AG2002/333, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 4558 (15 November 2002)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 2, 16 St George's Tce, PERTH WA 6000
Tel:[phone] Fax:[phone]

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

O/N WT05573
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT LACY

AG2002/333

APPLICATION FOR VARIATION OF
CERTIFIED AGREEMENT

Application under section 170MD(2) of the Act
by Chubb Protective Services for variation
of the Chubb Security Australia Pty Ltd -
Perth Airport Agreement 2002

PERTH

9.33 AM, WEDNESDAY, 30 OCTOBER 2002

Continued from 29.10.02

PN215

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good morning. No change in appearances? First of all, Mr Welch, do you have the list of names?

PN216

MR WELCH: Senior Deputy President, yes indeed, I do. I've got copies of those lists. Overnight I've been able to also get statements from four of the five individuals whom we identified or who are identified as part of the list. I've also been able to get a statement from a further person who was not actually identified and we have been able to bring one of the individuals who has given the statement as a witness if it will be acceptable to the Commission to deal with their evidence because we are concerned to deal with this question of whether there is doubt about the validity of the majority in relation to this ballot.

PN217

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, but the difficulty is - I mean, if the individual themselves are not here to give evidence and be subjected to cross-examination then I don't see how I can accept the evidence.

PN218

MR WELCH: The problem we have, Senior Deputy President, is that these individuals obviously are rostered for work. It is not easy for them to be available for the Commission. We say that the onus in terms of showing that there is no doubt about the valid majority rests with the applicant in this matter for the variation and we are saying that these individuals have been willing to provide us with these letters.

PN219

One of them has come in today as they are not working, to be able to provide evidence and they can give evidence to corroborate some of what Mr Lawrence has said in relation to having dialogues with other individuals which we hope would go to showing some doubt. So we would seek to tender them. We accept that they can't be cross-examined and that therefore less weight would be given to them but it all that we can do practically to bring to the Commission's attention the concerns of these individuals.

PN220

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The company would have had to release them to come to give evidence if you had notified the company you wanted them here to give evidence?

PN221

MR WELCH: I think the difficulty we had was that yesterday we had the list of individuals, unfortunately I only as I indicated, picked up carriage of the case at the last moment. We have sought to get information from the individuals. It seemed to us that a security firm with rostering arrangements particularly in the area of the airport would find it difficult in the middle of, as it were, yesterday evening when we were able to clarify the situation with the individuals to re-organise the roster. Now I'm happy if subsequent to this the company is willing to provide them as witnesses. But unfortunately there is nothing that I can practically do to speed that process at this stage.

PN222

We simply sought to provide the most valuable evidence that we could at this point in the most practical way, recognising the difficulties for all the parties concerned. And as I say, the onus is on the applicant in this matter to show that the valid majority was correctly obtained. Moreover, as I indicated I am able to proffer one of these individuals as a witness and I would ask that they be able to be called if I'm unable to provide the statements on behalf of the other individuals.

PN223

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, perhaps let me have a look at the names of the individuals at this stage. Thank you.

PN224

MR WELCH: Sorry, if I can as well, Senior Deputy President, I apologise. I had referred to a number of cases yesterday and I have got copies of those cases which I should really have dealt with first as I began. If I can hand those to your associate for the record?

PN225

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN226

MR WELCH: They are the three cases I referred to with reference to the right to intervene in relation to 43(1).

PN227

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, of course, I've made my ruling on that. You are only providing those to me by way of completeness, are you?

PN228

MR WELCH: Yes, indeed.

PN229

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The statutory declaration of Mr Sullivan. As was pointed out yesterday by Mr Uphill, in effect, acknowledges there was one person who didn't vote because of the 40 employees - sorry, two, there were 38 votes recorded. That means that two didn't vote. You say there was another two. Well, that wouldn't change the result in any event, would it?

PN230

MR WELCH: Well, Senior Deputy President, if I put it this way. We call into question the numbers that have been declared for the result. If there is a lack of clarity about the way in which the result was obtained then surely one must question the process and the integrity of the process as a whole. If they say that 38 - sorry, we understood they had said 39 individuals and we understood from the representations made by Mr Uphill yesterday that 39 people were referred to at point 5 in the statutory declarations, have been sent ballot papers and that 38 had voted. But irrespective of whether it is 40 or whether it is 39, the issue is that they say that a set number of ballot papers were sent out, a set number were received.

PN231

If those numbers cannot be correlated then there is clearly something incorrect about the process of the ballot. We say that yes, it could potentially have an impact in that if there are five individuals and we were seeking to tender a further statement on behalf of a sixth individual today, who claim that the ballot was not correctly run, those six individuals could have an impact on the outcome of the ballot. Frankly, if you add five to 17 then clearly that could have an impact as you could - if you add six. Therefore the additional number of ballot papers that we say should not have been included could have impacted on the vote. It could have changed the valid majority and therefore clearly it is material and we say that the Commission has to be convinced and sure that there is no doubt about the valid majority.

PN232

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, the document that you have given to me which is an e-mail from Ron Lawrence to Simone - - -

PN233

MR WELCH: Simone Northcott is another of our industrial staff. I believe she will be appearing before you later today.

EXHIBIT #ALHMU5 E-MAIL FROM MR RON LAWRENCE TO MS SIMONE NORTHCOTT

PN234

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That identifies for me five names which includes as I understand it, four of the people who were mentioned yesterday by Mr Lawrence. Is that right?

PN235

MR WELCH: Yes. Mr Lawrence wasn't able to provide all of the names yesterday by way of cross-examination and indicated that he had provided us with an e-mail. This e-mail is merely the e-mail he referred to in his cross-examination which identifies all of the names.

PN236

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right.

