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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 4, 60-70 Elizabeth St SYDNEY NSW 2000
DX1344 Sydney Tel:(02) 9238-6500 Fax:(02) 9238-6533
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT DUNCAN
C2002/4897
AUSTRALIAN AIRLINES LIMITED
and
AUSTRALIAN AND INTERNATIONAL PILOTS
ASSOCIATION
Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of an industrial dispute re wages and working
conditions
C2002/4898
ENTERPRISE BARGAINING AWARD
Application under section 111(1)(b) of the Act
by Australian Airlines Limited and Another for
the making of the Australian Airlines Pilots
Award 2002
AG2002/5211
APPLICATION FOR CERTIFICATION
OF AGREEMENT
Application under section 170LL of the Act
by Australian Airlines Limited and Another for
certification of the Australian Airlines Pilots
Enterprise Bargaining Agreement 2002
SYDNEY
2.07 PM, FRIDAY, 4 OCTOBER 2002
PN1
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Could I have appearances, please?
PN2
MR N. OGILVIE: Senior Deputy President, I seek leave to appear on behalf of Australian Airlines Limited and with me is MR G. McKURDY, the Customer Service Manager for Australian Airlines Limited.
PN3
MR M. O'NEIL: If the Commission pleases, I seek leave to appear on behalf of the Australian and International Pilots Association.
PN4
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. There will obviously be no difficulty about the leave, so that is granted. It is my intention to deal with the matters seriatim, but I will reserve a decision in the first one until I have heard the second one and will give one decision, so can we deal first with the section 99 matter.
PN5
MR OGILVIE: Your Honour, I would just like to thank your Honour for calling this matter on at short notice and we also thank you for the opportunity to address some of the matters that were raised yesterday by your office. The matters before the Commission today, all three matters address the establishment of a federal award and certified agreement to govern the terms and conditions of pilots to be employed by Australian Airlines Limited. Your Honour having already been involved in the making of an award and certified agreement between the company and the Flight Attendants Association of Australia, we understand your Honour might be familiar with some of the background to the company's operations.
PN6
MR OGILVIE: Do I need to go through the background, your Honour?
PN7
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, thank you.
PN8
MR OGILVIE: These applications are by consent for all three matters, I will be making the majority of the submissions but I will seek the assistance of Mr O'Neil where necessary, given his experience with the terms and conditions for pilots and his involvement in the background to the matters.
PN9
In relation to the first matter, C2002/4897, on 17 September 2002 the company was formally served with a letter of demand and log of claims in relation to wages and conditions for pilots to be employed by the company. On 1 October the Commission was notified of a dispute between Australian Airlines and the Australian and International Pilots Association in relation to that log of claims.
PN10
Attached to the notification were a copy of the letter of demand and log of claims served on the company on 17 September 2002, a letter dated 29 September 2002 from Mr Michael O'Neil, legal counsel for industrial relations for the Association. That letter sets out the list required by rule 14(2)(c) of the Australian Industrial Relations Rules, a person served with the letter of demand and log of claims, and also includes a statement required by rule 14(2)(d) regarding service of the letter of demand and log of claims.
PN11
In addition, attached to the notification was a letter dated 29 September 2002 from Captain Duggan who is the president of the Association containing the statement required by rule 14(2)(e) regarding authorisation of the log.
PN12
The parties request that the Commission determine the existence of an industrial dispute between Australian Airlines Limited and the Australian and International Pilots Association, either in terms of an industrial dispute as defined by section 4 of the Act or in accordance with section 5 of the Act on the basis that the dispute is an industrial issue, that is, it involves matters pertaining to the relationship between flight crew officers and flight crew officers employers so far as those matters relate to trade or commerce between Australian and a place outside of Australia or between the States.
PN13
In this regard we note your Honour's findings in relation to the dispute between Australian Airlines and the Flight Attendants Association of Australia in matter C2002/3485. That involved the same employer but the employees did not fall within the definition of flight crew officers under section 5 of the Act but a dispute was able to be find on the basis of the nature of the business to be operated and we say it is the same business that has been talked about in this matter, your Honour. If there are no further questions, we would ask that the Commission determine the existence of a dispute between the parties in relation to that log of claims.
