C2003/1999, Transcript of Proceedings [2003] AIRCTrans 1760 (13 May 2003)

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

COMMISSIONER HODDER

C2003/1999

TRANSPORT WORKERS' UNION OF AUSTRALIA

and

QANTAS FLIGHT CATERING LIMITED

Notification pursuant to Section 99 of the Act
of a dispute re rostering arrangements for
international galley drivers

BRISBANE

2.43 PM, TUESDAY, 29 APRIL 2003

PN1

THE COMMISSIONER: Can I have appearances please?

PN2

MR D. PRIOR: As it pleases the Commission, my name is Prior, initial D, industrial officer for the Transport Workers' Union Australia, Queensland branch. With me I have PETER PAULOS, TWU organiser; to his right, PAULA STEVENS, and to her right, TONI SORANSON.

PN3

MR J. McKENZIE: If the Commission pleases, McKenzie, initial J. I appear for Qantas Flight Catering Limited. I have with me MESSRS J. McDONALD and H. QUIGLEY from the company and also MS T. EDWARDS.

PN4

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Prior?

PN5

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Commissioner. We thank the Commission for listing this matter in the circumstances. It comes about as a result of correspondence that went to the Commission on, I understand, last week in relation to this listing and that correspondence relates - - -

PN6

THE COMMISSIONER: 15 April is - - -

PN7

MR PRIOR: The 15th, yes. I've got quite a few pieces in front of me. I'm just going back over the previous correspondence. So the letter of Tuesday 15 April identified three things that were outstanding as at that time, Commissioner. They are the dot points that appear on the first page. Since the listing of the matter appropriately for today, Qantas have actually written to us in correspondence dated 24 April that we received at approximately 5pm. I have a copy of that correspondence for the Commission's benefit and we have answered that correspondence as at Monday 28 April in the circumstances. So I tender those for the Commission's perusal.

PN8

Commissioner, effectively, in relation to those two letters, Qantas has answered our correspondence of Tuesday 15 April. In that correspondence of two pages, they've indicated some processes and activity which they say satisfies those requirements. In relation to that letter, we wrote back to them Monday of this week indicating that their correspondence illustrated some workplace activity, however it did not address the three issues, which were the dot points of the letter of Tuesday 15 April. In that regard and going into greater detail to illustrate how those three items that were outstanding have not been complied with, we asked that Toni Edwards, who was in attendance at the discussions that did take place, to attend today - and we thank the company for making her available. We also asked that shop committee members be available today to discuss what those problems were in terms of what activity did not take place. Commissioner, for your benefit, if appropriate to go into greater detail, we would seek to break into conference with the company - - -

PN9

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, what I want you to tell me is what did we agree to last time that the parties were going to go away and do?

PN10

MR PRIOR: Well, in that capacity, Commissioner, we hoped to have fruitful discussion and an ongoing relationship.

PN11

THE COMMISSIONER: No. I thought there was something more than that. I thought that both parties undertook to do certain things, which is why I was surprised to get your letter.

PN12

MR PRIOR: Well, Commissioner, I - - -

PN13

THE COMMISSIONER: I understood there was agreement that there'd be roster committees established and there'd be discussions about new rosters. I thought on the last occasion we went through a host of issues that surrounded potential rosters and what people tried to negotiate in terms of offsets and so forth and that when the parties left this Commission last time, they had a clear agenda between them as to what they intended to do. Now, I don't know - I mean, I'm going from memory, but that's my last recollection of what occurred in this very hearing room.

PN14

MR PRIOR: Certainly, Commissioner, and to support what you've just said, we understand that discussions did take place, however - - -

PN15

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I hope you do. You were here.

PN16

MR PRIOR: Indeed, Commissioner. And in that regard, the parties went off to have fruitful discussions. Discussions did take place, however at the end of those discussions, no roster committee was forthcoming and the new roster that has been put in place for international drivers - our workplace delegate has indicated there was not the proper consultation with the appropriate people. In that capacity, that point has not been satisfied and reluctantly, in the circumstances, we tried to resolve the issue. I understand, from Toni Soranson, that another meeting was conducted which didn't resolve the thing in terms of saying, "Well, what's the committee? How will it be constructed? Who will be on it?". The problem, from our perspective - - -

PN17

THE COMMISSIONER: But I thought we identified people to do certain things.