PN237

MR WELCH: We would wish to call one of those individuals, Mr Andrew Caterall who is here today as a witness to the process. As I say, we still do press the request to tender in evidence the statements from the other individuals. That may be a matter that the Senior Deputy President needs to consider.

PN238

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Why didn't you issue summonses for those people?

PN239

MR WELCH: Simply, Senior Deputy President, a matter of speed and practicality. When the matter was being dealt with yesterday we had assumed that the matter would be resolved yesterday and therefore it was only subsequent to the matter yesterday that we sought to move forward as getting - - -

PN240

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But the matter had been resolved yesterday it would have been resolved against you because you didn't - - -

PN241

MR WELCH: Well, we had hopes that the question of the doubt that we say does exist would have led the Commission to not certify the agreement because the question is about certainty in the mind of the Commission that there was a valid majority.

PN242

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But you can't merely raise a suspicion about some imperfection in the process and then rely on that. I mean - - -

PN243

MR WELCH: We brought a witness we say yesterday, Senior Deputy President, in Mr Lawrence. We brought him as evidence to the dialogue that he had had with other individuals that the process had not had integrity and there were problems with the balloting process.

PN244

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But the evidence under the rules of evidence would not have been admissible?

PN245

MR WELCH: Well, we say that the evidence that we subsequently have sought to bring, and we are happy that if the Commission chooses so to do, that we subpoena the individuals and we ask the company that they be allowed to attend and provide witness evidence.

PN246

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But we can't go on forever and a day.

PN247

MR WELCH: I understand that, Senior Deputy President, but the difficulty that we have is that yesterday afternoon we were left in a situation where the company was rightly under cross-examination challenging the evidence that was being given by Mr Lawrence. We've sought to provide some supplementary evidence by way of calling Mr Catterall as a witness because he is available today and not rostered and we would seek to have him given evidence. We have got statements on behalf of individuals and we are happy to at the earliest possible opportunity have those people called as witnesses.

PN248

But there are practical issues and I'm sure the company would accept that there are practical issues in taking five people who may well be rostered at very short notice to come and appear. I'm happy if the company is happy to accede to that but we simply thought to do this in the most efficient and effective way for all of the parties concerned. If the Commission feels that it is more appropriate then it is clearly within the Commission's power to call these individuals as witnesses.

PN249

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, let me hear what Mr Uphill has to say about it.

PN250

MR UPHILL: Your Honour, we have no difficulty with Mr Andrew Catterall giving evidence here this morning. We think that is the way that the matter should be handled, in that if there are employees who wish to put views before the Commission then that needs to be done by way of their evidence. It should not be done by way of statements that can't be cross-examined. Likewise, as you've pointed out there are ways that people can be made available to attend the Commission to give that evidence. The union is aware of that procedure and notwithstanding the attempt to explain why that hadn't been done it really is not a valid explanation as to why witnesses are not present to give evidence to the Commission.

PN251

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, what I will do is I will hear Mr Catterall now and I will stand the matter over until 12.30 to allow you the opportunity to call the other people if you are going to call them. But 12.30 will be it. You call whatever evidence you want to call by 12.30 and if you have no further evidence that will be the close of your case. If you wish to call further evidence then I will hear the evidence then.

PN252

MR WELCH: Senior Deputy President, that being so, can we ask of the company that if these individuals are currently rostered and working that they be allowed to attend for the purposes of giving evidence. Because clearly without that capacity then it is somewhat difficult.

PN253

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I can ask Mr Uphill. Mr Uphill, is Marie Ingles working at the moment? Rostered at 12.30 to day?

PN254

MR UPHILL: Marie Ingles?

PN255

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN256

MR UPHILL: Sir, we would have to find out.

PN257

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you have a list of names, do you?

PN258

MR UPHILL: I've got the list of the five people that the union has indicated.

PN259

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, well in the event that they are rostered at 12.30 would the company be prepared to release them to come here to give evidence?

PN260

MR UPHILL: We would need to check and see what duties they are performing to see whether they can be released. I don't know what the operational requirements are, whether they are at work today or whether they are not at work today. If they are not at work then arguably Mr Fitch ought to be able to, with assistance from other members of the union, perhaps arrange for those people to be here. But in terms of whether those people are working well we need to make some inquiries to see if they can be released without affecting the operations.

PN261

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Sorry, did you want to say something else?

PN262

MR UPHILL: That is about the best response we can give at this stage.

PN263

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right. Mr Welch?

PN264

MR WELCH: Thank you, Senior Deputy President. I'm advised that one of the individuals is currently on leave but we are trying to contact him and I believe we were trying to contact him yesterday anyway. So we will seek to resolve that matter and we will do our best as is physically possible to bring people recognising that if we are unable to have them attend by 12.30 that we will not be able to tender them as evidence. If I then move on to call Mr Catterall as a witness?

PN265

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, please. Thank you.

<ANDREW CATTERALL, SWORN [9.48am]

<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WELCH

PN266

MR WELCH: Good morning, Mr Catterall?---Good morning.

PN267

For the benefit of the Commission, can you give your name and address, please?---Andrew Catterall of 169 Knutsford Avenue in Rivervale.

PN268

Can you explain what your current employment situation is?---Security officer at the Perth Domestic Airport.

PN269

And you are employed by whom?---Chubb Security.

PN270

Okay. Have you any recollection of the ballot that took place with reference to the proposed variation?---Yes.

PN271

Can you for the benefit of the Commission, give a recollection of the events that transpired?---My recollection was there was just - the ballot came out in relation to - I had only been there a couple of weeks, it came out in relation to - - -

PN272

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, Mr Catterall, I will have to ask you to keep your voice up. I can't hear what you are saying?---Oh, okay. Yes, I've - as far as I knew we got sent out a ballot paper. I read the ballot paper to be just an understanding of changing of the agreement that I had previously signed just a couple of weeks before. Yes, and just that.