PN14
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you have anything to say on that matter, Mr O'Neil?
PN15
MR O'NEIL: No, your Honour.
PN16
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: As I indicated at the beginning, I will find the dispute but I will reserve my decision on it until I have heard you on the 111(b) matter, Mr Ogilvie. I will have that called.
C2002/4898
ENTERPRISE BARGAINING AWARD
Application under section 111(1)(b) of the Act
by Australian Airlines Limited and Another for
the making of the Australian Airlines Pilots
Award 2002
PN17
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I note that appearances have already been taken in this matter in the previous matter so Mr Ogilvie, what's the position?
PN18
MR OGILVIE: Your Honour, pursuant to section 111(1)(b) of the act, the parties invite the Commission to make an award by consent in the form of the proposed award filed with the Commission on 1 October 2002 in partial resolution of the dispute between the parties in matter C2002/4897. The award that was filed is to be known as the Australian Airlines Pilots Award 2002.
PN19
Filed with the award were a letter dated 29 September 2002 signed by Captain Duggan, President of the Association, containing the statement required by rule 20 paragraph (2) indicating that the terms of the proposed award by consent have been approved by the Association and a letter dated 1 October 2002 signed by Mr Dennis Adams, Chief Executive Officer of Australian Airlines containing a statement required by rule 20 subrule (2) indicating the terms of the proposed award by consent have been approved by Australian Airlines.
PN20
It's submitted by the parties that the proposed award complies with the requirements of sections 143(1)(c) and section 143(1)(d) of the act. We note that there's been communication from your Honour's office in regard to a number of matters in relation to the proposed award and Mr O'Neil and I will address each of these matters in order. In accordance with the parties submissions regarding those matters which are to follow, it is submitted that the award consists of only allowable matters under section 89A(2) and or incidental matters that are necessary for the effective operation of the award pursuant to section 89A(6).
PN21
Does your Honour have a copy of a folder of materials that have been handed up?
PN22
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I do.
PN23
MR OGILVIE: The first matter that the parties have been referred to is the allowability of clauses 9.2 which relates to exclusive service, clause 10 which relates to orders to pilots and in clause 13 which is an indemnity and release in the proposed award. It is submitted that pursuant to section 89A(6) these clauses should be included in the award because they are each incidental to allowable matters contained in the award and are necessary for the effective operation of the award.
PN24
By way of background, clauses in the same terms as each of these clauses are currently contained in the Qantas Airways Limited Technical Air Crew (Long Haul) Award 1996 and that award is in that folder of materials at tab 1, your Honour, and where the subject of a decision of Commissioner Wilks on 7 January 1999, which is print R0488 during the simplification of that award and that decision of Commissioner Wilks is contained at tab 2 of your Honour's materials.
PN25
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. I'll take the reference on notice, Mr Ogilvie.
PN26
MR OGILVIE: Do you want me to take you to Commissioner Wilks' decision?
PN27
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, that's what I meant.
PN28
MR OGILVIE: Sorry, your Honour, I misunderstood.
PN29
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You've referred me to it and I accept your reference.
PN30
MR OGILVIE: Just for convenience, the three clauses, clause 9.2, clause 10 and clause 13 of the proposed award are mirrored by the current clause 13.2, 13.41 and 13.5 of the Qantas (Long Haul) Award. However, they are referred to in the decision that was renumbered between the decision and the actual making of the award. So it's actually 4.12, 4.1.4A and 4.1.5 are the relevant references in Commissioner Wilks' decision.
PN31
The second matter which we've been asked to address is the allowability of clause 17.2.1 which deals with base salaries for captains and first officers. My instructions are that the rates of pay in the award have been set as an appropriate safety net minimum rate of pay and they've been calculated by reference to the rates currently set out in the B767 hourly rates for captains and first officers under the Qantas (Long Haul) Award which is the document in tab 1.
