C2002/5638, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 4923 (6 December 2002)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 10, MLC Court 15 Adelaide St BRISBANE Qld 4000
(PO Box 38 Roma St Brisbane Qld 4003) Tel:[phone] Fax:[phone]

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER HOFFMAN

C2002/5638

CAPE FLATTERY SILICA MINES PTY LTD

and

COMMUNICATIONS, ELECTRICAL, ELECTRONIC,
ENERGY, INFORMATION, POSTAL, PLUMBING
AND ALLIED SERVICES UNION OF AUSTRALIA
and OTHERS

Notification pursuant to Section 99 of the Act
of a dispute re outstanding matters for
negotiations of certified agreement

BRISBANE

11.30 AM, FRIDAY, 22 NOVEMBER 2002

PN1

THE COMMISSIONER: Could we have the appearances, thank you?

PN2

MR I. TURNER: Thank you, Commissioner. Ian Turner, and LEN CATCHPOLE for Cape Flattery Silica Mines Proprietary Limited. And at Cape Flattery, we have on the telephone, JIM MARSHALL, the General Manager, and JOHN COUSNER, the Mine Manager.

PN3

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thanks, Mr Turner. Do we have any appearances up there from anyone else?

PN4

MR W. THRELFALL: Commissioner, Wal Threlfall, representing the CEPU Electrical Division.

PN5

THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks, Mr Threlfall.

PN6

MR THRELFALL: With me, on the telephone up at Cape Flattery, should be the CEPU delegate, ROD ERNST.

PN7

MR D. TRASK: Commissioner, it's Darren Trask from the AMWU and there will be the delegate, WAYNE EVANS, at Cape Flattery.

PN8

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you.

PN9

MR T. BRISCHKE: Commissioner, it's Ted Brischke for the Australian Workers Union and with me I have MR NOBLE, I believe, on the line at Cape Flattery.

PN10

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Brischke? Thank you. Is that everyone? Can you hear us all right?

PN11

MR..........: Yes, Commissioner.

PN12

THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks. All right, yes, Mr Turner, over to you.

PN13

MR TURNER: Thank you, Commissioner. Before I address the dispute notification, if I could just briefly voice our appreciation for listing this matter as quickly as has been done. In relation to the matter we want to look at this morning, a lot of the detail is contained in the dispute notification which all parties should have a copy of so I don't intend to go through that, point by point, but what I'd like to do is just enlarge, briefly, on some of the issues and just comment on some recent developments in relation to those issues. Commissioner, we lodged the dispute notice because of some notifications that have been lodged by the CEPU and AMWU.

PN14

A bit of background to that, Commissioner, is that there's been negotiations between the parties in relation to the renewal of a certified agreement at the Cape Flattery Silica Mine and the most recent events in relation to those negotiations were that there was a site meeting at the mine on 21 October. Now, the site meeting wasn't only in relation to the certified agreement; it was in relation to a matter of things but certainly there was some discussion on the certified agreement. Following that meeting, the company received some correspondence from the AWU which addressed six matters pertaining to the certified agreement.

PN15

Now, I have copies of that correspondence if it can be of assistance to the Commission and I just want to comment briefly on that correspondence, only to say that, when you look at it, it advises the company, through myself, that there are actually six issues that were still outstanding. Of those six issues, the issues in correspondence indicates that actually two were agreed, so the basis of that letter was that there was four matters that required further discussion. In relation to those four matters, the correspondence indicates what the AWU's position was in relation to them and - no, I don't think it's important, today, to delve into what their position was but, safe to say, is that they indicated what their position was in relation to those four outstanding matters.

PN16

On 12 November, the company responded in relation to those four matters and this response was sent, not only to the AWU, but the CEPU and the AMWU by e-mail; and that was on 12 November. I've got a copy, again, of that correspondence, just for the Commission's information and the covering e-mail to that, Commissioner, in which you will see that, in addressing the original six matters, plus the four that remained outstanding, that correspondence indicated to the three other parties to the proposed agreement that five of those matters were, in our view, agreed. And in relation to the one outstanding matter, we proposed some wording that we thought would satisfy their concerns.

