|
|
Home
| Databases
| WorldLII
| Search
| Feedback
Australian Industrial Relations Commission Transcripts |
AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
ABN 76 082 664 220
Level 4, 179 Queen St MELBOURNE Vic 3000
(GPO Box 1114 MELBOURNE Vic 3001)
DX 305 Melbourne Tel:(03) 9672-5608 Fax:(03) 9670-8883
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
O/N VT1116
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS COMMISSION
SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT LACY
AG2001/3630
C2001/1368
APPLICATION FOR CERTIFICATION
OF AGREEMENT
Application under section 170LK of the Act
by CPSU, The Community and Public Sector Union
and Another for certification of the Fulham
Correctional Officers Certified Agreement 2001
AUSTRALASIAN CORRECTIONAL
MANAGEMENT PTY LIMITED
and
CPSU, THE COMMUNITY AND PUBLIC SECTOR
UNION - SPSF GROUP, VICTORIAN BRANCH
Notification pursuant to section 99 of the Act of
an industrial dispute re negotiation of a new
agreement for the Fulham Correctional Centre
MELBOURNE
11.00 AM, FRIDAY, 13 DECEMBER 2002
Continued from 12.12.02
PN4605
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, good morning. Sorry about the late start. I understand some people didn't get notice of the time.
PN4606
MR D'ABACO: At this end of the Bar table we were certainly notified and I think my learned friend was as well.
PN4607
MR CRANE: As were we.
PN4608
PN4609
MR D'ABACO: Mr De Moel, you might remember yesterday afternoon just before we finished up we were discussing the response - the search response protocol or procedure, do you remember tha?---I do.
PN4610
And my recollection is that you were giving some evidence in relation to what might happen if you were located in what you refer to as the control room at minimum security. Do you remember tha?---Yes, I do.
PN4611
Now the term "control room" is a term which you utilise isn't it, Mr De Moel?---It is, yes.
PN4612
It is not a term which is recognised within the operating manual, which is in effect at Fulham correctional centre, is it?---I am not aware of it.
PN4613
And it is not a term which is used by management either, is it?---certainly the staff and the manager of each unit, yes.
PN4614
In terms of the senior management those officers of the company who reside in the - or work in the central administration unit, you are not aware of them referring to that particular room as the control room, are you?---I - I couldn't be sure.
PN4615
Now in terms of this particular room there is no monitors or surveillance equipment in it, is there?---Not in this particular room, no.
PN4616
And, if you can take his Honour please through the furnishings of that room. Can you give his Honour please an idea of the dimensions or size of the room?---It is approximately three to four metres wide and eight or 10 metres long.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4617
And it contains a desk?---It contains a desk, yes.
PN4618
It contains a telephone?---A number of telephones.
PN4619
It contains some shelving and filing cabinets for the storage of materials and documents?---That is correct.
PN4620
Does it contain any other material in terms of furnishings, Mr De Moel?---It includes a stenophone, which allows us to be able to communicate with each of the cottage areas to communicate directly to each of those cottages, and that is what constitutes it as a control room.
PN4621
Is that something akin to what you find in many new domestic homes, what is commonly referred to as an "intercom"?---Yes, it is.
PN4622
You push a button and then somewhere in one of the cottages you will hear a buzz presumably?---That is correct.
PN4623
And I think you would agree with me that it is not a particularly sophisticated or novel piece of equipment is it?---It can be, but it is - it is quite simple, yes.
PN4624
Yes. And you will recall yesterday giving some evidence saying that there are some windows located within this room aren't there?---That is correct.
PN4625
And these are windows which look out on to the grounds surrounding the minimum security cottages?---Part of, yes.
PN4626
nd if you, or someone else is either seated or standing in the room you can look at the window?---Standing, yes. Not so much when you are seated.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4627
Okay. Is there anything in this particular room that distinguishes it from a normal office, in your view?---From a normal office, the - the location of the location is the only difference between that and any other normal office.
PN4628
Thank you. So you would agree with me, wouldn't you, that when you use the term "control room", it has a connotation or a significance which in fact doesn't really apply to the actual utilisation and layout of the room?---No, I still consider a control room.
PN4629
Okay. You will recall also, Mr De Moel, that I was asking you some questions yesterday afternoon in relation to the drug medication program, the methadone and buprenorphine administration program, do you recall tha?---Yes, I do.
PN4630
And my recollection is that your evidence was tha the introduction of this program had a very significant impact upon the activities of the correctional officers and correctional supervisors, do you recall that evidence?---Yes, I do.
PN4631
And you continue to stand by that evidence?---I do.
PN4632
Okay. I think you agreed with me yesterday that in terms of the administration of the medication that occurs on a daily basis?---That is correct.
PN4633
It involves one correctional officer in terms of the escort duties of escorting prisoners to the administer - near the administration unit or a centre where the medication is dispensed?---Only on weekends.
PN4634
And on weekdays?---The prisoners make their own way to the visits area.
PN4635
Right. So there is no escort duties required at all on five days of the week in relation to the medication program?---No, there isn't. No, no.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4636
So on those five days of the week presumably all a correctional officer has to do is to be there, present with the prisoners, while they are waiting for the medication to be dispensed, is that correct?---That is correct.
PN4637
And in terms of the total time which it takes to administer the medication what length of time are we talking about Mr De Moel?---Well that varies because there is a 20 minute waiting period and that commences once the last prisoner has been administered with that medication.
PN4638
When you say a 20 minute waiting period, do you mean that there is a 20 minute waiting period before the next dose of medication is dispensed?---No. What I am saying is if there is 30 or 40 prisoners that require the medication it is when the last prisoner is administered his medication that the 20 minutes commences.
PN4639
And at the end of that 20 minutes what happens?---The prisoners are escorted out of the visit centre into the common area of the plaza and then they can go to their units.
PN4640
And they can go back to their units unescorted, can't they?---That is correct.
PN4641
Now, in terms of its - - -
PN4642
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This probably has nothing to do with anything, but why is there a 20 minute waiting period?---So the medical staff can be sure that the medication has actually gone down in to the stomach.
PN4643
MR D'ABACO: Now, in terms of the actual medication, the methadone, as I understand it is a liquid?---That is correct.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4644
That is poured into a small cup of around 20 mls?---That is correct.
PN4645
And a nurse hands this to a prisoner?---That is correct.
PN4646
And he swallows it?---Yes.
PN4647
Hopefully?---Yes, hopefully.
PN4648
And that is the end of the methadone dispensation in respect of that prisoner, correct?---That is correct.
PN4649
And - - -
PN4650
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So, sorry - say if you have been - if you used 40, a number of 40 prisoners - if there had been 40 prisoners down, is that an exaggeration, you wouldn't normally have that many?---No, there can be up to, for the two administrations, it can be up to 40, yes.
PN4651
So where do they wait while each other person is being given their medication?---The methadone is done first and then the buprenorphine is done secondly.
PN4652
What, they are all given their medication together?---Yes, the methadone - any prisoner that is on methadone goes into the visit centre first, and they are administered their medication and once that last prisoner is issued with his medication of methadone they wait 20 minutes and after that 20 minutes all those prisoners come out of that area and then the prisoners that are going to be administered with buprenorphine enter the visit centre and they go through the same procedure.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4653
And where is the correctional officer when all of that is going on?---All the correctional officers that are designated for that particular program will be in the visit centre monitoring the prisoners to ensure that they don't try and retrieve the medication or in fact have actually stored it in another location on their body.
PN4654
Yes. Right.
PN4655
MR D'ABACO: In terms of the actual number of officers involved in supervising those individuals we are only talking about one officer aren't we, Mr De Moel?---Each officer from each unit, yes.
PN4656
One officer from each unit?---Yes.
PN4657
But it is only one officer who then actually remains to supervisor the actual dispensation of the medication isn't it?---There is - there is one officer with the nurse to ensure that there is no harassment of the - of the medical staff with regards to the distribution.
PN4658
So I take that as a yes?---Yes.
PN4659
Thank you. And you are aware aren't you that when the medication program was implemented or introduced the Department of Justice actually funded Fulham Correctional Centre for the engagement of an additional correctional officer in respect of this program?---I am not aware of tha.
PN4660
You are not in a position to be able to deny that, are you?---I am not, no.
PN4661
If you were to be told in evidence and this effect will be given in due course that a correctional officer position was funded and a correctional officer was engaged to assist in the administration of the program would that cause you to change your views about the potential or the impact that the program has had?---No, it wouldn't.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4662
Now I think you agreed with me that in terms of the dispensation of methadone that involves a prisoner drinking some fluid of around 20 mls?---That is correct.
PN4663
If we turn to the other program which is administered, the buprenorphine, part of the program that simply involves a nurse handing over a tablet?---Powder.
PN4664
Powder, I am sorry. That powder is then swallowed with some water?---Hopefully.
PN4665
And hopefully that is the end of that particular part of the program, is that correct?---Not in all cases, no.
PN4666
Unless you have an exceptional case where a prisoner tries to secret it elsewhere but that is a fairly rare occurrence isn't it?---No, that is quite a common occurrence.
PN4667
Quite a common occurrence is it?---Yes.
PN4668
How common does it occur?---Common enough that prisoners that are caught twice doing it have to actually go into the medical centre and be monitored more closely and if they are found to continue to do it they will be struck off the program.
PN4669
How many times have you overseen the administration of these particular medications, Mr De Moel?---I haven't.
PN4670
You have never done it yourself personally have you?---Not buprenorphine, I haven't, no.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4671
Thank you. In terms of the entire time which is taken for the prisoners to take their methadone or take their buprenorphine I am instructed that you are talking about a period of around an hour to an hour and a half, would you agree with that?---It is possible, yes.
PN4672
So what we are talking about in terms of the administration of this particular program is one correctional officer who has been employed as a result of government funding remaining within the particular area for an hour and a half and you still maintain that has a significant impact and effect upon all the other correctional supervisors and officers do you?---No, I think you have misunderstood what I have actually said. There is one officer who is designated to stand with the medical staff to ensure that there is no harassment of the medical staff. All the other officers designated from the other units to attend the program are patrolling the actual visit centre to ensure that they don't retrieve the medication so each and every one of those officers that are designated for the program from each of those units will attend the visit centre to ensure that the prisoners, once they have received their medication, don't try and retrieve it and that is a very difficult situation to be in.
PN4673
It is true, isn't it, that the officers who come down from their units would only stay in the area where the medication is being dispensed if there was a large number of prisoners from that particular unit actually taking that medication - something in the region of 10 to 15 prisoners. But if not, if there is only two or three prisoners from their particular unit, they will simply stay on their unit, that is the officers will won't they?---No, all the prisoners from every unit will attend the visits area and all officers that are designated for the program will be in the same room.
PN4674
So you are saying that the officers who come down from the units will be in the visitors centre in any event?---That is correct, yes.
PN4675
Because they are supervising other prisoners undertaking other activities?---No, undertaking the same program.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4676
I see. I wonder if I could show you this document please, Mr De Moel. Your Honour this is the current position description for the position of Correctional Supervisor and although I think Mr Johnston's statement which is CPSU3 does contain in the attachments certain position descriptions it doesn't appear to have this one appended. I don't think it needs to be tendered for the present purposes - - -
PN4677
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Very well.
PN4678
MR D'ABACO: - - - but just by way of background, your Honour. Mr De Moel ,have you seen this document before?---Yes, I have.
PN4679
And you would agree with me, wouldn't you, that this is a position description and selection criteria for the position of Correctional Supervisor?---That is correct.
PN4680
Ie your position?---That is correct.
PN4681
Okay. What I would like to do if I can please, Mr De Moel, is take you through each particular aspect of that description and for you to indicate to me whether you agree or disagree with the accuracy of what is contained in the document. If I could ask you to look firstly at the heading, "Primary Objective of the Position of Correctional Supervisor", and read that, would you agree that that is a fair summary of the primary objective of a Correctional Supervisor such as yourself?---Yes, I would agree.
PN4682
I want to take you now if I can please, Mr De Moel, to the individual duties which are contained within it and we will just go through it one by one and I am sorry it is a rather laborious process but bear with me. If you could have a look at 1.1 and the duty there of supervision would you accept that that is a fair summary of that particular aspect of one of your daily duties?---Yes, I would.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4683
If we can turn to 1.2 which deals with the responsibility of interacting with the prisoners and responding to their needs, would you agree that that is a fair summary of what is required?---Yes, I would.
PN4684
You see where it makes reference through to the provision of services, do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN4685
In terms of the provision of services you would agree with me that that will often require you to access the computer equipment which you have given some evidence about over the last couple of days?---Yes, I would.
PN4686
So, for example, if a prisoner asks you for some information you are providing some information services and you access the computer to be able to do that?---Yes.
PN4687
You accept that?---I do.
PN4688
And when it talks about performing that in an appropriate manner in accordance with the legislation and the centre's operating manual. The operating manual makes reference to the computers and the way in which they can be utilised to facilitate the way you do your job. You would accept that?---I would.
PN4689
If I turn then please to 1.3, requiring you to be involved with assisting other unit officers in the management of their case loads. I think yesterday you gave us some evidence about you doing that, didn't you. You haven't had your own case load for the last two and a half years but you do update the IMP files of other prisoners who are as it were allocated to other officers as their case managers?---Yes, and assist other officers with their case loads, yes.
PN4690
Yes. So you would accept that 1.3 is a fair assessment of one of the duties you are required to perform?---I would.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4691
Okay. If I can then take you to 1.4 - perhaps the core function, certainly of the officers - that of maintaining the dynamic and static security requirements. Would you agree that 1.4 is a fair synopsis or summary of what you do in that particular aspect of your activities?---I would.
PN4692
If you turn to 1.5, the undertaking of searches and performing escort duties. You would accept that is a fair summary?---Yes.
PN4693
If I turn then to 1.6, supervising and coordinating other custodial staff - officers. You would accept that is part of your role as supervisor?---Yes.
PN4694
And you accept that that is a fair summary of what you are required to do in that aspect of your job?---Yes, I do.
PN4695
Okay. 1.7 then deals with the development, implementation and maintaining of procedures for efficient operation of the particular unit. Would you accept that that is a fair summary of one aspect of your job?---Yes, I would.
PN4696
And you would agree with you - that part of the maintaining of procedures again requires you to make use of various computer systems, the PIMS, the ITAS and so forth?---It may.
PN4697
If you then turn to 1.8 - ensuring prompt and appropriate assistance to prisoners. You would accept that is part of your job?---Yes.
PN4698
Is that a fair summary of that aspect of your job?---Yes.
PN4699
If you then turn over the page to 1.9, which deals with interpretation and implementation of procedures and policies, is that a fair summary in your view of that aspect of your job?---Yes, it is.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4700
And would you agree with me if I was to say that part of that interpretation and implementation will actually often require you to deal with the various computer programs?---Yes.
PN4701
Okay. If I turn then to 1.10 - monitoring and suggesting improvements. Is that an aspect of your job?---It is, yes.
PN4702
And you would agree with me that on occasion you might be using the computer system to produce reports and so forth to facilitate that objective?---Yes.
PN4703
1.11 - making decisions - it is necessary to ensure that the facility is operating in an appropriate manner and so forth according to schedules. Do you accept that as a fair summary?---I do.
PN4704
1.12 is probably the corollary of everything else that has gone before. Ensuring compliance with relevant legislation in the operating manual?---Yes.
PN4705
That is a fair summary of one aspect?---Yes.
PN4706
The next - ensuring compliance with Doc Health and Safety and (e) affirmative action requirements. It that a fair summary of one aspect of your role?---Yes.
PN4707
And then finally, the catch-all phrase - any other responsibilities that may be allocated to you. I suppose you have to agree with that but it is a little hard to define what it actually means?---Yes.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4708
Okay. Bearing in mind all of those particular - those particular duties, is there anything that you think is missed out there - anything that you would include which isn't actually encompassed within those 14 paragraphs?---I would say that the inclusion of those duties that we were given as a result of the area managers being put in place consider the unit managers for even though it was for a period of nine months the additional duties and responsibilities that were put upon us whilst the area manager was there and then when the area manager program was ceased we went back to the unit manager, there was duties and responsibilities that were left with the supervisor that I feel aren't in this position description.
PN4709
Well, let's test that, Mr De Moel. If you go to paragraph 7 of your witness statement and I think it is in subparagraph (a) through to (g) where you refer to those particular duties. You see the first one - processing of prisoner application forms, do you see that?---Yes.
PN4710
Wouldn't that fall within paragraph 1.2?---It would.
PN4711
Responding to prisoners' needs?---Certainly it would.
PN4712
Ensuring the provision of services to them in an appropriate manner?---It would, yes.
PN4713
And it falls within that objective, doesn't it?---It does.
PN4714
Okay. If you look at subparagraph (b) - maintaining PIMS, PDS and ITAS for the unit - I think you agreed with me that those computer duties fall within paragraph 1.2?---Not those particular programs. They are not specific to this. What that - what this - what is being said in the position description is, in order for the other programs, apart from the three that are there, right, they are separate to the multitude of other programs that are available on the system itself.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4715
Well, I think the questions I asked you, for example I did refer to when I take you for example to paragraph 1.9 that that might include working on the PIMS and ITAS and I think, from memory, you agreed with me some five minutes ago, didn't you?---I agreed that 1.9 is a part of my duties and responsibilities, yes.
PN4716
And I asked you whether that would involve the performance of duties on computers and involve you looking at computer systems such as PIMS and ITAS and I think you agreed with me, from memory?---I did agree, yes.
PN4717
So, wouldn't then subparagraph (b) fall into part of the duties which are outlined in 1.9 of the position description?---Not when I was an acting supervisor and then became a full time permanent supervisor, no.
PN4718
Okay. Subparagraph (c) - enquiries in relation to the community custodial permit program - that falls within 1.2 doesn't it, Mr De Moel, providing a service to the prisoners?---It does, yes.
PN4719
Now, the financial reporting function. I think you agreed with me yesterday that you don't - you never have had any involvement in the setting of any budgets?---Not the setting of any budgets, no.
PN4720
And I think you will agree with me that even the unit manager doesn't set the budgets, he has to act within the confines of what he or she is told by administration, doesn't he or she?---Each unit manager needs to prepare reports for up and coming budget meetings as I aware and I have had direct involvement for providing figures based on the unit compiled for the manager so that he can forward them on to the senior management to put forward for the following year.
PN4721
Wouldn't that fall within 1.7, Mr De Moel?---Designing, developing, implementing and maintaining procedures for the effective and efficient of your area of responsibility, ie your unit?---I don't believe it would.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4722
You don't believe it does?---No.
PN4723
If we turn then to the monthly reports - again, I put it to you that that falls into the developing, implementation and maintaining of procedures - one procedure being the monthly reports which have to be submitted?---No, I don't believe it does, either.
PN4724
Okay. So, with the exception then of what you say was a change in duties and I think you said it was for nine - only for nine months because you have acknowledged that the area managers did become appointed on to the unit, that is what you would add to this position description, is that what you are saying?---I am sorry, could you repeat that.
PN4725
I think what you said was that you - if I take you back to the position description you would generally agree with paragraph, well you would agree with paragraphs 1.1 through to 1.14 but you would add to it additional duties which, you say, you have been undertaking since the area managers were dispensed with, even though after nine months they were put back on?---I am sorry, I don't understand the question.
PN4726
You are satisfied that paragraphs 1.1 to 1.14 of the position description provide a fair summary of what you do?---Yes, I do.
PN4727
The only thing you would add to it, as you say, additional areas of responsibility which you say aren't there, correct?---Yes.
PN4728
And those additional areas of responsibility are those which are outlined in paragraph 7 of your witness statement?---That is correct.
PN4729
Which you say have changed after the area managers were dispensed with?---That is correct, yes.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4730
Even though you acknowledge that after nine months the area managers came back on to the unit - the unit managers, I am sorry, came back on to the unit?---Yes.