PN32
The rates aren't directly comparable and it might be appropriate if Mr O'Neil explains to your Honour the way in which those rates have been set. I also note that there's submissions on that point under tab 5 of the documents that your Honour has been provided with.
PN33
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well. Yes, Mr O'Neil?
PN34
MR O'NEIL: Your Honour, the amount that this application is based on has been ruled to satisfy the requirements of section 51(4) of the Workplace Relations Act and I refer you again to the decision of Commissioner Wilks, print T20067. The Qantas Safety Net Award rate for a B767 captain is 129.56 per credited hour. In order to generate the minimum rate for the Australian Airlines Award, we've taken this minimum figure of 129.56. It's been adjusted to take into account the 2001 and 2002 living wage claims of effectively $17 and $18 per week.
PN35
There is a formula or a method that has been agreed between Qantas and the Association that relates to the translation of that weekly rate into an hourly rate for the purposes of the Qantas Award. I won't go into it. That's set out at tab 5 in my submissions but effectively it involves taking the 17 or $18 amount, multiplying it by 52 weeks in the year and then dividing it by 858 which is the minimum guaranteed hours for Qantas pilots as set out in the award, in the Qantas Award obviously. That gave us an adjusted minimum hourly rate for a B767 captain of $131.68.
PN36
The fundamental difference between the Qantas Award and the proposed Australian Airlines Award is the method by which pilots are paid. Under the Australian Airlines Award, a pilot is to be paid a stick hour, what is called a stick hour rate. If I can refer you to tab 7, I've included an explanation of the difference between a stick hour rate which is what we'll be paying pilots or what Australian Airlines will be paying pilots under and a credited hour rate which is how Qantas mainline pilots are paid.
PN37
I won't go into the details of the difference, suffice to say that a stick hour is a work hour. Namely, a pilot sitting in a cockpit of an aeroplane.
PN38
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: At the stick?
PN39
MR O'NEIL: At the stick, exactly. A credited hour is really a pay hour.
PN40
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It's artificial?
PN41
MR O'NEIL: It's artificial. It includes amounts for night flying, it includes amounts for long trips. It potentially includes amounts when a pilot is travelling on another aeroplane other than as a pilot, training credits, annual leave credits etcetera, so it's a pay figure not a work figure. There is an agreed method for translating a credited hour rate to a stick hour rate which has been used by Qantas and the Association previously and it was agreed between Australian Airlines and the Association that it was an appropriate formula to use. That's also set out at tab 5.
PN42
The formula is, and if I can refer you to the last page on tab 5, your Honour, it might make it a little bit easier to follow. A minimum stick hour salary for an Australian Airlines captain will be created for want of a better term by dividing 105 which is the average pay credited hours for a Qantas captain for a B767 Qantas captain for an eight week bid period. Dividing that by 900 which is the maximum allowable hours that an Australian Airlines captain can fly, that gives a number of 1.227, I think.
PN43
If you multiply that figure by the minimum credited hour rate for a B767 captain and then multiply that by 700, you will get the minimum salary figure based on 700 stick hours of 113,172 per annum for a captain.
PN44
The first officer rate is very simply 65 per cent of that rate, which is the universal aviation industry standard for first officers. First officers are paid 65 per cent of what an accountant is paid.
PN45
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see. I am glad it was in writing, Mr Annal.
PN46
MR O'NEIL: Yes, it is a convoluted exercise, your Honour, and I apologise for the complexity of it. It's simply the nature of the agreement between the parties. Needless to say, a stick hour rate is infinitely more user friendly as far as the employer is concerned for calculating a pilot's annual salary than is an accredited hour.
PN47
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I won't go too far down that track; let me simply say that the stick hour rate which is reflected in the annual rate in the award as put before the Commission clearly satisfies the properly fixed minimum rate requirement. I will say no more.
PN48
MR ANNAL: Thank you, your Honour.
