C2002/5055, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 4341 (6 November 2002)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114J MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
DX 305 Melbourne Tel:[phone] Fax:[phone]

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N VT10008
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT WATSON

C2002/5055

QANTAS AIRWAYS LIMITED

and

TRANSPORT WORKERS UNION
OF AUSTRALIA

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of an industrial dispute re wildcat industrial
actions by members of the TWU employed by Qantas
at Melbourne Airport in Ramp Services operations

MELBOURNE

2.07 PM, THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2002

PN1

MR G. SMITH: I seek leave to appear with Qantas; with me is MR D. DURBAN, who is the Ramp Services Manager, and MR G. EISENMENGER, who is the Manager, Melbourne Airport.

PN2

MR W. MADER: I appear for the Transport Workers Union. Whilst I am on my feet, I think I ought to indicate to the Commission that we would oppose the appearance of a counsel. I guess the circumstances are somewhat confusing. I just, as I walked into the Commission, found some of the material relevant to this matter and I am just simply not sure that a counsel would assist in this matter.

PN3

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, very well. Mr Smith, how do you wish to proceed? Is it your intention to go into conference reasonably quickly?

PN4

MR SMITH: Your Honour, I thought the appropriate method would be to simply put some basic facts on the record and then proceed into conference and try and sort the matter out.

PN5

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN6

MR SMITH: Ultimately, there may need to be some directions made by the Commission if we can't sort the matter out, but I was hopeful that we could do so in conference.

PN7

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, very well. Mr Mader, is there any objection to leave being granted to Mr Smith for the purpose of putting those matters on the record and then we can adjourn into conference, reserving your rights as to objection to leave in respect to any subsequent proceedings?

PN8

MR MADER: Well, I would just simply say that our objection is on the table.

PN9

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN10

MR MADER: The difficulty is that I have really got no information whatsoever to what is going on. I have just been handed a moment ago what I am told is a notice that has been issued which has got some details with it. I have managed to quickly peruse it. I am not quite sure what proceeding with the hearing might achieve nor what the company is actually seeking, your Honour.

PN11

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, given the course of action proposed, what I will do is grant you leave provisionally, Mr Smith, for the purpose of putting those matters on the record, that is reserving your right to oppose leave if the matter resumes in public hearing, on the understanding that the company's intention is to adjourn into conference quickly. That might assist you in at least getting Qantas's perspective of the facts and then we can go into conference and see what follows from there. Very well.

PN12

MR MADER: Thank you, your Honour.

PN13

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Mr Smith.

PN14

MR SMITH: Thank you, your Honour. Your Honour, essentially this is a dispute between Qantas and the union and the union representatives and employees at the ramp, Melbourne Airport. It concerns training being provided to part-time employees and that training concerns the pushing back of aircraft from the ramp. Your Honour, the background to this dispute is fairly succinctly set out in a notice that was published by the company this morning and I believe was put on notice boards at around 9 am this morning.

PN15

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And that is attached to the notification of dispute.

PN16

MR SMITH: I believe it is, but I will perhaps just make sure we are talking to the same document.

PN17

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, very well.

PN18

MR SMITH: I have already given Mr Mader a copy earlier.

PN19

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It appears to be the same document.

EXHIBIT #QF1 NOTICE PUBLISHED BY QANTAS RE BACKGROUND TO DISPUTE

PN20

MR SMITH: Your Honour, I don't know if you have had an opportunity to read that.

PN21

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I have had an opportunity to read it, so it is not necessary to read it to me.

PN22

MR SMITH: I am sorry, your Honour?

PN23

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I have had an opportunity to read it, so - - -

PN24

MR SMITH: Thank you. Well, in summary then, it is our position that based on the background set out in that document that there was a clear understanding prior to today that there was an agreement reached in relation to push back training. That agreement had been reached with Mr Panzitta, and that the training could continue. There didn't need to be any further negotiations because an agreement had been struck. Now, those negotiations that led up to the agreement went for some four months, so it wasn't just two days sit down and reach an agreement, your Honour, it was four months of negotiations leading to an agreement.

PN25

Now, what appears to have happened after that is that Mr Panzitta went on annual leave, the training commenced today and - I am sorry - yesterday the training commenced, and from our perspective there appears to be a number of employees who either were unaware that this agreement had been reached or simply disagreed with the fact that there was an agreement and weren't prepared to comply with it.

PN26

That has resulted in a number of things happening. Firstly, this morning at 9.20 this morning work ceased and we were advised that there would be no further work, we were to cease the training and the union would be happy to sit down with us and talk about coming up with an agreement. We said, well, okay, you provide a skeleton crew. They said no, no skeleton crew at all either. We said we would continue with the training because the agreement had been struck. They said they needed to report back to their members. They came back and said that they had talked to their staff and work ceased again at 11.35. I should have said that in the meantime some work continued between 10 am and 11.35.

