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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114J MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
DX 305 Melbourne Tel:(03) 9672-5608 Fax:(03) 9670-8883
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N VT10068
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT
COMMISSIONER BLAIR
BP2002/591 - 726, 1175, 1290,
1327 - 1348, 1422, 1443, 1583,
1733, 1767, 1889, 4774,
4837 - 4850 and 4881
HEALTH SERVICES UNION OF AUSTRALIA
(VICTORIA- PRIVATE SECTOR) INTERIM
AWARD 1993
Applications under section 170MX of the Act
by the Health Services Union of Australia -
Victoria Number 3 Branch for arbitration
following termination of bargaining periods
re health and welfare services
MELBOURNE
10.06 AM, WEDNESDAY, 13 NOVEMBER 2002
Continued from 12.11.02
PN839
MR WHITE: Perhaps I could start off this morning just with a brief housekeeping matter. There was discussion between the parties, or certainly between the DHS and HSUA about production of certain documents.
PN840
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes.
PN841
MR WHITE: And the position is that the DHS had couple of surveys done and sought information from respondent employers. A number of employers wanted that information and provided it on the condition that it be treated confidentially.
PN842
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes.
PN843
MR WHITE: And as such the DHS was unable to - - -
PN844
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Release the - - -
PN845
MR WHITE: Voluntarily put it in and accordingly a summons has now been issued compelling the production of those documents. We are in the process of having those copies made and will hopefully have copies available for the parties in the Commission by lunch or shortly after lunch. But by reason of the confidentiality requirements of the respondent employers we would seek an order pursuant to 355 of the Act that the material which in fact goes to, in a large part, the financial position of the party.
PN846
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Sorry, what are you looking at?
PN847
MR WHITE: Section 355.
PN848
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes.
PN849
MR WHITE:
PN850
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: I wasn't aware that the Act extended beyond section 170 because that - - -
PN851
MR WHITE: I am sorry, Commissioner.
PN852
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: - - - I wasn't aware that the Act extended beyond section 170 because that covers everything, I thought.
PN853
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Is it - Mr White, is it necessary to issue an order, would it be sufficient that the material be marked confidential and treated as such on the file.
PN854
MR WHITE: That would be sufficient for our purposed. I mean, I have explained the background as to how we got the information - - -
PN855
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: But it is not unusual that we do deal with confidential documents and they can be placed in a sealed envelope not to be opened.
PN856
MR WHITE: Well that is right. Yes. My instructor - we have been asked to produce - we had anticipated making enough copies for all of the parties. I mean, there really should be an order in those circumstances so it is not confined only to evidence.
PN857
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Because it is wider than a copy, yes.
PN858
MR WHITE: But however the Commission thinks appropriate covers the - - -
PN859
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: All right. is there any objection to that course of action?
PN860
MR LANGMEAD: No, but we would support the Commission taking action to ensure the confidentiality of the surveys is preserved.
PN861
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes.
PN862
MR LANGMEAD: It may be, however, that they never become evidence and so section 355 wouldn't appear to apply to it so - - -
PN863
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: That is what I was trying to avoid, an argument about that.
PN864
MR LANGMEAD: Yes.
PN865
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes. So what is your suggestion, Mr Langmead?
PN866
MR LANGMEAD: The Commission has powers under section 111S and T to give such appropriate orders about the confidentiality as would be necessary to the parties in dealing with the materials that are produced in response to the summons. Whether or not they ever get into evidence - - -
PN867
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Well we will issue an order in an appropriate way that is an agreement of all the parties. Mr Parsons.
PN868
MR PARSONS: Yes, thank you, your Honour. I just might say on behalf of my clients that they did provide it on the basis of confidentiality and I have not got an opportunity right now, of course, to discuss it with other than one of them, this new development.
PN869
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: All right. Well can you take on board what has transpired this morning. We won't be receiving documentation, as I understand it, until after lunch. So maybe after the luncheon adjournment you can put an additional submission if you wish to and that invitation is given to all the other employers. Is that appropriate. All right. Anything further?
PN870
MR EBERHARD: Your Honour, if I could, could I just advise the Commission and the other parties that VECCI now also represents Marillac House, which is M-a-r-i-l-l-a-c which was BP2002/662 who have had their bargaining period terminated on 13 May 2002 in PR917773.
PN871
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, Mr Eberhard. You handed up a list yesterday, didn't you?
PN872
MR EBERHARD: I did and that is in addition to those that we nominated yesterday.
PN873
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, so we will add that to that list. Now, any more housekeeping matters. Mr Langmead.
PN874
MR LANGMEAD: Thank you, your Honour. I think we are up to Ms Chan.
PN875
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, I think so too.
PN876
PN877
MR LANGMEAD: Ms Chan, could you state your name and address for the transcript, please?---Yes. It is Joyce Chan, 53 High Street Road, Ashwood, 3147.
PN878
What is your occupation?---I am an occupational therapist.
PN879
Have you made a statement produced in these proceedings?---Yes, I have.
PN880
Do you have that with you?---Yes, I have.
PN881
Is that statement true and correct?---To my knowledge, yes.
PN882
PN883
MR LANGMEAD: Thank you, Ms Chan. Would you mind waiting there while these gentlemen ask you questions.
PN884
PN885
MR EBERHARD: Thank you, your Honour. Ms Chan, can I take you to paragraph 24 of your statement. The last point that you make in that is that you travel in your car covering large distances without suitable reimbursement. SCOPE does pay in accordance with the award, the per kilometre rates that are set down in the award so you do get reimbursement for car travel, do you not?---We do get reimbursement, yes.
**** JOYCE CHAN XXN MR EBERHARD
PN886
And in point 28 you talk about therapists who have had to purchase their own equipment. That hasn't been a requirement with SCOPE has required of you to purchase your own equipment, has it?---It has been a requirement from SCOPE, yes, because they don't have any funding for us to buy equipment to service the children.
PN887
So SCOPE has put a direction to you to buy your own equipment to work at home to, as you say, to type reports at home, etcetera, and home office equipment?---The nature of our work and the amount of our case load makes us have to do that, yes.
PN888
But it hasn't been a requirement, there isn't a written direction from the organisation for you to do that?---Not - to my understanding, not a policy as such but a direction as a management, as in my direct manager.
PN889
Can I take you then to paragraph 30 you talk about during a level of ill health - during the year, a level of ill health has increased, especially in new staff, what are you comparing that to?---Public sector hospitals. My colleagues, when we are all new grads, just in - I mean, it is not a - it is more from a casual social get together from a lot of colleagues that I know in the public hospitals. It is the Monash Medical Centre, Royal Children's Hospital are the two place - yes, sorry.
PN890
It is external rather than internal at SCOPE?---I don't understand.
PN891
Well, when you compare it and you say the level of ill health increased in new staff, you are making that as a comparison not to other SCOPE employees or other scope periods of time, but in terms of the other agencies that operate in similar fields?---Yes.
PN892
Can I take you to paragraph 43 in regards to salary packaging, you recently had a discussion with the Human Resources Manager, Geoff Chambers, in regards to salary packaging?---Yes, I have.
**** JOYCE CHAN XXN MR EBERHARD
PN893
Has that now clarified your understanding of what you say in paragraph 43?---No it hasn't because he actually did it yesterday and I was actually outside here at the court, so I wasn't able to attend the session. But according to my colleagues it still hasn't clarified the matter, who actually did attend.
PN894
All right, well I can't take that any further, so I have no further questions.
PN895
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, Mr White.
PN896
PN897
MR WHITE: Now, Ms Chan, what are the schools that you visit?---Do you want me to name them all or some of them?
PN898
Are they - well, generically, are they Education Department schools?---We service at SCOPE both Education Department, Catholic Education and independent schools and - yes.
PN899
Right. And I take it that the service that you provide at the schools is a service that the schools contract with SCOPE to obtain?---Yes.
PN900
And I take it that the schools pay SCOPE for the services provided by SCOPE?---In different ways, but yes.
PN901
And so the schools, the Department of Education schools, would pay it out of - well, do you know - sorry, I withdraw that. The private schools obviously pay for it out of their own budgets and funds?---No, they don't. They actually get an allocation - a child that sees us usually are under the integration program and they are often allocated funding as a result of their disability.
**** JOYCE CHAN XXN MR WHITE
PN902
And that is through the Department of Education?---And independent schools and Catholic Education schools.
PN903
Yes, but can I suggest to you that pupils, students, who require the assistance that SCOPE provides, that in respect of those students the schools obtain funding through the appropriate Education Department?---Yes - sorry, yes.
PN904
So to the extent then, Ms Chan, that your statement deals with the services provided by you individually and other therapists to schools, your evidence doesn't go to any Department of Human Services funded programs?---It does if I have got some reference to early intervention programs.
PN905
All right. So other than early intervention programs, none of the evidence you have given in your statement - sorry - none of the activities and programs referred to in your statement are funded by Department of Human Services?---There are a few, yes, from - such as Moira, Anglicare, they are government funded.
PN906
All right. Well, perhaps if I can confine that a little more definitely. The services that SCOPE provides to schools you agree is not funded by the Department of Human Services?---There are occasions where the Department of Human Services do fund some kids at schools because they actually don't receive allocation through the integration program, so the schools have actually got extra funding through programs such as Anglicare and Moira who have paid through that organisation us to go and see the student at a mainstream school.
PN907
That is not funding to SCOPE, that is funding to the schools?---No, it is funded to SCOPE directly.
PN908
All right?---They are like a private client to our - to us.
PN909
All right. What percentage of students that you provide services to would be funded in that way compared with the percentage of students who would be funded through the Department of Education programs?---Yes, off the top of my head, and I haven't - just counting, probably 15 per cent of my case load.
**** JOYCE CHAN XXN MR WHITE
PN910
So 15 per cent. And you would, from your experience, think that that is an equivalent percentage with the other therapists who works in schools?---There are some therapists who probably have more than me.
PN911
And some with less?---Possibly, yes.
PN912
When you talk about billable hours, that is to fill the hours as part of the contract that SCOPE has with the relevant schools?---Yes.
PN913
So the extent then that if SCOPE, the employer, was to put an argument to the Commission that its capacity to meet the HSUA claim was dependent upon Department of Human Services funding, to the extent that funding is obtained elsewhere that argument, you would agree, is misconceived?---Can you explain it again to me?
PN914
If the majority of your work is funded other than by the Department of Human Services, you would agree, would you not, that if your employer said, we cannot meet your claim until the Department of Human Services increases its funding, such a claim would be misconceived?---Personally, I actually have no understanding in that area. I just - my work is as a therapist. Those things I leave up to my management.
PN915
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: But you are being asked a question now that you should respond to?---Can I actually ask to explain it again in another way?
PN916
MR WHITE: If your employer was to say to the Commission, we are unable to meet the HSUA claim until the Department of Human Services increases its funding, to the extent that your employer is funded elsewhere, for example, by schools, such an argument by your employer is misconceived; do you agree with that proposition?---I don't - - -
**** JOYCE CHAN XXN MR WHITE
PN917
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: Do you - - -?---I don't like when you are saying "misconceived", it sort of - - -
PN918
Do you understand the question, Ms Chan?---No, I don't.
PN919
Okay.
PN920
MR WHITE: Perhaps we will move on. It is a matter perhaps more for submission than rather Ms Chan's understanding of it.
PN921
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Could you divide the question up?
PN922
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Could the question be in a simpler form?
PN923
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes.
PN924
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: I mean, as I understand the question and I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong, Mr White, but the question is that if you put a claim on your employer and your employer says that we cannot respond to that claim because we need additional funding from the Department of Human Services, but the proportion of funding that they get is not the major amount of funding to run SCOPE, is then their argument not valid argument because they can't accede to your claim?---No.
PN925
MR WHITE: Why is that?---Because you are saying then that SCOPE rely - I mean, I get very confused because I am very nervous and I apologise, but are then saying to me that SCOPE are saying they only rely purely on Department of - they don't rely on Human Services funding?
**** JOYCE CHAN XXN MR WHITE
PN926
No, make an assumption, make an assumption that your employer said in response to the claims made by the HSUA that we can't meet this claim because the Department of Human Services isn't increasing the funding sufficient to meet it, make that assumption?---That I understand, yes.
PN927
Is that more than assumption? As far as you are aware, is that what your employer has said?---That is - from my understanding, that is what the employer has said, yes, I understand that.
PN928
Now, if, for example, the majority of funding for a particular program, for example, schools, is obtained other than from DHS, in your understanding, that argument by your employer would be wrong?---No still; I would say no.
PN929
All right. Why is that?---Because from my understanding, the funding that we get through the mainstream schools that have - goes directly to running our particular service, such as South-east Specialist Services or North-west Specialist Services as opposed to the global funding of our salary.
PN930
Okay. Well, can you confine then my question to the service that you provide in the schools?---Can I what, sorry?
PN931
Can you confine - what percentage of your work is done with schools?---Eighty per cent.
PN932
Eighty per cent. And of that 80 per cent, 85 per cent of it is funded by funds through the Department of Education?---Yes.
PN933
In relation to your area of work in schools, if your employer said, we can't meet your wage claim until the Department of Human Services increases its funding, that would be wrong, wouldn't it?---No.
**** JOYCE CHAN XXN MR WHITE
PN934
Well, why is that?---Because that is their argument that they are giving to us at the moment, that they can't meet our funding because Department of Human Services will not increase their income.
PN935
But if the majority - the bulk - the vast bulk of the funding comes from sources other than the Department of Human Services, you would think that your employer might be telling you a shifty?---No, because as I said before, the money that we get from the Department of Education and mainstream schools funds our local particular part of the service and it doesn't - I actually don't feel that I should be, sort of - not answering - it is not my area of expertise. My understanding is that the money that comes from mainstream settings help run the day to day program of our service as opposed to my salary.
PN936
So are you saying the Department of Human Services funding - funds part of your work in the schools which is separately funded by the Education Department?---Yes. I get a salary which gets paid through SCOPE and then SCOPE then we outreach the services to the mainstream schools.
[10.27am]
PN937
Those parts of your evidence about - just stopping there for a tic, were you involved in any enterprise negotiations with your employer at the time that HSUA claims were made?---Yes.
PN938
Did your employer ever say to you or your fellow workers, union members, in the context of the enterprise bargaining negotiations that we actually get a lot of funds elsewhere?---No.
PN939
Did your employer only ever say to you, we can't do it until and unless the Department of Human Services increases its funding?---That was my understanding. They - yes, they did.
**** JOYCE CHAN XXN MR WHITE
PN940
What level under the award are your classified as, do you know?---I am grade 2, year 4.
PN941
Grade 2, year 4. Does that then mean, Ms Chan, that your - I might hold you to the nearest dollar or cent, that your annual salary is currently $47,473.47?---No, it is not, because I only work part-time.
PN942
I am sorry; if I just - - -?---But it probably would be if I was full-time.
PN943
Sorry, I read the wrong column. It is $49,903 is the annual salary, and you receive part of that because you work part-time?---If it is $25.18 an hour, yes, that is right.
PN944
So you don't know what the annual salary would be?---I do. I earned $30,195 for the financial year.
PN945
And how many hours a week do you work?---At the moment I work 48 hours a fortnight for SCOPE.
PN946
Are you aware, or have you ever been made aware by your employer or anyone else, that if the Department of Human Services' offer of wage increases was applied to your annualised salary it would lift that salary to $54,529.22?---If that is 12.8 per cent above that wage that you gave me then, yes.
PN947
Well - - -?---I didn't calculate it in monetary value.
PN948
That is what - okay, all right. And you have been told 12.8 per cent would amount to what figure?---That I just - I didn't know what figure. I only know it is going to be an increase of my salary of 12.8, not in the monetary value though.
**** JOYCE CHAN XXN MR WHITE
PN949
Are you seeking a 12.8 per cent increase or in your understanding parity with the disability publicly funded sector?---Well, if I want parity, then it is 12.8 per cent.
PN950
Have you done the sums yourself or do you rely on that evidence on what you have been told?---I haven't done the sums, as I said, I have done the 12.8, I haven't calculated it.
PN951
Have you applied 12.8 per cent to a particular figure, have you?---No.
PN952
No. So when you say 12.8 per cent, that is what you have been told by someone else?---That is what I have read, yes.
PN953
Just a couple of other questions. I want to go back - and similarly, the way - in the same way as you have been told about the 12.8 per cent, that is where you get the sums in paragraph 38 of your statement?---Yes.
PN954
So, paragraph 38 is based on what you have been told presumably by the representative of the union?---It has been going on for so long I actually can't remember where I got it originally from.
PN955
All right. Now I just duck back a little bit. In paragraph 32 of your statement, can you have a look at that - the private business, was that - that closed, and then a large number of students as a result of the closure are now then being serviced by SCOPE. Is the funding for those students obtained by SCOPE from private sources?---The funding has come again through the Department of Education, through the mainstream schools.
**** JOYCE CHAN XXN MR WHITE
PN956
And one final matter, Ms Chan, can you explain - can you have a look at paragraph 43 and explain your understanding of how 20 cents in the dollar goes back to the employer. Can you explain to the Commission your understanding of the salary packaging arrangement which was proposed or introduced and how it worked?---Well, my understanding was that number one, it isn't set - I mean, it is - for part-time staff members and casual members, one, we can't - not necessarily me personally, can actually take part in this particular salary packaging, but of $1.28 of our salary my understanding is 20 cents will go back to the employer and of which the dollar benefit comes back to us. I still don't know what happens to the actual 20 cents of that dollar, that is 20 cents that has been removed. As I said yesterday, Geoff Chambers came to our service to try and explain that further, and I thought for my colleagues I might get some more information from that, but according to them it still wasn't very clear what is actually happening to that 20 per cent, so that is why personally at the moment I feel and under the advisement of my accountant I am not taking the package.