PN17

I think it should be noted here that that one outstanding matter actually only related to the AWU or the AWU members on the site but really had no relationship to the - or no effect to the CEPU members or the AMWU. So, at that stage, the company has understood that the matters in relation to the certified agreement in respect to the CEPU and the AMWU had all been resolved and the one matter that was left which was in the process of being resolved related to the AWU only. That response also requested that those three unions advise the company or myself of their position in relation to the certified agreement and specifically those matters.

PN18

So, as of 12 November, that was our position. There was one matter that was almost resolved. Everything else had been cleaned from the table. Then, on 14 November, Commissioner, we started receiving some facsimiles. The first facsimile received was from the ETU and they were advising the company that they were instituting a notice or a bargaining period. They sent us a facsimile saying that they were serving us a notice and relating to a bargaining period; and, again, I have a copy of that fax for your information. Then, on the same day, we received a similar notice from the AMWU - and again I have a copy of that notice - and the AMWU were telling us that they were initiating a bargaining period.

PN19

Then, the next day, on 15 November, we received another facsimile from the ETU, this time referring to their notice initiating a bargaining period and further advising us that their members would be commencing industrial action this Friday; and there's a copy of that notice for - and this Friday was, in fact, today, Commissioner. So, as of 15 November, the company, to say the least, was a little bit confused because they'd - we'd gone from 12 November, having an understanding that the only matter related to - that was outstanding related to the AWU and that the other two parties were - all issues had been settled to receiving notices from both the AMWU and the CEPU and a further notice from the CEPU indicating that they would be commencing industrial action.

PN20

I might add that we haven't received any like notices from the AWU and the issue was an AWU issue. Because of those notices, Commissioner, we obviously had discussions or attempted to have discussions with the CEPU and the AMWU and also had discussions with the AWU as well to try and obtain information as to what issues they thought still remained outstanding and how we could adequately respond to those. We were unable to do that, to our satisfaction anyway, although, certainly, I've had quite a few discussions with Mr Threlfall. Mr Catchpole had discussions with the AMWU and I've had discussions with both Mr Brischke and Mr Noack but, because we couldn't satisfy ourselves that the notices wouldn't be acted on, we thought our only option was to lodge the dispute notice and seek the assistance of the Commission in relation to these issues.

PN21

I might add that there have been developments since we lodged the dispute notice, and those developments, I understand, are this: that Mr Marshall and Mr Cousner have had discussions with Mr John Noble, who is the AWU delegate at Cape Flattery, and also with Mr Rod Ernst, who is the CEPU delegate at Cape Flattery, and also Mr Wayne Evans, who is the AMWU delegate at Cape Flattery. In relation to Mr Ernst and Mr Evans, we understand that they have no issues in relation to this certified agreement. So again, we're a little bit non-plussed, that being the case, that we still had these notices served on us.

PN22

In relation to Mr Noble, I understand that discussions between Mr Marshall, Mr Cousner and Mr Noble have come up with some alternative wording to that one outstanding matter and although there hasn't been a final agreement on that, I understand it's working closely towards that and there's certainly an in-principle understanding of how that particular clause will operate. So it seems to us, Commissioner, that the matters that the notices cover have all been resolved if in fact there was any matters from the AMWU and the CEPU that in reality pertained to the certified agreement, and, you know, we just want to get some understanding that that is the case and one concern we have got is that although we've got a verbal advice from Mr Ernst and Mr Evans that that is the case, we still have these formal documents that, you know, we're unsure of how they'll be acted on if not today, but some time in the future.

PN23

So I think that sort of sums up the situation as we sit today, and that's - I have no further submissions at the moment, Commissioner. Thank you.