PN49
MR OGILVIE: Your Honour, there was one other matter in relation to the award that the parties attention has been drawn to. I might have this wrong, I might have misunderstood, it was whether or not the leave conditions in the award match up for pilots in relation to other awards that apply to pilots in Australia.
PN50
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, it's principle 11, first awards have to have not a relationship but are influenced by conditions in similar working conditions.
PN51
MR OGILVIE: Yes, your Honour. In that respect we can confirm that that is correct. The annual leave provisions of the Ansett Airlines of Australia Pilots Award 1989 in the materials at tab 8, we would say that the entitlements for leave and other conditions also are equivalent to those provided under the Qantas Airways Limited Technical Air Crew Long Haul Award 1996 which is the award at tab 1. The way the clauses have been structured and put into the award are slightly different but the entitlements under the two are equivalent.
PN52
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think that completes it, Mr Ogilvie, thank you. I can move to a decision in the two matters that have been approached so far today. They concern the finding of a dispute between the Australian and International Pilots Association and Australian Airlines Limited and the making of a consent award between those two parties.
PN53
I find that there is a dispute created between the parties named. I am satisfied of the service and rejection of a log of claims properly authorised by AIPA. A formal finding under section 111 will issue in due course. The parties to the dispute are those named above. The matters in dispute are those contained in the log of claims which accompany the letter of 17 September 2002 and which was served that day.
PN54
Consequent on the finding of a dispute the parties have made application for the making of a consent award under section 111(1)(b) of the Workplace Relations Act. Both parties have filed statements of consent required by rule 22 of the common rules. Having perused the document and having had the benefit of submissions and documentary material presented today by Mr Ogilvie and Mr Annal I am satisfied that the proposed award consists only of matters allowable by section 89A(2) or incidental and necessary to those matters. The rates fixed are minimum rates as required by section 89A(3).
PN55
The award complies with the requirements of subsections 143(1)(b), (1)(c) and (1)(d) of the Act. Subject to reformatting, which I don't think will be extreme, the award will be made with effect from today. Does anybody have any view as to its term, or need it simply be a six-months or -
PN56
MR OGILVIE: I think that's appropriate, your Honour.
PN57
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, it will have a term of six months. We can now move to the third matter in the list in this set and I will have it called.
AG2002/5211
APPLICATION FOR CERTIFICATION
OF AGREEMENT
Application under section 170LL of the Act
by Australian Airlines Limited and Another for
certification of the Australian Airlines Pilots
Enterprise Bargaining Agreement 2002
PN58
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I note that this matter is one of a series and that appearances have already been taken. I take the opportunity to direct that there be one transcript prepared for these matters. Mr Ogilvie?
PN59
MR N. OGILVIE: Thank you, your Honour. This is an application by Australian Airlines Limited under division 2 of part IVB of the Workplace Relations Act 1996 for the certification of an agreement known as the Australian Airlines Pilots Enterprise Bargaining Agreement 2002. The application for certification was filed by my office with a covering letter on 1 October 2002.
PN60
Accompanying the application were a statutory declaration of Mr Dennis Adams, Chief Executive Officer of Australian Airlines Limited in support of the application, a statutory declaration of Mr Michael O'Neil, Legal Counsel, Industrial Relations for the Association in support of the application, one original copy of the agreement signed on behalf of the parties with five copies.
PN61
I note, your Honour, due to an oversight the original copy of the agreements filed with the Commission was not dated by the parties. My instructions are that the agreement was signed on behalf of the Association on 18 September and Mr McKurdy who is one of the signatories for Australian Airlines is with us. My instructions are that the agreement was signed on behalf of the company on 25 September 2002.
PN62
I haven't had the document resigned but it might be appropriate if the original document that's on the Commission's file be dated by Mr McKurdy as one of the signatories to record the fact that it was made on 25 September 2002.
PN63
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, that probably is a good idea. We'll attend to that now, although identifying the original is, of course, a difficult activity.