PN27

Work ceased again at 11.35 to 1200 hours, again no skeleton staff was provided. Staff returned about 12, said that they would sit in the lunch room, no further work until the person on the training ceased their shift. That person ceased their shift at 1 o'clock, 1300 hours. Employees have returned to work and I understand are working normally. However, as you can appreciate, your Honour, there was massive disruption at the airport this morning. Many, many flights of domestic and international flights were interfered with and many passengers interfered with and, of course, loss and damage suffered by the company.

PN28

The trainee concerned does not return until Sunday, so his training resumes again on Sunday, and it is Qantas's plan that that training should continue and he will resume on Sunday. Why do we say that we are not prepared to cease the training, your Honour? Firstly, of course, we say we had an agreement with Mr Panzitta and, quite frankly, I think that is almost undeniable and if we need to, we can speak with Mr Durban who can testify to that.

PN29

Secondly, there is a dispute settlement process in both our certified agreement and our award that has not been followed; in fact, no attempt to follow it has been made. And thirdly, on my instructions, the training which is being conducted is essential, it is needed to train part-time personnel because of the northern winter change, and the time line is critical. So we are not prepared to cease this training, although we are prepared to enter into discussions with the union and with the employees in accordance with the dispute settlement process.

PN30

If we are unable resolve the issue today with Mr Mader, and that does seem likely, we would certainly be seeking some directions from the Commission that there be no industrial action taken in respect of this matter and that the matter be resolved in accordance with the dispute settlement process. Now, we are happy to establish such a process under the auspices of this Commission. If the Commission pleases.

PN31

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you for that. Mr Mader, do you wish to put anything on record or simply go into conference at this stage?

PN32

MR MADER: No, your Honour, I think I should say a couple of things in relation to this. I guess that - I notice that the company has handed up a notice to ramp staff that is dated today and was posted at 9 am. Now, I have heard what Mr Smith has said in relation to there being an agreement, but all I can see here is that the company has said that they have an agreement, that that agreement is with F. Panzitta, that is Frank Panzitta, and Frank is the union delegate on the site, but I have got nothing in front of me that indicates that this is any more than their interpretation of what might exist, so I am at a distinct disadvantage over that.

PN33

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN34

MR MADER: I am not sure, your Honour, what the extent of the training activity that they are talking about is and I guess we may be able to establish some of that in conference, but all I have heard is that they are saying that they have some training program in force; how many people, to what extent and where it is going to I am not sure, and I think that is probably relevant given that there appears to be a significant difference of opinion as to whether an agreement exists and whether that agreement, if it does exist, has been endorsed by the membership in the workplace.

PN35

The other thing, your Honour, I think I would like to draw to your attention is that these matters relative to permanent part-time employment, the work that they do, etcetera, is contained in an enterprise agreement that came into place in 1996.

PN36

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Which is incorporated into the current agreement.

PN37

MR MADER: Yes, your Honour, that is correct, it has continued to carry over into subsequent enterprise agreements.

PN38

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN39

MR MADER: There is a Heads of Agreement, your Honour, in that document and I am hoping that your Honour may have it because all I have got with me is one copy. I would imagine that the - - -

PN40

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't have the '96 agreement, I have the more recent one, but you go on.

PN41

MR MADER: Yes, your Honour. Well, I could perhaps hand this up after I have spoken to it, but the Heads of Agreement sets out principles and arrangements and sets out a mechanism to deal with the introduction of permanent part-time employment and the activity and work that the permanent part-time employees would be involved with. It is essentially through a joint local monitoring committee to - and I can read this, your Honour:

PN42

(a) Whether the introduction of part-time addresses the problem of efficiency, meeting the schedule and/or handling the peaks and troughs ...(reads)... Existing full-timers on shift will have the opportunity for overtime prior to part-timers.

PN43

Now, your Honour, the document goes on dealing with a range of other issues, but I guess what I am concerned about at this point in time as to whether that level of activity has actually occurred and occurred in a way where people have been properly involved and, I guess, adopted or endorsed outcomes. Now, I am extremely surprised, your Honour, that we have got a situation where the company is saying quite categorically, and I guess I am not in a position to dispute this because I have not had any opportunity speak to Frank Panzitta that an agreement exists.

PN44

On the other hand, it appears that there is a large group of TWU members in this area who are saying, I guess, and again I haven't had any opportunity to talk directly with them, but I am just taking up what Mr Smith has said, is that they don't acknowledge that an agreement exists or that a process has been adopted. Your Honour, I am happy to see where we may go in a conference. I can indicate that I am all for resolving the issue, but I am not satisfied that it is as simple as has been set out by Qantas.

PN45

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well. Anything else, Mr Smith?

PN46

MR SMITH: No, your Honour.

PN47

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well. I will adjourn into conference.

NO FURTHER PROCEEDINGS RECORDED

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #QF1 NOTICE PUBLISHED BY QANTAS RE BACKGROUND TO DISPUTE PN20