C2002/4931, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 4162 (22 October 2002)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114 MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
DX 305 Melbourne Tel:[phone] Fax:[phone]

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

O/N VT316
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER FOGGO

C2002/4931

MITSUBISHI MOTORS AUSTRALIA LTD

and

AUTOMOTIVE, FOOD, METALS, ENGINEERING,
PRINTING AND KINDRED INDUSTRIES UNION
AND OTHERS

Notifications pursuant to section 99
of the Act of a dispute re development
of a new structure for Trade Leading Hands

MELBOURNE

3.15 PM, TUESDAY, 8 OCTOBER 2002

THIS HEARING WAS CONDUCTED BY VIDEO CONFERENCE
AND RECORDED IN MELBOURNE

PN1

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I note the appearances that have been made for each person but perhaps for the purposes of transcript if you just announce your appearances again please.

PN2

MR R. COLLETT: Yes, thank you, Commissioner. Appearing with me on behalf of Mitsubishi Motors is MR G. COX.

PN3

MR. B. JOHNSTON: I appear for the CEPU.

PN4

MR T. MURRAY: I appear for the AMWU.

PN5

MR J. KANE: I appear for the Australian Workers Union.

PN6

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. As you would have recognised from the listing that you got in relation to this matter, I have been handed this file about four minutes before I went into my last matter so I have had - which is still running next door I might add. I have had no time to go through the documentation which has been supplied by the company. However what I have had brings back some memories but I can't quite remember at this stage whether those memories are good or bad but obviously there is a problem between the parties. Now, what is the problem that the company has that is existing at this time?

PN7

MR COLLETT: Well, thank you, Commissioner, just a brief question, would you prefer us to remain seated?

PN8

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I would, thank you.

PN9

MR COLLETT: Right, thank you, Commissioner. In relation to our enterprise bargaining agreement last year, one of the issues that was included within the enterprise bargaining agreement was the leading hand roles and responsibilities, skills, training, competencies, remuneration, etcetera, in clause 29 of our EBA which I have included in that bunch of documents that have been forwarded to you. It is around about the seventh of eighth document, e-mail 2002, EBA.

PN10

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I have that, thank you.

PN11

MR COLLETT: Well, that was as a consequence of our enterprise bargaining agreement last year, Commissioner, and since that time we have been working collectively with the union in a joint working party to fulfil those constants as outlined in the EBA. Without going into enormous length initially we have reached an impasse in going down that path and that impasse has resulted in the existing situation where all of our trade leading hands have through the union resigned their position as trade leading hands effectively leaving us with no leading hands in the trade roles on our shop floor and the work being delegated by our section managers.

PN12

Also included in the information that has been forwarded to you is a list of a sequence of events of meetings that we have had through the working party, the award specification for the production position of leader trainer and senior leader trainer which is probably what you may already be familiar with. I believe from recollection that you did have some involvement with that hence the potential familiarity and then also the position that was put to all of our trade employees as the company and the working party had developed the role but we do have an impasse on some of the issues in relation to the role and the remuneration level associated with it.

PN13

The resolution from the union that we received following meetings; paid meetings of employees had back to the company that the employees believe that there was too much responsibility and not enough remuneration of the position that had been developed and we had continued to follow a position of comparison against the production structure of leader trainers, senior leader trainers and the company was of the belief that there was consistency in the document being proposed both in responsibility and remuneration levels.

PN14

So we are at a situation as I mentioned, Commissioner, where currently we have no leading hands in our trade areas at all, some 68 leading hands covering 300 odd employees, 300 odd trade employees and obviously we would like that to go back to a situation as normal with the leading hands performing their previous functions and certainly we want to try and resolve this matter. We did meet with the union again this morning and we were able to agree on a position with the only outstanding area being the dollars associated with it.

PN15

The union put a position to us this morning through our working party that they believed a level of remuneration of $150 for a senior leading hand and $80 for a leading hand was appropriate with the roles and responsibilities as we have tabled however we are unable to agree on that. We still believe that the equivalent level of remuneration for the production leading hand - or production leader trainer and senior leader training was appropriate for those responsibilities which is $57.60 and - I will just refer to my notes $115.20

PN16

So I guess we will certainly very keen to resolve it. As I mentioned we met again this morning but we have come to a sticking point once again on the dollars associated with the responsibilities that we have put down in our document.

PN17

THE COMMISSIONER: Have you looked at the relativities in comparison to the other classifications in the structures?

PN18

MR COLLETT: We have looked at the relativity just to the leader trainer and senior leader trainer structures within production, Commissioner, and that is what we have been basing our assumptions on. Also that was mentioned as part of the enterprise bargaining agreement document, it actually says:

PN19

The parties will take into account the process and outcomes in the development and implementation of the production structure relating to leader trainers and senior leader trainers.

