C2001/5491, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 69 (2 January 2002)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N 1782
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER BLAIR

C2001/5491

BENDIGO HEALTH CARE GROUP and
OTHERS

and

HEALTH SERVICES UNION OF AUSTRALIA

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of an industrial dispute re staffing levels and
workloads

MELBOURNE

1.12 PM, FRIDAY, 14 DECEMBER 2001

Continued from 5.12.01

PN444

THE COMMISSIONER: Good afternoon. Any change in appearances?

PN445

MR DOUGLAS: Yes, Commissioner. I now appear with MS BATTEN along with MR BRITTON.

PN446

MR STEPHENS: And similarly, Commissioner, I appear now with MR B. O'CONNOR and MS L. WHITE.

PN447

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Stephens. Right. Who would like to lead off please? Mr Douglas.

PN448

MR DOUGLAS: Thank you, Commissioner. Commissioner, I forwarded a letter to you yesterday which sets out the purpose of these proceedings today. I assume the Commission received that correspondence.

PN449

THE COMMISSIONER: I did. I am just trying to find it.

PN450

MR DOUGLAS: Well, sir, for the purpose of the record I would indicate that the purpose of these proceedings is to seek the discharge of an order which the Commission as currently constituted made previously in this matter relating to the implementation of the senior management structure in mental health in Southern Health. Commissioner, I can confirm that whilst there are two unions who are directly interested in this matter, one of the unions, the Australian Nursing Federation, won't be attending today, the reason being that they have indicated they have no further objections in relation to the implementation of the structure, and I think a letter was forwarded by Mr Gilbert of the ANF to the Commission confirming that fact.

PN451

THE COMMISSIONER: I have a copy of the letter sent to yourself. That is dated 12 December; is that right?

PN452

MR DOUGLAS: Yes, Commissioner.

PN453

THE COMMISSIONER: Right. I have got that. I can't recall a specific letter from the ANF to the Commission.

PN454

MR DOUGLAS: Okay. Well, the copy of the letter I have, sir, has a courtesy copy to yourself - - -

PN455

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN456

MR DOUGLAS: - - - and also Mr Stephens, and it may well be that - - -

PN457

THE COMMISSIONER: That is right, and Ross Longhurst.

PN458

MR DOUGLAS: And Ross Longhurst, yes, being the organiser from the ANF.

PN459

THE COMMISSIONER: Right. That is the only correspondence that I have got from the ANF which is a copy of what has been sent to you.

PN460

MR DOUGLAS: Yes, and that is the correspondence upon which we rely for the assertion that the ANF consents to - or perhaps more accurately no longer objects to the implementation of the senior management health structure.

PN461

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN462

MR DOUGLAS: Now, I can report, sir, just in relation to the ANF that there were further discussions between myself and Mr Gilbert this morning where at one stage that position which I have just put to you was not absolute. However, I can now report that in fact it is confirmed on the basis of a fax which I forwarded to Mr Gilbert to the effect that the ANF expressed a concern that arising out of the negotiations which had taken place between the parties, there have been some changes to the nature of the position of service manager CAMHS - that being the adolescent mental health area - and arising out of that it was the position of the ANF that the position should be re-advertised.

PN463

We had previously advertised the position, but had held off making any appointments to that position as a result of the direction issued by the Commission. I can now report that we have reached agreement with the ANF, and we put this today to HACSU as well, we will agree to re-advertise that position on the basis of the changes which have been made, and that is contained in a fax which I forwarded to Mr Gilbert. So what we say, sir, is that the position of the ANF in relation to this issue continues to be that it has no objection to the discharge of the direction previously issued by the Commission in relation to this matter.

PN464

Commissioner, that brings me then to the issue of substance which is before the Commission today, and I would like to hand up two documents in these proceedings. Commissioner, the first document which is headed - well, it is dated 19 November 2001 - it is addressed to Mr Longhurst of the Australian Nursing Federation and it is headed Proposed Reorganisation of Mental Health Program Management Structure.

PN465

THE COMMISSIONER: Hang on just a minute, Mr Douglas. There was a letter, if I recall, from Mr Stephens, I think, to the Commission, is that right, asking that the matter be re-listed for programming?

PN466

MR STEPHENS: Yes, Commissioner, in accordance with the submissions and the position put by the Commission on the last occasion we were before you.

PN467

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN468

MR STEPHENS: The submissions, I should say, of the employer.

PN469

THE COMMISSIONER: Right. I am just trying to find it in order - - -

PN470

MR STEPHENS: Commissioner, it is a letter dated 10 December. I have a copy if that would assist.

PN471

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, it is all right, I have got that. I just was looking for it for a matter of completeness. Thank you.

PN472

MR DOUGLAS: Now, Commissioner, we would seek to have both of those letters marked in these proceedings as exhibits.

EXHIBIT #SOUTHERN2 LETTER DATED 19/11/2001 TO MR LONGHURST

EXHIBIT #SOUTHERN3 LETTER DATED 04/12/2001 TO MR STEPHENS

PN473

MR DOUGLAS: Commissioner, if I could first turn to exhibit Southern2, this is a letter which is addressed to Mr Longhurst of the Australian Nursing Federation. I can report to the Commission that a letter in identical terms was forwarded to Mr Stephens from HACSU of the same date. Commissioner, this letter arises out of, as I say, the direction which was issued by the Commission previously. We are at somewhat of a disadvantage in relation to that direction, sir, in terms of its details and how it arose because we weren't directly represented in those proceedings, but we understood that it arose from concerns expressed to the Commission by the unions that Southern Health was - and I think Southern Health was not the only health service that was accused of this - being that we were improperly using funds provided by the Department for the filling of professional development positions for the purposes of financing changes to the senior management health structure.

PN474

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN475

MR DOUGLAS: Commissioner, this letter was proposed to address that - that concern and also a range of other matters and whilst I am not proposing to take the Commission through the full details of that letter I simply point out that on page 2 - they have set out the concerns that have been expressed, that is, as I have said that Southern Health was somehow improperly using funds, which remember had been provided by the Department for the creation and filling of full-time psychiatric nursing to finance the mental health structure.

PN476

Sir, it is our position today and if we can satisfy you that that is not the case, that in fact the funding has not been improperly directed for a purpose other than for which it was intended that the Commission, on that basis, should be satisfied and discharge the order which it made in these proceedings on a previous occasion and it is our position, sir, that that is the case.

PN477

I would start with, or ask the Commission to turn to page 2 with our opening position being that a survey was conducted by VHIA in these proceedings and the survey in effect was for the purpose of ascertaining whether or not there were any psychiatric nursing positions that met the criteria required under clause 130 of your recommendations in these proceedings.

PN478

The response of Southern Health to that question was that at that time we had no position which met the criteria as laid down in your recommendations. There was in existence, sir, a position of Programme Nursing Director but it was the view of Southern Health that that position did not meet the criteria of a 75 per cent clinical duties because a substantial part of the duties of that position were management and administrative in nature and so the position of Southern Health was that we did not have a position which met that criteria.