PN273

MR WELCH: Were there any meetings about the process?---Well, it ended up, it had Mr Steve Sullivan come in one time to - if any questions were wanted to be asked about the ballot and that is about - any communication other than the letter that I received.

**** ANDREW CATTERALL XN MR WELCH

PN274

And did anybody talk to you individually?---Yes, I was spoken to by a senior at the - one of the seniors there. Her name is Lesley Kotis. She took myself and another employee into the office and briefly said that the vote that we had was - we voted no, there was a no vote went ahead that we - that Chubb Security, she was authorised by Chubb to say this, that they wouldn't - they would delay all negotiations with the unions, that we wouldn't get anything for three to five years. If we had - get the yes vote that we'll get something straight away otherwise don't expect to get anything from them as such.

PN275

And did you make a decision as to whether you would vote?---Well, that sort of took to me, why bother voting when it was sort of basically: if you don't get that we're not going to give you anything. So I sort of felt that their best interest wasn't for me so I wasn't going to be - take part in what they were going to put to us.

PN276

Did you vote?---No.

PN277

Have you had any dialogue with any other employee about the balloting process?---I spoke to Marie - can't think of her last name actually.

PN278

Would it be Marie Ingles?---That would be her, yes. And she said that - she confirmed to me that she - I mentioned to her that I hadn't voted due to I wasn't overly happy with it and she said to me that - - -

PN279

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I mean, that is not going to get much more weight than Mr Lawrence's statement about that.

PN280

MR WELCH: We are simply trying to get to the point that Ms Ingles has had the conversation with more than one individual, no more than that.

PN281

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It doesn't carry it any further than Mr Lawrence's evidence.

**** ANDREW CATTERALL XN MR WELCH

PN282

MR WELCH: Okay.

PN283

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I've got no reason to doubt what Mr Lawrence told me was what he was told so I say it takes it no further.

PN284

MR WELCH: Thank you, Senior Deputy President.

PN285

Were you a casual employee?---Yes.

PN286

Were other casual employees to the best of your knowledge, allowed to vote in the process?---Yes.

PN287

Okay. Were any of them, to the best of your knowledge, relatively recent employees?---Yes.

PN288

Okay. I don't have any further questions, Senior Deputy President. Thank you very much?---Thank you.

PN289

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Welch. Mr Uphill.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR UPHILL [9.52am]

PN290

MR UPHILL: So, Mr Catterall, you decided not to put in a vote?---Yes.

PN291

And you said that you believe that some casuals who recently commenced were included in the vote?---Yes.

PN292

Do you know when they started with the company at the airport?---I think Jason started - Jason and Glen started the week after me, I think.

**** ANDREW CATTERALL XXN MR UPHILL

PN293

And when did you start?---About the 19th of August.

PN294

Okay. So these people started in August?---Yes, they would have been August as well.

PN295

Okay. And they were entitled to vote, weren't they?---Well, we were sent ballot papers in with the letter and everything with that, yes.

PN296

Well, they were employed by the company in September, weren't they?---They may have come from another section of Chubb, I'm not sure. I've noticed that lately we get some other security officers from other departments.

PN297

Okay. But they were employees of Chubb?---Yes.

PN298

You say they commenced at the end of August. So in September they were employees of Chubb?---That's correct.

PN299

And were entitled to vote?---That's correct.

PN300

Yes, okay. No further questions.

PN301

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Any re-examination, Mr Welch?

PN302

MR WELCH: No further re-examination, Senior Deputy President.

PN303

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Welch. Thank you for your evidence, Mr Catterall, you are excused.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [9.53am]

PN304

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is there anything we can do profitably at the moment in this matter or - - -

PN305

MR UPHILL: Yes, your Honour. I think there is the question of the actual ballot papers that you asked be made available this morning.

PN306

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. And is there anyone to give evidence about what steps were taken to ensure the integrity of it?

PN307

MR UPHILL: Yes. I think it is probably appropriate that Mr Sullivan give that evidence and we can introduce the ballot papers through his evidence.

PN308

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, okay. Thank you very much.

<STEPHEN JOHN SULLIVAN, SWORN [9.54am]

<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR UPHILL

PN309

MR UPHILL: Mr Sullivan, you've given the Commission your residential address?---Yes, that's correct.

PN310

And can you tell the Commission your position with the company. State General Manager of Chubb Guard Services, sir, for Western Australia and East Timor.

PN311

And how long have you held that position?---My current role, I've been in Western Australia since 1998, with the company 14 years but in Western Australia 1998.

PN312

Okay. Can you tell the Commission how the ballot papers were conveyed to employees?---Yes. I don't know the exact date but it was by mail on a Monday.

PN313

So by mail they received the ballot papers?---That's correct.

PN314

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that internal mail or postal?---Postal to their home addresses.

PN315

Yes, all right.

PN316

MR UPHILL: And how did you determine who was eligible to vote?---Whoever worked at the airport, it didn't matter whether it was full-time, part-time or casual, at the Perth Domestic Airport as well as the freight terminal which is two separate sites. But they do similar screening duties, they're paid the same as - - -

PN317

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And the agreement covers that whole area?---That's correct, sir.

**** STEPHEN JOHN SULLIVAN XN MR UPHILL

PN318

MR UPHILL: Can you tell the Commission how many ballot papers were posted out?---There was 40, sir.