PN64
MR OGILVIE: Just one point to note, your Honour, that the term of the agreement which is set out in clause 6 in any event provides that it will operate from 27 September 2002 to 26 October 2003.
PN65
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That may be but the certification only takes effect on the day that I certify it, of course.
PN66
MR OGILVIE: Yes, your Honour, I understand. The agreement can only operate after the certification has taken effect.
PN67
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's right.
PN68
MR OGILVIE: I might proceed while Mr McKurdy is signing that document?
PN69
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, by all means.
PN70
MR OGILVIE: The agreement is made between Australian Airlines Limited and the Association as a Greenfields Agreement pursuant to section 170LL of the act. The agreement is to apply to pilots who are members of or eligible to be members of the Association and employed by Australian Airlines as set out in clause 5.
PN71
It is submitted that pursuant to section 170LL, the single business or part of the single business is a new business that Australian Airlines is establishing when the agreement was made and the agreement was made before the employment of any pilots who will be necessary for the normal operation of the business and whose employment will be subject to the agreement. My instructions are that the relevant pilots are to commence formal employment with the company on Monday next week, 7 October 2002.
PN72
In relation to general matters for certification, the nominal expiry date of the agreement is set out in clause 6 and provides that the agreement will operate until 26 October 2003. There is a disputes procedure for settling disputes between the employer and employees at clause 15 of the agreement.
PN73
In relation to the no disadvantage test, your Honour, Mr O'Neil and I will address the specific matters that have been raised by your Honour prior to these proceedings but we note for the record that the statutory declarations filed in the matter confirm on behalf of those who attested to them that the agreement passes the no disadvantage test in the context of a comparison with the Australian Airlines Pilots Award 2002 and that it was clearly the intention of the parties to ensure the no disadvantage test was made because the two documents were negotiated concurrently.
PN74
In relation to clauses 7.1A and 7.1B of the statutory declarations, your Honour has correctly identified that that award can only be a relevant award for the purposes of the no disadvantage test if it applies immediately before, that is the day before the initial day on which the agreement is made. In the circumstances, the parties request that the Commission orders that the agreement be certified from tomorrow to avoid any confusion with that matter and I understand that was a suggestion.
PN75
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, that's right, that seems to overcome that point. It's a very pedantic point but it seems to be clearly required.
PN76
MR OGILVIE: I think that's right given that the act refers to days rather than the time.
PN77
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Exactly.
PN78
MR OGILVIE: So we would request that the Commission orders the certification from tomorrow, Saturday, 5 October. Other matters that have been drawn to the parties attention, there was a query as to whether as a result of clause 10, which is the no extra claims clause in the agreement, the rates in the agreement were high enough to ensure they don't fall below the minimum rates set out in the award.
PN79
The parties submit that the rates in the agreement have been set to ensure that this doesn't occur. In any event, I refer your Honour to clause 7.3 of the agreement which provides that the fixed remuneration plus any bonus payment made by the company whether provided for under the agreement or not received by pilots in any given year of service with the company measured from the date of appointment as a pilot and each anniversary thereafter will not be less than the total amount that the pilot would be entitled to if paid base salary and superannuation under the award.
PN80
So even in the circumstance which we say would not occur that the award rates would exceed the rates payable under the agreement, the agreement provides that the pilots will be paid a rate as protected by the award. The second point, your Honour, drawn to the parties attention was that clause 11, variations to the agreement is in conflict with section 170MD of the act in relation to variations of a certified agreement.
PN81
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes and clause 16.3 replicates the act.
PN82
MR OGILVIE: Yes, your Honour. There appears to be some ambiguity between the two clauses but in my submission, it was suggested that an undertaking be given by the parties to comply with section 170MD and that undertaking can be given by the company. We also note in any event, clause 16.3 of the agreement covers that position anyway.
PN83
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, but there is a tension between the two clauses. It's something which I suggest could be visited in future agreements.