PN20

THE COMMISSIONER: Could you just go through those figures again for me, Mr Collett? You have said what the union wants at each of the levels.

PN21

MR COLLETT: Yes.

PN22

THE COMMISSIONER: And what is the company's position in relation to the leading hand first of all?

PN23

MR COLLETT: The leading hand, the company's position is to make that equivalent to the production leader trainer allowance of $57.60.

PN24

THE COMMISSIONER: As against the union's claim of $80?

PN25

MR COLLETT: $80.

PN26

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN27

MR COLLETT: Correct. And in relation to a senior leading hand role, the company's position has been $115.20, which equates to the production senior leader trainer classification and the union's position is $150.

PN28

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, all right. Is that all, Mr Collett?>

PN29

MR COLLETT: I think that sort of gives it to you in a potted summary, Commissioner, thank you.

PN30

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you for that. Mr Johnston.

PN31

MR JOHNSTON: Thank you, Commissioner. Yes, Commissioner, we have met with the company on a number of occasions and the position of the company had been put to our members and they rejected that on two occasions and as late as last Thursday and Friday, the proposal was rejected. We indicated to the company that, this morning, with respect to the dollars. And that is the first time that we have actually raised the issue of dollars, well, perhaps that is true, we indicated to the company that $150 for senior leading hand, $80 for the leading hand, but there would be some retrospectivity which the company actually raised so it would go back to 23 September.

PN32

That the position has always been that the leading hands will resign their positions and re-apply for the senior leading hand and the leading hand and that those people that were successful would be red circled. We put to the company with the money that we put up the roles and responsibilities would stay as tabled. And we also indicated that we wanted to have a review process on a bi-monthly basis because one of the concerns that the members have indicated to us is that with the current roles and responsibilities - and we have put some counter proposals to reviewed and amended positions on the company's offer.

PN33

The position of the members is that it is too broad because there isn't a standard descriptor for leading hands across the site. Now, this is obviously going to fix that up but each department has a different standard that they apply to the current leading hands, as we know them. And some of those leading hands are working in areas that the supervisors would be doing prior to the restructuring of Mitsubishi's, where I think as you are aware that the supervisors no longer exist. Now, with respect to the award definition for production in that definition, if you read it, Commissioner, they made reference to supervisors. There is no supervisors.

PN34

THE COMMISSIONER: Whereabouts is that?

PN35

MR JOHNSTON: That is in the document - the title of What Definition of Production, Leading Trainer and Senior Leading Trainer. But it further goes through the document, namely - - -

PN36

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I have it. Thank you.

PN37

MR JOHNSTON: Yes.

PN38

THE COMMISSIONER: How could that happen?

PN39

MR JOHNSTON: What do you mean, Commissioner, I am sorry?

PN40

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, how could we have these references to a position which no longer exists?

PN41

MR JOHNSTON: That is - that is one of the issues that we have raised. The other issue is, the basis of our argument is that, with respect, if we want to compare the trades to the non-trades and if we want to argue that with the trades there is a technical nature involved in the current leading hands, the company will argue that that is part of their classification structure. The example I gave not long ago to the company was, if you had a tradesperson at a level 3 within their classification structure as a leading hand, how is that person then to give instructions to level 4 or level 5?

PN42

Because what the company said to us this morning was that - I will just check my notes - that the technical skills are covered by the trade classification, the ..... skills - they call it the leadership way. So they are saying that the two that are required under leading hand for a trades person, as built into the classification structure, the leadership or the guidance skills is built into the allowance. We are clearly saying that you can't separate them because there is a technical ..... to trades people to have to perform as a leading hand or perhaps as a senior leading hand so we are at a stalemate with respect to that.

PN43

That offer that we put to the company this morning now that the money has been rejected, that is the $150 and the $80, then the position - and that was put without prejudice because we had no ..... back from the membership to do so but the roles and responsibilities would not be as previously tabled by the company so that they are now an impasse as well. So we would need to - to revisit the roles and responsibilities and the money for this issue to be resolved to the satisfaction of the members.

PN44

So when Mr Collett says that the only outstanding issue is the money that is not actually the case now that that $150 and $80 has been rejected. But as I said, Commissioner, I am doubling a bit but, go back to the definitions of the production workers - they know for every field reference that they go to supervise, well, the trades people - there is no supervisors within the Mitsubishi structure now. They don't have supervisors. So, you know, we can't have - compare apples with apples.