PN4731
Are you aware of whether there has been any dissatisfaction expressed by the correctional supervisors about this position description?---I am aware of supervisors acknowledging to me the same concerns that the duties and responsibilities that are now placed upon them is over and above their position description.
PN4732
You haven't expressed any concerns to the training manager about that, have you, Mr De Moel?---I haven't, no.
PN4733
And in fact you are not aware of any other correctional supervisors expressing their dissatisfaction to the training manager are you?---No, I can't say.
PN4734
And the reason for that is because there has not been expressed any dissatisfaction to the training manager about the position descriptions has there?---I don't know.
PN4735
Your Honour, I might tender that document.
PN4736
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Any objections to those?
PN4737
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4738
MR D'ABACO: Mr De Moel, you will remember that yesterday we went through in some detail with - through your witness statement on what you said were the significant changes to your job since you became a Correctional Supervisor, do you recall that?---Yes, I do.
PN4739
And you will recall I think, if we go to paragraph 4 that I took you in some detail through each of the particular subparagraphs (a), (b) and (c), do you recall that?---Yes, I do.
PN4740
I just want to take you through that again, but not in anywhere as much details as we did yesterday just to clarify one or two matters if I may. Subparagraph (a) deals with strip searches and cell searches, doesn't it?---It does, yes.
PN4741
And all of these changes are changes which you say have taken place as a result of the implementation of double-ups?---An increase in, yes.
PN4742
And the consequential increase in prisoner numbers?---Yes.
PN4743
Is that correct?---Yes.
PN4744
Now, I think you agreed with me yesterday that while the - you say, and this is something where I think we are probably not going to agree, but I accept what you evidence is, you say that because there are more strip searches and cell searches you have more work to perform?---Yes.
PN4745
But I think you agreed with me yesterday that the actual nature of a strip search hasn't changed?---No.
PN4746
Nor has the nature of the cell search changed has it?---The nature hasn't, no.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4747
And if I then take you to subparagraph (b) in terms of the case load I think you volunteered the information yesterday that you haven't had a case load yourself personally for some two and a half years?---Since I was in L7, yes.
PN4748
Yes. Okay. But from your knowledge you were aware of what was involved for a Correctional Officer having a case load?---Yes, I do.
PN4749
And the evidence you gave is that there has been an increase in the number of prisoners and an officer may be allocated on his case load?---That is correct.
PN4750
But in terms of the actual work performed by the prisoner in handling his case load, that hasn't changed in terms of the duties and responsibilities has it?---That hasn't changed. That hasn't changed, no.
PN4751
If I then take you to subparagraph (c) which talks about the accessing and making entries onto PIMS, PDS and ITAS, in terms of your role as a Correctional Supervisor there is more of that work now?---A lot more, yes.
PN4752
And that is because you have got more prisoners?---No, that is because we never did access those programs.
PN4753
Right. But so you are saying that that is a different duty - a different responsibility, are you?---I am, yes.
PN4754
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is it confined to you as a supervisor, is it?---Not just to me, but to staff as well. That is, Correctional Officers, yes.
PN4755
MR D'ABACO: But though the work as you say is not confined to you, certainly your degree of responsibility in terms of the entering entries and so forth is of a greater nature than it is for Correctional Officers, isn't it?---It would be, yes.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4756
If I can then take you to one of the other areas you dealt with in some degree which is the devolution of duties and responsibilities and in particular paragraph 7, we have dealt with that. I think you have accepted didn't you that the processing of prisoner application forms clearly falls within your position description?---Yes, but not signing off on them.
PN4757
Well, you still had a certain degree of control, did you not, in the past, in terms of those application forms?---The processing of the application forms takes a prisoner's request and for him to sign off on it, it then takes - it may take an offer to make comment on it and sign off and in the past it was then handed to the manager of the unit and in a lot of circumstances now it is handed on to the supervisor to sign off and pass on.
PN4758
And that involves you having to make a decision?---That is correct.
[11.30am]
PN4759
Exercising your judgment?---Yes.
PN4760
And that is something which falls within paragraph 1.11 of your position description, making decisions as necessary?---Yes, but the - - -
PN4761
Part of your role as a supervisor, isn't it?---It is, yes.
PN4762
And that has always been part of the role of a supervisor, making decisions, isn't it?---Yes - no, not to sign off on those forms, because the forms clearly state that it is to be a signature from the manager, not the supervisor.
PN4763
You haven't actually pointed us to any particular forms where you say that has changed, have you?---I haven't had any forms with me, no.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4764
No. You didn't attach any to your witness statement?---No.
PN4765
No. Okay. If I can then move please, Mr De Moel, to paragraph 12, drug detection, which we dealt with yesterday afternoon and the beginning of this morning. I think you conceded yesterday afternoon that certainly the opening paragraphs of paragraph 12, in terms of the new drug detection and treatment initiatives, was a concern at the time when you prepared the statement, but because of the additional funding which has been provided now by the government that is no longer a concern. Do you accept that?---Sorry. Could you repeat that?
PN4766
I think you conceded yesterday that while paragraph 12 was correct at the time when you prepared this statement, back in August - - -?---Yes.
PN4767
That since that period of time you have seen the additional funding which has come through from the Victorian government. Or you have been - become aware of it?---Only since this hearing.
PN4768
And I think you conceded yesterday that in those circumstances, when you say there has been a significant impact on the work of supervisors and officers, you no longer wish to maintain that. That is correct, isn't it?---No, it is not correct.
PN4769
No, it is not. That is not what you said yesterday afternoon?---No. I stand by it.
PN4770
All right. And we have dealt with the medication program earlier today, in terms of what that involves?---Yes.
PN4771
And, from what I understand, the involvement of the correction officer and the correctional supervisors, if they are involved, is one of maintaining the dynamic and static security essentially, isn't it?---For the distribution of the two programs. Yes.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4772
It is an escort duty, isn't it?---No. It is a monitoring duty.
PN4773
But still one of maintaining dynamic security?---It is.
PN4774
Part of what correctional officers have always done?---Not for this program they haven't. It has been over and above what they normally do.
PN4775
Well, if they are looking at the administration on the medication, or if they are looking at something else, it doesn't really change the essential function of what they are doing, does it?---It does, because it is another added program that stretches the resources of every unit where an officer has to respond to those two programs.
PN4776
No. What I am asking you to do, Mr De Moel, is actually focus upon the activity which the officer is actually undertaking. He is observing. Now, whether you are observing medication being dispensed, or whether you are observing prisoners in a rec yard, it is still the same activity, isn't it?---Not when it comes to the distribution of methadone and buprenorphine, no.
PN4777
Because they are looking at a different thing?---It is - it takes a - it takes a lot of practise and skill to determine if a prisoner is trying to retrieve the medication, and it is not something that is done easily.
PN4778
You mean, you look at his face or you look at his throat, do you?---Well, very much so.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4779
Yes?---And if I may explain some of the - the circumstances where they can either retrieve or not actually take the medication. If they take the methadone and they swallow it quickly, the officer has to actually be almost face to face with them, because they tend to either have a plastic bag in under here, and they will go straight like that, and it will look as though they have taken it into their mouth and it will go straight into the plastic bag. When it comes to buprenorphine it is a powder, and they are given a drink of water. They put the powder into their mouth, and the officer sees it goes into their mouth, and they slip it in under their lip in here. They take their water. They allow a little bit of their saliva to go with the powder. And when the moisture comes in with the powder, it can be rolled around into a ball. Now, the officer will look at that, and then that prisoner will go away, be able to roll it up into a solid ball, and either put it in his pocket or pass it on, or even throw it to another prisoner waiting to perhaps - who has already had his medication. So it - when you have got, you know, the prisoners in that location undertaking the medication, the officers have to watch those that are yet to receive their medication, those that are receiving their medication, and each and every one of those prisoners that are waiting for the last prisoner to receive his medication, then wait the 20 minutes while they are viewing each and every one of those prisoners, because it takes a split second for them to retrieve it and either put it in another location, or pass it on to another prisoner.
PN4780
Mr De Moel, you appear to have a very, very detailed and intimate knowledge of how the prisoners can try to thwart the program. You would agree with that?---Yes.
PN4781
You have never supervised it once, have you?---Not the buprenorphine, no. But that doesn't mean - - -
PN4782
And you do that because of having spoken with the other officers and what they have told you?---Certainly. And reports that have been given to me by officers in my capacity as acting shift manager.
PN4783
It is a matter of closely observing, isn't it?---Very much - very much so. Very close.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4784
And all correction officers, as part of their training, are trained in observational skills. That is correct?---Yes. That is correct.
PN4785
So, what I am putting to you is that essentially, what they are doing, the correction officers are doing when they are involved in the program, is nothing more than what they have been trained for from day one?---Well, they weren't trained for the monitoring of those - the distribution of those two programs. No.
PN4786
Because they are observing something which you say is a little bit different?---A lot different.
PN4787
Okay. We have just gone through the various changes, and I think probably fair to say, and please correct me if I am wrong. But a lot of what you have mentioned here in your statement talks about increased workload and increase number of activities. Would you accept that?---I would, yes.
PN4788
I think to be fair to you, we are talking about changes. The real changes you say relate to the computer duties and so forth, don't they?---For a supervisor, yes.
PN4789
Yes. Now, in paragraph 15 of your witness statement you say that in your believe the salary rates don't reflect the substantial changes that have taken place, do you - don't you?---Yes, I do. Yes.
PN4790
Are those your words, Mr De Moel?---They certainly are.
PN4791
You have used the words "substantial changes"?---Yes. They are my words.
PN4792
Have you seen the witness statements which have been prepared in this matter on behalf of other witnesses?---Yes, I have viewed those.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4793
Have you seen the statement of Mr Shorter?---I don't believe I have. No.
PN4794
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr who, sorry, was that?
PN4795
MR D'ABACO: Mr Shorter, your Honour. He is the next witness.
PN4796
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Thank you.
PN4797
MR D'ABACO: I think in - well, I can tell you that in paragraph 11 of his witness statement he refers to his not believing that:
PN4798
The salary rates contained in the Fulham Correctional Officers Certified Agreement reflect the substantial changes that have taken place in the nature of duties and responsibilities of correctional officers.
PN4799
That is almost word for word what you say in paragraph 15 of your statement, isn't it?---It would appear that way.
PN4800
It is a bit of a coincidence that in separate statements, if it is your own words, you use exact identical words, isn't it?---It is a huge coincidence.
PN4801
Yes. Have you had a look at Mr van Dyke's witness statement?---No, I haven't.
PN4802
Would you like me to take you to that one?---Yes. If you would.
PN4803
I have got the wrong one. Sorry. If I can take you to Mr Battley's statement. In the final paragraph of his witness statement Mr Battley also refers to:
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4804
The substantial changes in the nature of the duties and responsibilities undertaken by the correctional officers and correctional supervisors.
PN4805
You would agree with me that that is almost the identical wording to what you have used in the final paragraph of your statement?---It would appear so.
PN4806
And it is almost the identical wording to which has been used by Mr Shorter in his statement?---It appears so.
PN4807
Is that another amazing coincidence?---I believe it is.
PN4808
Yes. I am not suggesting there is anything wrong with it, Mr De Moel. All I am putting to you is this. That the wording that you have used, "substantial changes," is wording which was suggested to you by your union, the CPSU, isn't it?---No. Certainly not.
PN4809
It is not?---No.
PN4810
So you maintain that three witnesses have just happened to use the exact same phrase and the exact same words, and that is just a huge coincidence?---What I am saying is that the paragraph 15 is a paragraph - as the whole document is, is my wording, and it is me that has put those words in. And it is me that has signed off on it. And they are my words and no-one else's.
PN4811
I am not suggesting they are not your words. All I am putting to you is this, Mr De Moel. That the reason the words are there is because they were suggested to you by the CPSU or their solicitors?---No. No, it is not.
PN4812
No further questions thank you, your Honour.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL XXN MR D'ABACO
PN4813
PN4814
MR LAWRENCE: Could the witness be shown ACM8 please? Now, my learned friend took you to this, Mr De Moel. Do you recall that?---Yes, I do.
PN4815
Okay. Now, in relation to the duties, you see at 1.1?---Yes.
PN4816
What I want to ask you in relation to a number of these dot points, Mr De Moel, is to compare the degree of responsibility and work that you now undertake, as opposed to the introduction of double-ups, and the process of devolution of functions. In relation to 1.1, how would you describe the difference in responsibility and workload pre-double-ups, and devolution, post-double-ups and devolution?---Certainly the - to supervise the behaviour and activities of prisoners dramatically increased as a direct result of the double-ups and the devolution of duties, as the activities of the prisoners and their behaviour dramatically increased as a direct result of the double-ups. And including the devolution of duties. My duties and responsibilities were stretched to a point where I was in positions, physically, meaning an office rather than being out with the staff, doing exactly what it says here, which is to supervise the behaviour and activities of prisoners.
PN4817
You are saying you were - as a result of the devolution, do I take it from that you were saying you weren't on the floor as much, so to speak?---That is correct.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL RXN MR LAWRENCE
PN4818
What about 1.2? How would you compare pre- and post- in relation to that?---Well, certainly with the devolution of duties, interact with prisoners and respond to their needs became less a situation with regards to the supervisor as they were involved in other tasks, and it left - left the supervisor to undertake the duties of the manager of the unit, who - or area manager. To undertake those duties. And it was very - well, it certainly wasn't common for the prisoners to come up and see the supervisor because they were just too busy doing other duties, at that particular time. Provisions of services. As best you could, but again, you know, the times were stretched so thinly that obviously with the paperwork, the facts and figures of the day which needed to be submitted by the end of the day, including charges that were raised and charges that were heard, had to be dealt with by the end of the day. Now if it had have been a - which is again, a direct result of the double-ups, generated so much more paperwork because of the increase of the prisoner numbers. The supervisor was more and more often in the office and not able to provide the services in an appropriate manner, as it is stated in 1.2.
PN4819
All right. What about 1.3? Again, comparing the situation pre-double-ups and devolution, and post-double-ups and devolution?---Well, certainly with both those situations, the double-ups and the devolution of duties, I often had complaints from the staff, because I was basically stuck in an office going through the paperwork that was normally done by a manager. And then having the double-up situation where the paperwork quantity increased dramatically, it meant that I was in the office dealing with that, with that paperwork and was unable to assist the other officers in a lot of cases. Whether it be in the management of their case load, or out on the floor.
PN4820
Whereas the situation that existed pre-double-ups and devolution?---Certainly the supervisor was a lot more on the floor, was able to assist other officers in their duties, and was able to monitor the prisoners, both from the control area and also out on the floor.
PN4821
What about - if I take you to 1.5:
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL RXN MR LAWRENCE
PN4822
Undertake searches and perform escort duties of prisoners, both within the centre and externally when required.
PN4823
?---Okay. Pre-double-ups, it was quite common for the supervisor to be able to undertake searches and perform escort duties, both within the centre, not so much externally. But certainly post-double-ups and the devolution of duties, it was very, very rare. In fact, I don't think I have - I mean, a supervisor just wouldn't have the time to be involved in that, because their paperwork had increased because of the area manager program. But also because the increase of the prisoner numbers generated that much paperwork that the supervisor was never able to assist the staff in the search of cells.
PN4824
All right. Now, the contrast again, pre- and post-, in relation to 1.6:
PN4825
Supervise and co-ordinate other custodial staff assigned within the area of responsibility.
PN4826
?---Well again, it is - it was an area where, you know, the officers would quietly complain that I was never around, that, you know, I wasn't there when they needed me. With day to day running. I am not talking about emergencies. With the day to day running of the unit from - from the floor where the prisoners come in for requests for a number of things. For their cell searches, for the urine testing, and the like. That was particularly evident when we had new staff that had come on line, so they have done their training program, and quite often it would be the supervisor that would be with them, to show them how to undertake duties within the unit. The differences between one unit and another, or what they have been trained for. We all agree that the training only gives you a basic level, and the rest of the training is done on the floor. Well, the supervisor was able to be with those - those staff that have come new, on-line, to be able to assist them with being familiar with the duties and responsibilities on the floor. And as a direct result of the devolution of duties and the double-ups, the supervisor had a less and less opportunity to be able to provide that service to that - to that staff member, or staff members.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL RXN MR LAWRENCE
PN4827
Right. Now, what about 1.7:
PN4828
Develop, implement and maintain procedures for the effective and efficient operation of the area of responsibility in consultation with the correctional manager.
PN4829
?---Pre-double-ups and pre-devolution of duties, a supervisor would be able to approach the manager with nuts and bolts issues that needed to go to a higher level, to be able to identify problems with the day to day running of the unit, or a particular prison - prisoner, or a group of prisoners. With the devolution of duties, post-devolution of duties and the double-ups, the amount of paperwork that was generated, and the number of - the increase in prisoner numbers meant that that fell onto the supervisor, and in a lot of cases the supervisor - it was sort of left with the supervisor, because the area manager, when I was in L7, the area manager managed L7 and L10, and at the time was also, I think, the acting operations manager. So we saw very little of him. So not only was it me, as a supervisor, trying to, you know, obtaining this from the officers, but having to deal with it. Whereas before it would be forwarded on to the unit manager who - then went to area managers. That certainly fell within me, and whenever the area manager happened to be in my unit I would try and put those issues forward. But then the area manager had other - other issues to deal with, with regards to that particular unit, and the other unit, and the other area of his responsibility, that those sorts of issues quite often just got left at the bottom of the pile.
PN4830
In relation to 1.7, how would you compare the degree of responsibility that you are now required to exercise, in relation to that function, pre- and post-devolution and double-ups?---Well certainly pre-double-ups there was - there was enough - there was - all the staff were comfortable with - I think they would be comfortable with - if they had a full complement of staff, to be able to manage the 102 prisoners that were in their unit. When we went to double-ups and the - even though we had the extra staff member, the increase in - in prisoner numbers meant that it was very difficult to maintain procedures. Because we would be monitoring the prisoners, because there was a lot of tension, not only between the officers and the prisoners but from the prisoners
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL RXN MR LAWRENCE
amongst themselves. So a lot of the - a lot of the time that the staff were involved with was purely monitoring the prisoners. And it was difficult to maintain the procedures, and to - and to be effective in implementing the procedures and the policies of the centre.
PN4831
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Was the increase in the staff numbers, in those numbers that you were taken to yesterday - perhaps I will just show you what I am referring to. This was attachment JRM2 to Mr Myers' statement. You agreed yesterday that those numbers reflected the situation as you understood it. Was the increase in staff numbers coincidental with the double-up - introduction of double-up?---Initially, when we went from 102 to 112, when we had the Town Hall meeting, the general manager informed us that each unit would be getting an additional staff member. And then we went from 112 to the other subsequent increases as a direct result of the double-ups, with no extra officer. So - and if - - -
PN4832
So the first lot of double-ups you got was coincidental with the increase in the number of staff?---Yes. Yes, it was, your Honour.
PN4833
But then there were no additional staff when you got the second lot?---That is correct, your Honour.
PN4834
Yes. Sorry for the - - -
PN4835
MR LAWRENCE: And I think the evidence of Mr De Moel, your Honour, in relation to that particular exhibit was that he wasn't sure how it was compiled, but he wasn't - - -
PN4836
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, yes.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL RXN MR LAWRENCE
PN4837
MR LAWRENCE: - - - in a position to be able to dispute it. Now, what about in relation to 1.9, Mr De Moel. Again comparing pre-double-ups and devolution and post-double-ups and devolution?---The implementation of procedures again post-double-ups and post-devolution of duties became very difficult for a supervisor, again, because they were buried so much in the administration side of a unit, which certainly wasn't the case before the double-ups and before the devolution of duties. I mean, as I said, it would be very easy for a supervisor to interpret and implement the procedures and policy in relation to the centre pre-double-ups and pre-devolution of duties. But once those two aspects of a unit came into place it became increasingly difficult for them to be on the floor to implement those policies and procedures.
