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Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114J MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
DX 305 Melbourne Tel:(03) 9672-5608 Fax:(03) 9670-8883
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N VT10264
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT LACY
AG2001/3630
C2001/1368
APPLICATION FOR CERTIFICATION
OF AGREEMENT
Application under section 170LK of the Act by
CPSU, The Community and Public Sector Union and
Another for certification of the Fulham
Correctional Officers Certified Agreement 2001
AUSTRALASIAN CORRECTIONAL
MANAGEMENT PTY LIMITED
and
CPSU, THE COMMUNITY AND PUBLIC SECTOR
UNION - SPSF GROUP, VICTORIAN BRANCH
Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act
of an industrial dispute re negotiation of a new
agreement for the Fulham Correctional Centre
MELBOURNE
10.05 AM, THURSDAY, 13 MARCH 2003
Continued from 12.3.03
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Good morning. Yes, Mr Myers, would you return to the witness box, please.
PN8803
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will just remind you, Mr Myers, you are still on oath?---Yes.
PN8804
MR LAWRENCE: Mr Myers, I want to begin by just traversing a little history of the Victorian Corrections system with you. Now, historically, the Victorian Government owned and operated all prisons in Victoria, that is correct?---That is correct.
PN8805
And until 1992 the Office of Corrections, as it then was, was responsible for policy and planning of the adult corrections system?---That is my understanding, yes.
PN8806
And indeed the delivery of all prison and community correctional services?---Yes.
PN8807
Now, in 1992 the Office of Corrections was abolished, are you aware of that?---Yes, yes.
PN8808
And reconstituted as the Corrective Services Division of the Department of Justice?---That is correct.
PN8809
Now, initially, the Corrective Services Division retained all of the functions of the previous Office of Corrections, are you aware of that?---Yes.
PN8810
And that included policy planning and delivery and so forth?---Yes.
PN8811
All right. And then from 1994 it is fair to say, isn't it, that there were a number of fundamental changes that were instituted in relation to the Victorian Corrections system, from 1994 on?---Yes, there was, yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN8812
And these principal changes can be identified as the following. In 1995 the Office of the Correctional Services Commissioner, or OCSC, was established?---Yes.
PN8813
And that office commenced operation within the Department of Justice, didn't it?---Yes, it did, yes.
PN8814
And legislation was passed by the Victorian Parliament that allowed the Minister for Corrections to enter into contracts for the financing, construction and operation of privately owned prisons. That is correct, isn't it?---That is correct.
PN8815
And a Commissioner for Correctional Services was appointed?---That is correct.
PN8816
And in 1996, CORE, the Public Correctional Enterprise, was established separately within the Department of Justice?---That is correct.
PN8817
And the Metropolitan Women's Correctional Centre, in 1996, opened under the management of Corrections Corporation of Australia?---That is correct.
PN8818
And this prison has since reverted to public management, hasn't it?---It has.
PN8819
Yes. And indeed in April 1997 Fulham opened under the management of Australasian Correctional Management?---That is correct.
PN8820
And in about September 1997 the Port Phillip prison opened under the management of Group 4 Correction Services?---That is correct.
PN8821
And in 1997 there were 10 prisons under the management and control of CORE, that is correct?---Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN8822
Now there are 11 with the reversion of the Metropolitan Women's Correctional Centre to public management?---Yes.
PN8823
Yes. And it is fair to say, isn't it, Mr Myers, that these reforms resulted in a competitive purchaser provider relationship between the Victorian Government and the private operators, being initially three, now two?---That is correct.
PN8824
And CORE?---That is correct.
PN8825
And the principal parts of the correctional services system that prevails in Victoria in the moment, if I can identify them, are, firstly, the Minister for Corrections as the purchaser of corrections services?---Yes.
PN8826
Yes. The corrections services providers, being CORE, correct?---Yes.
PN8827
ACM in respect - - -?---Yes, that is correct.
PN8828
- - - of Fulham? And Group 4 in respect of Port Phillip?---That is correct.
PN8829
Within the current system the Department of Justice has the overall responsibility for the operation of the Victorian correction system?---Overall, yes.
PN8830
Yes. And as such it sets the policy and standards to apply across the system?---It does and I guess my understanding would be that that is where there is a basic difference in the reporting structure for the two private operators and the public system.
PN8831
Yes, but in terms of the application of policy and standards it sets the standards to apply across the system?---Yes, it does.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN8832
Yes. And indeed it monitors the performance of the respective service providers?---Yes - well, the Commissioner's office monitors the performance.
PN8833
Yes, which is based as we have seen within the Department of Justice?---Yes.
PN8834
Yes. And within the Department of Justice the Office of the Correctional Services Commissioner is the organisational unit that assists the Correctional Services Commissioner to oversee the system and provide system-wide leadership. Fair statement?---I think it is a statement of what is about to happen in the system, not what has been happening in the system. There is a change coming now which brings all the providers under the Commissioner's office. In the past the Commissioner has been the conduit that the privates used to go to the Minister, whereas public corrections goes straight through the Deputy Secretary, the Department of Justice, then to the Minister. So there has been a subtle difference in the reporting lines between the two private providers and the public - the public sector.
PN8835
Yes. And there has been some complaints made about the difference in those reporting lines?---Well, it hasn't allowed, I think, the consistency that has been required or necessary to operate the system.
PN8836
Yes. And that is being revised?---Yes, it has been revised, yes.
PN8837
Yes. And the principal functions of the OCSC include the fact that it strategically plans and develops the Victorian corrections system?---Yes, it does.
PN8838
And it develops and sets state-wide policy and standards?---Yes, it does.
PN8839
And it independently monitors the quality and consistency of delivery of correctional services by both public and private providers?---It monitors the performance.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN8840
Of both public and private providers?---Yes.
PN8841
Yes?---Yes.
PN8842
And the OCSC advises the Minister about each provider's performance and level of compliance with contractual obligations?---Yes, we do - yes, they do.
PN8843
And the office is also responsible for other key state-wide functions, isn't it, such as management of prisoner sentences?---That is correct, yes. Through sentence management, yes.
PN8844
And that includes prisoner assessment?---Yes.
PN8845
Classification?---That is right.
PN8846
Placement?---That is correct.
PN8847
And sentence calculation?---Yes.
PN8848
Yes. Now, Fulham and Port Phillip prisons, Mr Myers, are managed under contracts known as prison services agreements, that is correct, isn't it?---That is correct.
PN8849
And indeed the Fulham Prison Services Agreement is exhibit CPSU15 in the proceedings, your Honour.
PN8850
And the existing prison services agreements defined as such are between the Victorian Government and ACM and Group 4 respectively?---That is correct.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN8851
And what the Commission has before it in CPSU15 is this document, Mr Myers, which is an edited public released version of the Fulham agreement, that is correct?---I - yes, it is an edited version, fairly generic as far as we are concerned in relation to specifics, but it is an edited version.
PN8852
Certain key financial details - - -?---That is right.
PN8853
- - - are not included?---That is correct.
PN8854
Now, it is true that there is no formal contract between CORE and the Secretary of the Department of Justice?---That is my understanding.
PN8855
But the arrangements relating to the provision of corrective services at the now 11 publicly managed prisons are formalised in two documents that were tabled yesterday, being the framework agreement - - -?---That is right.
PN8856
- - - which is between the Department of Justice and CORE?---That is correct.
PN8857
And the service agreement?---I am not aware of what is in that service agreement.
PN8858
But you are aware that there is a framework agreement and a service agreement?---I am aware of the framework agreement. I am not aware of the service agreement.
PN8859
And are you aware that the framework agreement establishes CORE as a service agency and sets out the roles and responsibilities of CORE as a provider of correctional services?---Yes, I am.
PN8860
You are not aware of the service agreement but I can tell you the service agreement sets out the service standards and outputs to be delivered by CORE. That wouldn't surprise you, would it?---Yes, I can understand that perfectly. Yes, I do.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN8861
Now, the agreements with CORE and ACM and Group 4 include a range of common standard requirements to be met by prison operators in the provision of correctional services. That is correct, isn't it?---Yes, that is correct. I think they are referred to as the prison management specifications.
PN8862
Yes. And indeed they are included in the Fulham agreement towards the rear of that document, aren't they?---That is right.
PN8863
Yes. And those standards include such things as the standard of facilities to be used to accommodate prisoners in areas such as design and construction?---That is right.
PN8864
Physical environment?---That is correct.
PN8865
Safety and security?---Yes.
PN8866
Facilities for conducting educational programs?---That is correct.
PN8867
That is in relation to facilities. And in the area of correctional services the standards and common requirements include such things as bedding?---That is right.
PN8868
Classification and placement of prisoners?---Yes.
PN8869
Clothes?---That is correct.
PN8870
Deaths in custody?---In what way?
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN8871
In terms of what is to be done in order to - - -?---The management of the incident, yes.
PN8872
- - - minimise or - manage or minimise?---Minimise, yes, exactly.
PN8873
Education?---That is right.
PN8874
Health services?---That is correct.
PN8875
Personal development and life skills programs?---That is correct.
PN8876
And prisoner management?---That is correct, yes.
PN8877
And these common standards are embodied in the correctional policy and management standards that have been developed by the Office of the Correctional Services Commissioner for both men's and women's prisons in Victoria?---That is correct.
PN8878
And in addition, included in each of the public sector and private sector agreements, are what are termed common service delivery outcomes?---That is true.
PN8879
Or SDOs?---That is right.
PN8880
Yes. And SDOs measure performance against a range of key correctional services. That is correct, isn't it?---That is correct.
PN8881
They establish specific quantitative targets against which the performance of each provider is measured?---That is correct.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN8882
And the major categories, if I can identify, of SDOs would include, in relation to prison operations, issues such as escapes?---Yes.
PN8883
Incidents of self-mutilation or attempted suicide?---That is correct.
PN8884
Assaults on prisoners, staff and others?---That is right.
PN8885
Prisoners who test positive to non-prescription drugs?---That is correct.
PN8886
And there are also outcomes in relation to education and training?---That is correct.
PN8887
Including enrolments in and completion of modules relating to adult basic education and vocational training?---That is correct.
PN8888
And outcomes related to prison industries?---That is correct.
PN8889
Including prisoners participation rates?---That is correct, yes.
PN8890
And outcomes relating to health?---That is correct, yes.
PN8891
Including medical screening on reception into the prison?---Yes.
PN8892
Psychiatric assessment?---That is right.
PN8893
Primary health care?---That is correct, yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN8894
And there are outcomes in relation to other programs, for example, participation in sex offender treatment programs?---As a generic - as a generic statement, Fulham does not have a sex offender program as such. It is one of those that exists in the system.
PN8895
Yes. Substance abuse awareness courses?---That is correct.
PN8896
Education and treatment?---That is correct.
PN8897
All right. Now, I want to move to the regulatory environment in respect of the Victorian corrections system, Mr Myers. Now, all correctional services providers in Victoria, and this includes ACM, Group 4 and CORE, are subject to the same general regulatory environment which includes the Corrections Act and Corrections Regulations?---That is correct, regarded by the legislation.
PN8898
And the Act and regulations provides the legislative basis for the provision of correctional services?---Yes, it does, yes.
PN8899
And I might take you to it. The Corrections Act is included within exhibit CPSU12, your Honour.
PN8900
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.
PN8901
MR LAWRENCE: And under the Act the Secretary of the Department of Justice is deemed to have custody of all prisoners in Victoria?---That is correct.
PN8902
And pursuant to section 20 of the Corrections Act, prison officers are subject to a statutory duty of care?---That is correct.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN8903
That is, subsection (2) of section 20 provides that:
PN8904
An officer in charge of prisoners must take all reasonable steps for the safe custody and welfare of the prisoners.
PN8905
?---That is correct, yes.
PN8906
Now, the other principal feature of the system, Mr Myers, is the Standard Guidelines for Corrections in Australia 1996?---Yes.
PN8907
Your Honour, I want to take Mr Myers to that document. It is included within CPSU12 and it appears behind the regulations, there is the Act and regulations. The Standard Guidelines for Corrections in Australia appears there. Your Honour, I have a copy for Mr Myers.
PN8908
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well.
PN8909
MR LAWRENCE: Now, Mr Myers, these standard guidelines constitute an agreed common standard that has been adopted by all Australian states and territories, don't they?---That is my understanding, yes.
PN8910
Yes. And you will see if you go to the table of contents that the standard guidelines cover a wide range of matters?---Yes.
PN8911
Standard Guidelines for Corrections including inspection and community involvement. Do you see that?---Yes.
PN8912
Section 4 deals with the Standard Guidelines for Community Based Corrections?---Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN8913
Section 5, Standard Guidelines for Prisoners which includes management and security of prisoners, prison officers' responsibilities, reception and so on?---Yes.
PN8914
Part 2 of that deals, again, with management of prisoners?---Yes.
PN8915
And if you go to page 1 you see there at paragraph 2 in the Preface, it states:
PN8916
The minimum Standard Guidelines for Australian Prisons was based on the United Nations Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners and related recommendations - - -
PN8917
?---Yes.
PN8918
- - - and the Council of Europe Standard Minimum Rules and modified to accommodate trends in correctional thinking in Australia during the 1970s.
PN8919
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN8920
Their purpose was to set standards for the conduct of prisons in Australia?---Yes.
PN8921
And you will see at paragraph 4, then, second sentence:
PN8922
The Correctional Administrators Conference held in Melbourne in October 1996 revised the minimum standard guidelines for Australian prisons and developed guidelines for community-based corrections.
PN8923
See that?---Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN8924
And if you go to page 3, section 1 there sets out the guiding principles?---Yes.
PN8925
Continuing:
PN8926
These guiding principles are intended to show the spirit in which correctional programs should be administered and the goals towards which administrators should aim.
PN8927
?---Yes.
PN8928
You see 1.1:
PN8929
A wide range of correctional programs should be developed based on the concept of a graduated restriction of liberty.
PN8930
1.2:
PN8931
Correctional programs are by the deprivation of liberty to varying degrees a punishment in themselves therefore correctional programs must not, except as incidental to the maintenance of discipline or justifiable segregation, aggravate the suffering inherent in such a situation.
PN8932
?---Yes.
PN8933
1.3:
PN8934
Correctional programs should address the needs and problems of offenders and prisoners in the light of the particular circumstances of their offences and their social environment and meet community expectations of reparation, deterrence and protection against criminal behaviour as reflected by decisions of sentencing and releasing authorities.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN8935
See that?---Yes.
PN8936
Continuing:
PN8937
All educational, welfare and recreational influences and forms of assistance which are appropriate should be made available and utilised in accordance with the individual needs of offenders and prisoners.
PN8938
See that?---Yes.
PN8939
And 1.4:
PN8940
The supervision of offenders and prisoners should emphasise their continuing part in the community, not their exclusion from it.
PN8941
See that?---Yes.
PN8942
And you will see at 1.5:
PN8943
Services, facilities, activities and programs should be based on the concept of individual management and desire to meet the individual needs of offenders and prisoners.
PN8944
See that?---Yes.
PN8945
Continuing:
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN8946
And particular regard should be paid to the special needs of specific groups of offenders and prisoners including aboriginal and Torres Strait Island people.
PN8947
?---Yes.
PN8948
And over the page at 1.6:
PN8949
Correctional programs should be developed which assist prisoners to integrate into the community after release.
PN8950
?---Yes.
PN8951
And 1.8 deals with the issue of no discrimination in the provision of correctional services and programs. See that?---That is correct.
PN8952
And if you go to section 3. That is on page 7?---Yes.
PN8953
3.1 deals with inspection of community involvement:
PN8954
Each administering department must establish a set of clear guidelines for the operation of prisons and community correction centres and the management of prisoners and offenders.
PN8955
See that?---Yes.
PN8956
It then goes on to deal with selection and training of personnel. 3.5, the second sentence:
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN8957
Selection programs must reflect the needs of a professional correction service and a career structure must exist in the service.
PN8958
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN8959
And if you go over to 3.6, that is further elaborated in respect of the training that is to be provided to officers who are recruited within the system?---Yes.
PN8960
And the requirements are there spelled out in the various dot points. And at 3.8 there is the requirement for a specific course of training which includes there:
PN8961
The officers' statutory responsibilities and their general and specific duties.
PN8962
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN8963
And indeed at 3.9 there is provision there for induction training?---Yes.
PN8964
And what is to be covered in respect of that. And at 3.10 there is the reference to ongoing training within the course of the career structure?---Yes.
PN8965
And at page 24 you will see in terms of the management of the system, is the general standard or principle at 5.23:
PN8966
New prisons accommodation should generally be provided in single cells or rooms.
PN8967
Do you see that?---Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN8968
Continuing:
PN8969
Provision may be made, however, for multiple cell accommodation for the management of particular prisoners.
PN8970
?---Yes.
PN8971
And at 5.25:
PN8972
All accommodation provided for the use of prisoners should meet all requirements of health with due regard being paid to climactic conditions, particularly to cubic content of air, floor space, lighting, heating and ventilation.
PN8973
At page 25, the top, it goes on to deal with discipline and punishment and use of force?---Yes.
PN8974
It continues over onto page 26 dealing with such things as instruments of restraint. 27, part 2 there commences in terms of management of prisoners and that goes to such issues as clothing and bedding. Do you see that?---Yes.
PN8975
To work, recreation, education and activities?---Yes.
PN8976
5.57 on page 27 you see:
PN8977
All prisoners should have access to productive work, education, recreation and leisure programs and facilities which provide them with the opportunity to utilise their time in prison in a constructive and beneficial manner.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN8978
?---Yes, yes.
PN8979
Continuing:
PN8980
The manager of the institution has the responsibility to encourage prisoners to participate in such programs.
PN8981
Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN8982
And there is, at 5.59, provision for prisoners to be remunerated for the work that they undertake?---Yes.
PN8983
And studies that they may undertake as well?---Yes.
PN8984
5.63, the provision that prisoners have access to library facilities?---That is correct.
PN8985
And then further down that page it deals with the issue of health services?---Yes.
PN8986
And what is required in respect of health services. And it then goes on to deal with, at page 30, psychiatrically disturbed and intellectually disabled prisoners and at page 31 deals with the issue of religion?---Yes.
PN8987
Continuing:
PN8988
Prisoners must have the right to practise religion of their choice.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN8989
?---That is correct.
PN8990
So they are the standard guidelines that apply across the system. And the other key element in the regulatory environment, Mr Myers, is as I mentioned previously, the correctional policy and management standards for men's prisons in Victoria, isn't it?---Yes.
PN8991
If I can hand you a copy of that. And these have been developed, as it is clear, by the Office of the Correctional Services Commissioner, Mr Myers?---That is correct.
PN8992
And they apply system wide, don't they?---I guess they apply system wide. They refer back to the standards and what was contained in the service agreements. My understanding, this was a document that was prepared for public consumption so that people had an understanding of what was going to be contained in the contracts associated with the private providers.
PN8993
But these are the standards promulgated by the office that are to apply across the system, both public and private?---Yes.
PN8994
And they go to, again, a wide range of matters, including prison management?---Yes.
PN8995
As you will see, of the services and so forth?---Yes.
PN8996
And if we can - I take you to page 1 of the document. You will see there, the first paragraph under Background:
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN8997
The Minister for Corrections, on behalf of the Victorian Government, is pleased to publish this correctional policy and these management standards for men's prisons in the Victorian prison system. This document complements the previously issued standards for women's prisons. These two documents are designed to facilitate the consistent implementation of correctional policy in Victoria ...
PN8998
See that?---Mm.
PN8999
...through a set of policy standards for prison operations.
PN9000
?---Yes.
PN9001
And you will see under Legislative and Policy Context:
PN9002
The policy and standards are subordinate to the Corrections Act 1986 and the Corrections Regulations which have been substantially revised in recent years.
PN9003
?---That is correct.
PN9004
The legislative change is ..... for the powers of the Minister for Corrections to enter into contracts with non-government parties for the provision of correctional services.
PN9005
See that?---Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9006
Then it goes on:
PN9007
Pursuant to the Corrections Act 1986, the Office of the Correctional Services Commissioner was established in July 1985 -
PN9008
which we have already been through -
PN9009
and the Office is responsible for the overall strategic management and over-site of the Victorian correctional system, including strategic planning -
PN9010
and so on?---Yes.
PN9011
And you go over the page there and see in the second full paragraph:
PN9012
The management standards for men's prisons have been developed to ensure consistent correctional management policies and standards for men's prisons in the Victorian prison system.