PN479

As a result, and as a matter of inescapable logic, therefore the funding which was utilised or proposed to be utilised by Southern Health in relation to that matter would go to the creation of new positions and that those new positions would meet the criteria as laid down by your recommendation in these proceedings.

PN480

And so that is the purpose which we rely - or the purpose for which we provide an exhibit in Southern 2. Notwithstanding that, Commissioner, you would be aware that there have been a number of discussions between the parties and there has been quite a deal of communication between the parties in relation to the concerns expressed by the union. And so on - and arising out of those discussions a letter was forwarded to both the ANF and the HSUA and that letter is Southern 3 which sets out the terms of an offer of settlement by Southern Health to the unions in relation to the concerns that they express.

PN481

In summary, sir, what that offer does, it provides for a variation to the operation of the structure in that the position of Service Manager, or if I could use CAMHS, which is the Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service, that position would have as a requirement in its qualifications that the occupant be a registered nurse and that secondly the other position of Service Manager in the structure being the Service Manager Area of Mental Health Service, would be required to collaborate with the Service Manager, CAMHS position on professional nursing matters.

[1.24pm]

PN482

That was the nature of the offer which went to both organisations. It was also a term of that offer that they inform the Commission that it - that their concerns were met by the terms of this offer and as I previously advised to the Commission, we believe that offer of that term of the offer has been met by the ANF but it does not - has not been met by HACSU and hence we are here today. Sir, in summary, it is our position that the conditions which are required to be met for the discharge of your direction in this matter, have been met.

PN483

It is our primary position that all along that Southern Health had not improperly used funding which was provided for the purpose for which it was intended, being the establishment of professional development psychiatric nursing positions. It is our alternate position that if that were not accepted, that the offer which has been made to the unions and accepted by one of them, certainly meets the requirements for the discharge of that order, being that a position of service manager CAMHS, is now in effect the successor to the position of program director of nursing.

PN484

In effect there is no change to the senior management nursing position and on that basis the Commission should discharge the direction. Now there is just one final point that I would make, sir. We recognise that there continues to be a number of concerns which both unions have in relation to other matters which relate to the structure beneath the senior management structure. We don't move away from the fact that certainly HACSU and the ANF have expressed concerns as to, in effect - if I could broadly summarise those concerns, which go to the number and the level of classification of registered psychiatric nursing positions.

PN485

And we give an absolute commitment that we will comply with the Commission's recommendations in this matter in that we will sit down and consult and negotiate with the unions and the implementation committee in relation to their concerns. In the event that those concerns can't be - or the parties' concerns can't be resolved at that level, there is, of course, scope to bring the matter back to the Commission. And so we say that to the extent there are any other concerns which they have, it can be resolved through that process, and therefore that does not represent any relevant consideration in terms of the discharge of the order that we seek today, if the Commission pleases.

PN486

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Douglas. Yes, Mr Stephens.

PN487

MR STEPHENS: Thank you, Commissioner. Commissioner, we again, as I complained of on the last occasion, heard again this afternoon of a lot of discussions that have taken place between Southern Health Care and the ANF, again to the exclusion of the HSUA and that is condemnable. With regard to what Mr Douglas believed to be the proceedings - or the purpose of today's proceedings. On the last occasion that we were before you, Mr Douglas indicated that he would seek that the issue ought to be arbitrated.

PN488

The Commission indicated that that appropriate course of action ought to be on the next occasion if that was necessary - if we were unable to resolve it by conciliation, that it ought to be set down for programming. It was on that basis, Commissioner, that discussions between myself late Friday afternoon - on late Friday afternoon of 7 December between myself and Mr Britton who is before the Commission today, indicated that I would, in fact, notify the Commission of our - of the parties' request to have the matter re-listed for arbitration.

PN489

Hence the letter which you have before you dated 10 December. If anything, if we are unable to resolve anything by agreement today, that ought to be the appropriate course of action because that is the course of action that the HSUA was clearly led to believe would occur and to that extent, that is what we were prepared for. If the Commission pleases, Mr Douglas indicated that he had correspondence from the ANF attesting to their support for the proposition. We have no evidence of that.

PN490

We have not been provided with any correspondence from the ANF. We have been provided with no copies of correspondence from the ANF by Southern Health Care Networks. We don't know what they have agreed to, what they haven't agreed to. Indeed, I can only assume that what you have before you at the moment is that they agree to something, but we don't know what it is because we haven't been provided with a copy of that. I think it is important that we pick up on a point that Mr Douglas raised, and that is this issue of the VHIA survey that was conducted.

PN491

Now we have got to remember what actually happened, Commissioner, and as Mr Douglas described it, is not what actually happened. What actually happened was that in the 111AA proceedings before yourself last year, the HSUA put arguments in support of at least 21 senior nurses in each area of mental health service. The employees vehemently opposed that proposition and they vehemently opposed it on the basis that they already had those positions in place. Your decision determined that there is to be 21 of them appointed nevertheless, because you heard arguments from us as well and in the end you - the Commission determined in favour of the HSUA.

PN492

What also was part of that decision was that a job description was developed, role descriptions were developed for the senior nurses and they were developed, Commissioner, by a body that was set up under - by the Commission by the implementation committee. Under the implementation committee there was a sub-committee called the Statewide Education Training Professional Development Committee. In short, the SETPD committee. Now that SETPD committee was charged singularly with the responsibility of determining what the jobs and the responsibilities and roles of the senior psychiatric nurse ought to be.

PN493

Southern Health was represented on that Committee, as was members of the Department of Human Services, as was a number of members of the VHIA, as was a number of members of - a number of senior psychiatric nurses. Following the development of that job description, the VHIA then surveyed its members and said do you have a job in your structures which matches this. And they all wrote back saying no, including Southern Health. Once the answers no came back, the Department of Human Services/Government then released funding to all of the organisations.

PN494

Funding for Southern Health in the order of something like $160,000. After the funding was made available, we then find that Southern Health is saying well, the functions of their existing director of nursing position can be picked up and done by the new senior nurse, bearing in mind they said they didn't have a position which performed any of those duties. So what happened then, is that Southern Health looked at its structure and said we are going to abolish the senior nurse and replace it with the new positions. Now if I could tender a copy of correspondence dated 21 November, Commissioner, from ourselves to Southern Health.

EXHIBIT #HSUA9 CORRESPONDENCE DATED 21 NOVEMBER

PN495

MR STEPHENS: And if I could just take the Commission to it. In particular, I guess, the first two paragraphs where there is an acknowledgment by Southern Health that the functions and responsibilities of the new senior nurse is consistent with those of the current positions, so they will be performing duties which are consistent with. Importantly, the second paragraph, and this came out of a meeting following - the Tuesday following the - your direction, a meeting between ourselves, Mr Britton, Mr Djoneff and Ms Batten, where they very clearly said to the extent that we quote them:

PN496

That the senior psychiatric nurse will replace the existing disciplined senior.

PN497

That, despite almost four weeks ago, has never been refuted. These positions that arose out of the professional development package which are the RPM5s and the RPM4s and also importantly, the RPM6s and 7s, are intended to be over and above, by nett, current classifications and structures. They can not be subsumed into; they can not replace; they must be over and above. A look at the proposed structure of Southern Health reveals that compared to the existing structure, they are at least two down, because they have abolished the senior positions.