PN4838
All right. Now, I want you to look at 1.11. And I think the tenor of what my learned friend was putting to you, that a decision is a decision is a decision. Now, I want you to consider 1.11 in the context of pre-double-ups and devolution, and post-double-ups and devolution, in your role as a supervisor, and tell me how those two compare in terms of the level of responsibility associated with that decision-making?---Well, certainly the aspect of pre - if we go back to pre-double-ups and pre-devolution of duties, decisions that a supervisor would need to make would have been decisions that were dealing specifically with his staff, and prisoners as well, in relation to the day to day running of the unit and the prisoners. As we got to the double-ups, if I can take that first, the double-ups. The decision - and which was the most critical time for both staff and prisoners, and the time that we had the most tension amongst the staff and amongst the prisoners, was when they were told directly that they would be going into a double-up cell, and that, as I have already given evidence to, as to the procedure that we would go through, that decision purely laid with the supervisor and not the manager. And that in itself is just one aspect of the double-ups that saw the decision-making aspect of a supervisor's position dramatically rise. With regards to incidents that occurred as a direct result of the double-ups, whether it be continued tension amongst the prisoners as a direct result of the double-ups. Again, there would have had to have been - well, there was decisions made by the supervisor that previously would have gone to, perhaps the manager. And if we go to the devolution of duties, there were decisions then in place that weren't the position of a supervisor that were placed on the supervisor. One of the most critical was the decision of sending a prisoner to solitary confinement for perhaps investigation, or for refusing to
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL RXN MR LAWRENCE
go into a double-up cell. That decision purely laid with the supervisor. And the supervisor then would make a decision that they normally wouldn't have pre-double ups and pre-devolution of duties to send that prisoner to solitary confinement pending investigation. That was always the responsibility of the manager.
PN4839
All right. Thank you, Mr De Moel. You can put that to one side. Can I ask you this? Is the - to your knowledge is the Drug Dog Detection Unit part of Intel?---Yes, it is.
PN4840
It is. And the Drug Dog Detection Unit now undertakes the commissioner list urines. Is that correct?---That is correct.
PN4841
Right. Now, is the - I gather from the tenor of the questions that my learned friend was putting to you, is the Drug Dog Detection Unit perhaps staffed by employees from Mars, or elsewhere, Mr De Moel?---No, they are not.
PN4842
No. Is the Drug Dog Detection Unit staffed by correctional officers?---Correctional officers and a correctional supervisor.
PN4843
Yes. And for those correctional officers in that particular unit, the undertaking of the commissioner list urines, I take it then, was not a duty that they were performing prior to that duty being assigned to them?---No, it wasn't.
PN4844
Now, you gave some evidence yesterday and I just wanted to go to this with you. And you didn't get a chance to finish your question, but it was in relation to prisoner disturbances and decoy actions by prisoners for an event happening elsewhere. Do you recall that?---Yes, I do.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL RXN MR LAWRENCE
PN4845
And you were going on to say that in your knowledge this had - had not happened in cottages, but you were going on to say it had happened elsewhere. Can you elaborate on that for me?---Certainly. Often prisoners will use a decoy. For example, they will have two prisoners pretending to fight, and officers will identify that and call a CERT. The CERT response to that particular location, the prisoners know full well that the staff in other areas would be involved in securing prisoners away, in moving prisoners on. They know that there will be staff members from other units responding to the CERT call, and it is used as a decoy for another - another incident that they want to create, whether it be a drug deal, or whether it be a stabbing or a bashing. So that is used quite often for - in fact, it has been the case that we have had a CERT call in one particular unit, where the officers have responded to that particular unit. And then they have been able to orchestrate another decoy in another unit, so that then there is a second CERT call. And then there is a split of the staff, and they have got to determine which is the greater, which is most difficult given that it is an open plan prison. So the decoy is used as a tool. If prisoners want to, for instance, perhaps move a quantity of drugs, or whether they want to have staff involved in other aspects so that they can't be detected, for instance, attacking another prisoner.
PN4846
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And how often would that occur?---Well, certainly, in the unit it - it is my experience that that has happened on a number of occasions. The deploy where - where there is assert response in one location then assert response in another location, to my memory, has happened two or three times I think.
[12noon]
PN4847
Now, my learned friend asked you some questions about IMP files and the updating of IMPs files. Is it a mandatory requirement, Mr De Moel, that IMP files must be updated at least monthly?---Yes, it is.
PN4848
My learned friend asked you as to - put a proposition to you that it doesn't necessarily have to be a formal interview with a prisoner to update the IMP file. Do you recall that?---I do, yes.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL RXN MR LAWRENCE
PN4849
Well, to your knowledge what is the general practice in relation to the updating of the IMP files?---Well, certainly, when - when an officer receives a new caseload there is a requirement to have a formal interview so that the officer can go through that file with the prisoner to ensure that every - each and every aspect of his file is up-to-date and if - if there is any issues that that prisoner wishes to - to comment on, or familiarise the new case officer with. Now, what happened in L7 was we would get a lot of movements through the unit. We could get a - a movement of up to 15 to 20 prisoners a day. That is 15 to 20 new prisoners coming into our unit. Each and every one of those has an IMP file and each and every one of those is allocated a case officer. Now, that would mean that the case officer would need to interview those prisoners to ensure that their - their file was up-to-date and the prisoner knows who their case officer is. And then the next day the officer will, you know, let us say for argument's sake he has received two new on his caseload and he comes to work the next day and he may have three new ones on his caseload. Because in our - in that particular unit, as is the induction unit, there is - there is a large flow of prisoners through the unit.
PN4850
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Just remind me, if you would, what does IMP stand for?---Individual management plan.
PN4851
And what does PIMS stand for?---Prisoner Information System.
PN4852
MR LAWRENCE: All right. Now, do you recall you were being asked some questions about the implementation of double-ups at Fulham, Mr De Moel?---Yes, I do.
PN4853
And you were asked questions about whether there was any stopwork action or strike action in relation to the implementation of those double-ups?---Yes, I do.
PN4854
Let me ask you this, was there any concern - to your knowledge - amongst correctional staff after those double-ups were introduced?---Yes, there was, amongst the staff there was. Yes.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL RXN MR LAWRENCE
PN4855
And what in particular did those concerns focus on, to your knowledge?---I don't - I don't think that the staff - the staff were very apprehensive. Even - even though management said we would get an additional staff member, the staff were very apprehensive about the introduction of double-ups. Not only for the increase in prisoner numbers but they immediately recognised that there would be a dramatic increase in the tension amongst the prisoners because they knew full well that the prisoners wouldn't accept going into a double-up cell. And subsequently from that, when we had the additional increases as a direct result of the double-ups, the - the officers were concerned. However, the officers took it to task in relation to the double-ups and as I have already said I am not aware of any written complaint with regards to it. There may or may not be. But that - that is because all the staff were concerned for their position, and especially those that were on casuals. Casuals within the centre were terrified that if they were to stand up and speak against the double-ups and the fact that it had increased - not only increased the prisoner numbers but it increased the workload and to increased the tension amongst the prisoners - that their casual position at the centre would become very casual and those that were on a 12 month contract would - would cease after 12 months. So they were very reluctant to say anything about it, officially, to management.
PN4856
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What criteria is used for determining who will double-up?---There is no criteria, your Honour. It is - if a prisoner comes into the unit they automatically go to a double-up cell unless - unless there is mitigating circumstances which has to be proven by documentation. And that might be a medical condition or a condition of - of religion where it can be proven that they - they are required to be on their own.
PN4857
Well, does that mean seniority in terms of service plays some part in determining who gets double-up cells?---No, it doesn't, your Honour.
PN4858
Well, when you say when they come to a unit they automatically get a double-up cell - - - ?---That is correct.
PN4859
- - - that means the newer people get a double-up cell?---Yes, your Honour.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL RXN MR LAWRENCE
PN4860
But are they necessarily put in with people who have been there the longest serving - the longer serving prisoner?---That is possible. That is possible, your Honour, yes.
PN4861
MR LAWRENCE: Is it possible in these days, Mr De Moel, for a prisoner to come in through induction, be assigned to a unit and for that prisoner to be assigned to a single cell?---I don't believe it is. No. No. The - the process, as far as I am aware, still - still continues exactly the same where because you would have all the single cells filled to capacity because all the prisoners want a single cell.
PN4862
Yes?---So that only leaves double-up cells. You wouldn't have vacant single cells in a unit. So the only vacancies would be a double-up cell.
PN4863
What about the position where two new prisoners come in through induction and they are offered the opportunity to share a cell together, and you are aware of the evidence of ACM witnesses in this proceeding that say - that effectively go to this issue that prisoners are given an opportunity to, in effect, buddy up with someone?---Certainly, if the prisoners come into a unit and they say, "Look, you know, if I have got to share a double cell I am mates with him, do you mind if we go into a cell together?" And as best as - as possible, the staff of that unit will try and accommodate that so as not to increase any tension amongst the prisoners.
PN4864
All right. Now, just going back to the IMP file issue, you gave some evidence and then my friend moved on to another topic. But you started to say that in L7 your caseload was reduced down to two after double-ups because the - I think the words were the "unbearable workload"?---That is correct.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL RXN MR LAWRENCE
PN4865
What did you mean by that?---Prior to the double-ups, supervisors had no caseload at all. When - when the initial double-ups occurred the increase in the caseload, being 10, were distributed amongst the correctional officers. With the subsequent double-ups that the - the caseload on individual officers was - was too great. But that was only after a considerable time that - that the staff really - you know, the supervisors had obviously listened to the concerns of the - of the officers in saying, "Look, I have got such a huge caseload that I am finding it increasingly difficult to maintain my caseload and undertake my duties. And it was then that it was decided that the supervisors then would take some of that pressure off - and by taking on a caseload themselves.
PN4866
Now, you were asked about the issue of free weights, do you recall that, in the gymnasium area?---Yes, I do.
PN4867
Yes. And you were asked in particular, I think, whether there had been - you were aware of any assaults through the use of free weights in the gym, all that?---That is correct.
PN4868
And I think your answer to that was "no"?---Not that I was aware of, no.
PN4869
Are you aware of any assaults in the gym other than with free weights?---Most definitely.
PN4870
Now the - what role does the instructor that is in the gym play in relation to ensuring security within the gym area?---The instructor plays no role in - in security within that gymnasium. The instructor is there purely to offer programs to the prisoners, whether it be a weight program, whether it be a physical fitness program, whether it be to organise basketball matches or volleyball matches, for - for swimming instruction and the like. The instructor has no duty or responsibility that relates specifically to security.
PN4871
Now, you were asked some questions also by my learned friend about unplanned escorts. And I think two examples were cited, being hospital and medical and unplanned Court appearances. Do you recall those questions?---Yes, I do.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL RXN MR LAWRENCE
PN4872
Are there any other reasons as to why there might be unplanned escorts, Mr De Moel?---There has been occasions where there has been an emergency CCPP leave for a member who is about to die. And usually - usually CCPP programs are - are applied for by the prisoner. They then need to go through a review and assessment committed and it needs to be approved by that committed. And that can take, you know, a couple of days so it is - it is usually planned. But there has been occasions where there has been a sudden incident outside of the prison with regards to family members where that process has been undertaken and completed within the day, or within a half day, in order for that prisoner to be able to attend, perhaps, his dying mother or his father or even his child.
PN4873
Right. Thank you. Now, just in relation to L7, I think you were asked questions about the average daily number of prisoners there and I think you agreed that the daily average of - was around 126 when you were there. Is that correct?---Yes. That is - that is a figure that - that I have put in my statement. We were predominantly full capacity but there were occasions where we would be slightly under so the figure that I came up with, of 126, I felt was - was reasonable to put a figure to. But predominantly we were at full capacity and that was 132.
PN4874
Thank you. Now, going back to the issue of escorts - and particularly escorts in the evening - you gave one example where escorts are required for band practice and then my learned friend moved on to another topic. But I think from the tone of your evidence band practice is not, I take it, the only basis for an escort in the evening that may be necessary?---No, certainly not. There is a lot of - well, what I would probably consider as unplanned escorts. And that is if a - if a prisoner has an ailment and needs to attend the medical centre that - that prisoner needs to be escorted, each and every time. If - if, for instance, they need to attend the shift office for the signing of a - of a - either an ombudsman's letter - if it was after - after a lock down period, attend the shift office to sign for a letter, perhaps, from the ombudsman or have some official document there that he needs to personally pick up, that prisoner then would need to be escorted to - to the shift office. If there is a prisoner that has a job which commences outside of the time of lock - of the curfew muster, taking for instance we have prisoners that are painters. And they - they may paint sections of the centre that can only be done once the prison population is - is under restricted movement after that curfew muster. They then need to be escorted to those particular sites and then when their job is finished be escorted back to their - to their relevant units.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL RXN MR LAWRENCE
PN4875
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But escort work would have been something that has gone on ever since you were a correctional officer. I mean, you were always engaged in escort work?---Certainly. Certainly, that is the case, your Honour. However, with the increase in the - in the prisoner numbers in the particular units, the requirement for additional escorts to the medical centre and to other programs after the curfew muster is - is what has actually increased.
PN4876
And what does that do? What does that do about the work that you have got, or your responsibility that you have got? I mean, how do you say it impacts, the fact that they have got to do these additional escorts on your - - -?---Well, if we take - if we take for example, your Honour, after 7.30 when the - when you - we have two staff that have gone off shift and we have three staff and a supervisor, if there is a requirement for a prisoner to be escorted and that - that requirement has increased due to the fact of now I have got more prisoners, it places a strain on the officers that are in the unit because it is that last two hours of the evening before they are locked down at 9 o'clock, between 7 and 9 o'clock is really the time that the officers need to be out on the floor observing the prisoners. Because that is - that is quite often the time where assaults will take place, before locking. You know, especially if it has been, perhaps, their canteen day and they haven't been able to pay off a prisoner for - for whatever reason, with cigarettes. They will wait until that last two hours in order to - to enact a payback on that particular prisoner.
PN4877
MR LAWRENCE: All right. Can the witness be shown exhibit JRM3, please.
PN4878
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Which one, sorry?
PN4879
MR LAWRENCE: JRM3, your Honour.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL RXN MR LAWRENCE
PN4880
Now, Mr De Moel, correct me if I am wrong in summarising the evidence that you have given in relation to prisoner assaults, I take it from the evidence that you have given that in the official statistics are assaults that have been formerly reported and where the relevant prisoner has maintained there has been assault and has identified the assailant or the assailants, is that your understanding?---Or - or if a officer identifies it, yes.
PN4881
Yes. But there are a range of assaults, on your evidence, that are not recorded as official assaults but are recorded as either accidents or medical incidents?---That is correct.
PN4882
Now, my learned friend took you to this particular exhibit and you actually agreed with the proposition in looking at that, if my notes are correct, that none of the statistics as evidenced in this particular exhibit bear out the belief of increased assaults as a result of double-ups. Do you recall that?---Yes, I do.
PN4883
Yes. And bearing in mind these are the official statistics only, and on your evidence do not record assaults that are not formal assaults?---That is correct.
PN4884
All right. I want you to look at that graph carefully, Mr De Moel. And I want you to tell me what you see in relation to the official assaults, official assaults figures at or around the introduction of the first lot of double-ups in September 1999?---Yes. I - I see that as being the highest peak in the whole graph.
PN4885
Yes. All right. Now what about in relation to the introduction of the second lot of double-ups in March 2001, the period March, April, May?---There is a - there is an increase there as well.
PN4886
Yes. And what about in October 2001?---Yes, there is an increase there as well.
**** MICHAEL DE MOEL RXN MR LAWRENCE
PN4887
And what about in April 2002?---Yes, there is a spike there that is increased.
PN4888
Do you still adhere to your earlier evidence that these official statistics don't show any increase in prisoner assaults as a result of double-ups?---Well, it does on those particular times, yes.
PN4889
All right. Thank you, Mr De Moel. I have no further questions.
PN4890
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Do you wish for Mr De Moel to be excused?
PN4891
MR LAWRENCE: Sorry, he can be excused, your Honour. Yes.
PN4892
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN4893
PN4894
PN4895
MR LAWRENCE: Now, Mr Shorter, your full name is John Gerard Shorter?---That is correct.
PN4896
And you reside at 15 Chester Court, Traralgon South?---That is correct.
PN4897
And your occupation is a correctional officer at the Fulham Correctional Centre?---That is correct.
PN4898
Now, Mr Shorter, have you prepared two statements for the purposes of these proceedings?---Yes. Yes.
PN4899
Do you have copies of those with you?---No, I don't. No.
PN4900
Your Honour, we don't have a copy of Mr Shorter's statement. I think we will need to get one.
PN4901
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Perhaps I will show these to him. Yes. There are CPSU4 and CPSU10, is that right?
PN4902
MR LAWRENCE: That is correct, your Honour. Yes.
PN4903
Now, Mr Shorter, I understand there is one change that should be made to the document marked CPSU4, and that is paragraph 5. There is a reference there to a date which is 10 March where it should actually be 9 March. Is that correct?---That is correct. Yes.
PN4904
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That was para 5 of CPSU4, was it?
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN4905
MR LAWRENCE: Para 5 of CPSU4, your Honour, yes. 9 March instead of 10 March.
PN4906
Now, Mr Shorter, aside from that change are the contents of those statements true and correct?---Yes.
PN4907
Yes. Is your Honour convenient for Mr Shorter to hold those statements or should we get some copies made in the interim?
PN4908
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No. I have read them and you can - - -
PN4909
MR LAWRENCE: All right. We will get some copies made over the luncheon adjournment, your Honour.
PN4910
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, I will retrieve them when Mr Shorter is finished with them. Yes.
PN4911
MR LAWRENCE: Yes.
PN4912
Now, Mr Shorter, I want to ask you some questions in relation to a statement that has been filed in these proceedings by ACM, and that is a statement of Mr Ward.
PN4913
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: ACM have provided me with a copy of CPSU4 and CPSU10.
PN4914
MR LAWRENCE: You have a copy?
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN4915
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thank you.
PN4916
MR LAWRENCE: I am just referring the supplementary statement of Mr Ward to Mr Shorter, too, your Honour. As your Honour would know, the supplementary statement also incorporates parts of the original statement filed by Mr Ward.
PN4917
Now, Mr Shorter, I want to take you to, first of all, to paragraph 4 of Mr Ward's statement. Sorry, paragraph 8 of Mr Ward's larger statement, that is the first statement. Now at about eight lines down, Mr Ward states that:
PN4918
While all correctional staff had undergone intensive training, practical day-to-day experience was acquired on the job.
PN4919
What response, if any, do you have to that statement by Mr Ward, Mr Shorter?---While I agree that practical day-to-day experience was acquired on the job, I - I don't agree with - that it was the - the initial training that staff had at the Fulham Correction Centre when we started was - or could be even termed as intensive. I spent 11 years in the military, as Mr Ward has, and by no means was it a - a intensive course. It was, I believe, covered the basics of a correctional officer and absolutely not, yes, intensive in my definition of that word.
PN4920
Now, at paragraph 9 Mr Ward states this:
PN4921
I am informed by FCC management and believe that since FCC opened in April 1997 there has bee an 21.4 percent increase in the number of correctional staff.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN4922
What response, if any, do you make to that, Mr Shorter?---The - the 21.4 percent increase is - does - well, personally, I don't believe on the ground that I see that type of increase in staff. I - I would just like to clarify whether that is 21.4 percent of the staff actually starting work on a shift or if that is 21.4 percent of the staff overall. Because when I start work of a morning I don't believe that there has been a 21.4 percent increase in the amount of staff that start work each day. So I can't agree with that statement.
PN4923
Now, at paragraph 10 Mr Ward states:
PN4924
The introduction of double-ups, two prisoners sharing one cell or bedroom, was undertaken with full consultation with staff.
PN4925
I want to ask you what your response is in relation to that statement, both in terms of the initial introduction of double-ups and the subsequent introduction of further double-ups?---Initially, with the double-ups, there was what they call town hall meetings, where all the staff - well, not all the staff, all the staff that are at work that day attend a meeting. It was - normally Mr Myers would come down and explain what was going on at that meeting to the staff and questions were asked and answered. Okay. I - I agree with that. But the fact that all the staff were there, no. A large number of staff didn't attend the meetings because they were off duty, nightshift workers. And many staff did come to a meeting and I would talk to them and complain - basically they didn't know what - what was going to happen. It was something that was new, it hadn't been introduced before. So my understanding is - is that, no, I don't believe it was a full consultation. I wouldn't say that, no.
PN4926
What about consultation in relation to double-ups that occurred after the first lot of double-ups?---After the first lot of double-ups? I believe after the first round, when they had the town hall meetings, they just seemed to occur. It was more of a - a, "We are going to - there is another 10 or 15 prisoners coming to the centre." There wasn't even the level of consultation there was initially with the town hall meetings. It just seemed to be a run-of-the-mill sort of process. There was a risk - I believe there was a risk assessment done earlier on that identified some areas that - and there was reporting back to staff but, yes, I couldn't say it was consultation, full consultation with staff. No.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN4927
All right. Well, let me take you to paragraph 11 of Mr Ward's statement. Mr Ward states this, at line 6:
PN4928
Prisoner assaults, while they do occur, are certainly not a frequent or common occurrence.
PN4929
What response if any do you have to that statement by Mr Ward, Mr Shorter?---I would - I would disagree with Mr Ward on that, on that statement. May prison assaults aren't recorded. Okay. I have worked - I have worked in L7. I have worked in the medical unit, twice now for a fair period of time. And I find that a lot of the - a lot of the prisoners will come down and say that they have been - or the latest one is "elbowed in the face" playing football, soccer, walked into a door, tripped over, slipped in the shower. Any range of excuse that they can bring up because, basically, if they admit to an assault then they are put on what is the "the dog" - okay. They are an informer. They are labelled. The prisoner can, even if they - even if they are separated to management unit after an assault the prisoners can yell out to them over the wall and it happens quite often that they are going to get them:
PN4930
It doesn't matter which prison you go to, we will get you.
PN4931
So they are very reluctant to report an assault on themselves from another prisoner. So a lot - a lot of the times while there is prisoners come down with injuries to their face, to their bodies, a lot - many of the times it is not reported as an assault.
PN4932
Well, how would those particular injuries be reported?---They would be a - a medical - basically a medical issue and as far as I know they are not reported. If I see a prisoner come into the medical centre and I believe they have been - they have been assaulted, I can say to a manager:
PN4933
You know, I don't believe this is an injury from a football match.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN4934
But that is my opinion. It is up to the manager where they go from there. The prisoner - - -
PN4935
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But if they have got a broken nose or something like that, you say there is no record made at all?---There is - there is a record in their medical file. We had a prisoner just recently actually came in and he had a broken nose - and I am talking in the past two weeks - and he said he fell over and his face hit the ground and the nose was broken. Now, no-one saw what happened. No-one can dispute that that is not what happened. I have seen people on a parade ground hit the ground and break their nose and they certainly come up with more injuries. So personally I thought, no, but that is just my opinion.
PN4936
Right?---And if a prisoner is adamant that he fell over or walked into a door, and no-one has seen what has happened, then what - what to do?
PN4937
But surely there must be some record kept of serious injuries to prisoners, apart from - just because they are assaults you record them, but if they are not assaults you don't record them - is that the case, apart from on their medical record?---I - I couldn't answer that. I - I don't believe that - I believe the only way that they are recorded is as a medical injury. That is - that is the same with the - well, the slipping in the shower. I believe Ms Kase and Mr Duryea, who was the health services manager at that time - and Mr Duryea was the occupational health and safety manager actually did a review of the shower bases in - I believe, it was Hotham unit, because so many prisoners had slipped in the shower. Now, to me - well, you know, I thought it was - it was something they looked into but I don't know what the result of that investigation was. But the thing is, if I can probably just give you a bit of background on that: a prisoner comes down to the - to the management unit or medical area, or even into an officer when you are an officer, the mere fact that he is there and injured talking to an officer arouses interest with the other prisoners. Because basically if he has been assaulted then they basically want to know if he is going to inform on them. All right. Now if he does, he must be protected from that time onwards, taken into the management unit and separated. Okay. And he may be in that management unit for anything up to two to three weeks waiting for a new cell. Due to the overcrowding in the prison system he may be waiting for a new cell in another area, could be in that centre in the management unit for, yes, anything up to three to four weeks.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN4938
Right?---He is not allowed out into the centre. He has a small room and loses a lot of privileges. He doesn't have cigarettes with him, which is a major - a major loss of a privilege for a prisoner. They are issued every two hours but if you are a smoker you would understand every two hours is a long way between cigarettes when you are bored in a prison cell. Okay. The - the other thing is, is even if - even if they report it medically they are reluctant even to go into a medical ward and sit in the medical ward for fear that the other prisoners will think that they have lagged or dogged or whatever. Because that is - that is the end result of being assaulted, that is why they are so reluctant to say, "I have been belted."
PN4939
MR LAWRENCE: All right. Now, Mr Ward also makes reference to the correctional emergency response team, in that paragraph?---Mm.
PN4940
And we have heard some evidence from Mr De Moel, is it correct that that CERT team is composed of officers from these particular units, Mr Shorter?---It is correct that they are composed from the officers of the unit. Normally when I was in Lima 7 unit, on both occasions I acted as a team leader on occasion and also as a CERT 2 team leader. That is there is actually two staff members from the units at the time. That composition has changed. It has been changed every now and again but I believe at the present that is still the case, that two officers in a unit are assigned to the CERT team.
PN4941
And is the CERT team available 24 hours a day?---No, it is not. We can't do it 24 hours a day. That is impossible because of a night shift there is four to five internal security staff. There is not enough to do seven for starters and there is not a CERT response of a night. Once the evening muster lock down occurs that is it, there is no CERT response. All you have got is the internal security staff, which is generally four internal security staff and a shift manager.
PN4942
I see?---And that is it. You have got a person in the control room, a person in external security and myself in management and that is the entire staffing for the centre of a night until 6.30 the next morning or seven, when the managers arrive.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN4943
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But the likelihood of an emergency situation arising during the night is pretty slim isn't it? Everyone is locked down?---Well it depends on what you call an emergency situation. You have lodges accommodation there where you can have up to 12 prisoners. They are not locked in in cells. They are in a room type accommodation. Now if a prisoner in there may feel sick, may fall over in the shower, which has occurred of a night time, a prisoner may have a fit - we have epileptic prisoners there, you have insulin prisoners there. They may be feeling sick, the staff have to open that unit up and go in and get the prisoner out and take him to medical or escort the nurse up there to see the prisoner. Now at that time you are outnumbered. As I say, there are up to 12 prisoners in that one area and yes, generally even eight prisoners is still eight prisoners to five staff and there is no-one else available at that time so to say that it is a CERT response at that time no, we do have a CERT 2 team and I am also a member of that CERT 2 team which is separate to the one that is run during the day but some of those staff members are up to an hour and a half away so they can be called on but yes, who is going to call them?
PN4944
MR LAWRENCE: Now paragraph 13, 13A, Mr Ward states that in relation to strip searches, these are not a daily or regular occurrence. What response, if any, do you have to that, Mr Shorter?---I would disagree with that. I would disagree with that. We strip search prisoners for a range of reasons, from urine analysis, which occurs every day in all of the units, we have prisoners strip searched when they come into the management unit. When they come down there, that is a standard operating procedure; all prisoners must be strip searched. You have prisoners that leave of a morning. They are strip searched prior to putting their own personal clothes on. There is prisoners that come in on the escort that are strip searched. There are prisoners that are strip searched under suspicion. There are prisoners that are strip searched during cell searches. It is at any time, basically, a prisoner can be strip searched. We have to have a good enough reason. You can't just arbitrarily pull a prisoner in and begin but normally it is a suspicion of carrying contraband and with the increased prisoners in the centre and the little groups that meet and the little cliques that they form, that happens quite often. My experience in L7, yes, quite often a prisoner might be out of bounds - okay, you don't know why they are there. They could be just having a cup of coffee with a friend. They are in an area they know is out of bounds so automatically you take them into an office in the unit and they are strip searched.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN4945
I see. Mr Ward, further down in that paragraph, states that the extra person in a cell, in relation to double ups, extends the duration of the search by 10 or 15 minutes. How does that accord with your experience, Mr Shorter?---Once again, I would disagree with that. That is a generalisation. Ideally it would take 10 to 15 minutes but when you are looking for the contraband that we are looking for, it is not large, by any means. You could be looking for something that is not much bigger than a match head. Simply looking through personal papers that a prisoner has, without anything else, just personal papers, you could have a was of envelopes so big. Now I could sit there for nearly an hour going through all those, opening them up, shaking them all out and then we have to fold them and put them back because we are supposed to be leaving everything as we found it. You can't just walk in and trash a cell and walk out, okay? We are required to put everything back. You have also got the initial time when you do the cell search. If the prisoner is in there and acting suspiciously, you would strip search him. If he is not, then it is just a pat search, okay? The prisoner waits outside. Now you may have a confrontation with that prisoner, you know, which means that that could range from anything up to taking the prisoner down to the management unit or the prisoner can just stand outside the door and you know, basically banging on the door and yelling, carrying on and whatever else to slow your progress down. To say that it takes 10 to 15 minutes, no, I disagree with that. With two prisoners in there, in my opinion, virtually doubles it. I am not saying it happens all the time but they are all the things that can happen and yes, 10 to 15 minutes, like I say, I could sit there looking through magazines for 10 to 15 minutes looking for something that is, as I say, so big.
PN4946
And in your experience, where you have got a double up cell and there is property, obviously, of each prisoner in that double up cell, what can than property extend to in terms of what you may find in the cell?---That property could be - well there is a range of - they have a points system at the centre. While I was at Lima 7 there was some prisoners that had large amounts of property, including fans, electrical radio equipment, books, they could have legal documents, photographs, personal papers, clothes, personal clothes, you name it, and that is basically by two prisoners. Generally when they come in they don't have a lot of property but some prisoners that come across from other units, because of the way the unit is, when you are new into the unit, it doesn't matter if you have been in the jail for a long time, if you come from another area they may have had a single cell. We used to put them into a double cell and they had their property with them and yes, it can be quite substantial.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN4947
Yes. All right. Further down towards the end of that paragraph, Mr Ward states:
PN4948
The increase in prisoner numbers may have resulted in correctional officers having to complete one additional urine test per week, which is not particularly onerous.
PN4949
What is your response to that statement, Mr Shorter?---Once again I believe he is - well he has averaged it out and unfortunately, due to being all males in the prison, when I was in L7 we had four female staff so those female staff couldn't be a part of the urine analysis simply because they can't perform a strip search on the prisoner, which is required. There has been talk that they can do the paperwork and all that sort of thing but the way it is now, the legal process is if you start the strip search, you must be in contact with that prisoner the whole time with the bottles that they are given to provide the urine sample so to average it out like that, no, you have got unit managers that don't perform urine analysis. The supervisors don't generally perform urine analysis. It is normally left to the officers to do that, so - - -
PN4950
All right. Paragraph B, Mr Ward states that obviously in his experience, doubling up does not lead to increased stress, tension or conflict amongst prisoners. What response if any do you have to that statement, Mr Shorter?---I disagree with that. I disagree with that. I was in Lima 7 unit when the initial double ups occurred and we had quite a few problems initially with the prisoners and they continued on and I believe they still continue on to this day with prisoners doubled up in a cell. Unfortunately the cells, without being crude, the cells have a toilet in them and the prisoner has very little privacy, okay? That creates tension and aggravation amongst the prisoners. You can have situations where one prisoner wants to use the toilet and can't do so during the night because there is very little air in there. The other situation where you may have one prisoner smokes, one prisoner doesn't, okay? That has caused fights. We have had cases where a prisoner has been incontinent and the prisoner below him wore the results of that and that ended up becoming an assault with one prisoner sent to protection and the other one sent to another jail simply because they were doubled up in that cell. They approached the
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XN MR LAWRENCE
staff and asked to be moved and we had nowhere else to put them because we were running full; we just could not put them in any other cell than a double up cell and the fact is this putting them in with friends and that, that is all okay when you have the cells available but as you know, with the prisons being full and the police cells being full, it is very rare that we had the places available to put them.
PN4951
Now you have worked now in the medical management unit. You have had two stints in there, Mr Shorter?---Yes.
PN4952
From around the end of '99 to March 2000?---Yes, that is correct.
PN4953
And from around May 2001 to the present time?---Mm.
PN4954
Mr Shorter, are you aware of any prisoners being admitted to management for refusal to go into a double up cell?---Yes, that happens, yes. I also - while I have been in there, it has been basically a matter of course that if a prisoner from the induction unit, Lima 4, doesn't want to go into a double cell when they come over to L7 or refuses to even leave Lima 4 to come across to L7 or L10, then that is where they send them because they don't have anywhere else. They can't leave them in L4 and once again because we don't have the space in the centre to accommodate prisoners to go wherever they want to go, then basically they have the option you go to the management unit, they put them in the management unit, which I have said before they don't like, simply because of the lack of freedoms that they have, and once they agree, they tend to go back to Lima 4 and they are given the option again, you can go to L7. They go to a double up cell, they refuse, they go back to management unit. Ultimately the prisoner will either agree to go to a double up cell or the cycle will continue until they do.
PN4955
Your Honour, I was about to move onto something else and I probably have about 10 minutes more with Mr Shorter. Would time would your Honour think about taking the luncheon adjournment?
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN4956
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well I am happy to continue on now, if you want to finish with Mr - - -
PN4957
MR LAWRENCE: Yes. Now Mr Shorter, in subparagraph C on page seven, go down to about line 10 or 12, Mr Ward states that from his experience, a correctional officer can adequately complete a prisoner's IMP by updating it once each week and this should take no longer than 10 to 15 minutes. What response, if any, do you have to that statement, Mr Shorter?---I would disagree with that. Mr Ward, I don't believe, has done IMP files at Fulham Correctional Centre. He is employed there as a manager. I recall him actually being our CERT trainer when we did our course and I don't recall seeing Mr Ward complete IMP files so I can't understand how he could come to that conclusion unless, perhaps, someone may have told him but I believe it is wrong. I believe that there is a lot more to IMP files. Some can be updated in 10 to 15 minutes. There are prisoners that are in a short stint, they don't particularly want to participate and they have only been in the prison system a short while. Other prisoners that have been in the system for quite a long time may be facing parole, they may be going for an appeal at Court, they may have a CCTO, all sorts of reasons. They take a lot more. They may have full time education, could be complete courses. Quite regularly their file has to be updated, notes made, changes made. They may have completed the drug course and urine analysis and their visits are returned so you have got to add to their visitors list. They may have been found guilty of a dirty urine and then they go into what they call a box visit. All that information and updating has to be done to the file and not only that, the prisoner has to be sat down and explained the results of that so to say 10 to 15 minutes and to say in his experience, I would challenge Mr Ward on that because I don't believe he has even done an IMP file. I have never seen him do one so I can't see how he can say that.
PN4958
Now at paragraph six of Mr Ward's supplementary statement, which is the shorter statement of the two, Mr Shorter, Mr Ward states:
PN4959
Weekends, on the other hand, are generally much quieter days.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN4960
What response do you have to that statement of Mr Ward?---Well I disagree with that simply because on a weekend we have visits. Now two staff members attend visits from approximately 8 o'clock in the morning to around 4.30, 5 o'clock in the evening, on both days. So you have five staff members there now and the unit manager has the weekend off so automatically you are down three staff members, okay, during the day. The fact that it is a quieter day, the prisoners don't go to work, that is the only difference. They don't go to their daily employment. In a unit like L7, where there wasn't a huge amount of prisoners employed on a daily basis, it didn't make much difference. You still have to do your urine analysis, you still have to do your cell searches, you still have to do your IMP files. We always found that the hour or two after visits was what we called happy hour in our unit because that is when a lot of deals were made with contraband, drugs entering centres, believed to be through visits. Prisoners that - well, may have been assaulted or fallen over during the football match that they may have had, because of whatever reason. It all tended to happen on those days and we tended to be out about on the floor, so I disagree that it was quieter. I found the weekends, especially later in the afternoons, to be a lot busier than any other time in the week.
PN4961
All right. Well at paragraph seven of Mr Ward's supplementary statement, he says this on the second line:
PN4962
Correctional staff were not forced to complete the certificate.
PN4963
He is here referring to the Certificate 3 in Correctional Practice. Do you see that?---Yes, yes I do.
PN4964
What response do you have to that statement of Mr Ward?---Well Mr Ward is incorrect. I never stated that staff are forced to do this certificate. I stated that they were expected to do it. At the time, we were negotiating an EBA and this Certificate 3 in Correctional Practice, which is a vocational certificate, was brought in and I was one of the officers that was on the pilot program in the unit. Now during negotiations with ACN, there was going to be what was called a classification structure where we had staff that were in the units, staff
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XN MR LAWRENCE
that were in security, security being internal security and anyone that didn't work in the units would do IMPS. Now the company were going to have two different pay scales. If you worked in a unit basically you were paid at a higher rate simply because you did case management in that unit, i.e. IMP files. The staff that were on the internal security were to be paid at a lower rate simply because they weren't doing the IMP files and they were going to put the newer staff into that area. Now it was voted down, that EBA, simply because staff felt that if they couldn't get the Certificate 3 in Correctional Practice, then they wouldn't be allowed to work in the unit, which was one of the requirements to work in the unit. You must have done this certificate. That was the circumstances surrounding that. That is why I added that in my statement. That is no longer the case. The classification system has been dropped as a part of this negotiation and yes, that expectation now, I believe, has eased. I had had phone calls from managers to say to me, asking me when I was going to finish and when I was going to complete it and yes, I believe it was an expectation that was on staff and staff felt that.
PN4965
At that particular time?---At that particular time, yes.
PN4966
All right. Now at paragraph 8 on page two, towards the end Mr Ward states:
PN4967
When correctional staff members are absent, they are replaced by casual or off-duty permanent staff or other staff where necessary.
PN4968
Does that accord with your experience, Mr Shorter?---No, it does not. No, it does not. I would disagree with that. I read here that he disputes that there is a problem with the staff. I can recall going through - as a member of the workplace consultative committee I have brought this issue up on a number of occasions at our committee meetings with Mr Myers and Mr Senior and Mr Prokop and we have discussed staff, staffing levels and also about staff going sick and not being replaced. Now I looked at a shift manager's report, which is done every evening, and it reports basically on the staffing in the centre, who goes sick during the day and I basically went through - I believe it was June 2001. As an example we had, I believe, 55 staff during that month that reported sick for either the full day or part of the day and only 23 of those staff
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XN MR LAWRENCE
were replaced. That was by my calculations, going through the shift manager's report which is, I believe, submitted to management. So I would disagree with that statement. That equates, in my opinion, well to one officer a day, on average.
PN4969
All right. At paragraph nine of the supplementary statement, Mr Ward states:
PN4970
The use and maintenance of computerised systems within FCC remains the responsibility of unit managers. However, both correctional and supervising officers are given the opportunity to not only enhance their understanding of the reporting requirements of the FCC but also develop their skills in the use of the centre's computer programs.