PN319

And how as the actual voting process undertaken? How did people put their ballot paper in to be registered as a vote?---All right. I'll take a step back. There was a meeting on the Friday prior to he ballots going out on the Monday in the mail. I then arranged three further meetings to clarify any questions that the security officers had on the site. With that feedback there was, I believe you already stated yesterday, with that feedback there was a couple of undertakings given to them in writing. That's in relation to the increases and one of the clauses, that was an undertaking in regards to this matter. After that around - in the start of October the ballot box was placed at the airport. It wasn't the Monday because the Monday was a public holiday so it was at the airport for the Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. And the reason for that was because it's a rotation roster at the airport to make sure we capture all the employees.

PN320

So the ballot box was located at the airport?---That's correct.

PN321

For employees to - - -?---In the supervisors' office. That's correct.

PN322

Okay. And what happened at the end of that week?---On Thursday, late Thursday afternoon I believe it was, I picked - I was in the office at the time but it was picked up by one of my operations people. I was contacted by the supervisor at that time advising us that there was one person either away or on annual leave, that a postal vote was coming in with his or her ballot paper. On the next day on the Friday, we waited for the mail to come in. We took out that vote and made it part of - we opened up the ballot box, made that part of the vote and we - I counted the votes personally in front of my personal assistant, yes.

PN323

And when did that take place? On Friday, what time?---I know the time because I wrote it down, it was 1410.

**** STEPHEN JOHN SULLIVAN XN MR UPHILL

PN324

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: On the Friday?---That's correct, sir. And it was purely to wait for the mail, sir.

PN325

Sorry?---It was purely to wait for that mail.

PN326

Righto?---For the morning mail on the Friday.

PN327

MR UPHILL: Can I ask the witness be shown some documents. Mr Sullivan, can you identify the first page of that bundle of documents that has been handed to you?---The first page is the memo. that I sent out to all staff advising them of the vote being 21 yes and 17 no. And that was sent out on 4 October.

PN328

And what is contained at the back of that - - - ?---The actual - - -

PN329

- - - first page?---The first page is the actual vote count. On the front of that is my handwriting:

PN330

Counted S. Sullivan. 1410 on the 4th of the 10th. Witnessed by Natarzha Green

PN331

My PA.

PN332

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Witnessed by who?---Natarzha Green, sir. She is my personal assistant.

PN333

Sorry, how do you spell her last name?---Natarzha. N-a-t - - -

PN334

Yes, I can spell Natasha. How do you - - - ?---Sorry. Green. Green.

**** STEPHEN JOHN SULLIVAN XN MR UPHILL

PN335

Green?---Green, as in the colour, sir. And Natarzha is spelt with a Z, sir, not a - - -

PN336

Righto. Well, I couldn't spell Natasha. I am sorry?---That is why - - -

PN337

MR UPHILL: Mr Sullivan, were there any postal votes included in the ballot?---There was one. There was one received and that was a no vote.

PN338

Right. And were there any late votes that were included in the ballot?---No, that was it.

PN339

Were there any late votes included in the ballot?---No, there was only the postal vote. That is correct.

PN340

Right, okay.

PN341

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are you going to tender the bundle of documents?

PN342

MR UPHILL: Yes, I will. It might be an appropriate time. I haven't got a copy of those documents but - - -

PN343

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Perhaps Mr Welch should have a look at them before - - -

PN344

MR WELCH: Thank you.

PN345

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just while that is happening, Mr Sullivan, could I just ask, with the ballot papers, there is a copy of it filed in the proceedings as an attachment to your - - - ?---That is correct, sir.

**** STEPHEN JOHN SULLIVAN XN MR UPHILL

PN346

- - - statutory declaration. Who devised the ballot paper? Was it you?---No, it was actually a - through CCI, sir.

PN347

Right?---Yes.

PN348

I see. Is there any reason why a number couldn't be put on them or some means of identification to ensure that - well, I suppose they could still be photocopied, couldn't they?---I suppose hindsight is a wonderful thing, sir. But I suppose if you numbered the documents, there could be an inference back to the company saying, well, we know who voted yes and we know who voted no. So, it wouldn't be a - - -

PN349

But if they are handed out randomly?---Well, I suppose, yes.

PN350

I mean - - - ?---Another thought, again hindsight. Another thought, we could set up a register as the - next to the box and as the person comes in and votes - - -

PN351

They sign off?---- - - they could sign off on it. We are not - I suppose the company wasn't used to this size of the vote either. Normally it is four to five people on a particular site. Not 40. So, it is unique for us.

EXHIBIT #CHUBB1 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS

PN352

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And that includes the letter of 4 October from Mr Sullivan to all screening staff, Perth, at freight terminals and the count of the ballot as signed by Mr Sullivan and witnessed by Natarzha Green. Yes? Go on. Sorry, Mr Uphill.

**** STEPHEN JOHN SULLIVAN XN MR UPHILL

PN353

MR UPHILL: Mr Sullivan, the union has suggested that there were five people who did not vote and you heard Mr Catterall say that he was one of those five people that didn't vote. The list, ALHMWU5, indicates that Matt Billsborough did not vote. Do you have any explanation as to why he didn't vote?---We just checked our - Mr Uphill, we just checked our list and he wasn't actually on the original list. I don't know the reason for that. He might have started after that date. I really don't know. But he wasn't on the original list so - - -

PN354

So, you are saying, he didn't receive a ballot paper?---Well, that is - if he wasn't on that list, he wouldn't have received one. That is correct, sir.

PN355

Right. Okay. Mr Sullivan, you heard Mr Catterall's evidence that Leslie Kotis, I think - his evidence was - made some comments about what would happen if there was a no vote. Do you have any knowledge about what was discussed between Leslie Kotis and employees?---No, I don't.

PN356

Right?---However, having said that, there was a phone conversation from Jenny Testar who rang me advising me - I don't know - I don't recall the date. I took file notes in regards to that conversation and I advised her at the time Mrs Kotis had no direction from the company in relation to what is claimed. And the second thing is, I put it down to just guards talking between guards at a particular site, which I can't stop. So - - -

PN357

Thank you. No further questions?---No worries. Thank you.