PN498

Now I will take the Commission back to the staffing and case loads dispute, which is very recent of course. I tender to the Commission a copy of correspondence to Tim Lee, who of course, is the Assistant Director of Industrial Relations of the branch and he was the person senior from the government involved in those negotiations. We would like to tender this document, Commissioner.

EXHIBIT #HSUA10 CORRESPONDENCE TO TIM LEE

PN499

MR STEPHENS: And now, the Commissioner might recall that in the discussions that we had about additional staffing that is to flow from the resolution of that particular dispute, one can not isolate the additional positions that will run through the 111AA process which included, of course, the senior nurses. So any outcome that we got from the recent staffing dispute, had to have on top of those senior nurses. Now if I could just take the Commissioner to dot points 2 and 3, where we confirm that with Mr Lee, that that was his position and the position which we all supported.

PN500
It is very clear that the additional 21 RPN4, 21 five positions within the professional development package and the 21 six and seven senior nurses are nett additional positions over and above existing positions and structures. If we were to be true to Mr Lee's position, which he very forcefully put - if we were to be true to that, the minute we take away any position in the existing structure, we don't have a nett increase and all of a sudden our outcomes have been discounted. We are losing the positions. The nurses are losing the positions. So they must be nett increases.

PN501

The next very important point is point 3, because you might recall, Commissioner, during those proceedings we raised concerns that they were not being implemented to bring about nett increases. It was agreed that there is to be a tracking of the appointment to ensure that there is in each service a nett increase. So very, very clear as to what was to go on. With respect to what Mr Douglas referred to as the CAMHS proposal, you might recall, Commissioner, that was put to us in a letter late on 4 December.

PN502

The following morning we got a listing in the Commission to be here at 1 o'clock. We came along and said - I might have said to everybody, was that I have got an arrangement with Southern Health that what we will do is we will set up a meeting of some senior nurses on the Friday nad I will run it past them to see what their views were. Well, what we did - I did that, and what - the upshot of it all was that there were some concerns raised about how it would actually function. I will find the letter. Some of those concerns, Commissioner, are in this attachment - in this letter which I will tender.

EXHIBIT #HSUA11 DOCUMENT

PN503

MR STEPHENS: And rather than dismiss the proposal, rather than walk away from it, rather than not contemplate it, rather than not consider it, we identified some problems with it. Now isn't that reasonable? And then once having identified some problems with it, the employer would respond and say okay then, we have noted your problems, let us get together and see if we can work these through. Try and come to some resolution at the other end of it.

PN504

And we did that, and we in fact not only identified problems, but we advanced ideas about how they might be able to address it. And integral to all of our positions all along, is that we have not said they should not introduce the type of model that they would like to. We have always said, if you want a service manager type position, you do that, but you do not disturb or you do not undermine or you do not dismantle the nursing structure. That is absolutely fundamental and one, Commissioner, we can't walk away from.

PN505

Commissioner, you would also note some further correspondence which I am struggling to find at present, where I believe we may have sent copies of it - here we are. Letter dated 10 December which you referred to earlier, where we advised the Commission that we had, in fact, sought - proffered a number of alternative models and sought the discussions but the employer refused to entertain any notion of discussions with us. And particularly, Commissioner, I will tender this particular letter here which is dated 11 December.

EXHIBIT #HSUA12 LETTER DATED 11 DECEMBER

PN506

MR STEPHENS: Now these points in this letter, Commissioner, actually come out of the meeting with very senior nurses and it was senior nurses that I was meeting with on that Friday who indicated these are the types of concerns that they have about the model that was being proposed. So this is not something that David Stephens has conjured up. This is not something that we have thought about around the office or anything. These are the people at senior nurse levels on the ground who are going to have to live with and work within the type of arrangement that they say they are going to be required to work within.

PN507

The senior nurses say that the proposal advanced by Southern Health with respect to the CAMHS service manager is the status quo. There is already, and has been for some time, a service manager at CAMHS. That position is a nurse. This is nothing new that they have put to us, Commissioner. It is what is in place already. The current incumbent of the director of nursing position says that it is 60 per cent of his function or of the function of nursing duties, not as they content from the Bar table, no nursing duties. The horse's mouth in evidence will tell you it is at least 60 per cent.

PN508

Other concerns functionally, and I guess go to the matter of merit, also are involved that it is the only workforce - nursing is the only workforce under this proposal that won't have a reporting relationship to its own discipline head. It is the largest discipline. There is over 250 nurses, Commissioner, and they won't be reporting to the discipline head. Imagine the outrage if that was a doctor. It would be an outrage. And I make the point, Commissioner, that where the largest discipline doesn't have the opportunity to report through to its own discipline head, the problems that creates in communication.

PN509

Nurses when they report matters of nursing issues, they are not reporting the day's events. They are reporting, referring to and seeking consultation on very significant issues dealing with the minds of mentally ill people and what is proposed here and the concerns expressed by the nurses is that if they are required to report to somebody who has no knowledge of these matters, that is going to be detrimental. I also note, Commissioner, of grave concern, is on page 2 of this letter and that is what is in the second paragraph.

PN510

Up until now, we were of a view that the only position in the structure that they were going to abolish was the director of nursing position. In an off the hand question in a correspondence dated in HSUA11, Commissioner, in the last dot point on page 2, I inquisitively simply asked the question:

PN511

I trust that the organisation does not intend to abolish the existing positions within the structure. Your advice on this would be appreciated.

PN512
And to that I referred to the RPN5 positions. There had been no advice to us by Southern Health that they were intending to do anything with that position at all. I just asked the question in the context of a proposal that I was putting to them the other day. I find out Friday, they are. How do I find out? I find out on Friday in the form that is expressed in the second paragraph of my letter dated 11 December which is HSUA12. You will also note, Commissioner, and you will also note it on every piece of correspondence you have that is tendered by the HSUA, that we invite discussions.

PN513

In HSUA12 we invited them to have discussions with us to talk about the types of concerns raised by the nurses. They didn't respond. I indicated to them that I was available over the weekend to meet if need be. I was available right up till now to meet and discuss with them. I had a meeting yesterday afternoon with a - with Ms Batten, and that was only as a consequence of accidentally running into the CEO of Southern Health at the Health Department. And he and I said - he suggested to me that "You need to get hold of Robin Batten". And I said to him "Well, you contact her and make sure that she rings me, because at this moment I haven't had any contact at all from any of them".

PN514

Other than Mr Britton on occasion who had contacted, I have had no meetings at all other than the one yesterday with Ms Batten. I have had no meetings at all - at all with Mr Douglas. I have had - well, no. I will with withdraw the first one. I have had one meeting with Ms Batten, and that was the one to which I referred to earlier. Subsequent to that there have been none. The level of negotiation in this has been absolutely abysmal.

PN515

THE COMMISSIONER: So, where are the parties - have the parties arrived at the point that they are at, which is where - that there is no agreement, other than with the AMF, simply by way of correspondence?

