3164
- - - and in a sense there was a compromise arrangement between all the parties?---Yes.
PN3165
Is your knowledge of what goes on in your business limited by the number of times you are on the road at all?---No.
PN3166
If you were on the road every day or two or three times a month, are you saying to the Commission that your views would be the same?---Yes.
PN3167
I have no other questions of the witness, Commissioner.
PN3168
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. If I could just take you to the position descriptions and the two that Mr Quigley, that is the Qualified Ambulance Officer and the Ambulance Attendant, and you indicated there that the mandatory - the qualifications were different. Could you explain to me what the qualifications are for each of those?---The qualifications for an ambulance officer is obviously someone who has gone through and done the training through the Ambulance Service. An ambulance attendant is something that has
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON RXN MR QUIGLEY
come since deregulation because of the need to get people in the industry, because with ambulance officers there just weren't enough out there and that was brought in through the universities to get people that don't have the ambulance qualification to gain a qualification to be able to perform a function of an ambulance attendant, just a primary carer in the non-emergency sector.
PN3169
Okay?---So the ambulance officer wording probably from the start was not correct. It is just a historical thing, because if the ambulance service were to be deregulated what do we call ourselves. No-one knew and obviously yourself or any hospital staff just recognise that you are an ambulance man and that is why the ambulance officer stuck with it - the position just stayed the same. Now the Ambulance Act says we can't call ourselves an ambulance officer - it is an offence.
PN3170
Call yourself?---An ambulance officer. I can't call myself an ambulance officer. Everybody else does. But I can't because it is an offence to do that. The same with our vehicles. We can't have "ambulance" on our vehicles because it is an offence to do that. It is just an historical thing that the word "ambulance officer" has stuck and they were the only people in the first instance that were - that when it was deregulated they were the only people that were being employed because there was no-one else.
PN3171
The terms now contained in the simplified award is, from memory, an ambulance paramedic and an ambulance paramedic MICA?---Mm.
PN3172
Would you, given that you are employed within the State Ambulance Services up until '94, how would you rate the qualifications you require of a qualified ambulance in PD304 with an ambulance officer pre, say around 1989?---The qualification is a bit higher.
PN3173
Would be?---A little higher.
PN3174
A little bit higher now?---Now. Yes.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON RXN MR QUIGLEY
PN3175
For your qualified - - - ?---No, no, sorry. They would be the same.
PN3176
They would be the same as what, sorry?---From 1989, you are talking about?
PN3177
Yes?---To 1994?
PN3178
Yes?---They would be the same. The same qualification.
PN3179
Your qualification?---Yes.
PN3180
But I am talking about the people that you employ as qualified ambulance officers?---That would be the same.
PN3181
But they are not equal to ambulance paramedics?---No.
PN3182
And in relation to - I am sorry, I just want to get clear - the ambulance attendants' qualifications now that the AOTC doesn't operate, they have to be qualified?---Yes. Well, there is various ways. There is through Vic Uni, they do courses with PTOs to upgrade their skills and they do a - if you got to be a PTO for 18 months and then they can do another year to obtain a qualification. Nurses - they have got to do a conversion course also to become ambulance attendants.
PN3183
Right. And the qualified ambulance officers?---Well, you can only do that through the Ambulance Services.
PN3184
All right, and what about the degree course at VUT?---You can do the degree course through VUT which is a three year course - a batchelor. But once again I am not sure of what happens at the end of that process whether they automatically become a paramedic or whether they have to do more in-service training within the ambulance service - I am not sure after that.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON RXN MR QUIGLEY
PN3185
Thank you. If I could take you to this document regarding the transport of people with mental illness, now when it was introduced it was, I understood it was a discussion paper but now, given your response to questions, I understand that is what is recommended take place by well, the ambulance services - the emergency ambulance services, if I might use that term, plus companies such as yourself?---Well, we don't appear in this at all. We are not party to it at all.
PN3186
Well, could I just take you to page 2 of the document and there was some evidence canvassed in relation to voluntary and involuntary patients, and there there is quite a change in terms of what the protocol states and as you - as I read 2.02, maybe I will give you a chance to read that. Now that seems to suggest to me that people can be transported who are involuntary or voluntary by means of other than an ambulance. If I take you to page 7 if you look there under "transport options" in fact if you quickly scan that page it talks about, in the second paragraph where there are three dot points:
PN3187
A private vehicle driven by a family member, a taxi or an agency vehicle -
PN3188
and I just wonder whether you would be considered an agency vehicle?---As far as I know we are not.
