C0094/699, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 5091 (18 December 2002)

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

O/N 100202

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER RAFFAELLI

C No 00946 of 1999

MARITIME INDUSTRY SEAGOING AWARD 1981
COMPENSATION FOR LOSS OF CERTIFICATE
OF COMPETENCY AGREEMENT

Review under item 51, schedule 5,
Transitional WROLA Act 1966
re award simplification

SYDNEY

1.31 PM, WEDNESDAY, 4 DECEMBER 2002

THIS MATTER WAS CONDUCTED BY TELSTRA CONFERLINK TAPE

PN1

Telstra conferencing recording of Commissioner Raffaelli's conference call for Australian Industrial Relations at 1.30 pm Melbourne daylight savings time on 4 December 2002. If you require assistance during the call, please press star then zero on your phone or dial 1800 003 734 and quote conference ID 101. Thank you, please go ahead.

PN2

MS ..........: If everybody holds I will just put the Commissioner on.

PN3

THE COMMISSIONER: Hello.

PN4

MR ..........: Hello.

PN5

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, who is that?

PN6

MR WYDELL: This is Mr Wydell.

PN7

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Wydell. It is Commissioner Raffaelli here. Who else is there?

PN8

MR J. GREEN: Jim Green, from the Australian Shipowners Association.

PN9

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN10

MR CICAMO: Mr Cicamo AMMA.

PN11

THE COMMISSIONER: AMMA - yes, anybody else? Now, we don't seem to have Mr Burns? Anyway, not to worry. The situation I think on the last occasion was left on the basis that Mr Burn would draft a document and forward it - well, would forward it to the parties and that was in the light of whether - yes, there were a number of options whether in fact the awards should be set aside or if they did survive then they should be simplified and if they were simplified whether in fact there should be one award for both the offshore industry and the maritime industry. Now, he drafted something which he circulated and I understand, Mr Green, that as far as the shipowners are concerned that draft was acceptable - what Mr Burn had prepared was acceptable to you. Now, what is the situation - is that the situation, Mr Green?

PN12

MR GREEN: Yes, it is the situation, Commissioner.

PN13

THE COMMISSIONER: So the text of what he prepared was okay with your organisation?

PN14

MR GREEN: Yes. Well, I reviewed it, Commissioner, and made a couple of minor amendments.

PN15

THE COMMISSIONER: I see, right. What we didn't hear from is Mines and Metals, Mr Cicamo. What is the situation?

PN16

MR CICAMO: Well, Mines and Metals - and I quickly indicate that we don't represent in terms of the employers I don't have any instructions from Manning Services Australia Pty Limited, I don't have any instructions from Dolphin Drilling - - -

PN17

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN18

MR CICAMO: - - - or BHP Petroleum or ..... or Woodside Petroleum but I do from the rest. So I represent the rest this morning.

PN19

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN20

MR CICAMO: We have reached agreement with AMP and inserted the provisions of this award into our enterprise agreement so in terms of actual entitlement to employees this is not going to matter in terms of removal of a benefit or anything like that - - -

PN21

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN22

MR CICAMO: And in terms of the award continuing we haven't invested - we don't intend to invest any time arguing whether it is an allowable matter or not - - -

PN23

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN24

MR CICAMO: - - - and we will leave that to the Commission's .....

PN25

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, okay.

PN26

MR CICAMO: - - - and we don't oppose it. We do have, and I apologise for not being able to talk to Mr Burn about this, we do have a couple of what I would consider drafting changes in general to suggest but in particular there is probably just two issues that go to substance that I would want to have changed.

PN27

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN28

MR CICAMO: One goes to the question of the payment of the allowance at the graded rate. That is what the old award said and from what I can gather in Mr Burns' draft is included a provision out of a study leave clause that says if you have been serving at a higher rate - - -

PN29

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN30

MR CICAMO: - - - it is 12 months then you pay at the higher rate. In terms of previous simplification processes it has never been seen as an improving of conditions exercise so it is not a big deal but I raise it as that to identify that that is a new provision - - -

PN31

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN32

MR CICAMO: - - - not a provision that was in the old agreement. The only other change that I suggest for the smoother working of the benefit and not to be seen as breaching the award is where he has put:

PN33

The board shall decide on each and every case.

