C2002/5332, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 4616 (15 November 2002)

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER RAFFAELLI

C2002/5332

AUTOMOTIVE, FOOD, METALS,
ENGINEERING, PRINTING AND KINDRED
INDUSTRIES UNION

and

QANTAS AIRWAYS

Notification pursuant to Section 99 of the
Act of a dispute re alleged failure to comply
with award obligations by contractors

SYDNEY

3.04 PM, MONDAY, 4 NOVEMBER 2002

PN1

THE COMMISSIONER: Could I have appearances please?

PN2

MR T. AYRES: If the Commission please I appear on behalf of the AMWU.

PN3

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Ayres.

PN4

MR D. MILLS: May it please the Commission I appear for Qantas with MR P. FENLEY who also is with Qantas.

PN5

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Yes, Mr Ayres, it is your notification.

PN6

MR AYRES: Commissioner, thank you for listing this matter so quickly. The AMWU has received a number of reports over the last couple of weeks in relation to the adherence of award agreement and statutory obligations of contractors engaged by Qantas largely performing maintenance in Qantas' property maintenance area; Qantas' ground service equipment area; and their airport ground service equipment area which is located in the International Terminal.

PN7

Having received those reports and there has been a growth in the number of contractors engaged by Qantas to perform this sort of work, for a variety of reasons that have been set out to the unions by Qantas. Following on from receiving those reports we identified two of the companies that Qantas has engaged. A company called Australian Overhaulers Group and a company called Sinta Engineering and Maintenance.

PN8

We served both of those companies with time and wage book inspections and sought the following records. We sought time and wage records; monthly group tax stamps; monthly superannuation records; workers compensation records; and a list containing the names, addresses and classifications of workers employed by both those companies. We are entitled under the Act - I haven't brought a copy here with me but I see Mr Mills has - we are entitled under the Act to inspect those records with I think 24 hours notice, Commissioner, but we gave both of those companies a little over three days to comply with the inspection notices.

PN9

When we appeared at the premises of both companies - and Qantas has almost a tent city of contractors' offices set-up on its premises at Mascot - one of the contractors was a no show. I wandered around their offices for five minutes. I knocked on every door that there was but there was either nobody behind the door or they were under the desk and they hadn't appeared despite having a very clear - and this is a company that is well versed in evading wage book inspection requirements. The second company when we met with them provided a list of employees and workers compensation records and only the subsequent day provided a big pile of paperwork that it says are its time and wage records and we've yet to have somebody in our office go through those.

PN10

Could I just say we are very concerned about the first company. We are even more concerned - the records that we have inspected one of the companies workers compensation currency certificate outlines that there is a - if I could just explain Commissioner. There is a Workcover Industry Code that each company has to identify when it sets up its workers compensation account. The Workcover Industry Code sets the level of premium. If you are engaged in the fishing industry then the premium is about 14 per cent, if you're an official in a trade union the premium is about 1 per cent. It is all dependent on the level of risk. This area that these people are working in is not an area without risk. It is metal maintenance, transport equipment maintenance. In fact a member of the AMWU was killed in that area two years ago.

PN11

This company has as its Workcover Industry Code international air transport which is the code which is relevant for international airline hostesses. It is a clear breach - and it is not a matter within the jurisdiction of this Commission - but a clear breach of that company's obligations under the New South Wales Workers Compensation Act. On the basis of that there are quite significant penalties for a breach of that provision. An employer may be required to pay double the premium that would have been payable if they have provided false or misleading information. The current penalty under the Act at this stage is $11,000. It is a serious breach of that company's workers compensation obligations and that is a matter that we will pursue with workcover.