PN358

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Sullivan, two of the ballot papers are stamped "copy" and the others are all stamped "original". Do you know why two of them are stamped copy?---On the Wednesday or Thursday while the ballot box was still at the airport, I had a brief conversation with Nicky Cullen, the supervisor. She advised me that a couple of people had actually lost their votes. I advised, well, I suppose the easiest way is just to put in a copy. At least I - when the votes come in, I would then know that they are off those two particular people. So, that is the reason why they were counted in the vote, sir.

**** STEPHEN JOHN SULLIVAN XN MR UPHILL

PN359

Did she tell you who the two particular people were?---No, no, she didn't. It was just in passing. A passing conversation.

PN360

All right. Any cross-examination?

PN361

MR WELCH: Thank you, Senior Deputy President.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WELCH [10.06am]

PN362

MR WELCH: Good morning, Mr Sullivan?---Thank you.

PN363

If I could ask you a couple of questions in reference to the evidence that you have given. Mr Uphill asked you whether any late votes were counted, did he not?---Yes, that is correct.

PN364

And you gave evidence that they were not counted?---That is correct.

PN365

Were there any late votes?---Are you talking about postal votes, sir, or - - -

PN366

Yes, that came in subsequent to the counting of the ballot?---No, no, there wouldn't be, no.

PN367

So, there weren't any?---That is correct.

PN368

With reference to the undertakings that you say were given in the process, you referred to a meeting that took place. What - - - ?---There were - there was actually four, in total, meetings.

**** STEPHEN JOHN SULLIVAN XXN MR WELCH

PN369

Four meetings. Okay?---Yes, yes.

PN370

What were the undertakings that were given?---What do you mean by undertakings? Do you mean by explaining the process?

PN371

Yes. You referred in your evidence, as I understood it, as - something I wasn't aware of. That undertakings had been given to the staff as part of the process. What were those?---Sorry. The further undertakings? There was two. That was changing - if I had it in front of me I could actually point it out.

PN372

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Perhaps I can assist you.

PN373

THE WITNESS: It was the changing of - off the top of my head, it was the changing from the 3.5 per cent increase to the 4 per cent increase. And the second part of it was a clause in relation to no strike action. What I did was, by memo. to the airport, added - I don't know the exact wording. But it said:

PN374

No strike action unless you refer to the conflict resolution procedure in the current Perth Airport agreement.

PN375

MR WELCH: Okay. So, were staff provided with a further agreement with the proposed changes in it?---No. The memo. was sent out to the airport giving that undertaking. I took advice from CCI, advising me that that was not necessary and it could still - - -

PN376

And do those undertakings form part of the agreement as it is proposed to vary it?---

PN377

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: They will when I get round to asking him to give the undertaking.

**** STEPHEN JOHN SULLIVAN XXN MR WELCH

PN378

MR WELCH: Okay.

PN379

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: They have been notified.

PN380

MR WELCH: Okay.

PN381

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But I haven't asked for those undertakings yet.

PN382

MR WELCH: Okay. The reason I simply ask you, Senior Deputy President, we weren't aware of any documentary on it but if the - because obviously we - - -

PN383

THE WITNESS: It certainly was sent to the airport.

PN384

MR WELCH: Okay?---You can have my assurance on that.

PN385

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Perhaps Mr Welch could be shown this document.

PN386

THE WITNESS: There was actually two memos.

PN387

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There is attachment 4 which has got another attachment to it. And then attachment 5.

PN388

MR WELCH: Yes, we have got a copy of this.

**** STEPHEN JOHN SULLIVAN XXN MR WELCH

PN389

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And the part that - - -

PN390

MR WELCH: It deals specifically though with the dispute resolution clause, if I remember rightly.

PN391

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. The part that is in bold type will form the undertaking, as I understand it, but that will be in its application - - -

PN392

MR WELCH: That is correct. I am talking about the proposal to change the application from 3.5 per cent to 4 per cent.

PN393

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, if you turn over two pages, you will see - no, the next page.

PN394

MR WELCH: I understand now. Thank you very much.

PN395

THE WITNESS: And also it states in that memo. that the three - well, one of them, it states in - that the future three meetings that I was going out to the airport to explain it further to - - -

PN396

MR WELCH: Okay. Mr Uphill asked you about the evidence given by Mr Catterall about the meeting he had with Ms Kotis, I think it is?---Yes.

PN397

Is that correct?---Yes, that is correct.

PN398

Could you explain what the role of Ms Kotis is at the airport?---Leslie Kotis is one of the shift seniors at the airport. Yes. Shift senior. Yes, yes.

**** STEPHEN JOHN SULLIVAN XXN MR WELCH

PN399

So, were you concerned at the - - -

MOBILE PHONE INTERRUPTION

PN400

MR WELCH: I apologise for the brief hiatus. I can safely say it wasn't planned.

PN401

Can I ask, were you concerned by the evidence given by Mr Catterall as to what he was told by Ms Kotis?---Was I concerned? I would be concerned in relation to a staff member stating that it was authorised by the office. That would be my only concern.

PN402

And would it concern you that a senior supervisor talking to junior staff about the ballot would give a view of such a forthright nature about the company's views?---I wasn't there to hear what was actually said. So, based on what the gentleman said, I suppose, yes, I would be. But I would have to hear it myself.

PN403

And Mr Testar did indicate to you that this occurred for other individuals as well?---Yes, through a phone conversation. That is correct.

PN404

Okay. So, it is possible, I put it no more strongly than that, that Ms Kotis talked to a number of staff and put very considerable pressure on them, claiming to act on behalf of the company?---It is possible.