PN9013
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9014
The standards have been the basis upon which contractual arrangements with the contracted providers for the formal correctional centre in the metropolitan men's prison have been made.
PN9015
?---That is correct.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9016
And as I said, they - and if you go over to page 3, you will then see under: Corrections Policy, reference to Victorian Government Policy on Corrections; do you see that?---Yes.
PN9017
And 2.1:
PN9018
The Victorian Government expects the prison system to play a critical role in protecting the community by containing and supervising prisoners and offenders in a safe, secure, humane and just manner.
PN9019
?---That is correct.
PN9020
Providing opportunities for rehabilitation which prepare prisoners and offenders for law-abiding and productive participation in the community.
PN9021
?---Yes.
PN9022
And facilitating reparation to the community through work.
PN9023
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9024
And it talks about what is required in terms of:
PN9025
...persons responsible for managing prison services and supervising prisoners and offenders.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9026
This is at 2.2, do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN9027
And under .3 states:
PN9028
Provide a system of individualised prisoner management which meets the needs of specific groups and which ensures opportunities to develop skills.
PN9029
?---Yes.
PN9030
Under .5, it says:
PN9031
Encourage prisoners to develop responsibilities for the actions they take.
PN9032
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9033
Values which reinforce law-abiding and non-violent participation in the community.
PN9034
?---Yes.
PN9035
An acceptance of community standards.
PN9036
?---Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9037
A respect for the rights of others.
PN9038
?---That is correct.
PN9039
And you will see, the second dot point over the page:
PN9040
Provide for the personal safety of staff and prisoners by ensuring a prison environment which protects the physical and emotional well-being of individuals.
PN9041
?---That is correct.
PN9042
And the next dot point:
PN9043
Provide a management system which maintains security and meets the different and particular needs of specific groups of prisoners, including long-term prisoners, prisoners who are vulnerable, prisoners who have attracted notoriety, prisoners who have presented management concerns, prisoners who may seek to control or stand over other prisoners and prisoners with particular cultural or religious needs.
PN9044
Do you see that?---Yes, I see that.
PN9045
And then under 2.3 there is reference there to providing opportunities for rehabilitation:
PN9046
The prison system is to provide prisoners with opportunities for rehabilitation with the aims of firstly reducing offender behaviour.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9047
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9048
Preparing prisoners for law-abiding and productive participation in the community on their release.
PN9049
?---Yes.
PN9050
And in order to achieve those aims a range of things are there specified which includes:
PN9051
Prisons will provide a range of facilities, programs, education and training courses relevant to the needs of prisoners, including those with special needs, non-English-speaking prisoners and prisoners with disabilities.
PN9052
Do you see that?---That is correct, yes.
PN9053
Dot point 3:
PN9054
Rehabilitation programs are to challenge the individual circumstances and behaviour that led to the criminal activity, encourage responsibility for actions and promote self esteem.
PN9055
?---Yes.
PN9056
Dot point 5:
PN9057
Prisoners are to be encouraged to participate in rehabilitative programs in order to achieve parole at the earliest possible date.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9058
?---Yes.
PN9059
Do you see that? And the last dot point on that page:
PN9060
Services are provided to meet the particular psychological, social and spiritual needs of prisoners.
PN9061
Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN9062
And at the top of page 5, is the statement:
PN9063
The supervision of prisoners is to emphasise their continuing part in the community and not their exclusion from it.
PN9064
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9065
And then if you go over the page, there is the reference to the Correctional Management Standards?---Yes.
PN9066
And again, it states:
PN9067
The Government has developed the following management standards for application in Victorian men's prisons.
PN9068
The second paragraph:
PN9069
The format for these standards is that they output focussed, with the responsibility and needs of implementation of the standards directed to the operator of each correctional facility.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9070
Do you see that?---That is right. Yes.
PN9071
And the major objectives of the standards are to maintain or improve the level and quality of services provided in prisons?---Yes.
PN9072
And encourage management innovation by prison managers to maximise cost effectiveness.
PN9073
Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN9074
And the standards are there set out, which range form such matters as safety, which is on page 7?---Yes.
PN9075
And that is - you there have it structured in such a way that under 1.1 you have the outcome, which is:
PN9076
The prison environment maximises the safety of staff and prisoners - visitors and prisoners.
PN9077
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9078
And then you have the outputs, presumably against which the outcome is measured?---Yes, that is my understanding.
PN9079
Yes. And that includes under 1.2(a):
PN9080
The prison manager provides an environment where prisoners' safety is maximised by providing adequate supervision, suitable placement within the prison, and effective management of prisoners.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9081
?---That is correct.
PN9082
Now if you then go to page 17, we have got the standard that deals with prisoner management?---Yes.
PN9083
With a number of outcomes there, including:
PN9084
The prison management system effectively controls and supervises prisoners in a humane and just manner while maximising the protection of the community.
PN9085
?---Yes.
PN9086
You see that? Encourages prisoners - this under (c), 6.1(c)
PN9087
Encourages prisoners to develop responsibility for their actions and to develop ethical values which reinforce law abiding and non-violent participation in the community.
PN9088
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9089
And under (d):
PN9090
Provides prisoners with opportunities for rehabilitation.
PN9091
Do you see that?---Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9092
And under 6.2, it there deals with the issue of outputs. You see there 6.1.2(a):
PN9093
Prisoners have access to skills development, therapeutic programs, that are based on research and proven methods, and that address issues relevant to the life experiences and histories of offending - of prisoners.
PN9094
?---That is correct.
PN9095
And under (e), 6.2(e):
PN9096
Prisoners are encouraged to become involved in the running of various activities, have in-put into aspects of their management, and are provided with opportunities to accept positions of trust and responsibility.
PN9097
Do you see that?---That is correct.
PN9098
And the prison manager, it goes on:
PN9099
The prison manager is required to provide a structured prisoner day, which maximises program involvement by prisoners.
PN9100
?---Yes.
PN9101
Do you see that:
PN9102
Maximises activities involvement by prisoners.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9103
?---Yes.
PN9104
And takes account for specific prisoner groups, which are there listed?---That is correct. Yes.
PN9105
If we then go to page 38, the standard is there set out for education and training?---Yes.
PN9106
And at 23.1, the Outcome:
PN9107
Prisoners are given opportunities to develop skills necessary for effective participation in the labour market after their release.
PN9108
Do you see that?---That is correct.
PN9109
And the Outputs:
PN9110
The prison manager provides accredited education and training programs -
PN9111
which you will see under (a) -
PN9112
are consistent with and link in with the priority programs and pathways outlined in the annual Corrections Industry Training Plan - - -
PN9113
?---Yes.
PN9114
- - - which enables prisoners to continue training as they move through the prison system.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9115
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9116
Provide education and training qualifications which had State or national accreditation, and which are delivered by education and training providers recognised by the State Training Authority.
PN9117
?---That is right, yes.
PN9118
Under (c):
PN9119
Deliver education and training programs which include the strategies of recognition of higher learning and competency based training.
PN9120
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9121
And under (e):
PN9122
Allow prisoners to pursue part-time studies that are accredited with outside education providers.
PN9123
?---Yes, that - yes, I see that.
PN9124
And then if you go to page 42, you there see the Outcome is:
PN9125
That prisoners are provided with access to personal development programs, including assistance in resolving personal difficulties and crises.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9126
Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN9127
And Outputs:
PN9128
The prison manager is there required to provide a range of personal development and life skills programs to meet the biological, social, psychological and spiritual needs of prisoners.
PN9129
Do you see that?---Yes.
[10.43am]
PN9130
And:
PN9131
Be appropriately trained professional staff to assist prisoners in resolving difficulties and crises.
PN9132
?---That is right.
PN9133
And if you go to page 45, it there deals with fitness, sport and recreation. And the outcome there is:
PN9134
Prisoners maintain mental and physical health, learn to use leisure time constructively and develop positive social habits by having access to a range of active and passive recreational activities.
PN9135
Do you see that?---Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9136
And part of the outputs requirement there is that:
PN9137
The prison manager is to ensure that prisoners have access to open air for not less than one hour per day, weather permitting.
PN9138
?---Yes.
PN9139
And:
PN9140
Prisoners are provided with a range of active/passage group and individual activities.
PN9141
?---That is correct.
PN9142
And:
PN9143
Fitness and sporting activities are supervised by appropriately trained or qualified staff.
PN9144
?---Correct.
PN9145
And:
PN9146
Prisoners have access to a well stocked and diverse library.
PN9147
?---Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9148
Yes. And then if you go to page 47, the standards there deal with treatment programs?---Yes.
PN9149
The Outcome is:
PN9150
Prisoners have access to specific treatment programs designed to address issues related to their offending behaviour.
PN9151
You see that?---Yes, I do.
PN9152
And the outputs in terms of the obligation on the prison manager is:
PN9153
To provide prisoners with access to treatment programs such as substance abuse, abuse, violent behaviour and sex offender treatment programs.
PN9154
Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN9155
And at (c) - 30.2(c) you will see the prison manager is also required:
PN9156
To provide a range of programs of varying intensities to allow prisoners to address issues relating to their offending.
PN9157
?---That is right.
PN9158
And then if we go to page 49 by way of further example, there is the standard relating to preparation for release; do you see that?---Yes, I do.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9159
And the outcome there is that:
PN9160
Sentenced prisoners are systematically prepared for release prior to their discharge.
PN9161
?---Yes.
PN9162
And the outputs there is the prison manager is required:
PN9163
To provide programs which prepare prisoners for release, including modules on practical areas such as housing, social security, legal aid, operating bank accounts, financial planning and identification documents.
PN9164
Do you see that?---Yes, yes, I do.
PN9165
And under (b):
PN9166
Promotes community involvement by encouraging community agencies with expertise in providing services for prisoners to provide a range of programs and support services within and external to the prison, including during the pre-release and post-release periods.
PN9167
See that?---Yes.
PN9168
And the standards even deal with such things as prisoner moneys on page 56:
PN9169
To ensure that the moneys are recorded, stored, transferred and controlled in an effective manner that respects the rights of prisoners.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9170
?---Yes.
PN9171
Yes. And at page 58 the standards deal with the matter of staff selection and training and the outcome being:
PN9172
Prisoners are managed by appropriately selected and trained staff.
PN9173
And again there the outputs include the fact that the prison manager is required:
PN9174
To ensure the appropriate recruitment and selection of training staff and provide initial training and ongoing training.
PN9175
You see that?---Yes, I do.
PN9176
And:
PN9177
All prison managers are required to submit the names of proposed staff to the Commissioner for authorisation and clearance in compliance with the requirements of the Corrections Act.
PN9178
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9179
And then if you go over the page there, the standard deals with information systems management?---Yes.
PN9180
And over the page again, prisoner records management; you see that?---That is correct.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9181
Right. Now, the next essential component in terms of the regulatory environment, Mr Myers, is indeed the unit management guidelines; that is correct, is it not?---I am not sure that they are a codified, legislated document. They are a guide, that is what they are.
PN9182
All right. Well, you heard the evidence of Mr Hutchison?---Yes.
PN9183
And would you agree that unit management as an operating philosophy was introduced into the Victorian correction system in the late '80s, early '90s?---Yes, it was.
PN9184
And indeed, it was in operation at Pentridge Prison in the late '80s, early '90s?---We implemented it there, yes.
PN9185
Yes. And indeed it was implemented while you were there?---Yes, it was, yes.
PN9186
And that included the implementation of the unit management philosophy including implementation of IMP files?---Yes, it did.
PN9187
And the philosophy of unit management has been gradually extended throughout the Victorian correct system indeed from the late '80s into the early '90s?---Yes, it was.
PN9188
And Mr Hutchison described the core of unit management as being all about harm minimisation for prisoners and the fact that prisoners are required to take responsibility for their actions. Would you agree that those things lie at the core of - - -?---That is the guiding principles, yes.
PN9189
Can the witness be shown exhibit CPSU24, your Honour.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9190
These are the unit management guidelines that I am referring to, Mr Myers?---Yes.
PN9191
Can I take you - if you turn over the first page, you see there - if I can take you to the right-hand side of the first page in terms of the first - the full paragraph that appears on that page that starts with "We cannot guarantee"; do you see that?---Yes.
PN9192
And this is Mr Harmsworth, who was the Director-General at that stage:
PN9193
We cannot guarantee that they will not re-offend -
PN9194
this is referring to prisoners -
PN9195
just as we cannot guarantee that their experience of prison will not have involved emotional or social suffering. What we can do, despite the constraints of imprisonment, is provide prisoners with the best possible opportunity to become law abiding members of society.
PN9196
See that?---Yes.
PN9197
Yes:
PN9198
And to help us better achieve this aim, we have chosen the concept of unit management as our future approach. Unit management has not been opted for because it is new and trendy, but because it is a proven way of managing prisoners effectively and can be tailored to suit their own culture, abilities and needs.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9199
See that?---Yes.
PN9200
He goes on to say:
PN9201
This manual outlines Victoria's approach to unit management. It is not a replica of any other systems approach, nor is it completely new. It is a collection of concepts and ideas that have been taken from the best of our past, what we consider to be the best and most workable from other systems and the best of our own fresh ideas, ideas contributed by a number of Office of Corrections staff. Having drawn these ideas together, the manual proposes a model of prisoner management that is unique to Victoria.
PN9202
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9203
He goes on to say:
PN9204
Setting it apart from other management systems, it is the importance it places on line staff, that is officers who supervise and work directly with prisoners. They are the backbond of the prison service and inevitably it is they who have the task of turning management systems and programs into concrete reality.
PN9205
See that?---Yes.
PN9206
Yes:
PN9207
This manual is based on the fundamental premise that it is frontline staff that have the responsibility of translating theory and concepts into actions. This reality was very much to the fore in the author's mind as he wrote each chapter of the manual.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9208
And if you would go to the last full paragraph there, at about line 6 he states:
PN9209
It is a document that promises to become the foundation for creating major change throughout the Victorian prison system. It is a document that provides the vision for the future and spells out our aims and aspirations for prison management well into the next century.
PN9210
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9211
Yes:
PN9212
It is also a document that I have no doubt will assist staff to achieve a high level of excellence in the management and operation of the prison system.
PN9213
See that?---Yes.
PN9214
And do you see - if you go over the page on page 5 to the Foreword, second full paragraph:
PN9215
To become more effective, imprisonment must continue to offer the temporal protection of incapacitation and deterrence and at the same time it must lessen the harmful effects.
PN9216
See that?---Yes.
PN9217
Yes:
PN9218
That balance can only be achieved through good management and leadership.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9219
?---Yes.
PN9220
He goes on to say:
PN9221
In terms of management, this means that prison staff must provide prisoners with the opportunity to develop or maintain skills that will enhance their chances of living a crime-free life after they are released, skills that lead to responsibility, self-reliance and self-discipline. In terms of leadership, it means that prison staff, all prison staff, must serve as earnest examples of honesty, fairness, tolerance, patience and understanding, all qualities our society holds dear.
PN9222
See that?---Yes, I do.
PN9223
And if you then go over to page 8, the section on Managing the Future; do you see that?---Yes.
PN9224
Third line:
PN9225
Good management is determined by good managers, and unit management provides a framework for good management. It cannot make good managers. Nevertheless, the framework is based on proven management techniques that reflect the experience of our prison systems in other states and nations in the management of supervision practices of a wide variety of unrelated organisations ranging from the armed services through to high technology industries.
PN9226
Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN9227
And:
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9228
Unit managers should work in a manner of situations, but it is completely dependent on the willingness and enthusiasm of people who want to see a job well done.
PN9229
?---Yes.
PN9230
And if you go over to the next paragraph, still on page 8:
PN9231
In many ways unit management is a shift from a depersonalised approach to prisoner management towards an active, direct and vital style.
PN9232
See that?---That is correct.
PN9233
Yes:
PN9234
The key to unit management success lies in the skill of its users.
PN9235
?---That is true.
PN9236
And if you then go to page 13, reducing the swing under the heading:
PN9237
Today through unit management staff are encouraged to exercise a new leadership role in the prison.
PN9238
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9239
Yes:
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9240
It is a middle-of-the-road approach which gives staff enough power to manage prisoners positively and maintain good discipline.
PN9241
?---Yes.
PN9242
And it then goes on to make reference to the rise of unit management, and you will see there it states:
PN9243
The turbulent 1970s forced many prison systems to re-examine management styles and prison administrative procedures. On the basis of earlier experiments, the US Federal Bureau of Prisons began to adopt the unit management approach to regain full control of its system.
PN9244
See that?---Yes, I do.
PN9245
Yes:
PN9246
Since then, other systems have followed suit. Today the world's most successful prison systems, the US Federal Bureau, the Federal Canadian, the Dutch and the Swedish prison systems, apply unit management in all their practices.
PN9247
?---Yes.
PN9248
And if you go to page 20 - first of all can I take you to page 18 briefly. There is reference there to the growth of unit management; do you see that?---Yes.
PN9249
Yes:
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9250
Unit management's most distinctive feature is the management of prisoners in relatively small groups.
PN9251
?---Yes.
PN9252
Yes:
PN9253
Australia's interest in unit management can be traced back to recommendations in the Nagle Report 1978.
PN9254
And then it talks about the development of unit management within Victoria?---Yes.
PN9255
And the second paragraph on page 18 on the right-hand side:
PN9256
Other systems have had the same experience; in fact, wherever prison systems have made serious attempts to introduce unit management, they have found very positive improvements, particularly in staff morale, the discipline and control of prisoners, the level of involvement by staff and prisoners and the relationship between staff and prisoners. Unit management has been responsible for reductions in assaults on staff, reductions in tension, reductions in vandalism and a lessening of incidents generally.
PN9257
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9258
And:
PN9259
Other less measurable but no less important benefits have been increased respect by prisoners for authority and an increased value placed on social order and harmony by prisoners and an increased ability to accept responsibility and independence.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9260
See that?---I see that.
PN9261
And if you go to page 35, you will see "Unit Management: What is It?" under the heading there?---Yes.
PN9262
It states:
PN9263
A unit is a group of individuals. Unit management is merely a way of managing that group. In a prison it is a way of managing groups of prisoners. The Office of Corrections Principles of Unit Management create an expectation that a very high standard will be applied to managing prisoners, and prison staff are given the tools necessary to meet that standard. Used effectively, these tools not only provide the basis for a high standard of supervision, but also provide the basis for conflict resolution and the reduction of tension and stress and greater staff control over the work environment.
PN9264
It then goes on to deal with managing groups and at page 36, chapter 4, "Principles and A Concept", if you look at the second full paragraph on the right-hand side at paragraph 36:
PN9265
The philosophy is wholly positive, effective and constructive prisoner management. It should give prisoners a ticket to freedom that is valid long term and acceptable to the entire community. Importantly, we should come to think of that valid ticket of freedom as a normal product of imprisonment.
PN9266
See that?---Yes, I do.
PN9267
Again that lies at the heart of unit management philosophy, Mr Myers?---Yes, it does.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9268
And can I take you to chapter 6, page 50, that is headed "Unit Management and Normality; Bringing the Outside In"?---Yes.
PN9269
And that chapter is devoted to the notion, amongst other things, of reducing prisoner dependency; do you see that?---Yes.
PN9270
And the second full paragraph, the second sentence states - do you see that:
PN9271
That is why institutional management systems have tended to maintain a monotonous pattern of daily life. For added convenience many prisoner also minimise a prisoner's responsibilities, it being far easier to manage another person's life than it is to manage their management of it.
PN9272
?---Yes.
PN9273
Yes:
PN9274
Similarly, it is far easier to make all decisions for others because the person making the decisions feels more in control of the process, one of the reasons why delegating decision making powers to staff and prisoners was considered impractical under traditional management systems.
PN9275
So that is comparing the old to the new in terms of prison philosophy?---Yes.
PN9276
And it then goes on to say:
PN9277
Rigid routines do work so long as management and control is the only end, but if the way a prisoner is managed inside a prison makes a prisoner dependent and unfit for survival outside, expedient management systems can be seen to contribute to crime rather than diminish it.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9278
See that?---Yes, I do.
PN9279
And are you of that belief, Mr Myers?---I subscribe to that, yes.
PN9280
And it goes towards the bottom of page 50, "Preparing For a Life Outside". If you look down towards the bottom, the sentence begins:
PN9281
Very few are prepared by their imprisonment for the demands of life after release. This can only occur in a setting that balances security, control, discipline, safety, health and the immediate needs of prisoners in a way that reflects the pressures of life outside.