PN34

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN35

MR CICAMO: We suggest that it just be re-drafted to say that where there is a disagreement as to the entitlement the board will determine it because in practice the board has only met I think once in the last you know multiple number of years because there has never been any disputation over entitlement so to meet every time I think is excessive and I just suggest that if there is a dispute over it then the board would meet.

PN36

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I see.

PN37

MR CICAMO: And the only other suggestion is pure drafting and I would just suggest that the employers be listed in a schedule rather than be listed in the definitions clause .....

PN38

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, now the other thing is this. Are you happy for the one award to cover both industries?

PN39

MR CICAMO: Look, I think we would prefer to keep it as a separate award.

PN40

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I am wondering whether - you see, because you started off by saying there were a number of companies that you did not represent it would seem to me that if we did keep it as a separate award then they have got even less reason to complain.

PN41

MR CICAMO: Yes.

PN42

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, okay, but that is your preference - right. Yes, okay.

PN43

MR GREEN: Commissioner, if I may - it is Tim Green again.

PN44

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes?

PN45

MR GREEN: The instruction from my members if that they would strongly prefer to keep the agreement or the new award as a separate blue water offshore industry award.

PN46

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, you would like it as one would you, Tim?

PN47

MR GREEN: No, two separate awards.

PN48

THE COMMISSIONER: Two separate awards, okay.

PN49

MR GREEN: If I may too, Commissioner, on the point about the board will meet on the issue that Mr Cicamo raised from AMMA.

PN50

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN51

MR GREEN: I have spoken to Mr Martin Burn about that from the institute given that the board has met as you are aware for several years and in the discussions with Martin Burn the discussion we had together was that, the conclusion that we had was that was more a reference to the old agreement and in no way was that sort of implying that there will be such a thing as a board if you understand what I mean but I do agree that it should be re-worded.

PN52

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. What - I am now reminded or I now recall that Mr Burn was going to be overseas I think in this week or couple of weeks. What we will do is when the transcript - this is available we will forward it to Mr Burn and therefore he will be aware of your concerns - your separate concerns, Mr Green and Mr Cicamo, and he will obviously communicate with you either he has agreed any changes in it or you have further discussions. So that will be the situation. Mr Wydell, you have been silent but you are obviously affected by this as well. What is your position?

PN53

MR WYDELL: Yes, Mr Commissioner. Look, I think it is probably easier just to have one award so to speak covering both sectors. I have a copy if you like of a document that was supplied to me by Mr Burn.

PN54

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well, I think the others have got that as well.

PN55

MR WYDELL: Yes.

PN56

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN57

MR WYDELL: As I say, I don't have any problem with the text of that document. I note that there is a couple of sort of minor changes needed in terms of numbering etcetera but insofar as the text goes, you know, we don't have any problem with it.

PN58

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, okay. Well, look, what I will propose to do is to adjourn and I will - when Mr Burns is back we will make contact with him and ensure that he becomes aware of the concerns you have expressed. It seems to me we are almost there. My gut feeling is that if the employers want to maintain separate awards then I don't know if there is a lot to be gained by sort of upsetting them and having one award. I mean, they are pretty brief. We are not going from 10 awards down to one where there might be some advantage. The two awards have a role in the sense that the employer organisations are separate. I mean, Mines and Metals is in one and the Shipowners is in the other. To mix them together may, you know, confuse things. So anyway that is for Mr Wydell to worry about but I hear what the others have said and it seems to me to have some merit.

PN59

In respect of all the other matters well then Mr Burn will I guess take that on board and we will discuss it with him. If need be we will re-list the matter. The only matter that does concern me, but I am awaiting Mr Burns' advice, is how this entitlement is allowable. It possibly is. It is probably in the nature of an allowance and we will get to it in due course but as I said that is about the only matter of interest that I have or concern that I have. But anyway, on that basis these proceedings are now adjourned and thank you all.

PN60

MR GREEN: Thank you.

PN61

MR WYDELL: Thank you.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY