C2002/1015, Transcript of Proceedings [2002] AIRCTrans 726 (6 March 2002)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N 2644

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

DEPUTY PRESIDENT IVES

C2002/1015

AUSTRALIAN MUNICIPAL, ADMINISTRATIVE,
CLERICAL AND SERVICES UNION

and

MAYNE LOGISTICS ARMAGUARD

Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of a dispute re part-time and casual work and
redundancy issues

MELBOURNE

2.02 PM, WEDNESDAY, 20 FEBRUARY 2002

PN1

MR D. LEYDON: I appear for the Australian Union Services in this matter and with me I have MS F. PARKER, who is our shop steward from the Armaguard Altona branch.

PN2

MR R. IRONMONGER: I appear with MR R. BOECK and out of the courtroom is MR PASTORI and MR THORNYCROFT on behalf of Mayne Group Limited Trading As Armaguard.

PN3

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Leydon.

PN4

MR LEYDON: Thanks, your Honour. If I could just, briefly, give a bit of a run down on the dispute that was notified to the Commission today and then, perhaps with your indulgence at a later stage today, seek to go into conciliation discussions. Your Honour, the matter that we have notified today relates to, essentially, the conversation of casual workers to part time or permanent status within the Armaguard organisation. Just to give you a brief overview of the organisation itself, the industry itself has gone through a huge amount of change over the last 12 months.

PN5

Armaguard, particularly, suffered as a result of that change - resulting from bank tenders last year which Armaguard lost some of the work in to their main competitor, Chubb. As a result, there has been some branch rationalisation with Armaguard and in some areas loss of jobs, mainly from the casual area of work. In terms of those job losses last year, your Honour, around about September/October, the parties did negotiate a redundancy agreement for casual workers within the Armaguard organisation.

PN6

That agreement was finalised after a dispute. Commissioner Jones was involved in hearing matters in relation to that dispute. The parties did finalise a document, as I say, which was a redundancy agreement. It might be appropriate, sir, if I hand up a copy of that at this stage.

EXHIBIT #A1 REDUNDANCY AGREEMENT

PN7

MR IRONMONGER: I have no objection to that being tendered, but it was before Commissioner Jones on a confidential basis. I don't mind you, as constituted being the Commission, but for ..... Mr Leydon hands that document out to anyone - that was the basis that it be on a Commission's file, sealed. I just make that point.

PN8

MR LEYDON: Your Honour, I have no objection to that. It is a confidential document, we acknowledge that, and we aren't handing it out, willy-nilly, as the suggestion may be. So, yes, it is a confidential document, we acknowledge that. Sorry, your Honour, that was A1, was it?

PN9

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: A1, yes.

PN10

MR LEYDON: The document, sir, as you can see, is titled "The Agreement between the ASU and Mayne Logistics Armaguard". It is in relation to redundancy within the casual ranks at Armaguard branches. It was a national arrangement for Armaguard. However, there was an appendix, appendix 1, to that document which is the third page in the document, the last page in the document, and it is under the first heading, I suppose, I seek to draw your attention to and that is the conversation of casuals to permanent part-time work.

PN11

Through the dispute in relation to casuals and redundancy, Armaguard indicated their preference at some stage in the future for converting casual workers to part-time work. Now, the industry itself has been made up for many years, primarily of casual workers. It is fair to say they are permanent casuals. They essentially work pretty much the same shifts week in, week out, day in, day out. In some cases, it may be two days a week or three days a week and in other cases it is as many as five days a week.

PN12

So permanent casuals is probably the best way of describing them, your Honour. As I say, the company indicated its preference to start to move those casuals to a permanent part-time arrangement. The union and its members stated at the time that we weren't averse that particular thought but there needed to be a smooth transition and some guarantees given in some key areas if that move was to take place. I should say, your Honour, that a similar arrangement occurred some eight or nine months ago at the main competitor in the industry, which is Chubb, and we went through a similar process with them following that dispute to enable the conversion of casual workers to part time.

PN13

From the ASUs point of view, we learnt the lesson out of that particular process and thought that we could apply similar arrangements at Armaguard to enable a smoother transition. Some of the areas, your Honour, that we were particularly keen on looking at, and when I say "we", I'm talking about both parties, I mention there in those dot points, about halfway through, the conversion of casuals. They particularly relate to rostering, overtime, caps on the hours, shift work and penalties.

PN14

But some of the key issues that need to be noted out of this arrangement are that those particular issues would be the subject of examination and that that examination would occur between the parties and be finalised and agreed by November 30 of 2001. Unfortunately, Armaguard didn't seek to enter into that arrangement until some time in late January whereby they sought to implement casuals converting to part time without consultation. The union reminded Armaguard of this particular appendix and sought to enter into the discussions and the process that are involved in this particular appendix.

PN15

It may be appropriate, also, sir, if I note that it has the further wording in the second-last paragraph under "The conversion of casuals to permanent part time":

PN16

Upon agreement, the parties will submit a letter of understanding to be placed in the Commission.

PN17

And it goes on to say that:

PN18

Upon settlement of the impending EBA -

PN19

which is now being negotiated as we speak -

PN20

the above shall be written into the EBA to reflect the parties' agreement.

PN21

So we were looking for whatever arrangement we finalised to form part of the enterprise agreement. And I think the key words, though, are that we are going to examine these issues and agree on them. At this stage, your Honour, we don't have agreement and I suppose it is fair to say that there is a number of issues between the parties. Following the discussions we finally had in late January and early February, there is no agreement. Armaguard, we believe, haven't taken the matter seriously, hence our notification to the Commission to try and involve the third party to help us break the deadlock in relation to the areas of concern to the ASU.

PN22

It is worth further noting, your Honour, that we wrote to Armaguard on 14 February, which I think was the same day we notified the dispute to the Commission, seeking their undertaking that in accordance with the dispute settlement procedure contained in the relevant enterprise agreement, that at clause 8.9 of that particular dispute settlement procedure - I might hand that up, your Honour, to assist you.

PN23

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I won't mark that because it forms part of the agreement.

PN24

MR LEYDON: 8.9 of that dispute settlement procedure, your Honour, and particularly the wording where it says:

PN25

The circumstances which applied immediately prior to the dispute arising shall, as far as practically possible, apply until further resolution of the matter.

PN26

The ASU wrote to the company on 14 February seeking assurances from the company that it would apply that particular sentiment in clause 8.9. Again, sir, I don't wish to bombard you with paperwork but it is relevant to where I am getting with this. So perhaps if I can hand up a copy of both the ASUs letter to Armaguard and Armaguard's reply to that letter.

EXHIBIT #A2 ASU LETTER TO ARMAGUARD

EXHIBIT #A3 ARMAGUARD'S REPLY TO ASU LETTER

PN27

MR LEYDON: Your Honour, in A2, which is the ASUs letter dated 14 February, we seek assurances, as mentioned, from Armaguard that:

PN28

The status quo will remain until such time as this matter has been resolved through the Commission as per the disputes settlement procedure.

PN29

You will see, then, in A3 as you have marked it, sir, that Armaguard's response the following day, 4.25 on Friday night, was to say that they refer to our letter of 14 February and:

PN30

...advise that I do not recognise any dispute exists in respect of our industrial agreements. As I have advised you on several occasions, we plan to appoint people to permanent part-time positions in accordance with provisions of our existing agreements.

PN31

It goes on to say in the last paragraph, sir, that:

PN32

By way of courtesy, I advise that we intend commencing the selection process following the close of expressions of interest today.

PN33

Sir, that is of extreme concern to the ASU, given that we do have a dispute settlement procedure within the agreement and we simply ask the company to follow that to the nth degree to ensure that we can resolve this matter with a minimum of fuss, hopefully. I must say, sir, there was further letter or email from the company on the Monday which sought to clear that particular position up but didn't in any way suggest that the company would pull back from continuing the process of appointing people to permanent roles within the organisation.

PN34

In summing up, sir, it is fair to say there are five key areas that the ASU seeks to try and resolve in this matter, without prejudice. Those areas particularly relate to issues in relation to minimum hours of engagement for people that are converting from casual to part-time work; options for employees who don't convert from casual to part-time work. I should say, your Honour, that a number of these employees that we are talking about within the casual ranks at Armaguard have 10, 15, 20-plus years of service. So we are not talking about two minute casuals or fly by nighters.

PN35

The third issue that we would seek to try and reach agreement on are penalty rates because the relevant hours that the company has suggested the part timers will be working are, I suppose, what we would naturally deem unfriendly hours. Most of the people we are talking about on current casual hours are working day time hours. There are some into the afternoon and early evening. The company in some areas has suggested some of these people will be working through until 11 pm at night, which we see as somewhat unfriendly, given the history of the employees within the organisation and the hours they have worked in the past.

PN36

So it is penalty rates and unfriendly hours are issues three and four, as far we are concerned. And the final issue that we seek to have resolved in some way is an understanding on how all of these changes will be applied to the enterprise bargaining process. Without wishing to put too fine a point on it, your Honour, this is a substantial change to the work practices within the organisation and we see those changes as being perhaps something that needs to be offset against wage increases or other relevant issues in the enterprise bargaining process, as it was with the competitor in the industry, Chubb, and as it would naturally be under the enterprise bargaining process.

PN37

So they are the key areas as far as the ASU is concerned. As I say, your Honour, we are keen to try and resolve those particular issues before we can move forward in this process. And it was those particular issues that we thought were part of that process at appendix 1 of the redundancy agreement. We thought we were going to be wrapped up in discussions about those. However, now we find the company is going to impose the alteration of casual status of employees to permanent part time without further discussion.

PN38

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Leydon, what do you understand the specifics to be in terms of what you say the company is going to impose?

PN39

MR LEYDON: There are a number - thank you for the question, your Honour. There are a number, as I understand it, of different proposals. If I could highlight the Ringwood branch, for example. The Ringwood branch propose in some areas to move current casual employees to permanent part-time status. They are, in some cases, on a 3 pm to 11 pm shift as opposed to the standard day hours or normal work hours that they previously worked.

PN40

In other areas, such as the largest branch at Altona, there has been a little of a history of part-time work there or permanent work there, more so than at any other branch, although the suggestion is the same, again, that most of those hours will be in the later part of the day. We understand there is a reason for that and that is that the Reserve Bank has asked for final facts and figures to be in by 4 am the following morning, so we understand the emphasis on the end of the day procedure.

PN41

But we are mindful of the fact that there are also some functions that can be done during the normal work hours or normal day hours, if I can put it that way, that may benefit some of our members, particularly those with family considerations. And there is also, you know, a range of other issues that need to be taken into account, like the fact that some people simply cannot work at 11 pm at night. Some people travel, you know, well over an hour or more to get to the branch in the first place and it is probably more than unreasonable to ask them to travel that hour home at 11 pm or if the work happens to run over to maybe midnight, maybe 1 am in the morning.

PN42

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And what do you understand the options to be for those people that can't do that?

PN43

MR LEYDON: The options at the moment, according to the company, are none and that is that they would either convert

PN44

to part time or remain casual. If they remain casual the part timers will then, effectively, gobble up the hours that are on offer within any particular branch and the casuals will have moved from a position where they had, you know, maybe 20, 25, 26 hours a week, in some cases more, to virtually being casuals on call where they might get 6 hours one week, no hours the next, won't get a call from the company for three weeks at a time.

PN45

And that is a particular problem, remembering, again, that some of these people have 20-plus years service within the organisation. What we would seek to do, by way of choice, is give those people the option of the redundancy arrangements that exist under the current packages I handed up to you, and I think it was A1, sir. That provides a clear path forward for those that don't wish to convert to hours, as I say, in some cases that they see as being unfriendly.

PN46

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So this redundancy agreement that you have handed up has not been enacted in any way?

PN47

MR LEYDON: It has, yes, it has in some areas, sir. It was finalised in last October, October 2001. It was used within the branches that were affected by the change within the industry where Armaguard did lose some work to competitors. It is an interesting scenario, though, now where some of the work has gone but they also seem to be appointing new employees in some areas. We are at a loss to understand how that works. A few months ago they are putting people off, now they are putting people on. But that is another story.

PN48

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I seem to get enough stories - - -

PN49

MR LEYDON: We have - yes, it is fairly messy, your Honour. I certainly acknowledge that. But it is part of a long and ongoing history with the industry itself and we are seeking to try and fix things now. I should just point out one further thing in closing. The other thing that we have some concerns about is that we need to be mindful of the fact that that particular redundancy agreement, A1 in other words, has a life that expires on 1 March. So we are mindful of the fact that if one of the options for casuals under this arrangement is to be a choice of redundancy that we need to move forward sooner rather than later on that particular issue.

PN50

Unless the company, of course, is willing to extend that particular deadline. If the Commission pleases.

PN51

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay, thanks, Mr Leydon. Mr Ironmonger.

PN52

MR IRONMONGER: We say that there is no dispute. We say there has been a lot of consultation amongst our workforce. The work is covered by the enterprise agreement and also by the Clerical Administrative Employees Award. The nub of the agreement which Mr Leydon relied upon in A1 was the conversion to permanent part time. What the company - the main objective of the company was seeking there was to take away the overtime provisions of - for permanent part time. The award stipulations:

PN53

If you work more than the agreed hours it will become overtime.

PN54

And the company was seeking to get a 38 hour span before overtime came into place. Now, the ASU weren't forthcoming upon that. We have had extensive consultation and notification to the employees a requirement to convert back to permanent part time. There is a requirement from the Reserve Bank that the figures must be in by 4 o'clock. If the figures aren't in that money cannot be invested with the short-term money market.

PN55

The award does provide for permanent part time, that is the parts we are relying upon. The enterprise is to be read in conjunction with the award. We say we are just complying with the award. We have given people plenty of notice. We have now got the situation where we have sufficient volunteers to convert from casual to permanent part time. Now, this has happened at the Altona branch some months ago in accordance with the enterprise agreement and the ASU didn't object then. It went through smoothly. All we are doing is converting the Ringwood branch into the current arrangements that the company requires. So that is an overview of how we see it.

PN56

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, it seems to me, Mr Ironmonger, that you heard what Mr Leydon said when we was on his feet, unless you are prepared to concede the things that he has suggested he requires that you have got a dispute. I mean, I don't know that I would agree with you that you have no dispute.

PN57

MR IRONMONGER: Well, could I say, the settlement disputes procedure:

PN58

The matter shall be first discussed between the relevant employee and the supervisor.

PN59

There has been no discussion between a relevant employee and the supervisor. All the ASU have come in and said, "Hang on, you can't do this. We're in dispute". Now, we have got expressions of interest from the people who are working at Ringwood who are currently casual and people have put expressions of interest to either become full time or permanent part time. Now, I note the delegate here is from Altona not from Ringwood, so I am not sure what relevance that is to the ASU but we believe we have got the sufficient numbers to put the award into practice at Ringwood.

PN60

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So what is it that you are suggesting should occur, Mr Ironmonger, that you - - -

PN61

MR IRONMONGER: We will go into conference, your Honour, but we don't see that that - what role the Commission can do. We are following our enterprise agreement and we are following the award and the award is to be read in conjunction with the enterprise agreement. Now, I do understand that my friend did take - took Chubb to the Federal Court and they weren't successful there. They were trying to argue in the Federal Court that we were discriminating people by converting them from casual to full time, which we say was a nonsense.

PN62

I think the court, although it didn't finally rule upon it, didn't take the matter too far. We are happy to go into conference, your Honour, but, you know, we don't see there is much a dispute at all, rather than the ASU not liking us running the business the way we have to run it.

PN63

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. I am of a mind to go into conference in this matter. Anyway but - - -

PN64

MR LEYDON: Your Honour - sorry.

PN65

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Sorry, Mr Leydon, just before you - did you - was that the end?

PN66

MR IRONMONGER: That's it, yes.

PN67

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay, thanks, Mr Ironmonger. Yes, Mr Leydon.

PN68

MR LEYDON: Thanks, your Honour. Just by way of very brief response. Yes, we are aware that a number of people have expressed an interest at the Ringwood branch, the branch in question at the moment. But in most cases, as I understand it, and straight from the horse's mouth, in other words from the members themselves, they have done so under duress. They believe that - statements have been made that if they don't do the work or if they don't put their hand up to do the work the organisation will bring in people that will do the work as part-time employees.

PN69

And if there was any doubt about that, the organisation has, as I understand it, advertised in the local press for workers to come into that particular branch. So as I say, the people are fearful of their jobs and have expressed an interest accordingly. That doesn't mean that these particular issues that we say that are the key issues as far as the ASU members are concerned are irrelevant. They are the very issues that the members at the Ringwood branch have told us they want resolved before they can move forward.

PN70

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Thanks, Mr Leydon. Just before I do go off the record, if I can just turn to the appendix 1 in A1 for a moment. Mr Ironmonger, what do you say to me about that particular appendix in terms of what appears, at least on the face of it, to be an agreement by the parties to go forward and have some discussions in respect of these issues?

PN71

MR IRONMONGER: We say we have had discussions and the nub of the ..... we want no restrictions on the 38 hours and the union weren't forthcoming on that so - - -

PN72

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So you have had some discussions. You have not been able to resolve any of those items to the mutual satisfaction of the parties and you have determined on that basis to essentially make a unilateral call to do what you think is the appropriate thing to do; is that correct?

PN73

MR IRONMONGER: Yes. That's our right under the award to proceed.

PN74

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am not getting into what rights exist but I am simply looking at this appendix which seems to me to say that the parties will have some discussions with the aim of resolving some issues. Now, what you appear to be saying to me is that those discussions have taken place. They resulted in no agreement on any of those issues and on the basis that there was no agreement the company has determined what it will do and has gone forward on that basis.

PN75

MR IRONMONGER: Yes, that is fair comment, yes.

PN76

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN77

MR IRONMONGER: We say we have converted people at the Altona branch, because the enterprise agreement four or five branches. A couple have closed down. People have converted from casual to part time, permanent part time, full time. So all of a sudden now at Ringwood it is all of a sudden a major problem.

PN78

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The other thing that I wanted to make note of, again we are on the record, I note in the certified agreement and I recognise that these things often end up in agreements and, unfortunately, don't tend to mean much at the end of the day to the parties, but parties to agreement tend to keep putting them there. It talks about the objectives of the agreement being to maintain culture of trust and consultation and cooperation and goes on with a range of circumstances pertaining to participation and consultation within the workforce.

PN79

I just sort of bring the parties' attention to that because if people don't want that in agreements there is no obligation to put it there. If you do want it in agreements, on reading those agreements, if it is a third party reading of those agreements, could be forgiven for thinking, well, you wanted it there, you must intend to do something about if. If you don't intend to do something about it then don't have it there in the first place because it seems to me that it just becomes useful verbiage.

PN80

MR IRONMONGER: Well, your Honour, could I just make this point here - - -

PN81

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So as I say, I merely bring that up to draw the parties' attention to it because it is something obviously that was a point of discussion at some point in time between the parties. Now, I understand, Mr Ironmonger, and you may be about to say it, that in your view there has been consultation and participation at the various sites. For one reason or another, that obviously hasn't permeated up through the ranks of the union, judging by the submissions of Mr Leydon, and perhaps we can come to some resolution of that particular issue in private conference. Sorry, I interrupted you.

PN82

MR IRONMONGER: That's all right. I was just going to say, look, the ASU put out what they call and "S" sheet. Now, it virtually starts off saying, "The ASU is forced - they are going to take the rampant Armaguard management off to the Australian Industrial Relations Commission." You know, this sort of nonsense comes out. So but .....

PN83

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Well, look - - -

PN84

MR LEYDON: Sorry, your Honour. Just in relation to the particular issue that you raised at appendix 1. It is fair to point out that the second-last paragraph of the conversion of casuals to permanent part time section states specifically that:

PN85

Upon agreement, the parties submit a letter of understanding.

PN86

In other words, it was viewed that we wouldn't be proceeding until agreement had been reached and that that would also form part of the settlement of the EBA that is currently up for renegotiation, as we speak. You are absolutely correct in terms of some of the sentiments conveyed in clause 5 of the EBA itself, particularly in relation to the culture of trust, because I am sure I speak very strongly on behalf of the members in saying that the trust level between the parties at the moment is virtually zilch on the basis that the appendix 1 and I suppose, more broadly, the document that it is contained in, the agreement in relation to redundancy, was entered into in good faith with the Armaguard organisation.

PN87

And from where we sit they seem to be walking away from it yet again which is why we referred to them as a rampant management because they have had a track history of doing that in relation to most of the things they have signed as agreements in recent times. If the Commission pleases.

PN88

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks, Mr Leydon. Well, I think we have had enough opportunity for people to put their particular points of view on the record, so I might, on that basis, adjourn these proceedings until 2.45 at which time we will reconvene in here in conference.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [2.31pm]

RESUMED [3.54pm]

PN89

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There have been some substantial discussions, I think, in private conference and it has been agreed that we will go forward with this matter on the following basis. In the ensuing seven-day period from today's date there will be discussions between the company and the union. The substance of those discussions will be the matters raised in appendix 1 of exhibit A1 and will include the flexing of permanent part-time hours between the minimum hours and the award hours of standard hours of 38, but will also include all of the other matters which have been mentioned in that appendix 1.

PN90

Now, on the basis that those discussions go forward and there is agreement, then, obviously, the parties will move forward on the basis of that agreement. To the extent that those discussions take place and there is not agreement on any of those issues, then the parties may refer the matter back to this Commission for further hearing and for, if appropriate, a determination on this Commission - - -

PN91

MR IRONMONGER: On that point, your Honour, I just want to raise, if I can, is it possible that you could give us the dates now so we can get our minds focussed, rather than having to come back and you have a busy schedule and it is difficult to get on.

PN92

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Certainly. All right. So seven days from today's date will take us through to - today's Wednesday, isn't it? - Wednesday of next week. I am loath to list immediately because, I mean, it is sort of pre-empting an outcome that I really don't want. But so what I would prefer to do would to be to have the parties notify me at the conclusion of those seven days and I will list the matter as expediently as I am able to do it.

PN93

MR IRONMONGER: Okay, that's fine, your Honour.

PN94

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So the discussions will take place within the ensuing seven days and I undertake at the completion of that, should there be no agreement, to expediently list the matter for further hearing, and as I say, if appropriate, determination. On the basis that that process occurs, there will be a hold put on by the company on the movement of current casual employees to permanent part-time position. However, where the company has full-time positions, my understanding at the moment is that there are 10 full-time positions on afternoon shift and four full-time positions on day shift, then the company will continue with its recruitment process and, to the extent that it is able to, effectively fill those positions which will limit those issues to the extent that they are in dispute to issues revolving around movement of casuals to permanent part-time positions.

PN95

Yes, Mr Leydon.

PN96

MR LEYDON: Sorry, your Honour. If I could just ask a question of clarification. The appointments of the full-time employees, is it the company's view that they will come from the ranks of the current employees?

PN97

MR IRONMONGER: That is my understanding, your Honour.

PN98

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That was certainly my understanding, given the discussion we had in private conference in terms of the number of applications.

PN99

MR BOECK: To clarify that, the vast majority of the people will be coming from our current ranks, yes, however we - the vast majority will come from our current ranks, however, the numbers as they sit at the minute would tend to indicate that we may well be recruiting a couple of people from outside the organisation to fill the entire quota.

PN100

MR LEYDON: That is acceptable, your Honour.

PN101

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. So to the extent that you are able to fill those positions from your current ranks, you will do so - - -

PN102

MR BOECK: Yes.

PN103

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: - - - to the extent that you can't then you will recruit externally.

PN104

MR BOECK: Correct.

PN105

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, thank you. I think I have got the summary of the circumstances as much as is necessary for the point of view of the record, unless either of the parties can think of something that I have missed. All right. On that basis and with, again, the added admonition to the parties, that they go forward on this on the basis that, hopefully, they can get resolution themselves, then I will adjourn these proceedings.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [3.59pm]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #A1 REDUNDANCY AGREEMENT PN7
EXHIBIT #A2 ASU LETTER TO ARMAGUARD PN27
EXHIBIT #A3 ARMAGUARD'S REPLY TO ASU LETTER PN27