PN45

Goes to the basis of our argument from day one. Mr Collett has also included it in the documentation a number of meetings that I have got to say that has been quite substantial in formal meetings and they were tabled with you. This has been going on for nearly 14 months and we still haven't got resolutions with, but I must say, a statement made by Mr Collett was that the leading hands had resigned from the union. That is certainly the case but all the facts were put to the membership by myself, Mr Murray and Mr Kane on two occasions and as late as last Thursday the position was put to the membership that the company offered to sit down and time frame and try and negotiate and get some sort of settlement.

PN46

The members clearly indicated that they are not prepared to accept that because of the frustration in the 14 months. So this has come about through 14 months of negotiations not reaching agreement. We can certainly, if need be, table some, some revised positions that have been put to the company and we have had meetings with the leading hands in the past where they have actually come up with a revised or an amended document to the document tabled by the company but very clearly the money is not enough according to the members.

PN47

The roles and responsibilities are too broad and this has been raised with the company and what the company is saying is, they don't want to have a definition of a leading hand or a senior leading hand where it is a, b and c and if they go to a leading hand or a senior leading hand and say we want you to do x, y and z, the leading hands can then say well, no that is not part of my job description. Well, they want to have it fairly broad and as I said one of the concerns is that with the current structure of the leading hands under the old scenario there is no defined definitions other than something that we put together in the early stages of the negotiations.

PN48

But that varies from plant to plant. We have some leading hands that perform supervisory roles, other leading hands that don't. So, well, that is what we have asked for this review process. But it has all gone over the place.

PN49

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. All right. Is there anything that Mr Murray or Mr Kane would add in addition to the outline that Mr Johnston has just provided?

PN50

MR MURRAY: Yes, if it pleases the Commission, I guess - only a couple of points. I would agree with everything that has been put to the Commission by Mr Johnston. I guess the only thing I would add is that, as he has indicated, the negotiations have become somewhat frustrated now because they have been going on for some 14 months. I guess what is frustrating our members as well though is that the actual agreement makes reference to this issue being resolved by November 2001 so there is a - basically, I wouldn't say a dampener on it, but reference to November 2001 in the agreement as that being the date that this matter is to be resolved.

PN51

And I guess what has further frustrated the matter also is that, well, one of the matters obviously is still unresolved. What has happened during the period that we have been trying to negotiate an outcome to this is that the old allowances are still being paid. However, because of the demise of the supervisors - that that level of the structure is no longer there, what has actually happened is the old allowance is being paid to the leading hands but they are actually - their actual roles and responsibilities have increased somewhat because they have ..... in a position now while they are still getting paid the old allowance but they are actually working at a higher level, actually carrying out a lot of the functions that the older supervisors used to and there is obviously, you know, no recognisable recompense for that. That is the only thing that I will add, Commissioner.

PN52

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Kane?

PN53

MR KANE: Yes, just briefly, Commissioner, it is - Mr Johnston mentioned the tactical nature of the trade groups and the problem of the industry, in particular Mitsubishi. If you look at the broad definitions in the award that I can point out to you that there is a word supervisor in there. Even if it was another word, they are very broad, very basic definitions participated, required, encourage employees. There are team leaders on the assembly line training people in work groups to assemble vehicles. In the trade groups - you have very technical machinery to work with.

PN54

The senior leading hand - the leading hand would need to be on top of their normal skills, fairly technical, and our argument is that the two allowances should not be the same and it is worth noting that the non trade allowance is not an allowance it is actually a rate of pay. It is actually a rate of pay and once the senior leader trainer or the leader trainer has that rate of pay then they keep that rate of pay.

PN55

Whereas the leading hand in the trade role and the senior leading hand would be an allowance and they could lose their allowance. It is still a leading hand role except that they have incorporated a large majority of the supervisory role into this new leading hand, senior leading hand responsibility and that is a very important issue to us.

PN56

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, when you say that the leading hand is paid at that level by an allowance, how else would it work if you have got someone doing leading hand responsibilities then they would be paid a certain amount if they don't have those responsibilities obviously they don't get the additional amount?

PN57

MR KANE: That is correct, Commissioner.

PN58

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I have failed to understand what you - the point you have just made.

PN59

MR MURRAY: Sorry, I am just - I think the point Mr Kane is making is that in production the allowance is actually part of the base rate it is not a separate allowance that is paid. It actually becomes part of their base rate for all purposes of the award, it becomes part of their salary, so to speak.

PN60

THE COMMISSIONER: I see.

PN61

MR KANE: Yes, that is correct.

PN62

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Well, it sounds as though you have quite a few issues. What does the company want to see arise from today?