PN405

Okay. With reference to the ballot, can I ask, looking at the ballot form itself, how would you have known if somebody had voted more than once?---Don't.

PN406

So, you have no mechanism for knowing whether anybody voted more than once?---No.

**** STEPHEN JOHN SULLIVAN XXN MR WELCH

PN407

Would it be possible to copy the ballot paper and vote more than once?---I suppose anything is possible in this day and age. I suppose it is possible to go buy an original stamp and press a few. I don't know.

PN408

Wouldn't it have been possible for the company to quite simply initial or mark the ballot papers in some way to clearly identify them as originals so it couldn't be changed?---Originally, are you talking about?

PN409

Yes. When they were sent out to people?---Yes, I suppose - as I said before, hindsight is a wonderful thing. But, yes.

PN410

Okay. I put it to you that at least five individuals have claimed they didn't vote and that that would, therefore, call into question the validity of the vote. How would you react to that?---Well, I can't react anything to that. That is up to them to make that statement. I know I put my statement in in regards to what I have seen so - - -

PN411

So, you don't accept that the individuals didn't vote?---I didn't say I don't accept it. I said I don't have any comment in regards to it. They are entitled to what they say.

PN412

Okay. If you just bear with me, Senior Deputy President, while I check my notes.

PN413

Would it be fair to say that the evidence that you are giving is really about the counting of the ballot papers? You were there to count them and you were able to authorise that they were correctly counted?---Yes, that is correct.

PN414

Okay. So, you are not able to really say whether - - - ?---No.

**** STEPHEN JOHN SULLIVAN XXN MR WELCH

PN415

- - - or not the ballot was correctly carried out in the practical terms on the days that they took place. You weren't there?---No, I wasn't there.

PN416

Okay. Thank you very much. I don't have any further questions.

PN417

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Welch. Mr Sullivan, are you the person who can give the undertakings on behalf of the company?---Yes, sir. Yes, I am.

PN418

All right. Well, do you now undertake that Chubb will increase each of the wage rises from 3 and a half per cent to 4 per cent in the course of the agreement?---Yes, sir.

PN419

And that that will be as a matter of implementation and application part of the agreement?---Yes, that is correct, sir.

PN420

And do you also undertake that in terms of its implementation and application, the agreement, insofar as it includes clause 11.1(b), will include the words:

PN421

Without following the dispute handling procedure set down in clause 8 of the agreement

PN422

?---That is correct, sir. Yes, I will.

PN423

All right. Is there anything arising out of that?

PN424

MR WELCH: Sorry, Senior Deputy President?

**** STEPHEN JOHN SULLIVAN XXN MR WELCH

PN425

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is there anything arising out of that?

PN426

MR WELCH: No.

PN427

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Those undertakings. I intended asking them. It is not, as I say, to be read as indicating any final conclusive view but the undertakings would have to be given and at the end of the day Mr Sullivan may not be here to give those at 12.30 so I might as well get them now. Thank you, Mr Sullivan?---Thank you.

PN428

You are excused.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [10.15am]

PN429

MR WELCH: If I may, Senior Deputy President, we have been able to identify that three of the individuals on our list of witnesses are currently working. If we could provide the - - -

PN430

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So, is this to do with Mr Sullivan?

PN431

MR WELCH: No, it is not, sorry.

PN432

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No.

PN433

MR WELCH: Sorry. I do apologise.

PN434

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, sorry, go on, Mr Welch.

PN435

MR WELCH: We have been able to identify that three of the individuals are currently on shift and we would ask that the company - - -

PN436

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Who are they?

PN437

MR WELCH: They are, as I understand it, Russell Quartermaine. Sorry, no. If I can just - go to the dots. Right. Russell Quartermaine, Matt Billsborough and Graham Steadman. Graham Steadman is the individual who we were going to tender as a further sixth witness today. Witness statement. But unfortunately - or accepting what the Senior Deputy President has said, we are unable to do that so we wish to call him as a witness instead.

PN438

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN439

MR UPHILL: Your Honour, only in response to those names, we say that Matt Billsborough was not entitled to vote. We believe that he was either not employed at the airport or started of recent times. So, if that - - -

PN440

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Subsequent to the ballot?

PN441

MR UPHILL: Yes, subsequent to the ballots being posted out to people. If that is so, then clearly - - -

PN442

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN443

MR UPHILL: There is probably no need for him to give evidence, I wouldn't imagine.

PN444

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, it won't carry any weight. What about Mr Quartermaine and - who was the other one you said, Mr - - -

PN445

MR WELCH: Mr Steadman. He appears on the list of names of staff working at the airport as a ballot. He wasn't identified originally by Mr Lawrence but has subsequently indicated that he didn't vote and we would wish to call him, therefore, as a witness.

PN446

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Mr Uphill, what about Mr Quartermaine and Mr Steadman?

PN447

MR UPHILL: Your Honour, we need to make some phone calls to see if those people can be released. If I can have a moment.

PN448

MR SULLIVAN: It is too little notice to release screening staff, sir. It is quite - it is a very - it is not like it is a - - -

PN449

MR UPHILL: Your Honour, there is some difficulty with - - -

PN450

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, do the best you can and if they can't be released, then I will have to perhaps look at whether or not I accept their statements and depending on what they say, the weight that should be given to those. All right. Is there anything else we can do now at this stage? Perhaps we had better not delay the other matter.

PN451

MR UPHILL: Yes.

PN452

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I will adjourn this matter until 12.30 and we will now commence the other matter immediately.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [10.18am]

RESUMED [1.10pm]

PN453

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No change in appearances in this matter? By the way, I will just go off the record for a minute.

