C2002/5317, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 5107 (19 December 2002)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220

Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N VT1137
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER EAMES

C2002/5317

THE AUSTRALIAN LICENCED AIRCRAFT
ENGINEERS ASSOCIATION

and

FORSTAFF AUSTRALIA PTY LTD

Application under section 170LW of the Act
for settlement of dispute (certification of
agreement) re appropriate remuneration
arrangements

MELBOURNE

10.00 AM, THURSDAY, 21 NOVEMBER 2002

PN1

MR G. NORRIS: I appear for the Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association. With me is MR D. MORARJI.

PN2

MR T. MELHUISH: I appear for Forstaff Australia Pty Ltd. With me is MR D. TOWNLEY.

PN3

THE COMMISSIONER: What is happening? Tell me about it.

PN4

MR NORRIS: Well, Commissioner, the parties are party to a certified agreement, being the Jobs Australian (Aircraft Maintenance and Refurbishment) Avalon Site Agreement III 2001-2003. And I might hand a copy of that up, Commissioner, if I could.

PN5

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. I will mark it as an exhibit.

EXHIBIT #N1 JOBS AUSTRALIAN (AIRCRAFT MAINTENANCE AND REFURBISHMENT) AVALON SITE AGREEMENT III 2002- 2003

PN6

MR NORRIS: And, Commissioner, I have actually handed up two documents just for the ease of transport.

PN7

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

EXHIBIT #N2 JOBS AUSTRALIA (AIRCRAFT MAINTENANCE AND REFURBISHMENT) AVALON SITE AGREEMENT III VARIATION 2002

PN8

MR NORRIS: Commissioner, just for the sake of clarity the smaller document, N2, is actually a variation to the certified agreement, which was also certified as well. Commissioner, the parties in negotiating this agreement were mindful that the type of work that people were doing were on aircraft related to the Qantas air fleet. And the union sought some agreement with the company, and the certified agreement, to maintain some industry standards. And so that at this stage of negotiation that any variations to the industry standard, being the Qantas standard being the majority of the airlines in Australia - in particular in maintenance - there was a clause inserted in the certified agreement, a clause 32. Now, Commissioner, if I can take you to that. It is on page 44.

PN9

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. I have got that.

PN10

MR NORRIS: Now, Commissioner, the parties were mindful that if there was any dispute that arose from the interpretation of this agreement or the way the agreement should apply, then the parties would embark on a process of falling back to, in effect, the default being some agreements that were in Qantas that defined in greater detail some alternative conditions of work.

PN11

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN12

MR NORRIS: Now, clause 32 basically says that if the parties have some disagreement they will go through the disputes procedure, but clause (c) of that relates to the situation that we are in now. And clause (c) says:

PN13

In the event that the above mentioned agreements -

PN14

which are effectively the Qantas agreements -

PN15

in (a) and (b) are varied, terminated or replaced then the parties must review this agreement ...(reads)... completed within three months of the alteration to the above agreements in (a) and (b).

PN16

Now, Commissioner, the parties have been meeting for some time and that was triggered, initially, by the Qantas LAME Agreement being varied, the certified agreement being varied. And as a result of that variation, the exhibit N2, the Jobs Australia (Aircraft Maintenance and Refurbishment) Avalon Site Agreement III Variation 2002, that variation was agreed to and certified in the Commission in May of 2002. Subsequent to that, the AMWU and the AWU reached agreement with Qantas in regard to a certified agreement as well.

PN17

Now that certified agreement was the Qantas Airways Ltd AWU AMWU Enterprise Agreement V, which I have an Osiris copy here, Commissioner, which I might hand up.

PN18

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Thank you.

EXHIBIT #N3 QANTAS AIRWAYS LTD AWU AMWU ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT V

PN19

THE COMMISSIONER: And this was subsequent to the variation that you people agreed?

PN20

MR NORRIS: That is correct, Commissioner. Yes.

PN21

THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay.

PN22

MR NORRIS: Now, this agreement was certified around the end of May of 2002 and the parties entered into negotiations to determine the parity in regard to this agreement. Now, during the discussions a dispute arose over the application of clause 32(c). Now the essence of that dispute is that the ALAEA believes that clause 32(c) restricts the parties to deal with the variations of certified agreements within Qantas to the scope of the variations with the Qantas agreements.

PN23

Now the company made a counter-claim during the negotiations and expressed a desire to change the hours clause in exhibit N1. Now, Commissioner, that hours clause contains certain provisions in regard to the hours of work, roster arrangements, and it also facilitates agreement to a roster arrangement, or work arrangements, by means of a written agreement called a shift agreement. Now that shift agreement is an attachment to the certified agreement and is at the back of the exhibit N1.

PN24

Now, the company has foreshadowed that at some time they wish to expand the business at Avalon. And that may involve the implementation of new roster arrangements. And the company sought, in the negotiations for - the negotiations for parity, to make the claim that in effect they could bring the core agreement in line with Qantas-type arrangements for changing of rosters. Now, our view is that that part of the dispute has already been settled and agreed to and certified and that it is not up for grabs in the variation.

PN25

Because in the AMWU agreement, that I have just handed up as N3, there is no mentioned of hours of work or rosters and in effect they have not been varied within the Qantas system. So while we say that for all intents and purposes the only argument in relation to parity is to how exhibit N3 should be, for want of a better word, flowed on to the people at Avalon under the auspices of clause 32(c), the company is of the view that they have the right to open up more claims, or all claims in regard to bringing agreements in line for their view of parity.

PN26

So in effect the essence of dispute, Commissioner, is that we have a difference over the application of clause 32(c) and how that should be applied. We are of the view that the action of clause 32(c) restricts the parties to deal with the variations to the Qantas agreements and not to bring in extra claims in regard to the whole of the Qantas agreements.