PN957
All right. Why - I think you said in the first part of your answer that part-time workers couldn't participate in salary packaging?---Not all part-time; anyone who is earning less than 20,000 isn't eligible for our salary packaging or isn't advised to take it, because we won't get the benefits from the package and anyone who is under a casual award which a lot of ours - well, a couple - a few people at South-East are, aren't entitled to it as well.
PN958
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Not entitled to it, or there is no benefit to them?---They are not entitled to it.
PN959
Not entitled?---No, because under the award casual people cannot take - my understanding is that - my colleagues who have spoken to me - is that they can't take the salary package because they are under casual rates, so that is why it is no benefit to them at all. That is at SCOPE.
PN960
MR WHITE: Thank you, Ms Chan. I have no further questions.
**** JOYCE CHAN XXN MR WHITE
PN961
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: Before Mr White sits down, can I just ask, on the figures you mentioned before, you would be on a marginal tax rate of 30 per cent, wouldn't you?---No, because I have a private business that works quite profitably, so I am not, I am in the - - -
PN962
So you are on a marginal tax rate of less than 20 per cent?---No.
PN963
I am sorry, less than 17 per cent, because I think a dollar over $1.20 - - -?---Higher.
PN964
- - - is point 8333 repeated?---No, higher, because I earn - I am taxed on about - a lot higher than that, on - because I work two jobs.
PN965
If you divide $1 by $1.20, as I say, it is point 83 repeater. In other words, you would be losing a 16.67 repeater per cent. Would you not be better off?---I would be better off if I was to work - - -
PN966
To accept the salary package?--- - - - no, no, I am not, because according to what my account said, because I work privately my income is actually of a higher tax bracket as it is, and if I worked at SCOPE alone - - -
PN967
But that is the point I am making. If you listen to the point I am putting to you, implicit in what you have said in para 43, you would lose 16.67 per cent of any benefit that was available in salary package. So long as your tax rate is higher than 16.67 repeater you are better off taking the employer's offer, are you not?---That still doesn't give me parity with the Public Sector, though.
[10.37am]
PN968
No, that is not what I asked. In other words, a benefit is being offered to you and on the figures you have said, it is 83.3 per cent of what might be available but it is still better than the position you have at the moment, is it not?---But if my accountant, who specialises in my finances, said to me not to do it, then at this stage I, at the moment, trust his judgment.
**** JOYCE CHAN XXN MR WHITE
PN969
Yes. I am trying to - - -?---So I know what you are saying but I suppose that is why I have an accountant who tells me whether to go ahead with this and he said at the moment to leave it.
PN970
I am trying to understand why your accountant would give you that advice. Are there limits on - what is the limit of salary packaging available to you?---What do you mean - like - - -
PN971
Is there a dollar limit?---My understanding is if you earn over 20,000 you can salary package up to, grossed up, 30,000 of that. For me it would only be another additional 10,000, I think.
PN972
Sorry. Can you help me understand the - you could salary package 30,000?---From my understanding, as I said, from when I was given all the information was that from anything above that you earn, that is at 20,000 and above, you can salary package up to an additional 30,000. So I assume if your salary is up to 50,000, 30,000 of that you could salary package.
PN973
I see. So - and is there any limit on the categories of expenditure that you can apply salary packaging to?---The last I read, but I could be wrong because I haven't been updated, and that is that we couldn't do our car for some reason but it could be wrong. I mean, that was of May 2001.
PN974
So what sort of expenses could you apply a salary packaging - - -?---To a mortgage, to our credit card bill and at the moment I think it was also a personal computer.
PN975
Your credit card would mean, therefore, you could apply it to virtually anything?---That is my understanding, yes.
PN976
Now, let us say for argument's sake that you were on a marginal tax rate of 30 cents in the dollar and if you could salary package 30,000 you would agree, would you not, that you could calculate a tax saving by doing so of 30,000 by point 3, which on my calculator is $9000 a year?---I think so, yes.
**** JOYCE CHAN XXN MR WHITE
PN977
So salary packaging $30,000 would produce a net pay increase to an individual of $9000 a year?---But of which - isn't a dollar of that, 20 cents of that, each dollar, goes out?
PN978
No, no, no. That wasn't the question I asked. Just following through the figures - we will get to that. Following through the figures, if there was 30,000 available - and that is a separate question but if there was 30,000 available, at a marginal tax rate that would be a net increase, through tax saving, applying that 30,000 to anything, of $9000 a year?---If you say so.
PN979
Now, even if you then took point 83 - if you multiplied that by point 833 repeater, that is an increase of $7500. In other words, you would be $7500 better off in what you receive than what you are now?---If you say so, yes.
PN980
Why wouldn't you do that?---Because I am actually going to reduce my hours again so there is no - I felt that there - as my accountant said, there is probably no point because I will probably go under the next salary bracket.
PN981
I see. But conceptually I think you would agree that anyone could work out that that benefit was so attractive you would be crazy to reject it, wouldn't you?---But also my understanding of salary package - I can hear what you are saying but it was my - it is like it was my decision. Like, I have thought long and hard about this, spoken with my accountant and I just personally do not want to take the salary package.
PN982
Okay, but so far as you are concerned, on the information available to you, there is a limit of about $30,000 per person in what could be packaged - - -?---20,000.
PN983
- - - and that that figure could be applied to any type of expenditure - - -?---Yes.
PN984
- - - that comes through a credit card?---Yes.
**** JOYCE CHAN XXN MR WHITE
PN985
And you understand that the benefit of salary packaging is to reduce the effective tax rate you are paying?---Yes.
PN986
And that anyone could sit down and do the numbers?---But, as I said, most of my colleagues work part-time less hours than I do and are casual. So any of this doesn't apply to them.
PN987
Yes, but, you know, anyone to whom salary packaging applies would be able to do the numbers with a calculator?---Yes, with a calculator.
PN988
And they would work out that there is a substantial benefit to them?---I wouldn't have thought it substantial.
PN989
Have you ever done the numbers?---I have.
PN990
Or, rather, your accountant has?---Yes.
PN991
Yes, okay. Thank you. That has been most helpful.
PN992
MR WHITE: I have no questions arising.
PN993
PN994
MR LANGMEAD: Ms Chan, Mr Eberhard asked you a question about your statement about not getting reasonable reimbursement?---For the motor vehicle?
**** JOYCE CHAN RXN MR LANGMEAD
PN995
Yes. You said in your statement in paragraph 24 that you travel in the car covering large distances without suitable reimbursement. You told Mr Eberhard that you do obtain reimbursement of some sort?---But not reasonable.
PN996
So what is it that you do get?---At the moment, over the last seven years that I have been working at SCOPE I have still been getting 48 cents per kilometre that is work related.
PN997
Yes. So why do you say that you - sorry, I withdraw that. You see the sentence in paragraph 24: long hours with no paid overtime, travel in the car covering large distances without suitable reimbursement. Can you explain what you mean by "without suitable reimbursement"?---Yes. When I say we - not suitable reimbursement is that, as I said, I have worked seven years at SCOPE and it has been and continues to be 48 cents per K. In that time the price of petrol actually has increased quite enormously, in that time, and therefore - also the price of servicing, my car has deteriorated and depreciated, obviously, and it still remains at 48 cents a kilometre. No paid overtime: we have - as I think I said earlier in my statement, we do - we have a set kind of caseload that we have to fulfil, which is direct hours of, say, like six children a day. It doesn't cater for the fact that we have to write reports on those children and any other requests that parents have regarding equipment, anything like that, where - although we do get - we will be able to - we need time to actually write those reports and it doesn't always come out of our 9 to 5 hours. So a lot of our colleagues, and I can speak for most - all of my colleagues, actually, have to do some work outside of hours on weeknights and weekends to actually do those reports.
PN998
Okay. Thank you. I have no further questions for Ms Chan. Might she be excused, your Honour?
PN999
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: By the way, Ms Chan, I forgot about the Medicare levy. The marginal benefit is an extra 1-1/2 per cent higher, so the figures I gave you understated the benefit of salary packaging. It is, in fact, higher than that.
**** JOYCE CHAN RXN MR LANGMEAD
PN1000
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Ms Chan, could I just - in point 33 of your statement you say:
PN1001
The main issue at SCOPE (Vic) South East is the recruitment of staff and maintaining the staff and we had one therapist lsat three months.
PN1002
Now, when therapists leave, say SCOPE, Yooralla, wherever, where do they go?---That particular therapist left to - from what I remember is they actually left to go to - I think they went overseas, actually, in the end, but some do go to the - not mainstream hospitals - what do you call them - public hospitals. I have had some colleagues who have got better offers at the Royal Children's and at Monash Medical Centre in the paediatric departments and, therefore, have gone from SCOPE to there and gone to the particular respective units like Uncle Bob's Centre, where they deal with children with cerebral palsy. And also the Monash Medical Centre have an NDT, kind of little neuro developmental kind of neurological clinic where they go there and carry out their work there.
PN1003
Right. As far as you are aware, one of the reasons for that is because there might be more occupational therapists there, say, for instance, to take some of the workload, as opposed to you have said in your statement that there is not enough you have actually had to increase workload because you are unable to get sufficient numbers of occupational therapists. So is one of the reasons for them going to the public area in terms of Uncle Bob's hospitals and stuff like that is because there are more therapists there?---No. I mean, we have still got quite a large number of therapists. We just don't have enough therapists to cover the caseload that we have been given. A lot of them actually find that the working conditions and the stress load is too much to impact on them. So, therefore, they find the 9 to 5 - I mean, 9 to 5 hospital system and, obviously, the pay a lot more attractive.
PN1004
More attractive. Now, you also said in a question, I think it was from Mr Eberhard, in point 28, in response to a question about being a direct policy, this is the supply of - you have got - mobile phones, computers and home office equipment, you said that there wasn't a direct policy that you could recall but it was your direct manager?---Well, we can't do the work without mobile phones, computers - - -
**** JOYCE CHAN RXN MR LANGMEAD
PN1005
So what has your direct manager actually said to you?---He said that if you - that we all should get a mobile phone so that we are contacted. We do get reimbursement for the actual phone calls that we make but not for the renting of the phone and actual - the initial purchase of the phone. As with computers, from our tax, not from SCOPE, you know, we can obviously claim back electricity and the depreciation of the computer but not through SCOPE.
[10.49am]
PN1006
And has anyone ever asked the question, well, what would happen if I don't get a mobile phone?---Yes.
PN1007
And what was the response?---That - it got to the point where they had to get - not because they were told to, but because the work became so difficult to contact them, that they end up caving in anyway.
PN1008
And getting a phone? Right. Has anyone ever put the direct question about, for instance, SCOPE supplying the mobile phone?---Yes.
PN1009
And what was the response? Well, if it supplied a response, you can tell us?---It was, forget it.
PN1010
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: Can I just ask one final question, coming back to salary packaging. What do you understand is the source of salary packaging: in other words, why is your employer able to offer a salary packaging facility?---I don't know.
PN1011
Has it been put to you that it is because your employer gets exemption from fringe benefits tax?---That rings a bell.
PN1012
So that because the employer gets an exemption from fringe benefits tax obligations, it is able to offer a facility to you that other employers are not able to offer: has that been put to you?---What always seems to stick in my head from the salary packaging is that extra 20 cents that they removed from my salary.
**** JOYCE CHAN RXN MR LANGMEAD
PN1013
But can you answer the question that I asked you?---I apologise. Can you repeat it again?
PN1014
Has it been explained to you, or said to you, that because your employer gets exemption from fringe benefits tax obligations by virtue of the sector in which you work, that they are able to offer you a benefit that employers in other sectors are not able to offer?---My understanding was that employers in other sectors offer this as well. You mean, like other sectors of SCOPE, or other sectors like Yooralla?
PN1015
The rest of the economy?---I mean, my understanding was that finally the way they packaged it literally was that we would now be working alongside other - like, we are now able to offer you salary packaging which we were not able to offer you in the past, where other organisations did have it, and we never had it.
PN1016
But the source of that is, in your understanding, because your employer gets an exemption from fringe benefits tax obligations?---I assume.
PN1017
Thank you. That is all.
PN1018
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Ms Chan, if you have some concerns about 20 cents out of $1.20 at SCOPE, you would be having apoplexy if you worked for Yooralla.
PN1019
PN1020
MR LANGMEAD: Ms Morgan, would you tell the Commission your full name and address for the purposes of the transcript?---My name is Polly Lisa Morgan, 207 Elizabeth Street, Coburg.
PN1021
What is your occupation?---I am a Senior Clinician Speech Pathologist.
PN1022
Have you made a statement for use in these proceedings?---I am sorry, could you - - -
PN1023
Have you made a statement for use in these proceedings?---Yes, I have.
PN1024
Do you have it with you?---Yes, I do.
PN1025
Is that statement true and correct?---Yes.
PN1026
I tender that.
PN1027
MR WHITE: I have a broad objection to it, but I can deal with that, rather than objecting to the form of the statement, in cross-examination.
PN1028
PN1029
MR LANGMEAD: Ms Morgan, would you mind waiting there while these gentlemen ask you questions.
**** POLLY LISA MORGAN XN MR LANGMEAD
PN1030
PN1031
MR EBERHARD: Ms Morgan, can I take you to paragraph 8 of your statement, please. In that you state that Yooralla does not pay higher qualifications allowance. Well, I put it to you that Yooralla does pay a higher qualifications allowance but it is strictly in accordance with the award?---It is not to my knowledge.
PN1032
Again, you then state further on that Yooralla does not provide paid study leave, professional development leave. Again, there are policies and procedures in Yooralla that provide for both paid study leave and professional development leave: are you aware of that?---It is not formalised, to my knowledge. It is the Manager's discretion. It is not formalised.
PN1033
But it is available for you - you are available to undertake study leave and/or professional development leave?---It is not a formalised process.
PN1034
There is a policy that exists on the process of study leave?---Study leave - I can't answer that. I don't know about study leave.
PN1035
Do you know anything about professional development leave?---Yes, I do.
PN1036
There is also again policies in regards to professional development leave?---In terms of policies, I don't understand policies. I know there is a bucket of money. When that money is gone, professional development is gone. So that is my understanding of professional development.
PN1037
**** POLLY LISA MORGAN XXN MR WHITE
PN1038
MR WHITE: Ms Morgan, you work at the Glenroy Specialist School?---I do.
PN1039
That is an Education Department school, is it not?---It is.
PN1040
And Yooralla contracts with the school to provide services to the students at the school?---That is my understanding.
PN1041
And the funding that Yooralla receives to provide those services is paid by the school?---Could you say that again, please?
PN1042
The funding, or the money, the way Yooralla is paid to provide the service, comes from the school, the Glenroy school?---An amount does. My understanding is there is an amount that Yooralla receives, yes.
PN1043
And that is paid by the school?---An amount, yes.
PN1044
Do you know whether or not the funding the school gets is provided either by the Department of Human Services or the Department of Education?---There are two funding bodies, to my knowledge. I am not in a position where I am, you know, privy to amounts, and what have you, but I know there are two parties that contribute to the service.
PN1045
Can I ask you to assume that the Glenroy Specialist School is funded by the Department of Education: could I ask you to make that assumption. On the basis of that assumption, if your employer said to you that it cannot meet the claim made by the HSUA because the Department of Human Services won't fully fund it, that would be a bit of a furphy, would you agree with that?---I can't agree with that - the assumption. I am not assuming anything. I think it is a very complicated thing you have put forward to me, and I am not processing it very clearly. But I understand that there is an amount that the Department of Employment Education and Training do pay for Yooralla services, and the Department of Human Services also contribute to the therapy service as well.
**** POLLY LISA MORGAN XXN MR WHITE
PN1046
There is the Yooralla therapy service, or the services provided at the school?---Yes. Yooralla works within the school context.
PN1047
Well, can I ask you to make the assumption, though - and it is an assumption I am asking you to make. I am not asking you to agree with it. That the Department of Education funds the operations of the Glenroy Specialist School, including the payment of the therapy services that Yooralla provides to the students at the school. Just make that assumption. I am not asking you to comment on whether it be true or untrue?---My knowledge is that the Education Department gives money to the school, and we are contracted to provide the service to the school.
PN1048
To that extent then, if your employer relied upon the absence of funding from a different department to deny the HSUA claim, in respect of you and your workers at the Glenroy Specialist School, you would agree then that that would be an incorrect statement by your employer?---I am sorry, I don't understand what you are saying. Could you make it a bit more - - -
PN1049
Have you been told by your employer, that we can't meet the HSUA claim because the Department of Human Services won't give increased funding sufficient to cover it?---We can't meet the - - -
PN1050
No, have you been told by your employer the reason why it is not meeting the HSUA claim?---My understanding is that we are unable - there is not sufficient funding for us to achieve parity with the public sector. There just isn't the funding, full stop. That is my - - -
PN1051
So your employer has not said to you that funding from the Department of Human Services, or anywhere else, that just not enough funding?---Not enough - it shifts and changes. I think it is not a simplistic as one funding body. I think it would be a case of two funding bodies having to come to the party, but I am not good with figures so I can't respond to that, I am sorry.