PN4971
Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN4972
What response, if any, do you have to that statement of Mr Ward?---I would disagree that it remains - I disagree that it is the responsibility of unit managers to maintain the systems there. I misunderstand what he means by maintenance. I would say that it would be the actual updating of the programs, I would assume, because everything else is done by an IT specialist and physically was. The staff to update - or the opportunity to enhance their skills is, to me - well I find that difficult to believe because before I began the job, the requirement was a basic level of computer literacy, okay? I was explained that that was to use Microsoft Word program basically to write reports, as required, and nothing else. In the time at Fulham Correctional Centre, I have used programs such as PIMS, ITAS popup, PDS - PIMS and PDS in a limited capacity because I was only a correctional officer and it was password limited but I would disagree that only unit managers maintain and use those systems. I believe supervisors use them quite often and regularly and staff use them quite often and regularly in their daily job and still to do this day.
PN4973
Thank you. Now can I take you just to paragraph 15 of Mr Ward's first statement. 15 paragraph C. In relation to monthly reports, he states - this is towards the end of subparagraph C:
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN4974
As a unit manager, while I was assisted in the collation of data by my correctional supervisor and on occasion by correctional officers, I wrote and submitted the document because ultimately I was accountable for its contents. I do not believe this practice has changed.
PN4975
?---I disagree with that. I can't answer for Mr Ward and the unit that Mr Ward worked in. I have never worked in a unit with Mr Ward as the manager. However, in the unit that I worked in, staff were given an area to report on and to collate the information. Mine was cell searches and equipment in the cells and damage that was done to the cells. I basically taught myself how to do a graph program in Excel and I used to give that every month, the amount of cell searches that were given in the centre; I would give that to the manager and he would that as part of his report and sign off on that. Now these reports were given out every month. Every officer - another officer with me, Mr Kerry Curtis, used to do the urine analysis. Another officer, Ms Perkins, was looking after the cleaning and the stores in the unit and basically everyone was given an area, whether it be the garden, whether it be the cells, equipment. Everyone was given an area, they collated the information, they gave it to the manager at the time and then the manager collated all that and submitted the report to whoever he submits it to; his superiors, I would imagine. So he would sign off on it, okay, and budget for it but we would collate the information and use the programs to do that.
PN4976
Thank you. Now at paragraph 18, Mr Ward again refers to the fact that - he refers to intensive training program. He says at about line six:
PN4977
However, all casual staff have undergone a six week intensive training program before commencing employment, the same training program undertaken by permanent staff before they commence duty.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN4978
Now do your comments in relation to the intensive nature of that program apply here as does your earlier comments about the training you undertook?---Yes, they do. There has only been one difference in the meantime, that all staff now do a two week on the job training. Everything that we were taught in six weeks, they still managed to put into four and they have a two week on the job component where they get out into the centre and do on the job training with the staff there. However, once that finishes, okay, they basically put their name in and if they are called in for work, they can be sent to any area other than the control room and expected to perform those duties. Now we have raised the fact, because staff have come to me and complained to me that they felt they weren't ready to be put in certain positions and certain jobs. I have taken that up and I have been told by the operations manager verbally that staff do a course, they have been trained, they should know what they are doing. Now to me, I would disagree with that. I don't believe it is intensive and I have even spoken to Mr Butler regarding this issue and regarding the training as is.
PN4979
Are you a member of the workplace consultative committee?---Yes I am.
PN4980
Further down in that particular paragraph, Mr Ward states:
PN4981
The centre is careful to monitor the ratio of permanent and casual correctional staff in a particular unit to ensure that the balance is appropriate to accommodate the unit's requirements and needs.
PN4982
Does that accord with your experience, Mr Shorter?---No, it does not. I have worked in units where there is up to half the staff are casual and as a matter of fact, I believe that on the day that Peter Gayton did the MCD evaluation when myself and Mr Keating walked him around the centre, we went into Lima 7 and both the staff members on morning were casual staff members, so there wasn't a member there that had been there before - I think it was their third day on and they were just people that had finished the training course a few weeks before.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN4983
I see. All right. Now can I take you back to paragraph 11 of the supplementary statement of Mr Ward where he states - this is in relation to IMP files, Mr Shorter, and I am looking at "lengthy entries". This is at about line nine:
PN4984
Lengthy entries are not necessary. Most entries are only approximately one line in length.
PN4985
This is in respect of the medical management unit. What do you say in response to that, Mr Shorter?---I disagree with that. I have worked in the medical management unit twice now, for a period of 18 months both times. I have actually had a direction in memo form from the Operations Manager, Mr Senior, that all IMP files will be filled out every day and for all prisoners, they will be at least a paragraph in length and it can't be - he says here that it can be handed over to a night shift officer. That is incorrect. It must be the officer on during the day. They are the person that makes the comment because they are the person that interacts with the prisoner. In the management unit, they have a restricted regime where when they are locked down of a night, they are normally locked down two hours before the prisoners in the units and that is about half an hour after the night shift officer comes on. They don't have any interaction with them at all during that time, other than the muster, where they basically open the trap, look in the cell, so they can't make any comment on how the prisoner's behaviour has been and it is not something that is handed over. I disagree with that 100 per cent.
PN4986
Thank you. Now you made mention of a visit to Fulham by someone from Mercer, Rigg and Dell?---That is correct.
PN4987
Now I want to ask you about the events of 4 and 5 January this year.
PN4988
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are you going to be much longer, Mr Lawrence?
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN4989
MR LAWRENCE: Probably one five minutes, your Honour - a bit longer. Now did you attend a meeting with the representative from Mercer, Rigg and Dell?---Yes, I did.
PN4990
And who else attended that meeting?---It was myself and basically it was two correctional officers, two correctional supervisors and two correctional managers. The managers were Mr Keating and Ms Barber. The supervisors were Mr Turner and Mr Jones and the officers were Mr Davis and myself. We were asked - we went into a room and we believed it was a part of the original work value where there was to be a comparative, I believe, between Loddon and Fulham Correctional Centre, therefore I asked Mr Davis, who is a delegate at the centre and also a WCC member, to accompany me to that meeting as we had been part of the bargain previous.
PN4991
Yes?---We attended the meeting and there was folders on the desk, okay? Basically we were asked what we do at the centre and to give an overview of our job, which we did for about 20 minutes. I believe it was just a general overview, a general outline of our duties and that was basically it. We then went on to supervisors and we spent probably the majority of our time with the supervisor and the managers because he had difficulty in discerning what the difference was between a correctional supervisor in the unit and a correctional manager and I believe for quite a while there, we were actually defending what the managers were doing in the units to that Peter Gayton.
PN4992
So it was - you were saying Mr Gayton had difficulty discerning the difference between a supervisor and a manager?---Yes, he did, yes.
PN4993
I see?---As they explained their duties to him and the managers explained their duties to him, yes.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN4994
Yes. And did anything transpire after that meeting?---We did a tour of the centre which was basically a walk around. Myself and Mr Keating did that and then I believe the following day - which once again was just a quick tour - it probably went for an hour, if that, and then I believe the following day Mr Woodward who is also - or at that time was a delegate and a WCC representative, he came into work, Mr Gayton came in and I believe he had a look at visits and he was there for, I believe, in the centre for possibly up to three and had a look at the visits and then he left. I asked him to send some information to me, which he did, but other than that, it was just an overview of what they did as a job evaluation, nothing else.
PN4995
And at the meeting, there was yourself, another correctional officer, two supervisors and two managers with Mr Gayton. How long did that meeting go for approximately?---I believe it went for approximately an hour and a half to two hours. I am not 100 per cent sure on the time there but I know the majority of the time that we were there was discussion with managers and the supervisors.
PN4996
Finally, I want you to look at this document for me. Can you just explain to the Commission what this document is, Mr Shorter?---What this document is, is recently at a workplace consultative committee meeting we asked, well, Mr Prokop and Mr Senior, whether we could have a breakdown of what the FTE was at Fulham Correctional Centre. They would not explain to us how they come to their FTE, however they agreed to furnish us with information on staffing levels and where they worked. From that document that they furnished to Mr Woodward, it was put into an Excel program, the staff that were working in the units at the time were put into those units, as you can see by the right hand column, and it was to give us an idea of exactly who worked where, how many staff were in which units and what the make up was. I have recently gone through this again and that is my writing on there with regards to the staff and I believe this to be an accurate document as to the staffing make up as recently as a week ago.
PN4997
And what is the - if there is a Q appearing before a 9, what does that signify?---The Q signifies the person has quit or has left - - -
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN4998
The employ of Fulham?---Yes, left ACM. The S is for people that I believe have been retrenched or sacked that were on WorkCover; their time had finished and for whatever reason that was it, their employment was ended.
PN4999
And what does "not on roster" mean?---Not on roster is for people who were on WorkCover such as say, for instance, Ms Start, where she wasn't actually at the centre. You have one here where Ms Laurie was on WorkCover. She was actually on a return to work program whereas Ms Start didn't actually come into the centre and work. She did at some stages but yes, I can't comment on it because it was a WorkCover issue but yes, that "not on roster" it was what I imagine ACM has written. People on the dog squad are also not put on the roster, so I don't understand why or how.
PN5000
But to the best of your knowledge, this document represents the staffing establishment - the operational staffing establishment, including managers, at Fulham at the present time?---That is correct. It doesn't include recreation specialists or people that aren't in correctional employment. These are the people that have done a correctional course and are regarded as correctional officers, whether they be managers, supervisors or officers.
PN5001
And there is a break up of the figures at the end of this particular document- - -?---Yes, there is.
PN5002
In terms of numbers, permanent, casual and so forth, yes?---Yes. To my knowledge there is 89 full time staff. We have had a person come back, which is actually 90 full time staff at the moment. Mr Conway has come back from Baxter so that is the only change that I can see. There has been promotions and all that in the meantime but that has happened in the last week and I am not privy to the results of those interviews yet.
PN5003
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XN MR LAWRENCE
PN5004
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Shorter, you will be required after the luncheon adjournment for cross examination so if you return then. Anything else at this stage?
PN5005
PN5006
MR D'ABACO: Mr Shorter, you commenced employment at Fulham in 1997. Is that correct?---That is correct.
PN5007
And when you commenced employment in 1997, you commenced employment as a trainee?---That is correct.
PN5008
And that indicates to me, I understand, that before you joined Fulham you didn't have any experience in the corrections industry?---That is correct.
PN5009
And your first experience with working in the corrections industry is at Fulham?---That is correct.
PN5010
And, indeed, that has been the whole, sort of, extent of your experience of working in the corrections industry, isn't it, having worked at Fulham?---Yes.
PN5011
And, in terms of the last five or six years, you haven't worked within the public sector?---I beg your pardon?
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5012
You haven't worked at any of the public prisons in this State?---No, I have not.
PN5013
So you would agree with me, wouldn't you, that your experience is confined, exclusively, to the Victorian private prison sector, if I can classify such a sector?---That is correct.
PN5014
Now, in terms of your responsibilities, in addition to being a correctional officer, I understand you are also a delegate of the CPSU?---Yes, that is correct.
PN5015
And you are one of three CPSU delegates employed out at Fulham. Is that correct?---Yes, I am.
PN5016
Okay. Now, in terms of your responsibilities as a delegate, would I be correct in saying that you would have a greater degree of contact with CPSU officials and CPSU employees such as Mr Johnston the Industrial Officer, than would be the case for the normal CPSU members?---I would disagree with that because they have an open door policy - anyone can contact them at any time over any issue.
PN5017
Yes?---Okay. And I am just another, I suppose, part of their - the local membership there.
PN5018
Look, I am not in any way suggesting that the CPSU doesn't listen to all its members. What I am saying, however, is that because you are a delegate, one of three - - -?---Mm.
PN5019
- - - you have some duties and responsibilities, as a delegate of the CPSU, which are over and above any duties or responsibilities which normal CPSU member would have. Would that be correct?---I would say that I have a responsibility to staff if they seek to speak to me and ask me to pass something on, yes. I regard myself as a representative of the staff, yes. And a part of that committee is to bring up issues that staff report to me at that forum.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5020
So you would agree with me that in terms of your being responsible to staff, you act, as it were, as a middle man or a conduit of staff concerns through to the CPSU. Do you accept that?---I would say that I do that, not just to the CPSU but also to Fulham management.
PN5021
Yes, but I am only talking at the moment about your responsibilities as CPSU delegate. You would accept, would you not, that as a delegate one or your roles is to listen to what your fellow employees and members are saying. You would sometimes pass things on to CPSU officials?---Yes, I would agree with that.
PN5022
Yes. And you would also agree with me that that role as a middle man also goes the other direction. And there may be times when CPSU officials or CPSU representatives wish to pass messages down to the members and you act as a middle man or a conduit the other way down the line. Would you accept that?---Well I don't believe that I pass messages from actual CPSU because we do it through mass meetings - - -
PN5023
Yes?--- - - - that is how all of our information is passed on. So it is not as if I am personally rung and told go and tell this member that, it is - all our information is through meetings and it is in that form.
PN5024
But you would accept, wouldn't you, that in terms of your relationship with CPSU officials and the CPSU officers, that it is a closer working relationship than would be the case with a normal officer or supervisor who may be a member of the union but isn't a delegate. Would you accept that?---I am afraid I can't because I find that staff, not just, don't only ring myself they ring people directly. So I can't understand what you are getting at with that question.
PN5025
Well I am actually not trying to get at anything. All I am trying to ask you is, whether as a delegate you accept that you do have some specific duties and responsibilities as a delegate of the CPSU which the members who aren't delegates, don't have?---Well I suppose I have.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5026
That is all I was trying to ask you?---Yes, no that is fine, I was just - - -
PN5027
That is all I was trying to ask you. Now as part of those duties and responsibilities, as a delegate, that would also include the formulation of any claims which employees wish to put on the centre management. Would you accept that?---You mean by myself or am I passing on information?
PN5028
No. In terms of if employees get together and say we wish to pursue a claim - - -?---Mm.
PN5029
- - - would you accept that one of your duties and responsibilities, as a delegate, is to actually listen to your fellow employees concerns and perhaps then deal with the CPSU officials in formulating a claim to put to centre management?---Well, how I operate is, staff come to me and they say that - if they have an issue that they want to bring up as a part of the claim, then I note it down and then we have that brought up in a meeting, a meeting of members - okay - at which the CPS people are present at. And then it is as a group. Every issue that is either brought up, whether it be from management or whether it be from staff and whether it involved the union or not, it is in a arena of a meeting. So it is not something that I would go up and say, well Joe has told me this and directly, it is in the form of a meeting.
PN5030
Yes. And are there occasions where you may have meetings with CPSU officials or representatives without all of the members present?---I am trying to recall when - I have had meetings when I have been in discussions, when we have been up here in front of Mr Lacy and - - -
PN5031
Yes. Yes, that is what I am getting to, yes. There are those sorts of meetings, yes?---Yes, that is right.
PN5032
And really one of the advantages, if you can put it, that often of being a delegate, is that often leave is provided to delegates of unions so they can actually attend those meetings to discuss things such as formulating employee claims and so forth. Are you aware of that sort of leave?---Yes. There is a provision in the EBA but I don't believe I have had any of that leave, as yet.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5033
You haven't availed - have you sought it? Have you sought that sort of leave, to date?---Only for occupational health and safety training and I was knocked back because I wasn't a representative of that at that time. Because I was a union delegate I was told no, you are not an OHS person you can't go.
PN5034
Yes. But you accept that, under the EBA, if you sought leave to pursue your delegate duties there is an obligation upon the centre actually provide you with that leave. You accept that, don't you?---Yes, I do.
PN5035
And that leave can be used for purposes such as formulating claims and so forth, with the assistance of the CPSU officials?---No, I disagree with that. The leave that I have in our EBA is for us to be trained as delegates, that is all. It is not to meet and formulate any sort of policy or anything like that.
PN5036
Okay. I would like to take you, if I could please, Mr De Moel, to this claim, which is a subject - - -?---Mr Shorter.
PN5037
I am sorry, Mr Shorter. I would like to take you, if I can, Mr Shorter, to the matters which form the basis of the current application and that is this claim. Were you involved in the formulation of this claim which is presently before his Honour?---Yes, I was.
PN5038
As a CPSU delegate?---Yes, I was part of an elected member to a single bargaining unit.
PN5039
Yes?---Yes.
PN5040
And I take it that your fellow CPSU delegates, the other two gentlemen, were also part of that single bargaining unit?---No, they were not.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5041
They were not, so - - -?---No, no.
PN5042
- - - you are the sole delegate responsible - or the sole delegate who has been appointed onto that SBU?---I am just trying to remember the names. It was myself, Mr van Dyke, Mr King and Mr Battley, and of those, I was the only delegate.
PN5043
Now, in terms of the formulation of that claim, are you aware of what the actual percentage increases or what the percentage increases of this claim actually are in terms of what is being sought by the CPSU on behalf of the officers such as yourself and the correctional supervisors?---No. I believe that what - the only claim that we made was that we be regarded as prison officers not security guards - - -
PN5044
Yes?--- - - - as our award was started under. And that we, as prison officers, we be basically remunerated the same as the public system. I don't know what the difference between the two systems are.
PN5045
So you don't actually know what the actual percentage increases are in terms of the rates which are being sought by the CPSU, the union of which you are a delegate, and the actual rates that you are receiving at the moment?---No, I don't, no, not exactly. No.
PN5046
All right. Would it come as a surprise to you to learn and these figures have been agreed to by Mr Johnston in previous evidence, that in terms of the correctional officer 1 level, this claim would constitute a 38 per cent salary increase. Are you aware of that?---I am now.
PN5047
Yes. Are you surprised by that increase?---If that is the difference between us and the public prison officer, yes.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5048
So you are surprised that the amount of the increase being sought is 38 per cent?---I am surprised with the difference that we are paid, well 38 per cent less than a prison officer in the public system.
PN5049
And you believe that a salary increase of 38 per cent is a reasonable one?---If we are regarded as prison officers and we work in a prison.
PN5050
Well, if you can just broaden your focus, for a moment, outside the Victorian prison sector and whether or not that is the actual difference between the private and public. You would agree with me, wouldn't you, that a salary increase of 38 per cent is pretty extraordinary, isn't it?---I don't know. I don't have any experience of it. I came from a military background and - - -
PN5051
Well, you read the papers on a daily or weekly basis?---Not particularly. No.
PN5052
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Didn't often get 38 per cent in the military did you?---No. I would have stayed there if I had.
PN5053
MR D'ABACO: I think I might even join the military in that case, your Honour?---You can bet I would have stayed.
PN5054
You would be aware that every two or three years, National Wage cases are handed down by the Commission, which usually provide for salary increases roughly in the vicinity of, perhaps, 9 or 10 per cent over a three year period, ie 3 per cent per annum. And that is a National Wage case applying to the majority of award covered employees. Against that background, 38 per cent is fairly high, isn't it?---Well, against that background, I would agree with you. But, as I say, I have no experience with it so I can't answer.
PN5055
And do you know what the percentage increase, which is being sought on behalf of correctional supervisors, is?---No, I don't.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5056
Would it come as a surprise to you to know that it is in the region of 53.8 per cent?---Once again, if it is the same as - they are doing the job, if that is what parity means, then.
PN5057
Now, I want to take you to the basis upon which this claim is being brought, if I may, Mr Shorter. I think you have indicated, on a number of occasions, that you believe this claim is being brought as a result of parity being sought with the public sector. Is that correct?---Can you, can you just - sorry.
PN5058
Yes, certainly. In terms of the rationale for the claim which is being brought by the CPSU on behalf of yourself and your fellow correctional officers and supervisors, the reasons behind it. You have indicated already this afternoon, on a couple of occasions, that the reason is parity with the Victorian public sector. You accept that?---I would agree with that. Yes.
PN5059
Yes. Are there any other reasons of which you are aware, as to why this claim is being brought, reasons or rationale for it?---The rationale behind the staff seeking parity with the public system was, simply, we are regarded as prison officers, our duties and responsibilities, I believe, are similar and that is how the staff at the centre feel and that is the information that the staff of the centre present to me and to the union at a meeting.
PN5060
Okay. So you say that the reason this claim is being brought is because of a feeling that you and your fellow officers and supervisors have that you are doing the same work as being performed by prison officers in the public system. Is that correct?---Similar to them.