PN12

What it indicates to us is that more work needs to be done in relation to contractors at Qantas in terms of making sure that they adhere to their award, their agreement and their statutory obligations. What we are proposing - if I could just hand up, this is a very rough draft recommendation, Commissioner. I usually get someone to do them for me but I had to do it on the typewriter on Friday night. What we are seeking is a recommendation that allows the AMWU in a systematic way to get a list of all of the contractors engaged by Qantas performing this work. And for Qantas to facilitate us having a proper inspection of all of those records. It is not an unusual arrangement for the head contractor to facilitate wage book inspections of the smaller contractor companies. But in this respect, Commissioner, we are concerned that there may be further breaches.

PN13

One of these companies advised me that they had only been in existence for three months and had provided, as I said, wage book records for three months. But I have been subsequently advised that that company had another name three months ago and was engaged by Qantas performing exactly the same work. I have got some concerns about that companies obligations over a longer period of time. Without Qantas' assistance in facilitating these inspections and allowing us to, for example, cross-reference the lists of employees that are provided to us by the contractors with Qantas' induction list to establish who is employed by who it will be very difficult for us to ensure that these smaller companies are complying with their award and statutory obligations.

PN14

I think what we propose is a sensible way forward. Qantas can speak for themselves in relation tot he proposed recommendation but I certainly don't think that there is anything that prevents Qantas from assisting the AMWU to ensure that these people don't continue to operate on the fringes of the maintenance industry. If the Commission pleases.

PN15

THE COMMISSIONER: I'll mark your documents in at AMWU1.

EXHIBIT #AMWU1 DRAFT RECOMMENDATION FROM AMWU

PN16

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Mills?

PN17

MR MILLS: Yes, thank you, Commissioner. The AMWU find themselves in a very difficult situation, because what they are actually asking the Commission to do by either making application is for the Commission to determine that there is in effect an industrial dispute between the parties and quite clearly there can't be any industrial dispute between the AMWU and Qantas in relation to companies and workers to which Qantas has no relationship with other than a purely commercial arrangement with the contractual company.

PN18

Qantas does not employ the individuals who Mr Ayres represents and therefore is not bound by any of the terms and conditions of the agreements to which one would assume these employees operate under given the agreement with their employer and therefore we in a sense are sitting outside of that. So I make these preliminary remarks on the basis of where this matter may go and that is that we would object and oppose to any dispute being found. There is no dispute between the company and the AMWU at all in relation to this matter because these employees are not employees of Qantas and therefore we have no relationship upon which a dispute could be found.

PN19

If it was to go any further, we would reserve our right to make an application under section 111 to have the matter dismissed on the basis it is not in the public interest for the Commission to hear a matter about a dispute to which the company who the union brings the dispute against, is not the employer or that labourer, be it directly or indirectly. So I reserve the position in relation to that because I don't really believe that is what Mr Ayres is going to, in the long term, seek to facilitate.

PN20

Nor am I going to get into any particular argument about the fact that this is a matter that may have been best addressed by Mr Ayres directly approaching the company. Mr Ayres has made an application and it is incumbent upon me as a representative of the company to respond to what he's put to you. I note the draft recommendation and I think the company clearly acknowledges a couple of things that the union does have rights, and I think that this is where a unique situation exists with Qantas.

PN21

And that is, the union does have a right under section 285(b), to enter the premises upon which the employer carries out the work to investigate any suspected breaches. It's incumbent upon the union to be able to identify to that employer that there is the belief that such a breach occurs and in my understanding and experience within industrial relations, it's not particularly difficult at times to determine that there may in fact be a suspected breach. We would be happy to have some discussions with Mr Ayres about how we can assist him in facilitating his access to those sites on the basis that it's quite well known that to get access on to any Qantas engineering and maintenance facility, you basically have to identify your mother's maiden name give up your license to be able to get yourself on to the base due to the significant security requirements that exist. We are happy to talk to Mr Ayres about how we can make that a little bit easier for him.

PN22

In relation to this draft recommendation, there is a lot in there that we would not agree to at all. However, what we would be prepared to do is to have a discussion with Mr Ayres about giving him a list of who the contractors are and we see this on this basis, not because we necessarily want to assist in any way the union having access to contractors that we have a commercial arrangement with and who we have an obviously an ongoing relationship with - we are not in the role at all of policing the way in which these people manage their employees. We have certain requirements and one of those requirements quite clearly is that they must have a Workers Compensation certificate of currency and that is what is required as an initial step in any relationship that we may have.