PN18

MR PRIOR: Well, that was my understanding too, Commissioner, but the problem was that discussions were held - - -

PN19

THE COMMISSIONER: Does anyone have the transcript of the last time this matter was before the Commission?

PN20

MR PRIOR: Certainly, Commissioner - and to the extent that that's an ongoing relationship - - -

PN21

THE COMMISSIONER: No. I want to know what you were supposed to do and I want to know what was actually done. I don't want somebody reinventing the wheel on me every time you come back here.

PN22

MR PRIOR: Certainly, Commissioner. I'm just going from my notes when we were last - - -

PN23

THE COMMISSIONER: I understood that both parties read something onto the record, unless my memory fails me. Then again, that could be the case. In fact, almost the same people other than perhaps Ms Stevens were sitting at the bar table last time - and other than for Mr Quigley and Miss Edwards for Qantas.

PN24

MR PRIOR: Yes, Commissioner. The notes that - - -

PN25

THE COMMISSIONER: Now, I want to know if you agreed to something last time, why hasn't it been done? That's what I want to know. But I want to know what was agreed so I've asked my associated to get the transcript from those last proceedings to see. So I'm going to take a short adjournment and if you people have got something in your records, I'll have you draw that to my notice when I resume, but I'm going to adjourn briefly to try and ascertain what it was we did do on the last occasion.

PN26

MR PRIOR: Certainly, Commissioner.

PN27

THE COMMISSIONER: So on that basis, I'll adjourn.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [2.43pm]

RESUMED [2.54pm]

PN28

THE COMMISSIONER: Now, the last occasion this matter was before the Commission was Monday, 17 March, and that notification arose because of some correspondence that Mr Williams had directed to QFCL. The upshot of all of that was that after we'd had some discussion on the record we went into private conference and then when we went back on the record, this is what is recorded:

PN29

THE COMMISSIONER: The parties have met in private conference under the chairmanship ...(reads)... thing the Commission can do is give the parties leave to have this matter re-listed.

PN30

That's why I'm a little bit confused, Mr Prior. We've now got another file under way about the same issues. Now, all I'm asking you is what did the parties do about what was the outcome of the last conference?

PN31

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Commissioner. In relation to the application of the 10-hour and the 8.6 roster, Toni Soranson is the workplace delegate and I'll just ask her to explain how that was communicated back to the company and where the parties have come since being last before you on 17 March.

PN32

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay, all right. Ms Soranson.

PN33

MS SORANSON: Commissioner, the 8.6 and the 10-hour rosters, we've reached agreement on that and those trial rosters are now in the workplace. They're taking place - - -

PN34

THE COMMISSIONER: Just slow down to 50 miles per hour.

PN35

MS SORANSON: Sorry.

PN36

THE COMMISSIONER: So we've got agreement as - - -

PN37

MS SORANSON: On the 8.6 and - - -

PN38

THE COMMISSIONER: As to 8.6-hour rosters where?

PN39

MS SORANSON: In domestic drivers and domestic make-up.

PN40

THE COMMISSIONER: Domestic drivers, domestic make-up, yes. And where else?

PN41

MS SORANSON: We have agreement with the 10-hour roster in the bond store area.

PN42

THE COMMISSIONER: 10-hour in bond, yes, okay.

PN43

MS SORANSON: And those trial rosters are going ahead and as per the agreement they've met every two weeks since then to review them.

PN44

THE COMMISSIONER: So you've got trial rosters under way in those two areas.

PN45

MS SORANSON: Yes.

PN46

THE COMMISSIONER: Domestic drivers, domestic make-up and - - -

PN47

MS SORANSON: Yes.

PN48

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - in bond? That's 8.6 in the first two instances and 10 hours in - - -

PN49

MS SORANSON: 10 hours in the second.

PN50

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - the latter instance. Okay. All right. So what's outstanding?

PN51

MS SORANSON: This is a new roster and a different area and it's not involving flexible working hours. The roster was changed due to a schedule change - - -

PN52

THE COMMISSIONER: Wait on. Which area are we talking about?

PN53

MS SORANSON: The international drivers and galleys.

PN54

THE COMMISSIONER: International drivers. So was it not included in that discussion that we had - - -

PN55

MS SORANSON: No. No, Commissioner, it was not.

PN56

THE COMMISSIONER: So wasn't it an issue at that time?

PN57

MS SORANSON: No, Commissioner. The international drivers' roster - it's a different area. It doesn't have rotation shifts, it has set rosters.

PN58

THE COMMISSIONER: So what was the intention in terms of which hours those persons were going to work?

PN59

MS SORANSON: It wasn't so much the hours, it's the roster changed due to a schedule change and the schedule change was 28 or 30 March and the rosters were to take place on 2 April.

PN60

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Now, in terms of the discussion that we had on 17 March, where did that roster sit in those discussions?

PN61

MS SORANSON: That was never - we'd never - - -

PN62

THE COMMISSIONER: So it wasn't part of it.

PN63

MS SORANSON: It was an area that has never been afforded a roster committee and which resulted in the operations manager forming a roster and implementing the roster without consultation.

PN64

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. So what obligation did he have to have consultation?

PN65

MS SORANSON: Well, there was no obligation. We didn't have a roster committee set up - - -

PN66

THE COMMISSIONER: No, did he have an obligation to have any consultation?

PN67

MS SORANSON: In this instance, we believe yes. It resulted in - - -

PN68

THE COMMISSIONER: Why?

PN69

MS SORANSON: - - - a couple of issues. The first issue - - -

PN70

THE COMMISSIONER: No. Well, why do you say he had an obligation?

PN71

MS SORANSON: Why? Because it was - the rosters implemented certainly - it changed some people's rosters and some people didn't suffer any change. It - - -

PN72

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, but I - - -

PN73

MS SORANSON: - - - was - - -

PN74

THE COMMISSIONER: What I'm trying to get you to tell me is under what instrument did he have an obligation to consult?

PN75

MS SORANSON: With the work group?

PN76

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Yes, what section of the award or the agreement did he have an obligation to do this under? I mean, I'm trying to get a handle on what obligations he had to the work group - - -

PN77

MS SORANSON: Well, I believe - - -

PN78

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - or the manager - - -

PN79

MS SORANSON: Well, the manager didn't feel obligated - - -

PN80

THE COMMISSIONER: No. Did he - - -

PN81

MS SORANSON: - - - to discuss it with the work group.

PN82

THE COMMISSIONER: But did he have a legal obligation to do that is what I'm trying to ascertain from you.

PN83

MR PRIOR: I understand in the context of that question, Commissioner, there is no specific provision in the award or the agreement per se that expressly says - - -

PN84

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. So - - -

PN85

MR PRIOR: - - - that the parties must meet and - - -

PN86

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. So how are rosters normally constructed?

PN87

MS SORANSON: Well, they're normally constructed through no consultation, but since we've set up roster committees in places in certain groups - this is one of the groups that need a roster committee - - -

PN88

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. So that's what you're seeking today, is it? You want the right to have some input and some consultation about the nature of the rosters where the international drivers are concerned?

PN89

MS SORANSON: Certainly.

PN90

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. So is that the situation we've got today?

PN91

MR PRIOR: That is, Commissioner, and in that regard, in relation to the notice that was put in on the Tuesday 15 April - that notice identified the area being international galley drivers, identified that there was a schedule change on 30 March and the parties in good faith had attempted to meet and confer about a roster committee for this area, however that was unsuccessful. And the dot points reflect the attempts that the parties had made to resolve problems over the roster being introduced in this particular area and the dot points reflect what the problems are.

PN92

THE COMMISSIONER: So what are the sort of problems that have been created, you say, by this roster which has now been imposed, I guess is one way to - created and imposed.

PN93

MR PRIOR: Well, in a general sense, I understand that there has been some consensus with the international drivers to the roster as imposed, but I understand behind that there is resentment about the roster itself.

PN94

THE COMMISSIONER: Well - - -

PN95

MR PRIOR: To go into greater detail, I will hand over to - - -

PN96

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, yes, but - - -

PN97

MR PRIOR: - - - the delegate.

PN98

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - a resentment by who?

PN99

MR PRIOR: Again, I'll ask - - -

PN100

MS SORANSON: Commissioner, this - - -

PN101

THE COMMISSIONER: And to what extent?