PN5061
Okay. Now you remember, at the beginning of this afternoon, I asked you some questions about your background and where you have worked in the past five years in the corrections industry and you agreed with me that your experience has confined to Fulham and it has been confined in the private sector?---Yes.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5062
You don't have any direct, first hand knowledge of what work is like in the public systems, do you?---No, I don't.
PN5063
You have never worked in a public system, have you?---No, I haven't.
PN5064
So what you perceive to be how things operate in the public system, is dependent upon what you have been told by other people. Would you accept that?---Other people that have worked in the public system. Yes.
PN5065
And also what you have been told by the CPSU officials and representatives?---I would disagree with that. My information has come from officers that have spent up to 17 years in the public system, some of them, some of them 15, some of them more, some of them less, and that is what they have said to me, as part of a meeting.
PN5066
When Fulham commenced operations in 1997 the initial intake of correctional officers and supervisors was something in the region of 130, 140 employees, wasn't it?---I couldn't answer that, I don't know.
PN5067
Okay. Would you think - would you agree with me if - would you say that you think that is probably about right?---It could be. Yes.
PN5068
Okay. And evidence will be given, by representatives of the company, that at that time something in the region of 80 or 90 of those officers - we are talking maybe two thirds to 70 per cent had no previous experience in the corrections industry, i.e. they came from other areas, from the army or from the military or wherever. Would you agree with that?---Well a lot of those, a lot of those people had experience in the security industry and well that is the agreement, I suppose, we are employed under so I imagine it was relevant.
PN5069
So are you seeking parity with the security industry, Mr Shorter?---No we are already - I think we are already - that was what we were based on initially, so - - -
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5070
Yes. Okay. So you are not seeking parity with the security industry?---No.
PN5071
But you would accept, would you not, then that the vast majority or the majority of people who commenced employment at Fulham came from outside the public prison system?---If that is the case I don't have - I am not privy to those figures but if that is the case.
PN5072
Well I am just asking you - I mean, you were one of the trainees, there were about 70 or 80 trainees, weren't there?---They weren't all in one group. I had about 25, I believe, in my group.
PN5073
Yes?---And of that 25, I think, six were ex Pentridge or core officers and - - -
PN5074
About 25?--- - - - I never really - - -
PN5075
So about 25, 30 per cent. Roughly would equate to the figure - - -?---I can't give you a figure, honestly. But I would say, I would agree that the majority in my class were not ex prison officers.
PN5076
So we have established then that, in terms of the claim for parity, you rely upon what you have been told by other people who have worked in the public system?---I would agree with that. Yes.
PN5077
Yes. And that is in relation to people who worked in the public system five, six maybe even more years ago because for the last five to six years they have been employed out at Fulham in the private system. Would you accept that?---No, I would disagree with that. We have people that come to the centre and are employed that may have only been in the last couple of years.
PN5078
You wouldn't profess yourself to be an expert on the Victorian public prison system, would you?---No, I would not.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5079
So your claim for parity or what you believe ought to be parity is exclusively based upon what other people have told you happens in the public system?---I have had a look at the selection criteria and the position description for public prisoners and I find that they are very similar.
PN5080
Yes. Right - - -?---In duties and responsibilities of the staff. I have looked it up to and even considered applying for a job with the public sector but unfortunately they decided to close the Won Wron prison so that was one avenue shut to me. But I have had a look and I felt that if I were to apply for the job I was well equipped to apply. The job was essentially the same as what I do at Fulham.
PN5081
But you haven't applied for the job, even though, if there were jobs available you would be getting something in the realms of a 38 or 39 per cent salary increase, have you?---Well I didn't look at the salary increase, I looked at the job itself and the duties that was required.
PN5082
Given what I am not telling you, do you think you might be making application if one comes up?---Well no because I would have to move to the city and unfortunately I hate the city.
PN5083
Even if you get an extra 40 per cent in your pay packet?---Even if I got an extra 500 per cent I wouldn't move up to the city.
PN5084
I want to take you, if I can please, Mr De Moel, to the - - -?---Mr Shorter - - -
PN5085
Mr Shorter, I am sorry. It is a long couple of days. I want to take you, if I can please, Mr Shorter, to the events of 8 and 9 March of last year - - -?---Mm.
PN5086
- - - when there were some conciliation hearings presided over by his Honour. Do you remember those couple of days? You have actually given a witness statement in relation to it, I believe?---On the - I do recall - - -
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5087
I don't want to ask - asking you to go back to it - do you recall those events of those days?---I will just clarify that. I actually don't recall the 8th because I wasn't present on the 8th. I was only present on the 9th.
PN5088
I am sorry, 9 March?---Yes. I do recall 9 March. Yes.
PN5089
Okay. Now, what I want to ask you is this. You have given some evidence that at that meeting on the 9th, a process was agreed in relation to assessing the work being undertaken at the Fulham Correctional Centre. Do you remember that evidence? Or do you remember that aspect of your statement?---Can I just ask you to repeat that again please, I am - - -
PN5090
Okay. What I was asking you is, you recall that at the discussions which took place on 9 March of last year, there was some form of agreement in relation to a work value exercise being undertaken at Fulham Correctional Centre?---What I recall of that meeting with his Honour, is that a work value was proposed.
PN5091
Yes?---We basically agreed to take it back to our members, as I have said, we - it is their decision whether to proceed with it or not. And we took that back to the members and they voted unanimously to proceed with a work value case. Yes.
PN5092
Can I ask you to have a look at this document, please, Mr Shorter. Your Honour, this is simply schedule 1 to the 2001 certified agreement. It doesn't need to be tendered. I am just showing it to the witness rather than showing the entire document. Now, you have said in your witness statement, Mr Shorter, that the agreement which was reached here on 9 March last year was embodied in a schedule to the agreement. And that evidence is in paragraph 8 of your witness statement. Do you see that, a short description of the process for the assessment, it was attached to the rear of schedule 1?---Yes.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5093
Okay. Can you point to me, directly please, to any paragraph in that agreement where the word comparative is used?---No, I cannot.
PN5094
And you can't because the word comparative, in fact, doesn't appear in that document, does it?---That is correct.
PN5095
Okay. Now, Mr Shorter, do you recall that in addition to your first statement which has been marked as CPSU4 - I think you have a copy of that in front of you - where you dealt with the events of 9 March. Prior to that you had also prepared or had prepared on your behalf, another witness statement which hasn't found its way into evidence in this proceeding. Do you recall that?---No, I don't.
PN5096
Can I ask you to have a look at this document, please. Perhaps if you can hand that document back please, Mr Shorter. I won't take that particular line of cross-examination any further, your Honour. Now, if I can take you to, please, Mr Shorter, to CPSU4 of the agreement which - I am sorry, the witness statement - which was filed in respect of the events on the 9th. You say in paragraph 13 of that statement - I am sorry, I withdraw that. You say in paragraph 11, that it is your understanding and recollection of the meeting that the work value assessment also included analysis for the work at Fulham in comparison to that undertaken by other correctional staff. Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN5097
Okay. Now, you don't say anywhere in your statement, do you, that - if I could just back up one step. In terms of the meeting on the 9th, there were two representatives of Fulham Correctional Centre in attendance, weren't there?---That is correct. Yes.
PN5098
One was Mr Myers, the General Manager who is here today?---Yes, that is correct. Yes.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5099
And the other one was a gentleman called Mr Les French?---Correct.
PN5100
Now during the course of that meeting, Mr Myers didn't raise the idea of there being a comparative work assessment, did he?---I couldn't recall, I am sorry.
PN5101
Well you certainly haven't made any reference in your witness statement to Mr Myers making any such recollection or any such reference, can you?---I can't recall. I can't recall who said what at the meeting, I am afraid.
PN5102
All right. And if Mr Myers was to give evidence, which he will in due course, that he never used the word comparative and indeed the word comparative was never raised, you are not in a position to disagree with that, are you?---Well, I can't recall who actually said what, so, no, I suppose I can't.
PN5103
Well if you can't agree who said what, you would have to agree with me, would you not, that you can't even say what you have said there in the particular paragraph that I have taken you to, that it was agreed that there would be a comparative work assessment, you can't - if you can't recall who said what?---I believe it was in the discussion but I could not say 100 per cent who actually said that comparative or that word comparative was said. I can't say, yes - - -
PN5104
Well if that was agreed you would have expected it to have found its way into schedule 1 to the agreement, wouldn't you?---I imagine it would have.
PN5105
And you would agree with me, that the fact that it wasn't agreed or it wasn't referred to in schedule 1, more probably than not, means that the issue was never even discussed in terms of the methodology of the work value assessment?---I am afraid I would have to disagree because I can clearly recall that there was a comparison to be made and it was not just to public prisons but privates as well - private prisons as well. But I just can't remember who actually made the statement.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5106
Okay. So you can't recall who said it?---No.
PN5107
And you can't recall what was said?---I can recall that there - I believe that - my recollection is that there was the - that a comparison was to be - not just public prisons but private prisons as well.
PN5108
It is true, is it not, that once the actual committee, which was actually comprised to undertake this work value review, got on its feet - this is the one presided over by Mr Pimm - that the issue of methodology was discussed. That is correct? In terms of whether it would be comparative or non-comparative?---I believe it was. Yes.
PN5109
And after a period of time it became quite clear that Fulham disagreed with any form of comparative analysis, didn't it?---I would disagree with that. I believe that we actually sat down at one stage and we were discussing which prisoners we were going to do a comparison with. And I believe certain prisoners were discussed and decided against because they weren't similar to Fulham Correctional Centre. I believe Loddon prison was the prison that was agreed on as being closes to Fulham Correctional Centre in operations.
PN5110
Because what I am suggesting to you is - - -
PN5111
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry - just before you go on. When you say "we" sat down and discussed that, who do you mean by "we"?---The single bargaining unit, your Honour, as well as the members of the CPSU, Mr Prokop, Ms Diplock, Mr Myers and I can't recall the other person I am afraid but - - -
PN5112
All right, so it wasn't just?--- - - - both parties.
PN5113
You didn't mean just the union people?---No, no. It was both parties in that bargaining - - -
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5114
Sorry, sorry, Mr D'Abaco.
PN5115
MR D'ABACO: No, no, that is fine. Thank you, your Honour. What I am suggesting to you, Mr Shorter, is that the concept of a comparative exercise certainly was raised once the SBU, the other individuals started their deliberations. You agree with that?---It was raised. It was raised in that forum, yes.
PN5116
Well what I am putting to you is that it wasn't raised on the 9th when the actual agreement was threshed out here under the auspices of his Honour?---Well I am afraid I would have to disagree with that. I believe it was.
PN5117
Even though you can't recall who said what?---No, I can't. I am afraid that at that meeting I was a new delegate, myself, and yes, I just - I had no experience in these matters and I am afraid I didn't make notes. It is to my, I suppose - - -
PN5118
But you have been trained as a correctional officer in observing?---I have.
PN5119
And part of observational skills also include listening?---They do.
PN5120
And, from what I understand, you have a military background?---I do.
PN5121
And most military people have fairly acute senses of hearing and vision?---Depending on their occupation, they I am sure - - -
PN5122
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don't know that I can go that far, Mr D'Abaco.
PN5123
MR D'ABACO: Perhaps I am realising my non-military background, your Honour?---Some people were in louder professions than others and it affected their hearing greatly.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5124
Yes, if you were in artillery I think it is a bit hard, isn't it. Okay. What I am putting to you is that if, in fact, the word comparative was used, you have got sufficient experience and wherewithal to probably have remembered who said it and what was said, wouldn't you?---No. I could - I have had thousands of conversations with many different people over the years and I am afraid that is something I just can't recall.
PN5125
Okay?---It doesn't - you know, to me, you could ask me about a conversation I had last week but then I can remember who it was with but I couldn't give you the details of it. You see, I think I would be a very employable person if I could. Perhaps a solicitor.
PN5126
If I can take you to paragraph 15 of your statement, CPSU4, please, Mr Shorter?---I beg your pardon?
PN5127
Paragraph 15 of your statement, CPSU4, the briefer one?---Yes.
PN5128
You will see there that you give some evidence in relation to a meeting of the committee which was held on 22 November. See that?---Yes, I do.
PN5129
Now, it is true, isn't it, that at that meeting the CPU was - the CPSU, I am sorry, was pressing for a comparison of the work undertaken at Fulham vis a vis other public prisons, wasn't it?---No, I don't believe that to be true.
PN5130
Okay. The ACM - sorry - ACM or Fulham certainly disagreed, at that meeting, with any type of comparative exercise being undertaken, didn't it?---I don't recall them disagreeing with that. No.
PN5131
Well in the preceding paragraph where you talk about a prior meeting on 11 November you say that?---Can you repeat that again. I am lost with what you were - - -
[2.57pm]
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5132
Fulham had made quite clear to the CPSU in early November that it disagreed with any comparative exercise being undertaken, had it not?---No.
PN5133
Well, that is what you say in paragraph 14, isn't it?
PN5134
Read 13 and 14 carefully, Mr Shorter?---13 and 14, as in - on 11 November - - -
PN5135
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, which - is this CPSU4 or CPSU - - -
PN5136
MR D'ABACO: CPSU4, your Honour, yes?---
PN5137
The CPSU submitted their position descriptions, pay scales and selection criteria and state the case the work performed by both private and public sector prison officers was almost identical and the pay rate should reflect this.
PN5138
Okay.
PN5139
114?---Yes:
PN5140
ACM disagreed with this argument claiming the way the prisoners were managed was different and the pay structures were also different. ACM - CPSU asked ACM to provide a breakdown of how the all-in rate at Fulham was structured.
PN5141
And what I am putting to you, Mr Shorter, is that the first line of paragraph 14 indicates quite clearly - this is your statement, remember, that Fulham was rejecting any comparison with the public sector, was it not?---Mr Myers in - that thing, yes, on behalf of ACM.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5142
And he was there on behalf of CM?---Yes, that is right.
PN5143
Okay. Now, you say in paragraph 17 of your statement that there were some discussions being held in relation to which prison may be closer to Fulham in terms of general operations to it - act as a comparative yardstick as it were. And the name Loddon - or her Majesty's Prison Loddon appears?---Yes.
PN5144
Now, Loddon was suggested as a comparative by the CPSU, was it not?---I believe there was discussion from both parties and that was the agreement that the prison was closest one to.
PN5145
But you can't recall then who actually first raised the possibility of Loddon being used. Is that the evidence you are providing?---We have a list of all the prisons in Victoria.
PN5146
We, being, CPUS?---Not just the CPSU. It was actually on the table for both parties.
PN5147
Who prepared the list?---I can't recall who prepared that list.
PN5148
Okay?---And then, basically, each centre was discussed and Loddon was regarded as the one closest to Fulham in operations.
PN5149
Okay. Were any other prisons ever raised as being a yardstick by which the operations at Fulham could be compared?---What do you mean? At that actual meeting?
PN5150
Either at that time or even earlier?---I can't recall.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5151
Did the CPSU, either back in March of last year when you were having the discussions here, or subsequently, make any suggestion that, perhaps, the Port Phillip Prison be used as a comparative given that it is the only other prison in the private sector here in believe?---I believe the Port Phillip was discussed but I couldn't tell you exactly when that was.
PN5152
What was discussed in relation to Port Phillip?---Such as?
PN5153
I am asking - you say there were discussions in relation to Port Phillip. What was the - what were those discussions? Well, firstly, who were the discussions between? Were they between yourselves, including the CPSU and members or representatives at Fulham or just amongst yourself and fellow CPSUs?---It was amongst the party that was at the Work Value Committee - correction, with Bill Pimm, not Bill Pimm, with the Single Bargaining Unit and ACM representatives.
PN5154
So before 9 March, was it?---I recall that Port Phillip was brought up when all the other prisons were brought up.
PN5155
So that was before Mr Pimm and his deliberations?---I believe so.
PN5156
And can you recall what the nature of those discussions were in relation to Port Phillip?---Basically, the discussion at the time - and where Loddon and all that was brought up, was in the prisons operations. The security rating of the prisoners and all that sort of thing. And, basically, that was the discussion. It was back and forth from both parties that Loddon was a medium security prison. It - I believe it had an open plan type of design similar to Fulham whereas Port Phillip was a maximum remand prison. So we were looking at a prison that was very close to Fulham in operations and that is where the discussion, I believe, was with the private prison. The only similarity being that they were Group 4 and we were ACM. That is all, and I believe, that is why it wasn't agreed on. That is why Loddon.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5157
And did the CPSU representatives in their discussions with you and your fellow members of the SBU ever talk to you about what was actually happening out at Port Phillip at this time and what process was being undertaken there?---By process, what do you mean?
PN5158
Well, whether there was any processes or what their - they were doing anything out at Port Phillip. Was that ever discussed with yourself and your fellow delegates or fellow members of the SBU unit?---I don't understand by what doing - what they were doing?
PN5159
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Do you mean in relation to pay?
PN5160
MR D'ABACO: Yes, your Honour.
PN5161
In relation to whatever other initiatives which were being pursued by the CPSU at Port Phillip. That was never discussed?---I don't recall that being discussed, no.
PN5162
Okay. In terms of any comparison with Loddon, my instructions are that ACM never agreed to a comparison being undertaken, but if any comparison did have to be undertaken Loddon would be the most appropriate example. Would you agree with that?---I would disagree that - there was constant disagreement with the comparison and the agreement on Loddon - as the prisoners being close, I would agree with, but there was always the argument between the bargaining unit and ACM as regards to the comparison - the comparative analysis.
PN5163
Ultimately, ACM was not prepared to agree with the comparison with Loddon or any other prison, was it?---Well, they certainly did not conduct that comparison when they got Mercer, Cullen, Egan and Dell, because right up to that stage I believed that when Mercer, Cullen, Egan and Dell came into Fulham that that was the first step. And that the next step would be we would go to Loddon and complete the comparative analysis. Until that stage - and I personally believe there was going to be the comparison between Loddon and Fulham.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5164
Yes, but what I asked you is this. Is that, ultimately, there was no comparison undertaken with either Loddon or any other prison was there?---No, there was not, no.
PN5165
And in fact that is why we are here today and have been here for a number of days because of that breakdown. Is that correct?---I would say so, yes.
PN5166
Okay. Now, in your supplementary statement, Mr Shorter, CPSU10 - do you have a copy of that in front of you?---Yes, I do.
PN5167
Now, I am going to ask you to go to paragraph 4. You indicate that when you commenced working at the prison you moved on to the L7 unit, around 1998. Is that correct?---No, not when I first - - -
PN5168
After moving from the control room, you moved on to the L7 unit in 1998?---I moved to the induction unit which was LIMA4 and I spent a period of time there. There was a short period of time there where I was on a relief roster which they had run at the time and basically your job - because we didn't have many casual staff. I don't think we had any casual staff. Our job was to relieve in units that - staff had gone on leave or whatever. So became a pool of officers. Okay, and I worked in - - -
PN5169
I am not asking you account your whole history - - -?---While I am just putting up to where - - -
PN5170
No, all I am asking is that in 1998 you moved on to the LIMA7 unit, did you not?---In 1998 after being - yes.
PN5171
That was all I was asking?---That is fine, no worries.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5172
Yes. And - - -?---I thought you wanted a bit of background, that is all.
PN5173
No, no, no, my learned friend will ask those questions if we need any more background?---Okay.
PN5174
And at that time Mr De Moel was also working on the L7 unit?---Yes, I believe he was, yes.
PN5175
And I think you gave some evidence earlier this morning in response to some questions from my learned friend. With the commencement of the introduction of double-ups - that occurred in a phased stage, did it not?---Yes, it did.
PN5176
And in fact the introduction of additional prisoners took place in three stages, did it not?---I believe it did, yes.
PN5177
Thank you. And once numbers on the L7 unit got above 110 an additional correctional officer was appointed to both the day and afternoon shifts. That is correct?---Once it went to 112.