PN23

However, our employees are entitled to know who and what company is performing work in and around them. We do not have any problems with that - we've got no problems identifying who the contractors are, because we believe that that's the type of relationship that any one of our employees is entitled to know. Therefore, Mr Ayres, who represents the interests of some of our employees, on behalf of those employees has a right to ask us who those contractors are and we would be happy to facilitate that process.

PN24

Other than that, we are not interested in any other aspect of it. That's the responsibility for Mr Ayres. Once we have provided the list and had a off-line discussion about access, the rest is up to Mr Ayres. Other than that the company has no responsibility whatsoever in this matter. The only other comment I would make before Mr Ayres may wish to rebut what I have just said or respond to what I have just said, is that the company does reserve its right. Should the applicant in this case choose to have the matter - would wish to continue these proceedings before the Commission, the company reserves its right to challenge the fact that an industrial dispute exists, if it exists at all.

PN25

Secondly, in the event the Commission determines that there is an industrial dispute, then the company will certainly want to reserve its right in relation to section 111.

PN26

May it please the Commission.

PN27

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Ayres?

PN28

MR AYRES: Commissioner, I will just address the jurisdictional point first. I know Mr Mills has reserved his position in relation to that issue. I am pretty confident that we can join the dots in terms of the jurisdictional issue. I would like to deal with the issue on a more practical basis but I can say that we are going to report to a meeting of Qantas property employees, Qantas GSE employees sometime through next week about this matter. It's of some concern to those workers that there are people on the fringes of the maintenance industry doing work that is traditionally their work. It's a matter of some concern to them.

PN29

In terms of the practical points. Mr Mills is correct in terms of the rights, although I think the rights are a little more extensive in terms of our capacity to enter premises to inspect records and so on. I think Qantas has a much larger responsibility in relation to these contractors than they make out. I think they know that they've got a much larger responsibility than they make out. Qantas provides premises for these contractors, they are set up on Qantas's area of operation, that is the base of their operations, although I understand some of them operate in some of other areas through Sydney, but they operate from their base at Qantas's Mascot facility.

PN30

If the picture of all of these contractors is the same as the picture that we've managed to discover so far, Qantas has a section of work on its equipment being performed by people who are outside of the law and that has go to be a matter of some concern to Qantas. If Qantas is going to firstly pursue a jurisdictional objection and then hinder the attempts by the AMWU to exercise its rights in terms of these people, that's one thing, but Qantas has a larger obligation to make sure that these sorts of breaches don't occur and so far throughout the whole period of this extension of contracting out, no steps have been taken by Qantas management to ensure that these sort of breaches aren't occurring.

PN31

Could I say, Commissioner, this draft recommendation is an attempt by the AMWU to make sure that this process happens in a way that is not only most efficient but least disruptive. There are other ways of the AMWU making sure that we pursue these contractors and ensure that they comply by their obligations. We would reserve our right to do that, but we are trying to set up a process here that allows in a timely way these contractors to provide all of their records and for Qantas to insist to these contractors that they comply with the provisions of the Act and provide all of these records, not on one day.

PN32

The AMWU takes copies of the records and we do the work that perhaps Qantas should properly have done and ensure that these people aren't ripping people off, that they are paying their superannuation, that they have got current certificates of Workers Compensation and that they are abiding by the Act in all of the other regards. So, Commissioner, we can go outside of this process and we can have meetings of these contractors and we can, you know, have a vigorous process, or the alternative that we are offering at the moment is a sensible way forward of just making sure that they provide their books. Give the AMWU an opportunity to attempt to ensure that there is compliance.