PN24

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Who can explain that up north, then?

PN25

MR THRELFALL: Commissioner, Paul Threlfall from the CEPU.

PN26

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Threlfall.

PN27

MR THRELFALL: Commissioner, as you've been involved in the past with Cape Flattery, you are aware that any process of negotiations in particular with EBAs etcetera have been fairly long and painful processes before they're finally resolved. So that is the scene in which we negotiate to try and reach a settlement on an EBA, Commissioner, and during that process the union have put forward a combined log of claims. The issues may come from the individual unions, but once they go on the log of claims they are combined. So even though Mr Turner is saying that the matter is only an AWU matter, it clearly involves the other two unions because it is a combined union log of claim issue for the EBA.

PN28

It may be that that matter can be resolved by negotiation. So it's not correct for Mr Turner to say, even though it's an AWU issue, therefore the CEPU and the metal workers don't have any interest in it. That's certainly incorrect. And we'll continue to have an interest in it until it's resolved because until it's resolved the combined membership of the three unions up there will not be voting to accept the EBA. So I just want to set the scene in that respect.

PN29

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. I understand that from what, you know, you're saying, but in terms of the latest discussions, and I appreciate there is the tyranny of distance situation up there, but are you aware then now that, as Mr Turner put it, allegedly there is some at least in principle understanding with Mr Noble?

PN30

MR THRELFALL: No, I'm not, Commissioner. As early as this morning I spoke to my delegate who advised me that the issue of the - I call it the allowance applying to front end loaders was still outstanding, and that's the issue that Mr Turner is referring to, so that's going through the process of being resolved. But, Commissioner, the members up there find themselves in the situation where they're trying to resolve outstanding issues of the EBA, but there's other issues on the periphery getting confused and tied up with the matter of the EBA. And they are, for instance, the surprise turning up on the job of Richardson, the electrical contractors, for instance, who my delegate understood was going to be supervising them.

PN31

We now find that they are not supervising the permanent electrical employees. They're only there to do an electrical safety audit. We then find that the current electrical supervisor's position is going to be expanded. It's going to be - and basically become a new position. There's going to be a new position now being established and - - -

PN32

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Look, sorry to interrupt. I do understand obviously there can be as you say all these side issues as well, but in terms of the notices in terms of initiating the bargaining period and industrial action, I mean, that relates to the enterprise of certified agreement.

PN33

MR THRELFALL: My information, Commissioner, is that the outstanding matter is still unresolved, and that is of the allowance for the front end loaders.

PN34

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, can we hear from the AWU, just so as we can get some understanding either from Mr Brischke, Mr Noble or someone?

PN35

MR BRISCHKE: Commissioner, it's Ted Brischke.

PN36

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Brischke.

PN37

MR BRISCHKE: I was sort of made aware I guess of the outstanding issue that's relating to the allowance I guess yesterday when I spoke to Mr Turner. I tried to arrange a teleconference between Mr Marshall, Mr Turner, myself and Mr Noble yesterday afternoon to try and clarify, if you like, the position in relation to 5.2 of the certified agreement that's currently being negotiated, which is in note 2, and it goes to I guess the definition of when the allowance is to be paid. I wasn't able to get that meeting yesterday afternoon, or that teleconference yesterday afternoon. However, I did speak to Mr Noble briefly this morning prior to this conference and he indicated that they were having or had had some brief discussions this morning with Mr Marshall in relation to the wording of that particular note 2, which is the outstanding issue with the allowance provision of this current EBA, or the EBA that's currently being negotiated.

PN38

Now, Mr Noble indicated to me that they were fairly close, but that they needed to have a further look at that part of that note 2 that talked about the operations of a loader at the face to ensure that Mr Noble was happy with those words, but more importantly I guess the other people who would be affected, you know, by these changes or by this wording would also be happy with that as well. Now, my understanding of it, as I said, those discussions were only held this morning. They were fairly brief, and at this point in time I'm not sure that there's been any full and frank agreement on that wording, so maybe Mr Noble or Mr Marshall will be able to advise us as to where they are.