PN63

MR COLLETT: Thank you, Commissioner. As I mentioned previously, the first thing we would like to see happen is that the work continues as normal and the leading hands, in their old capacity, continue to work as they have been. Now whilst we try and resolve this through whatever assistance might be available to us. Certainly that is the first desire of the company is that they get back to work and continue as normal. Then I think we are collectively in agreement ..... groups want to resolve this matter but we seem to be stuck, for want of a better term, in relation to their responsibilities and the level of remuneration associated with those.

PN64

THE COMMISSIONER: What is the industrial action that is threatened?

PN65

MR COLLETT: Well, at the moment, Commissioner, we have what we believe is a restriction in place that we have no trade leading hands to undertake the normal process or function of allocating work down at a direct level. Therefore we have Section Managers dealing directly with the employees with no intermediary.

PN66

THE COMMISSIONER: And I take it then that the people who are in the leading hand positions who have resigned, they will go back to base rate without the allowance for the leading hand.

PN67

MR COLLETT: Yes, that is true, Commissioner.

PN68

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. What is the view of the unions in relation to this matter? Is the negotiating process between the company and the unions at an end? We have heard from the company saying, well, they believe they want to move to receiving assistance from the Commission in relation to this matter and the lodgement of the application is proof of that. What is the view of the unions?

PN69

MR JOHNSTON: Commissioner, I think that we are prepared to sit down and negotiate but there has to be some movement in the money because of the issues that we have raised with respect to the technical nature. But if the company are not prepared to consider that then I would say that the negotiations perhaps are at a final stage.

PN70

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Murray, what do you say?

PN71

MR MURRAY: Yes, I would support what Mr Johnston has just said, Commissioner. I think that is probably it in a nutshell.

PN72

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Kane?

PN73

MR KANE: Nothing to add to that.

PN74

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you.

PN75

MR JOHNSTON: Can I just add, Commissioner, that the question you asked Mr Collett, is that the leading hands resigning would not be paid the leading hands rate. That is correct. But they haven't actually ceased the leading hands rates at this stage. They are still paying the leading hands.

PN76

THE COMMISSIONER: Is that correct, Mr Collett?

PN77

MR COLLETT: I have - today is actually the first day that this has taken effect, I believe, Commissioner, and I have had a brief discussion with our pay office this morning - at close of business Monday, being the end of the pay week and try to get the adjustments through for one day of the leading hand allowance with two staff down in the pay office has proven a difficulty for them, this morning. So on a technical aspect, Mr Johnston is correct, but certainly as soon as it can be rectified the employees are no longer fulfilling the function and therefore not entitled to the allowance.

PN78

MR JOHNSTON: Well, I have got add, Commissioner, that, if I can - that the effect of the leading hand resigning actually took effect as early as Saturday morning - because the last meeting was held at 2.30 on Friday afternoon. So it was the first available shift after that meeting that the leading hands have actually resigned their positions as leading hands. But the argument that we put up, Commissioner, ..... want to discuss it but we don't believe that the leading hands resigning is an industrial dispute.

PN79

They are appointed as leading hands - - -

PN80

THE COMMISSIONER: It raises some interesting issues which unfortunately this medium is very difficult to spend time going through those issues. Apart from the fact that my associate is still doing film making and editing one and keep taking you in and out of focus - but she is a lot better than she was. In fact - - -

PN81

MR JOHNSTON: I would suggest that we all look better from a distance anyway.

PN82

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - You said that, I didn't. All right, well, what - yes, I mean if - the problem is that Munro J is unwell. I think it is probably the first time in his life. I am sure it had nothing to do with this file. What I would like to do - obviously there needs to be some assistance and some meetings with the parties as a matter of some urgency. I think the best thing is that I will contact him tomorrow and will get back to the parties. He may have some time or be prepared to go to Adelaide. If not, I am not in Adelaide for another couple of weeks and are unable to be there prior to that.

PN83

So this is not a satisfactory outcome by any means but I would ask your patience so that one of us can get back to you tomorrow. Now in the interim the fact that the effect of the leading hands resignations only taking effect today - does the company - is the company in a position to understand what that will mean over the next few days? I suppose - that is a rather clumsy way of saying, do you foresee some immediate problems in the Section Managers allocating the work as against the leading hands continuing to carry out that role?

PN84

MR COLLETT: At the moment, Commissioner, I believe we are operating successfully but precisely how long that will last, I don't know. Depending on what issues arise.

PN85

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Are there any occupational health and safety issues that immediately arise?

PN86

MR COLLETT: I don't believe there should be, Commissioner. I don't know from the rest of the group here, some of whom are the senior shop stewards representing the shop floor, whether they feel there is an issue. Perhaps we could just ask for their comment as well.