PN33

If there is not compliance, we propose that we meet with Qantas and start to work exactly what Qantas is going to do if there are breaches in relation to some of these companies. I am sure that it wouldn't be Qantas's position that if an employer had substantially breached its obligations to contractors engaged doing work for Qantas that Qantas would stand by and say, we've got nothing to do with it. I would be very surprised if that was Qantas's position about that. But that's a matter for them. I don't think the proposal we have made puts any very onerous obligations on Qantas.

PN34

THE COMMISSIONER: If Qantas is happy to give you the list of contractors why shouldn't the first step be that you speak to those contractors?

PN35

MR AYRES: We are happy to do that, Commissioner, but let us say, if we do a wages book inspection of contractor A, how do we establish without looking at the induction records that Qantas has of employees who are engaged in maintenance is say freight, that all of the employees who are employed doing that work are actually on the wages books of the contractor who provides them to us. It's a problem in this sort of industry.

PN36

THE COMMISSIONER: I don't know what you're talking about.

PN37

MR AYRES: Well, what I am saying is how does the AMWU satisfactorily establish that the books that are provided to us by a particular contractor have any veracity if we can't cross-reference the names of those employees with the names of the people who have been engaged by that contractor to do work by Qantas.

PN38

Qantas will have an induction list of all of the employees who have gone through an induction to perform work and that will have the name of the company that they are engaged in.

PN39

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, if you get the names of the people employed by company A, why can't you then write to Qantas and say these are the employees that company A says are employed at the jet base working for you. We take it that that is true and correct and there are no further employees. Now Qantas could you please advise. If Qantas turns around and say yes that's okay and it turns out it is not okay well if it ever comes to light Qantas is in deep trouble. Other than that why should - let's assume Qantas won't do that. Qantas will have to say no there's actually three other people that we've got names for and here they are. I just don't understand why you - - -

PN40

MR AYRES: I'm confident that if Qantas writes back to us that I can take what they say as being a reflection of what's actually going on, I am just not confident that they are going to co-operate with this process at all. They may not in fact write back to us.

PN41

What I am trying to establish is some sort of protocol for how we deal with these contractors. Some of these companies are not reputable contractors. The AMWU has had experience with some of these companies in the past and we know that they are bad news so we want to establish some sort of protocol to make sure that at least the people who are engaged performing work at Qantas as receiving their proper entitlements. If they are not and Qantas is prepared to allow them to continue operating on that basis then we've got a much larger problem.

PN42

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that is, that's the case, but until that why should Qantas do your work for you. I'm not saying they shouldn't react if they reason to be at the very least embarrassed by what is happening. You take this, a list contain the names, addresses and classifications. How can Qantas provide a list? That's confidential information and I would have thought the first step is for you to proceed under the provisions of the Act to get the list of employees because you suspect a breach but I don't know how easy it is for Qantas to hand over the name and address of Joe Blow and Mary Smith just because - - -

PN43

MR AYRES: That is not what we are seeking, Commissioner. What we seeking is that Qantas require that the contractors provide those documents. We will serve the contractors with letters that require them to produce those documents and we're entitled to do that and they must provide those documents. What we're saying is that Qantas should require that those contractors do that and that somewhere on Qantas premises on a particular day that those contractors all turn up with their books and that we meet - - -

PN44

THE COMMISSIONER: That's an incredible imposition is it on everybody?

PN45

MR AYRES: We're entitled to do that under the Act.

PN46

THE COMMISSIONER: How is that?

PN47

MR AYRES: I think we've got a right to inspect time and wage books.

PN48

THE COMMISSIONER: I know that but you can't do a global search. You can't say to every employer in a particular industry be at the Commission on such and such a day we are going to inspect your books. One way of showing that there is some basis to a union's concern is by doing it, employer by employer. If it's done by 10 employers together well you wonder whether it is a suspicion or whether it is just maybe we will turn something up.