PN102

MS SORANSON: Commissioner, this first came to light when the rosters changed because there's five people belonging to the work group who are on 100 per cent loading before 7 o'clock - 7am - and those rosters were changed by the operations manager to save money. The rosters - - -

PN103

THE COMMISSIONER: Most rosters normally are changed to save money.

PN104

MS SORANSON: I understand that, Commissioner, but these rosters were given out to these people in good faith two years ago, through integration, because we always had rotation shifts back then and the company won right to have set rosters in that area due to they wanted the same faces on the same plane and now that that doesn't seem to be an argument any more, they don't want that. So what we're seeking is that if - for fair and equity that the rosters go rotation.

PN105

THE COMMISSIONER: Which would mean what?

PN106

MS SORANSON: Which would mean that the people that are - currently got 100 per cent loadings before 7 can have a rotational basis to have access to 3am starts, 4 o'clock starts in the morning - - -

PN107

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. So how many people - - -

PN108

MS SORANSON: We'll - - -

PN109

THE COMMISSIONER: How many people are we talking about all up?

PN110

MS SORANSON: There's five people - but that's only one side issue. There's other issues regarding this roster - that we have people that are rostered permanent late shift and they have requested that - - -

PN111

THE COMMISSIONER: What, out of these five people?

PN112

MS SORANSON: No, no. There's a lot more issues to this roster than just - - -

PN113

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that's what I said. How many people have we got involved in international drivers?

PN114

MS SORANSON: There's 22 people altogether.

PN115

THE COMMISSIONER: 22, all right. So the first cab off the rank is five people in a particular roster - - -

PN116

MS SORANSON: Yes.

PN117

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - who you say you want them to be able to rotate so that there's an even share of the penalty rates? Is that what you're talking about?

PN118

MS SORANSON: Yes. Well - - -

PN119

MS STEVENS: Can I - sorry.

PN120

MS SORANSON: Yes.

PN121

MS STEVENS: It's not only financial, sir, it's also social as well and it all comes to the point where we've got people, as we said, doing permanent late shift; we've got some doing permanent earlys; some earning X amount of dollars - - -

PN122

THE COMMISSIONER: How long have they been doing this for?

PN123

MS SORANSON: Since integration.

PN124

MS STEVENS: I don't know whether you recall or not, sir, but in the beginning during the integration when we first - I think it was Commissioner Hodder that we saw and you explicitly said to us, "You can't do a roster. You can't complain about a roster without doing it". And that's what's happened now. We've done it, but what happens is, some promises have been made along the way where we've had certain drivers where the rosters have not changed in two years; we've had certain rosters where drivers - their rosters have changed continually. Now, promises have been made to certain ones. What we're saying is, you can't accommodate everybody, so let's be fair to everybody, and we don't see that's what's happening at the moment.

PN125

THE COMMISSIONER: So you are saying that the current situation lacks equity?

PN126

MS SORANSON: Yes.

PN127

MS STEVENS: That's exactly right, sir.

PN128

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Okay. Do you want to say anything further, Mr Prior?

PN129

MR PRIOR: Not at this point, Commissioner - only to say that, if appropriate, we seek to break into conference with your assistance.

PN130

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I'd need to know what I'm talking about if we're going into conference. I'll need to know a little bit more than I know now.

PN131

MR PRIOR: Indeed, Commissioner.

PN132

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr McKenzie?

PN133

MR McKENZIE: Thank you, Commissioner. You have raised issues in relation to the labour mix at the outset of these proceedings which are relevant. However, as I think Mr Prior has indicated, the nature of the notification as we understand it primarily relates to rosters which were introduced as a result of a schedule change on 28 March. And I might say that the concerns raised by the TWU only relate to one particular area concerning the schedule change and the revised rosters, and that is in the international driving area where there are 22 employees.

PN134

Commissioner, the company has had to introduce a whole range of measures to address the declining passenger numbers and also declining flights, as well as international - I'm sorry, as well as revenue, and address those responsibly. There has been, since January, a marked decrease in the number of meals and passengers flown out of QFCL Brisbane. There has also been a marked decrease in the number of flights, particularly international flights which have been serviced by QFCL Brisbane, and there's also, as a result of that, a marked reduction in the amount of revenue. There is, Commissioner, no end in sight of that - of that continual decline at this stage. In the short term, the situation does not like it will improve. In fact, it will probably get worse. Commissioner, the number of initiates have been put in place by management across the business.