PN9282
Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN9283
And if you go to page 52, you then see "What is Normal In A Prison". If you go to the second paragraph:
PN9284
By treating prisoners as responsible adults, an expectation is created that the prisoner will act as a reasonable person. Action will only be taken when expected standards of behaviour are not met.
PN9285
Do you see that?---Mm.
PN9286
Yes:
PN9287
This is the way we normally deal with people outside prison and is reflected in the courtesies and manners we extend to them.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9288
And if you go to page 56 in chapter 7 which begins at page 54 under the heading, "Setting Goals", you see at page 56, first paragraph:
PN9289
Under unit management's Individual Management Planning, IMP process, it is mandatory that officers set goals with prisoners and that unit teams set their own goals and objectives.
PN9290
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9291
Yes:
PN9292
That way you will know what you need to achieve and you will also know what your prisoners need to achieve.
PN9293
?---Yes.
PN9294
Yes:
PN9295
And in many cases the two goals will be interrelated - the two levels will be interrelated, particularly the goals and objectives set by unit industries and specialist program staff.
PN9296
And if we then go to page 70, it is chapter 9, which is headed The Custodial Role, see that?---Yes.
PN9297
And it states "Prison officer, a good all-rounder":
PN9298
It is an axiom of prison management that prison officers are the single most important staff working in the prison.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9299
See that?---Yes.
PN9300
You agree with that?---I would agree with that. They have most contact, yes.
PN9301
They have to manage and control prisoners while ensuring that they progress through their sentence in conditions of safety and humanity.
PN9302
And that accords with their statutory duty of care, does it not?---That is correct.
PN9303
It is a demanding role, one that prisoner officers for the most part have done well.
PN9304
You agree with that?---Yes, I do.
PN9305
In the past, however, the role has had very little to do with the programming and personal development aspects of a prisoner's life.
PN9306
Do you agree with that?---Yes, I do in that context, yes.
PN9307
That is, again, referring to the traditional philosophy, if I could use that term, of - - -?---Yes, the traditional approach, yes.
PN9308
- - - incarceration?---Yes.
PN9309
Consequently, officers have not had the opportunity to offer prisoners a well-rounded, complete form of management and, to be most effective, custodial management must involve more than just the use of security and prisoner movement systems.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9310
You see that?---That is correct, yes.
PN9311
And then it goes on in the next paragraph, about the middle:
PN9312
The notion that custodial staff should become involved in all areas of a prisoner's life, including having a basic responsibility for their welfare, is based on the common sense proposition that to be an effective manager an officer must, firstly, have a good general knowledge of the prisoner's daily activities, commitments and associates.
PN9313
See that?---Yes.
PN9314
...be familiar with the prisoner's background, motivations, problems, aspirations and needs...
PN9315
?---I see that.
PN9316
Yes:
PN9317
...and be able in light of his or her knowledge to manage the prisoner with insight and skill.
PN9318
?---Yes, I see that.
PN9319
And you would agree that that is all part of the correctional staff officer's role?---I don't know if I would agree that that is all of the officer's role. Number 2 seems to be very broad-sweeping and sometimes you are not able to ascertain what a prisoner's motivations are or understand their background. I mean, sometimes it is hidden and sometimes you can't - you don't get that information.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9320
You would agree, though, that part of the philosophy is designed in such a way that a case officer will develop a good knowledge of the prisoner's background, which may then help to explain or understand the relevant motives or problems the prisoner may be experiencing? May not provide the key but it may certainly help to?---I think once you establish that rapport, you can draw certain things out of a prisoner. It helps you manage them, yes.
PN9321
Now if you go to page 91 it is headed there The Program's Role, and it has got "The question of reducing the damage." Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9322
And it states, second paragraph:
PN9323
Prisoners bring many problems to prison which may or may not add to - - -
PN9324
?---Yes.
PN9325
- - - which we may or may not add to. They also bring many skills which we may or may not preserve. Reason tells us, however, that by adding to a prisoner's problems and failing to preserve skills ultimately add to the community's problems with the prisoner's release.
PN9326
See that?---Yes.
PN9327
At the least, we should aim for us to preserve the status quo and not make the situation worse. Alternatively, we can aim to improve the situation by taking a more active role in the development and productive aspects of imprisonment.
PN9328
Programming: you can help improve the long term prospects of prisoners in the community by contributing to crime prevention.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9329
See that?---Yes, I do.
PN9330
And chapter 12 on page 92 is headed The Program's Role Reducing the Harm of Imprisonment. Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9331
And that is all about the role of the prison and prison staff in reducing the harm that may be occasioned by prisoners within the prison environment. That is correct? And if you look at the first full paragraph on page 92 on the right-hand side, second sentence:
PN9332
The real challenge facing prison staff is to win over prisoners by actually letting them experience a better life. Ideally, we should bring the best aspects of the outside world into the prison. That is not altogether possible but we can at least move in that direction. Before that can happen, all prison staff have to be seen as active participants in the prison community, a community that shares staff values and reflects them in all aspects of prison life.
PN9333
See that?---Yes.
PN9334
And it goes over on page 94 to deal with the issue of individual management planning?---Yes.
PN9335
Review and assessment, recreation, education and training and industry; see that?---Yes.
PN9336
And at page 96, personal development programs, general welfare and counselling; see that?---Yes.
PN9337
Just have a look at this document for me, Mr Myers, exhibit CPS - - -
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9338
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Have you finished with the other document?
PN9339
MR LAWRENCE: I have finished with the unit management guidelines for the time being, your Honour, yes.
PN9340
This is exhibit CPSU16?---Yes.
PN9341
Are you familiar with this document, Mr Myers?---Yes, I am.
PN9342
This is the report, this is the Kirby report; this is a report, an independent investigation of the management operations of Victoria's prison systems?---That is correct.
PN9343
And the members of the committee, as it is plain from the letter that is contained effectively at page 2 of that, Mr Peter Kirby, Vivienne Roach and Brian Greaves; do you see that?---Yes.
PN9344
And this was a report that was provided to the Minister in October 2000?---That is right.
PN9345
And you will notice in terms of the opening letter, it states:
PN9346
The panel has now completed its work and we are pleased to submit our report for your consideration.
PN9347
?---Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9348
In the course of our investigation, we received the fullest of co-operation and support from departmental officers and their portfolio and, in particular, from management and staff in the Commissioner's office CORE and those public and private prisons we visited.
PN9349
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9350
Full support was also given to us in our more limited contact with the Office of Post Compulsory Education Training Employment and the Department of Human Services.
PN9351
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9352
And can I take you to page 47 of that report, Mr Myers?---Yes.
PN9353
And do you see there at the third paragraph on that page:
PN9354
Up until recently the role of custodial staff - - -
PN9355
?---I think you - - -
PN9356
Sorry?---Which paragraph?
PN9357
Under 5.1, do you see "Context" there?---5.1, yes.
PN9358
Yes, it is effectively the last paragraph on that page?---Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9359
Up until recently the role of custodial staff was centred primarily on security and containment, and their authority was reinforced by the well-defined hierarchical order established within the prison system.
PN9360
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9361
In essence - and would you agree with that as a description?---Yes, I would.
PN9362
It goes on to say:
PN9363
In essence, a job of correctional staff was to oversee the good order of the prison, keep records, and maintain a social and psychological distance from prisoners.
PN9364
Do you agree with that?---I don't agree with that. No, I don't.
PN9365
This is referring to the traditional philosophy that prevailed?---Oh, if it is a traditional philosophy, then yes. I am sorry, yes, I would agree with that.
PN9366
Now, the - - -
PN9367
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So that is in the past tense then?---Yes.
PN9368
MR LAWRENCE: Yes, yes. Yes, I think the second sentence is certainly related to the first - - -
PN9369
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9370
MR LAWRENCE: - - - to the past role of correctional staff. And it then goes on to state:
PN9371
In the early 1990s case management in an embryonic form was gradually introduced throughout the prison system under the generic heading of unit management.
PN9372
And that accords with the evidence you have given earlier, Mr Myers - - -?---Yes, yes.
PN9373
- - - and the other documents we have been to. It then goes on to provide a quote:
PN9374
This was a style of managing prisoners which allowed for greater interaction amongst prisoners and prison staff in order to develop greater security and safety, as well as encouraging rehabilitation through increased and better structured programmed participation.
PN9375
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9376
And do you see that that is a quote from a submission made to the committee by CORE?---Yes, I see that.
PN9377
And it goes on over the page to say:
PN9378
This development has probably had more impact on the role of prison staff and their relationships with prisoners than any other policy decision.
PN9379
?---Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9380
Would you agree with that?---Yes.
PN9381
And such changes clearly have implications for the type of staff who are recruited and the nature of the training provided to custodial officers.
PN9382
Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN9383
And do you agree with that general observation?---I agree with that, yes, I do.
PN9384
All right. Thank you, Mr Myers. You can keep that report with you for the time being. Now, and it is true, isn't it, that Fulham is organised on the basis of unit management principles?---Yes, it forms part of the - I guess, the specification that was put out to design the prison and do - conduct its management.
PN9385
Yes. And if I can go back to the - take you back to the regulatory environment in which the - in which correctional services are provided, Mr Myers. We have looked at the Corrections Act, and we have looked at unit management guidelines and so on. Another pivotal part of the regulatory environment is the sentence management unit within the Office of the Correctional Services Commissioner?---That is correct, yes.
PN9386
And that unit determines prisoners' placements and their subsequent progression through the prison system?---Yes, they do.
PN9387
And that unit determines centrally a prisoner's security classification?---Yes, they do, yes.
PN9388
Whether the prisoner is maximum, medium or minimum?---That is correct, yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9389
And it creates an individual management plan for the prisoner, including consideration of any special needs of the prisoner?---That is true, that is correct.
PN9390
And it determines the optimum placement of the prisoner to a selected prison?---I wouldn't say optimum placement. They determine the placement of prisoners.
[11.14am]
PN9391
I see, and following the prisoners' arrival at the selected prison, the prison operator is required to do a range of things, including provide the prisoner with sufficient information and adequate orientation upon reception?---That is correct, yes.
PN9392
Undertake an individual assessment of the prisoner, with a view to establishing the prisoner's treatment needs, if any?---Yes.
PN9393
Assign the prisoner to a particular unit within the prison?---That is correct, yes.
PN9394
And designate a case manager to supervise the prisoners' individual management plans?---That is correct, yes.
PN9395
And another central tenet of the regulatory system is the Office of the Correctional Services Commissioner itself?---Yes, it is, yes.
PN9396
And it plays a key role in, as we have noted, monitoring the ongoing tasks undertaken at the local prison level, managing the prisoner population?---That is correct, yes.
PN9397
And the sentence management unit within the OCSC has key responsibility for monitoring the overall effectiveness of prisoner management functions progressively undertaken within prisons?---Could you repeat that question because in my mind it is confused in relation to the monitoring and in what sense management does.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9398
But the sentence management unit with OCSC has the key responsibility for monitoring the overall effectiveness of prisoner management functions?---Prisoner management functions, yes, it does.
PN9399
And, indeed, the OCSC is also responsible for assessing the extent to which correctional services in both the private and public sectors have been delivered against the required standards. That is correct, isn't it?---That is correct, yes.
PN9400
And another key feature of the regulatory system is the Corrections Industry Training Board?---I wouldn't consider it a key feature in that sense. It does review and look at trends in relation to industry and training that occurs and sort of sets some parameters for what needs to take place within the prison system. My understanding is that the body hasn't been as active in the past 18 months as it was in the past, so I think it is trying to again gain some ascendancy within the system.
PN9401
And it has played a role in a range of areas, perhaps not as substantial today as it was, but in such things as the development of the annual corrections industry training plan?---Yes, yes, that is correct.
PN9402
And developing strategies for ensuring the ongoing delivery and monitoring of accredited training?---The delivery and accreditation of ongoing training I think doesn't lie with them in that sense. They propose the program, but the providers have their training and education providers assessed independently through - it is the Department of Education in Victoria.
PN9403
Yes, well, they play a role perhaps one step removed from that in terms of developing the overall broader strategies?---Yes, that is right.
PN9404
And on this matter, can I again take you to the Kirby report, Mr Myers, page 61?---Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9405
Do you see there at page 61 under the heading 6.3, work education and programs? Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9406
And the subheading is the structured day?---Yes.
PN9407
And it goes on to state there:
PN9408
According to the correctional policy and minimum standards established by the Office of Correctional Services Commissioner, all prison operators must provide a schedule that addresses the wide range of needs within the prisoner population.
PN9409
Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN9410
The prison operator must develop a schedule for mainstream prisoners which provides regimes to meet the needs of the diverse prisoner groups at the prison.
PN9411
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9412
Provides all prisoners with a minimum of 12 hours out of their cells each day.
PN9413
?---Yes.
PN9414
Provides work for sentenced prisoners for at least six hours per day, 10 days per fortnight.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9415
?---Yes.
PN9416
Enables all prisoners to participate in a minimum of four hours accredited education training each week.
PN9417
?---Yes.
PN9418
Maximises involvement in programs and activities.
PN9419
?---Yes.
PN9420
And accounts for the needs of specific prisoner groups.
PN9421
Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN9422
And it goes on to say:
PN9423
The prisoners placed in a management or security unit pending investigation into an alleged offence. The prison operator must provide a regime that includes a minimum of eight hours out of cell time and four hours of meaningful work and/or programmed activity per day.
PN9424
Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN9425
And that accords with your knowledge of the obligations that are placed on prison operators within the Victorian system?---That does accord with my knowledge, yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9426
And if I can take you, before I finish with that for the moment, Mr Myers, to page 64?---Yes.
PN9427
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9428
Under the heading training provision?---Yes.
PN9429
TAFE institutes are funded to deliver training in public correctional facilities through their profile agreements with the State Training Board of Victoria.
PN9430
?---Yes.
PN9431
CORE is not a party to these agreements. In contrast, the State Training Board funds training in private prisons through contracts with the private prison managers who subcontract delivery to TAFE institutes.
PN9432
?---That is correct.
PN9433
And it there goes on to state:
PN9434
Delivery of adult prison training is currently undertaken by seven TAFE institutes as indicated in table 6.3.
PN9435
Do you see that?---Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9436
And you will see that in respect of prisons Ararat and Langi Kal Kal, for example, education there provided is the University of Ballarat?---That is true.
PN9437
Bendigo, Loddon and Tarrengower, the provider is the Bendigo Regional Institute of TAFE?---Yes.
PN9438
Won Wron Central Gippsland TAFE and so forth?---Yes.
PN9439
And at Port Phillip it is the Kangan Batman Institute of TAFE. Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9440
And they all represent educational partnerships between those particular institutions and the relevant prisoners?---Yes, they do.
PN9441
And as we have seen, Mr Myers, I won't take you to this specifically, but in relation to the contractual agreement between Port Phillip Prison - between Fulham and the Victorian Government, they are included in the back, effectively the specifications which includes such things as security, reception and care and control of prisoners, classification, prisoner management and those are in keeping with the standards that we have been through in terms of both the 1996 standards and the correctional policy management standards for the men's prisons?---Yes.
PN9442
So that through the regulatory environment applies across the system and, indeed, the relevant operating philosophy that applies across the system by dint of implementation of Victorian Government policy in relation to corrections?---I guess, probably, yes. In the context of the unit management guidelines, it was a book that was offered to introduce unit management, as it were, to the prison system and I suppose that was in 1990-odd. It is now 2003, so there have been I think developments and progressions within the system which have I think been very positive for the system and largely the goals have been achieved. It hasn't been without its pain, I suppose, so largely it has assisted.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9443
All right. Now, given that the unit management philosophy is the philosophy that informs and, indeed, underpins the system, can I take you to paragraph 5 of your witness statement, Mr Myers, where you say:
PN9444
The operating philosophy of Fulham when it opened, this operating philosophy is the same today as particular to the centre. That philosophy is one of minimising the harm that imprisonment can have upon a prisoner during his stay.
PN9445
?---Yes.
PN9446
Well, that is precisely the unit management philosophy, is it not, Mr Myers?---That is correct.
PN9447
And that is not a philosophy that is particular to Fulham?---Well, it is the philosophy of unit management which is adopted by Fulham Correctional Centre.
PN9448
Well, it is a philosophy of unit management that is adopted across the system, isn't it?---Yes, it is.
PN9449
And it is not an operating philosophy that is particular to Fulham?---I would concede the point, then, but it is a system-wide philosophy.
PN9450
And you go on then to say:
PN9451
Fulham attempts to develop in its prisoners a sense of responsibility for their own life.
PN9452
Do you see that?---Mm.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9453
And, indeed, that is part and parcel of the unit management philosophy that applies across the system?---Well, it is part and parcel of the philosophy. I think Fulham Correctional Centre, in its application of that philosophy has achieved more significant results in that philosophy or that practice than has been I think achieved up to that point when I left public corrections.
PN9454
Well, let us examine that, Mr Myers. You say:
PN9455
Fulham attempts to develop in its prisoners a sense of responsibility for their own lives.
PN9456
And you give certain examples there you see. You make reference to a prisoners' amenities fund. Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9457
And you are aware that evidence has been given by Mr King in respect of Port Phillip Prison and Mr Hutchison in respect of Loddon?---Yes.
PN9458
That the same or similar arrangements exists at both Port Phillip and at Loddon?---Yes, I am aware that they exist. I am not aware that Port Phillip or Loddon would allow prisoners to sign the requisition form to spend moneys from that. That was entered into in evidence, but part of the process I have at Fulham is that if we expend any moneys from this, I allow the prison - the chairman of that prisoner committee to sign the requisition form contained in my operating manual which authorises the disbursement of funds from that fund, so I think there are some fundamental differences in the trust that we put our prisoners in that sense.
PN9459
Well, there isn't a difference in terms of the nature of the fund and facility that is provided?---I think - my personal opinion is that it is a fundamental difference in the trust that I put and responsibility I put on those prisoners in managing those funds.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9460
I am instructed that prisoners sign the sheets at Port Phillip?---Okay.
PN9461
You don't now?---I don't know that.
PN9462
And if that indeed was the case, well, then there wouldn't be a fundamental difference, would there?---Well, if that is the case, yes.
PN9463
And the underlying purpose of the fund on the evidence of Mr King and Mr Hutchison is the same, is it not, that is to effectively provide a fund through which materials can be provided to prisoners?---Yes.
PN9464
And the second example you cite at 5(b):
PN9465
Fulham involves prisoners in the day to day management of the centre.
PN9466
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9467
And the evidence of Mr Hutchison and Mr King is that that also applies in relation to Loddon and Port Phillip?---Yes, that was the evidence that was led, yes.
PN9468
And, indeed, at Loddon, Mr Hutchison gave evidence that there were two levels of involvement in terms of prisoners, firstly at the unit level in terms of negotiations and discussions with staff at the unit level and at the institution level through the prisoner liaison committee. Are you aware of that?---Yes.
PN9469
And in relation to subparagraph (c):
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9470
Fulham takes into account prisoners' ideas and suggestions in the formulation of the recreation programs for prisoners.
PN9471
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9472
And you are aware that evidence has been given by Mr Hutchison and Mr King that certainly at Loddon and at Port Phillip prison, the management of those prisons take into account prisoners ideas and suggestions in the formulation of recreational programs for the prisoners?---Yes.
PN9473
Indeed, specific examples were given where facilities were built on the suggestion of the prisoners, were they not?---Yes, that was the evidence.
PN9474
Now, they are the examples you have given, Mr Myers. Are there any others?---In relation to subparagraph (c)?
PN9475
They are the examples that you have given about the ways in which Fulham attempts to develop in his prisoners a sense of responsibility for their own lives?---I guess one other I think significant example for Fulham and I am pretty sure we did take you to the gym, was the fact that Fulham has a free weights gym in its facility and I think in other facilities they are specifically barred because of the potential risk of taking weights and causing assaults. We have allowed that particular free weights system to operate at Fulham because of the responsibility that we have placed in the prisoners to ensure that it is maintained in a safe and secure manner and in the five and a half, six years that we have operated there, we have never had an incident involving any of those weights in an assault, they have never gone missing from the gym and it is a system that is valued and protected by the prisoners because of the responsibility and the importance that we placed on that particular program. They felt it was important we gave them the benefit of the doubt and they have managed that extremely well within the confines of our recreation building, so I think it is a significant step forward in managing prisoners like that, in obtaining that sort of responsibility.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9476
That is the provision of free weights?---That is right.
PN9477
Now, can I take you to paragraph 2 of your statement, Mr Myers?---Yes.
PN9478
So prior to your employment, you were employed in the public corrections system in Victoria for 14 years from 1983 to 1997?---That is correct.
PN9479
And tell me what an operational review specialist does, Mr Myers?---I was moved to COREs head office and worked in the operational review and inspection team and I guess in the 18 months that I worked there, we conducted security reviews at several prisons. I was responsible and helped develop a review system to review programs that were being delivered at the Loddon prison as well as developing an industries review document that reviewed what was happening in the industries that occurred in the prison system as it was. I also participated in the preliminary inquiries into two deaths in custody, as well as undertaking work to review coronial findings that were handed down as a result of deaths in custody and provide advice to the senior management of corrections at the time in regards to prison management issues.
PN9480
And in terms of the review function in relation to programs, what programs were you looking at?---We developed a review document that looked at the programs that were being delivered specifically at Loddon prison. It was just to review what was being delivered in relation to the drug treatment, specifically looking at, you know, was there follow-up in relation to the prisoners involved there? Were the programs accredited, getting views from the people who delivered the programs, getting views from the people who participated in the program.
PN9481
So it was mainly focusing on drug treatment programs provided at Loddon?---Not so much the drug treatment program in that sense. It was looking at what programs were delivered within the prison, so it encompassed the prisoner committees, it encompassed - they had an initial program where they managed HIV prisoners in a pathways system through Loddon and just looked at what was being delivered, how was it being delivered and was it being effective.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9482
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: When were you part of that review?---Well, we developed the review document and I guess tested it out at Loddon prison. That would have been in '95/'96.
PN9483
Thank you.
PN9484
MR LAWRENCE: That was about eight years ago?---Yes, that was.
PN9485
And did you ever work at Loddon prison, Mr Myers?---I did not work at Loddon prison.
PN9486
And you have not worked in the Victorian public correctional system for approximately six years?---Since June '97, yes.
PN9487
Can I take you to paragraph 6 of your statement, Mr Myers? You see there you state:
PN9488
Another key concept of FCCs operating philosophy is to add value to the prisoners' experience at the centre. Part of this philosophy is to enhance prisoners' values of self worth and self esteem and to equip them with the skills which may assist them once they return to mainstream society.
PN9489
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9490
Now, again, Mr Myers, that is an operating philosophy as we have seen, as evidenced through the standards that apply across the system and through unit management guidelines, that is an operating philosophy that applies across the Victorian correctional system, is it not?---Yes, it is.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9491
And you refer there to the centre has a detailed education program which includes the provision training courses by the East Gippsland Institute of TAFE. Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9492
And again that partnership between TAFE institutes and prisons is not unique to Fulham, is it?---It is not unique to Fulham, no.
PN9493
And, indeed, Mr Hutchison gave evidence about the relationship that exists between Loddon and the Bendigo Regional Institute of Technology. You are aware of that?---Yes, he did give some evidence.
PN9494
And the range of programs that are provided in respect of that relationship?---Yes, he did discuss that in his evidence. I think what wasn't discussed was the mode of operation of that particular education system. My information in relation to a recent review that was conducted in regards to education and training would suggest that the I guess efficiency of the system at Loddon isn't great. They have enormous waiting lists for people to get into the education program. They don't vertically timetable things in the sense that if I had a computer course running at Fulham, I will have 40 prisoners involved in that, all starting at varying days throughout the week, whereas as Loddon, if they have 10 spaces for the education of a particular course and those 10 people have to do the whole course before they will start a new course. It is vitally important for Fulham, it is part of our contract to ensure that we deliver the particular hours that we are required to and I think in a sense, Fulham has a more efficient operating of education than what Loddon does.
PN9495
Both Fulham and Loddon provide courses and programs through specific TAFE providers and prisoners and provided with TAFE certificates on completion of those courses?---Yes, they do.
PN9496
And, indeed, Mr King gave evidence about the partnership between Port Phillip Prison and the Kangan Batman Institute of TAFE. Do you recall that?---That is correct, yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9497
And that there is a detailed educational program in place there, covering a wide variety of areas. You are aware of that?---That is correct, yes.
PN9498
And that TAFE certificates are received by prisoners at the completion of their courses?---That is correct.
PN9499
And you go on in that paragraph, Mr Myers, to state - this is the third line from the bottom:
PN9500
Further, there is an intensive 15-week drug treatment program for prisoners with a history of drug dependency.
PN9501
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9502
And again drug treatment programs are not unique to Fulham prison, are they?---They are not unique, no.
PN9503
All Victorian correctional institutions run drug treatment programs, Mr Myers?---When you say drug treatment programs, you have intensive programs and then you have drug education programs, so I think that is where the distinctions lie.
PN9504
Well, all Victorian prisons would provide drug education programs, would they not?---Yes, they would.
PN9505
And Mr Hutchison gave evidence about a 40-hour drug treatment program that is conducted at Loddon. You are aware of that?---Yes, he did.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9506
And Mr King gave evidence about drug awareness programs conducted at Port Phillip prison and a drug rehabilitation program spread over some 10 weeks?---He did provide that, but I am not aware of the content of the program or where any prisoner would be classified to a specific drug treatment program at Port Phillip prison.
PN9507
But his evidence was that there was a drug rehabilitation program spread over 10 weeks at that prison. That is correct?---That is correct, yes.
PN9508
Can I ask you to look at the Kirby report again, Mr Myers, page 68?---Yes.
PN9509
Do you see there under the heading 6.4, drug treatment programs?---Yes.
PN9510
Prisoner programs are the primary means by which prisoners are able to address their offending behaviours and rehabilitation goals.
PN9511
?---Yes.
PN9512
Given the significant numbers of prisoners with substance abuse problems entering the prison system, it is critical that quality drug treatment programs are implemented that provide opportunities for prisoner rehabilitation.
PN9513
Do you see that?---That is true.
PN9514
The incarceration of persons who are chronic substance abusers presents an important opportunity for treatment. At present drug treatment service providers are in a position to cast a wide therapeutic net and intervene with prisoners who ordinarily would be unlikely to seek treatment.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9515
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9516
Without treatment, they are most likely to continue their drug use and criminogenic behaviours upon release.
PN9517
?---Yes.
PN9518
It then goes on to refer to the Victorian prisons drug strategy. Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9519
The Victorian prisons drug strategy was introduced in 1992.
PN9520
That is correct?---Yes, that is true.
PN9521
Based on the principles of detection, deterrence and treatment. It is the policy framework for the management and control of drugs in prisons.
PN9522
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9523
And that is a strategy that again applies across the system?---Yes, it does.
PN9524
The VPDSs, that is:
PN9525
The Victorian prisons drug strategies' original aim was to maintain the safety and good order of the Victorian prisons system by keeping drugs out of prisons.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9526
Do you see that?---That is true.
PN9527
And the secondary goal is to manage prisoners with substance abuse difficulties consistently and apply uniform sanctions for the use of drugs in prisons.
PN9528
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9529
And there it outlines the key objectives of the drugs strategy?---Yes.
PN9530
To reduce the demand for drugs through deterrence programs, for example the application of sanctions related to an identified drug user, status for drug use, to reduce the supply of drugs through effective detection and reduce the demand for drugs through treatment initiatives.
PN9531
?---Yes.
PN9532
And at 6.4.2 you say under the heading responsibility of prison providers:
PN9533
The private prison operators must comply with the requirements and standards detailed in the Victorian prisons drug strategy and provide a range of programs and approaches for prisoners to deal with substance abuse problems.
PN9534
And it then goes on to state:
PN9535
Treatment is an essential component of the Victorian drugs strategy and it provides program opportunities for prisoners to address their offending behaviours.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9536
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9537
And that is the strategy that applies across the system?---That is true.
PN9538
And therefore that is the need for operators within the system to provide programs in accordance with that drugs strategy?---That is correct. Well, the strategy doesn't specifically state what programs are to be utilised. It just says that is one of the pillars it sits on, treatment.
PN9539
Yes, but inherent in that is that drug education and treatment courses are required to be provided?---That is right, yes.
PN9540
Yes. Now, you go on in that paragraph, Mr Myers, and I am here looking at page 4 of your statement. You say also the centre has a number of training programs provided by trained counsellors and psychologists dealing with issues such as anger management and alternatives to violence, do you see that?---Yes.
PN9541
And indeed those sorts of training programs are required to be provided system-wide through the Correctional Policy and Management Standards, that is correct, isn't it?---That is right.
PN9542
And indeed such programs are run at all of the correctional institutions in Victoria?---Yes.
PN9543
And both Mr Hutchison and Mr King gave evidence about such programs at Loddon and at Port Phillip prisons?---That is correct.
PN9544
And the same applies to the next sentence at the bottom of paragraph 6:
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9545
Finally, the centre provides life skills programs where training sessions are held on issues such as parenting skills, meditation and financial and budgetary skills.
PN9546
Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN9547
And those sorts of life skills courses are, again, effectively enshrined in the Correctional Policy and Management Standards as we have seen?---Yes.
PN9548
And those course are run system-wide again, are they not?---Yes, they are.
PN9549
And at paragraph 7 you there state:
PN9550
My predecessor used the following expression to sum up the centre's philosophy. 'We want prisoners to leave better, not bitter'.
PN9551
Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN9552
And indeed, based on our analysis of the unit management guidelines, that would be a sentiment that would apply across the Victorian system in accordance with government policy, would it not?---I guess the reason I make the statement there is that it is the first time I have ever heard a prison manager say it out loud. And I think the evidence that was led by, I think, Mr King, was that he agreed with it. So, while it is a sentiment I think it has been spoken rather than thought of a good outcome.
[11.45am]
PN9553
Well, in some respects it is the foundation of the unit management philosophy, is it not, Mr Myers?---I would agree with that.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9554
You then go on to say:
PN9555
In some ways this philosophy is particular to FCC when compared to other correctional facilities operated by ACM.
PN9556
Now, your evidence is it is not a philosophy that is particular to Fulham in respect of the Victorian correctional system. How is it particular to Fulham in respect of other facilities operated by ACM?---Because the context of my statement would suggest that Arthur Gorrie Correctional Centre is a maximum security remand reception prison where prisoners have limited time there. I guess the same would apply to Port Phillip but in relation to Arthur Gorrie it is the amount of time that prisoners would stay there where you could apply or have any sort of meaningful intervention because of, you know, sometimes the lack of time they are sent there because of the court - the movements that they go through and the fact that they are classified onto a prison when they are sentenced. And I guess it has to do with the contract that we have with government. Fulham was purpose built. It is one of the two prisons in Victoria that is a design, built, own and operate contract. Both the contracts that we have Junee and with Arthur Gorrie, the facilities were built by the government at the time and we just manage and operate those facilities in that sense.
PN9557
What operating philosophy applies at Junee and Arthur Gorrie in terms of the philosophy or prisoner rehabilitation and so forth, Mr Myers?---With Arthur Gorrie they have just gone through a review and a re-tender process where I think certain of the unit management philosophy or principles have now been included in that contract. Prior to that it was sort of limited in that sense. And June, again, in their recent re-tender they beefed up some of the program and unit management philosophies in the New South Wales system. So while there were, I think, limited principles up to a point, in the recent past, with those contracts being relet, they have included, I think, greater emphasis on unit management philosophy than was in the past.
PN9558
So whatever difference there may have been in philosophy, that difference is narrowing?---It is narrowing, yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9559
Now, the bottom of paragraph 7 you say:
PN9560
FCC has a different reporting relationship to the public prisons in Victoria and, I believe, a greater degree of control, autonomy in how it is operated.
PN9561
?---Yes.
PN9562
Are you there referring to the nature of the reporting relationship that you gave evidence about earlier, which is soon going to be subject to change?---Yes, yes.
PN9563
So you will have a direct line of reporting, so to speak, in the same way that CORE has?---Well, I think the model will be that everyone goes through the Commissioner back into the Minister, the Department of Justice rather than the two lines in two reporting - so, yes, it puts us all under one umbrella.
PN9564
Now, paragraph 8, Mr Myers, you deal with the public prison system, para 8 and following. You have not physically worked in the public prison system for approximately six years?---That is right.
PN9565
And you say in paragraph 9(a) - you say that:
PN9566
FCC shares many similarities of the facilities operated by CORE, the public correctional enterprise.
PN9567
And certainly one of those familiarities, as we have established on your evidence this morning, is the philosophy of unit management?---Yes.
PN9568
And you say there are some important differences. They include the following:
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9569
There is a stronger sentiment among prison managers in the public system that prisoners are prisoners and should be treated as such.
PN9570
Do you see that?---Mm.
PN9571
Now, that is not in accord with the operating philosophy of unit management that is in place in the Victorian correctional system today, Mr Myers, is it?---No, it is not.
PN9572
And it is not in accord with Victorian Government policy, is it, in terms of corrections?---No it wouldn't - it would appear that it is not.
PN9573
And can I take you to page 47 of the Kirby report, Mr Myers?---Yes.
PN9574
And I took you to that earlier. Do you see that quote at the bottom of that page?---Yes.
PN9575
This was a style of managing prisoners which allowed for greater interaction amongst prisoners and prison staff in order to develop a greater security and safety as well as encouraging rehabilitation through increased and better structured program participation.
PN9576
You see that?---Yes.
PN9577
And that was a submission from CORE. You see that?---Yes, I do.
PN9578
So what you say in small paragraph (a) of paragraph 9 is not reflected - certainly not reflected in that CORE submission. You agree with that?---It is not reflected in the CORE submission, yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9579
No, and it is not reflected in the operating philosophy that is in place across the Victorian correctional system today, is it?---It is not reflected - reflective of the philosophy, yes, I agree with that. I based my statement on my interactions with managers of prisons and just the personal interactions that I have had. The example that I would cite would be in discussing a move of a prisoner from Fulham to a minimum security camp and discussing that the prisoner had particular education needs and the response was, well, he is a prisoner first and we will take care of education after that. And that is what I based my statement on in relation to - and that is probably reflective of - I think it is particular people within the public prison system.
PN9580
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry. You mean the individual concerned?---The individual, yes.
PN9581
MR LAWRENCE: So you based paragraph 9(a) on one conversation you have had with one individual within the public system?---I think I said it is an example of what I have had dealings with - people in the public corrections system.
PN9582
Well, it is not in accord with the experience of Mr Hutchison, who has worked in the public sector for the last six years, Mr Myers, is it?---Well, not according to his evidence, no.
PN9583
Now, you go on to say in paragraph 9(a):
PN9584
That is, some of the liberties and responsibilities which are enjoyed by prisoners at FCC are not considered to be appropriate for prisoners because they are incarcerated.
PN9585
See that? See that? I am looking at the second sentence in small paragraph (a) of paragraph 9?---Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9586
That is, some of the liberties and responsibilities which are enjoyed by prisoners at FCC are not considered to be appropriate for prisoners because they are incarcerated.
PN9587
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9588
What liberties and responsibilities are enjoyed by prisoners at Fulham that are not enjoyed by prisoners at Loddon, Mr Myers?---My statement regarding this, I think, goes to the point in relation to prisoners - I think it is the interactions I have with prisoners, the fact that we have our prisoner committee, which I think is very open in that sense in that we invite them in relation to discussing policy issues that affect the prison. And I know evidence has been led in the past that, you know, there is prisoner committees at other prisons and I am basing my statement on my particular experience at Fulham in allowing prisoners that - I guess that voice and the liberty to express themselves openly and honestly in situations and the fact that because of that we have, I think, a very stable and safe prison to work in.
PN9589
Well, Mr Myers, you are aware of evidence given by Mr Hutchison in these proceedings that at Loddon what operates is an open door policy and that the prisoners are free to consult with the management as part of that open door policy and there are prisoner discussions and negotiations both at the unit level and at the institution level through the prisoner liaison committee. Are you aware of that?---Yes. That is what his evidence was yesterday.
PN9590
Yes. So where is the difference?---Well, I think the difference is in my particular experience and what I have dealt with in the past and, as I said, my experience goes to what I do at Fulham and not comparing it to what happens at other prisons. I am just dealing with what happens at Fulham and my experience and what I came from in the public sector.
PN9591
Well, in paragraph 9(a), Mr Myers, you are comparing what happens at other institution, are you not?---Yes, but the comparison is based on my past experience, not what my current knowledge or information is within a particular prison.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9592
I see. And that past experience is coloured by the fact that you haven't worked in the public correctional system for six years?---I guess it could be coloured by that.
PN9593
You go on to say:
PN9594
At FCC there is a much stronger emphasis upon dealing with prisoners as individuals and considering their individual issues and problems, rather than dealing with the prisoners as a collective.
PN9595
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9596
Now, again that is a reflection of the unit management philosophy, is it not, Mr Myers?---That is true.
PN9597
That is the philosophy that applies across the Victorian correctional system, as we established on your evidence earlier?---That is true. That is correct.
PN9598
And, indeed, that is precisely the philosophy that applies at both Loddon and applies at Port Phillip Prison, as was the evidence given by Mr Hutchison and Mr King?---That was the evidence, yes.
PN9599
And at all of the institutions across the system we have individual management plans in operation for individual prisoners; that is correct?---That is correct.
PN9600
And at Loddon you will recall, as I stated earlier, the evidence of Mr Hutchison was that there is an open door policy in operation at that institution?---That was the evidence that was given, yes.
PN9601
Now can I take you to paragraph (b) on page 6. You see the third line starts:
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9602
For example, I know that at Barwon, a public prison, prisoners can only access up to two hours educational services per week.
PN9603
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9604
If that was the case, that would be in breach of the correctional policy and management standards, would it not?---Yes.
PN9605
Which requires that four hours be provided?---Yes, that is what the standards call for, yes.
PN9606
Well, how do you know it is two hours, Mr Myers?---Well, my work in the review before I left public corrections, that was the standard that was applied to prisoners at Barwon.
PN9607
So that was six or seven years ago?---Yes.
PN9608
So what is the position today?---I am not aware of what the position is today.
PN9609
Well, you don't say that in your statement, do you?---No, I don't.
PN9610
And you say:
PN9611
Compared to prisoners in the public system, the prisoners at FCC are provided with a much higher degree of service in terms of education assistance, life skills and so forth as outlined above.
PN9612
See that?---Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9613
Now, education, life skills programs and so on, as we have established, are provided across the system?---Yes, they are.
PN9614
That is correct?---Yes.
PN9615
And it is simply not correct to state that in terms of that system wide provision, Mr Myers, which is inherent in the standards that apply system wide, that "the prisoners at FCC are provided with a much higher degree of service in terms of education assistance, life skills and so forth"?---No, I disagree and I disagree because of the relationship that we have established with the TAFE college in the provision of our education services is a combination of enrolling them in education in our work processes as well. The traditional approach has always been one of, I guess, a tug of war of having prisoners in an education class or having prisoners in an industry setting, whereas Fulham's approach has been to enter a partnership with the TAFE provider where the teachers are also supervising in our industries. So when a prisoner is enrolled in the construction course or a fitout and finish course, he is also working in the industry. So he is not only learning but gaining the skills and then also he is able to apply in a practical way the skills he learns there and thus, in that element of competency based training he is able to, I think, obtain quicker or more easily the certification that he needs or gets from the TAFE college. I think - that is, I think, a significant difference from what happens in the public sector as what happens at Fulham in relation to the provision of education and training.
PN9616
We have seen that there are numerous partnerships within the system, Mr Myers, between prisons, both public and private, and TAFE providers in terms of the provision of vocational education and training at the particular institutions. That is correct, isn't it?---That is correct.
PN9617
And within that service provision, educational courses are provided, for which TAFE certificates are granted?---That is true.
PN9618
And the evidence of both Mr King and Mr Hutchison was that there is a very broad range of programs, courses and so forth provided at their particular institutions?---Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9619
Indeed, the evidence of Mr Hutchison was that they have a number of prisoners who are undertaking university education?---That is correct, and that is voluntary.
PN9620
So the course provision, generally speaking and in terms of the partnerships, in terms of the range of programs provided there would seem to be, in actual fact, little difference, Mr Myers?---I wouldn't agree with that in that sense, especially in ensuring that we have - at Fulham it is important to make sure that all of our prisoners are provided with all of those opportunities in a timely fashion. The waiting list that we might have may be two or three weeks, whereas at Loddon it may be 10 or 20 weeks before a prisoner can get involved in one of those programs. And I think that goes to some of the major differences that exist in the delivery of those programs or the availability of those programs.