PN49

MR AYRES: We've done two wage book inspections. One was a no show, breached their obligations under the Act. The other one has revealed very significant concerns. We have a view more broadly about some of these contractors that they have a history. What we're saying here is that - their premises are at Qantas. This is not a significant imposition for these contractors to turn up to their own offices with the books that presume they keep there and facilitate the AMWU being able to do what it is required to do under the Act. All we're seeking is that Qantas tell them that they've got to do it and that Qantas facilitate, if it's required, that we have the necessary facilities to be able to do this as quickly and painlessly as possible. We've done the first step, that is establishing that there is a problem.

PN50

THE COMMISSIONER: You've established there is a problem. One company didn't show or didn't co-operate, the other company you say seems as if they're under insuring, that might not be the right term. Now, have you taken that matter up with Qantas?

PN51

MR AYRES: Well we've raised it on Friday verbally and my view is that the people that that matter should be raised with is Workers' Compensation in New South Wales and they will prosecute them I presume.

PN52

THE COMMISSIONER: I appreciate that. If there are short comings in respect of the contractors used by Qantas, particularly the ones that are on site, then I would have thought the first step which is assisted by Qantas is to give you a list of contractors.

PN53

Two, Qantas understands the right of entry provisions and because it controls the premises ultimately, I mean probably Sydney Airports Corporation does as well, but they see that and they're not going to use that to restrict you from doing what you probably should be able to do. Now, why shouldn't the next step be you then go and do whatever your union is good at and that is find employers, inspect them and work out whether there is underpayments or other breaches and then it is the next step that you take it up with Qantas and you say look he's 20 contractors of which, you know, six are underpaying, two are paying superannuation late, 10 are squeaky clean in respect of where there are short comings what are you going to do about it? Now, Qantas must react I would thought to that but we seem to be a long way from that at this stage.

PN54

MR AYRES: I don't think we're very far away from establishing that at least one contractor has breached its workers' compensation obligations and that's not a small matter.

PN55

THE COMMISSIONER: But why shouldn't - - -

PN56

MR AYRES: I can say I have some difficulty believing that Qantas property management didn't inspect those records themselves and Qantas property management have facilitated this particular contractor operating on their premises in a position where they are under-insured. This is the only premises that this particular contractor I understand operate on at the moment. They are a creation of Qantas. They only have Qantas work and it is unbelievable that Qantas would facilitate a position where this contractor was breaching its workers' compensation provision.

PN57

THE COMMISSIONER: But it seems to me you've come to the Commission but really you should have taken it up initially with the company more formally. If it turns out that there is a real problem here then I would have thought that Qantas may very well take a different attitude in respect of the other companies. It might very well send out appropriate communication to the other contractors saying you'd better adhere to your statutory obligations because we won't - the AMWU is on the move and we're not going to defend it. In fact we're going to review our contractual arrangements.

PN58

But I mean, that is what should happen. Secondly, if you were one of the other contractors they might say well hold on a second just because you have found these other companies, the two that I mentioned in the notification, why should we be put under the spotlight, you come and see us when you feel like it. I must say, Mr Ayres, I don't see the urgency of the matter or that it should be dealt with in this way. Mr Mills, do you have anything to say?

PN59

MR MILLS: I do have a bit to say, Commissioner, and I don't necessarily want to engage with Mr Ayres about the merits of contractors to whom we have a relationship with and whether they are reputable or disputable is clearly an assertion made by Mr Ayres. I am not in a position to comment. What Qantas property management do in relation to the engagement of such contractors as I understand is any issue in relation to contractual arrangement in and around contractors and contractors performing work at Qantas in any capacity is handled though your purchasing department and they have a set protocol upon which they have to undertake. One of those protocols is to make sure that issues like workers' compensation certificate of currency is there. It is fairly importance to us that that occurs.

PN60

I understand where Mr Ayes is coming from. I don't agree with him in the manner in which he is going about it. He is finding the biggest or the easiest target in a sense which is go to the well known or the organisation that potentially may be able to exercise some control over this matter and try and engage that employer or that particular target in an exercise of actually fundamentally doing what is the work of the union. We have made our position quite clear. Mr Ayres has a concern about contractors and the way in which their employment ranges or the way in which they apply the employment arrangements that they have with members of his and to which I would assume his organisation is a party to though whatever certified agreement may apply. That is his concern, that is between he and the employer of the particular member that belongs to his organisation. That is not our concern. That has nothing to do with us.