PN135

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you, Mr McKenzie.

PN136

MR McKENZIE: A number of initiates have been put in place by management across the business. They relate to, for example, employees being placed on to non-penalty shifts. That's in an area which is not in international drivers, a number of areas where they have had changed start times, where there have been decreased penalties as a result. They are in a number of areas, including international drivers. The non-coverage of sick leave, workers compensation and days in lieu has occurred in a number of areas. That, also, has impacted the employment of casuals. And the fourth point is, there has been a marked reduction in the number of - in the amount of overtime which has been available, particularly as a result of no coverage of absences.

PN137

So, Commissioner, what has been put in place in the international driving area is reflective of what has happened across the business as a result of the implementation of the schedule change at 28 March. And that, as I said, is in response to the marked deterioration in business conditions which face not only QFCL but also Qantas and the other airline companies. To put that in some perspective, Commissioner, the client airlines - when I say "client airlines" I mean international airlines - are seeking to decrease costs to their particular operations, that is all of the customers are seeking to decrease costs and, as a result, there is either a changed product or decreased specification in, for example, meals and other in-flight services, or there is, for example, simply a request to decrease costs of service.

PN138

So in that current climate the company has had to look at how it will address rosters for this current northern summer schedule and, if I may, Commissioner, refer to the letter which was tendered by Mr Prior. There has been since 28 March a number of meetings with the employees informally and also with representatives of the shop committee. There has been at least eight formal meetings. There has been numerous informal meetings, plus there has been two memorandums to staff in relation to this particular roster in this particular area. And I can tender both of those, if I may, Commissioner. I understand that the delegates may have a copy. If not, I'll provide one to them.

PN139

THE COMMISSIONER: What I might do is - the correspondence that you handed up earlier, Mr Prior, given that this is now a new file, that was your correspondence, or Mr Williams's correspondence, of 28 April in response to correspondence from the QFCL to Mr Williams of 24 April. I'll mark that as TWU exhibit 1. And the correspondence you're now referring me to, Mr McKenzie, I'll mark as QFCL - there are two pieces of correspondence dated 17 April and 24 April, they'll be, insofar as the 17 April memorandum, that will be QFCL exhibit 1, and the memorandum of 24 April will be QFCL exhibit 2.

EXHIBIT #TWU1 LETTER FROM MR WILLIAMS DATED 28/04/2003 IN RESPONSE TO LETTER FROM QFCL TO MR WILLIAMS DATED 24/04/2003

EXHIBIT #QFCL1 MEMORANDUM DATED 17/04/2003

EXHIBIT #QFCL2 MEMORANDUM DATED 24/04/2003

PN140

MR McKENZIE: If I could take - - -

PN141

THE COMMISSIONER: Do you have a copy of those, Mr Prior? Yes, thank you, Mr McKenzie.

PN142

MR McKENZIE: If I could take you to the correspondence to Mr Williams on 24 April and, in particular, in relation to the third paragraph - fourth paragraph. It's the view of the QFCL management, Commissioner, that there's only two employees out of group of 22 that - - -

PN143

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry. Which paragraph now?

PN144

MR McKENZIE: The fourth paragraph.

PN145

THE COMMISSIONER: Which commences, "To our knowledge, only two employees".

PN146

MR McKENZIE: Yes.

PN147

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN148

MR McKENZIE: That's correct. It's the view of QFCL, Commissioner, that there was only two out of a group, the workforce, or the work group of 22 in international drivers that have expressed concerns with the current roster arrangements. There has been a number of options which have been put to those two particular employees in relation to their concerns about loss of income, and that is addressed in that letter, and also in the memorandum which is marked exhibit QFCL1 and QFCL2. In short, Commissioner, the employees were offered options of a rotating roster in Queensland Rail or a rotating roster in the water toilet truck, or covering an employee that is on long term workers compensation whose name is Mark Nelson, and also the rotating roster to cover absences.

PN149

Those options, Commissioner, in our assessment, particularly the Queensland Rail and the water and - particularly the Mark Nelson roster, the Queensland Rail options would actually increase revenue for the two employees concerned, in our assessment. Those options have been rejected by the two employees concerned. Those options, Commissioner, have been rejected by the two employees concerned. The two employees have advised the company - - -

PN150

THE COMMISSIONER: This is in relation to QFCL1, is it?