OFF THE RECORD [1.11pm]

RESUMED [1.11pm]

PN454

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, Mr Welch?

PN455

MR WELCH: I thank you, too, Deputy President. I have had some discussion with Mr Uphill with reference to Mr Billsborough who the company claim was not eligible to vote. And we have indicated we are happy not to press any suggestion that he should have voted, as long as the company provide to the Commission a list of the people who were entitled to vote. And we have agreed that that is an appropriate way forward on that matter. And I know that Mr Uphill is prepared to do so. With reference to the other witnesses, we have two further witnesses to call. We had a third witness, Mr Steadman, who did attend this morning but, unfortunately, the company were unable to replace him.

PN456

So, although he was earlier today and he actually was sitting in the back for some time in the last case, he is unable to attend now as a witness because the company required him to return to work. We have two further witnesses, however, the first of which, if I can call Ms Marie Ingles.

<MARIE INGLES, SWORN [1.12pm]

<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WELCH

PN457

MR WELCH: Good morning, Ms Ingles. I am just going to ask you a couple of questions. For the benefit of the Commission, can you give your name and address?---Again?

PN458

Yes?---Mrs Marie Ingles. 130a Stretnam Street, Beckenham.

PN459

Okay. Can you identify what your job is currently?---I work at the airport.

PN460

Can I ask who you work for?---Passenger search.

PN461

Are you currently employed by Chubb?---Yes.

PN462

Were you aware of a ballot that took place in relation to the proposed agreement or variation?---Aware? I do not - - -

PN463

Okay. Did you receive any materials recently or in the last month from Chubb with reference to an agreement?---I receive by post.

PN464

That you received?---By post.

PN465

What did you receive by post?---The ballot paper.

PN466

You received the ballot paper. What was the ballot paper about?---Something to do with a raise.

PN467

Okay. And did you return that ballot paper?---No.

**** MARIE INGLES XN MR WELCH

PN468

Did you vote?---No.

PN469

What did you do with the ballot paper?---I misplaced it. I was on holiday. And I misplaced it. I don't know.

PN470

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, I can't hear you, Ms Ingles. What did you say? You were on holidays and what?---I misplaced it.

PN471

You misplaced it.

PN472

MR WELCH: So, you are quite clear you didn't vote?---No.

PN473

I don't have any further questions for Ms Ingles.

PN474

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Mr Uphill?

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR UPHILL [1.15pm]

PN475

MR UPHILL: Ms Ingles, you are absolutely clear that you didn't vote? You didn't put in a ballot slip?---No, I didn't vote.

PN476

Did you ask anyone else to do that for you?---

PN477

So, what did you do with the ballot slip?---I misplaced it or thrown it in the bin. I don't know where I have put it. I didn't vote at all.

PN478

Thank you. No further questions.

**** MARIE INGLES XXN MR UPHILL

PN479

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Sorry, do you - - -

PN480

MR WELCH: No further re-examination. Thank you very much.

PN481

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you for our evidence, Ms Ingles. You are excused.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [1.15pm]

PN482

MR WELCH: If I can now call Mr Russell Quartermaine.

<RUSSELL QUARTERMAINE, SWORN [1.16pm]

<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WELCH

PN483

MR WELCH: Okay. I won't ask you your address again if you have already given it but can I ask you what your current employment is?---I work with the security guard at Perth Airport on the screening point.

PN484

And who employs you?---Chubb.

PN485

Were you aware of a ballot that recently took place with reference to a variation to an agreement?---Yes, I am.

PN486

Could you explain your recollections of the ballot?---I received the ballot form in the post. And did not fill it in and did not hand it in.

PN487

So, you did not vote?---No, I did not.

PN488

Are you aware of any meetings that took place in the run-up to the ballot?---Not as such, meetings. But confrontations, yes.

PN489

Could you explain what you mean by that?---Had a Leslie Kotis come down and speak to us, informing us that it would be in our best option for us to vote, yes.

PN490

And how did you feel about what she said to you?---Quite intimidated by the way that she was speaking.

PN491

When she said it was in your best interest, did she give an explanation as to why?---She also said that she had been at the airport for many years and nothing had happened with the union giving rises. It was all Chubb's doing. That is about it.

**** RUSSELL QUARTERMAINE XN MR WELCH

PN492

Okay. You are quite clear, though, that you didn't send in any ballot paper?---Quite clear.

PN493

You didn't go into the office to vote?---No.

PN494

Okay. I don't have any further questions for this witness. Thank you very much.

PN495

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Welch. Yes, Mr Uphill?

PN496

MR UPHILL: Thank you, your Honour.

<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR UPHILL [1.18pm]

PN497

MR UPHILL: Mr Quartermaine, you are employed in a full time or a part time capacity?---Permanent part time.

PN498

Part time. And you say you didn't fill in or return a ballot form?---No, I didn't.

PN499

Okay. If you had of wished to return a ballot form, is there any way that you believe you could be prevented from voting not once but twice?---I don't understand the question, sorry.

PN500

Okay. Did people explain to you how you would put in a ballot form? Where it would be deposited?---Yes.

PN501

And where was that?---It was in a ballot box which was in the office at the airport.

**** RUSSELL QUARTERMAINE XXN MR UPHILL

PN502

And was there any scrutiny as to how many times a person was able to put in a ballot form?---No.

PN503

Okay. Did you attend meetings with the union about the proposed agreement and discuss the terms of the agreement?---No, I did not.

PN504

You didn't?---No.

PN505

Okay. Thank you. No further questions.

PN506

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Quartermaine, what did you do with your ballot paper?---It is still at home.

PN507

It is still at home?---Yes.

PN508

All right. I will just ask you to have a look at this document. Is that the same as the ballot paper you received?---Yes, it is.