PN61

We have certain protocols around issues of workers' compensation. Mr Ayres has made it quite clear to you that he has every intention of pursuing this particular employer through the offices of the Workers' Compensation Board in New South Wales. Now, in relation to what these contractors do and where they work I don't think Mr Ayres is 100 per cent certain of the work that these contractors perform and what other sites they may be on. So, he himself is in a sense seeking or making assertions or making comments that he is not 100 per cent certain of. I think it is very important that we don't get ourselves carried away about what may not be a particularly significant matter. It may be a significant matter. That is for Mr Ayres to determine not for us to facilitate. We have made it quite clear that our view of the process is this; Mr Ayres or whoever from Mr Ayres' organisation he seeks or the organisation seeks to have participate in this particular process will need access to these individuals.

PN62

Due to the arrangements at Qantas where you need to provide certain undertakings such as provision of your driver's licence to even get on to the base and the security guards will not let anybody on unless they have authority from particular individuals. We are happy to assist Mr Ayres in that process for this purpose, not for any other. Mr Ayres knows the protocol and nine times out of 10 he is fairly good at adhering to it. So, he understands the protocol.

PN63

We are happy to assist with some facilitation of that through Mr Fenley who is one of the managers in the property area. We have made it quite clear that because our employees have possibly at best an indirect interest in the matter that they have got every right to ask Mr Fenley directly who the contractors are on site for any particular pieces of work. So, it is of no concern to us to provide Mr Ayres with a written list of whose those contractors are. It is then incumbent upon Mr Ayres to determine whether there is a problem or not. Once Mr Ayres has determined that there is a problem he may then wish to exercise or take the opportunity to contact us directly, that is the company, and advise us that contractor A has failed to comply with certain statutory obligations. When we receive that correspondence we may then determine that we need to speak directly to that contractor or we may determine that may do nothing about it and it is not incumbent upon us to formal a policing role in the way in which our contractors operate other than that sits outside our obligations under statute law.

PN64

I have provided Mr Ayres with an opportunity. I have been prepared to give him some facilitation to assist him in achieving his outcome but other than that the company has no interest in going any further than that and does not act in a role of policing its contractors' obligations to its employers at this first instance.

PN65

THE COMMISSIONER: You mentioned workers' compensation but I take it that the company - I am not talking about anything specific - but the company wouldn't be necessarily hands off in its attitude if it discovered that other statutory obligations including adherence to superannuation requirements and even paying people their legal rates of pay. You are not suggesting that Qantas would just say well it is a contractor, we don't care if they pay them $10 an hour, you are not saying that are you?

PN66

MR MILLS: It is an interesting question you ask. I mean it is a difficult question to answer. I only say that on this basis that Qantas believes in adhering and applying the appropriate statutory obligations in accordance with both its awards and agreements and any other statutory obligation it may have being under workers' compensation legislation, workplace or safety legislation, superannuation guarantee legislation to any of its employees. So, any relationship we have with an employee we have an obligation at law to comply with that and we hold to that fairly firmly. We don't always get it right but that is not because we mean to.

PN67

So, indirectly you could assume that in a number of instances Qantas would be uncomfortable with other employers not necessarily complying with the same statutory obligations. Whether that would in turn mean that Qantas would take some sort of punitive action against a contractor with whom it had a commercial arrangement is not for me to comment on at this particular stage. What I am in sense saying to Mr Ayres is that we will facilitate part of the process which we think is a fairly decent thing for the company to do. We don't have any obligation to do it but I know where Mr Ayres is coming from and I appreciate the position that in a sense he may find himself in but it is not for me to perform his task.