PN5178
Yes, then you - - -?---One additional staff member was added.
PN5179
Per shift which equates - - -?---Per shift.
PN5180
- - - to two additional staff members per day?---Yes, per shift, yes.
PN5181
I wonder if the witness could be shown exhibit JRM2 please, your Honour. Do you have a copy of that in front of you, Mr Shorter?---I do, yes.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5182
Now, have you seen this document before?---No, I have not.
PN5183
All right, perhaps if I can just explain it to you and tell me whether you disagree with this. What it represents on the extreme left hand side is descriptions of various sectors or various areas of Fulham's operations - executive admin operations, health services and so forth. You understand what those broad groupings are, don't you?---The areas, yes.
PN5184
Yes?---Yes.
PN5185
And you would agree with me, wouldn't you, that the operations area includes, basically, the custodial staff, ie, officers, supervisors - officers and supervisors, does it not?---Yes, it does, yes.
PN5186
Now you will see - if we then move across the page, that it indicates that before the introduction of double-ups and 52 bed, that is the ERICA unit, there were 139.1 full time equivalent employees. Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN5187
The next column then indicates that with the additional prisoners and the ERICA unit there had been appointed an additional 29.8 full time equivalent staff?---Yes, I see that.
PN5188
And that that corresponds to - if you go to the extreme right hand side - the 21.4 per cent increase in correctional staff. Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN5189
Now, you would agree with me, would you not, that that is a fairly substantial increase in correctional staff?---If - these figures are - can I get some clarification? These figures are overall or are they staff that work each day?
PN5190
Well - - -?---An overall increase of staff or - - -
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5191
Well, it is an overall increase in staff. It doesn't actually track how many individuals are working on each particular day because, as you would be well aware, sometimes people are ill, sometimes people go on leave. And that would happen all the time, would it not?---Well, that happens all the time.
PN5192
Yes?---But they are supposed to be replaced, yes.
PN5193
Right, they are, and this is talking about additional staff actually being appointed, being 21.4 per cent. Do you see that?---Yes, I do.
PN5194
All right, now, these are figures which are attached as a statement - sorry, attached to Mr Myers' witness statement. He will subsequently give evidence that they are true and correct. You don't have any reason to disbelieve that, do you?---Well, I have no reason to disagree, no.
PN5195
Okay. And what I am putting to you is that a 21.4 per cent increase in staff is a fairly substantial increase, is it not?---Well, in a full time equivalent I imagine it would be.
PN5196
All right, do you know what the percentage increase of prisoners has been as a result of the introduction of double-ups and the ERICA unit?---No, I couldn't say. I have asked on numerous occasions to be explained FTEs and all that and I am afraid I haven't been told so I couldn't tell you, no.
PN5197
All right, well, there are witness statements which will soon become - subsequently become evidence, which say that the total increase in prison numbers has been 22.5 per cent. Okay, now, from your experience, would you say that that figure is probably fairly accurate?---I deal with amounts of heads in doors. That is how I understand the figures.
PN5198
Well, we go back to the LIMA unit, for example, where you have worked for some time. When it first opened what was its capacity?---Its capacity was 102 prisoners.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5199
What is the capacity now?---132 prisoners.
PN5200
So that is what, about a - what percentage increase?---I don't know. I am not a mathematician, I am afraid, I - - -
PN5201
About 30 per cent?---Could be, yes.
PN5202
And LIMA unit usually runs at an average of 126 prisoners per day, does it not?---Well, I would disagree with that, that is averaging out.
PN5203
Well, Mr De Moel agreed with it?---That is averaging out. All units are different. Some go slightly less, some go more, averaged.
PN5204
I am only asking - I am asking about LIMA 7. Mr De Moel agreed with me when I said the average is around 126. Would you disagree with Mr De Moel?---I would say, in my experience, there was - it fluctuated. So, as I said, I am not a mathematician. If you average it, fine, I can say what I felt, but, yes.
PN5205
So if you look at LIMA7 we say the average is 126 and originally it was 102. It is about a 5th, is it not? About a 5th of an increase, around 20 per cent. Would you accept that?---I would accept that.
PN5206
I mean, I am a rough mathematician as well but I am saying it is roughly 20 per cent?---Yes.
PN5207
A 21.4 per cent increase in correctional staff is almost identical to the increase in prisoner numbers, is it not?---It appears that way.
PN5208
It appears that way, does it?---Well, you can increase staff but that doesn't necessarily mean that those staff are placed in units. From what I - as I said, one - - -
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5209
Well, I am only talking about correctional staff?--- - - - extra staff member for a double-up.
PN5210
I am only talking about correctional staff?---That is what I am talking about too.
PN5211
Yes?---One extra staff member when the double-ups began and we had 10 prisoners come in. Then there is a further 20 prisoners come in with no additional staff. So, as I say, you can talk percentages but - - -
PN5212
You didn't have an additional 20 people coming in, did you, Mr Shorter?---What do you mean? There is 132 in there now. There is - that is the capacity now.
PN5213
No, that is the capacity, Mr Shorter. What I am talking about is the average prisoners there?---Well - - -
PN5214
Mr De Moel gave evidence, or agreed with me, when I said the average L7 is around 126?---If that is averaged out over a year or - I imagine it would be. You have fluctuations.
PN5215
What I am putting to you is that there is an average increase of prisoners in the region of 22.5 per cent and there is an average increase of correctional staff of 2.4 per cent. They almost equalise each other, don't they?---Yes.
PN5216
Against that background when you claim in paragraph 4 of your statement, at the bottom of page 2:
PN5217
The impact of this increase in the number of prisoners without a proportionate increase in correctional staff means as being certain effects and responsibilities, safety and general workload.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5218
That is not correct, is it, because the underlying assumption of there not being a proportionate increase doesn't hold water, does it?---As I said when you go centre-wide and average everything out your figures appear correct. As I said we had one extra staff member and I believe that we generally ran at 132 full and we never got any other increase in staff after that initial one officer. That is how I see it.
PN5219
Do you have any figures to back up your belief?---Well, we have correctional staff officer that come into L7.
PN5220
No, no, your belief that the staff generally ran - sorry, that L7 generally ran at a maximum of 132 all the time. Do you have anything to back that up?---Only my experience in that unit. I can't get - I can't get documents from ACM because they are obviously their documents.
PN5221
You have got access to the PIMS system?---I have access to the PIMs system on a limited basis, however, as far as I am concerned, that is a manager's duty to look after the PIMS system. When I initially stated there I had no access to it and basically I put it back to the manager. If I want an indent or something from PIMS it is their job.
PN5222
Yes. And in terms of that being the manager's job or the supervisor's job to access the PIMS, that is the case throughout the centre's operations, is it not?---When I initially started there it was the manager only. Since the area manager has come in it went to supervisors. Okay - - -
PN5223
The area managers have been long gone, aren't they?---That is right.
PN5224
They left over 18 months ago?---And since then it has never changed. It never went back when those area managers - when that ended - that it never went back. As a matter of fact when we had area manager in L7 and I was there, our area manager was also acting as the operations manager in the centre for some time.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5225
But I think you said few moments ago that it was, ultimately - it is the manager's responsibility to have access to the PIMS and to get information off that system. Do you recall that evidence?---I believe that, yes.
PN5226
And what I am putting to you is that that particular statement applies not only to L7 but it applies across the centre's responsibility - across the centre, in total, does it not?---I believe that.
PN5227
Okay. And what that means, does it not, that in terms of access to PIMS - the unit managers have full access to PIMS?---Yes, yes.
PN5228
Yes. The correctional supervisors also have access but of a lesser degree to what the unit managers have?---I can't answer that. In my time in L7 I saw that the unit supervisors were actually given access and passwords from their unit managers. And they used that to access the system.
PN5229
And the correctional officers then have less access to the system than do the supervisors. Would you agree with that?---Once again, when I started, we had no access. I worked in the induction period for a short time and we were given limited access for a period of three or four months. That is now finished. I no longer have access to the PIMS system.
PN5230
And your situation is a situation which is shared by the majority of the correctional officers in terms of your access to that particular system. That is correct, is it not?---No, I disagree with that. I personally do not access the PIMS system because of my position. I believe, that when the area managers devolve their duties to the supervisors - I believe that the supervisors were doing too much of the manager's work and they were not doing what supervisors were doing previously in the unit. I refuse to - that is when I refused to access this system.
PN5231
Are you aware whether there are other employees out there who also have been refusing to access the system?---No, I can't speak for other employees with that.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5232
I am not asking you to speak for them, I am asking you whether you are aware of other employees also refusing to access the PIMS system?---No, I am not aware.
PN5233
Okay. Now, attached to your statement is a letter you received from Mr Butler, the training manager, a couple of years ago in relation to you obtaining your Certificate 3 Correctional Practice. Can you recall you answered some questions in response to my learned friend before lunch today. Do you remember that?---Yes, I do.
PN5234
Now, in terms of this particular certificate it is true to say, is it not, that while you - in the time leading up to you obtaining the certificate you didn't have to attend any specific classes or training to obtain the certificate?---No, as I said, it was a vocational certificate.
PN5235
So, in terms of formal training or formal programs, that training and those programs, were provided during the six week intensive training program, were they not? In terms of theoretical component?---No, they were not, we have ongoing training at the centre.
PN5236
Yes?---And that was to do with IMP files and basically other aspects of the centre.
PN5237
But, surely, the theory that you learned during that intensive training session underpinned the theoretical component?---I didn't agree it was intensive.
PN5238
Well, we will come back to that. In terms then of the training program, the six week training program, they provided you with theory, correct?---Yes.
PN5239
And whatever of these units, which are all outlines in attachment 1, refer to any theoretical issues, the actual knowledge was that which you acquired during the training program, correct?---No, I believe that a lot of this - it was taught to us in a basic manner. And a lot of this was either self-taught or as we did our job each day.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5240
Isn't that why, in the second paragraph, there is reference to, on the basis of assessments conducted during your pre-service training, that refers to the six week training, does it not?---It does.
PN5241
Now, in terms of that training which you received in that six weeks that was provided over a five day working week?---Yes, it was.
PN5242
You were trained eight hours a day?---They were very short lessons.
PN5243
You got lunch breaks and you got morning tea breaks?---Oh, 10 minute - 20 minute breaks every hour.
PN5244
Yes, but, you were basically training all day?---We were there all day, yes.
PN5245
Yes?---I couldn't say we were training all day.
PN5246
Well, what were you doing if you were not being trained?---Well, a lot of the times we had breaks or we were waiting for things to happen, or lessons to start or - there was discussion.
PN5247
Yes?---Now, I am afraid I disagree that it was intensive because I felt, myself, everything was brushed over. This is an IMP file. This is how we go with it. We had one session of a person pretending to be an officer. One pretending to be a prisoner and you were supposed to do a page 18 which is a review of a prisoner. That was it and it was basically - we were assessed on that. I never got the results of the assessment so I don't know whether I passed or failed.
PN5248
All right, so you are suggesting, that basically ACM was stringing out a six week course when it could have been done in a much briefer period. Is that what you are saying?---I believe so.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5249
Okay?---I believe now they have a - the course hasn't changed much and they have two weeks where the staff do on-the-job training - - -
PN5250
Yes?--- - - - which we didn't have, so - - -
PN5251
So, perhaps, it is a little bit more intensive than it was during your time?---Well, it may be, but staff still come up to me and say they don't feel prepared adequately.
PN5252
Do you think that anyone can ever be adequately prepared for a job if you are never there and actually undertaken some practical experience?---No, I believe that there should be more practical experience and I agreed with the two weeks on-the-job.
PN5253
So you think it was a good thing?---I think it was a good thing that they did the two weeks on-the-job but unfortunately it is still - it is not that beneficial.
PN5254
All right, now in terms of this particular certificate, you would agree with me, would you not, that the vasty majority of officers and supervisors see it as an opportunity which they can avail themselves of to obtain the certificate?---No, I am afraid I would have to disagree.
PN5255
You disagree with that?---Yes, I would.
PN5256
They don't see it as an opportunity, if they can obtain some sort of educational qualification - not an opportunity?---It is an opportunity, yes, but not in the manner that it was introduced. The manner it was introduced was under a classification structure and that is why staff were encouraged and felt that they had to do it.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5257
Well, if you decided to overcome your hatred of moving to the city, and you did so and you applied for a job out at Barwon or Port Phillip, would you refer to the fact that you have got this certificate?---No, I don't even have the certificate on my resume.
PN5258
You wouldn't refer to it?---No.
PN5259
You wouldn't tell a prospective employer that you have undergone a program and you have got some professional qualification in recognition of that?---No.
PN5260
You don't think it would assist you in obtaining another job elsewhere?---No, I don't believe it would, no.
PN5261
I put to you that that is a nonsense, Mr Shorter?---I put it to you that it is not.
PN5262
Okay?---Because this certificate is vocational.
PN5263
It doesn't mean anything?---I don't believe it does, no.
PN5264
Okay. Do you think that ACM is in the business of appointing a training manager to oversee the certificates for no purpose at all, do you?---No, I believe that the intention is there. I believe that it is a good idea. I believe that if it was implemented correctly and done well, then, yes, I would agree that it would be worthwhile. But, to me, I don't believe how it is - how you justify that you do your work is in this. Conduct searches - I was never - when I did my certificate, no-one ever - no workplace trainer - assessor ever came to me - which we were told was supposed to happen and watch me conduct a search. No workplace trainer and assessor actually watched me pat a prisoner down. It was just taken as given that you did it and you were competent.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5265
Do you think the correctional supervisors might have been supervising while you were performing these duties?---No, the correctional supervisors tend to be in the office with the manager doing their work in there. This is, as I said, a vocational certificate. You provided evidence that you had done a cell search, that you had written a report and they gave you a certificate based on that.
PN5266
My instructions are that there are approximately 90 staff out at the centre who have got this qualification?---Mm.
PN5267
Are you saying that all 90 of them also agree that it has been a huge waste of time?---I would say that a good proportion would agree with me, yes. I am not saying it is a waste of time. I am just saying the way it was implemented is not correct. And I have actually spoken to Mr Butler about that.
PN5268
Have you?---Mm.
PN5269
You are not aware of other correctional officers, when they have sought employment elsewhere, actually referring to the fact that they have got this certificate?---I couldn't answer that. I don't know.
PN5270
And you would disagree with me, would you, that it assists employees, or officers, in their promotional opportunities?---I would say it would assist them because the company values the certificate.
PN5271
Yes?---I don't personally value the certificate.
PN5272
Well, you may not personally value it, and that is a matter for yourself, but you accept, do you not, that if an officer has a certificate it enhances his or her opportunities to be promoted to a correctional supervisor; correct?---It could.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5273
Well, are you aware of anyone who has been promoted from a correctional officer to a correctional supervisor level who doesn't have the certificate?---I am not aware of who has and who doesn't have the certificates, so I couldn't answer that, I am afraid.
PN5274
What I am saying to you is do you think it is unreasonable for an employer to look favourably upon employees who have undertaken this sort of certificate?---No, I can't agree. There is another level of certificate for supervisors 4 which I believe was implemented correctly and is of value. And with the certificate 3 they have a policy that they - how far they are into the certificate 3 and how much they have completed even when they employ someone. Unfortunately we have actually had workplace consultative committee meetings where we have brought this up and I have asked Mr Butler was he consulted with regards to the certificate and he said, no, when the actual employments were made. So I don't even believe that ACM themselves - the managers on their employing panels, even referred to how far a certificate 3 - a person had done prior to employing them. I have even had staff complain to me. They said I have finished my certificate 3 and I didn't get the job. And yet other people are still working on their's and did. So if they are going to use that as a base to employ someone then I would have to say, no, I don't think that that is valid.
[3.27pm]
PN5275
You are employed as a correctional officer of the centre, aren't you?---Yes, I am.
PN5276
And you have been one for the past five years?---Yes, I have.
PN5277
Okay. Have you ever applied for a promotion to role of correctional supervisor?---No, I have not.
PN5278
You haven't, have you?---No.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5279
Why is that?---Because I don't believe that the way that it is done is correct, and I have had many discussions once again with management over promotional issues.
PN5280
You are aware that there are a number of people who started off as trainees like yourself who have actually moved into the management ranks?---I am aware of a few.
PN5281
Well, Ms Barber, who will give evidence, is one of them?---Mm.
PN5282
She is not unit manager?---Yes.
PN5283
She started off the same level as you did?---Yes.
PN5284
So there is certainly promotional opportunities within this company, aren't there?---Yes, there is.
PN5285
So the fact that you haven't availed yourself of them can't mean that other people haven't and have succeeded, does it?---No.
PN5286
And obviously accompanying those promotions are substantial salary increases?---Well, I don't know what a manager is earning so I couldn't answer that.
PN5287
Well you know that if you are promoted from the role of officer to supervisor, there is certainly a substantial salary increase, isn't there?---To be quite honest with you, I don't know what they - - -
PN5288
You don't know what the difference is between a correctional officer and a correctional supervisor?---No - I think 2 or $3000, if that, per annum.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5289
That is not substantial?---I don't think so, no.
PN5290
No?---No.
PN5291
What about a 52.5 per cent salary increase, is that substantial?---Well, it could be.
PN5292
Yes. Okay?--- It depends on what duties you do.
PN5293
Yes. Okay. In paragraph 6 of your statement, Mr Shorter, you make some reference to staffing levels?---Mm.
PN5294
This is CPSU10, the more lengthy written statement. Now, I think you indicated in response to a question from his Honour that you are a member of the workplace consultative committee?---Just - was that - what paragraph was that again, sorry?
PN5295
Paragraph 6?---Paragraph 6, thanks. Yes, I am a member, yes.
PN5296
And how long have you been a member of that committee?---Since the introduction of this present EBA.
PN5297
So we are talking July of last year?---Yes.
PN5298
Now in that 16, 17 month period, how often have staffing levels been raised as concerns of the committee?---At the committee - I have raised them myself quite a few times.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5299
Can you put a number to it?---No, I could not. We have a meeting once every month. On occasion we can't attend because we are off duty or perhaps on night shift and, yes, so - but I could say that it has been at least three or four times.
PN5300
And are your concerns or - ones which are shared by other officers and supervisors?---Yes, they are.
PN5301
And do they share them in the sort of concern and - that you have? You say it has long been a problem which to me suggests that you are extremely concerned about it, are they also very concerned about it?---They concerned, yes.
PN5302
Okay. Have there been any meetings on a mass level, in terms of meetings between yourselves and other delegates and the employees about the staffing levels?---The staffing levels have been brought up at those meetings, yes.
PN5303
What sort of meetings are these?---These are meetings that are conducted with members.
PN5304
Are they CPSU meetings, are they?---Yes, that is correct, yes.
PN5305
And these aren't stopwork meetings, are they?---No, they are not.
PN5306
What there are regular meetings held - what, over lunch or out of working hours?---No, we are not allowed to hold meetings on the site. We are very rarely allowed to hold meetings on the site. It is after hours normally and we have also had meetings at town halls with - - -
PN5307
Are you sure you are not going back to the days when there was still an enterprise agreement to which the Miscellaneous Workers' Union was a party, are you?---No. I wasn't a - - -
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5308
Are you sure you are not?---?--- - - - member of the union then.
PN5309
No?---No.
PN5310
Because my instructions are that CPSU meetings are allowed to be held on the premises during non-working hours, i.e. breaks and at end and beginning of shifts. That is the case, isn't it?---No. I have one meeting of after hours and I believe we have had meetings that have been agreed to during a Wednesday lockdown but not on a regular basis.
PN5311
So there have been CPSU meetings on the site?---There has been, yes, yes.
PN5312
I think initially you said there hadn't been, but you are now accepting that CPSU meetings do take place on the site?---No. I was saying that there hadn't been on a regular basis.
PN5313
Is that what you were saying?---Mm.