PN509

Yes. And that is the one that is still at home?---Yes.

PN510

Yes. Thank you. Any re-examination, Mr Welch?

PN511

MR WELCH: No further questions, thank you.

PN512

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you for your evidence, Mr Quartermaine. You are excused.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [1.21pm]

PN513

MR WELCH: We don't have any further witnesses to call, as I indicated previously, your Honour.

PN514

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right. And, Mr Uphill, are you going to provide me with some confirmation or do you confirm in some way or will confirm in some way that Mr Billsborough is not entitled to vote? Is that the case?

PN515

MR UPHILL: Yes, I will, your Honour. It was my intention when these proceedings conclude. In fact, to get your Associate to perhaps do a photocopy of those people who were eligible to vote and in fact were sent ballot forms.

PN516

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right. Make three copies. Is there anything else you wanted to say, Mr Uphill, at this stage about the matter?

PN517

MR UPHILL: There is not a lot, your Honour, other than - from the company's perspective, we have put the view that there were two people that we believe did not vote. Of the 40, there were 21 who voted yes and 17 who voted no, making a total of 38. So, we put the view that there were two who did not vote. The evidence, of course, is that Marie Ingles, Russell Quartermaine and Andrew Catterall, three people, did not vote. We are quite frankly at a loss to explain the difference. But I observe that the process of conducting the ballot was such that unfortunately there was no control over whether people voted once but twice or three times or whether people in the yes category put in additional votes or the no category put in additional votes.

PN518

There is just no way of knowing, unfortunately, given the process that occurred, which of the alternative scenarios occurred. But what is clear, I think, is that there is two arguably on the evidence three people who did not vote. The question arises, does it make a difference to the end result? And given that there was a valid majority but a valid majority of 50 per cent plus one, it certainly does lead to some doubt about the confidence of the result. We are not in a position to explain that, other than to say this is a most unusual situation. It is unfortunate that, with hindsight, perhaps some procedures might otherwise be put in place. But that is something we will deal with in the future.

PN519

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Did Mr Welch get a copy of this?

PN520

MR WELCH: Yes.

PN521

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, Mr Uphill, I was going to ask you a question. If I did come to the conclusion that I was not satisfied that there was sufficient confidence in the validity of the vote, I mean, what would be the mechanics of doing the process again, only this time doing with the two extra terms included in it? Just be a matter of issuing new ballot papers and - - -

PN522

MR WELCH: I would need to think about how we might do it differently.

PN523

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Is there a cost involved? Apart from photocopy and - - -

PN524

MR UPHILL: There is not a substantial cost involved but there is the issue of what approach the company might wish to take in future.

PN525

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I haven't made up my mind about it.

PN526

MR UPHILL: No, I appreciate that.

PN527

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I need to review the evidence and look at it in more detail.

PN528

MR UPHILL: And I am not sure what approach we would want to put in place. But we will obviously consider that on the basis of what decision you make in the matter.

PN529

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you again, Mr Uphill. Anything else, Mr Welch?

PN530

MR WELCH: Simply to say, your Honour, that we would argue that the evidence of the three individuals who have come before the Commission to indicate that they haven't voted clearly go to cast considerable doubt over the integrity of the process. We say that while there is no requirement for a secret ballot, once a secret ballot is entered into, to ensure a valid majority, then surely, one, the Commission needs to be sure that the integrity of the ballot is clear. Because without any integrity in the ballot, it won't be clear whether it is indeed a valid majority or not. And we say that if in fact three individuals out of 40 ballot papers were sent out did not vote, we have witness evidence to that effect, then it is impossible the 38 were put in the ballot box unless another party put an extra ballot paper in the box.

PN531

It is simply impossible to conceive of another circumstance leading to that being so. And if one, why not two or three or five? Now, unfortunately, we haven't been able to bring witness evidence on behalf of other individuals who say that they are in the same situation. And that is clearly understood. We were willing to provide statements but we accept that that is not acceptable for the Commission. So, we simply say that it is clear that the ballot process doesn't have integrity. We say that it is clear, therefore, that there isn't a clear valid majority and that the Commission should not certify on that basis.

PN532

There was also the question raised by two of the witnesses of the way in which the matter was discussed with them by an employee of the company purporting to be on behalf of the company and whether or not that indeed led to some level of intimidation or coercion. But that hadn't been a matter that I had been conscious of prior to the cross-examination myself. But we say that for those reasons and for the other question we raised in relation to the process that the Commission should not certify this agreement or this variation. Thank you.

PN533

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Welch. Anything else, Mr Uphill?

PN534

MR UPHILL: No.

EXHIBIT #CHUBB2 LIST OF EMPLOYEES

PN535

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well. I will reserve my decision in the matter. Hopefully I will get something out next week either way and the parties will know where they stand on that matter. If there is nothing else in that matter, then I will adjourn this matter and convene a conference in the previous matter. So, we won't leave the hearing room. The matter is adjourned.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [1.28pm]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #ALHMU5 E-MAIL FROM MR RON LAWRENCE TO MS SIMONE NORTHCOTT PN234
ANDREW CATTERALL, SWORN PN266
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WELCH PN266
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR UPHILL PN290
WITNESS WITHDREW PN304
STEPHEN JOHN SULLIVAN, SWORN PN309
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR UPHILL PN309
EXHIBIT #CHUBB1 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS PN352
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WELCH PN362
WITNESS WITHDREW PN429
MARIE INGLES, SWORN PN457
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WELCH PN457
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR UPHILL PN475
WITNESS WITHDREW PN482
RUSSELL QUARTERMAINE, SWORN PN483
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WELCH PN483
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR UPHILL PN497
WITNESS WITHDREW PN513
EXHIBIT #CHUBB2 LIST OF EMPLOYEES PN535