PN516

MR STEPHENS: Well, yes, Commissioner. That is - you are - yes. I have had one meeting on - when was it? The 14th, I think, of November. With Alec Djoneff from VHIA, Ms Batten and Len Britton. And one meeting yesterday with Ms Batten. I had a cup of tea, as one does in these things, with Mr Britton. And - when I put forward a number of proposals, which - the proposals were never responded to. They never responded to them. Well, I will tell you how they responded, Commissioner.

PN517

They responded by notifying that the matter ought to be re-listed. That is where we have been at. And it has really - and it has been exceptionally frustrating that that has been the way in these - these proceedings have had to have been conducted. So we don't accept their proposition that the moneys within their existing nursing structure remain with nursing. We don't accept that. If, at the very minimum, they say that they are using nurses' money to go off into administration, that is the - that is - that is not disputed with them.

PN518

They are required, Commissioner, to put in place a professional development education structure that deals singularly and specifically with that function. That function does not, does not, have a reporting relationship from unit managers, or other clinicians. It was made very, very, very clear by the Statewide Education, Training and Professional Development Committee, of which as I said, the employers are well represented, and the Health Department is well represented. That it is not to have any reporting relationships.

PN519

The current Directors of Nursing position out at Southern Health have a reporting relationship from their nurses, in one form or another. Take it away, and they have none. We have just gone through two-odd weeks of dispute in relation to the staffing crisis in mental health, particularly in mental health nursing. Commissioner, what - and we all sat there and we pondered where will we get these nurses? Can we get these nurses? Can we recruit them? Are they there? Will they come back? Commissioner, what nurse is going to go into a service that doesn't have a career path. That is the bottom line with respect to on the ground concerns. We, as I indicated, believe we are here for conciliation, and/or programming. That, Commissioner, is to the extent that we are prepared for.

PN520

We have - do so with that in - do that in good faith. We are happy to avail ourselves to conciliation if that is worthwhile. But it may well be worthwhile that we do start turning our minds to a process of programming. On the basis of our submissions. On the basis of the employers only concessions. And on the basis of just sheer logic. The Commission ought not be satisfied that the employer is discharging his responsibilities in accordance with the directions of the Commission, or the recommendations of the Commission, and all that followed from that. Nothing has convinced us of that. If the Commission pleases.

PN521

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Douglas?

PN522

MR DOUGLAS: Thank you, Commissioner. There is effectively only two points that I wish to make in response. The firstly goes to issues of the level of consultation and negotiation taking place in this matter. And secondly, in relation to confirmation, if you like, of our assertions that what - the nature of the issues that are before the Commission, we say that - well, look, the issue that is before you and which you only have to content yourself with is whether or not we have discharged our obligations in relation to the use of funding, for the purpose of the establishment of the senior management structure, or whether we have used any funding for that purpose. If we have satisfied the Commission that we have not done so, there is no reason for a discharge of the direction which you have previously made in these proceedings.

PN523

THE COMMISSIONER: Except that if the direction is lifted. If the direction is lifted, you proceed to advertise for these two Service Manager positions, where there is no agreement, other than with the ANF.

PN524

MR DOUGLAS: Well, what we say is that there is nothing been put to you by Mr Stephens which should cause the Commission any concern in that regard.

PN525

THE COMMISSIONER: But - - -

PN526

MR DOUGLAS: Because the issues that he raises go to the question of the reporting, of the lines of reporting to that position.

PN527

THE COMMISSIONER: But - no, no, no. But the second point that he raises, you know, unless I have heard it wrong, is that the two positions are not net additions.

PN528

MR DOUGLAS: No. We accept that they are not net additions. But the issue - the - - -

PN529

THE COMMISSIONER: So the argument then is that they are not net additions. If you are abolishing two positions, as I understand it, the Director of Nursing, and then the Assistant Director of Nursing - - -

PN530

MR DOUGLAS: No. There is only the one position, sir. There was only ever one position which was the program - Director of Nursing.

PN531

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, as I understand Mr Stephens, he advised that the Assistant Director of Nursing is being abolished. Is that right/

PN532

MR STEPHENS: Yes, that is the advice I was given on - - -

PN533

MR DOUGLAS: Commissioner, there - this comes back, this point of how we categorise the nature of the issues. We confine ourselves, as we believe the Commission should confine itself, to the issue of whether or not the senior - the establishment of the senior management structure in any way compromises the recommendation of the Commission under the 111AA proceedings in relation to the establishment of professional development registered psychiatric nursing positions.

[1.54pm]

PN534

What we are saying here is that that is one issue as to whether or not what we say is that there is one - there was one position in the senior management structure, which was formerly the Programme Director of Nursing. We say that that position was never a nursing position as defined by the Commission, in its recommendations, in a sense that it was 75 per cent of its time was spent in clinical duties. But nevertheless what we say is that that position has been abolished, that is certainly the case and a position of Service Manager, CAMHS, has been created.

PN535

That position of Service Manager, CAMHS has, as its qualification requirement, the requirement that the position be - or the occupant be a registered nurse and holding a current practicing certificate. So, what we say is that under the old structure and the new structure, there continues to be a position which has a requirement that it be a registered nurse in a line management role.

PN536

The issue which - or the concerns which HACSU expresses to you, we say, goes to the question of the line of control to that position. What lines exist between the other registered psychiatric nursing positions below that level. In other words, should there be and if I could perhaps summarise it, should there be a side line structure in the sense of registered nursing - registered nurses reporting to registered nursing up to the - the Service Manager position, or should there be as we would propose a matrix arrangement where the varying - the various disciplines are brought together to provide a service and in that matrix arrangement the structure - each of the disciplines are to complement each other rather than to have them in their various silos.

PN537

That is the issue which, in effect, is before you. We say that that is a matter which doesn't go to the senior management structure. That is an issue which relates to the level below the senior management structure and that is a matter which, we say, if that is the position that HACSU wishes to take we fully respect their right to do that and we say in accordance with your recommendation that is a matter that needs, in the first instance, go to the - to the local implementation committee to form resolution if possible.

PN538

If, ultimately, resolution cannot be found it is then to find its way back to this Commission. That is the process which comes from your recommendations and we say that we will comply with those recommendations and we say that the position that we take in relation to the establishment of the Service Manager, CAMHS, does not offend that.

PN539

There still is, in the senior - at a senior level a senior nursing position with line management responsibility. Now, I put that to the Commission, as I said in my opening as our secondary position because our primary position is that the position, or the former position of the Programme Director of Nursing did not have as its prime - as its responsibilities, clinical - or did not have as its major responsibilities clinical duties and that in effect, I think, almost synthesises the differences between us and that is perhaps a matter of evidence.

PN540

But, it is not relevant, you see. It is not relevant. The reason it is not relevant is because there is still in the structure and I would refer the Commission to - just to confirm this - in HSUA7 the Service Manager position CAMHS, as the result of the negotiations that have taken place has as its requirement, or has as one of its basic qualification requirements that that person be a qualified nurse holding a current practising certificate. No difference of what the Director of Nursing wants, or the Programme Director of Nursing.

PN541

THE COMMISSIONER: But, if what you say is right, and one of the issues raised by Mr Stephens was the career structure why is there such fierce opposition to it?

PN542

MR DOUGLAS: Because of it, sir, the philosophical position I think the difference between us is that HSUA2 would have a silo of nurses - nurse reporting to nurse up to the level of Director of Nursing. Our position, which is based on what we believe to be best practice in this area is that there be a consolidation, if you like, into a matrix arrangement - - -

PN543

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN544

MR DOUGLAS: - - - of the varying - of the various - - -

PN545

THE COMMISSIONER: Discipline.

PN546

MR DOUGLAS: - - - disciplines, that provide that service and that is a philosophical difference. In a sense we may well be back here on some future occasion to debate that and we will be calling evidence from various experts in that area but that is not a matter which we believe is currently before the Commission. The issue that is before the Commission is that the issue must be confined and be brought to recommendation 130 of your recommendations under 111AA, that is the issue, Commissioner. The issue is, is there a net addition to the number of nursing positions arising out of the funding? That is the only question that is before you.

PN547

We say that you can draw a comparison between the duties of the Programme Director of Nursing and the current - and the Service Manager, CAMHS to the extent - and, as I say this is our alternate position, this is not our primary position. Our alternate position is that if you are required to have a comparison between the old and the new that is the level of comparison. There is no reduction in senior nursing positions with line management responsibility.

PN548

Then the next question becomes below that - below that level, have we properly applied the funding in relation to the establishment of the senior nursing positions and how should that structure - well, how should the lines of reporting appear. That, we say, is the second question. That is not a matter which is the subject of your recommendations. It may well be the subject of a dispute. That dispute needs to be ventilated fully in the local Implementation Committee and unless - and if the parties cannot reach an agreement, well then it ultimately ends up before the Commission. That is the process. So, sorry, sir.

PN549

THE COMMISSIONER: That is all right. What - if the Commission lifted its - its direction and I understand what you say about its philosophical - may be a philosophical argument, if the Commission lifted its direction and you proceeded down the track that you propose it ultimately may become the subject of a dispute anyway which the Commission has got to revisit.

PN550

MR DOUGLAS: Which dispute would that be, sir?

PN551

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, this philosophical argument about the - the line of reporting.

PN552

MR DOUGLAS: Indeed, and it seems to me as though without trying to put this - make this any bigger than what it is - - -

PN553

THE COMMISSIONER: So, why would I give myself another pain in the butt?

PN554

MR DOUGLAS: Well, we say you don't have to give yourself a pain in the butt, in that sense.

PN555

THE COMMISSIONER: No, you will give it to me, I suppose.

PN556

MR DOUGLAS: Well, perhaps we will give it to you, sir, or HSUA2 and ANF collectively can. Well, I won't go there, but it probably relates to broader questions, sir, which relate - go to that ultimate of the work level standards contained in the - in the Psychiatric Services Agreement now, I don't know. Those issues may well be ventilated - as to how best practice in this area can sit with work level standards that could be argued prescribed that certain functions must be performed by a nurse. That may well raise all sorts of questions that need to be debated at a level far higher than any issues relating to merely Southern Health.

PN557

THE COMMISSIONER: I am curious as to - as to how Southern Health - I mean we will get to this issue in a minute of - of this perceived lack of consultation - - -

PN558

MR DOUGLAS: I will be delighted to deal with that issue, sir.

PN559

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Now Mr Stephens says that basically he hasn't sat down with you at all.

PN560

MR DOUGLAS: Well, let me just say firstly at the outset. That is the richest comment I have heard in this Commission for a long time. The reason I say that is that all - we are here today because of submissions by both the ANF and the HSUA2 in relation to alleged misuse of funding. An allegation was made. We weren't here. We weren't here to be able to defend ourselves. Nor was there any notice given and so the direction is - is given and we have laboured under the - - -

PN561

THE COMMISSIONER: The wisdom of the Commission.

PN562

MR DOUGLAS: - - - on the back foot, if you like, in relation to that ever since. So, they say there hasn't been any consultation but they don't say, "Come along, Mr Southern Health, because we are about to stick one into you, and you have an opportunity to put your side of the story".

PN563

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, you might be a bit peeved off about that.

PN564

MR DOUGLAS: I might be a bit disturbed about that and the organisation might be. However, that is life.

PN565

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. But, given that direction was issued - - -

PN566

MR DOUGLAS: That is life.

PN567

THE COMMISSIONER: Right. Has there actually been any discussions between yourself and Mr Stephens? I am not talking about correspondence - - -

PN568

MR DOUGLAS: Well, yes, now - - -

PN569

THE COMMISSIONER: I am talking about actual, you know, the old fashioned sitting down around the table with a cup of tea and a Tim Tam.

PN570

MR DOUGLAS: Okay. Well, let me come to that. And Mr Stephens will be well aware that in terms of the way in which the Human Resource services are provided in Southern Health is at best practise, in that it is devolved to line management. Human Resources Department doesn't set policy of the various programmes for the way in which the - the services are to be provided. That is done by line management. That is an arrangement that has been in place and is regarded by world's best practice by any organisation.

PN571

Consistent with that philosophy and arrangement I am instructed that there have been a number of discussions, at least five phone calls between Mr Stephens and Mr Britton, who has the responsibility in the programme in relation to these issues. In fact, after the last proceedings, Commissioner, there was a meeting out here in the corridor between Mr Stephens and Mr Britton. Arising out of those meetings there was then an organisational chart which was drafted up which was an attempt by Southern Health to exhibit how it saw the - the proposal operating. And that was provided to the Union. So, to say there has been no discussions is total misrepresentation. Total misrepresentation. There have been a number of discussions.

PN572

There have been - certainly there has been a volume of communication in the form of the written letter, that is certainly conceded but, as I say, there have been a number of phone calls and in fact in Mr Stephen's own words there was in fact a meeting yesterday with a person at the highest level in the organisation in that programme where the concerns - or had an opportunity to be resolved. That is - and Ms Batten is here today. So, a number of phone calls between Mr Britton, a full and frank discussion with Mr Stephens and the Programme Director and I would pose the question back, "What further can be done?".

PN573

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, who has the ANF been talking to?

PN574

MR DOUGLAS: Well, the ANF has been talking to myself, I have certainly had a number of discussions with Mr Gilbert. I am not sure whether those discussions have also taken place with Mr Britton, I would have to seek instructions. But the point is we haven't had to have the same level of discussion with the ANF because an agreement has been able to be reached.

PN575

THE COMMISSIONER: But, I mean, understanding the position that the ANF take and the role that they play, there must have been some fairly detailed comprehensive discussions with them for them to understand and for them to accept what is being proposed. They don't do that lightly.

PN576

MR DOUGLAS: No, they certainly don't. Well again I cannot report on how the ANF came to their various decisions. All I can say is that I can confirm there have been discussions between - well, sorry, there was the level which is now Southern 3 - - -

PN577

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN578

MR DOUGLAS: - - - which went to the ANF and HSUA2. There was then one more phone call to myself from Mr Gilbert who indicated that he proposed to send a letter, which he did and which - which is the letter dated 12 December. I can confirm for the Commission that is the only level of discussion that has taken place with that organisation. Certainly, Mr - and I would confirm that in that discussion certainly Mr Gilbert was very, very forceful with me in relation to the other concerns which the ANF has and I would give no impression to anyone that there is a done deal between Southern Health and the ANF in relation to those issues which is below the Senior Management structure.

PN579

Certainly, Mr Gilbert was extremely articulate and forceful in expressing concerns and explaining to me the process that the ANF proposed to take. That is that it will, most definitely, represent its concerns in - at the Implementation Committee level. But in terms of its concerns about the - the - that which gave rise to the direction, its concerns have been met as set out in the letter which the Commission has been provided a copy of.

PN580

THE COMMISSIONER: I mean part of Mr Stephens' argument is - is that this discipline would be the - the major discipline would be the only discipline where it does not have its own reporting structure - - -

PN581

MR DOUGLAS: That is not the case, Commissioner.

PN582

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - and basically the allegation is that it wipes away a career path when there is difficulty at a time in attracting psych nurses either back in or attracting nurses to the psychiatric services to - to comply with the various agreements and the - and the number of VFT that have been agreed to.

PN583

MR DOUGLAS: Well, we say that assertion has no basis at all, sir. If you refer to HSUA7 - - -

PN584

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN585

MR DOUGLAS: - - - you will see that the various disciplines there, being social work, OT, psych and speech and that they - and including nursing - they report to the Service Manager. Now, to the extent there is undoubtedly a need for an organisational chart below the level of service manager and that hasn't been drafted yet and that was my submission on the last occasion and it continues to be the case, despite some other concerns in other letters that have been expressed by Mr Stephens and so to say that other disciplines - or they report to a senior in a line management role is simply not the case.

PN586

THE COMMISSIONER: And the CAMHS - the CAMHS structure is the one that will have a qualification - - -

PN587

MR DOUGLAS: That has a qualification - - -

PN588

THE COMMISSIONER: As a nurse.

PN589

MR DOUGLAS: - - - of a - of a nurse with a current practise certificate, yes and so, as I said, sir, in our secondary position if you like we say that there is no net change to the senior nursing structure in terms of the line management level. They are still the same. We - our primary as I have said, and I have said on more than one occasion now is that we say that wasn't necessary to comply with your recommendation but nevertheless arising out of negotiations and discussions this is the position that we have reached.

PN590

THE COMMISSIONER: What is the position of Southern if or what course do you think should be fired if the Commission decides not to lift its direction?

PN591

MR DOUGLAS: I would have to seek instructions on that, sir.

PN592

THE COMMISSIONER: Sure.

PN593

MR DOUGLAS: Obviously - - -

PN594

THE COMMISSIONER: I understood that it was a question then of arbitration.

PN595

MR DOUGLAS: Yes, sir. Well, ultimately that is the position.

PN596

THE COMMISSIONER: Sure.

PN597

MR DOUGLAS: We believe that would be a highly regrettably point to reach. It would also require that there be some exploration or directions from the Commission as to what are the issues to be the subject of the arbitration because we don't want to come here with a case which - prepare for a case and then have HSUA2, for example, appear at an entirely different case.

PN598

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN599

MR DOUGLAS: I don't think that would be very helpful for anyone.

PN600

THE COMMISSIONER: That could appear under two different Commissioners.

PN601

MR DOUGLAS: Well, that is right. It is a different Commission in fact. The point being, sir - well, there are other - perhaps other issues that could be raised. The point being, sir - - -

PN602

MR STEPHENS: Well, we will get it from the transcript later.

PN603

MR DOUGLAS: This is holding up, sir - this is holding up the - I mean the reality is that unless we can get the senior management structure issue resolved we cannot proceed with the appointment of the - the next level of positions and then you will have a dispute, sir, from HSUA and probably the ANF as well, that we are being tardy in the creation and filling of those positions, but how can we fill them when we haven't got the senior management positions filled - - -

PN604

THE COMMISSIONER: But you haven't created them yet.

PN605

MR DOUGLAS: The senior management positions?

PN606

THE COMMISSIONER: No, no, the positions below, have you?

PN607

MR DOUGLAS: Well, there is funding has been provided for it, I understand and I think that the position descriptions as in submissions of Mr Stephens and I think he is in a much stronger position than I am in relation to this, but position descriptions for those positions have been created.

PN608

THE COMMISSIONER: Have?

PN609

MR DOUGLAS: Yes, well, I understand that was arising out of the broader proceedings that were before you and so it is a question then of going through the recruitment process. We cannot go through the recruitment process without the people who have to conduct the recruitment process being in place and so it would be highly regrettable if this whole process was held up simply because of the position being taken by one union in this matter.

PN610

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

PN611

MR DOUGLAS: Thank you, Commissioner. Mr Stephens, I mean what do you say - Mr Douglas seems to have addressed all the issues that you raise as of concern. The basic difference seems to be that you, according to Mr Douglas, that you require a - sorry, not you, but the Union and your members require a cylinder approach, that is that instead of a broad range of - the discipline approach you require one discipline, that is nursing, with its own structure with its own area and that is it.

PN612

MR STEPHENS: If, five weeks ago they thought they would start to have some discussions with us they would have found out that that is false. I relayed that that proposition advanced by Mr Douglas just then is false. I relayed that to Ms Batten yesterday. That is a false assertion.

PN613

THE COMMISSIONER: So, where does the proposed structure disadvantage your members if - if they are reporting to a service manager that has - that is a qualified, registered nurse, with its own reporting structure?

PN614

MR STEPHENS: Yes, Commissioner and those concerns are to some extent reflected in probably HSUA10, 11 and 12. Let me say this, Commissioner. The position of the CAMHS Service Manager as a nurse is already there. They are not giving us a thing. It is already there. It has been there since I can recall. We will put the person on the witness box if they don't believe me. He is a registered psychiatric nurse. I have worked with him. I have worked with him when he did his training.

PN615

THE COMMISSIONER: So, that is - no, that is no recommendation. What - - -

PN616

MR STEPHENS: No, Commissioner, I won't say anything about that.

PN617

THE COMMISSIONER: So, what - well, hang on - what have they been doing?

PN618

MR STEPHENS: What have they been doing?

PN619

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. If you say that they are there, that they, sorry that they are there already, what are they doing - what is their title?

PN620

MR STEPHENS: Service Manager. This is only in relation to CAMHS, Commissioner.

PN621

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN622

MR STEPHENS: Only in relation to CAMHS.

PN623

MR DOUGLAS: Sir, can I help in that regard?

PN624

THE COMMISSIONER: Sure, that may help.

PN625

MR DOUGLAS: Sir, I am instructed the position which I think to which Mr Stephens refers is a one year - has funding for one year only.

PN626

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN627

MR DOUGLAS: It does not have on-going funding. It just happens to be occupied by a registered nurse, but does not have, as a fundamental requirement, that it be filled by a nurse, if the Commission pleases.

PN628

MR STEPHENS: The position is filled by a nurse. There has been nothing to suggest otherwise. In fact, Commissioner, let me take you through a process. That position was filled in the first instance by a higher duties appointment. Positions that became vacant under it, as a result of that - and this is factual, as a result of that appointment have subsequently been recruited to and filled permanently. So, all - so, the position from whence the current incumbent of the Service Manager came from is filled permanently now. He cannot go anyway else, but nevertheless the existing structure provides for the very thing that they are saying they are going to provide for. Now, Commission can I just take you to HSUA7.

PN629

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN630

MR STEPHENS: And it makes good our assertion. We see there that we have a discipline senior for social work, OT, psychology and speech. We don't have a discipline senior for nurse. It is the only discipline, show me where it says we have a discipline senior for nurse. We have a senior nurse, yes, we have a position of senior nurse, but Commissioner, that is the position of the one that you recommended ought to be implemented in October last year. That is what that position is.

PN631

If they had a discipline senior, the senior nurse would be that the discipline senior would be there under discipline seniors. In addition to where it says, "Senior Nurse". It makes good our assertion and let me - and another comment from Mr Douglas that makes absolute our assertion is where he talks about he is constrained from filling the positions so called under, that is the PD position, the Professional Development positions, there should not be anything restraining Southern Health from filling those positions.

PN632

That is - it is new money. They are new identified positions with new money - dedicated money. There should be nothing to preclude them. Why are they precluded from filling the position? The reason is this. Because they have decided not to fill them yet. Why? The reason is this. Because they are looking to use the positions as substitute for the existing position - excuse me - which are in dispute.

PN633

They have got the funding. Fill them. Recruit to them. It is not contingent on anything that they do with their service manager position - sorry, their - their senior management position, whatever it is. It is nothing to do with it. We have said we do not oppose the concept of a service management position but that should not come at the expense of the nursing structure.

PN634

We must remember, Commissioner, the single purpose of that professional development structure was to start to address the damage done to mental health and psychiatric nursing over the last few years. It is a crisis. The Health Department acknowledges it as a crisis. It was designed to start addressing that crisis and it had a specific focus. Education, training and professional development. To support new grants - new graduates in their professional development and the like. Not, as a substitute reporting relationship of unit managers, for example. It was never intended to do that.

PN635

THE COMMISSIONER: But what you propose is a cylinder.

PN636

MR STEPHENS: Well, no more so, Commissioner, than say Allied Health, Medical. It is a reporting relationship. No more so. And Allied Health - you are not - look at this proposition here on HSUA7, you see for example that under the - the diamond of discipline stars it says, "Social Work". Well, that is a Discipline Senior of social work who, under this proposition, reports through to a Service Manager.

PN637

We have never said that a senior nurse, not the PD senior nurse should not report to a senior manager. We have never said that. Never. We have been wanting to talk to the employer about that. That was put emphatically to Ms Batten yesterday and I am absolutely gobsmacked of the submissions put to you just before, that this is what the union says that they want. How would they know, they have never spoken to us.

PN638

I have got a - I have got a comment on a couple of these observations. The VHIA was here on the occasion when you issued your directions, Commissioner and they were also here on the occasion before, where the HSUA alerted the Commission to a number of concerns that we had about employers implementing the agreement properly. They were put on notice, but nevertheless they were here and represented by their - by their advocate and I might add, Mr Commissioner, that the VHIA through Mr Djoneff did respond quite factually. It wasn't as if he was caught short - short.

PN639

Discussion that I had with Mr Britton outside the Commission on the last occasion, if that is to be constituted as a discussion I will somewhat eat my hat. I will probably be accused of the discussion I had before with them in relation to my night out at Moonee Valley last night as being discussions that I have had with him. Didn't win. Lost. I cannot throw anything your way.

PN640

There has been but one meeting with Ms Batten, that was around 14 November, that was with Alec and Len and nothing came of that. I had a cup of tea with Mr Britton and beyond that there was discussion I had yesterday with Ms Batten, but that only came about, Commissioner, as a result of accidentally running into Mr Stan Capp who is the CEO in front of their Health Department, yesterday.

PN641

We have had no opportunity to discuss with them. With respect to that CAMHS Manager, now I have just got to go back to their proposals about this CAMHS Manager, and a I have said the concerns are outlined in HSUA11 to 12. What they are talking about is not a reporting relationship, Commissioner. They are talking about a reporting relationship with only 25 per cent of the workforce. That is the child and adolescent programme.

PN642

Seventy five per cent of the workforce which is the adult, don't. They don't have a reporting relationship. It is only the CAMHS people and god bless them, good on them, but 75 per cent of the workforce don't have a reporting relationship at all under the model that is being proposed. What they say is, you - you raise your nursing issue with a - anybody, with the Service Manager, who could be from anywhere. They will then confer with the Service Manager at CAMHS, who under this proposition continues to be a nurse - continues to be a nurse.

PN643

They then confer back to the Service Manager and adult, who then confer down to the nurse on a nursing issue. Commissioner, if - if that was a doctor, if that was medicine, for example, it would be unbelievable. It was be unbelievable. It is an a functional proposition that has been put and arising out of my meeting with those senior nurses and again, Commissioner, these are the ones that have to deal with and implement this and work within their fields to be happening, they said it would not work because - - -

PN644

THE COMMISSIONER: But the - sorry, the footnotes down the bottom indicate that on professional matters senior nurses will report to the Chief Nursing Officer. On operational matters they will report to the Service Manager.

PN645

MR STEPHENS: That is - that is the Professional Development Nurse, Commissioner. That is not - we shouldn't confuse ourselves with that position.

PN646

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN647

MR STEPHENS: That is the senior nurse - that is the professional development senior.

PN648

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN649

MR STEPHENS: And if it reports to the Service Manager, it reports to the Service Manager - as I said before we don't have a fundamental problem about you know, an operational manager, but it should not come at the expense of nursing and it should not come at the expense of the funding for nursing. The position that we are talking about here is a nursing position. Indeed, so is the position below it. The one at level 5 which is the one - Assistant Director of Nursing, which I say we only found out about on last Friday night that they were being abolished.

PN650

This matter, unless it is able to be resolved this afternoon, should be - should I guess be put - set down for arbitration with programming done. It is a longstanding tradition of this Commission, established by many members of this Commission including Full Benches of this Commission that in dealing with a disputed matter by way of arbitration that the context matter or the subject matter of dispute remains preserved.

PN651

If the Commission were to grant the request to allow them to implement their - their structure, that is the subject matter of the dispute, then the dispute is gone and it is a waste of time to deal with anything by way of arbitration because they will have implemented it and then there is nothing to - nothing to arbitrate and it is of significant concern, Commissioner, that the language used by Mr Douglas is that the existing psych Director of Nursing he says, has been abolished. I understood, Commissioner, that your direction was that not to move to implement it. You said it has been abolished.

PN652

They should not be rewarded for that type of conduct. They have abolished the position, he said. You issued a recommendation - sorry, a direction, that was abundantly clear to everybody in the room that there will be no implementation of the structure. Part of the implementation of the structure involved the abolition of that position.

[2.24pm]

PN653

They should not be rewarded and nor, Commissioner, can I say that is there anything to suggest that they have satisfied anybody that the funds that they are getting from the Professional Development package which they previously did not have a position performing, now they do, then they don't, and again they do after they get the funding. There is nothing to convince anybody that that funding is going to where it ought to be. And as I said before, at a very minimum there is absolutely no dispute between the parties that they are using the current nursing money to create administrative positions. And again that is no net increase, no net increase. If the Commission pleases.

PN654

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

PN655

MR DOUGLAS: Commissioner, there is one issue that was quite a response to a response, but there is one, the last point being a further suggestion, but it is not the first time the suggestion has been put to the Commission that Southern Health has misled you in this matter. The fact of the matter is - and I am disappointed Mr Stephens does not know this from talking to his - to the people out there - the proposal or the proposed structure has not been implemented. I repeat, has not been implemented, because to do so would be contrary to your direction.

PN656

The position of program director of nursing continues to exist. There is an occupant. The occupant is Ms Wilkinson who is acting in that position as we speak. To suggest that we have in any way contravened the direction given by the Commission is an outrage and we reject that in its entirety. If the Commission pleases.

PN657

MR STEPHENS: Well, the transcript will reveal it, Commissioner.

PN658

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Could I have Mr Stephens and Mr Douglas out the back, please.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [2.27pm]

RESUMED [2.53pm]

PN659

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. The issue currently before the Commission is whether or not the proposal in terms of implementing a new senior management structure putting in place two service manager positions, one dealing with CAMHS and the other one dealing with SHAMHS - terrible titles - whether that is in contravention of recommendation 127 issued on 29 September 2000. There are issues that go to the reporting structure within the various disciplines. The Commission's understanding is that Southern have indicated that those reporting structures are subject to further development and, if necessary, negotiation and ultimately may end up back before this Commission.

PN660

However, as it the Commission understands it, the argument is that the executive structure should be put in place in order for the positions below to be developed. Recommendation 127 says:

PN661

There is to be a dedicated full time senior psychiatric nurse position within each AMHS at a level to be agreed. Where agreement cannot be reached between the parties, the matter shall be determined by the Commission under the section 111AA process. Dedicated full time shall be defined as someone whose clinical duties make up 75 per cent or more of their duties.

PN662

The argument currently before the Commission is that the current structure does not meet that criteria in terms of clinical duties that make up 75 per cent more of their duties. Under the CAMHS structure, it is proposed that the service manager shall be a nurse that is registered with the appropriate qualifications. In terms of the argument that gave rise to the directions that were issued on 12 November 2001, those directions in part stated:

PN663

In regards to the particular issue at Southern Health, the Commission hears what the VHIA says, but to put it beyond any doubt, the Commission now directs that Southern Health not act upon or take any further steps in order to implement the mental health program structure identified in the document dated 3 October 2001 from Robin Batten until such time as the Commission deems it necessary to lift such a direction.

PN664

The argument from the HSUA, as the Commission understands it, is that the positions that are being proposed are not net additions and in fact funding has been taken from one position to simply fund another. Is that right?

PN665

MR STEPHENS: Yes, that is it, Commissioner.

PN666

THE COMMISSIONER: A document addressed to Mr Ross Longhurst of the Australian Nursing Federation dated 19 November 2001, which is Southern 2, sets out in detail the nursing professional development funding. After hearing the parties this afternoon, and the Commission has had a number of hearings on this matter and discussions and there has been a large amount of correspondence directed to the Commission's attention between the parties, the Commission is prepared to lift the directions that were issued on 12 November 2001.

PN667

Therefore, Southern Health shall implement the proposed structure in terms of the executive structure identified as HSUA7, and there are two HSUA7s, one is the old structure, one is headed the New Structure. The Commission would expect that issues that go to the development of the structure below the executive structure will be subject to intense negotiations and consultation and the Commission would assume at some point, given the debate that has occurred so far, that those issues will come back to the Commission in due course. The Commission stands adjourned.

PN668

MR STEPHENS: Just one point of clarification.

PN669

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Stephens.

PN670

MR STEPHENS: I apologise for that. You talked about positions under the structure, does that include the existing nursing director - director of nursing position which will be subject to some discussion? And the assistant director of nursing position as well?

PN671

THE COMMISSIONER: My understanding is the director of nursing position has or is being abolished. Is that right?

PN672

MR STEPHENS: Proposed to be.

PN673

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, proposed to be abolished, and you made the point that the assistant director of nursing position is to be abolished as far as you are advised.

PN674

MR STEPHENS: Yes.

PN675

THE COMMISSIONER: Is that correct?

PN676

MR STEPHENS: That is what I have been advised.

PN677

THE COMMISSIONER: I just can't recall what the position was from Southern on that.

PN678

MR DOUGLAS: Commissioner, I am instructed that the position to be abolished or the position that would be in the senior management structure is the program director of nursing.

PN679

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN680

MR DOUGLAS: This other position of the assistant director of nursing is a grade 5 position would be below the senior management structure.

PN681

THE COMMISSIONER: Right.

PN682

MR DOUGLAS: So that seems - that will be subject to the further discussions with - - -

PN683

THE COMMISSIONER: Between the parties.

PN684

MR DOUGLAS: Yes. Yes.

PN685

THE COMMISSIONER: Does that answer your question.

PN686

MR STEPHENS: I am still unclear, sorry, about the director of nursing position which - is that subject to discussion, that role that - I am sorry, I am a bit unclear.

PN687

THE COMMISSIONER: No, the position as put by Mr Douglas is that - no, because that position, I suppose to some degree, is subsumed by the - your new executive structure.

PN688

MR DOUGLAS: That is correct, Commissioner. The position of program director of nursing will be abolished.

PN689

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN690

MR DOUGLAS: Yes, that is so.

PN691

MR STEPHENS: And the Commission supports that. I just really needed to make that really clear. I have a meeting of the troops in about half an hour.

PN692

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, whether the Commission supports it or not, the Commission has made its - it does not support any particular structure. It just says the direction that was issued is now lifted - - -

PN693

MR STEPHENS: Yes.

PN694

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - because it does not see that what is proposed is in contravention of its recommendation 127.

PN695

MR STEPHENS: I only asked the question because I have got a meeting of the relevant people and affected person in half an hour and I know they are going to be asking me to be really precise about it, and I am just trying to do just that.

PN696

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I think - I don't think Southern can be any more clearer. A, the position of director of nursing is to be abolished, and the position of assistant director of nursing is a level 5 and falls below the new executive structure anyway. Is that right?

PN697

MR DOUGLAS: Be subject of the discussion to which you have indicated.

PN698

THE COMMISSIONER: And be subject to discussion.

PN699

MR STEPHENS: I think I am clear on that now.

PN700

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Okay.

PN701

MR STEPHENS: Yes, thank you, Commissioner.

PN702

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. The Commission stands adjourned.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [3.03pm]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #SOUTHERN2 LETTER DATED 19/11/2001 TO MR LONGHURST PN473
EXHIBIT #SOUTHERN3 LETTER DATED 04/12/2001 TO MR STEPHENS PN473
EXHIBIT #HSUA9 CORRESPONDENCE DATED 21 NOVEMBER PN495
EXHIBIT #HSUA10 CORRESPONDENCE TO TIM LEE PN499
EXHIBIT #HSUA11 DOCUMENT PN503
EXHIBIT #HSUA12 LETTER DATED 11 DECEMBER PN506