PN151

MR McKENZIE: In relation to QFCL1. That's correct. I might say, Commissioner, that we understand the position of the employees concerned is they will only work an 8.6 hour rotating roster. So - with a 4 day break and - - -

PN152

THE COMMISSIONER: What, so they've decided that that's their roster?

PN153

MR McKENZIE: That's their roster. That's, we understand, the position. That's based on advice that's been provided by them to management directly.

PN154

THE COMMISSIONER: So this is Rocco Rioti and Barry Clapham, is it?

PN155

MR McKENZIE: I'm sorry, there's two employees, Mr Frost and Mr Kling.

PN156

THE COMMISSIONER: I see. And Mr Kling.

PN157

MR McKENZIE: Yes, who have expressed that view to the company. So, Commissioner, we believe that - the other thing that we've offered, Commissioner, which is important in this is that we have offered the employees concerned to look at establishing why the variable roster, or rotating roster, I should say, it actually more operationally suitable that the current fixed roster in the international drivers area. The company has offered the employees concerned time off the job, as well as other resources, to actually undertake that assessment. That assessment - that offer was made in early April and was only taken up last week. In the course of the Easter break and ANZAC holiday it actually hasn't occurred yet.

PN158

But, Commissioner, the company has actually, in its assessment, undertaken a lot of consultation with the employees concerned to actually address their concerns. The other point, Commissioner, is that, prior to the issuing of rosters in March, there was discussion between the dock master informally and a number of drivers in relation to a roster to highlight the changes and discuss the rosters. That was - essentially, there was at least half of the drivers were actually involved in discussions directly with the dock master and those changes were highlighted. And the majority of those employees that had the informal discussions with the dock master indicated that they were accepting of the new roster.

PN159

Commissioner, the other point is that in the international drivers' area the company has only worked fixed rosters since integration, that is, since 2001. That is, in the company's assessment, the most operationally suitable roster which, in its view, should be the test and what is sought, as we understand, by the TWU is that all employees should be rotating through a roster, and it's been explained in meetings with the employees concerned that the rotating roster simply does not work for that particular part of the business.

PN160

There are rotating rosters in other parts of the business which meet the operational requirements, there are also fixed rosters in other parts of the business, but in this particular part of the business there has been no change and there has been fixed rosters for a period of two years. If I might say, Commissioner, in relation - - -

PN161

THE COMMISSIONER: So what's changed then in that area?

PN162

MR McKENZIE: What has changed, we would think, Commissioner, is that the new rosters which were introduced in March have resulted in a reduction in income for the five out of the 22 employees concerned. Now, as Ms Soranson has indicated there are five employees that, if you like, are grandfathered on an arrangement where they will be paid double-time before 7 am. Now, the company looked at those rosters and determined that - essentially, that there would be a change to the rosters to meet operation requirements. There has been the two other employees. One of those five is on workers' compensation so is, in fact, receiving make up pay so he would be out of the equation.

PN163

Two of the employees have indicated their acceptance of the roster arrangements and the two employees concerned have indicated that they don't accept the arrangements, and, essentially, that's the reason why we believe there's a problem. In the roster assessment also those two employees, as we understand, have indicated that they would prefer not to work Sunday and Monday, which, of course, Sunday is a penalty shift. Now, Commissioner, if you compare the other - the two employees - that work - the two employees that receive double-time before 7 am, they, in fact, receive less double-time during the week than the two employees concerned. I can just tender a roster to just demonstrate that, if I may?

PN164

But one of the issues that the TWU claims there is victimisation of the employees concerned and we would say, Commissioner, that that is certainly rejected.

PN165

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, this sounds like equity in a form of beauty being in the eye of the beholder.

PN166

MR McKENZIE: That's correct.

PN167

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I mean, essentially, if there is going to be equity it means that people can't pick and choose what hours they're going to work or which days they're going to work on.

PN168

MR McKENZIE: That's right, yes.

PN169

THE COMMISSIONER: I mean, unless something's changed that I didn't know about.