PN39

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, that would be helpful, Mr Noble, Mr Marshall.

PN40

MR MARSHALL: Yes, well, Commissioner and Ted, we have had further discussions on the - sorry, it's Jim Marshall speaking.

PN41

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN42

MR MARSHALL: We have had further discussions with John and the other delegates here on site this morning and John Cousner, the manager. We believe we've come up with a very workable solution. Has everybody got a copy of the agreement with them there?

PN43

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you.

PN44

MR MARSHALL: Okay. Well, what we have sought to do is delete note 2 altogether.

PN45

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Note 2 at the bottom, yes.

PN46

MR MARSHALL: Okay. Then the wording in 5.23 with the change to read:

PN47

Front end loader operators whilst mining at the mine face will receive an allowance of 70 cents per hour. This allowance will be effective from the date of certification of this agreement.

PN48

John Noble, do you want to make a comment on that?

PN49

MR NOBLE: Yes. We did talk about the certification. They are getting paid it now, but - - -

PN50

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, you cut out a bit there.

PN51

MR MARSHALL: What John is saying there was a bit of a misunderstanding about the wording of the certification of agreements. We have in fact been paying the 70 cents allowance for some time.

PN52

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, that's what I thought.

PN53

MR MARSHALL: ..... in principle and were paying it. The wording says in the document all the way through "on the certification of the agreement." We just thought for consistency those words could stay there. It really is irrelevant.

PN54

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Because it's been being paid anyhow, as you say, and obviously it will continue to be paid in accordance with the new wording. Obviously, once the agreement is certified as well it will just sort of continue to be paid.

PN55

MR MARSHALL: We just thought that other wording for 5.23 would take all the ambiguity out of - - -

PN56

MR BRISCHKE: Commissioner, it's Ted Brischke.

PN57

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Brischke.

PN58

MR BRISCHKE: Jim, can you just go back and go - just repeat those words fairly slowly so I can - - -

PN59

THE COMMISSIONER: Can you just take it a bit more slowly, Mr Marshall, because everyone is trying to write down what you're saying because we haven't had it before.

PN60

MR MARSHALL: 5.23 is reworded:

PN61

Front end loader operators whilst mining at the face will receive an allowance - - -

PN62

THE COMMISSIONER: Hang on. We don't take short-hand.

PN63

MR MARSHALL: I apologise. Okay. I normally get into trouble for being a slow Queenslander.

PN64

THE COMMISSIONER: "... while mining at the face" I'm up to. Yes. What's next?

PN65

MR MARSHALL:

PN66

... will receive an allowance of 70 cents per hour. This allowance will be effective from the date of certification - - -

PN67

MR..........: Hang on. "This allowance will -" what?

PN68

MR MARSHALL:

PN69

This allowance will be effective from the date of certification of this agreement.

PN70

THE COMMISSIONER: But it's clearly understood by everyone that, as you say, it has been paid, continues to be paid and will be paid in accordance with the new wording. So is there any issue there?

PN71

MR MARSHALL: Well, not from the company's point of view. John?

PN72

THE COMMISSIONER: What about Mr Noble? Are you happy with that now?

PN73

MR NOBLE: Well, it sounds all right to me.

PN74

THE COMMISSIONER: Sounds all right to me. I can't, you know, just - not that I profess to know everything about it, but it seems to make sense. It's simple enough, straightforward enough. No ambiguity that I can see and people will be paid it and that's it.

PN75

MR THRELFALL: Commissioner, Paul Threlfall again.

PN76

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Threlfall.

PN77

MR THRELFALL: Let me just say note 2 is deleted in its entirety.

PN78

THE COMMISSIONER: That's what I understand, yes.

PN79

MR THRELFALL: Thank you.