PN84
MR OGILVIE: Yes, your Honour, I think that would be appropriate. The only other point, your Honour, is that clause is common within the airline industry, at least within the Qantas agreements. The agreement at tab 10 of the materials, your Honour, is the Qantas Airways Limited Flight Crew (Long Haul) Certified Agreement so it's the equivalent agreement with the Association in relation to Qantas pilots.
PN85
Clause 9 which is replicated in those materials, I believe is in the same terms as the proposed clause 11. That's not to say that if it was done incorrectly in the past, means it could be repeated incorrectly now, your Honour, but that is the genesis of the provision.
PN86
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, well, if the undertaking is given, I'm satisfied. My interest is as much in making sure there's no ambiguity in the future as to what's to be done as anything else.
PN87
MR OGILVIE: Yes, your Honour. It's understood by the parties that in order to have any variation to have force, it needs to comply with section 170MD of the act.
PN88
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's right.
PN89
MR OGILVIE: One of the other points that has been drawn to our attention is whether the rate of pay for first officers in clause 29.1 is less than the rate in the award.
PN90
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I withdraw that. On further reading of the agreement, I've realised that I was ascribing under the award the same rate to first officers as to captains and it simply isn't the case. You needn't trouble yourself with that any more.
PN91
MR OGILVIE: Yes, your Honour. The other points that were raised are in relation to the statutory declarations filed by the parties. The first matter is respect to clause 3.5. We note, your Honour is correct that the statutory declaration contains the Australian Airlines' ABN or Australian Business Number rather than the Australian Company Number or ACN.
PN92
If it's any assistance, I can confirm that the ACN for Australian Airlines is the same as the last nine digits of the ABN for -
PN93
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We discovered that when we did our own checking that there's a system that the ABN adds digits, doesn't it?
PN94
MR OGILVIE: Adds two digits to the front of the ACN. It was more of a mistake on my part in preparing the documentation. We note that in any event the Corporations Act actually makes provision for companies to use the ABN on documents in place of the ACN in cases where the last nine digits are identical and in the same order, but if it assists the Commission, the ACN is the last nine digits of the ABN we put on the statutory declaration.
PN95
Your Honour, the parties didn't consider it necessary to identify the industrial dispute as one which falls within clause 5 of the Act given that it can be characterised as a traditional industrial dispute pursuant to section 4 of the Act and would refer back to my submissions made during the dispute finding in this matter.
PN96
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: In any event of course it is a division 2 agreement, it is dependent on the corporations power, so that the stat dec probably is a little bit officious. There is no difficulty anyway, Mr Ogilvie.
PN97
MR OGILVIE: Thank you. If there is no further matters, your Honour, we would seek to have the agreement certified.
PN98
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Mr O'Neil?
PN99
MR O'NEIL: Nothing further.
PN100
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This is an application by Australian Airlines Limited and Australian and International Pilots Association for certification of an agreement made pursuant to section 170LL of the Workplace Relations Act 1996. The agreement is to be known as the Australian Airlines Pilots Enterprise Bargaining Agreement 2002. On the basis of the statutory declarations filed herein and on the submissions and material made and submitted at the hearing I'm satisfied of the Greenfields nature of the agreement, the business is a new business.
PN101
The agreement is made before the employment of any relative employees. The agreement relates to a distinct part of the new business. The organisation, the Australian and International Pilots Association, is entitled to represent the industrial interests of one or more of the persons whose employment is likely to be subject to the agreement. The employer is a constitutional corporation. The application to the Commission was made no later than 21 days after the agreement referred to above was made.
PN102
The agreement satisfies the requirements of the no disadvantage test expressed in section 170XA of the Act, the agreement contains a procedure for preventing and settling disputes between the employer and the employees about matters arising under the agreement. The agreement does not contain provisions which offend Part XA of the Act. The agreement specifies a nominal expiry date of 26 October 2003 which is not more than three years after the agreement comes into operation. The application is granted with effect from the 5 October 2002. Formal certification will issue in due course. That completes these matters this afternoon. I adjourn them indefinitely.
ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [2.42pm]
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