**** POLLY LISA MORGAN XXN MR WHITE
PN1052
I am not asking about the figures, or the interconnection between the figures, or anything like that. I am just asking you in those last couple of questions, what Yooralla have told you the reason is that they can't meet the HSUA claim?---Because they do not get the dollars to fund it, basically.
PN1053
And do they say it is because we don't get the dollars from the Department of Human Services?---I wouldn't answer that.
PN1054
I have no further questions.
PN1055
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: Can I ask you a question before Mr White concludes, on paragraph 11 of your statement. You say:
PN1056
Yooralla does provide salary packaging. However, new employees do not receive the full benefit of packaging. Half the benefit goes to Yooralla. This is not an attractive option for employees, and does not enhance recruitment.
PN1057
Can I ask you why you say that?---Again, I think it is a personal response. As a senior clinician I interview new staff. One of the situations is that I am on the 30 per cent packaging situation, and when I am talking about conditions for new staff there is an inequity there. It is 15 per cent. So personally I feel that is not a very - and I don't voice that obviously. I think it is common knowledge before - particularly with new graduates when they are going out into the world, to find out what is happening in different sectors. And it is widely known that - I understand that it is discussed - that there is an inequity across the different sectors, and disability is not as attractive to work in, in terms of conditions, pay, and what have you, salary packaging being one of the components.
PN1058
[11.03am]
**** POLLY LISA MORGAN XXN MR WHITE
PN1059
Can you just explain to me please, you said you were on a 30 per cent packaging arrangement?---Yes.
PN1060
What do you mean by that?---Up to 30 per cent. I am terrible with figures, but I understand that up to - - -
PN1061
I notice you have got a Master of Science; you must have done statistics at some stage?---That is grammar, no, no. Purely grammar.
PN1062
You have not done statistics?---No, no, I can talk about grammatical function, but not money. I am on the old - if I can just basically say I am on the old system, so up to 30 per cent, you may need to help me here, is packaged.
PN1063
Thirty per cent of what?---Of my gross.
PN1064
So you can package 30 per cent of your gross salary?---That is my understanding, but I - - -
PN1065
And how is your employer able to do that? Or rather, let me ask you, what is the benefit to you of packaging up to 30 per cent of your gross salary?---The benefit for me - I suppose it helps - I get extra in my wallet, I suppose, that is the bottom line, so I can provide for my family and - - -
PN1066
Through paying less tax?---I think that is the way it works. I don't do the tax in the house.
PN1067
Have you been told that your employer is able to provide salary packaging because there is an exemption for your employer from fringe benefits tax obligations after a certain level?---To be honest, your Honour, when I signed up for salary packaging, it was presented as an attractive option. I probably didn't look into it as in depth as I could have, but my understanding was that there was a benefit for staff in certain situations at that time and that is probably what I have operated on over the years until recent changes.
**** POLLY LISA MORGAN XXN MR WHITE
PN1068
So examples were given to you and it was shown that it was a benefit to you to participate?---Yes, and we did have some one-on-one consultation and what-have-you, but I think again, as useful as that process is to a lot of people, if you don't have a financial brain, then, you know, it is all gobbledegook and, to be honest, that is probably - I would sit there and nod and - but with the sense that it was at that time a benefit to me and my family.
PN1069
Right. Okay, so you say you can apply up to 30 per cent of your gross salary through salary packaging; what categories of expenses or expenditure can salary packaging be applied to?---My - I can only speak on behalf of the - of my experience - - -
PN1070
I am asking your experience, yes, what you know?---Things like mortgage repayments, Visa card expenses, bills, car repayments.
PN1071
So given that you can have your credit card bill paid through salary packaging, it can be applied to almost anything?---With this particular body, yes, I believe so.
PN1072
I see. So when you say:
PN1073
The new employees do not receive the full benefit of packaging, half the benefit goes to Yooralla, this is not an attractive option for employees and does not enhance recruitment...
PN1074
are you talking about the same sort of packaging you have just described to me, that a new employee could package up to 30 per cent of their salary, have it applied to any sort of expenditure and enjoy a tax benefit?---My understanding, your Honour, is that they wouldn't be able to package the 30 per cent, it is 15 percent - or 50 per cent goes to Yooralla. That is my understanding; it could be incorrect. My situation is five years old and it was a different agreement and I think I was away on maternity leave and upon my return I noticed that this had changed, so - - -
**** POLLY LISA MORGAN XXN MR WHITE
PN1075
So what is different? What are the fundamental differences between the salary packaging available to new employees versus what you enjoy?---The amount packaged is a difference. There is a 15 per cent difference. So again I am not a figure person, your Honour, but I think if I am on 30 and they are on 15, there must be some inequity there, but again I am not an accountant so - - -
PN1076
So what you are putting is that while you can package up to 30 per cent of salary, they are able to package up to 15 per cent of salary; do I understand you correctly?---I think that is - that is my understanding of it.
PN1077
So they would get the benefit on 15 per cent of their salary rather than 30 per cent of their salary?---I would imagine that is the case, your Honour.
PN1078
If that were to be the case, why is that not attractive for employees?---If - again I am looking to the public sector where that is not the case. The comparison is going to be made with what people can actually package in other areas compared to coming to an organisation. It could be one part of it, it is not the whole part.
PN1079
Most employees around Australia are not able to participate in salary packaging with any taxation benefit other than superannuation contributions and car expenses, so, you know, if you want to compare, salary packaging is generally not available in any significant way outside of this particular sector?---Your Honour, I just - I am not - my understanding in the public health sector that that is not the case, you can also package mortgage and the other things, the household things that most therapists, given that it is a female - well, it is a female dominated profession and there is a high proportion of women going in, having children, what-have-you, they are the things that you are likely to package so - - -
PN1080
Yes. So that - that is the hospital sector?---In that sector, in the disability sector, so that is - there is an inequity of sexes in - - -
**** POLLY LISA MORGAN XXN MR WHITE
PN1081
Well, I guess what I am putting to you and seeking your response on is generally salary packaging throughout the economy does not deliver big benefits to the employee. This is a sector of the economy where it does. Now, the difficulty I have in understanding the point you are making in paragraph 11 is that, if I understand you correctly, the benefit that is available to employees of Yooralla is only half what it may be in some other employer's case; is that right?---Your Honour, if we are talking purely about salary packaging, I agree.
PN1082
Yes, talking purely about salary packaging?---As one component of the whole issue, I agree, yes.
PN1083
Yes. So the benefit in the case of Yooralla is half what it might be for someone working for another employer in the sector?---In the?
PN1084
In this area of employment?---Disability or in health? As a therapist you mean?
PN1085
Yes?---As a therapist. Again, I - excuse me, your Honour, I am trying to process this, I am not very clear on it. In terms - with salary packaging, don't we need to also consider the gross salary and then look at the packaging on top of that to make those sorts of calculations as well? For example - - -
PN1086
But the question I am putting to you is, if I understand your evidence correctly, do I understand what you say here to be that Yooralla provides half the benefit of salary packaging to the employee, in some other cases the full benefit might be provided to the employee. I take it that is what you are saying in paragraph 11?---In my personal experience and those that are employed before the change, there is inequity, so if we are talking about half and full, that exists.
PN1087
Yes?---If we are talking about the case and trying to achieve parity with the public sector, we are talking about half - a full and half.
**** POLLY LISA MORGAN XXN MR WHITE
PN1088
Right?---So the case now for all new staff is that the 15 per cent is the full benefit that they receive, that is the new deal, but in terms of old/new, there is a discrepancy, and in terms of disability/public, there is a discrepancy, that is my understanding as simple as it is.
[11.13am]
PN1089
Let us just say, for the sake of argument, that half of the benefits of salary packaging to a new employee - sorry, half of the benefit of salary packaging was $5000?---Mm.
PN1090
So that is the full benefit was $10,000, half the benefit must be $5000?---Mm.
PN1091
If an employee gets an extra $5000 that would be a benefit, wouldn't it?---Your Honour, you are talking about an amount over and above what they would normally have, so by definition that is a benefit, but again, if - I suppose I can't keep helping compare to the other sector where there is still that discrepancy, yes, there is a benefit, but there is not parity, so - - -
PN1092
But that is not what you say in your witness statement. You say essentially employees don't receive the full benefit of the - the full benefit of packaging, half the benefit goes to Yooralla?---Right.
PN1093
But we have just established, haven't we, that there is still a substantial benefit available, never mind the $5000 figure, that is a figure plucked from the air, but there is still a substantial benefit from your own experience from salary packaging?---Yes, there is a benefit to receiving salary packaging, but the conditions have changed and newer staff and casual staff don't have the same benefit as staff did previous.
PN1094
Okay. But we all know that half of nothing is nothing?---Yes.
**** POLLY LISA MORGAN XXN MR WHITE
PN1095
But half of a significant benefit would still be an attractive benefit, wouldn't it?---I would imagine it would depend on the other demands of employment or the other sectors that you were looking at and making comparisons across, and on looking at conditions.
PN1096
Yes. This benefit is not available to most employees in the economy, and so I am a bit puzzled how you can say this is not an attractive benefit for employees. If it was nothing, half of nothing is nothing, so that is fine, but if it was a benefit that has real dollars attached, getting anything more than zero has got to be an attractive option, hasn't it?---Your Honour, with - I see if we are talking about this detail I can understand how what you are saying makes sense, but in terms of the total scenario that therapists have been campaigning for, it is part of the overall picture, it is not the full picture, so it is a factor in recruitment, but it is not the sole factor.
PN1097
Do employees working for Yooralla get the - or put it this way - is there a difference in the fringe benefits tax exemption for Yooralla compared with other health care services such as hospitals?---I believe the amount - in my own experience, if I can talk about the 30 per cent figure - is similar, but my understanding is that there is a difference in gross pay for a start, and in the public system, yes, they can package 30 per cent, but it is 30 per cent over and above what - there is a differential between the gross of disability sector and public sector, so again, doing the same sort of work, what we do, there is a differential there that is more attractive for people coming out and making a decision about, well, where do we go?
PN1098
Yes, I understand, but what I am trying to understand is whether in your knowledge there is a difference in the fringe benefits tax exemption to the various employers of health care professionals?---Could you explain?
PN1099
Well, does Yooralla enjoy the same fringe benefits tax exemption as a public hospital or as a private hospital?---Fringe - does Yooralla?
**** POLLY LISA MORGAN XXN MR WHITE
PN1100
Yes?---As an organisation?
PN1101
Yes?---Not me as somebody?
PN1102
Correct. Well, in answer to an earlier question you said that your understanding was the source of the benefit of salary packaging comes from the fact that Yooralla enjoys a fringe benefits tax exemption. Now, is the fringe benefits tax exemption Yooralla receives in your knowledge the same as other employers of health care professionals?---I can't answer that, your Honour.
PN1103
Or other therapists, correctly?---I don't know. I can't answer that, even that it is a fringe benefits tax, I - - -
PN1104
So you wouldn't be aware that your employer has a greater advantage in this area than other employees?---I wouldn't be able to answer that, your Honour.
PN1105
MR WHITE: Nothing arising, if the Commission pleases.
PN1106
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Mr Langmead.
PN1107
MR LANGMEAD: No, I have no further questions. May the witness be excused?
PN1108
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes. Ms Morgan, you are excused.
PN1109
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Before you do that - - -
PN1110
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: No, do not leave, Ms Morgan, sorry.
**** POLLY LISA MORGAN XXN MR WHITE
PN1111
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Ms Morgan, is your argument that because you have been with Yooralla five years you get the full benefit of being able to salary package?---My understanding is that I - - -
PN1112
Do you get the full benefit of salary packaging?---I get the 30, yes, I do, your Honour.
PN1113
Yes. New employees who commence with Yooralla do not get the full benefit of salary packaging?---That is correct. That is my understanding.
PN1114
Your colleagues who work in the public hospital system, the public network, do you know whether they get the full benefit of salary packaging?---30 per cent, yes.
PN1115
Right. Okay. So you say that there is an inequity between existing staff and new staff in Yooralla and there is an inequity between what Yooralla applies and what the public hospital system or the public system applies?---That is my understanding, sir.
PN1116
Right. Okay. Do you say in 11, and you said in your - as part of your evidence that you interview new employees?---Yes.
PN1117
And - - -?---Perhaps successfully.
PN1118
Okay. And you tell them about the options of salary packaging?---That is part of when we - yes, yes.
PN1119
Yes. But you must explain to them as I understand what you have said, you must explain to them that 50 per cent of any benefit that they may get goes back to Yooralla?---That is correct.
**** POLLY LISA MORGAN XXN MR WHITE
PN1120
And then you have said in the last part:
PN1121
This is not an attractive option for employees and does not enhance recruitment.
PN1122
In your view if they were to get the full benefit of salary packaging, would that assist in the recruitment and retention of staff at Yooralla?---It would be one factor in the total picture, sir, yes.
PN1123
Yes, and I understand that, but would it assist in the recruitment and retention of staff at Yooralla?---I think it would assist, sir.
PN1124
Okay, thank you.
PN1125
PN1126
MR LANGMEAD: I call Lisa Dyer.
[11.23am]
PN1127
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: That was an amended statement, wasn't it?
PN1128
MR LANGMEAD: Sorry, your Honour?
PN1129
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: There was an amended statement from Ms Dyer.
PN1130
MR LANGMEAD: There is.
PN1131
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I just wanted to clarify that we are all working off the same statement. Mine is dated 31 October in terms of a fax time at 15.01.
PN1132
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Is that the one we are working one?
PN1133
PN1134
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, Mr Langmead.
PN1135
MR LANGMEAD: Thank you, your Honour. There is an amended statement dated 31 October 2002.
PN1136
Ms Dyer, could you tell the Commission your full name and address for the transcript please?---Lisa Dyer - Lisa Jane Dyer, and my address - sorry - Unit 2, 243 Waverley Road, East Malvern.
PN1137
And you are a speech pathologist?---That is correct.
PN1138
Have you made an amended statement dated 31 October 2002 for use in these proceedings?---If - I am not - I can't see the date on this one, but I - - -
PN1139
It is on the last page?---The last page. Yes, that is correct.
PN1140
Is that statement true and correct?---Yes, it is.
PN1141
PN1142
MR LANGMEAD: Ms Dyer, would you mind waiting there and this gentleman will ask you some questions.
**** LISA JANE DYER XN MR LANGMEAD
PN1143
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Mr Eberhard.
PN1144
MR EBERHARD: I think this has occurred - there has been a mistake, I think. When I advised the union that we required Ms Dyer, it was just going off the information that I had been provided, but I think when you compare it to her now amended witness statement, that had clarified a number of the concerns that I was going to raise. So again I apologise to both Ms Dyer and to the union for calling you in here today.
PN1145
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Very well. There can be no re-examination.
PN1146
MR LANGMEAD: Might Ms Dyer be excused, your Honour?
PN1147
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes?---Thank you. Bye-bye.
PN1148
PN1149
PN1150
MR LANGMEAD: Ms Malcolm, please state your name and address for the transcript please?---Amie Malcolm, 112 Bailey Road, Narre Warren North.
PN1151
What is your occupation?---I am an occupational therapist.
PN1152
Have you prepared a statement for use in these proceedings?---Yes.
PN1153
You have the statement with you, do you?---Yes.
PN1154
Yes. Can I take you to paragraph 8. You said there that therapists are paid 12.8 per cent less than their colleagues in the public sector and this has affected the recruitment and retention of therapists. Have do you know that it has affected the recruitment and retention of therapists?
PN1155
MR WHITE: I object to that question. It operates from an assumption which is not necessarily correct. We don't concede and we have seen the figures in W1 that 12.8 per cent is an incorrect figure.
PN1156
MR LANGMEAD: Ms Malcolm, how did you arrive at the figure of 12.8 per cent?---That we were behind the public sector?
PN1157
Yes?---By 12.8 per cent? It is public knowledge within our workplace that that is how far behind we are. I was working at the MS Society when we were granted parity and I know that the public sector have gone up 12.8.
PN1158
So that is your belief that that is how far you are behind?---That is my understanding.
PN1159
Why do you say that that is - also how are you able to say that that has affected the recruitment or retention of therapists?---Well, I know - - -
**** AMIE MALCOLM XN MR LANGMEAD
PN1160
MR WHITE: Well, I still object to the question. If the point of the question is that discrepancy in wages affects the recruitment and retention, I don't object. I just don't concede that the percentages that the witness is talking about are correct, but if the question is asked more generally, I don't object.
PN1161
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes. Yes, can you ask the question more generally without focusing on the exact 12.8 per cent.
PN1162
MR LANGMEAD: My difficulty is that the witness believes that is the figure, but - - -
PN1163
MR WHITE: Look, I - - -
PN1164
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Well, you proceed and we will give the evidence the weight that we think is appropriate.
PN1165
MR LANGMEAD: Ms Malcolm, I will tell you that the government takes issue with the figure of 12.8 per cent. I don't believe they take issue that there is a discrepancy. If we can proceed on the basis that there is a discrepancy, are you saying that whatever the discrepancy is, you believe it to be 12.8, but that discrepancy has affected the recruitment and retention of therapists?---Yes.