PN9621
What about the issue of time available, Mr Myers? Mr Hutchison gave evidence that in terms of the provision of education, it is, in effect, more like nearly a day a week as opposed to four hours a week at Loddon?---I can't comment on what is available at Loddon. I don't know that and my information is based on the recent review that was conducted and my discussions with my TAFE campus manager at Fulham in relation to how Fulham performs compared with the rest of the system as such.
PN9622
Well, the evidence of Mr Hutchison on this matter was not subject to challenge, Mr Myers, and that was that educational provision is provided which is in the order of one day a week at Loddon?---Well, I believe his evidence was that it is a half day a week and they are trying to get one day a week going. They are waiting for teachers to come on board. So - but as, again - I can't make a comment on the particular education regime that exists at Loddon, only on the basis of my advice.
PN9623
Well, you have made a comment on it, Mr Myers?---I have.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9624
And the evidence of Mr Hutchison was that it can't quite be a full day a week, I think because the issue of teachers' lunch hours was involved, but it is almost a full day a week. Now, as I said, that evidence was unchallenged. If that evidence is accepted and there is provision of nearly a day a week for prisoners at Loddon and four hours at Fulham, does that still mean Fulham provides a much higher degree of service in terms of education?---I think if you look at the delivery of our student contact hours, which exceeds 130,000 per annum, and the fact that Loddon would be servicing a prisoner population of around 300, I believe that we do provide a larger range and greater educational services to prisoners.
PN9625
But you don't know precisely what is provided at Loddon, do you?---No, I do not.
PN9626
So if you don't know precisely what is provided at Loddon and elsewhere, how do you say that compared to prisoners in the public system the prisoners at Fulham are provided with a much higher degree of service in terms of education?---Well, I base it on the information that I have and the advice I get in relation to the waiting lists that occur within the public system and the fact that the timetabling of courses at Loddon is difficult and does not allow for a large number of prisoners to be involved in educational courses.
PN9627
But that may not be the same - even if one accepts that, Mr Myers, that may not be the same elsewhere. At another public correctional facility that may be a different situation. You don't know?---Well, I don't have all of the public system's information in front of me but that is the information that I have in regards to why it is difficult for prisoners to get into educational programs at Loddon because of the waiting lists and the fact that they don't timetable well. That is my information.
PN9628
All right. So you don't know what the educational provision is at other public sector institutions?---I don't know.
PN9629
Now, at paragraph (c) you state:
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9630
The day to day life of prisoners within public prisons is more regulated and controlled by prison management in the public system than is the case at Fulham.
PN9631
See that?---Mm.
PN9632
And you are aware of the evidence of Mr Hutchison in respect of Loddon that it is an open plan prison, prisoners are free to go wherever they do. So on that basis, in what ways is the day to day life of prisoners more regulated and controlled at Loddon than at Fulham?---Again I base it on my experience that I had in the public system and what I know at Fulham at the moment and I guess my experience was is that if prisoners wanted to move between units or go somewhere they had to get movement passes and things like that. Evidence was led from Mr Hutchison that that isn't the case at Loddon and I guess in that sense I am willing to concede the point in relation to the open plan that Loddon was and how it operates and it occurs with what happens at Fulham. My statement may be incorrect.
PN9633
Indeed, Loddon is not the only open plan public prison in Victoria, is it, Mr Myers?---I am not aware of any other medium security prison that has open plan that is built such as Loddon.
PN9634
All right. So that statement is incorrect, as you concede. You say:
PN9635
There is less of an emphasis in the public system on prisoners assuming responsibility and control of aspects of their everyday life.
PN9636
See that next point?---Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9637
Well, how does that differ from the position that prevails at Loddon on the basis of the evidence given by Mr Hutchison?---Well, there again, in my experience and my particular opinion I believe that that is the case, I guess, based on my knowledge. It may be six years old but that was my experience and I haven't drawn a comparison in this particular paragraph of my statement with any particular prison. My experience in working within it would suggest that there is a certain amount of controls that are placed on prisoners' lives and activities that isn't the case at Fulham.
PN9638
Well, that was experience - that is based on experience six years ago, Mr Myers?---Mm.
PN9639
Yes. And when you visited - I withdraw that. Now - so that is what that is based on, your experience in the public system six years ago. That is what you base that statement on?---That was my experience then, yes.
PN9640
And you can't take this Commission to one example where there is less of an emphasis in the public system as it operates on Loddon on prisoners assuming responsibility and control of aspects of their everyday life, as opposed to Fulham?---Could you repeat that question?
PN9641
You can't take this Commission to one example, in comparing Loddon and Fulham, where there is less emphasis at Loddon on prisoners assuming responsibility and control of aspects of their everyday life, as opposed to Fulham?---I - not in the freedom or the ability that they have to move around their prison, I couldn't at this juncture, your Honour.
PN9642
And prisoners at Fulham have an ID card, Mr Myers?---Yes, they do.
PN9643
And has that got to be picked up from the officer on the unit before those prisoners move off the unit?---That is our policy, yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9644
And that officer has got to phone ahead to alert the destination point that that prisoner is on his way?---I don't believe that that is the case. It may be in the policy but I know if it is the practice.
PN9645
And your statement - your further statement in that subparagraph that this is reflected - and this again relates to your statement about less emphasis in the public system on prisoners assuming responsibility and control of aspects of their lives:
PN9646
This is reflected in a management structure within the public system which is, I believe, much more hierarchical and rank conscious than in the case of FCC.
PN9647
You see that?---Yes.
PN9648
And that is again based on your experience in the public system some six years ago?---Well, I think even currently of what happens in the public system it is hierarchical and it is rank structured. That is my experience. That is my knowledge.
PN9649
And you have grades of positions at Fulham, do you not: unit manager - - -?---We have unit manager.
PN9650
- - - correctional supervisor?---Yes, we do.
PN9651
Correctional officer?---Yes.
PN9652
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do they wear any insignia to reflect their rank or their different grade?---No, they do not. No, they do not.
[12.15pm]
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9653
MR LAWRENCE: Now can I take you to paragraph 10 of your statement, Mr Myers? You said in your evidence yesterday that Fulham has been gazetted as a medium minimum security prison. That is correct?---Yes.
PN9654
In practice, Mr Myers, Fulham operates as a medium minimum security in the same way that Loddon operates as a medium minimum security prison, does it not?---No, because Loddon is gazetted as a medium security prison, not medium minimum security.
PN9655
It has contained within in medium and minimum prisoners, does it not?---Yes, it does.
PN9656
And Fulham has contained within it medium and minimum prisoners, does it not?---That is correct.
PN9657
Now can I take you to paragraph 11 of your statement where you there set out the major areas and accommodation units of FCC. Do you see that?---Yes, yes.
PN9658
And you refer to the Strzelecki Accommodation Unit?---Yes.
PN9659
And that is regarded as the cottages area?---That is right.
PN9660
And you say that houses 100 minimum security prisoners?---That is right.
PN9661
And you refer to the Baw Baw Unit?---Yes.
PN9662
Which is what in terms of an L, Mr Myers?---I believe that is L10.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9663
L10. And you say approximately 132 prisoners are accommodated there?---Currently, yes.
PN9664
Currently 132 prisoners?---Yes.
PN9665
The Ensa Unit, which is L7, and that houses approximately 132 prisoners?---Yes, that does.
PN9666
And currently there is approximately 132 prisoners there?---There wouldn't be 132 prisoners there at the moment.
PN9667
And the Bulla Unit, it houses approximately 125 prisoners?---Yes, it does.
PN9668
And the Fulham Unit is L?---That would be L4, a reception unit.
PN9669
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: L?---L4.
PN9670
MR LAWRENCE: And the Jururulang Unit, and then you deal with the Hotham Unit. Now in paragraph b you use the term, "It houses 100 minimum security prisoners." Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9671
And in D approximately 132 prisoners. See that, the Baw Baw Unit?---In D, yes, yes.
PN9672
And I want to suggest to you that that - you use the term "houses" because that is generally, for example, what that unit would tend to run it?---That would be correct, yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9673
Now because in relation to the Hotham Protection Unit at H you see, you there use the words, "This unit houses up to 110"?---Yes.
PN9674
Now, Mr Myers, I am going to ask you about the process that led to the introduction of double ups at Fulham, and at paragraph 13 of your statement:
PN9675
The first lot of double ups we produced in September 1999.
PN9676
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9677
Now what was the process that - what was the process that led to that, Mr Myers? Were you approached by the government prior to that time?---We were approached by government in relation to seeking to accommodate additional prisoners in an over capacity situation, in emergency over capacity situation.
PN9678
And you entered into discussions with the government about that, I take it?---Yes, we did.
PN9679
And as a result of those discussions I take it you agreed to take an additional 60 prisoners?---Yes, that was the result of the discussions.
PN9680
And that prisoner intake occurred in September 1999?---Yes.
PN9681
Now the increase that you refer to in April 2002, do I take that to be an increase associated with the Erica Unit coming into operation?---That is correct, yes.
PN9682
Now on the basis of - on the basis of an additional 60 prisoners coming into Fulham, I think your evidence yesterday was that 40 of those prisoners went into the mainstream units and 20 went into the protection unit. Is that correct?---That is correct, yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9683
So on the basis of an additional 60 prisoners coming into the centre you allocated one extra officer per unit. That is correct, isn't it?---We allocated an extra officer to the L7 and L10 units in mainstream where those initial prisoners were accommodated. There wasn't any additional staff put into the Hotham Unit at that stage.
PN9684
Okay. At that stage?---Yes.
PN9685
So you put an extra 20 prisoners into the Hotham Unit at that stage without any increase in staff?---That is correct.
PN9686
Right. And that the correctional staff in the Hotham Unit, it was then their responsibility to undertake the workload in respect of 20 additional prisoners without any increase in staff?---The initial muster of population in the Hotham Unit was 80 and that - the staffing complement in the Hotham Unit covering 80 prisoners was the same as what was occurring in the mainstream units which housed or could house up to 102 or 105 prisoners and a management decision was taken to not increase that staffing at that stage as we felt there would be sufficient people to take that workload.
PN9687
I see. So there was an extra officer provided to the two mainstream units you mentioned for the intake of double ups at that stage?---That is correct.
PN9688
Okay. And that was considered by management to be an appropriate staffing increase to cope with the influx of an additional prisoners?---That was the analysis that we came to.
PN9689
And in relation to the two units that you referred to where there was an extra staff member, how many extra prisoners went into those two units? Do I take it from that that 20 prisoners went into each of those two units?---There was 20 beds went into the units and we had a build up of additional prisoners from that point, so whether it was 20 prisoners on the one day or 20 prisoners over the month, there was that increase.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9690
And that was in units L?---L7 and L10.
PN9691
And the increase in staff in relation to the Eric Unit operation in April 2002?---Yes.
PN9692
Was nine operational staff?---Yes.
PN9693
For a unit of 52 persons as the drug treatment unit?---Yes, and in saying nine operational staff the staffing complement that we established for the 52 bed unit was that we have a correctional manager who worked five days a week, we have a correctional supervisor that does a 12 hour, seven day roster for seven day coverage for 12 hours, and two correctional officers who work a 12 hour, seven day rostered rotating shift. Our particular full-time equivalent to cover a position on 12 hour shift is 2.38, so for every position we have we require 2.38 people to cover the roster.
PN9694
And is it true, Mr Myers, that the nine operational staff that went into the Erica Unit certainly initially were drawn from staff already within Fulham who had expressed an interest into going into that unit?---Initially that is where we drew the staff from, from our initial or existing staffing pool.
PN9695
And to the extent that nine positions were created, those positions were short term 12 month contract positions, at least initially?---They are of a fixed term nature because the building is temporary and the funding therefore is associated with the building and those prisoners being there.
PN9696
Was the building initially planned to be another double up facility, Mr Myers?---Not to my knowledge, no. The government in the Commissioner's Office took the decision that there was enough double ups throughout the system. They did not want to have additional people doubled up in cells and that is when they made the decision to commission the building of the demountable buildings to ease the, I guess the pressure on numbers within the system and that is why they implemented it there.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9697
Now there was subsequently two further lots of double up which are sandwiched in between, Mr Myers, between September 1999 and April 2002?---Yes.
PN9698
And that totalled 75 prisoners?---Yes.
PN9699
And in response to that, on your evidence I take it, the centre provided two extra Sierras. Is that right?---In relation to the second and the third double ups the review that we conducted established - well, we put the double ups in all of our mainstream units and I think ten additional beds in the Hotham Protection Unit, and in relation to those particular double ups we resourced and had funded through government additional staffing which would allow an additional staff member to be placed in L1, in L4 and in the Hotham Protection Unit, and that is on a seven day, 12 hour shift rotating basis, plus the two additional security or Sierras for internal security.
PN9700
And did any of the 75 prisoners that were part of the second and third intake go into L7 and L10?---I believe we put a couple of extra beds in L7 and L10. I believe we did, yes.
PN9701
But no increase in staffing as a result of that?---No increase in staffing, no.
PN9702
Now if you look at the L7 you accept the fact, Mr Myers, that correctional staff, including officers and supervisors operate under a statutory duty of care, don't you?---Yes, I do.
PN9703
And the evidence of Mr De Moel and Mr Shorter, indeed evidence that has been confirmed by your earlier statement in relation to L7 that it houses 132 prisoners. That is its capacity, is it not, 132?---That is its capacity.
PN9704
Yes. So there has been an increase in the capacity of that unit, indeed an increase in the prison population in that unit taking it as an example from 100 to 132?---It is about 102 to 132.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9705
Yes. So that is about a 29 per cent increase in prisoner numbers in that unit?---Yes.
PN9706
And the staffing increase in that unit is one additional officer working from 9.30 am to 9.30 pm?---Yes.
PN9707
And that represents about a 16.6 per cent increase on the staffing that was previously there. Would you agree with that?---I would agree with that, yes.
PN9708
And would you therefore agree with me that you have officers now required to effectively control, supervise and manage a greater number of prisoners within that unit per head?---I wouldn't agree with that statement at all.
PN9709
And why is that?---Because we have never had a situation where we have had a staffing ratio of staff to prisoner ratio. It has just never existed. I believe that my staff are well trained and are able to meet the challenges that come up to them and that they are flexible and able to do the job that is required of them.
PN9710
Well, if you accept that the staffing ratio - I am aware of your view about ratios. If you accept for the purposes of what I am going to put to you, that the previous ratio of 102 to six officers represented a prisoner to officer ratio of 17. Do you agree with that?---Well, again, Mr Lawrence, I wouldn't accept, even in a hypothetical, that I would accept a ratio of prison officers to prisoners. The prisoners increased, I agree with that, but I don't agree that there was an increase in workload because we put additional prisoners in the unit.
PN9711
Well, each officer in the unit, if you look at it on the ratio basis, Mr Myers, is now responsible, as opposed to one in 17 to close to now one in 19 or 18.8?---Okay, I will accept that.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9712
You would accept that and you would accept, would you not, that in respect of each officer in that unit in terms of the increased prisoner numbers, that means a broadening of the scope of their duty of care in respect of those prisoners within that unit?---I guess it would broaden their duty of care because they are taking care of an additional one prisoner, yes.
PN9713
Well, on a ratio basis they are taking care of almost an additional two prisoners?---Additional two prisoners? Well, there is an additional two prisoners that they have under their care and control, yes.
PN9714
And at the more general level there is an increased responsibility for each officer in the prison in terms of a general duty of care given that there has been the increase in the prisoner numbers that there has and I am here talking about the general duty of control, supervision and management within the prison itself?---I wouldn't agree with that because our operating, I guess, policy and our procedures are still the same. There is still the same responses to any sort of emergency, so I wouldn't agree that the overall duty of care has become more onerous. I would agree that there is more prisoners to look after.
PN9715
So in that respect the duty of care has been broadened?---I wouldn't agree with the statement that the duty of care has been broadened, no, I wouldn't.
PN9716
Well, you did agree with the statement that the duty of care has been broadened at the unit level in the move from a one to 17 ratio to a move to nearly one to 19, two extra prisoners?---Well, I agreed that there is two additional prisoners that officers have to look after in that context.
PN9717
And their duty of care is broader in that context?---Well, again in the context of two additional prisoners it is a matter of mathematics as far as I am concerned. You know, if you add two to 17 it becomes 19. There is more people there. I don't believe that the duty of care has increased in that sense, only that they are looking after more prisoners.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9718
Well, the duty of care extends to 20 prisoners rather than 10 you are under a broader duty of care, are you not?---Well, I guess it all depends on what the duty of care is going to be. We haven't changed, as I said, the operating philosophy or the procedures that govern staff's response to emergencies or anything like that and that is why I don't agree that the duty of care is broader in that sense. I don't see where their task has been made more onerous because of that.
PN9719
I am not talking about the task, Mr Myers, I am talking about the duty of care that is now owed at the unit level to a larger number of prisoners?---Well, I wouldn't agree with it because we instituted the additional staff members to help compensate or to help cater for those needs or that duty of care that exists there, so in saying we added more prisoners, we also added an additional resource in staff members, so I don't agree that it has been broadened because we put in additional resources to handle and cater for the need.
PN9720
Well, it has been broadened, Mr Myers, has it not, with an increase in the ratio of one to 17 to nearly one to 19?---Well, in putting in additional prisoners, and I have said it before, we also put in additional staff resources to help cater for the need that is there.
PN9721
I am looking here at the unit level?---Yes, I am talking about the unit level.
PN9722
One to 17 to one to 19. One to 17 with six officers, one to 19 with seven?---Yes, and that is the resource we added. When we increased our numbers, we increased the number of officers.
PN9723
And you would agree with me, would you not, that the bulk of the work associated with prisoners on a day to day basis in terms of the control, management and supervision occurs at the unit level, for example, that is where the case workers are based?---That is where the case workers are based, yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9724
Yes. And that is where the majority of the work in terms of the day to day control, supervision and management of the business occurs?---I think in the operation of Fulham, I mean, it starts there and then prisoners go to work and go to their education, go to their programs or go and do their recreation, so it may start there and it may finish there at the end of the day, but throughout the day the focus doesn't remain on the units or in the units, but the focus is spread across a number of areas within the prison.
PN9725
Right. But for those prisoners who are involved in those programs the unit is where they leave and the unit is where they return to?---That is correct.
PN9726
And the unit is where things such as cell searches are conducted?---That is right.
PN9727
At the unit level?---That is correct.
PN9728
And at the unit level is where the process of urinalysis is undertaken, save and except for the random generals which we will come to?---That is correct.
PN9729
And at the unit level is where you have the overwhelming majority of strip searches conducted?---I wouldn't agree with that totally in the context of strip searches after visits are conducted in that strip search area for visits, where a vast number of strip searches occur, as well as in the reception store, but strip searching does occur on the units, yes.
PN9730
And it is the correctional staff that undertake these strip searches as we know in respect of the visits?---That is correct.
PN9731
Now, I want to take you to exhibit JRM2, Mr Myers. Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9732
How is the FTE calculated, Mr Myers?---The full-time - or the FTE which is our full-time equivalent is calculated using the number of days the staff works and then also is a calculation regarding their annual leave credits, their sick leave credits and the training time that is required for an officer.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9733
What are those calculations?---I couldn't tell you right now off the top of my head. I am not sure how we calculated it. I have done it, I can't tell you how it is done.
PN9734
All right. You can get that information for us?---I am really sure I could do that, yes.
PN9735
We will revisit that after lunch. You say in your statement, Mr Myers, that there has been approximately - and I am here referring to paragraph 15, approximately a 30 per cent increase in prisoner numbers?---Yes.
PN9736
Since the centre opened, see that?---Yes.
PN9737
And you say in JRM2 that there has been a 21.4 per cent increase. See that?---Yes.
PN9738
And you will provide us with those calculations, hopefully, after the luncheon adjournment?---Just to clarify that question, that is 21.4 per cent increase in operations staff, is that what you are - - -
PN9739
Yes?---Yes.
PN9740
Now, in paragraph 15B you make reference to other staff members. Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9741
(i)?---Yes.
PN9742
An additional two full-time recreational specialists were employed by the centre.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9743
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9744
Now, do those full-time, both of those full-time recreational specialists, both work at the same time, Mr Myers?---I am not sure if they work at the same time. We have one that works on weekends and one who comes in and assists with the other rec specialists that are there.
PN9745
So they may not be on duty both at the same time?---No, not at the same time.
PN9746
And they are not responsible for the control, management and supervision of prisoners, are they?---No, not as such. But they are considered as officers within the meaning of the Act.
PN9747
Yes, but they are not responsible for the control, management and supervision of the prisoners?---No, not at all.