PN80

MR MARSHALL: That's correct.

PN81

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN82

MR BRISCHKE: John, the only - Commissioner, it's Ted Brischke. John, the only concern I think that you had was if there were to be any deletions or additions to any of the paragraphs in that 5.2 allowances that there was some need to run it by the group or the combined group. You know, as Wally said, it's a combined agreement and even though the allowance is probably only paid to those members of the AWU that would be involved in that production side of the operation, but there was a need just to clarify those words with the group.

PN83

THE COMMISSIONER: Sure. Well, Mr Noble, I assume, would pass it by the members, wouldn't he? I mean, I assume that's what would occur.

PN84

MR BRISCHKE: Well, what usually happens is we send it back to the men, they go through and read it - - -

PN85

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN86

MR BRISCHKE: - - - then we have a vote on it.

PN87

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN88

MR BRISCHKE: But over the past few months it's gone away, come back, changed a few times.

PN89

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN90

MR BRISCHKE: But that's where we run into the trouble.

PN91

THE COMMISSIONER: But, I mean, it seems anyhow - I mean, maybe I'm misreading it, but it just seems straightforward enough so unless you've got any doubt in your own mind, Mr Noble, you know, what it means, I would have thought we just pass it by the guys and if they're happy then you can move on and finish everything then, can't you? Get the agreement finalised and wrap it up.

PN92

MR BRISCHKE: Yes. Commissioner, it's Ted Brischke again. I'm just wondering if Mr Turner might be able to do a new page 10.

PN93

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I'll get him to produce that for you and get it to you today.

PN94

MR BRISCHKE: If he could get that out to us.

PN95

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, we'll get it up to you pronto today.

PN96

MR BRISCHKE: We could have that point clarified and get the agreement under way.

PN97

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, fine. All right, Mr Brischke, I'll make sure that Mr Turner does that.

PN98

MR BRISCHKE: Thank you, Commissioner.

PN99

MR TRASK: Commissioner, it's Mr Trask from the AMWU.

PN100

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Trask.

PN101

MR TRASK: Commissioner, from what Mr Threlfall reported before, there appears to be a number of periphery that are causing some concern and I'm concerned that these will spill over into the - basically, where our members vote on this document, that may cloud the issues and it might be worth reporting some of those and getting a position from the company so that at least we can go to a meeting with a clear position of the view of the company.

PN102

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I would have thought that might have, if anything, confused the issue. I mean, if you've got an agreement, then try to have the agreement dealt with, put to bed, and then obviously if there are issues, obviously they've got to be addressed, but they could be addressed once that's done, I would have thought.

PN103

MR TRASK: Well, yes, Commissioner, I understand that. I think it's for that purpose that I've raised it because I don't think it's going to happen like that.

PN104

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Can I just ask Mr Turner then to make some comment. Do you have something to say?

PN105

MR TURNER: Yes, I do, Commissioner, thank you very much for that. I just want to say something about what Mr Trask has said and before I do that though, just - and I don't want to be pedantic but I just want to say a couple of things about what both Mr Threlfall and Mr Brischke said. I appreciate what Mr Threlfall is saying about - that it is a combined negotiations from the three unions and the company. I take that point, but when he says that they had an issue with the allowance that was going to be paid to AWU members only, then he seems to be saying that it's quite legitimate then for him to - for their union to start serving these notices.

PN106

I'd just like to take a couple of comments, that all the information about that allowance was forwarded to both the AMWU and the CEPU on 12 November and we invited them to respond on it. We didn't get a response. What we got was the notices initiating a bargaining period, and I would have thought that if they had an issue with it, which Mr Threlfall seems to be saying he has, that the way to do that would be to come directly to the company about it.