PN1166
Yes. Can you say how it is that you say that it has affected the recruitment and retention of therapists and how do you know that?---Yes. At the start of the year at the MS Society, we had six occupational therapists and a senior clinician on top of that, so that was equivalent to seven occupational therapists, and at one point during the year we went down to two occupational therapists, and because I work quite closely with some of these - my colleagues, I am of the understanding that part of the reason of their leaving, a primary reason, was the wages and conditions.
[11.31am]
**** AMIE MALCOLM XN MR LANGMEAD
PN1167
How did you acquire that understanding? Did they tell you?---Yes.
PN1168
Do you know where they went?---Into public hospitals, private practice.
PN1169
In the next sentence you say that:
PN1170
Staff experience increased frustration levels and decreased morale due to this inequity in wages and conditions.
PN1171
Are you able to say how you know that?---Through conversations that I have with my colleagues. We regularly talk about our awards and conditions, because we are consultants often to therapists in the public sector. So as consultants we are drawn upon for our specialist knowledge of what we have about MS and other neurological conditions. So we interact a lot with therapists in the public sector. And so the conversation in our workplace is around how we are consulting with people who are often paid higher than what we are, yet they are drawing upon our specialist knowledge.
PN1172
PN1173
MR LANGMEAD: Ms Malcolm, would you mind waiting for these gentlemen to ask you questions.
PN1174
**** AMIE MALCOLM XXN EBERHARD
PN1175
MR EBERHARD: Ms Malcolm, a couple of quick questions. Firstly, in paragraph 5, you state there that the MS Society operates from two sites, one at Footscray and one at Blackburn?---Yes.
PN1176
There has been some recent relocation in regards to the MS Society. Can you explain what has occurred in that situation there?---In regards to our relocation?
PN1177
The relocation?---We had two sites, one at Footscray and one at Camberwell, and in January of this year the Camberwell site moved to Blackburn, and we were also leasing a site in Toorak. So the Camberwell and Toorak sites combined to move to Blackburn.
PN1178
I should also say that there has also been a revised system of operation introduced at the MS Society, has there not?---That is correct.
PN1179
Following on the lines of the questions that Mr Langmead has asked, in discussing the resignations with the four occupational therapists, did they also state that during - that as a result of their resignations that they were attributing those also to their family and personal reasons?---Some of them did have family and personal reasons for moving on, but conditions were also a part of that decision, I believe.
PN1180
But it was not - the sole reason for resignation was not the conditions: there was also the relocation of the various sites, the family and personal circumstances of individual employees, they were also a contributing factor to the resignations of those - of at least two of those four occupational therapists?---Well, two of them were relocated from Camberwell to Blackburn, but they stayed - their resignations were not until - they weren't immediately after the relocation. They were probably at least six months down the track. So the relocation might have been a minor factor, but I can't say how much of a contributing factor that was.
PN1181
But the relocation and the revised system was certainly a factor in at least two of the four resignations, as was family and personal reasons?---They all contributed to some extent.
**** AMIE MALCOLM XXN EBERHARD
PN1182
Okay, thank you.
PN1183
PN1184
MR WHITE: Ms Malcolm, have you read in these proceedings the statement made by Ms Cresshull?---No. Sorry, who was it?
PN1185
Erin Cresshull. Do you know Erin Cresshull?---No.
PN1186
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: A well known personality.
PN1187
MR WHITE: Perhaps if Ms Malcolm could be shown paragraph 25 of Ms Cresshull's statement. Paragraph 25. We will try and get a spare copy to show. I would prefer if we could show Ms Cresshull this one. It has handwriting on it recording extra - - -
PN1188
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: It is all right. I don't feel rejected, Mr White.
PN1189
MR WHITE: I wasn't picking on you, Commissioner.
PN1190
Ms Malcolm, do you see there that Ms Cresshull, who holds the position of an Industrial Officer with the Number 3 Branch of the HSUA, talks in her statement about the pay rises which have been on top of the pay rates given in the 2000 MX award: do you see that?---Yes.
PN1191
And there is some handwriting there as well, and it records that there was an extra 3 per cent granted in December 2000, backdated to October 2000: do you see that?---Yes.
**** AMIE MALCOLM XXN MR WHITE
PN1192
To the best of your knowledge, is that, when you add up those five increases, is that the 12.8 per cent of which you talk in your statement, in paragraph 8?---I haven't seen the figures of when each of these increments were being put in. I can only go by what is on print here.
PN1193
You can only go on what you have been told?---Mm.
PN1194
And can I suggest - well, have you been told that it is 12-1/2 per cent by the union, or union publications, or officers of the union?---Yes.
PN1195
Ms Malcolm, what classification are you, do you know?---My grading?
PN1196
Yes?---I am a Grade 2 Year 1.
PN1197
Are you aware, Ms Malcolm, that the Grade 2 Year 1 annual salary is $42,801.73?---I knew it was about that.
PN1198
Or thereabouts. Have you ever been told - are you aware that the public sector level of pay for Grade 2 Year 1 is $47,139.77?---I knew it was about that.
PN1199
Have you ever been told, more importantly, that if the Government funding offer was applied to your salary, that your salary would increase to $46,769.45?---I haven't worked out the exact figures.
PN1200
But have you ever been told that the increase based on a Government figure would deliver that amount of money, or thereabouts?---I knew that we were going to be 3.8 per cent short of parity with the public sector.
PN1201
You have never done the figures?---I didn't work out the figures.
**** AMIE MALCOLM XXN MR WHITE
PN1202
You see, there is only a few hundred dollars annual difference between the - $370 annual difference between what the public sector worker equivalently graded gets, and what you would get if the Government offer was accepted: do you accept that?---I don't have the figures in front of me.
PN1203
Assuming that $370 - - -
PN1204
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: I am just looking at the two figures. It is $7.
PN1205
MR WHITE: I didn't take the point 8 per cent off.
PN1206
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Okay.
PN1207
MR WHITE: If one removed the point 8 per cent, then it does reduce.
PN1208
But even at $370 per annum, you don't believe, do you, that that would adversely affect recruitment at the MS Society?---Well, the salary is one component to recruitment at the MS Society.
PN1209
To the extent that that salary is a component, you don't believe, do you, that an annual difference of $370 would adversely affect - - -?---Yes. There is a statewide shortage of occupational therapists at the moment, and if OTs are going to be going for jobs, salary comes into their decision making.
PN1210
Are you aware that point 8 of the pay rise awarded to public sector workers - we will go to that now - was awarded in lieu of their capacity to salary package?---No.
[11.42am]
**** AMIE MALCOLM XXN MR WHITE
PN1211
I have no further questions. Well, only to ask for the piece of paper back. Thank you, Ms Malcolm.
PN1212
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: Can I just ask, is salary packaging available to you?---Yes.
PN1213
Do you participate?---Yes.
PN1214
Is it a benefit?---Yes, but I believe that there are many other areas under - more to do with the conditions that the public sector have that I am not benefiting from.
PN1215
So you are saying that - it is coming back to what you said before, that salary is only one component in the decision about whether an employee works here or somewhere else?---Yes, I mean, study leave and maternity leave would also be conditions that I would take into consideration about staying in my position at the moment.
PN1216
In participating in salary packaging what categories of expenditure are you able to apply packaging to? What can you pay out of the salary packaging?---I - my husband studies, so I was paying his college fees.
PN1217
Right?--- - - - out of my packaging.
PN1218
Is that the only sort of category of expenditure you can apply packaging to?---No, it is not the only one that I am allowed to put the packaging into, but that is the one that has worked out for us as a couple.
PN1219
And what other items are in the available categories?---I believe that paying off credit cards comes into it, which I have utilised on a couple of occasions; bills - - -
**** AMIE MALCOLM XXN MR WHITE
PN1220
Any sort of bills?---I don't know the full details. I just saw what - you know, I looked down the list and saw what would suit my situation and the credit card and the college education costs were the ones. With the college costs we know that is coming to an end, I will probably move to the credit card.
PN1221
And in your knowledge is there a limit on how much you can devote to salary packaging?---30 per cent.
PN1222
30 per cent of?---30 per cent of my total wage.
PN1223
Right. Yes, okay. So, 30 per cent of your total wage can be allocated towards salary packaging?---Yes, that is correct.
PN1224
And from that you can pay probably - well, it is from that you can pay really anything, on what you have said?---I won't know the full list, but college costs and credit card, whatever I choose to put on that, I would say.
PN1225
Yes. So there is a substantial taxation advantage to you through salary packaging?---Yes.
PN1226
And you must have worked out the numbers at some stage?---My accountant, yes.
PN1227
Right, okay. So you satisfied yourselves that there was a substantial advantage?---There was an advantage to me in my personal circumstances to take up salary packaging, but it is not equal across the board. Because we have had problems recruiting staff we haven't been able to get permanent staff at the MS Society, so we have got three permanent occupational therapists, we have had to fill the other vacant positions with locums, and I know that salary packaging isn't available to them.
**** AMIE MALCOLM XXN MR WHITE
PN1228
Thank you.
PN1229
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Do you get the full benefit of salary packaging? Do you have to pay the administration fee to the MS Society, or do you have to give any of your salary packaging benefits back?---I don't have to give any back, but I pay an administration fee.
PN1230
What is your administration fee, can you recall?---I don't know exactly. I would have to look up the records, but I think it is around $200 or $270 a year.
PN1231
Right, so what is that, 1, 2 per cent, 3 per cent of what your benefits would be through salary packaging; less?---Sorry, I - - -
PN1232
No, that is okay?---It would be about one or less.
PN1233
But you pay about 200, $270?---That is right.
PN1234
Other than that there is an administration fee, you get the full benefit of salary packaging?---Yes.
PN1235
Thank you.
PN1236
MR WHITE: I only have one further question.
PN1237
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: All right, Mr White.
PN1238
MR WHITE: Can I direct your attention to the last - I am sorry, I have nothing further.
**** AMIE MALCOLM XXN MR WHITE
PN1239
PN1240
MR LANGMEAD: Ms Malcolm, in - you referred to the difficulties of recruiting therapists. Are they all full-time positions?---No, no. I mean, we want full-time staff, but we have recruited - we had vacancies for quite a long time and for example our physiotherapist has - we have had a vacancy since December last year, and at the time of writing this statement, and I don't know what has happened in the meantime, but there had been no interest expressed for that position,m so that is still vacant. The occupational therapists that we have recruited, one permanent full-time, and that took four months to recruit, and now we have had one full-time locum at Footscray, one - and two part-time locums at Blackburn and even our senior clinician is in a locum position or a fixed-term contract.
PN1241
Is that person in full-time or part-time?---She is full-time. I myself am in a part-time position.
PN1242
Sorry?---I myself am in a part-time position.
PN1243
You are part-time?---Mm.
PN1244
How many hours do you work?---I work 30.8 hours a week.
PN1245
30.8?---Yes.
PN1246
Thank you, Ms Malcolm?---Thank you.
PN1247
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: Can I just ask you what superannuation arrangements you have?---8 per cent as far as I know is going to super.
**** AMIE MALCOLM RXN MR LANGMEAD:
PN1248
So your employer pays 8 per cent of your gross salary into a superannuation fund?---Yes.
PN1249
Do you pay any contributions yourself?---No.
PN1250
PN1251
PN1252
MR LANGMEAD: Ms Kleinitz, can you state your name and address for the transcript please?---Yes. My name is Pauline Kleinitz and I live at 26 Munro Street actually - Munro Street in Brunswick.
PN1253
And what is your occupation?---I am a physiotherapist.
PN1254
Have you prepared a statement for use in these proceedings?---Sorry?
PN1255
Have you prepared a statement for use in these proceedings?---Yes, a witness statement.
PN1256
Do you have that with you?---Yes, I do.
PN1257
I understand in paragraph 2 that the reference - the second sentence is roundabout and you work three days a week at Broad Insight and two days a week at Royal Children's Hospital; is that right?---That is right, yes.
PN1258
And subject to that correction, is your statement true and correct?---Yes. I just noticed there is something in paragraph 9, it is just a slight alteration about how often I meet with my manager and, in fact, it is more like once - it is actually once a term, not once a month.
PN1259
Sorry, once a?---Term, school term. So that is four times a year.
PN1260
Subject to those corrections, it is true and correct?---Yes.
PN1261
Yes, I tender that.
**** PAULINE KLEINITZ XN MR LANGMEAD
PN1262
MR WHITE: I object to the -
PN1263
MR LANGMEAD: I am sorry, I have a further question - trouble with working off two documents.
PN1264
Ms Kleinitz, could I ask you to look at paragraph 12?---Yes.
PN1265
Can you explain why you say that it is not an area of work that attracts health professionals due to the lower rates of pay, lesser conditions and poor staffing levels? How do you know that?---I know that because I speak to many people. I am in contact with a lot of people who would consider working in this field, but who - and I know myself it is not as attractive because the other - particularly the Specialist Children's Services that are part of the DHS salaries, they are a lot higher, and I know - I can name, you know, friends, colleagues, who would agree, you know, that it would be in preference.
PN1266
Have they said that to you, have they?---Yes.
PN1267
Yes. Who has said that to you?---Yes, who said that to me? Charlinda Parsons, who is an occupational therapist.
PN1268
PN1269
MR LANGMEAD: Ms Kleinitz, I understand that salary packaging is offered by Broad Insight; is that correct?---Yes, it is.
**** PAULINE KLEINITZ XN MR LANGMEAD
PN1270
Is there any constraints on how you can utilise salary packaging?---Yes, there are. There is quite a few constraints. I guess I can go through those constraints. First of all, for - these don't all apply directly to me, but apply to my colleagues. People who are working part-time and less - and earn less than 15,000 per annum, are not able to access our salary packaging. People who are not permanent positions in our centre, people who are casual or are locums, are not able to access salary packaging. People like myself - this does concern me - who still have a HECS bill, have to actually - I do salary package, but because I still have a HECS bill, I actually have to get additional tax taken out of my salary every fortnight so that I don't have over $2000 owing at the end of this financial year to pay off my HECS. And - - -
PN1271
I am sorry, I don't understand, how does that affect your salary packaging?---Because HECS is worked out on that - on your - I believe it is like the gross salary, and so the amount of tax that is taken out when I salary package does not cover my HECS debt. Is that clear?
PN1272
No, not to me, but apparently it is to everyone else. I see Senior Deputy President Cartwright wisely nodding, so - - -?---Yes. It is actually - it is a bit of a - yes, it is a bit of a problem because I - - -
PN1273
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: It has got nothing to do with salary packaging though, has it?---Yes, it just means that you don't get quite - it is not - I mean, when the tax - when your taxable income comes down, it can look better - I mean, obviously it is - in some ways it still helps, but it doesn't - it can look better than it is. You still have to get this additional HECS tax taken out.
PN1274
Yes. Because you have got a HECS bill, presumably no matter what your salary was, you would have to adjust the amount of tax taken out to avoid having an extra tax bill to pay the HECS at the end of the year?---I think without the packaging it tends to be enough anyway, that is all, but you know, it is coming out prior to packaging, an adequate amount of tax that was taken from my salary, it was enough to HECS, so I didn't have an actual bill at the end of the financial year, whereas with the packaging - - -
**** PAULINE KLEINITZ XN MR LANGMEAD
PN1275
Your training didn't include the section on the time value of money?---Sorry?
PN1276
We won't go there.
PN1277
MR LANGMEAD: I think I understand that your HECS is assessed on your pre-packaged salary; is that right?---Yes. Yes.
PN1278
Yes, okay. Now, you said that part-timers who earn less than $15,000 per annum weren't eligible?---That is right.
PN1279
Are there many of those employed by Broad Insight?---Out of the seven therapy staff, that includes three occupational - sorry - three speech pathologists, two occupational therapists, myself, a physio and a music therapist, of those seven I believe two, who are part-time, one is sessional and one is only one day a week. I am under - I would imagine that they are not eligible and are not using salary packaging. So that is two out of seven.
PN1280
And you also referred to casuals and locums?---That is right.
PN1281
Do you have any of those?---Not at the moment. I guess - no, the sessional - yes. But I think, you know, there has been in the past, but not at the moment.
PN1282
Thank you, Ms Kleinitz. I am waiting for these gentlemen to ask you questions.
PN1283
**** PAULINE KLEINITZ XXN MR WHITE
PN1284
MR WHITE: Ms Kleinitz, you say in paragraph 12 of your statement that you stay in the sector because you appreciate the close relationship you are able to develop with families, that the work is very interesting and therapeutically it is the most important time for children with disabilities. For how long have you stayed in the sector?---I have been in the disability sector - I guess when I refer to this sector I am actually - or this - in some ways I am probably saying this job, which is early intervention. So that is that age group from zero to six, which are - you know, that I am sort of making that statement about. The actual disability sector I have been in for - since 1996.
PN1285
What year did you graduate?---'92.
PN1286
1992?---End of '92.
PN1287
Now, you say, and I think you have repeated in your oral evidence today, that it is your belief and friends' and colleagues' belief that the DHS salary is a lot higher than that offered - - -?---In the specialist children's part is exceptionally higher than what I get at the moment, which is - at the moment I am actually getting paid 20 per cent less than what I would get even in the public sector.
PN1288
All right. Do you work full time?---I work at three days a week at Broad Insight and two days at the Royal Children's Hospital, within the Royal Children's Hospital. So it is - it works - it is not quite.
PN1289
All right. Now, have you ever done the sums separately to arrive at that 20 per cent figure?---Yes, I did them this morning.
PN1290
Yes, and did you do that by comparing your salary from Broad Insight and then salary from the Children's Hospital. Is that - - -?---Yes, it is.
PN1291
Now, what classification do you have at Broad Insight?---I think it is - I am sure it is grade 2, year 4.
**** PAULINE KLEINITZ XXN MR WHITE
PN1292
Grade 2, year 4. And is that the same classification you have - - -?---At the public - - -
PN1293
- - - at the Royal Children's?---Yes.
PN1294
Are you aware then that the annual salary for a grade 2, year 4 in the disability sector, so at Broad Insight, is $49,903.19?---49 - I am - no, I am not sure of that but - - -
PN1295
Are you aware that the rate for a grade 2, year 4 in the public sector $54,960.77?---Yes.
PN1296
I am not going to hold you to - - -?---No. Yes, I am pretty - - -
PN1297
Per cent or two?---I would imagine if that is the exact figures, then - - -
PN1298
Have you been told that if the government offer was applied to your salary it would increase to $54,529.22?---My Broad Insight salary, sorry?
PN1299
Yes?---I am - - -
PN1300
If you were working full-time. We are talking annual salaries?---Yes, I am aware that - yes, I guess it would probably increase if - increase to that. Of course - - -
PN1301
So you would agree then on those assumptions that the annual difference between the public sector and what the Broad Insight sector salary would be would be approximately four to five hundred dollars?---In which direction, sorry?
**** PAULINE KLEINITZ XXN MR WHITE
PN1302
Well, the sums are there. Would you consider, Ms Kleinitz, that an annual difference of salary of approximately $400 is appropriately described as a big difference or a person receiving the higher of those two sums could be appropriately described as being paid a lot higher? That is about $8 a week?---No, that is not a lot higher for someone in this - you know, who is able to - yes, meet that.
PN1303
Can I draw your attention to the last sentence in paragraph 12 of your statement. By that sentence do you mean that if you had not chosen to do what you have chosen to do, you would have chosen to do something else that paid more?---I am just reading it. I guess what I am saying in that sentence is - - -
PN1304
No. Can you answer my question. Do you mean by that sentence what I just put to you, that is, that if you had not chosen to do what you have chosen to do, you would have chosen to do something else that paid more? Do you agree with that or not?---As long as it meant the other criteria, I guess, you know, that is important to me.
PN1305
I have no further questions.
PN1306
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Mr Langmead.
PN1307
MR LANGMEAD: Would the Commission just pardon me a moment while I seek some instructions.
PN1308
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, certainly.
PN1309
MR LANGMEAD: Thank you. We have no further questions.
PN1310
PN1311
MR LANGMEAD: We have prepared an amended witness statement for this next witness which was only given to Mr White and his instructors just before 10 o'clock this morning and he tells me he hasn't had the opportunity to look at it and we therefore seek a five minute adjournment so that he has that opportunity.
PN1312
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, certainly. Any objection to that?
PN1313
MR WHITE: No, certainly not; quite the contrary.
PN1314
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Very difficult for you to object, Mr White. All right. We will adjourn until 12.15.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT [12.09pm]
RESUMED [12.19pm]
PN1315
MR LANGMEAD: I understand an amended copy of the statement has been handed to the Bench.
PN1316
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, thank you.
PN1317
MR LANGMEAD: My friend and I have agreed on a further alteration to paragraph 13, just to delete on the third line 26 per cent - 26 whatever it was, I can't read it, I have crossed it out, and "pay" should be singular, not "pays".
PN1318
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Sorry, what paragraph?
PN1319
MR LANGMEAD: Paragraph 13, your Honour.
PN1320
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, I am there now.
PN1321
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: 26.8 per cent.
PN1322
MR LANGMEAD: Third line, 26.8, and the "s" on the end of "pays" could be deleted and the next line the words "up to 50 per cent" should be deleted.
PN1323
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes.
PN1324
PN1325
MR LANGMEAD: Ms Crompton, can you tell the Commission your name and address for the sake of transcript, please?---Okay, it is Jodi Louise Crompton and my address is 65 Budd Street, Collingwood.
PN1326
And what is your occupation?---I am a physiotherapist.
PN1327
Have you prepared an amended witness statement for use in these proceedings?---Yes.
PN1328
And can I tell you that - to satisfy an objection from the government we have agreed to delete two parts of paragraph 13 which is on the third line, the deletion of the 26.8 per cent and on the fourth line, the deletion of up to 50 per cent. Okay?---Yes.
PN1329
Now, subject to those corrections is your statement - amended statement true and correct?---Yes.
PN1330
PN1331
MR LANGMEAD: Ms Crompton, is salary packaging offered to you at Yooralla?---Yes, it is.
PN1332
Do you avail yourself of it?---Yes, I do.
PN1333
How much do you salary package?---Up to 15,000, 30 per cent of my salary, whatever is the greatest amount.
**** JODI LOUISE CROMPTON XN MR LANGMEAD
PN1334
Are there any constraints on how people can access salary packaging?---If you are a casual employee you can't, it you are part-time or full-time, you can.
PN1335
Is there any income level you have to achieve in order to utilise it?---I have been advised that under $15,000 per annum it is not worth your while to salary package.
PN1336
We heard earlier evidence that Yooralla takes 50 per cent of the benefit of salary packaging, does that happen to you?---No, because I undertook salary packaging before that system was put in place.
PN1337
So when did you first start salary packaging?---It was in 2000, the year 2000.
PN1338
Is salary packaging available from the Royal Children's Hospital?---Yes, it is.
PN1339
Thank you, Ms Crompton, do you mind waiting there, these gentlemen might have some questions for you.
PN1340
PN1341
MR WHITE: Thank you, you Honour.
PN1342
Do you know what level of salary packaging is available at the Children's Hospital?---I haven't looked into it recently but I understand that it is less than what would be available to me through Yooralla.
PN1343
Ms Crompton, can I just get clear in my own mind your current employment arrangements. Is it the case that you are employed part-time by the Royal Children's Hospital?---Mm.
**** JODI LOUISE CROMPTON XXN MR WHITE
PN1344
And in that employment your work at Westarc?---Yes.
PN1345
And you are employed by part-time by Yooralla?---Yes.
PN1346
And for that employment you work at the Glenroy specialists?---I work in Outreach with a base a Glenroy. Some of my employment takes place at the Glenroy Specialist School but the majority of my work with Yooralla is in Outreach, which is in mainstream schools or specialists schools that employ Yooralla.
PN1347
Is it true to say that in respect of your employment at Yooralla 100 per cent of it is in relation to schools and students with needs in schools?---That is the job, that is my role.
PN1348
Yes. All of the schools that you visit for - at which you see students are Department of Education schools?---The Department of Education operates all schools, specialists and special and mainstream, so yes.
PN1349
And it is the case, is it not, that Yooralla have contracted to either the Department of Education or the particular schools to provide the service for the students in the schools?---The other way around. The schools have contracted in Yooralla to provide a service to their students.
PN1350
Right. And the schools pay Yooralla for the provision of that service?---Yes, they do.
PN1351
Are you aware that the funding the schools have comes from the Department of Education?---Yes, I am.
PN1352
Have Yooralla ever told you that they were unable to meet the HSUA claim because the Department of Human Services was increasing its funding offer sufficient to meet the claim?---Sorry, I don't understand the question.
**** JODI LOUISE CROMPTON XXN MR WHITE
PN1353
What is - have Yooralla or any representative of management from Yooralla told you that the reason that they have not agreed to the HSUA claim is that the Department of Human Services aren't providing sufficient funds to enable them to meet the claim?---No, but all the employees who do the same job that I do are employed casually. I have managed to negotiate part-time because - - -
PN1354
No, can you just stop there and just concentrate on the question that I asked?---Well the question is related to what I was trying to tell you.
PN1355
Well, Mr Langmead, if it is related, might ask you questions later but do I take it that your answer to my question is that Yooralla has never told you that the reason they can't afford, or don't want to pay the HSUA claim is that the DHS hasn't approved funding to enable them to do so?---Well, I haven't discussed it with management, no.
PN1356
So you have got no idea why it is that Yooralla haven't met the HSUA claim?---Well, I haven't spoken to my direct manager about it, no.
PN1357
In relation to your work at Westarc, are you aware of the contractual arrangements between Westarc and the Royal Children's Hospital in relation to the provision of your services?---Not the finite details.
PN1358
Is it the case that Westarc reimburse the Royal Children's Hospital for your services?---Yes.
PN1359
It follows then that Westarc pays - - -?---Yes.
PN1360
- - - the appropriate public sector rates?---Yes.
PN1361
Are you aware whether the Royal Children's Hospital adds, on top of the wages that is paid to it by Westarc an administration fee in respect of providing your services?---They do.
**** JODI LOUISE CROMPTON XXN MR WHITE
PN1362
Are you aware of what that administration or other fee is?---No.
PN1363
Thank you. I have no further questions.
PN1364
PN1365
MR LANGMEAD: Ms Crompton, you were telling the Commission something when Mr White brought you back to ask - answering his question. Can you explain what you wanted to say?---Prior to the year 2000 I was employed casually. Yooralla's Outreach program is not supported by the DHS to provide therapy services to students are in an integrated setting. So they employed all their staff casually. They negotiated a permanent part-time position for me to retain me within Yooralla. [12.29pm]
PN1366
I have no further questions, your Honour.
PN1367
PN1368
PN1369
MR LANGMEAD: Mr Bell, for the purposes of the transcript could you state your name and address, please?---It is Derek Bell, and the address is 215 Ballarat Road, Footscray.
PN1370
And what is your occupation?---Disability support worker. I am a house supervisor.
PN1371
Have you prepared a statement for use in these proceedings?---I have, yes.
PN1372
Is that statement true and correct?---There is a correction I would like to make, if I may.
PN1373
Yes?---It is on - at point 10 on page 4.
PN1374
That is dot point 10, is it?---It is the fourth paragraph down, the one concerning - under the general direction of physiotherapist.
PN1375
Yes. What is the correction you wish to make there, Mr Bell?---I don't - in my job I have never done anything to do with hydrotherapy.
PN1376
So if we delete: Run hydrotherapy sessions including - sorry, run hydrotherapy sessions is that inaccurate?---That is inaccurate.
PN1377
Yes, I tender that.
PN1378
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: Certainly. Does that mean that that whole document comes out?
**** DEREK JACK BELL XN MR LANGMEAD
PN1379
MR LANGMEAD: No, your Honour, just the words "run hydrotherapy sessions".
PN1380
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: It doesn't make sense.
PN1381
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: No.
PN1382
MR LANGMEAD: Which doesn't make sense, yes.
PN1383
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Is it:
PN1384
Under the general direction of physiotherapist or other suitably qualified person conduct exercise and activity sessions.
PN1385
Is that - - -?---That would be more correct.
PN1386
Yes.
PN1387
MR LANGMEAD: Thank you, Commissioner. It is the arithmetic of young people, the grammar of the old ones.
PN1388
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, yes.
PN1389
**** DEREK JACK BELL XN MR LANGMEAD
PN1390
MR LANGMEAD: Mr Bell, would you mind waiting while this gentleman asked his questions.
PN1391
PN1392
MR EBERHARD: Thank you, your Honour. Mr Bell, can I take you to the dot point just after the dot point that you just mentioned, which is the fifth dot point, at paragraph 10 of your statement?---Mm.
PN1393
In which you state that under general direction you have managed the activities of a small therapy workshop or attend the day program service?---Mm.
PN1394
Can I put it to you that that is not actually a function that is required to do as the day program service and the therapy workshops are public services provided by Yooralla, but they don't fall within the realm of the grade 3 person and the grade 4 person, that is you refer to in your statement?---Well, as I understood it, as I understood how this worked is that we would follow directions as given by a qualified health professional such as a physiotherapist.
PN1395
So it is really - you are really saying that you - so in the sense of that point 4 which was the point that you clarified before, again, we probably need to include the words "under general direction of a health professional"?---Yes.
PN1396
Insert that into point 5?---Mm.
PN1397
But yet in point 6, which - is that the point following?---Mm.
PN1398
You refer to:
**** DEREK JACK BELL XXN MR EBERHARD
PN1399
Lead and/or assist in assessing clients' suitability for certain programs -
PN1400
etcetera. Again the information that I have received is that that is not a function that is directly required of you. What do you say to that?---I would say the assist part is the key there, that we do have to assist in those programs.
PN1401
So again, in that instance you would assist, you wouldn't lead the provision of that service?---Well, we would be guided by the health professionals.
PN1402
Again, then, the second last dot point on the same page?---Mm.
PN1403
Negotiate with client services regional teams to achieve desired placement of clients.
PN1404
I would put it to you that that again is not a direct responsibility of the classifications of employees that you have referred to in point 10?---It is not a direct - but we do liaise with other professionals, community access workers for example.
PN1405
So you liaise but you don't necessarily negotiate to achieve a desired outcome?---The negotiation would be probably more the service manager or a professional.
PN1406
Okay. Can I take you to page 6 of your statement now?---Mm.
PN1407
The last three dot points in paragraph 11, which is actually the second, third and fourth dot point from the top on page 6:
PN1408
..independently run a recreational or social program.
**** DEREK JACK BELL XXN MR EBERHARD
PN1409
Again, each of those three dot points which talks about running the recreational program, paraphrasing in the next one:
PN1410
Written reports on programs.
PN1411
and again paraphrasing in the next one:
PN1412
Supervise a group of direct care staff providing day programs.
PN1413
Again, is that an accurate assessment of your functions?---It would be accurate to the point that we do have to liaise with these professionals. It is not accurate as in they design and implement these programs, if that is what you are getting at.
PN1414
No, that is fine. Thank you. I have no further questions.
PN1415
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Mr White, nothing further? Mr Langmead.
PN1416
MR LANGMEAD: No re-examination, your Honour.
PN1417
PN1418
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Mr Langmead, what - at what pay point would Mr Bell be on W1?
PN1419
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Is that category covered by W1?
PN1420
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Is that covered in that?
PN1421
MR LANGMEAD: That is health professionals, your Honour.
PN1422
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Okay, sorry.
PN1423
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: No. Only health professionals.
PN1424
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: It is all right.
[12.38pm]
PN1425
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Mr Langmead, can you help me before we turn to the next witness, and maybe I should appropriately be asking this later so you can take it on notice, just tell me where in the documentation I can find a matrix or a table setting out the wage rates for other than health professionals. We don't seem to have a W1 for the other classifications covered by the claim. I just can't put my finger on it, but take that on notice because I don't need it this minute.
PN1426
MR LANGMEAD: Yes.
PN1427
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Is that attached to Ms Cresshull's witness statement?
PN1428
MR LANGMEAD: I think I am getting instructions that there is an attachment which shows in weekly terms - sorry - it is, in fact - I think it appears in several places, but - - -
PN1429
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Okay, that is the back of HSUA1. You have got Health and Allied Services Classifications; is that the one?
PN1430
MR LANGMEAD: Pages 16 and 17.
PN1431
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Of HSUA1.
PN1432
MR LANGMEAD: Of HSUA1.
PN1433
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, thank you. Thank you very much. I knew it was an attachment to one of the exhibits and I just couldn't place - - -
PN1434
MR LANGMEAD: That doesn't show the - - -
PN1435
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: No, that doesn't show the offer.
PN1436
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: No, it doesn't, no.
PN1437
MR LANGMEAD: - - - present salary.
PN1438
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: No. I am looking for a W1 for the other classifications, if I can shorthand it in that way.
PN1439
MR WHITE: We will undertake to provide one and we will show it to my learned friend and his instructors to see if it can be an agreed document.
PN1440
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Thank you.
PN1441
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I thought the material might be contained in the exhibit that the Department did provide.
PN1442
MR WHITE: Sorry, your Honour?
PN1443
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I thought it might be in the spreadsheets that were the agreed documents arising out of the conferences before me, but I couldn't place it. I think that would be useful for everybody if we could have a common table that everybody could work off in respect of all the claims and the offer made. So thank you for that offer, Mr White.
PN1444
MR LANGMEAD: I think we have obviated the need to call Mr Puttyfoot, we are just checking with Mr Eberhard about that, and that being so, the next witness will take some time and it may be a convenient time.
PN1445
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, who is the next witness because on my list - - -
PN1446
MR LANGMEAD: I am sorry, no, the - - -
PN1447
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: - - - Mr Puttyfoot was the - was number 15.
PN1448
MR LANGMEAD: The list has outlived its usefulness now, your Honour. There is a Ms Coughlan, a Mr Scates and there may be another witness whose name I don't know arising from somebody else's inability to come along.
PN1449
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I see. Have we got witness statements from Ms Coughlan and Mr Scates?
PN1450
MR LANGMEAD: You do, your Honour.
PN1451
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: That is all right, we will find them.
PN1452
MR LANGMEAD: Ms Coughlan is - - -
PN1453
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I admit I was focussing on the order of witnesses provided yesterday.
PN1454
MR LANGMEAD: Yes.
PN1455
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So perhaps that will give us a chance to re-read them over the lunch hour.
PN1456
MR LANGMEAD: Yes, your Honour.
PN1457
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So the other witness - you are not in a position to tell us the witness's name so we can read the statement?
PN1458
MR LANGMEAD: There is no statement.
PN1459
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: It will be a substitute witness.