PN9748
And they quite obviously don't undertake work in the units such as cell searches, do they?---No, they don't.
PN9749
And you refer at (ii) to an additional three - time nurses and one part-time nurse. Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9750
And do all of those four nurses work at the one time?---No, they don't.
PN9751
So not all of them are on shift at the one time?---No.
PN9752
And quite obviously they are not responsible for the control, management and supervision of prisoners either, are they?---No, they do not.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9753
And again, quite obviously they don't undertake work in the unit such as cell searches, do they?---No, they don't.
PN9754
You refer to in (iii) two full-time counsellors. Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9755
Now, are they both working at the same time, Mr Myers?---Yes, they do.
PN9756
They do?---Yes.
PN9757
Both on shift together?---They both work Monday to Friday in the centre, yes.
PN9758
And what hours do they work?---Depending on the program, but it is usually 8.00 to 4.00, or it could be 9.00 to 5.00, depending what the program need is.
PN9759
And is that the same for counsellors generally within the centre?---Yes, generally, yes.
PN9760
And counsellors don't generally work on weekends at the centre?---No. No, they don't.
PN9761
So if you have got a prisoner who has got a pressing personal problem after 5.00 in the afternoon on a weekday, or at the weekends the first port of call for that prisoner will generally be the prisoner's case officer. Is that correct?---That would be - that would be the port of call, yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9762
And the case officer may well then have to deal with that situation, depending on the pressing nature of it, at that time. It is not possible to refer that person to a counsellor at a later time?---Well, depending on what the need is. If it has anything to do with self-harm or suicide they are taken directly to the medical centre which is staffed 24 hours a day by the registered nurse and placed in the high risk team. If there is an issue in relation to family concerns or issues like that the centre has the shift manager on duty who can assist the officer in relation to organising or allowing emergency phone calls. The officer has a supervisor in his unit at that time that he can get assistance for to help assist with any needs that the prisoner might have, and we do have an ability to call back in our psychologist to assist if there is an urgent and pressing need.
PN9763
But you would agree with me, would you not, that there is likely to be numerous occasions when those particular needs may be sorted out and dealt with by the case officer at first instance. ?---And I suppose if they are, then the need wouldn't be urgent or require some sort of high level intervention and it would be part of the duties that officers conduct and take care of in their daily work or duties.
PN9764
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that a convenient time, Mr Lawrence?
PN9765
MR LAWRENCE: Yes, your Honour.
PN9766
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: 2.15.
LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.47pm]
RESUMED [2.21pm]
PN9767
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you, Mr Lawrence.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9768
MR LAWRENCE: Thank you, your Honour.
PN9769
Mr Myers, you were going to get some calculations for me?---Yes.
PN9770
Do you have those?---I have tried to ascertain them as best to my ability. The calculations for my FTE sit in my budget papers, but what I can do is explain to your Honour in the room here how it works. To calculate our FTE, we take the available time in the year, which is 365 days times 12. We then take away from that number the rostered days off, the sick leave, annual leave component, bereavement leave component and training hours that we deliver to our correctional officers which gives us a number which is termed the unavailable time available, which is about 1800. The 365 times 12 number comes to about 4300-odd. We divide that by the 1800 and it gives you a relief factor of 2.38, so in order for us to - - -
PN9771
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: 2.38?---2.38, so in order for us to roster one position, we require 2.38 staff members.
PN9772
MR LAWRENCE: So in order to roster for a shift, one staff member?---Yes.
PN9773
You require 2.38?---Individuals, yes.
PN9774
And how are the calculations in relation to - what is the figures used to calculate the sick leave component, for example, that is taken away?---If the sick leave component is taken away?
PN9775
Well, in terms of what amount is allowable for the sick leave in a calculation?---That is the amount that sits in the officer's EBA, the agreement, so the total of 96 hours, that sits in our agreement and that is what sits in our FTE factor, 84 hours plus the 12 additional hours that was agreed to in the agreement.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9776
Yes, and the RDOs, what is the calculation in relation to those?---I am not really sure how they calculate the RDOs out, but I guess in number terms, it would be the number of days that a correctional officer doesn't work in the year, which is probably around 180 times 12. That is the shifts.
PN9777
And the bereavement leave, again is that in accordance with the certified agreement?---No, the bereavement leave in our budget calculations is approximately four hours.
PN9778
Per officer, per year?---Yes.
PN9779
And annual leave is taken into that calculation?---Annual leave, yes, about 210 hours is what the EBA says.
PN9780
Thank you, Mr Myers. Now, I want to take you back to the issue of double-ups, Mr Myers, and I want you to clarify for me, if you will, in relation to each tranche of double-ups, what you say was the distribution of prisoners within the centre, so in September 1999 there was an intake of 60?---That is correct, 20 of those prisoners went into the protection unit and 40 went to the mainstream area and to the best of my recollection, those prisoners went into the - L7 and L10 was the bulk of them. There may have been a couple I think have maybe gone into our L4, the reception unit, but I am not 100 per cent sure on that.
PN9781
You are not 100 per cent sure on that?---No, not on that particular tranche.
PN9782
So you are not sure exactly how many went in to L7, L10 and L4?---No, the bulk of them went into L7 and L10 and that is my recollection. I don't have my paperwork in front of me that says this is where these guys went. I just can't recall that.
PN9783
And you can obtain that material overnight?---Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9784
And what was the increase in staffing in respect of that first 60? Your earlier evidence was there was an additional officer in L7 and L10, is that right?---To the best of my recollection and not having my budget papers or my calculations in front of me, we did bring on the two additional staff in the units which would equate to I guess 4.38 or 4.76 in relation to the FTE that we brought on board.
PN9785
And do you say that was one additional officer for L10 and one additional officer for L7?---That is what I am saying, yes.
PN9786
What about in relation to the second lot of double-ups in March 2001 which amounted to 50 prisoners? Where did they go?---The second tranches, it was an additional 50 beds, increased numbers - I think we increased all the numbers in L1 and L4 and some additional beds in L7 and L10.
PN9787
But you are not sure by what amount in relation to L4, L1, L7 or L10?---I believe in L7 and L10, there may have been an additional five beds and we put the bulk of that particular tranche in L4 and we put some additional ones in L1, which is the drug treatment unit. We tried not to put prisoners in those beds because the drug treatment was there at that time and I am not really sure which of those tranches was the additional 10 beds into protection. I would have to look at my budget papers or my operations papers on that.
PN9788
All right, so in relation to the second lot of double-ups, there was increased numbers in L1 and L4?---And L4, yes.
PN9789
And additional beds in L7 and L10?---Yes.
PN9790
You are not sure at this stage how much, but you can find out?---Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9791
And in relation to the third which was 25 prisoners?---Which was 25 prisoners, the additional 25, we bulked up the L1 unit and the L4 unit I believe, but as I said, 10 of those beds in that second and third one went into the protection unit. I would have to find out from our distribution which that was and with the additional 25, we brought on our two additional Sierra security officers. I can't recall the other correctional officer component in that one. I would have to check my papers.
PN9792
Is that when the additional officer was added to L4 and L1, at the same time?---That was after the second 50. The officers were - I put it into L1 and L4.
PN9793
And the final lot concerned, as we know, the Erica unit?---That is correct.
PN9794
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What was it with the last tranche? Two additional security officers. What else?---Two additional security officers, but I would have to look at my papers to see what other additional correctional staff was brought on with that particular tranche.
PN9795
MR LAWRENCE: That was in relation to the third tranche?---Yes.
PN9796
And you can get the details of what prisoners went where and when additional officers were actually brought on at what times in respect of which particular tranche?---Yes, I believe I can do that, yes.
PN9797
Yes, all right. Now, can I take you to paragraph 16 of your statement, Mr Myers? Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9798
Now, at paragraph 16, the first line, you say:
PN9799
While there may have been a devolution of duties and responsibilities -
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9800
do you see that from management to correctional supervisors?---Yes.
PN9801
Paragraph 17, in line 6 you say:
PN9802
While there was a devolution of responsibilities from area managers to correctional supervisors -
PN9803
Now, which statement is correct?---Well, I believe both are correct in the sense that one describes what took place and the other one again describes what took place in I guess my personal opinion of the work load that was there.
PN9804
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't think they are necessarily inconsistent, are they? I mean, to say there may have been a devolution is just an acknowledgment that there was basically.
PN9805
MR LAWRENCE: Well, it casts some doubt on whether there was or what there may have been.
PN9806
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. I think you can read it, though, as saying while there may have been that devolution, it was reversed in any event in January 2000.
PN9807
MR LAWRENCE: But then there is a firm statement in paragraph 17 that there was such a devolution, your Honour. I was just seeking to clarify.
PN9808
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Is that right, Mr Myers? You are saying they are not inconsistent, that in paragraph 16 you do acknowledge that there was a devolution?---Well, I am saying that we did establish a particular management structure and had the supervisors doing some additional work in that sense, but then that was quickly overturned and while that did occur, I am saying that the additional responsibilities did not create a significant or onerous impact on the supervisors in the unit.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9809
Yes, but what I want to clarify is whether in paragraph 16 you admit or you concede that there was a devolution?---Mm.
PN9810
Is that right?---Yes.
PN9811
MR LAWRENCE: All right, and what were the duties and functions that were devolved to supervisors, Mr Myers?---My recollection of the duties that may have been devolved were in the lines of taking on I guess some additional duties relating to taking of processing requests, information requests that prisoners had. I guess being the first point of contact in the unit, if the unit manager happened to be in the other unit that they were managing, just the fact that they were there and they needed to be that first point of contact which I guess was their duty or responsibility, anyway, that if there was any issues or problems or things that they could not do or didn't have the wherewith to do, that the area manager was available and could attend and assist or take care of those duties or other responsibilities.
PN9812
Do you say, Mr Myers, that prior to devolution taking place, that it was - that supervisors were required as part of their duties to make entries and amend items on the PIMS, PDS and ITAS system?---In relation to the PIMS system, the only - I guess the only items that you enter on is incident reporting, so you would enter an incident. I am not aware how many of our supervisors had access to the incident reporting system at that time. In relation to ITAS, the only information that was - well, supervisors didn't input that into ITAS, only probably unit change information, if that was there, but that was part of the responsibilities in PDS, anyway, or to gather that data, make sure it got put to records, so they could do it as well. In PDS, the situation there was again the management or entering data in relation to incidents that occurred and the prisoners' location form work, that sat within that system which has always been part of that responsibility in the unit, as I understood it at the time.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9813
So let me clarify that. Are you saying that it has always been the responsibility of supervisors at Fulham and formally part of their duties to make entries where appropriate or amend data on the PIMS system?---Well, as I said, I am not sure how many people had access at that time. Supervisors had access to the PIMS system or the incident screens, but the only data that would have been put on the PIMS system would have been the recording of an incident. No other information is put on in relation to incidents, save maybe some alterations to visitors and that would be to put on a prisoner's visitor and as I said, I am not aware what the access was and I guess we had discussions with our supervisors and our staff there and there was a direct request from a number of our supervisors to have their PIMS access increased, which allowed them to I guess more actively be engaged in their work and take on some of those other duties, as it were, to assist prisoners, to ensure that their valid visitors' lists were up to date, so from my perspective and from what I recollect in that is that we responded to the requests of our supervisors and our managers in trying to help the centre operate better.
PN9814
Can the witness be shown ACM18, please, which is the statement of Mr Senior. That is Mr Senior's statement has been filed in these proceedings, Mr Myers?---Yes.
PN9815
And you will see at paragraph 18, Mr Senior says in the second line that:
PN9816
Supervisors enter data on PIMS and PDS.
PN9817
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9818
And the statement of Ms Barbour filed in these proceedings also goes to the fact that correctional supervisors and managers are responsible for recording details, for example, prisoner movements on PIMS?---Yes.
PN9819
And do you say that function of correctional supervisors and Ms Barbour also says at paragraph 10 that correctional supervisors and managers are responsible for updating information on PIMS and PDS?---Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9820
Do you say that has always been part of the responsibility of correctional supervisors at Fulham?---I say it is and I say that based on the fact that the PDS system has always been in existence and one of the I guess databases that exists in PDS was where prisoners lived, accommodation database and that has to be maintained. In relation to the PIMS system, we had a slower start-up for the PIMS system because it was the Commissioner's system and they had an expectation that we would train staff at commencement so that they had I guess some comfort knowing that people wouldn't be going in there and upsetting the data that was there or having access where they didn't belong and we have maintained that particular standard throughout our operating period, but they have been working within those databases and those systems since we started.
PN9821
And they have been making entries to and amending matters on those systems since you started, you say, and that has been a formal part of their duties?---In relation to amending data - I will say that again. Within PIMS, the data entered is incident reporting and amending visitors' information and I guess at the same time that we made the changes in area management in Fulham, the Commissioner's office requested that we implement and manage or run the IMP file tracking system that sits in the PIMS system which is the movement of the IMP file into the prison and then to the various units where a prisoner may be assigned or transferred through his stay at Fulham, so that is the only other I guess sort of process or increase that I noted in relation to the supervisors and the work they did with PIMS. It was akin to the information or the work that they were doing with the PDS system.
PN9822
I see, and you say that they have always been required to, for example, make changes to the PDS system in relation to prisoner movements, for example?---Well, as I said, my recollection at the time was that they operated and maintained the PDS system in relation to the prisoners in their units, and also provided date and information to the records office to make sure that the system was maintained in that manner as well. So every day they would send down their list of prisoners and where they were and who had moved. So they had that - that data could be double-checked and made sure that was right across the centre.
PN9823
Could the witness be shown exhibit ACM19, please, the statement of Mr Ward.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9824
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Has he finished with that one?
PN9825
MR LAWRENCE: No, that could remain with him for the moment.
PN9826
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: ACM19, was it?
PN9827
MR LAWRENCE: 19, yes. Can I take you to paragraph 15 of that statement, Mr Myers; do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN9828
Mr Ward says:
PN9829
The use and maintenance of computerised systems within FCC remains the responsibility of unit managers.
PN9830
Do you see that?---Mm.
PN9831
However, correctional supervisors and correctional officers have been given the opportunity to not only enhance their understanding of the report and requirements with FCC but to acquire and develop their computer skills in using these systems. In my experience, most correctional supervisors and correctional officers have volunteered to learn how to use the computer programs and have welcomed these opportunities as they see them as enhancing their employability in the future.
PN9832
Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN9833
Moreover, correctional staff access to PIMS and PDS is only provided at the request of the correctional staff member.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9834
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9835
He goes on to say:
PN9836
Accordingly, Mr Battley says that correctional supervisors, and to a lesser extent correctional officers, have been required to undertake computer operation in addition to their normal duties is incorrect.
PN9837
So Mr Ward is there disputing that correctional supervisors are required as part of their duties to make entries to and deal with both the PIMS and PDS system; do you see that?---Mm.
PN9838
Well, who is correct?---Well, I believe the statement doesn't accurately, I guess, address what we actually do at Fulham. My understanding and my experience has been that correctional supervisors have - and officers have had access to the computers at Fulham from day one because of the system that we have in place. As I said before, they have had responsibilities to input data in relation to managing prisoner information, and where they have requested that they receive more training or more access, we have ensured that that happens given the work that they do and, in doing so, making sure that their ability to do the job is less burdensome or onerous and it takes away some of the time they may spend away from a unit trying to access systems or data elsewhere in the prison. That is why the computer systems exist as they are, and that is why they sit in the units.
PN9839
So you - - -?---So I don't particularly agree with Mr Ward's statement.
PN9840
And your - the evidence that you have just given is that it is a formal requirement of the duties of correctional supervisors and correctional officers and has always been to make entries on to these particular systems; is that right?---Well, as I said, the supervisors have had the responsibility and have participated in the entry of varying pieces of data. As I said, it has to do with movements of prisoners throughout the centre. It has to do with adding or taking people off a valid visitors list and in some cases inputting information surrounding incidents.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9841
So it is not, as Mr Ward puts it, that hasn't occurred on the basis of correctional supervisors volunteering - - -?---Well, I - - -
PN9842
That has occurred as a result of it being a formal requirement of their position. Is that your evidence?---I have indicated that I don't agree with Mr Ward's statement in that aspect.
PN9843
And you would, therefore, agree, would you not, at least in part with what Mr Battley has to say that correctional supervisors have been required to undertake computer operations?---Well, to the extent that it has always been a requirement that they do so and that they have had that access from day one in relation to Fulham's system and the PIMS system as they gained the understanding and knowledge of it, and we were able to get access from the Commissioner's office. It wasn't something that was imposed on them in the sense of a strike out of the blue saying, all right, everyone has to do the computer system. It has always been part of our system, part of our operating system at Fulham.
PN9844
All right. Now, can I just take you back to the issue of devolution and the - I have finished with that statement, your Honour.
PN9845
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Have you finished with ACM18 as well?
PN9846
MR LAWRENCE: I have, your Honour, yes.
PN9847
Now, can you just go over for me again, Mr Myers, if you will what you say were the duties and responsibilities that were devolved to supervisors as a result of the evolution of the unit manager's position and the establishment of the area manager's position?---I recall that my evidence suggested or stated that the responsibilities that flew, or flowed into the supervisors was being, as I said, a first point of contact in the unit taking on, I guess, some responsibilities in relation to requests that were coming from the prisoners and, I guess, just being
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
there in relation to supervising the work of correctional officers which has always been part of their duties in the unit. I am not aware of anything that was extra or burdensome that came in as part of that particular trial to see what would happen if we - if as we trialled area management, I just can't recollect anything that would have been burdensome in that sense. I can't recall anything else.
[2.50pm]
PN9848
Wasn't it the fact that supervisors at the time of devolution were designated as disciplinary officers, so they could investigate and enter data on the various systems?---I am not aware that they applied that particular, I guess, function at that particular time. We did, as part of, again, a request from the supervisors to be able to be more actively involved in that process, provide an authorisation under the general manager's signature, which allowed them to, I guess, investigate things under the Act, but it was more a formality in giving them, I guess, the authority, as it were, to undertake that particular role which was part of their role as a supervisor, you know, reporting and investigating incidents that occur within the centre as part of their duties, it was a formality that we put in place that assisted them.
PN9849
And they proceeded to undertake disciplinary investigations as a result of that change, or is your evidence that supervisors have always been involved in the process of disciplinary investigations?---The supervisors have always played a part in, I guess, investigating and finding the detail in relation to incidents that occur. In providing that particular authorisation it formalised a process which allowed them to make a recommendation to the correctional manager in relation to, I guess, issuing a charge and having the prisoner charged under the Act in relation to prison discipline issues. And as I said, it wasn't something that was imposed by the management of the centre, it was an issue that came up in relation to them feeling that they required some additional, I guess, authority, as it were, to assist them in their particular role that they have.
PN9850
So that they play, your evidence is, that from the inception of the centre supervisors have played a role in terms of the investigation of disciplinary matters?---Yes, they have.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9851
Sorry to do this your Honour; could the witness be shown ACM8 again please.
PN9852
See paragraph 8 of Mr Senior's statement there, Mr Myers?---Yes.
PN9853
Line 4?---Yes.
PN9854
It says:
PN9855
Correctional managers in practice took on a lot of tasks that fell within the position description of correctional officers and correctional supervisors.
PN9856
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9857
This was expected in FCCs infancy, however, gradually over time correctional officers and correctional supervisors began to take greater responsibility or ownership of tasks that have always come within the scope of their positions.
PN9858
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9859
For example, initially correctional managers were involved in the investigation of all prisoner incidents as well as the disciplinary hearing. Now some supervisors are designated as disciplinary officers, which allows them to conduct investigations at the initial stage before the matter may later be referred to a disciplinary tribunal.
PN9860
Do you see that?---Disciplinary hearing, yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9861
Now, that is not in accord with the evidence you have just given, is it, that supervisors have been involved in this process from the inception of the institution?---In relation to a supervisor's role or a correctional officer's role, they have always been required to report on and give information concerning breaches of discipline. I think to split a hair, to say a report can be an investigation, as much as me asking the correctional supervisor to go and ask the prisoner, why did you return a positive result to a urine sample? I think that would be the extent of the investigation if you were going to draw that particular picture. It is part of the process in relation to, I think, finding out what has happened or occurred within the prison setting at that local level, given that we do manage and operate under a unit management principles, and staff need to be aware and know how to obtain that information. I think Mr Senior is correct in what he says here, that gradually over time officers and supervisors gain their confidence and grew in confidence, and were able to take on with more confidence, I suppose, all of the work that was required of them. When we commenced Fulham we hired 120 people straight off the street who had never worked in the prison system or industry, so there was some fairly steep learning curves for a number of people who worked there, and as their ability grew so did their ability to do things grew within the prison.