PN170

MR McKENZIE: Yes. If I could take you to - this is a weekly roster effective 2 April. If I could take you down the left-hand side to Mr Connor and Mr Dugan. They are - - -

PN171

THE COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry, which names again?

PN172

MR McKENZIE: Connor and Mr Dugan. They work in pairs.

PN173

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN174

MR McKENZIE: They work - you will see there the starting times - - -

PN175

THE COMMISSIONER: I will just highlight their name. What, on each occasion that they're referred to?

PN176

MR McKENZIE: Yes, they're working - you go across - - -

PN177

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, they're only referred to once.

PN178

MR McKENZIE: Yes, they go across the page. The week runs from Wednesday through to Tuesday and you will see that the starting times are listed as 6 am, 8 am, 4 am on a Sunday, 5 and so on. In the case of Mr Connor and Mr Dugan, apart from the Sunday there's about four double-time hours outside of that which include - and you will see that they're rostered off on Friday and Saturday. If you go to Mr Frost and Mr Kling you will see the start times are 6, 6, 6, 5 and 6 and rostered off on Sunday.

PN179

THE COMMISSIONER: These are the current rosters?

PN180

MR McKENZIE: This is the current roster, as I understand.

PN181

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN182

MR McKENZIE: You will see, Commissioner, that there is six double-time hours for those two employees in the week, and the starting times do vary between - you can see the other start times of the other employees, for example, Mr Bunker and Mr Jarratt, essentially working, apart from the 4.30 on a Monday, pretty much non-penalty hours. So there is a smaller number of afternoons and they are just probably two-thirds of the way down the page, but in terms of start times, Commissioner, we would say that start times for the international drivers, at least in the morning, are fairly similar across the board.

PN183

The difference is that there is - and a couple of employees are entitled to this double-time penalty and if you compare Mr Frost and Mr Kling and Mr Connor and Mr Dugan there's really no difference in terms of the double-time hours before 7 am including Saturday. The difference is with the Sunday shift. That was one of the issues in the TWU and so we would reject that assertion, Commissioner, in the TWU notification. We have - - -

PN184

THE COMMISSIONER: I will mark that roster as QFCL3.

EXHIBIT #QFCL3 ROSTER

PN185

MR McKENZIE: The second point in the dispute notification from the TWU is that the roster does not provide for rotation of international galley drivers and as a result members will be financially disadvantaged. As I've said, there was never rotation and there was never rotation of the international drivers since integration and we would say that the start times do not vary substantially amongst the drivers at least in the morning shift. The third dot point,which is the advertised positions, have been diverted to relief roster. This is not an issue which has been raised in discussions that the company has had with the delegates in relation to the new rosters.

PN186

Sorry, the work group has not raised it, I'm sorry, I will withdraw that, Commissioner. The delegate has raised it. We would see it appropriate, Commissioner, that there would be further discussion on this particular matter back at the workplace, and, indeed, I have to say, that that would be our position generally that it's appropriate in relation to this particular matter, and it's outlined in our correspondence to Mr Williams, that the TWUs notification to the Commission is pre-emptive. There has yet to be, in our view, proper assessment and discussion by the two employees concerned to go through and look at what alternatives they have in relation to address their concerns.

PN187

It would be appropriate if there would be discussions back at the workplace between management and the employees about this particular issue.

PN188

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, just before you sit down - - -

PN189

MR McKENZIE: Yes.

PN190

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - in terms of what the TWU has noted by way of dot point in their correspondence of 15 April - - -

PN191

MR McKENZIE: Yes.

PN192

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - what's Qantas' position in regard to a roster committee being established in this area?

PN193

MR McKENZIE: If I may say, Commissioner, the committees - roster committees - were established to deal with the labour mix review and there has been roster committees established in most areas, for example, domestic cabin crew, international cabin crew, domestic checkers - - -

PN194

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, what about this one? I know where else they've been.

PN195

MR McKENZIE: Not in this area, Commissioner, and as I understand also not in the hot kitchen at this stage, so there's probably two areas where we haven't set the roster committees yet.

PN196

THE COMMISSIONER: So international drivers and hot kitchen.

PN197

MR McKENZIE: And hot kitchen. Bearing in mind, Commissioner, that the roster committees were to be established to deal with the labour mix review and those discussions, if I may say, also in dispatch and wash in pre-set those meetings of the roster committees are still proceeding. It hasn't been the practice of QFCL to actually involve the roster committee in the schedule change rosters - - -

PN198

THE COMMISSIONER: No.