PN107

Secondly, Mr Brischke is right; there was discussions yesterday about a telephone conference and I'm sure he wasn't implying this but I just want to clarify it, that it wasn't a matter of the company not making itself available to participate in that conference with him, because I discussed it with both Mr Marshall and Mr Brischke and we talked about having a conference this morning before this conference now. The difficultly was that there was - that all the parties weren't available at the same time, so it was a logistic issue, and I just wanted to clarify that.

PN108

In relation to Mr Trask's comments, yes, as always in workplaces, there are issues that need resolving. When we met on site, and I won't go through all the things we discussed on the site, but one thing that is worth mentioning here is that we agreed around the table and all those present in this conference including Mr Trask and Mr Noble, were there that day, and Mr Ernst, and one of the things we did agree on, that we would in the future follow the disputes procedure that's in the certified - the current certified agreement and will be in the new certified agreement, that there would be - the practice of ringing authorities off the site wouldn't continue until such time as this procedure had been exhausted.

PN109

So the company's comments there is that if these issues exist, they're quite happy to talk to the employees about it and that procedure should be used, and we don't believe that they really should interfere with the employees approving or not approving the certified agreement. Thank you, Commissioner.

PN110

MR BRISCHKE: Commissioner, it's Ted Brischke here.

PN111

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Brischke.

PN112

MR BRISCHKE: If I could just make a comment. In relation to my comment about the meeting, I was just making reference to that; I didn't mean that - I wasn't - you know, there was an inference there that the company wouldn't or couldn't - - -

PN113

THE COMMISSIONER: No, I didn't take it that way, Mr Brischke.

PN114

MR BRISCHKE: No, but certainly with the other issues that Mr Threlfall has raised and they are issues that could go, I suppose, to the hearts of people who may be going to vote on this thing. What I done yesterday and today, again have concern - I mean, the same concerns that the other officials have, that these issues may have an impact on the voting of the people up there.

PN115

The issues that I'll be - that I've written to Mr Marshall about is, sort of, the contractors, the change of rosters, the store-persons who had security of employment, those issues that have been raised, I guess only since yesterday, I'll certainly be - and I'll certainly ask for Mr Marshall and Mr Turner and Mr Catchpole, if necessary, and Mr Threlfall, and the metal trades delegate, to be able to sit down and talk about those issues because they are matters of concern as to how it's perceived that the company is going about business in dealing with those without again, I guess, the consultation process that's contained in the agreement taking place or any of this stuff taking place before that consultation.

PN116

So as I said, I've already written to Mr Marshall and asked him to sit down and talk to us and if necessary with the other unions to try and get a position on all of these issues because it would appear from discussions that I had with people on the site yesterday that that could be, you know, I guess, real live issues that could create a further dispute at the mine site.

PN117

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you.

PN118

MR ERNST: Rod Ernst. I would like to reply to Mr Turner there, electrical ETU delegate up here.

PN119

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Ernst.

PN120

MR ERNST: Yes. Well, I saw your dated 12th agreement first time today. I think that's really good communications. Also this company doesn't seem to regard the EBA as a binding document. This is the third time where we've agreed on this EBA; they've taken it away, printed it out and sent it to us and it's different from what we agreed on. That's three times. So something had to be done, we had to come to a conclusion. Otherwise it's going to keep going.

PN121

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, the amended page will be provided today in accordance with the discussion. Everyone has written down - I've certainly written down and the Court reporter is here so it's all monitored as to what's been agreed, so there shouldn't be any doubt as to what's now finally hopefully put an end to the issues.

PN122

MR ERNST: Yes, what we have is other areas of the agreement that the company isn't following too. This is the same agreement. The company has to learn to read the agreement and abide by it as well as us reading the agreement and abiding by it.

PN123

THE COMMISSIONER: Certainly agreements are binding on all parties and the Commission expects all parties obviously to adhere to it, including to the disputes procedure and obviously there are issues, as Mr Brischke and Mr Trask and Mr Threlfall have raised that need to be discussed and they - as per your own agreement. They should be discussed in accordance with that procedure. Mr Brischke has already put some correspondence into the company so, I mean, that can occur in a normal way.