PN9862
Do you say that supervisors have always been designated as disciplinary officers at Fulham?---No, they haven't always been designated as a disciplinary officer. As I explained earlier, we provided that sort of designation for them as a request that they brought to me through the operations manager, which formalised their ability to assist and help with that particular function in the course of their duty. It allowed them to, I guess, as I said, have that authority to practice and participate in that particular function of their job. They don't conduct disciplinary hearings in that such, nor do they sign off on any sort of penalty that is assigned as a result of any sort of disciplinary matter or investigation. That still lies with the correctional manager.
PN9863
And is it your evidence that supervisors have conducted investigations in respect of disciplinary matters from the inception of Fulham?---Well, probably in week one to maybe the sixth month they probably did not, but as I explained earlier, as their confidence grew in their abilities to perform their duties, and as they learned and progressed within their duties, I believe, yes, that they did take on those responsibilities because they were able to and felt more comfortable with it in doing that.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9864
So you now say that there are responsibilities that supervisors subsequently took on after the opening of the centre?---Well, as I said before, the expectation was always there, and I think officers have grown into that and have been able to take on their role in a rather fulsome and robust manner.
PN9865
Can I show you this document. And I take you say then that a supervisor's role in respect of conducting investigations in relation to disciplinary matters is part of the scope of a correctional supervisor role, is it not?---I believe it is part of the scope of a supervisor's role.
PN9866
Can I ask you to have a look at this. This is an attachment to Mr Battley's statement, your Honour, and this is the original duty statement, as far as we are aware, that was in place at Fulham at the time it opened. It was subject to a revision, and it has also been subject to a later revision, I think, which appears now as ACM8 and 9.
PN9867
Now, what I want you to do, Mr Myers, I want you to take me, in terms of that duty statement, to where it says that supervisors are required as part of their position to the involvement under conduct of disciplinary investigations?---From my reading of this particular document there isn't an explicit duty or responsibility that states that particular function. But I would suggest that 2.11, other duties as directed by the correctional manager, could involve conducting an investigation or inquiries in relation to breaches of discipline within the unit.
PN9868
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Whereabouts is that, sorry?---2.11, which is the last point.
PN9869
That doesn't appear, I don't think, in either of ACM8 or ACM9. Could I perhaps have a look at that document?
PN9870
MR LAWRENCE: I think it does, your Honour. Has your Honour got the attachment to Mr Battley's statement, attachment 1?
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9871
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I have got ACM8 and ACM9.
PN9872
MR LAWRENCE: Yes, your Honour. In ACM8 there is a 1.14, which is, any other responsibilities that apply to this position as defined in the relevant sections of the operating manual.
PN9873
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, that is in ACM8?
PN9874
MR LAWRENCE: Yes.
PN9875
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: ACM8 and ACM9 are different in format to this document here.
PN9876
MR LAWRENCE: Yes. That document there, as we apprehend it, was an early position description statement that applied at the centre.
PN9877
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, thank you.
PN9878
MR LAWRENCE: And what about in relation to ACM8, Mr Myers? Can I show you that document. Where does the conduct of disciplinary investigations, where does that document state that supervisors should be involved in, or required to be involved in the conduct of disciplinary investigations?---Well, again, there is probably no specific duty there that says that they would be involved in the investigation of a disciplinary matter, but I notice that 1.4 directs that they monitor and maintain the dynamic and static security, and report orally and in writing unusual behaviour, or occurrences which could result in a breach of security, and take on those other responsibilities that apply to this position as defined in the operating manual. To suggest - I don't feel that it is necessary to say to someone, your position has it that you would investigate breaches, because part of a correctional officer's responsibility on a daily basis in managing the security of the centre would certainly find those breaches, and part of finding and reporting on breaches I believe constitutes an investigation process which informs a number of processes that a correctional manager might take in deciding the penalty or deciding what to do with that particular breach.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9879
It is a pretty important duty, is it not, Mr Myers. Wouldn't you expect it to be included within that position description statement?---Well, I guess it is an important duty, but when you look at the, I guess, the types of investigations that I guess currently go on at Fulham in relation to those breaches, as I said before, it is usually asking the prisoner why he returned a positive result to a urine sample if it is positive, because it is a disciplinary matter, why he was out of bounds, if that is the case. I mean, to suggest that there is an investigation process that is onerous or overly long or, you know, takes a correctional supervisor away from his duties for hours and hours on end, it just isn't the case. We try to maintain that discipline process in an informal and in a manner that quickly deals with those issues, so, you know, reviewing a couple of investigation cases over this last couple of weeks, the investigation was one line, saying, I asked a prisoner why he returned positive, and he said he didn't care. And that was the extent of the investigation, and it was referred on to the manager for the disciplinary process. It is an important part of the work that correctional officers do, correctional supervisors do to maintain, I guess, watch over what is happening the prison.
PN9880
And, Mr Myers, how long a particular investigation may take depends on the nature of that investigation, doesn't it? It depends on the circumstances, what is required to be investigated, and so forth?---Well, as I indicated before, the complexity of any investigation that might be taken by a supervisor is fairly simple. More complex cases regarding assaults or things like that, they are always referred on to the police or our Intel manager when the officers provide their reports, that inform that process as well. So to suggest that we would have correctional supervisors undertaking very complex or, as I said, long involved investigations, just is not the case, it just wouldn't happen.
PN9881
And if you look at 1.4 of ACM8, Mr Myers, looking at that you would not know from that that supervisors, as you say, are required to undertake disciplinary investigations as part of their duties?---It doesn't say that, no.
PN9882
Isn't it true, Mr Myers, that nearly all the correctional supervisors when Fulham opened were either ex Core employees or ex Junee or Arthur Gorrie employees?---We did have a number of people who came from our other centres in Core who were in a manager or supervisor position. I couldn't give you the direct numbers, I wasn't there on the day we started.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9883
And, indeed, there were a number of employees who were ex Core employees, weren't there?---In relation to being a correctional supervisor, again, I can't put a direct number on it. I guess in relation to that issue, today currently the majority of our supervisors have all been promoted from within the ranks, because we had a fairly high turnover of supervisors in that first 12 months, and they have been promoted.
PN9884
Now, I think prior to lunch, I think earlier, or after lunch, in terms of devolution, Mr Myers, you said that supervisors, on your evidence, became the first point of contact with the unit, and also were more involved in prisoner applications?---Taking requests, applications for requests in that sense, not - I guess you would have to define what an application is.
PN9885
And do you say supervisors now don't play that role at all?---I don't say that at all, no.
PN9886
So they still continue to play that role?---They continue to play their role as a supervisor in managing or supervising the prisoners in the unit, and in providing the supervision to the correctional staff that are there, and they participate in that role.
PN9887
But in that respect are you saying it has always been part of their duties to do that?---Well, that was when we reviewed the prospect of devolving those - I won't use the word devolving - when we introduced the area management concept we did look at what responsibilities were there, and found that there wasn't, as I said before, an overly burdensome responsibility placed on the supervisors as a result of that move to an area management role, and it is something we trialled, it was something that we found didn't work at that stage of our development, and we reverted back to our original staffing situation.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9888
You say it wasn't overly onerous, Mr Myers. What I am trying to ask you about is, it is accepted that there was a devolution of responsibilities from area managers to correctional supervisors, and I take it you say that was confined to supervisors becoming the first point of contact in the unit?---Well, in saying the first point of contact in the unit, that was always going to be the case regardless of whether a correctional manager was there or not. The supervisors and the correctional officers have always been the first point of contact for a prisoner in relation to trying to have any of their needs satisfied or the information that they seek. That has always been the case. It is - with the appointment of the area manager, the correctional manager, as such, in the particular unit wasn't there for the eight hours of the day that they had normally been there. They shared themselves across two of those units.
PN9889
Now, Mr Myers, you are aware of the evidence of Mr De Moel and other CPSU witnesses in these proceedings relating to the issue of devolution. Isn't it a fact that supervisors were called in and given specific training in respect of functions associated with PIMS and PDS in the lead up to the abolition of unit managers and the introduction of area managers so that they can undertake a broader range of tasks given the abolition of unit managers?---I am not aware of the training, the specific training, save for what I mentioned earlier in relation to the IMP file tracking so that could track. I am not aware of what other training took place or if any other training took place.
PN9890
So you are not in a position to dispute that evidence of Mr De Moel that supervisors were called in and given specific training in relation to the computer systems, particularly PIMS and ITAS, to enable them to undertake a broader range of functions post the abolition of the unit manager position?---The training and the access that was given was at the - my recollection is that that was given at the request of the supervisors that allowed them to put visitors on the valid visitors list that sit in the PIMS system. I am not aware that we called in those supervisors and gave them specific training regarding other aspects of the PIMS system in that sense. I am just not aware of it.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9891
Well, I am just having a bit of difficulty understanding your evidence, Mr Myers. If that had always been part of the duties of supervisors, then why at this time did they request specific training in relation to, for example, changing visitor lists on the PIMS system?---The - up and to that point in time I guess when we receive the request for supervisors to have that particular access, visitors are - the prisoners had to fill out a change of visitors list. It had to go down to the record section or to the front reception area of the prison. There was I guess some mistakes made or issues that it didn't happen. Paperwork got lost and, in order to I guess help in managing those requests, as I said, the supervisors came to us and said: we would like to be able to do that in the units. And so we facilitated that process at that request so that they could have I think some better control of that process and be able to give instant information back to prisoners on the fact that a change had been made to the valid visitors list.
PN9892
Just a moment. Mr Myers, the evidence of Mr De Moel, in his oral evidence, is this:
PN9893
No, but if I could go back to the period when we went from unit managers to area managers, all the supervisors - given at that time a learning curve was steep, then it levelled off for the staff that were there from day one, then came a period where they were going to introduce the area managers, and all the supervisors were called in to do additional training in areas that they had never had responsibility for, and those areas were the PIMS, PDS and ITAS. We were given that training so that we could undertake the duties that would be devolved to us as a direct result of the area managers being introduced.
PN9894
What do you say in relation to that evidence, Mr Myers?---Well, as I stated before that, any additional training that we gave to supervisors in relation to the PIMS came as a result of their request in trying to do the job better. As I said before, I am not aware of what specific training, if any, we called them in to do on PDS and PIMS. I would have to find that out if it was the case. But I am not aware of what that training was, nor am I aware of what specific or additional duties Mr De Moel was alluding to in that evidence. I just - I don't have a recollection of that, and I can't recall ever saying: bring them in and give them more training.
[3.20pm]
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9895
But it may well have happened, and Mr De Moel's evidence is that it did happen - - -?---Well - - -
PN9896
- - - that the supervisors were specifically called in and given that training to allow them to undertake tasks in the environment post abolition of the unit manager position and installation of area managers?---Well, as I said before, the training that was provided was at the request of the staff members in order to help them do their job better. As I said, I am not aware that we brought anyone in and gave them specific training in those areas. I would have to go back and have a look. I am not sure if anything has been written down anywhere about that, but I am not aware that that took place like that in those circumstances. The training was at the supervisor's request.
PN9897
And it might have happened. You are not aware of it?---As I said, I don't recall ever authorising it or having any information about that.
PN9898
All right. Isn't it also the case that with the abolition of the unit manager's position and the installation of area managers that supervisors assumed responsibility for the community custodian permit program?---The - I am not aware that they assumed responsibility for the program. The community custodial - custodial community permit program, CCPP, is mainly administered out of the minimum security area. The permits that would come from any of the units would be directly, because of the medium security status that the majority of medium security prisoners that exist in those units would be as a result of a family ties or an emergency leave. So I am - do not know why they would take any sort of responsibility for those CCPPs in that sense. It has always been administered and managed through the minimum security area where the majority of prisoners participate in those leaves, in that sense. As I said, the CCPPs that come out of our main stream units usually have to do with emergency family ties permits in the event of a sick relative or the death of a loved one or something like that. So where they say they took responsibility for them, I can't say yes, they did, or no, they did not, because that is something that the prisoner applies and his case manager assists him in the development of that application and, you know, gathers the pertinent information, and then the permit is given to the correctional manager and ultimately it is signed off by the operations manager or the general manager.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9899
Well, who were those forms given to when there wasn't a correctional manager?---The operations manager, I would suggest. The supervisor - as I said, if a prisoner wants to apply to go on a leave, he sees his case worker and, when that information is completed, that information is passed on to the correctional manager in the unit or it is given to the operations manager. And if we want to - and if they want to stretch a bow in saying: well, I handled a piece of paper, therefore I deserve a pay rise, I don't think that is correct because it would have been just handling a piece of paper to the operations manager saying: this is the request that we have had.
PN9900
What about the issue of issuing separation orders, Mr Myers?---The issuing of separation orders: separation orders are issued in relation to the separation of a prisoner into the management unit because of a breach or an imposition of loss of privileges at a disciplinary hearing. The shift manager is the individual who does the separation orders as a result of people moving into the management unit. I am not aware of any supervisors having to take on that responsibility because it is not in their purview or their role.
PN9901
Well, who under took the compilation of the separation orders within the unit; leaving aside who signs off on them, who undertook the compilation of them post the abolition of the unit manager's position?---The separation order, to my knowledge, have never been completed by people in the units. They have always been done by the shift manager as the prisoner is placed in the management unit and separated, as such.
PN9902
Isn't it the fact that, with the abolition of the unit managers, supervisors played a greater role in such things as preparing monthly reports and financial reporting for the unit?---In relation to the monthly reporting, as I gave evidence yesterday, that reporting aspect went to just the gathering and collating of the data which was then passed to the - our contract complaints manager who prepares the actual report. So, yes, as I said before, I think it is - it was a task that went to them in relation to just gathering the data of the activities that took place in the unit during a particular month. In relation to the financial reporting, unless there is a specific reference, I am not aware that supervisors were involved with financial reporting; only that they may have gotten information on the amount of consumables that they had used during the month, in relation to disinfectant and soap power and such, just so they had an idea of what their consumption was in relation to their budgeted allocation for the month of the year.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9903
And if I understand your evidence correctly then, in relation to the compilation and collation of the monthly reporting material, your evidence is that that was a function that fell to supervisors post the abolition of the unit manager's position?---I wouldn't say it fell to them post the abolition of unit managers. I believe that unit managers and supervisors have always worked together in the compilation of those - of that data in preparation to handing it on to the contract complaints manager. I don't say that they took on that responsibility when we moved to the area manager role, but certainly I think it would be good management practice to have your supervisor know what is happening in your unit on a monthly basis to ensure that we maintain the good order and the security in the management of the prison.
PN9904
The monthly reports, Mr Myers, are actually signed off on within the unit, are they not, and then forwarded to the compliance manager who collates all of those monthly reports into one report effectively?---That is correct.
PN9905
So the monthly reports are formally signed off at the unit level for each unit?---Yes, yes, they are but in saying that, as I said earlier, the report consists of how many searches did we do, how many incidents of assault did we do. It is one A4 sheet of paper that has that information, and the manager signs it to say: it is completed, here it is. That is the extent of the data gathering that takes place in preparation for the monthly report to be developed.
PN9906
Now, you, of course, were not working in the units at the time that devolution took place, were you?---No, I was the operations manager at the time.
PN9907
Yes, and even if you look at the function of - in terms of devolution, if you say there was a greater involvement of correctional supervisors in relation to prisoner application forms, do you say even that function has been completely reversed post the reintroduction of unit managers after January 2000?---I would suggest that the - with the reinstatement of the correctional managers in the units that the, I guess, perceived, I guess, increase has lessened in that sense because the managers - and that is one reason why we put them back in, is the managers themselves were overloaded with trying to manage the two units. We felt it was
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
necessary in order for consistency and the fact that the double-ups were there, that we had a correctional manager in each unit to oversee the activities in that unit. And that is why we went back to the correctional manager in each unit. I believe that that - as I said, the perceived increase or duties that supervisors, I guess, it fell - that fell to them has been removed. It was not an issue that appeared in our EBA negotiations with our current EBA. It just was not an issue.
PN9908
Can I ask you this? Area managers were created in March 1999 and those area managers had control of how many units?---Two units, the L1 and L4 and L7 and L10.
PN9909
All right. And do you say now that all of the management duties and responsibilities in respect of what were previously done by the unit manager were all undertaken by the area manager?---Yes, I do, yes, I do.
PN9910
And that there was in effect - there was no devolution of responsibilities, any of those responsibilities to supervisors at the unit level?---In relation to the responsibilities of the correctional manager, they maintained all of their responsibilities as a correctional manager in relation to their duty statement and the roles that they took on. Any devolution or additional responsibility that was taken on by the supervisor had to do with just the simple management of the prisoners and the staff in the unit, and the area manager was available for any queries or issues that arose in any of those units. We did not take away duties from the area manager, in fact we expected more of the area manager because he was managing two units at that particular time, with the support of the supervisors and the correctional officers maintaining their roles in those units.
PN9911
All right. And the area manager proceeded to do all of the computer related functions that were previously done by the unit managers. Is that your evidence today?---My evidence is that they maintained their involvement with the computers and we provided additional training to the supervisors at their request in relation to helping them manage the prisoners and the information that they were managing with the prisoners.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9912
I see. So your evidence is that to the extent there was any devolution then that devolution was reversed with the re-institution of unit managers?---My evidence is that with the re-instatement of the managers back in the units I believe that the managers relieved some of the perceived, I guess, workload that was there which is just by simply the fact that they were there back in the units.
PN9913
And you say Mr De Moel's role when he says that prior to - as a supervisor prior to the abolition of the area manager's position, supervisors had little or no role in relation to PIMS, PDS and ITAS?---No, I don't say his is wrong, I say that there may be some selective memory loss in the process there, but officers have always been involved with the computer systems at Fulham. We have allowed - we gave people access to PIMS on a graduated and gradual basis because of the requirements of the Commissioner's office and where staff, especially supervisors, requested additional access which they thought would help in their particular role, then we authorised and gained that access for them and trained them in how to do it.
PN9914
So supervisors were somehow - supervisors could somehow foresee the future, could they, and they saw what their role was going to be and requested training in order to meet it. Is that right?---No, that is not the case at all. In their development and in the work that they did in the units they could see where they could do it better having access to the PIMS system. As has been pointed out, we did have staff that had worked in public corrections in the past and I believed that their knowledge and their work with the PIMS system then encouraged and fostered that desire to have that access with our guys in that sense. They could see that the benefits were they and we responded to those requests for additional access so that they could do their job better.
PN9915
So are you now saying that Mr Ward was in fact right, not wrong, that it came about that supervisors aren't required to undertake these tasks but do so on a voluntary basis. Is that what you are saying?---No, that is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that there has always been an expectation that they were involved with the computer systems within the prison and from day one they had access to the e-mail system and the system where we maintain all of our operating manuals and as we were able to train people and gradually get access to the PIMS system, people saw the benefits and requested further access and further training so that they would do their work.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9916
So you say, do you, Mr Myers, that there is a very clear line of demarcation between the duties undertaken by a unit manager and the duties undertaken by a correctional supervisor?---The duties of the manager and the duties of the supervisor are different. I accept that.
PN9917
You also know that Mr Shorter gave evidence about a visit to the centre by a representative from Mercer. Are you aware of that?---Yes.
PN9918
And that Mr Shorter attended the meeting and his evidence wasn't subject to challenge in cross-examination. He said:
PN9919
I believe it was just a general overview, a general outline of our duties and that was basically it. We then went on to supervisors and we spent probably the majority of our time with the supervisor and the managers because he -
PN9920
being the Mercer representative -
PN9921
had difficulty in discerning what the difference was between a correctional supervisor in the unit and a correctional manager and I believe for quite a while we were actually defending what the managers were doing in the units to the person and that the person had difficulty discerning the difference between a supervisor and a manager.
PN9922
What do you say in relation to that evidence, Mr Myers?---I wasn't present at the meeting that took place and I am aware, myself, that there is a difference between a supervisor and a correctional manager in relation to the authorisations that managers have and what they are authorised under the Act to do. They are a layer of management within our structure and they provide guidance and management to the units and the staff and the prisoners that work in the unit. I wasn't privy to the discussions that were had with this gentleman.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9923
Let me take you to paragraph 19, Mr Myers. Now in paragraph 19 you deny that there was any increased tension between prisoners as a result of the introduction of double ups at Fulham?---Yes.