PN27

THE COMMISSIONER: 32(b) talks about - or it makes reference to the Qantas Agreement IV. The one that you have handed up is agreement V which was negotiated subsequent to the variation to your agreement.

PN28

MR NORRIS: That is correct, Commissioner.

PN29

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay.

PN30

MR NORRIS: Well, Commissioner, might I say that the AMWU Enterprise Agreement V, which is the one I have handed up, invokes the AMWU - previous enterprise agreements of the AMWU.

PN31

THE COMMISSIONER: So it incorporates them into that agreement as well.

PN32

MR NORRIS: Yes. And livens them, yes, so they cascade.

PN33

THE COMMISSIONER: Nothing like complicating life, is there?

PN34

MR NORRIS: I think the parties at next round will be looking at some sort of consolidation. That is the way it is at the moment. But in essence the variations that are contained in the AMWU agreement basically went to wages and allowances.

PN35

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN36

MR NORRIS: Now, Commissioner, when the - before the agreement was certified the parties had some discussion in regard to what actually clause 32(c) means. And correspondence was exchanged between the parties in regard to that. And if I could hand up copies of that correspondence.

PN37

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, certainly.

PN38

MR NORRIS: Commissioner, I also have a photocopy of the Macquarie Concise Dictionary - the word "parity" which may assist the Commissioner.

PN39

THE COMMISSIONER: I think I am open to all the help I can get.

PN40

MR NORRIS: So are we.

EXHIBIT #N4 CORRESPONDENCE OF 31 JULY

EXHIBIT #N5 CORRESPONDENCE OF 2 AUGUST

EXHIBIT #N6 EXTRACT FROM MACQUARIE DICTIONARY

PN41

MR NORRIS: Now, Commissioner, if I could take you to the correspondence. We had some information meetings with our members at the time that the exhibit N1 was being put to the members for vote. And the members requested that we get some clarification of the intention of the company in regard to the application of clause 32(c) because it did replace a previous clause which was more specific and that related just to wages and allowances. And in essence, Commissioner, on page 2 of N4, the last paragraph, it says:

PN42

However, the employees decided to have clause 32(c)'s application clarified in plainer English ...(reads)... accordance with the movement of the base rates for similar classifications in Qantas.

PN43

Now, Commissioner, we subsequently received a letter from the company, the one that is marked N5, dated 2 August 2001 and signed by Mr Doug Townley, the general manager of aviation. And it says:

PN44

In response to your letter dated 31 July 2001, I offer the following clarification ...(reads)... and shall be undertaken with achievement at least parity being the primary objective.

PN45

That was the position of the parties at that time. The ALAEA is of the view that in negotiating parity as such the scope of those negotiations could only be confined to in effect the trigger, which the trigger being the replacement agreement, or variation to those agreements. I am sure Mr Melhuish will clarify the company's position. Commissioner, we may - once we get the company's position on record the parties propose that we adjourn into conference as the matter might be better off dealt in that manner.

PN46

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. All right. Thank you. Mr Melhuish, we had better hear from you.

PN47

MR MELHUISH: Thank you, Commissioner. I will keep my submissions at this time fairly brief, Commissioner. I think Mr Norris is correct in saying there is some value in going into conference. Just to clarify the company's position, Forstaff is a labour hire company and we provide staff to Qantas Airlines at Avalon in their maintenance facility. The issue that we are discussing today are rather complex but Forstaff's position, essentially, is a simple one. As a labour hire firm we supply labour to Qantas. And by the very nature of our business we must, subject to basic employment conditions reasonable in this industry, be able to supply labour to client on the terms that they require to meet the needs of their business.

PN48

The variation that we are seeking in the latest - to the hours of work clause in the latest variation proposal comes out of a requirement to expand the business. Our client has told us that they wish to expand the business. They wish to create some 150 new jobs in Avalon. However, the shift pattern that is being worked at the moment may not be appropriate. So whilst looking at the provisions for the hours of work clause there was some concern that it may be difficult for us to vary the shift patterns. So we sought, in the latest variation negotiations, to get some change to those words.

PN49

It should be noted, Commissioner, Mr Norris has handed up the variation document that was a variation made to the Jobs Australia Agreement III. In that particular variation the company also sought some changes to words in some of the clauses and that was ultimately agreed to. The company would have thought that if there was some concern by the association that we weren't able to seek some changes to the clauses in the agreement other than wages and conditions then they would have raised those concerns at that time.

PN50

But we have already done one variation and therefore we undertook this - this negotiation in good faith on the understanding that we were able to go to other issues other than just wages and allowances. So I will leave my submissions there, Commissioner, and seek that we go to conference and try and deal with the matter there.

PN51

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Thank you. You have got nothing further to put at this stage, Mr Norris?

PN52

MR NORRIS: No, Commissioner.

PN53

THE COMMISSIONER: No. I will adjourn these proceedings into a conference.

NO FURTHER PROCEEDINGS RECORDED

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #N1 JOBS AUSTRALIAN (AIRCRAFT MAINTENANCE AND REFURBISHMENT) AVALON SITE AGREEMENT III 2002-2003 PN6
EXHIBIT #N2 JOBS AUSTRALIA (AIRCRAFT MAINTENANCE AND REFURBISHMENT) AVALON SITE AGREEMENT III VARIATION 2002 PN8
EXHIBIT #N3 QANTAS AIRWAYS LTD AWU AMWU ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT V PN19
EXHIBIT #N4 CORRESPONDENCE OF 31 JULY PN41
EXHIBIT #N5 CORRESPONDENCE OF 2 AUGUST PN41
EXHIBIT #N6 EXTRACT FROM MACQUARIE DICTIONARY PN41