PN1460
MR LANGMEAD: Yes.
PN1461
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: So Coughlan and Scates?
PN1462
MR LANGMEAD: And Scates. Coughlan is number 14 and Scates's is 17.
PN1463
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Thank you.
PN1464
MR LANGMEAD: We also have some additional amended witness statements which hopefully may overcome objections that my friend has to portions of them which we will deal with after lunch as well.
PN1465
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, thank you for that. Would that be a convenient time to adjourn?
PN1466
MR LANGMEAD: It would, your Honour, yes.
PN1467
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Will 2.15 be convenient to everybody? We will adjourn until 2.15.
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.45pm]
RESUMED [2.19pm]
PN1468
MR WHITE: If the Commission pleases. In relation to the summons that was issued, we have now documents which satisfy item number 2, which is the responses received from the employees, and that is responses to item number 1. Now, item number 1 is just the blank forms, I think, which were sent out. So items 1 and 2 are comprehended in the document which is now being produced to the Commission, copies of which have been given to the parties.
PN1469
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So, can you tell me again, Mr White, now I have got the summons in front of me, the material I am being handed, evidence volume 1 relates to what?
PN1470
MR WHITE: I think two volumes are the same - - -
PN1471
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I see. Volume 1 and volume 2 - is that the two volumes?
PN1472
MR WHITE: Yes. One is in relation to a survey of 2001, and one is a more recent survey. But in terms of compliance with the summons, item 1 is just the blank forms that were sent out. But the blank forms filled in comprise item 2.
PN1473
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Okay. And what about item 3?
PN1474
MR WHITE: We are not in a position yet, but tomorrow morning we will have it. So, I don't know there is a formal order made as to confidentiality, or what. I think some of the employer representatives were going to address the Commission, after they have had an opportunity to speak to their respective constituents.
PN1475
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Does any employer representative wish to make a submission?
PN1476
MR EBERHARD: Your Honour, I think Mr Parsons had indicated this morning that he would be in a position where he needed to speak to his clients with respect to the evidence that has now been put before the Commission.
PN1477
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes.
PN1478
MR EBERHARD: Could I just make a suggestion? In previous proceedings before the Commission there has not been any orders given, but the Commission has ordered that the transcript itself becomes a in-confidence document. And it may well be appropriate that with respect to any comments that are made with respect to the material that has been supplied in regards to the employer surveys, that the transcript itself also becomes confidential, and would not be available to sources other than those sources directly involved in these proceedings.
PN1479
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes. We will issue an order with respect to the material produced, that is the material that has been handed up this afternoon, and we will consider the material in point 3 in due course. And when the material becomes the subject matter of transcript, I think it would be open to any party then to seek to have that transcript to be kept in-confidence. Is that convenient to everybody?
PN1480
MR MEDINA: I think, your Honour, that I have the same difficulty with my clients. They were concerned about the confidentiality of their information provided. Therefore, up to this point they have not provided me with the information. I think if the confidentiality was assured, I think that would take away their problem.
PN1481
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes. Well, I have indicated that at this stage it is our intention later on this afternoon to issue an order, that the Commission orders that the material produced in response to the summons to witness served by the HSUA and Mr Brian Sullivan, etcetera, is confidential to the representatives of the parties in this matter, and shall not be reproduced or published without the further order of the Commission.
PN1482
MR MEDINA: I am sure that will be satisfactory. If your Honour pleases.
PN1483
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Well, once signed, we will make copies of that order available to all parties, so they can deal with their members or clients. Thank you.
PN1484
MR EBERHARD: Your Honour, before we proceed this afternoon, on behalf of the - well VECCI did submit, together with the outline of submissions, a witness statement from Ms Marsha Sheridan. Contained in that were references to four different attachments. Now, they have not been provided, and I have copies for the Commission and the other parties here, so they can have a look at them before Ms Sheridan is put into the witness box.
PN1485
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So we just attach them to the witness statements already been filed?
PN1486
MR EBERHARD: Yes, your Honour.
PN1487
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, thank you, Mr Eberhard. Yes, Mr White.
PN1488
MR WHITE: Just one other matter. It is a programming matter, really. As I understand, there are a small number of witnesses now to be called by the HSUA, and then it is proposed that there are other amended statements which we have just been handed, which are designed on the HSUAs part to address objections which Mr Langmead and I discussed yesterday, so he knew then.
PN1489
Thereafter, if the Commission pleases, the position seems to be this. I do now know what the HSUA will ultimately decide to do with the summons that produced material. That is a matter for them, after they have had an opportunity to analyse it. It may well be that they might want an opportunity to do that prior to any examination of employee witnesses. But it would certainly be our submission that after the completion of the witnesses and dealing with the witness statements of the HSUA, that the matter then be adjourned until tomorrow morning at the normal time before the employers commence their case. I just thought I would foreshadow that to the Commission now.
PN1490
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Very well. Thank you. Mr Langmead.
PN1491
MR LANGMEAD: We would support that course of action, your Honour.
PN1492
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Would the HSUA be anticipating bringing any further witness evidence?
PN1493
MR LANGMEAD: Beyond the ones that I have foreshadowed?
PN1494
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, what you foreshadowed before lunch.
PN1495
MR LANGMEAD: The two identified, being one who was not then identified but is now - I can identify as Kalie Liverwood.
PN1496
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Kalie or Kylie?
PN1497
MR LANGMEAD: Kalie - K-a-l-i-e. Those will be the witnesses of the HSUA who are called to give evidence. And as Mr White indicated, we will seek to tender a number of statements, and the Commission may or may not have to rule on any objectionable - I am sorry, will have to rule on any objections, and the outcome of those objections will determine whether or not those statements go in, in whole or in part.
PN1498
Thereafter we have some documents which we at this stage are only in a position to notionally tender, because we do not have sufficient copies, but we would do that. We would obviously need to reserve our position in relation to the survey. But we would wish to look through the summons material before we would require to cross-examine the employer witnesses, and indeed the departmental witnesses.
PN1499
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes.
PN1500
MR LANGMEAD: So we would support the proposition that the Commission adjourn after reaching that stage this afternoon. And I think there probably will not be a lot of time left anyway.
PN1501
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, that was going through my mind too, and the list of things we are going to do this afternoon.
PN1502
MR LANGMEAD: Yes. Well, we shall not be losing much time, I don't think.
PN1503
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: All right. Thank you. Yes, you proceed. Yes, sorry, Mr Langmead, you called a witness.
PN1504
PN1505
MR LANGMEAD: Ms Coughlan, can I ask you to repeat your name and address for the transcript please?---Rae Maree Coughlan, 16 Gardenview Grove, Westmeadows.
PN1506
And what is your occupation?---Team Leader of Melbourne City Mission.
PN1507
You produced a - prepared a witness statement for use in these proceedings?---Yes.
PN1508
Do you have that with you?---Yes, I have my copy.
PN1509
Can I ask you to go to paragraph 7 of that statement. Now the three houses that you manage, are they under the RSSW Award?---Yes, they are.
PN1510
How many of those, the staff that work in those houses, are qualified?---There aren't any actually. There is a couple that are now doing the certificate 4, but all the other staff, there is no one else that is qualified.
PN1511
Have you tried to get qualified staff to work in that house - those houses?---Yes, we have. And sometimes we get qualified staff but they never stay very long.
PN1512
Right.
PN1513
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: Could I just clarify, the RSSW Award, is that the Residential and Support Services Victoria Award 1999?---As far as I know, yes, the Residential Support Service Award, yes.
PN1514
Where does the "W" come from, by the way?
**** RAE MAREE COUGHLAN XN MR LANGMEAD
PN1515
MR LANGMEAD: It used to be called the - - -?---RCW.
PN1516
- - - the RCW which is the Residential and Childcare Workers Award.
PN1517
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: Yes, okay, but it is the Residential and Support Services Victoria Award 1999?
PN1518
MR LANGMEAD: Yes. I think it has been elsewhere referred to as the RSSV Award?---Yes, I might have put that one in accidentally.
PN1519
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: Yes, that it what I would have expected?---Yes.
PN1520
MR LANGMEAD: I am sorry, Ms Coughlan, I think you were going to answer my question about what experience you had had in attempting to recruit qualified staff?---Yes, well we tried to - we advertise for qualified staff but then we actually needed to change it to qualified and - or experience and often you get people that come for an interview and when they find out what aware it is they prefer to not work in those houses, or we have a casual list, and we - because we have two different awards under the same organisation, we have the Department Award and the Residential award, they often choose to work in the Department Award Houses, especially if they are qualified. I mean, myself, I actually worked in the Residential Carer's Award when I first started there and once I got a qualification and a vacancy came up I moved houses.
PN1521
And are you able to say why the - they prefer to work in the DHS houses?---Because they get more money. They get a better sleep over allowance and they know that they are doing exactly the same work.
PN1522
And how do you know that that is the case?---They tell me. I have been told many times by different people, even in interviews.
**** RAE MAREE COUGHLAN XN MR LANGMEAD
PN1523
In the DHS houses that Melbourne City Mission runs, are you able to tell the Commission what the level of qualified staff in those is?---It is much greater, whereas I have worked in - when I worked in the RESI house there wasn't anyone qualified and also the ones I managed were unqualified but when I worked in the Department houses four out of five of the staff were qualified and they would know - I think also people that have a qualification seem to have a much more awareness too about, you know, the rights and you know, they seem to know. So they know where to go to get the money, or they move houses. Or they would move the Department because I would have done the same thing myself.
PN1524
if I could take you to paragraph 9, you have said that workers inevitable say that they can get more money elsewhere, they say this to you, do they?---Yes. Just recently I interviewed somebody who also had gone for a permanent position and when I contacted that person to say that they had a position they actually said that they have now taken work with an agency because they actually can get more money in agency work. And often that happens, you know, they say - or they will start and then they will leave and say agency will recruit them into their organisation because they said they would get more money and when I have worked in houses they have told me that. So it is very difficult at time to recruit people, staff.
PN1525
Yes - - -?---We have a number of vacancies.
PN1526
I see. In paragraph 8 you refer to the turnover of staff can you go into more detail about the turnover of staff?---Yes. When I was working in the RSS Warehouse I worked there for a longer period of time than anyone else for the three years because I was studying at the time, but the number of staff that I had come through the house at that time was huge, I mean there was turnover of four or five people every six months or every year and also because I managed one of those houses I know that, at the moment, I have only been a team leader for five months and I have had three vacancies in one of my houses, which is a residential house, but when I worked in the other house, which was under the department award, our staff were there for the whole time, for the four years that I was there, three or four years, and we didn't actually have any change - probably one person might have in the last three years, and that is across the service, because there is also one of our other houses where we haven't been able to fill a position for three years. Someone has come and left and - whereas the ones under the Department always seem to have - the positions are filled but the other houses aren't.
**** RAE MAREE COUGHLAN XN MR LANGMEAD
PN1527
Is there any impact on clients from high turnovers?---Definitely. Some of the people - especially one of the houses that have people with autism they like a consistent - you know, approach. I mean they all do. All the clients like the consistent approach and very hard to get continuity and consistency when you have got a huge turnover of staff, and it impacts on the clients, even their behaviour, especially some people who, you know, they rely on that sort of routine and people and they get to know them and I say it has a huge impact on them. And also it has an impact too, on staff with - because it is a lower award they work in other organisations at the same time so they often haven't got l- they are not coming with the same - you know, they are tired and they are not able to work at the same level, I don't think, at times.
PN1528
PN1529
MR LANGMEAD: Thank you, Ms Coughlan, would you mind waiting there for these gentlemen to ask you some questions?---Yes, sure.
PN1530
MR WHITE: I have no question questions, if the Commission pleases. I think the reason why Ms Coughlan was called was that I did have objections in the form of a number of paragraphs and Mr Langmead has addressed those.
PN1531
PN1532
MR LANGMEAD: I call Kaylie Liverwood. I am sorry, I think I have told Paul Scates, haven't I, yes. Paul Scates.
PN1533
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: Mr Langmead, just while the witness is coming in, and it is also referenced to the DDSO award. can you help me with what that is, please?
PN1534
MR LANGMEAD: Sorry, your Honour, I didn't quite hear you.
PN1535
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: There was reference to the DDSO award.
PN1536
MR LANGMEAD: That is the - the DDSO is - I think in fact, your Honour, it is intended to be a reference to the HSUA Department of Human Services Intellectual Disability Services Agreement 2001.
PN1537
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: So it is an agreement rather than an award?
PN1538
MR LANGMEAD: It is, your Honour.
PN1539
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: Okay, thank you.
PN1540
MR LANGMEAD: And I should know what a DDSO is but I am going to have to pass. It is a Disability, Development and Support Officer.
PN1541
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: Thank you.
PN1542
MR LANGMEAD: It might be a convenient time to pass a copy of the agreement to the Bench.
PN1543
PN1544
MR LANGMEAD: Mr Scates, can you say for the transcript your full name and address, please?---Do I stand, sir?
PN1545
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: No, no?---Thank you. My name is Robert Geoffrey Scates. I live at 25 Dundas Street, St Arnaud.
PN1546
MR LANGMEAD: And what is your occupation?---I am a disability support worker.
PN1547
Have you prepared a statement for use in these proceedings?---That is correct.
PN1548
Do you have a copy with you?---I have a draft of it. There may be just some minor typographical corrections on the copy which the bench has probably got in front of it now.
PN1549
Perhaps to ensure that you have got the correct or the same version we will ask that this be given to you?---Thank you very much.
PN1550
Mr Scates, if I could take you to paragraph 5, and tell you that as a result of discussions between counsel for both the government and myself it has been agreed that the first sentence of that paragraph should be deleted, so I would ask you to delete that sentence?---If that is the agreed position I will do it, if it helps the bench. I have no difficulties with it.
PN1551
Yes. Mr Scates, can I take you to paragraph 6. You said that you considered that workers were discouraged from entering the NGO disability field because of the low wages and conditions. Can you tell the Commission why you do have that view?---Yes, I am happy to do that. Discussions which I have held with regional services managers and house supervisors have indicated to me that when advertisements have been placed in the local papers and even the metropolitan paper, the Melbourne Age, on a Saturday, that we don't receive a large number of
**** ROBERT GEOFFREY SCATES XN MR LANGMEAD
resumes or job applications, and that their view is that this is partly due to the first question people often ask on the phone is, how much is the pay, or what are the pay and conditions like? I also find that a number of casuals in particular enter the field, only remain for a very short period of time. Obviously I am not aware as to why people only stay in the field for a very short time in every case, but certainly one common theme which comes through is that the pay which they are receiving is not particularly high.
PN1552
Do they say that to you, do they?---Certainly people who have left the industry have indicated to me that they have left the industry and have obtained very soon afterwards or after starting that work in a similar field or a different field which is much better paid.
PN1553
And in relation to paragraph 7, can you say why that you consider it as dispiriting to those who work at the NGOs?
PN1554
MR WHITE: Well, I object - paragraph 7 - this is no doubt why Mr Scates was called to give evidence to fix up the objections that Mr Langmead and I discussed yesterday, but I don't know whether the question which has now been asked addresses the objection to the first part of paragraph 7, that proceeding - that first sentence of paragraph 7 proceeds on an assumption that the work is valued less by the government. So, a perception based on a false presumption doesn't take the Commission further, and I don't know whether the question that my learned friend asked Mr Scates addresses the objection to that sentence that I raised with him.
PN1555
MR LANGMEAD: Perhaps I can address that concern. Mr Scates, do you say that - when you are saying that you consider that employees who work at NGOs work is valued less, do you say that because of the fact they get paid less than those who work for DHS?---Yes. It's not just the - sorry - it's not just the hourly pay rate. I mean, the job which I do in St Arnaud for E.W. Tipping, I don't receive any sleep-over allowance, so while I sleep at the properties from 10 o'clock at night till 7 am the next morning I don't receive any additional allowance, whereas within the Department of Housing, or Housing and Human Services, when I am on call, I receive an allowance of something like $60 in addition to my normal pay rate. So yes, there is a feeling amongst people employed in various NGOs that their work is less valued because of the pay rate and differing conditions.
**** ROBERT GEOFFREY SCATES XN MR LANGMEAD
PN1556
And how do you know that they find it dispiriting?---By personal communication to myself, and also by a number of people who I can name who have left NGOs in the relatively recent past and are now working for the Department of Human Services.
PN1557
Yes. And finally, Mr Scates, in paragraph 8 in the last sentence that you have just quoted from in part 3 of the RSSV Award - - -?---Mm.
PN1558
- - - ie, no sleep-over, I understand that should be - I mean, should say: sleep-over allowance?---Yes, that is correct. I touched on that before. There is no additional payment for actually sleeping in the property where you may or may not be woken during the night, when you work for under the half-day model, so the word "allowance" I probably should have put into the typed statement, and I apologise to the Bench for that.
PN1559
As amended, I tender that statement.
PN1560
MR WHITE: And I have an objection still to the second sentence in paragraph 7. The basis of that objection is that it is really opinion evidence only, not evidence as to fact.
PN1561
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I beg your pardon?
PN1562
MR WHITE: It is opinion evidence only.
PN1563
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Anything more, Mr Langmead?
PN1564
MR LANGMEAD: We would be prepared to delete the words "by the government".
**** ROBERT GEOFFREY SCATES XN MR LANGMEAD
PN1565
MR WHITE: No, it is the second sentence in paragraph 7.
PN1566
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: It is the second sentence, it is not the first sentence.
PN1567
MR LANGMEAD: The second sentence? Well, that is his opinion. The opinions of the workers and their feelings about this, in my submission, are relevant to the considerations of the bench.
PN1568
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, it is an opinion, we will give it the appropriate weight. Where were we?
PN1569
MR LANGMEAD: I was seeking to tender the statement as amended.
PN1570
PN1571
MR LANGMEAD: Thank you, Mr Scates. There may be some questions for you. If you will remain just for a minute.
PN1572
MR WHITE: Could the bench bear with me just for a short period of time?
PN1573
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, sure, certainly.
PN1574
MR WHITE: Yes, we have no questions of Mr Scates.
**** ROBERT GEOFFREY SCATES XN MR LANGMEAD
PN1575
MS BOYLE: We have just got one question.
PN1576
PN1577
MS BOYLE: In response to an answer you gave to Mr Langmead, are you - you don't get paid a sleepover allowance under the residential award?---Under the - it is a little bit confusing, but under the half-day model that is the case, we do not receive any additional sleepover allowance. If you look at the pay slips which are received from the Department, you see clearly a $60 or $59.80 sleepover allowance.
PN1578
Is that because the shift starts at 12 noon?---It starts at 10 pm and it finishes at 9 am, that is the situation at E.W. Tipping under the half-day model. The Department - the hours may be slightly different, you may find your shift starts at - slightly earlier, finishes slightly later.
PN1579
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes. It says that - in paragraph 8 you say this involved working shifts from 12 noon to 9 am?---Yes, it is. You are actually at the property, not allowed to leave the house during that period, so you commence work at 12 noon and you do not have a break and you finish at 9 am the following day. So you are there for 21 hours.
PN1580
And that is paid at ordinary rates of pay?---It is, yes, approximately $144 gross for one shift.
PN1581
Under the half-day model?---Under the half-day model, and I am grade 3, year 3.
PN1582
Yes, I follow. Yes, thank you.
**** ROBERT GEOFFREY SCATES XXN MS BOYLE
PN1583
Yes, sorry.
PN1584
MS BOYLE: And just one more. Is the work done under the half-day model by E.W. Tipping different to that performed as a DSSO under the Department of Human Services?---I am not aware of any differences. When I say that, I think the reconciliation of the medication may be slightly different at the Department, they may have a slightly different handover also for what they call CERS which is a reconciliation of the cash at the beginning and end of a shift, but pretty much the day to day work. Every house is different. The one which I worked at at Thomastown for the Department is a different type of house in some ways to the one at St Arnaud, but the clients are similar. The work is, I think, equally demanding.
PN1585
Sorry, Mr Scates, what about in the terms of rostering - in the roster?---The - at E.W. Tipping, the rostering is slightly different in that all of the shifts for permanent ongoing staff start at 12 noon and finish at 9 am.
PN1586
So they don't operate under a half-day model?---They do, it is called the half-day model.
PN1587
Okay?---Sorry, it is confusing, but in fact that is called the half-day model. I understand it is fairly rare that not a lot of NGOs have the half-day model, but E.W. Tipping certainly does.
PN1588
What about - sorry, what about workers under the Department; is that under a half-day model as well?---No, I am not aware of the half-day model operating within the Department of Human Services public servants.
PN1589
Thank you.
**** ROBERT GEOFFREY SCATES XXN MS BOYLE
PN1590
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Mr Scates, could you just explain what a half-day model is?---To the best of my ability, sir, and I am not an expert, I had never heard of it until I started working at E.W. Tipping some two years ago, and when I asked about the wages and conditions they said, well, the wages are exactly the same as at Alkira where I had been working previously, they meant the hourly rate, but if you work under the half-day model it is an attachment to the award, I think, when you have a look probably at the documents that you got yesterday, you will see it as an attachment to the main resi award and it seems to be more simple in that I don't believe it, for instance, has any penalty rates for Saturday or Sunday, so whether I work from Saturday at 9 o'clock - sorry - Saturday at noon to 9 am Sunday or from 12 noon on Thursday to 9 am Friday, the pay rate is exactly the same. I get the same amount of money in my pay at the end of a fortnight.
PN1591
I am sorry if I am not quite as clear as I should be on that but the award is certainly an attachment or the half-day model was an attachment to the award.
PN1592
Clear as mud. Thanks, Mr Scates?---Thank you, sir.
PN1593
MR MALONEY: Your Honour, if I could just finish with one question from the employers' side.
PN1594
PN1595
MR MALONEY: Mr Scates, you described the half-day model as not attracting a sleepover but presumably the eight-hour model does attract a sleepover?---Yes, certainly that is the case. We have a number of people at E.W. Tipping, for instance, at Edward Street, Ballarat, one of the larger houses, where people work eight hours and they receive a sleepover allowance. I understand it is not as high as that paid to the department at somewhere around the 27 to 29 dollar per night rate but it certainly is additional to the normal pay. And I understand also that if
**** ROBERT GEOFFREY SCATES XXN MR MALONEY
they work part of a Saturday or part of a Sunday that they receive a loading of 50 per cent or 100 per cent and these are employees at Tipping that are at Ballarat working very hard, and yet we at St Arnaud under the half-day model doing almost exactly the same work and being paid under the half-day model.
PN1596
Second question, Mr Scates. How popular is the half-day model compared with the eight-hour model? Do people line up to do the 24-hour work or half-day model?---I must say - I must say that there perhaps is an advantage if you were single and you can sleep well and you get a good shift. I have actually been there for 21 - it was always ifs, if I could record them in the record. But if you do get 21 hours straight, then you feel you need a break but you are normally not rostered on the next day. We rarely - Tipping, as the manager - and I agree with them - rarely ever have people working two shifts in a row because they are just too tired. So I suppose there is some attraction there of knowing that if you work Saturday night you are not going to work Sunday night as well. But no, we have advertised a number of times for workers and we have got some workers who have come into the field and who are very good at their jobs but we have also had some people who have left after fairly short periods of time and that probably applies at other NGOs as well.
PN1597
Finally, Mr Scates, would it be of concern to you if the sleepover rate for the eight-hour people was doubled to nearly $60 and still there was no sleepover rate for the half-day model?---Well, as someone employed under the sleepover model, I would be disappointed if there wasn't some attention given to the fact that we work and sleep in similar beds in similar houses doing similar work and perhaps we are woken up just as often as someone under an eight-hour model. So, yes, from my point of view there might be some concern but I wish everyone well. If anyone gets additional money, I am sure they deserve it.
PN1598
Thank you, Mr Scates?---Thank you.
PN1599
MR WHITE: Why do they call it a - where did that term half-day model come from?---An absolute mystery to me, sir.
PN1600
Does anybody know - which you could start at half a day? Mr Medina jumped up.
**** ROBERT GEOFFREY SCATES XXN MR MALONEY
PN1601
MR LANGMEAD: Well, he is probably in a better position to describe it than I am, Commissioner. I will defer to him.
PN1602
MR MEDINA: I was about to say it used to be called the 24-hour model and it is based, if one goes back in time, on the notion of foster care, where someone, usually a child, would be placed in a sense of fostering with an existing family. So, in effect, the client or the child lived with the family. Going back, when it was retitled to the half-day model is because under the 26 hours it does work in modules of a half day and that is sort of the limit in a day's work. It can either be the full day for 24 hours when the person sleeps in the house or it can be on the basis of one half a day, which normally means from midnight to 12 and from 12 to - - -
PN1603
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: So the example given by Mr Scates from 12 noon on one day till 9 am the next day is two half-day modules.
PN1604
MR MEDINA: It sounds a bit funny but that is the way it would work from - half-day model is normally from 12 to - - -
PN1605
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Noon one day to noon the next day type of case.
PN1606
MR MEDINA: Yes.
PN1607
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Thanks.
PN1608
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: So what is the eight-hour model?
PN1609
MR MEDINA: The eight-hour model is merely the normal industrial thing that one is - - -
**** ROBERT GEOFFREY SCATES XXN MR MALONEY
PN1610
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Working day.
PN1611
MR MEDINA: That one is used to in, say, a shiftwork situation. Where a house has to be manned around the clock, it is broken up into eight-hour - virtually eight-hour sections to get the 24 hour in. There is a complication there, is that there is a sleepover in there as well.
PN1612
THE WITNESS: I think, with respect, that Mr Medina is correct and he has given you a very good description of the half-day model.
PN1613
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Give Mr Medina the sleepover allowance?---Yes. I am sure he would be an excellent candidate for any casual positions that come up.
PN1614
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, Mr Langmead.
PN1615
PN1616
MR LANGMEAD: Mr Scates, are you familiar with the terms of the award?---Reasonably, sir. I am not an industrial relations practitioner, but I can usually find things in the index, and try and answer other people's queries.
PN1617
Because it seems that what happens with your shift is that you are working two consecutive shifts of 12 hours, and that because of the operation of Part C Section 2 Clause 2 on page 54 - - -
PN1618
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Page what?
**** ROBERT GEOFFREY SCATES RXN MR LANGMEAD
PN1619
MR LANGMEAD: Page 54, Commissioner.
PN1620
You are required to have a period rostered off duty of three hours each working day. And how they do that is to have you start at noon, go through to midnight, and then go through to 9, and then they would give you the three hours off. Is that how you understand it, Mr Scates?---Yes. It looks like the 21 plus 3 adds up to 24, and so that is 2 by 12, isn't it?
PN1621
Yes?---That would fit in with Mr Medina's excellent explanation before.
PN1622
Mr Scates, you are a casual at E.W. Tipping now?---I am now, that is correct.
PN1623
Were you working in the same house before when you were a permanent?---Yes, it is the only house that I have worked at for E. W. Tipping. I worked there for a permanent for some 18 months, and resigned because I was offered a contract with the Department of Human Services.
PN1624
Were you permanent full time?---I believe I worked 4 by 21, so it would be 8 half-day shifts. That is probably not quite full time under the terms of the award.
PN1625
Well, perhaps can you tell us, is there any given roster period?---Yes, the days at E. W. Tipping, the days varied, so you may work Monday, Wednesday, Friday of one week, and then perhaps Tuesday of the next week, and that would be your four 21 hour shifts, or 4 by two 8 hour shifts.
PN1626
So does it go fortnightly or monthly?---Fortnightly. And the roster would normally be prepared some few weeks in advance, so you would know in terms of your social life, appointments or other work, when you would be working. You would know the dates that you were working.
**** ROBERT GEOFFREY SCATES RXN MR LANGMEAD
PN1627
So could you tell the Commission what a typical roster would have been for you in that period?---Yes. I tended to work quite a few Sundays, so I would perhaps come on shift at midday on Sunday and finish at 9 am on Monday. I would then have the Tuesday off. I would work from 12 noon on the Wednesday to 9 on the Thursday, and then have off until the Saturday, working either from 12 midday to 9 am, or on some occasions from 3 pm to 12 midday. So there was sometimes a variation, and instead of starting at 12, you would start at 3, and there might be a social event, or something which the staff would organise, and then I would perhaps finish up with a Friday starting at 12 noon and finishing at 9 am on Saturday. So 84 hours out of my fortnight ..... E. W. Tipping at the house, but I wasn't paid for the full 84, in that I slept for part of that.
PN1628
So, whilst you are there between the hours of, say, midnight and 7 am, you would be asleep, theoretically?---On most occasions you would sleep through. I guess you would rarely be in bed before 10 or 10.30, just because there was usually paperwork to be done, or the phone would ring late in the evening. And sometimes it takes you a while to unwind, or you have got a client that takes medication between 9 and 10, or between 10 and 10.30. So you would rarely be in bed before 10.30 at night, and often you would be waking, because sometimes they are not good at sleeping. On one occasion there was a power blackout, so everyone woke up and panicked, but they would be few and far between. You would also sometimes be taking clients to a social event, so you took clients to a discotheque at Stawell or Nhill, you might not get back to the house until 10.30 or 11 o'clock at night, and then people sort of get dressed for bed, and have medication.
PN1629
Yes, thank you, Mr Scates.
PN1630
PN1631
MR LANGMEAD: I call Kalie Littlewood. Whilst Ms Littlewood is being called to the Commission, can I indicate that Ms Thurecht, who was witness number 32, is in hospital and unable to attend. Ms Littlewood is the acting manager who is taking over her position while she is hospitalised.
PN1632
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Do we have a statement from Ms Littlewood?
PN1633
MR LANGMEAD: We don't, Commissioner.
PN1634
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Is this the one that we were talking about before?
PN1635
MR LANGMEAD: Yes. And I will be asking her to look at Ms Thurecht's statement.
PN1636
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Which is number?
PN1637
PN1638
MR LANGMEAD: Ms Littlewood, can you state for the transcript your name and address please?---Yes, Kaylie Elizabeth Littlewood, 261 ..... Road in Sunbury.
PN1639
What is your occupation?---I am an acting disability manager at Melbourne City Mission.
PN1640
Yes. You have only become the Acting Manager of Disability Services very recently?---Yes, in the last couple of days.
PN1641
Yes. Now, how long have you been employed by Melbourne City Mission?---For about three-and-a-half years.
PN1642
Where did you work previously?---I was working in the Department of Human Services in Northern Region.
PN1643
What was your job there?---I was Cluster Manager there when I left.
PN1644
And you had worked there for some 12 years at DHS?---That is correct, yes.
PN1645
And you are an MRE?---That is correct, yes.
PN1646
Now, can I ask you if you have a copy of Ms Thurecht's witness statement?---Yes, I do.
PN1647
Now, you have read that statement?---Yes, I have.
PN1648
What do you say about the contents of that statement?---I would say that I agree with the contents of the statement.
**** KAYLIE ELIZABETH LITTLEWOOD XN MR LANGMEAD
PN1649
Can I take you to paragraph 10. How do you know that the discrepancy between pay and conditions of employees is a source of considerable unhappiness?---Because staff actually say that and have said that to me.
PN1650
And what is your experience of turnover in staff?---I have managed both the programs and I found that the staff in the RSSV houses turn over quite considerably in comparison to the DHS houses.
PN1651
Do you know why there is a higher turnover?---Generally because of the pay and conditions.
PN1652
Okay. And how do you know that?---Because they say so.
PN1653
What do they say?---They usually don't write that in their resignation, but they verbally tell us that they are going for other jobs where they can get more money.
PN1654
Now, you said you agreed with Ms Thurecht's statement in paragraph 11 about the outcome of the proceedings and its affect on staff if a certain outcome is the result, and the alternative if the result is another way. How do you know that that is what - how staff feel?---Well, the staff at the moment are just waiting to find out what happens with regards to the current issues and then we believe that what will happen is that they will leave to find better employment.
PN1655
In paragraph 14, can you give any examples of what you agree with in that paragraph?---Yes. Just recently I have spoken to two staff who have been working for other agencies and I was concerned at the number of hours that they were working in a fortnight was going to lead to issues with them, care for clients and their own health and well-being.
**** KAYLIE ELIZABETH LITTLEWOOD XN MR LANGMEAD
PN1656
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: Hours being what?---They were actually working in our agency 80 hours per fortnight and then they were working in other areas as well, and we consider 80 hours to be quite sufficient. If I may clarify that by saying that we have had instances where staff have worked a 12-hour shift and then they will leave and drive to another worksite and work another 12-hour shift elsewhere, and we consider that an occupational health and safety issue; you see, there has been no break.
PN1657
MR LANGMEAD: Ms Littlewood, do you have any - I am sorry, I seek to tender the statement of Debra Thurecht.
PN1658
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Exhibit HSUA32.
PN1659
MR WHITE: I mean, it is a funny way of doing it.
PN1660
MR GOSTENCNIK: But we understand the circumstances and that it has, in effect, been adopted, so if that is the most convenient way of doing it, then so be it, but other - - -
PN1661
MR LANGMEAD: Well, I think it is the most convenient way. Whether it is marked correctly in the circumstances. Perhaps it needs to be identified as statement adopted by Ms Littlewood.
PN1662
**** KAYLIE ELIZABETH LITTLEWOOD XN MR LANGMEAD
PN1663
MR LANGMEAD: We don't seek to represent it as being Ms Thurecht's evidence.
PN1664
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: No, no.
PN1665
MR LANGMEAD: It is Ms Littlewood's evidence.
PN1666
Ms Littlewood, do you know anything about the funding arrangements of the activities of Melbourne City Mission?---I understand that disability services is funded 100 per cent by the Department of Human Services.
PN1667
And how did you acquire that understanding?---From the limited knowledge and I suppose work that I have been doing with Ms Thurecht, we have quite closely and I have been involved with certain funding and service agreement arrangements with Melbourne City Mission and the Department of Human Services.
PN1668
Yes. Somebody in that context told you that that is the amount?---That is correct, yes.
PN1669
Who told you? Are you able to say who told you - how you found out?---Well, I was discussing that with the Human Resources Manager this morning, but that is something that I have been aware of, it is solely funded by the Department, they don't have any funds from elsewhere.
PN1670
Yes. Thank you, Ms Littlewood. Would you mind waiting, these gentlemen might have some questions for you.
PN1671
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Any cross-examination?
**** KAYLIE ELIZABETH LITTLEWOOD XN MR LANGMEAD
PN1672
MR WHITE: We have no questions.