PN9924
And my notes of your evidence yesterday was that in your oral evidence you also stated that there was no increase in tension between prisoners as a result of double ups being introduced at Fulham?---Yes.
PN9925
That is your evidence?---Yes, it is.
PN9926
And you were aware of evidence given by CPSU witnesses at Fulham in these proceedings in relation to a substantially increased amount of tension and conflict as a result of the introduction of double ups?---I am aware of their oral evidence, yes.
PN9927
Well, it is not only oral evidence, it is written evidence, Mr Myers?---Yes, I am aware of their evidence.
PN9928
And do you say that the CPSU witnesses are wrong in what they say about that?---I believe that it is an exaggeration of what is actually the case, your Honour. The statistics that we have provided to this case would indicate that we haven't had massive or serious increases in incidents or tension within our units and I think it is borne out, even in relation to our service delivery outcomes, that we have maintained consistency across our years of service in relation to the number of incidents of assault, as it were, in relation to the double ups. We have not perceived or analysed an increase in tensions as a result of the double ups.
PN9929
And that is your evidence? You are aware of the evidence of Mr Hutchison and Mr King in relation to Loddon and Port Phillip prisons that there was increased tension and conflict at those institutions as a result of the introduction of double ups?---Could you just clarify that for me?
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9930
You are aware of the evidence of Mr Hutchison and Mr King in relation to Loddon and Port Phillip prison, that there was increased tension and conflict at those institutions as a result of the introduction of double ups?---That there was increased tension?
PN9931
Yes?---I am aware of their oral evidence, yes.
PN9932
Now can I take you to JRM3.
PN9933
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: 3 or 3A?
PN9934
MR LAWRENCE: JRM - for present purposes JRM3, your Honour.
PN9935
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN9936
MR LAWRENCE: What I want to go to is the assaults. You see - - -?---I don't have that copy with me. Hang on a minute.
PN9937
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Perhaps I should get back ACM18. Are you finished with that, have you? Look we will go back there later. I just don't want to mix up all the papers, that is all.
PN9938
MR LAWRENCE: Yes, if your Honour could hold that our for just a moment, please?
PN9939
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sure.
PN9940
MR LAWRENCE: Now do you see that, Mr Myers?---Yes.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9941
Right. And do you see the large jump in the number of assaults that occurred in September 1999 through to November 1999?---Yes.
PN9942
And do you say that is a pure co-incidence that that was the time when the first lot of double ups were introduced into Fulham Prison?---The analysis that we have conducted and we have had in place at Fulham a committee that reviews all of these incidents of assault and aggression. None of the incidents that we have reported and that show on these graphs are related back to any of the double up situation that we have had at Fulham and, you know, we stand by that particular success in that we just haven't had any of these incidents related back to the double up.
PN9943
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: How are you able to say that?---Well, because of where the incidents have taken place and the circumstances around the incidents that are reported there. There just does not equate or fit into a pattern that would suggest that we had tensions resulting from the double ups. It may be coincidental that it happened when they were introduced, but with the introduction and with moving people into double up cells, we have not, as I said, discerned or in any of our analysis found that the incidents are related to the double up situation.
PN9944
MR LAWRENCE: And how do you know the incident or incidents weren't borne out of an underlying frustration with the introduction of double ups, Mr Myers?---Well, part of the process in any of these incidents, you know, our intel manager conducts an investigation and inquires about these incidents and as a matter of fact his reports and his analysis have suggested that, that they are not related to a double up situation. None of these assaults here have occurred in a double up cell and it hasn't been because of the double ups. We haven't discerned that. It has been because of, you know, the personalities that come into the prison system, some of the issues that prisoners bring with them, but we haven't discerned any increase in those issues as a result of the double up.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9945
Well, the assault may not have occurred in a double up cell, Mr Myers, but the motivating factors for the assault might be a sense of frustration borne out of having to share a double up cell in an accommodation area within a unit that was not expanded to cope with an increased number of prisoners?---That is not our analysis or the evidence that we have gathered in relation to these assaults. It is just not the case.
PN9946
Did you ask the particular prisoners involved as to how they felt about double ups, the ones that are involved in incidents?---We did not, no, and we did not because it wasn't anything that had a bearing on the investigation.
PN9947
Well, then how do you know from a prisoner's perspective that the double ups didn't have an impact?---Well, I can't answer that one, but the evidence that we have gathered and the analysis that we have done suggest that it is not related to the double up.
PN9948
And you say again your evidence is that there has been no increase whatsoever in a level of tension and conflict amongst prisoners as a result of the introduction of double ups?---As I said in my evidence we have not detected that or discerned that in any of our discussions with prisoners or even with our staff outside this particular realm that they have discerned any more tension or conflict within the correctional centre as a result of the double ups.
PN9949
In part of your evidence yesterday, if I recall, Mr Myers, was that part of the reason why you say there has been no increase in the level of tension and conflict amongst prisoners as a result of the introduction of double ups is the fact that prisoners are informed in the custody centre that they are going to go into a double up cell. Is that right?---The evidence that I gave yesterday involved the fact that when double ups were first introduced they were introduced across the system. The Commissioner's office facilitated a forum where all the providers got together and in that forum we worked out strategies to ensure that prisoners were informed of the fact that double ups are occurring across the system, that they will be, you know, housed in double up cells across the system for periods of time, and the fact that when our prisoners attend at Fulham we have our peer
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
supporters present at the induction process which explained the double up situation and tried to illicit from those prisoners if they have a friend or someone that they would like to double up with and we try to accommodate that, so, you know, in managing a situation that has the potential to become volatile I believe the system was responsible and acted responsibly and I think that is reflected in the assaults numbers that you see there not spiking up dramatically across the couple of years that we have had our double ups, but have maintained some consistency across that double up period.
PN9950
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you have any situations where prisoners refuse to go into a double up cell?---We have had a few situations where prisoners have refused to go into double up cells.
PN9951
What happens in those circumstances?---Well, the routine is that we remove the prisoner to the management unit and, you know, try to sort through the issues that are there and they eventually see that they could be better accommodated in a unit in a double up cell rather than a management cell. I think in the time we have had our double ups, we have had to return one prisoner back to either Port Phillip or MAP because there was - well, it was intractable in relation to trying to place him. I would suggest three or four cases where we have taken people to our management unit as a result of their refusal.
PN9952
MR LAWRENCE: And what happens if - and what happens after the management unit, Mr Myers? They go back to the induction unit and are asked once again and what happens if they continue to refuse?---Well, the discussions are all had with prisoners while they are in the management unit and that, usually with the unit manager or the office manager discussing the, I guess, the issue with the prisoner and it is from that particular location that he knows he is going to a double up cell and he goes to a double up cell. It isn't that he is asked again and we would go through this whole process of taking him back down to the management unit. We don't have a recurrent or repeat performance, as it were, from prisoners on that issue.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9953
Now when you say that prisoners were told when double ups were being introduced across the system, prisoners were told effectively in the custody centre before they went out to individual prisons that they were going to go into a double up cell. Is that right?---Well, as I said, the meetings that we had and the decisions that were made in managing this were that there would be information put to prisoners at the MAP and at Port Phillip to say, hey, there is a double-up situation in place and you will be going into double-up cells when you arrive at certain prisons. That is my information and that is how we have managed the receptions of prisoners at Fulham, on the basis that they have come with that knowledge.
[3.50pm]
PN9954
All right. And your evidence is that there has been no increase in tension or conflict amongst prisoners as a result of the introduction of double-ups?---Yes.
PN9955
Can I ask you to look at the Kirby Report again, Mr Myers?---Yes.
PN9956
Page 77. Do you see page 77?---Yes.
PN9957
Prison crowding?---Yes.
PN9958
Second paragraph:
PN9959
The panel noted with concern that the growth in the number of prisoners in the Victorian prison system has led to the necessity of prisoners being doubled up in units.
PN9960
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9961
It then goes on:
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9962
Although literature into double-bunking is predominantly American, the research indicates that negative social relations and interactions are associated with the practice of double-bunking. Many studies suggest prison overcrowding has a positive correlation to the number of assaults in prisons. Prisoner assaults on prisoners and prisoner assaults on staff increase in prisoner numbers rise beyond capacity.
PN9963
?---Yes.
PN9964
That is the literature:
PN9965
Several studies have also demonstrated that overcrowding in prisons has deleterious effects on the physical and mental health of prisoners. In addition, overcrowding increases pressures on educational, recreational, health and religious services to prisoners, exhaustion of prison services and limitations on recreational facilities such as library books, television, lounge seating and recreational materials increase the potential for boredom and tension and subsequently inflate the possibility of violence in the prison.
PN9966
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9967
The literature also suggests that:
PN9968
There may be consequences for staff that manifest themselves in an increasing staff turnover and use of sick leave.
PN9969
Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN9970
And then it says:
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9971
The investigation by CORE into the impact of double-bunking in public prisons concluded that recent experience within Barwon and Loddon Prisons is consistent with and confirms the literature. Both Barwon and Loddon showed an increase in the number of assaults, both prisoner on prisoner and prisoner on staff. The health implications are evident in the increase of self-mutilation, and attempted suicide incidents as well as the anecdotal evidence which reveal trends in complaints, prescription and diagnosis. The strain on prison services was illustrated by the resource implications in the provision of education and other programs and staff ill-health data showed an increase following the implementation of double-bunking.
PN9972
Do you see that?---Yes.
PN9973
So that occurred in terms of the deleterious effects on prisoners from double-bunking occurred in your view everywhere else but at Fulham. Is that right?---Well, I guess the references in that passage are submissions from people who have a vested interest in seeing double-ups not occur, being the community legal centres and Public Corrections itself I don't think was really hip on taking on those particular double-ups. I believe the lack of success experienced in public prisons was because of management issues. That is my perception; I don't have any evidence of that. My evidence would suggest that at Fulham we managed very, very hard and very, very well the double-up situation and in considering the deleterious effects of double-ups we have tried to minimise that within our centre by trying to move prisoners out of double-ups as quickly as we can by ensuring that the prisoners who are put into a double-bunk situation are there with someone that they know or at least can have access to their friends. Fulham Correctional Centre has I think some of the best practices in relation to managing at risk prisoners which has helped in our management of prisoners in this situation which has made it hopefully successful, and as I said, my evidence would suggest that we haven't suffered these things because of how we manage and the fact that we have to manage it well to maintain our contract.
PN9974
Mr Myers, your evidence is not only not in accord with that of the CPSU witnesses from Fulham and from elsewhere. It is not in accord, I suggest, with the figures in JRM3. It is not in accord with the findings of the Kirby inquiry, and it is not even in accord with your own operations manager.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9975
Could Mr Myers be shown the witness statement of Mr Senior, please, ACM18.
PN9976
Could you go to paragraph 11, Mr Myers. The second sentence: As was to be expected, says Mr Senior:
PN9977
There was a slight increase in tension amongst prisoners when the double-ups were initially introduced.
PN9978
?---Yes.
PN9979
You say there was no increase, Mr Myers, there was no increase in tension and conflict at all. Mr Senior doesn't say that, does he?---Mr Senior indicates that there was a slight increase in tension.
PN9980
Well, that is not no increase, is it?---Well, Mr Senior has a particular opinion about what is happening, and I have a particular opinion about what is happening. I don't think my opinion is at odds with Mr Senior's evidence here. As I stated earlier, we have had assaults. We have investigated those assaults. We have analysed their impact on the centre, and where they have come from, and we haven't judged that any of those incidents are relative or related to the double-ups that we have had occur. To suggest that there was a slight increase in tension, I am willing to concede that Mr Senior as the operations manager may have felt that. He is closer to the floor in that sense on a daily basis than was I, so you know, I think there has to be variation in evidence, depending on where you are sitting in all this.
PN9981
So you are willing to concede that there may indeed have been some increase in tension and conflict as a result of the - - -?---I would, I would concede - - -
PN9982
- - - implementation of double-ups at Fulham?---I would concede that there may have been a slight increase on the commencement, but we have not had an ongoing increase or ongoing issues or tension resulting from the double-up situation at Fulham.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9983
So you are now modifying your evidence from no increase in tension and conflict to at least a slight increase in tension and conflict. Is that right?---I have conceded the point, your Honour.
PN9984
Mr Myers, there were a number of prisoners, were there not, at Fulham with the introduction of double-ups and post that introduction who were in single cell accommodation?---Yes, all of them were.
PN9985
And you would agree with me, would you not, that single cell accommodation within a prison is something that is highly valued?---Yes, it is.
PN9986
Within a prison environment the opportunity to have your own space, to have your own privacy within a communal prison environment and a place to retreat to is something that would be valued very highly?---Yes, it is, I agree with that.
PN9987
And you agree with me that when double-ups were introduced - and you agree with me that within a double-up cell there is then two prisoners sharing the area that was previously shared by one; you agree with that?---Yes. That is a fact.
PN9988
And the cell has no privacy in relation to the toilet and shower facilities, they are open toilet, open shower?---Well, the facilities in the cell are all self-contained, so they are open in that sense.
PN9989
And the accommodation areas within the units themselves which were originally designed in some cases for 102 prisoners and which in some cases if you take Lima 7, it now has 132 prisoners, have not been expanded in any way. Those units remain the same size that they were post the introduction of double-ups?---That is correct. The infrastructure hasn't increased.
PN9990
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are there separate toilets and showers in the cell block itself, or each cell has its own and the - - -?---Each cell has its own toilet and shower.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9991
And no separate ones as well?---No separate ones, no. The old days had a communal shower and communal toilet, but then a stainless steel pan was in the cell but no others.
PN9992
MR LAWRENCE: And given those matters, Mr Myers, it is a matter of plain common sense, isn't it, that prisoners are not going to be happy to move from a single cell to a double-up environment, particularly in circumstances where it means moving in with a stranger?---Well, to put it that way it - that would be the case. The approach that we used at Fulham was to elicit from those who wanted to double up and we had a positive result from a number of people. I mean, we didn't target people to do that. As I said, we tried to do it on a basis of information and making sure persons understood what exactly was happening. At the particular time we did double-up it wasn't that we emptied a prisoner out and just threw another person in with him. That certainly wasn't the case. We tried to work some of the double-ups on the attrition of prisoners moving out, and then moving two people back into that cell really as a double-up and things like that. I mean, it is part of managing a large organisation like that. Some people will be happy with the end result, and some people won't be happy with the end result. I believe that we approached that issue with I think a degree of sensitivity and common sense to ensure that we didn't impinge on a prisoner's ability to maintain his own cell. We tried to do it with a degree of sensitivity and dignity to ensure that we maintained that for the prisoner.
PN9993
But there were at least a lot of prisoners who went into a double-up cell without knowing the person they were to be doubled up with. Isn't that correct?---Well, I can't say that that is the case. I just don't know. We established a particular protocol and try to stick to it. I can't, I can't say that we put strangers in a cell or not. I am just not aware of that process.
PN9994
Well, it would be unusual, would it not, for every inductee into Fulham post the introduction of double-ups to know a person that they wished to share with?---Well, I agree with that in that sense, but as I said before, the expectation has already been established with prisoners that they will be moving into a double-up, and we try to accommodate their particular needs within the double-ups, those that we have at Fulham.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN9995
And isn't it true, Mr Myers, that there have been actually incidents of prisoners being assaulted in a double-up cell because they have used the toilet facilities after lock-in?---I am not aware that that is the case. I am not aware of a specific incident where that has taken place.
PN9996
And who would do the negotiations in relation to which prisoners were going to double up with other prisoners at the unit level?---Prisoners are assigned to particular cell allocations by the supervisor in the unit where there is the availabilities.
PN9997
So it would - it is the supervisor's responsibility then in a double-up environment to seek to negotiate with prisoners about who they may or may not want to share with. Is that right?---I don't believe they negotiate that particular issue. It is an assignment. And then prisoners are assigned to a cell.
PN9998
Aren't the prisoners asked as to who they may wish to share with?---Yes, they are, or if they know anyone or if there is a preference. If there isn't, that is the assignment. I don't think there is a negotiation process that takes place there. It is information that is gathered and we try to accommodate it.
PN9999
What happens at the unit level in relation to a single cell becoming available? Who then determines whether a person in a double-up cell may go into that single cell or otherwise?---My information is that they have a list of the people who are in double-ups. I am not sure if it is a hierarchy list of, you know, first in, first out, as it were. I believe they try to manage that in relation to how long the person is going to be at Fulham. Short-term people are placed in a double-up cell, whereas those people who may be serving longer, longer terms or longer sentences, would be the ones that would be moved to a single cell based on their particular needs and what they do.
PN10000
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Who does the allocations?---The supervisor in the unit. That is my information.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN10001
MR LAWRENCE: You would accept, Mr Myers, would you not, that tension and conflict are evidence themselves short of formal assaults?---Yes.
PN10002
Tension and conflict could manifest themselves by way of threats, actual or implied. Do you agree with that?---Yes.
PN10003
And it could also manifest itself in relation to tactics of intimidation or standover short of actual assault?---Between prisoners?
PN10004
Yes?---That can happen.
PN10005
So you could have had an increase in tension and conflict that is not in itself reflected in the formal figures in relation to assaults. Do you accept that?---I guess again my evidence in relation to the assaults would suggest that we haven't had an increase in tensions that has resulted in assaults. We have had circumstances during this past two and a half, three years where we have had prisoners being stood over. I wouldn't put that down as a result of the double-ups in that sense. I think it is a matter of the personalities that come to the prison system, predatory behaviour that prisoners exhibit and have, and people trying to establish themselves in the hierarchy, as it were. I think to draw the bow to connect it all to double-ups is flawed.
PN10006
Well, you would accept, would you not, that tension and conflict may exist and indeed maybe increased as a result of double-ups but not be reflected in formal assault figures; do you accept that?---I would accept that with an increase in prisoner numbers there is increased people where incidents can occur. I would accept that, then.
PN10007
And to the extent that there has been an increase in tension and conflict, the CPSU witnesses say that increase has been substantial, you and Mr Senior say it has been slight; to the extent that there has been an increase in tension and conflict, that tension and conflict is invariably dealt with at the unit level by the correctional staff, is it not?---That is where correctional staff manage and supervise prisoners.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN10008
And you also accept, Mr Myers, that with an increased number of prisoners within the system as you may have an increased potential for tension and conflict that would also give rise to circumstances where there may well be increased levels of suspicion which require additional strip searches or urine testing or cell searching because of the increased number of prisoners involved?---I wouldn't accept that, because we haven't had the intel that would suggest that there is a lot of suspicious activity going on out there. With an increase in the prisoner numbers and the subsequent increase in the staff that we brought on I believe we have been able to cope with anything that has been like that. But as I said before in my earlier evidence and in our committee work that we do at the prison it isn't just looking at the assault, it is looking at, you know, what is happening around the prison. We haven't detected this increase, a dramatic increase in the skulduggery or suspicious activities around the centre. It is just something that we haven't detected, and I think to suggest otherwise I think is to misrepresent what actually happens at Fulham in how we manage our prisoner population. I just don't accept it.
PN10009
You don't accept that there has been an increase in suspicious activities at all even though there has been an increase in the prisoner numbers on your evidence of approximately 30 per cent?---Well, my evidence and what I have just said would suggest that of course with an increase in the number of prisoners, the number of prisoners, there is going to be an increase in things that are happening around the place, but to say that we have had a double or triple or a quadrupling of suspicious activities or nefarious activities around the place, that is not correct and accurate.
PN10010
Do you accept that there has been an increase?---I accept that there is an increase because of the numbers of prisoners.
PN10011
And you would accept, would you not, that that increase can itself lead to because of the additional number of prisoners, increases in such things as strip searches and urinalysis on the basis of suspicion?---Well, I would say yes, I would accept that, but the statistics that I have don't bear out that we have had massive increases in those kinds of activities at the centre.
**** JOHN RALPH MYERS XXN MR LAWRENCE
PN10012
But they do bear out that there have been increases?---Well, in that sense, yes, they have, but in saying that, we have accommodated the increases in prison numbers with, I believe, a commensurate increase in the number of correctional staff.
PN10013
Your Honour, I am about ready to move on to another topic.
PN10014
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, would that be a convenient time, because I have got another matter at 4.30, so - - -
PN10015
MR LAWRENCE: I am conscious of that, your Honour. Yes, I think that would be a convenient time.
PN10016
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.
ADJOURNED UNTIL FRIDAY, 14 MARCH 2003 [4.13pm]
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