PN124

MR TRASK: Yes, I'd just like to respond to some of the comments that were made by Mr Turner on my original - that, you know - and I understand what Mr Brischke has also said that it's all right for Mr Turner to say that we all sat around a table and nodded our heads about following a disputes procedure. These circumstances - we certainly don't go away from that position about following our disputes procedure, but because the waters are getting so muddy with what we see as inappropriate behaviour of the company since that day, industrial reality is saying to us that it's going to interfere so much with the process of putting an agreement together and that is getting the nod from our members on it.

PN125

Now, specifically, one of our members in the stores, for example, Commissioner, read about his job advertised in the local paper. Then when he inquired about the position of this advertisement, he was told, "Oh, we do get other people in because you blokes aren't smart enough to do the job", and subsequent to that, this new person would then decide who stayed and who goes. Now, when these sorts of comments are made, or alleged comments are made, it goes a long way to muddy, you know, any sort of planned process that is agreed to prior, and I think it would help greatly if we could get a firm position or an understanding of exactly what's going to happen with these matters.

PN126

MR TURNER: It's Ian Turner again. You know, that's exactly my point, that first of all we don't think there has been any bad industrial practices on there. We don't accept that. Secondly, my point is that if you have issues like that, that we say you should address them through the disputes procedure and the simple facts are that hasn't happened. When Mr Ernst says that the first time he's seen my correspondence is today, I can't really be held to task for that, because I forwarded it to all the officials on 12 November or 14 November, so it was put out through the right channels.

PN127

Now, I can't comment on why or why you did not see it until today. Second of all, the point we make is that if these issues need to be ventilated, we said at that meeting and we'll say again today that we've got a procedure that we've all agreed on that should be used, and I don't think that's an unrealistic position to take.

PN128

MR CATCHPOLE: Commissioner, if I might just say something. Len Catchpole. The bottom line is this: we discussed an EBA, a proposed agreement. As a result of those discussions, a number of meetings have occurred in relation to the EBA. There was one matter outstanding that affected a portion of the work force in respect of whose union they were in for the moment. That related to the wording on how to apply an allowance; an allowance that is already being paid. So that there would be no bastardry to put it bluntly down the road, the wording has been changed again but not the effect. The people who are entitled to the 70 cents allowance are getting it.

PN129

So, in good faith, what it boils down to in our opinion is the EBA per se, the agreement, has been addressed to the satisfaction of the parties. The one remaining issue being the allowance wording. It will not change its application. All it did was new words were added to facilitate a request at the time that they use the wording of a previous document. There was some confusion over that: today that's been I believe resolved. So from the EBA standpoint and from the certified agreement standpoint, there are no outstanding issues. Now, as to how the unions wish to address it is obviously for their discretion.

PN130

It's a matter of - they put back as a result of their meeting of 22 October, a number of things: all of which have now been addressed to their request, to their requirement; that's all been made. As to these peripheral issues as people want to refer to them as, be it the contractor, Wally, be it the storeman, Darren, whatever, they are ongoing issues. They are the day to day issues and will not affect the structure of the certified agreement. Now, they obviously have to be addressed. And I'm not familiar with what has occurred to date in that regard, but clearly the people who can have some input into resolving those issues are the people at Flattery.

PN131

It's only if there's no resolution there, I would envisage the matter coming before you. But it certainly does not fall within the ambit of the bargaining issue. The bargaining matters to my understanding in Flattery now have been finalised to the extent that the issue that the unions were concerned about, the 70 cents, has not only been paid but the words they wanted they've been granted. Now, I fail to see how a meeting can reject it because they've been given everything they want.

PN132

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I think the situation is that, as I understand it, the amendment page will be provided, the agreement will then be in a format where presumably it can be considered by the employees, and any issues that arise either today or tomorrow or during the life of the agreement can be dealt with in accordance with the disputes procedure. I mean that's just normal practice. So I don't see why based on what I've heard why there should be any impediment to the agreement going forward. Unless there is anything else, gentlemen?