PN3189
Do you know what the term "agency vehicle" means?---Well, I assume it belonged to the hospital or the mental facility.
PN3190
Right?---We are a private organisation, we don't belong to those.
PN3191
Okay?---And if you look down further it says:
PN3192
An ambulance must always be requested where there is an urgent need for medical treatment.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON RXN MR QUIGLEY
PN3193
And it says:
PN3194
And ambulance should also be used when a person requires mechanical restraints.
PN3195
Well, we can't do that. We are not prescribed under the Act - under the Mental Health Act, to be able to do that.
PN3196
But if they are not under restraint, but sedated?---They are not sedated either. We are not allowed to do that either.
PN3197
I see. Even a voluntary patient?---Well, usually patients aren't restrained.
PN3198
But can't the situation arise where they are?---Well, we wouldn't do it, because we can't. We can't restrain patients.
PN3199
No, no. I meant if they were sedated - if it was an involuntary patient who had been sedated and you were the doctor or whatever - - - ?---Well, I didn't write the document, I am not sure about that one and I have never heard of a voluntary patient being sedated for transfer.
PN3200
No, I am only asking this because I have been asked to take this document as a guide for me to come to a view about all of the things that are being argued and - - - ?---I couldn't see any reason why a voluntary patient, depending on sedation - some patients are unconscious with sedation - it depends on what you are talking about sedation, whether it is just a valium to calm them down and they are voluntary and they are willing to go with this. I couldn't see a reason why we wouldn't be able to do that.
PN3201
If they were unconscious?---Definitely we wouldn't be doing that.
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON RXN MR QUIGLEY
PN3202
You wouldn't, okay?---No.
PN3203
Now, if I could take you to page 17. Do I take it that given your earlier answer, that in fact you are about the only form of vehicle under someone cannot be transported, if one understands an ambulance to be an Emergency Service vehicle, private vehicle can be used, a taxi, an agency vehicle or an Ambulance, but not - - -?---Correct.
PN3204
Thank you. Evidence has been given by a number of witnesses in relation to private transport, patient transport companies such as yourself, that if they happen upon a road accident, a vehicle accident or some emergency, that they have at least a moral obligation, and I think the evidence in some instances went beyond that to say there was a requirement to stop and provide assistance, and make assessments, and depending upon the assessment, arrange for an emergency vehicle to come on the scene. Does that apply to your company?---Yes.
PN3205
If you came across - if your company vehicle comes across such a situation, and it is staffed by an ambulance officer, or an ambulance attendant, do they provide assistance to people who are seriously ill?---Yes.
PN3206
In relation to the transport of people - and I gather that PCRs are used by your company?---Yes.
PN3207
If a person being transported subject to PCR being used, or, for that matter, anyone else, I suppose, if there is a sudden deterioration in their condition, I think you have already given evidence that if necessary, cardiac arrest, a defibrillator is used?---Yes.
PN3208
Are other forms of treatment given in order to prevent the person dying, if it is within the competencies of your people?---In regards to drugs, or in an arrest situation?
**** DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON RXN MR QUIGLEY
PN3209
Yes. I know it is a wide question?---Yes. Well, there is no - if you are talking about drug intervention with a cardiac arrest, no we don't have drugs. They would do normal defibrillation CPR, oxygen administration, which would be no different to anybody else that had the knowledge. It is nothing extra that we give.
PN3210
But you use whatever the vehicles are equipped with?---Yes.
PN3211
Are there any questions which flow from my questions?
PN3212
MR FRIEND: No, Commissioner.
PN3213
MR QUIGLEY: Just one point, Commissioner. I think it was my fault when I introduced exhibit B12 I referred to it as a discussion paper, because there is another one I have got which is almost identical. It is in fact, as you see in the introduction to it, a protocol. I am sorry.
PN3214
THE COMMISSIONER: That is all right, we have clarified the issue. So that is what I was about, Mr Quigley. So thank you for that. Apology is not necessary.
PN3215
Well, thank you for your evidence. I must instruct you, Mr Dawson, that I think there is only - well we don't know yet - I think there is only one more witness scheduled, Mr Brown. You are not to discuss your evidence with him, or discuss any evidence that he might give in this case until after he has given his evidence. But other than that, normal business use, you are free to talk about other issues. Thank you.
PN3216
THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Quigley.
PN3217
MR QUIGLEY: That is all we have got today, Commissioner. We would be proposing to have Mr Brown here tomorrow afternoon for the next proceedings.
PN3218
THE COMMISSIONER: Right. Now, you have foreshadowed an application for a subpoena being issue.
PN3219
MR QUIGLEY: No, but we would be proposing to get on to that as soon as I can get back to the office.