PN87

THE COMMISSIONER: I can't see why there would be but I don't want to have this holding position if there is any chance of their being occupational health and safety issues immediately arising.

PN88

MR COLLETT: The consensus here, Commissioner, is that there should not be occupational health and safety issues arising.

PN89

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you.

PN90

MR MURRAY: Sorry, Commissioner, we do have quite a number of active occupational health and safety reps on the job as well and I am sure that if there was - they would raise those.

PN91

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you. That is reassuring. All right as I indicated, Munro J or I will advise the parties tomorrow of our availability. The second issue, on hearing what the parties have said, I understand the concern that has arisen if this issue has been going on now for 14 months. That any process, as major as this, working at the - operating through a working party which is looking at the leading hands, their roles and responsibilities, levels of remuneration and associated matters is likely to take some time.

PN92

But given that there was a nominal time frame which has stated November 2001 and here we are almost a year later with the issues not resolved then I can understand why the levels of frustration have arisen. However, this issue has not been before the Commissioner previously, has it?

PN93

MR COLLETT: No, Commissioner.

PN94

THE COMMISSIONER: No.

PN95

MR COLLETT: If I could just - - -

PN96

THE COMMISSIONER: Just let me finish, Mr Collett. Well, in that circumstance I think that we will ask people to be patient for just a little bit longer. I understand the situation as it currently is that there has been a resignation. Mr Johnston has quite rightly raised the issue that if the company is saying that is industrial action then whether it is industrial action needs to be tested. Now we are just not in a position to be able to do that now. But as I say, until I contact Munro J then I can't give you an availability of further conciliation hearings before the Commission.

PN97

I take the union's view, albeit I will take it as a preliminary view because I asked you that, whilst you believe that the conciliation may be at an end between the parties that, that also is an issue which may need to be tested. Now this is a most unsatisfactory outcome to a proceeding but the parties will be advised through contact or a statement tomorrow, the role that the Commission is available to play. Is there anything else?

PN98

MR COLLETT: I was just going to make that point before, Commissioner, that you will probably remember that we did have some difficult in our enterprise bargaining process last year and the agreement actually didn't come into force until 13 November last year. So we have been behind the eight ball from the start in relation to this issue. Probably the dates should have been amended in line with the final certification of the agreement last year. So - - -

PN99

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, but didn't you want a continuation of those agreements just to run on?

PN100

MR COLLETT: Yes.

PN101

THE COMMISSIONER: In terms of the years.

PN102

MR COLLETT: Yes.

PN103

THE COMMISSIONER: I understand that. I understand that. All right the parties will be contacted tomorrow. In the meantime if there is anything else then you could contact my associate or myself. I can't imagine that there will be but if you need to go back into discussions again then obviously you have been doing that until now and you will continue to do it. Mr Johnston, just clarify for me if you would, it has been agreed between all the parties in their submissions that the discussions occurred again this morning.

PN104

MR JOHNSTON: Yes.

PN105

THE COMMISSIONER: As recently as this morning. Have the outcomes of those discussions been reported back to the members?

PN106

MR JOHNSTON: No, Commissioner.

PN107

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. When did you anticipate that would happen?

PN108

MR JOHNSTON: Well, we haven't anticipated doing that at this stage. The company indicated this morning that they would come back with a response - - -

PN109

MR COLLETT: Which we - - -

PN110

MR JOHNSTON: - - - just prior to coming into the Commission and we are also obviously awaiting the Commission hearing today so we can report back as early as possibly tomorrow, maybe Thursday.

PN111

THE COMMISSIONER: It might be useful for you to hold off so that you are in a position to be able to advise your members what is going to happen with the Commissioner.

PN112

MR JOHNSTON: Yes, we had no intent of reporting back at this stage, Commissioner.

PN113

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. All right. Thank you. All right. I don't know what it is about the vehicle companies - the majors at the moment. Holden, Mitsubishi - you all seem to be having a few problems but I daresay it is nothing that we can't get over.

PN114

MR MURRAY: ..... Holdens.

PN115

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. We will be in touch with further information tomorrow. Thank you for your attendance.

PN116

MR COLLETT: Thank you, Commissioner.

PN117

MR JOHNSTON: Commissioner, will there be a transcript ordered for this matter today?

PN118

THE COMMISSIONER: Who asked that?

PN119

MR JOHNSTON: I did. Mr Johnston.

PN120

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I didn't see you. Yes, there will be, because obviously I want to provide a copy to Munro J, so that can be sent to the parties.

PN121

MR JOHNSTON: Thank you, Commissioner.

PN122

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Okay.

PN123

MR COLLETT: Thank you, again.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [3.51pm]