PN133

MR TRASK: Well, Commissioner, it might help - it's Mr Trask here - it might help if we can get some sort of commitment for the mine - for the managers when we can actually sit down and go through these other matters.

PN134

MR MARSHALL: Yes, if I can respond to that, Commissioner, at everyone's earliest convenience.

PN135

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, well, I would expect that would be the case. I can't see any difficulty. Well, I assume from all that that despite the notices having been served in terms of the initiation bargaining period, industrial ..... and that - I assume that matter is not going any further then?

PN136

MR THRELFALL: Sir, ..... Threlfall from the CEPU.

PN137

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Threlfall?

PN138

MR THRELFALL: Our union has got the notification of industrial action to take effect as from today on the basis that it now appears - to me anyway - that the outstanding issues in respect to the EBA have been resolved. And therefore it can then now go forward to the members up there in Cape Flattery and then hence on from there to a formal vote. I would say that there would be no industrial action at this point in time. I would suggest to the management up there it would probably be in their best interests to ensure that the vote, when it does take place, takes place in a fairly clean atmosphere; that there's no other outstanding issues.

PN139

And I would suggest to them in their best interests that in the meantime between now and when the vote takes place, they certainly sit down at least with the delegates up there, discuss the issues as outlined by Mr Brischke in his letter such as rosters, the stores job, the use of contractors etcetera, and try to have them ..... before the vote takes place so that members can make an informed decision without anything else clouding their view.

PN140

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, look, I understand that, Mr Threlfall. I don't have any disagreement with that either. As I say, I'd concur with what you say. And as I say, the discussions can go on in accordance with the procedure. The company have made it clear they're happy to talk. I can't see why there would be any holding up of that ..... signalling to me any hold up in those sort of discussions going on so, no, I agree with what you say.

PN141

MR THRELFALL: Thank you.

PN142

MR TURNER: Excuse me, Commissioner. It's Ian Turner again. In fact, that actually has taken place over the last couple of days so it's already happening.

PN143

THE COMMISSIONER: It can continue on from here as well so. All right, anything else from anyone else?

PN144

MR EVANS: .....question is why isn't the AMWU doing it. We had a short discussion with management up here this morning. A lot of the things I think we can resolve without any further involvement from you people, but going along with Darren's suggestion that we get together once again and try and sort something out ..... Jim is in agreeance. Being as was suggested before or stated before we're sort of in a distant place here. We come in and out, week on week off, type of thing. We only get half of the information and that's why it took so long last night and today to sort this out. Had we have known a bit more information a bit earlier, it does make things easier, but communications are a bit of a problem. We can sort that out, but I'd like to be able to try and set a date while we're all here now, when we can all get together if that's okay with you. Thank you.

PN145

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I agree that I'm sure you can as you normally do resolve most things on site yourselves. Everyone does appreciate the distance factor and what that does. I would think it's a matter for you know you people really in the north to find yourselves some mutually convenient dates and just proceed ahead. You don't need us to help you with that. As you say, you do it regularly so I can't see there being any difficulty now.

PN146

MR EVANS: Yes, but the reason we wanted the 72 hour bargaining period was just to get this thing on the move because it's been going on for about 11 months, and quite frankly, we're getting sort of a bit sick of it. So we'd just like to get it over and done with and keep everyone happy and try and get the show back on the road.

PN147

THE COMMISSIONER: Sure. I think listening to everyone, no one is singing off a different sheet of music, I don't think. I think everyone is saying the same basic thing so I'd agree with you. I mean the sooner it's put and resolved the better for everyone's sake. As you say, it has been a long time; there's no doubt about that. But I can't see any impediment now to what we've said about going forward. All right, gentlemen, we'll leave you to it. Thanks very much.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [12.20pm]