PN68

What Mr Ayres then needs to do is he then needs to formally advise the company of when he believes a particular contractor has not entirely complied with its statutory obligations. It is on receipt of that correspondence that we will determine the position we take and it is then that Mr Ayres may have a concern with the way in which the company has acted. At this stage he has no dispute with the company and therefore should take up the offer that we provide and get on with the business of ensuring that these other organisations have met with their statutory requirements.

PN69

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you Mr Mills. Mr Ayres?

PN70

MR AYRES: Commissioner, can I just say if the Commission is not minded to make a recommendation that is proposed, the course of the action that the AMWU have proposed to follow, I mean I have heard what Qantas has said in terms of providing a list of contractors and I believe that in any case that is something that they could be required to do under their current agreements. I mean that is not above the obligations that are currently imposed on them.

PN71

Secondly, Qantas has indicated that it is prepared to facilitate access for, whether it is myself or another representative of the AMWU, to conduct these inspections. And that is all that QANTAS is required to do by the Act. QANTAS isn't required to do any more or any less than that. So it's cold comfort from QANTAS today. But I can say that if that is all that QANTAS is prepared to facilitate, that's okay by the AMWU. We will audit the books of all of the contractors. We will do that. We are entitled to do that. And that will happen. If there are breaches, we will ensure that those breaches are prosecuted. We will report back to our members at QANTAS, the attitude of QANTAS in relation to this matter, and we will make sure that they receive a report through next week. We will report to the contractor's employees the attitude of QANTAS in relation to this matter.

PN72

If there are breaches, we will report those breaches to our members who are directly employed by QANTAS and the contractors and then we will write to QANTAS after that process, Commissioner, because we can follow a process that's designed to assist the parties to reach a sensible outcome in these matters. But if we can't, we will have to try and ensure, on our own, that these contractors abide by their statutory obligations, and I don't seek to threaten QANTAS in relation to this matter, it's just that there are two roads for the AMWU to take at this particular point and if we are not going to be provided with any further facilitation, well, we can only do it on our own.

PN73

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. I have noted your position, Mr Ayres, including your principal one, which is that the Commission make a recommendation in accordance with exhibit AMWU1. I don't propose to do that. I know what the parties have said. I think that what you seek is premature. I think that in the light of what the company intends to do, or is prepared to do, and that is to give you a list of contractors and to facilitate the entry of reasonable persons of the union to speak to, or see, those contractors. That is the first step. The second step is for your organisation to determine whether in fact there is a breach or some matters of concern.

PN74

Then, after that, of course you have got a number of options, one of which I would have thought would be the most sensible one, and that is that you need to approach QANTAS and have discussions about the shortcomings, you say, of these contractors. QANTAS is not, I don't think, can take the view that it's hands-off. The fact is the contractors will fall into line if the principal giver of the contracts is sufficiently concerned. All I say at this stage, and I think QANTAS is entitled to say, well, until you can put a bit more meat to your concerns, all we have got is allegations, or not even that, thoughts that perhaps some people aren't playing the game.

PN75

Well, if that's brought to their attention then as Mr Mills says QANTAS has certain policies in relation to its own employees and it may very well have come to similar conclusions or have similar concerns in relation to employees of contractors. But until it's brought to its attention we can't presume what it's going to do. I won't say it's a minor matter, but it's a matter that I don't think would trouble us particularly at the moment, but I probably agree there's no industrial dispute that would come out of the sort of demand you have put, Mr Ayres, or the organisation has put.

PN76

On the other hand, I think it's also clear in decisions of the Commission and the Courts, I think, that disputes can be found in respect of, you know, between a union and a company such as QANTAS in respect of contractors. As I said, I don't think we need to proceed into that line at this stage. I would have thought that this has got the ability of being discussed once the union is armed with the relevant information. As I said, QANTAS will then have to react to that information. Anyway, on that basis these proceedings are adjourned.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [3.50pm]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #AMWU1 DRAFT RECOMMENDATION FROM AMWU PN16