PN1673
PN1674
MR LANGMEAD: Thank you, your Honour. That concludes the witnesses who are coming to the Commission to give evidence. We have a number of other statements which we will now seek to tender. If I could hand to the Commission an amended witness statement of Dianne Strachan. And I seek to tender that.
[3.18pm]
EXHIBIT #HSUA11 AMENDED WITNESS STATEMENT OF DIANNE STRACHEN
PN1675
MR WHITE: Perhaps before - I think - sorry, this might be a slightly slow process. There are some amended and some aren't amended. We have just agreed between ourselves we will do them one by one, and - yes, we have no objection.
PN1676
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Well, the amended witness statement of Dianne Strachen will be HSUA11.
PN1677
MR LANGMEAD: I tender the statement of Suzanne Norris, which is statement number 15.
PN1678
MR WHITE: No objection.
PN1679
PN1680
MR LANGMEAD: We don't press the tender of the statement of Jan Kirkland which is statement number 15.
PN1681
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: 16.
PN1682
MR LANGMEAD: 16, sorry.
PN1683
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So that has been withdrawn. Yes. There can be no objection to that.
PN1684
MR WHITE: No.
PN1685
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Had a big win there, did you?
PN1686
MR LANGMEAD: Would the Commission pardon me a moment?
PN1687
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes.
PN1688
MR LANGMEAD: In relation to statement number 18 - - -
PN1689
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: That is Tracey Horgan.
PN1690
MR LANGMEAD: Yes.
PN1691
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Have you got that?
PN1692
MR WHITE: Is the Commissioner being picked on again?
PN1693
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: Sorry? I am being picked on. We should do a work value case just for me alone.
PN1694
MR LANGMEAD: We would wish to amend paragraph 9 by deleting the words "because the wages are so low" and deleting the word "also" in the next sentence, and we seek to tender it in that form.
PN1695
MR WHITE: We would still maintain an objection to the second sentence in paragraph 9, even with the word "also" deleted. It is hearsay, that is the basis for the objection. Can I say that it goes beyond also, that second sentence goes beyond Villa Maria, but other NGOs in a very broad sense and becomes - the hearsay problem is presented even more starkly.
PN1696
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes. What do you say, Mr Langmead?
PN1697
MR LANGMEAD: Well, it is not evidence, it is hearsay evidence, but it is evidence that that is what has been said. We don't put it that it is evidence of anything more than that.
PN1698
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes. No, we won't admit that sentence.
PN1699
MR LANGMEAD: Sorry, your Honour?
PN1700
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: We won't admit that sentence.
PN1701
MR LANGMEAD: If the Commission pleases.
PN1702
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Is that your only objection, Mr White?
PN1703
MR WHITE: I am sorry, yes. Other than that we have no objection to the tender.
PN1704
PN1705
MR WHITE: I am sorry, I didn't hear the number.
PN1706
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: 18.
PN1707
MR LANGMEAD: If I can hand to the Commission an amended witness statement of Ray Riddiford whose original statement appeared at tab 20. I seek to tender that amended witness statement.
PN1708
PN1709
MR LANGMEAD: I tender the witness statement of Aki Mashiyaki which is statement number 21.
PN1710
PN1711
MR LANGMEAD: I hand to the Commission an amended witness statement of Robert Nauta, whose original statement is 23 and seek to tender that.
PN1712
MR WHITE: These are - this is one of the matters that Mr Langmead and I discussed yesterday. We don't maintain an objection to the amended statement, but make the observation that even in its current form it may or may not be terribly helpful to the Commission, because it still expresses - - -
PN1713
PN1714
MR LANGMEAD: I tender the statement of Sharon Brooks, which is statement number 24.
PN1715
PN1716
MR LANGMEAD: I hand to the Commission an amended witness statement of Lyndal Robertson, whose original statement is statement number 25. I seek to tender that amended statement.
PN1717
MR WHITE: Sorry, we are just having a look at - we got the amended ones. We are just checking them now. Once again, this is a matter which, whilst we make no formal objection in the amended statement, we make the observation nonetheless that it does contain a range of opinion evidence which the Commission, in our submission, shouldn't put too much weight on but, other than that, we have no objection.
PN1718
PN1719
MR LANGMEAD: I tender the statement of Franchesca Micalides, which is statement number 26.
PN1720
PN1721
MR LANGMEAD: If I can refer to the witness statement of Yair Solow and take the Commission to paragraph 5. I ask that the second sentence be deleted. This is statement number 27. In that amended form, seek to tender it.
PN1722
PN1723
MR LANGMEAD: If the Commission would just bear with me a moment, we have an agreed position on one of these. On Mr Puttyfoot's statement, if I can hand to the Commission an amended statement, which is amended by deletions. When I referred to an agreed position, I had in mind an agreement I had reached with Mr Eberhard to amend the paragraph 2 by deleting "Yooralla" and inserting "Timewell Crescent", which is a matter of clarification. I understand Mr White has a remaining objection but I seek to tender it in that amended form.
PN1724
MR WHITE: Yes, once again, I think we had an objection to paragraph 11 but given the stance we have taken in relation to other statements of similar evidence when the witnesses have been called, we don't press the objection.
PN1725
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes. That will be given the weight that we think is appropriate. You have got no further objection, Mr White?
PN1726
PN1727
MR LANGMEAD: It seems there has been some confusion in relation to Mr David Morgan. Mr Morgan in fact is present and an amended witness statement hasn't been prepared. I will need to call him to give that amended evidence. Is it convenient to do that now?
PN1728
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I think it is convenient to do it now.
PN1729
MR WHITE: The objection, given the stance we have taken in other witnesses, we withdraw our objection to the paragraph that has been indicated to Mr Langmead.
PN1730
PN1731
MR LANGMEAD: I tender the statement of Simone Leigh Theobold, which is statement number 31.
PN1732
PN1733
MR LANGMEAD: I apologise for this. It seems that my colleagues at the bar table haven't been given a copy of this. I had secreted it under my papers. Perhaps Mr White will need some time to look at the amendments. Perhaps while he is doing that, I can indicate that we don't seek to tender document number 36.
PN1734
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: You don't seek to tender that?
PN1735
MR LANGMEAD: I don't, Commissioner.
PN1736
COMMISSIONER BLAIR: That is good because I haven't got it.
PN1737
MR LANGMEAD: Saves you having to throw it out, sir.
PN1738
MR WHITE: If the Commission please, with our same grumble, we don't object. That is, there is still evidence which the Commission may not find terribly helpful but in terms of opinion and hearsay - - -
PN1739
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: And our response is the same.
PN1740
PN1741
PN1742
MR LANGMEAD: I previously indicated to the Commission that I was proposing to notionally tender some documents but we don't have sufficient copies. Given the proposed course of proceedings for the rest of the day, namely, that we won't proceed beyond this point, it may be more convenient if we arrange copies to be made overnight and we are able to properly tender them tomorrow.
PN1743
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, that would be convenient. Can I just ask you a question, Mr Langmead, and - I ask you two questions. [3.40pm]
PN1744
The first one arises out of the material in exhibit W1 which relates to the Allied Health Professionals. Can I just ask if in the course of negotiations and conciliation was there any attempts made or discussions in relation to dealing with the various groups of employees covered by the claim in total separately with a view to try and reach an agreement, for example in respect of the Health Professionals or looking at the mirror - the reflection of that - whether or not the Department's position - I may address Mr White also - was that the claim could be settled in a suitable way.
PN1745
MR LANGMEAD: I will just seek some instructions about that.
PN1746
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Thank you. I am instructed that the union did raise the prospect but the Department made it clear that it was a package which wouldn't be divided.
PN1747
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, thank you. Well, perhaps I will ask you - did you want a minute? I want to go on and ask another question. Mr Langmead has given an answer but I would like to hear from the Department if you demur from the answer that was given.
PN1748
MR WHITE: Yes, could I get some instructions.
PN1749
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes. You don't have to answer this afternoon if you don't wish to. It is just something that I would like to have a response.
PN1750
MR WHITE: Yes. Well, if it gives us a chance for me to - I will answer tomorrow morning if that is convenient.
PN1751
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes. My second question, Mr Langmead, arises out of a perusal of HSUA1, the draft order, and the spreadsheet material for want of a better description that the Department has very constructively provided as I understand is agreed as to facts only. The evidence of the HSUA has really focused on the wage rates and salary packaging which is allied to wage rates. There is a range of condition changes that the union is seeking which clearly as part of arbitration require the meeting of the requirements under MX. How is the union intending to deal with those raft of condition changes that it seeks in the draft award?
PN1752
MR LANGMEAD: Yes. Well with respect, your Honour, the evidence goes much further than just wages so nearly each statement speaks of the wages and conditions not being comparable.
PN1753
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes.
PN1754
MR LANGMEAD: And it is on the basis of no good reason existing for the distinctions between those wages and conditions that the HSUA seeks the improved conditions.
PN1755
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: And you expect us to come down in your favour on the basis of that?
PN1756
MR LANGMEAD: Indeed, your Honour.
PN1757
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: A novel approach.
PN1758
MR LANGMEAD: With respect, your Honour, it is not a novel approach, it is a well trodden path.
PN1759
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT CARTWRIGHT: Well, for myself I would expect rather more evidence to be given.
PN1760
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Clearly one of the difficulties is the sources of the changes of conditions are numerous. They derive from a number of different instruments with different standing, different history and they have been palliated, if you like, into a single draft instrument. So will the HSUA be substantiating why reliance should be placed on a recommendation of Commissioner Blair in one instance, a particular Act in another instance, a certified agreement in another instance and another award in another instance because - - -
PN1761
MR LANGMEAD: By way of submission we will address that, yes.
PN1762
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, by way - yes, yes. Very well.
PN1763
MR LANGMEAD: We obviously heard the views of the Commission in respect of a number of aspects of that and so we expect to convince y ou.
PN1764
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes. Well, it is a very, very wide application.
PN1765
MR LANGMEAD: Yes. Well, there was a - - -
PN1766
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: As I say based on a number of sources.
PN1767
MR LANGMEAD: - - - a wide range of issues that were issued in the bargaining period.
PN1768
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes. I see. Is there anything further before we adjourn?
PN1769
MR WHITE: No, if the Commission please.
PN1770
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: So tomorrow we will proceed with the employer evidence, is that correct?
PN1771
MR WHITE: Well, subject to - if the union wishes to do it - make anything of the survey material that it has and there will be additional material produced tomorrow, being the summary of the survey material. So we will deal with the employer evidence but the HSUA has reserved its position in relation to those matters.
PN1772
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes. So the HSUA will be in a position tomorrow morning to indicate whether it is going to commence with any further evidence in relation to the survey material?
PN1773
MR LANGMEAD: I haven't had a chance to look at it at all.
PN1774
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: No.
PN1775
MR LANGMEAD: So I would hope that that being the case that maybe we would need some more time to make a decision about that.
PN1776
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: I guess it is at the back of my mind I would like to be clear so far as we can be of how we can proceed tomorrow because obviously we don't want to waste time but I have also got in my mind that you have only received this information this afternoon.
PN1777
MR LANGMEAD: Yes.
PN1778
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: And the people instructing you have been here all afternoon.
PN1779
MR LANGMEAD: Some of us at least at the bar table think that perhaps a later start tomorrow might assist in ensuring that we progress smoothly and perhaps a consequential shorter luncheon adjournment subject to the Commission's demands, of course.
PN1780
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Can you assist me a little bit further? Can you assist me a little bit further in what time you have got in mind?
PN1781
MR LANGMEAD: Given that more material is going to arrive in the morning a suggestion has been made by my learned friend's instructor - which I agree with - is 1 o'clock and we - subject to the convenience of the Commission we perhaps do without a luncheon break and have an afternoon tea break of short duration. I should indicate to the Commission - at least from our part - we see no dangers whatsoever in not completing the case in the time that has been set down for hearing. We would anticipate all the evidence will be concluded probably in two days at the most next week.
PN1782
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes. Well, that is useful, thank you for that.
PN1783
MR LANGMEAD: Speaking of that Mr White and I had some short discussions about the desirability of producing written submissions in this matter which is a course which is usually commendable in these sorts of matters supplemented by oral submissions which could use those days later in the month,
PN1784
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Yes, we would certainly commend that approach.
PN1785
MR LANGMEAD: I wouldn't expect that we need more than one day for supplementing written submissions.
PN1786
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Well, could you have discussions with the other people at the bar table an appropriate time. We will either issue directions - but we will issue directions on guidance that the parties have given us in respect to timing and what support there is for written submissions but certainly an approach we would encourage.
PN1787
MR WHITE: It is the pace of change which is the problem, Commissioner.
PN1788
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: Well, if necessary we would be prepared to sit a little later tomorrow afternoon if that - if the evidence is such that to finish a particular witness or whatever that is more convenient. If that is convenient to everybody otherwise we will commence at 1 pm on the basis that there will be no luncheon adjournment.
PN1789
MR WHITE: Yes, that would be convenient except that I have difficulty if we sit later.
PN1790
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT MARSH: All right, thank you for that. We will sit until 4.15 then. All right, we will adjourn until 1 pm tomorrow.
ADJOURNED UNTIL THURSDAY, 14 NOVEMBER 2002 [3.50pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
JOYCE CHAN, SWORN PN877
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR LANGMEAD PN877
EXHIBIT #HSUA10 STATEMENT OF J. CHAN PN883
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR EBERHARD PN885
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WHITE PN897
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LANGMEAD PN994
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1020
POLLY LISA MORGAN, AFFIRMED PN1020
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR LANGMEAD PN1020
EXHIBIT #HSUA7 STATEMENT OF POLLY LISA MORGAN PN1029
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR EBERHARD PN1031
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WHITE PN1038
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1126
LISA JANE DYER, AFFIRMED PN1134
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR LANGMEAD PN1134
EXHIBIT #HSUA19 STATEMENT OF LISA JANE DYER PN1142
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1149
AMIE MALCOLM, SWORN PN1150
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR LANGMEAD PN1150
EXHIBIT #HSUA8 STATEMENT OF A. MALCOLM PN1173
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY EBERHARD PN1175
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WHITE PN1184
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LANGMEAD: PN1240
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1251
PAULINE KLEINITZ, AFFIRMED PN1252
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR LANGMEAD PN1252
EXHIBIT #HSUA9 STATEMENT OF PAULINE KLEINITZ PN1269
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WHITE PN1284
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1311
JODI LOUISE CROMPTON, AFFIRMED PN1325
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR LANGMEAD PN1325
EXHIBIT #HSUA5 STATEMENT OF JODI LOUISE CROMPTON PN1331
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WHITE PN1341
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LANGMEAD PN1365
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1368
DEREK JACK BELL, AFFIRMED PN1369
EXAMINATION BY MR LANGMEAD PN1369
EXHIBIT #HSUA30 WITNESS STATEMENT OF DEREK JACK BELL PN1390
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR EBERHARD PN1392
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1418
RAE MAREE COUGHLAN, SWORN PN1505
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR LANGMEAD PN1505
EXHIBIT #HSUA14 STATEMENT OF RAE MAREE COUGHLAN PN1529
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1532
ROBERT GEOFFREY SCATES, SWORN PN1544
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR LANGMEAD PN1544
EXHIBIT #HSUA17 AMENDED STATEMENT OF ROBERT GEOFFREY SCATES PN1571
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BOYLE PN1577
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALONEY PN1595
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LANGMEAD PN1616
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1631
KAYLIE ELIZABETH LITTLEWOOD, SWORN PN1638
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR LANGMEAD PN1638
EXHIBIT #HSUA32 WITNESS STATEMENT OF DEBRA THURECHT AS ADOPTED BY MS KAYLIE LITTLEWOOD IN EVIDENCE ON 13/11/2002 PN1663
WITNESS WITHDREW PN1674
EXHIBIT #HSUA11 AMENDED WITNESS STATEMENT OF DIANNE STRACHEN PN1675
EXHIBIT #HSUA15 WITNESS STATEMENT OF SUZANNE NORRIS PN1680
EXHIBIT #HSUA18 WITNESS STATEMENT OF TRACEY HORGAN PN1705
EXHIBIT #HSUA20 AMENDED WITNESS STATEMENT OF RAY RIDDIFORD PN1709
EXHIBIT #HSUA21 WITNESS STATEMENT OF AKI MASHIYAKI PN1711
EXHIBIT #HSUA23 AMENDED WITNESS STATEMENT OF ROBERT NAUTA PN1714
EXHIBIT #HSUA24 WITNESS STATEMENT OF SHARON BROOKS PN1716
EXHIBIT #HSUA25 AMENDED WITNESS STATEMENT OF LYNDAL ROBERTSON PN1719
EXHIBIT #HSUA26 WITNESS STATEMENT OF FRANCHESCA MICALIDES PN1721
EXHIBIT #HSUA27 AMENDED WITNESS STATEMENT OF YAIR SOLOW PN1723
EXHIBIT #HSUA28 WITNESS STATEMENT OF JOHN PUTTYFOOT AS AMENDED IN PARAGRAPH 2 PN1727
EXHIBIT #HSUA29 WITNESS STATEMENT OF DAVID MORGAN PN1731
EXHIBIT #HSUA31 WITNESS STATEMENT OF SIMONE LEIGH THEOBOLD PN1733
EXHIBIT #HSUA35 AMENDED WITNESS STATEMENT OF MAUREEN HOGARTY PN1741
EXHIBIT #HSUA37 DHS DOCUMENT TITLED
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