PN3220
THE COMMISSIONER: Obviously the request will be made of me to sign the subpoena.
PN3221
MR QUIGLEY: Yes.
PN3222
THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it is a question I suppose we can deal with after Mr Brown has been dealt with. I foreshadowed that if I receive such a request, I would deal with it after Mr Brown has given his evidence. In other words, I will not issue a subpoena until I have heard submissions in relation to whether I should or not. Unless Mr Friend you have something else you wish to put to me in relation to that.
PN3223
MR FRIEND: No, sir. It would be more convenient to have the draft subpoena before us to make the submissions. I think that is a better course.
PN3224
THE COMMISSIONER: Do you have any difficulty with that?
PN3225
MR QUIGLEY: No. I was going to propose that in any event, Commissioner.
PN3226
THE COMMISSIONER: Fine. Well, I do not see there is a need to direct. My expectation is that once the application is lodged for the subpoena with the Registry of this Commission, contemporaneously a copy will be provided to the other side. And presumably, given that an officer of MAS is involved, it is my understanding it is someone from MAS, that they also receive a copy.
PN3227
MR QUIGLEY: I will see that that is done, Commissioner.
PN3228
THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. We adjourn now until 1.30 tomorrow afternoon.
ADJOURNED UNTIL THURSDAY 3 OCTOBER 2002 [4.07pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
RICHARD ANDREW AIRD BEARUP, SWORN PN2389
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND PN2389
EXHIBIT #F18 STATEMENT OF RICHARD ANDREW AIRD BEARUP PN2396
EXHIBIT #F19 STATEMENT OF RICHARD ANDREW AIRD BEARUP PN2409
EXHIBIT #F20 BLUE MAS DOCUMENT PN2409
EXHIBIT #F21 PCR PN2409
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR QUIGLEY PN2410
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND PN2496
WITNESS WITHDREW PN2518
WILLIAM GEORGE McKNIGHT, SWORN PN2519
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND PN2519
EXHIBIT #F22 STATEMENT OF W.G. McKNIGHT PN2526
EXHIBIT #F23 NEWSLETTER GIVEN TO STAFF BY WILSON PATIENT TRANSPORT PN2533
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR QUIGLEY PN2538
WITNESS WITHDREW PN2588
PAMELA VIVIENNE BRUNSWICK, SWORN PN2589
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND PN2589
EXHIBIT #F18 STATEMENT OF PAMELA VIVIENNE BRUNSWICK PN2595
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR QUIGLEY PN2610
WITNESS WITHDREW PN2655
ANDREW HENERY McDONELL, AFFIRMED PN2661
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND PN2661
EXHIBIT #F24 STATEMENT OF ANDREW HENERY McDONELL PN2668
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR QUIGLEY PN2709
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND PN2741
WITNESS WITHDREW PN2746
EXHIBIT #P2 SUBMISSIONS DATED 23 AUGUST PN2755
EXHIBIT #P3 SUBMISSIONS DATED 20 SEPTEMBER PN2755
EXHIBIT #P4 TASMANIAN AMBULANCE SERVICE AWARD PN2802
EXHIBIT #P5 QUEENSLAND AMBULANCE SERVICE AWARD PN2803
EXHIBIT #P6 NORTHERN TERRITORY AMBULANCE SERVICE AWARD PN2805
EXHIBIT #P7 WESTERN AUSTRALIAN AMBULANCE SERVICE AWARD PN2806
EXHIBIT #P8 SOUTH AUSTRALIAN AMBULANCE SERVICE AWARD PN2807
EXHIBIT #P9 AUSTRALIAN CAPITAL TERRITORY AMBULANCE SERVICE AWARD PN2808
EXHIBIT #P10 SIMPLIFIED EMPLOYMENT CONDITIONS (ACT) PUBLIC SECTOR AWARD PN2811
DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON, SWORN PN2812
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR QUIGLEY PN2812
EXHIBIT #P11 WITNESS STATEMENT OF DOUGLAS LESLIE DAWSON PN2821
EXHIBIT #P12 DISCUSSION PAPER PRODUCED BY DEPARTMENT OF HUMAN SERVICES HEADED AMBULANCE TRANSPORT OF PEOPLE WITH A MENTAL ILLNESS PN2828
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND PN2851
EXHIBIT #F25 JOB DESCRIPTIONS PN3015
EXHIBIT #F26 BUNDLE OF SUBPOENAED DOCUMENTS PN3076
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR QUIGLEY PN3142
WITNESS WITHDREW PN3216
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