PN5314
Okay. Now as a result of those particular meetings, have any resolutions been passed in relation to staffing levels?---I can't recall I am afraid.
PN5315
There haven't been any resolutions passed at those meetings in relation to staffing levels, have there?---The issue has been brought up.
PN5316
There haven't been any resolutions passed, have there Mr Shorter?---I can't recall I am afraid.
PN5317
You are a CPSU delegate?---I am.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5318
You are one of three?---I am.
PN5319
You, as a delegate, have never delivered a report or a memo or a letter to any member of management expressing concerns about staffing levels, have you?---I have.
PN5320
You have, have you?---I have, and I have brought it up at workplace consultative committee meetings.
PN5321
No. I am talking about a report or a letter. You have never expressed your concerns in any written form to management, have you?---I have recently written a memo to the occupational health and safety committee regarding staffing levels in the medical management centre. I have also previously written a memo to the occupational health and safety committee regarding that issue. At other times it is brought up verbally at the workplace consultative committee where I have been told that it is an occupational health and safety issue and I should bring it up in that forum.
PN5322
Are you aware of which government authority administers, or is charge of the responsibility for looking after occupational health and safety in this state?---WorkCover.
PN5323
Is it through the WorkCover authority?---I believe so, yes.
PN5324
And are you aware that the Victorian WorkCover Authority has in the past gone out to Fulham?---Yes, I have.
PN5325
You are aware of that, aren't you?---Yes.
PN5326
And you are aware of the fact that the Victorian WorkCover Authority reviewed the staffing levels?---I believe that an inspector came out to the centre, yes.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5327
Yes?---I believe there was a pin notice put on.
PN5328
Well, in fact there was no pin but in fact, can I put to you that there has been a review by the VWA?---Mm.
PN5329
No improvement notice has ever been issued, has it?---I believe Mr Woodward placed one on the centre. I could be incorrect, but I believe he did - - -
PN5330
Well, you are - - -?--- - - - And that is the reason why - - -
PN5331
On my instructions you are incorrect. No improvement - - - ?---That is the reason why the workplace inspector came out to the centre.
PN5332
Well, just listen to the question?---Mm.
PN5333
The Victorian WorkCover Authority has never put an improvement notice in relation to staffing levels out at Fulham to your knowledge, has it?---Not the WorkCover Authority, no.
PN5334
Right. The Victorian WorkCover Authority has never to your knowledge put any form of prohibition notice on the centre in relation to staffing levels, has it?---Not to my knowledge, no.
PN5335
Yes. In fact, the Victorian WorkCover Authority and its inspectors have reviewed the staffing levels at the centre and have raised no objection to them, hasn't it?---I can't answer that because I asked - - -
PN5336
You can't deny that then?---I asked an inspector and she wouldn't talk to me because I was a union delegate, so I don't believe that there has been a pin - - -
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5337
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Sorry, which inspector wouldn't talk to you?---I believe it was Heather Hall from the WorkCover in Traralgon and she told me that I was a union delegate and that should would not speak to me regarding any matters because I wanted to speak to her about - well, if it hasn't been put on, I believe Mr Woodward put a pin notice on regarding staffing levels.
PN5338
MR D'ABACO: Is Mr Woodward an employee of the centre?---Yes, he is. He is an occupational health and safety representative.
PN5339
He is not an authority representative, is he?---An authority representative? No.
PN5340
He has actually been elected to that position by his fellow employees, hasn't he?---Yes, he has.
PN5341
Yes?---Can I finish with his Honour?
PN5342
Yes, certainly?---Yes. It is my understanding that Mr Woodward - - -
PN5343
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No - sorry, I don't want you to go into that. I am just curious that a WorkCover Authority inspector wouldn't speak to you for the reason that you were a union delegate?---That is correct.
PN5344
It seems rather odd?---Well, that is what I thought. I asked to - if I could come and speak to her and she told me that she had a National Health and Safety Week and was too busy. The only other time - - -
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5345
Yes, but she didn't say it because you were a union delegate?---She said that - she said that if I was a union delegate I don't have to talk to you. I said, well: "I am representing the staff over staffing issues. I would like to speak you regarding it and what can be done". And I was told, well, you are union delegate. So I don't know - as I say, I don't have any experience with the occupational health and safety WorkCover and I didn't know what my rights were or obligations were with that.
PN5346
Well - sorry.
PN5347
MR D'ABACO: Are you aware of any other action having been taken by the WorkCover Authority in relation to staffing levels other than this review that I have just referred to?---No. I believe there was - with the WorkCover Authority, no. With the - - -
PN5348
In relation to staffing levels, I am asking?---Are we talking the committee as in the occupational health and safety committee or - - -
PN5349
No. The Victorian WorkCover Authority?---Okay. With the WorkCover Authority, no, I can't say.
PN5350
And you understand, don't you, that it is the Victorian WorkCover Authority which has the ultimate obligation to enforce obligations under the Occupational Health and Safety Act?---Yes.
PN5351
Okay?---Actually - excuse me. Sorry, I have recalled a risk assessment being conducted there, but I couldn't recall whether there was person from the WorkSafe or WorkCover that was involved in that. I believe that the committee did it under their guidance. That was in regards to staffing and the double-ups and - - -
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5352
And would you accept that if there was a real risk in relation to staffing levels, the Victorian WorkCover Authority would have done something about it?---Well, I think if a person comes into the prison for one day and walks around the prison and makes a judgment on that then that is their judgment to make which is the reason why I wanted to speak to Heather, because I have sat across in that plaza area from upwards of 200 to 300 prisoners on four or five occasions and they are not wanting to go back into their cell. And then I look around at the 20 or 30 staff and think, well, and I can tell you now, I had only wished that Ms Stevenson was with me on those occasions.
PN5353
What would you need 200 or 300 prisoner officers to get them into their cells, would you?---Well, it would certainly be a lot more comfortable than only having four or five.
PN5354
Okay. Now, in relation to the introduction of the double-ups, you gave some evidence earlier today that the introduction was first mooted with staff at town hall meetings?---I believe that was correct, yes.
PN5355
Yes. And town hall meetings are open forums which are held where management will advise staff of any initiatives or any changes which are contemplated being introduced, aren't they?---Yes, they do.
PN5356
And usually at those meetings they are addressed by Mr Myers?---On occasion Mr Myers or whoever the operation manager at that stage, I believe Dom Crorera or Mr Senior, but, yes, someone from management.
PN5357
They are open forum where employees are entitled to say something if they wish to do so?---Yes, they can.
PN5358
And you think - you would agree with me that it is a good initiative to have those sorts of meetings?---Yes.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5359
Those sorts of forums?---Yes.
PN5360
And they are the sorts of meetings and forums where employees have an opportunity to say something?---Mm.
PN5361
And they actually take up that opportunity to say something?---They do.
PN5362
And I think you have indicated that when Mr Myers conducted the town hall meeting in relation to the initial introduction of double-ups a number of employees spoke up and either expressed concerns or asked some questions in relation to it, didn't they?---I would agree with that, yes.
PN5363
Now I think the evidence you gave was that a number of people didn't actually - or were unable to attend the first meeting, were they? Because they were either - - -?---Off shift people - - -
PN5364
- - - working night shift or off?---Yes, off - yes. It is probably - I would - at a guesstimate say it was probably a third of the staff attended.
PN5365
All right. Are you sure that there was only one town hall meeting held?---I couldn't say how many town hall meetings were held because as the others, I would have been off duty if they had had another one. They normally hold them on a Wednesday, so, yes.
PN5366
My instructions are that Mr Myers actually held three town hall meetings so as to ensure that as many employees as possible were told about the proposed changes. You are not in a position to disagree with that, are you?---No, I am not, no.
PN5367
All right. And that would be a fairly effective measure to try to capture, as it were, as many employees as possible to tell them about what was going to be going on?---I would agree with that. I think there is other measures that are move effective, but that is a good one.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5368
Such as a written memorandum?---Yes, attached to a payslip, perhaps.
PN5369
Yes. Just bear with me a moment please, your Honour. But you would agree with me, wouldn't you, that rather than putting something baldly in a memo, having a meeting where people can actually ask questions and get answers on the spot is usually a much more effective method of communication?---Yes, I would agree with that.
PN5370
Okay. Now, once employee response was invited there were then other consultative steps which were taken before the implementation of the first tranche of double-ups, weren't there?---Such as?
PN5371
Well, the issue then moved to the workplace consultative committee, didn't it?---I assume it would have. I wasn't a part of that committee then, so - - -
PN5372
Right, well evidence will be given that the proposal was then put to the workplace consultative committee and further deliberations took place there?---Mm.
PN5373
Now you would agree with me, wouldn't you, that that is a fairly proper and effective method of consultation with employees?---With the committee members, yes.
PN5374
Well, you have had a town hall meeting - - -?---You mean the whole - - -
PN5375
Yes, the whole process?---Yes, okay. I accept that.
PN5376
You would accept that?---Yes.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5377
Okay. And it could have been done in many different other ways, couldn't it, it could have just happened overnight and employees would have to wear it? It could have been done that way?---I don't think they would have done it that way.
PN5378
No?---I think there would have been problems if it had have been.
PN5379
But it is also because it is not the style with which this particular centre is administered, is it?---Not initially, no.
PN5380
Right. In fact at this centre there is a high degree of employee interaction and so-forth, isn't there?---I don't agree with that statement. I agree that Mr Myers will go down to a town hall meeting, but I have been to town hall meetings there where staff don't seem to participate and take the opportunity to ask him the questions and I find that they tend to come and ask - well, committee members such as myself, and ask them to bring them up in that forum. Now I don't recall on the double-ups that there was minutes as there are now and that you could read the minutes as a result of those consultative committee meetings, and as I have said, some staff members didn't attend those town hall meetings because they were rostered off, so it can be effective but it also has its down-side.
PN5381
I think you would accept, wouldn't you, that at the end of the day there is no method which is going to be perfect?---No, there is no method that is going to be perfect. I think that the method that we have now is better than it was back then.
PN5382
In terms of staffing levels, one of the factors which you say compromises safety is the fact that often there will be officers who just simply don't attend for whatever reason, if they are either on leave or sick leave or whatever, is that correct?---I agree with that, yes.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5383
And your concern is that there aren't officers, as it were, who can automatically just step in and fill the breach, as it were, is that what you say the situation is?---To a degree, yes.
PN5384
But it is true, isn't it, that there are a variety of measures which can e taken by management to see that any unexpected vacancy is covered? There are a number of different measures, aren't there?---Such as?
PN5385
Well, the first measure is that there is a pool of casual employees over 40, aren't there?---There is now.
PN5386
Well, I am talking about now?---Mm.
PN5387
There is currently a pool of over 40 casual employees, isn't there?---There is now, yes.
PN5388
And so if there is a vacancy because an officer or a supervisor reports in sick or there has been a problem in the family, the first recourse is that the unit manager can call upon a casual?---What the first is the shift manager actually does it as part of - - -
PN5389
I am sorry, a shift manager can call upon a casual?---Yes, yes. That is right. Or another staff member that is off duty.
PN5390
Well, that is a difference - firstly to a casual. There is a pool of 40 casuals who can be called upon, do you accept that?---I wouldn't accept there is 40 casuals because a large number of the casuals work in a full-time capacity there now. Even though they are casuals the tend to get their full shifts now, so - - -
PN5391
That is because some of the casuals then are working at the time, but there is a pool of casual employees, do you accept that?---There is a pool of casual employees, yes.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5392
Okay. Now if there isn't a casual employee available, a shift manager can call upon a permanent staff member who is actually not rostered on for duty to come in, can't he?---On overtime, if the budget allows it, yes.
PN5393
Yes. And if that person is available then they can be called in and as yo said, if permission is given, they come in to fill in a breach, if necessary?---If necessary. If they agree to the overtime, yes.
PN5394
All right. Let us say that they don't agree or they are not available, you then have a third step of redeploying officers from unit to another, depending upon operational requirements?---No. I believe it is from the internal security officers.
PN5395
Well, that is - no, we haven't got to that one yet?---Mm.
PN5396
What I am saying is that a third possibility, and we are not necessarily going down in descending order, but a third possibility is that a correctional officer or a correctional supervisor can be deployed from one area to another to cover a vacancy?---Well, I can't see how because then that - the area that that officer came from would require someone to fill their breach.
PN5397
Well, let us just say that we have an average day out on the minimum security cottages, have you ever worked in the minimum security cottages, Mr Shorter?---Only one day in the minimum security cottages.
PN5398
Okay. Now you understand that the minimum security cottages house prisoners who, you know, provide the least possible risk to both themselves and their fellow prisoners, that is why they are in minimum security?---I believe they provided the minimum risk of escaping. I don't believe any prisoner can be judged by a security rating - or if they are a C2, they are okay, I think all prisoners can be a risk to anyone.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5399
So even if someone is in there for some form of embezzlement or fraud, that particular person can pose a physical threat to another prisoner?---Of course. And to a staff member.
PN5400
Okay. Even though they don't have any history of violence or anything like that they can still be a risk - - -?---Yes.
PN5401
- - - of violence?---Anybody can be a risk at any time to anyone.
PN5402
Any individual?---Any individual.
PN5403
Me?---Yes.
PN5404
You, him?---That is correct.
PN5405
Okay. And in relation to the minimum security cottages, you understand, don't you, that seven or eight of those prisoners on a daily basis go out to the farm?---I - as I say, I have never worked there. I believe there is a farm but I couldn't tell you the numbers that go out. I have no experience.
PN5406
Okay?---Yes.
PN5407
You know that about half of the prisoners leave the minimum security unit on a daily basis to go to various other areas of the prison to work? In the industries area, the kitchen and canteen area?---Once again, I know they work in those areas but I couldn't go figures.
PN5408
Yes?---I just haven't been there, so - - -
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5409
And you know also there is a substantial number or prisoners there in the area of maybe 10 to 15 who, on a daily basis, go out on community bush gangs, and so-forth and work out in the community?---I believe there is a party that goes out, yes.
PN5410
Yes. And Mr De Moel accepted yesterday during the course of cross-examination that it could well be that on any one day you might have as little as five prisoners and maybe up to 15 or 20 prisoners actually located within the minimum security area - - - ?---Mm.
PN5411
- - - because all the others are out. Now, if that is the case, two correctional staff would be more than enough to look after 15 minimum security prisoners, wouldn't they?---Well, I disagree with that because you have, I believe, 24 different accommodation areas. Those two officers still have to conduct daily duties, urinalyses, cell searching, security of the area, it is not just - we don't just watch prisoners, we watch the actual prison itself. They have to maintain the security of the cottages to make sure other prisoners aren't going down there. So it is - there is still a substantial duty.
PN5412
Two officers wouldn't be enough to do that?---Well, if you have to leave one in the fishbowl area, which is the observation area at all times, then no, because you are putting one staff member out by themself and that is against their practice for safety. You should have two officers at all times. So at a minimum you would have three in a unit. At a minimum which was - one would be a supervisor and the other two could possibly be casuals that have been filled in and may not have worked in cottages before.
PN5413
Because what I am putting to you is this, Mr Shorter, that there is flexibility within the operations of the prison to assess whether a particular area or unit poses a high risk or a lower risk and if you can assess that it poses a low risk, there is flexibility there to be able to move officers from one area to another to satisfy particular needs. You don't believe there is that degree of flexibility?---I don't believe so because the officers in each area have their - each unit is different in their tasks, duties and responsibilities to a degree.
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
They are all similar but they also have other jobs to do. Induction unit - they have duties to do with induction that aren't done in Lima 7. Lima 7 has a short-term unit. The drug unit has different duties there and to say that they have only got 20 prisoners or 10 prisoners so therefore their job is easier, doesn't necessarily correlate.
PN5414
All right?---So I would have to disagree with that. You can swap staff but I believe by robbing Peter to pay Paul you just - all you are doing is creating a void there, that someone has to do the work that officer is not doing in that unit.
PN5415
Right. Have you ever heard about juggling commitments, or juggling things?---I have heard the saying, yes.
PN5416
Yes. And do you believe that if you have to actually juggle things that necessarily is going to lead to some sort of compromise in safety of efficiency, is that your view?---I believe that if you leave an area with less than the required staff, if an emergency situation arose or if a prisoner that, you know, previously was quite a friendly prisoner, can snap, if you leave it with two officers, it can create a big problem, yes.
PN5417
And if you had the worst possible case scenario where none of those various steps that I have outlined could be undertaken, management would always then have the - in a short staffing situation, would always have the possibility of simply closing a unit down and actually restricting the prisoners to the unit, wouldn't it?---They would have that option but I have never seen it done.
PN5418
And can I suggest to you that the reason it has never been done is because there has always been more than other - there have always been adequate measures which can be put in place and have been put in place to prevent that sort of thing happening?---I would disagree with that because what they tend to do is send a couple of internal security staff up to the unit to replace the unit staff that may not be present thereby - - -
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5419
These are the - are these the sierras?---These are sierras, yes, internal security who may or may not be, depending on the unit manager, may be our CERT2 team as well, so they are the second back-up for CERT response. So once again, the dynamic security on the internal or external areas within the fence at the centre is compromised because they are now replacing other staff in units.
PN5420
And the sierras were actually introduced at the prison as a result of the implementation of double-ups, weren't they?---No, that is not correct.
PN5421
That is not correct?---The sierras have always been in the prison. There is two - yes, that is right - Mr Myers - - -
PN5422
I am sorry, an additional two sierras were appointed as a result of - - - ?---That is correct.
PN5423
- - - the implementation of double-ups?---One on night shift and one on the day.
PN5424
Okay. All right.
PN5425
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr D'Abaco, could I indicate that I was proposing to finish at 4 o'clock this afternoon because I have another matter at 4 o'clock.
PN5426
MR D'ABACO: Yes. I was about to move onto another discrete area - - -
PN5427
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I see.
PN5428
MR D'ABACO: - - - and I won't be able to dispense with in the time - - -
**** JOHN GERARD SHORTER XXN MR D'ABACO
PN5429
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: In 10 minutes?
PN5430
MR D'ABACO: - - - allotted, so that may well be a convenient time, your Honour, yes.
PN5431
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right. Well in any event, we will just go off the record and work out what is happening about the continuation of this matter. Mr Shorter, as you are under cross-examination, you shouldn't discuss your evidence with any other members of the prison during the course of the adjournment?---Yes, your Honour.
PN5432
PN5433
MR DOUGLAS: We wouldn't ask for that restriction to take on an unreasonable position, your Honour.
PN5434
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right.
PN5435
MR DOUGLAS: I accept this of Mr Shorter's integrity. I don't wish that to be enforced.
PN5436
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, Mr Douglas. Well, counsel have heard that in any event. They can tell Mr Shorter the implications. Can we just go off the record for a moment.
OFF THE RECORD
PN5437
THE SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT: During the period of the adjournment, there have been some discussions about other dates necessary to complete this matter. At this stage the matter is fixed for hearing on the 10th to 13 February and the 17th to the - sorry, the 12th to 14 March and 17 March and there are three other dates yet to be decided. Very well, I will adjourn then till 10 February.
ADJOURNED UNTIL 10 FEBRUARY 2002 [4.00pm]
INDEX
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs |
MICHAEL DE MOEL, ON FORMER OATH PN4609
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR D'ABACO PN4609
EXHIBIT #ACM8 CORRECTIONAL SUPERVISOR JOB DESCRIPTION PN4738
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAWRENCE PN4814
WITNESS WITHDREW PN4894
JOHN GERARD SHORTER, SWORN PN4895
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR LAWRENCE PN4895
EXHIBIT #CPSU19 LIST OF OPERATIONAL STAFF AT FULHAM PRISON PN5004
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR D'ABACO PN5006
WITNESS WITHDREW PN5433
AustLII:
Copyright Policy
|
Disclaimers
|
Privacy Policy
|
Feedback
URL: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/AIRCTrans/2003/12.html