PN199

MR McKENZIE: - - - and we would say in response to the claim about there hasn't been a roster committee is that we've actually had a lot of consultation, both formal and informal, with the TWU and delegates since the announcement of the schedule change.

PN200

THE COMMISSIONER: But you're not intending, at this stage in any event, to establish a roster committee in international drivers. I mean, that's what I want to know.

PN201

MR McKENZIE: Yes. There was discussed, Commissioner - the process of consultation actually was discussed in the work groups.

PN202

THE COMMISSIONER: So is this the first time this has been raised this claim for a roster committee in international drivers occasioned by this roster change - schedule roster change?

PN203

MR McKENZIE: Yes, there hasn't been any request for roster committees prior to - in other schedule changes. It was discussed, Commissioner - I just don't have it with my notes here - it was discussed that in the work group there was the process of consultations to whether a committee should be formed was actually discussed with the workplace representative on 9 April and it was suggested by - - -

PN204

THE COMMISSIONER: Who's that person?

PN205

MR McKENZIE: Mr Frost, as we understand. That Mr Frost, on 9 April, in a meeting with Mr McDonald and Ms Edwards conceded that the majority of employees in the work group were happy with the current rosters and supported the views of a particular employee who expressed his views and also it was suggested by Mr Frost, as we understand, that the membership of the committee was fluid to allow all drivers an opportunity to attend meetings as practical. So it was the make up of the - make of the representative group, if you like, was actually discussed and it was suggested by Mr Frost, who, as I understand, is also the workplace delegate that it would actually be appropriate to keep it fluid given the fact that international drivers work the range of shifts across the 24 hour operation.

PN206

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Mr Prior?

PN207

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Commissioner. All I'll say in response to that, and we thank the company for the wealth of information, is that we're still - - -

PN208

THE COMMISSIONER: Now, you're not being facetious, are you?

PN209

MR PRIOR: Never. Is that a lot of that basically has been regurgitated from what was in the correspondence of 24 April, which appropriately we've written back on 28 April to say - - -

PN210

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, what is it you think the Commission is going to do about this? Tell me that.

PN211

MR PRIOR: Well, Commissioner, I only have one thing to say and that is that it's not a dispute involving two people. We've indicated there were at least five people that have indicated clearly to us they are unhappy. The purpose of setting up a roster committee was to facilitate consultation between the parties. We are now hearing that - - -

PN212

THE COMMISSIONER: But wouldn't it make more sense to find out why they are unhappy and what it is they think might be able to be done to overcome their unhappiness. We're not going to reinvent the wheel for five people.

PN213

MR PRIOR: We appreciate that, Commissioner. Those people have written to us and we have had discussions with them. And the previous discussions prior to the writing of the correspondence on 15 April were an attempt to resolve those issues.

PN214

THE COMMISSIONER: So where do those queries that have been raised with you now sit in the face of the correspondence of 24 April?

PN215

MR PRIOR: Well, I would best let Toni Soranson address that for you.

PN216

THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. Ms Soranson?

PN217

MS SORANSON: Commissioner, we have great concerns and the people on the roster have concerns about the way the roster is distributed and the way it's created around the flight schedule. It appears that back through integration there was certain people on the roster asked which days off they would like and which shift that they would prefer and those things have been inherited by the new staff coming on to the roster, where the new staff coming on the roster don't simply have a choice of days off and preference to morning or afternoon shift and they are inheriting promises that were made two years ago.

PN218

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

PN219

MS SORANSON: And at the first meeting it was suggested that a roster committee be formed. Yes, the company did indeed say to me that I could have time off work to do the rosters, however, it was stipulated that I couldn't change certain people's days off to create a rotating shift.

PN220

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. So, Mr McKenzie, what can we do about equity then? I mean, if you've got five people complaining - I mean, at the end of the day you've got rosters, you've got people, and people, as I understand it, can move through rosters.

PN221

MR McKENZIE: Yes. Commissioner, if I can say we understand it's two who have raised concerns.

PN222

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, they are saying it's five.

PN223

MR McKENZIE: Yes.

PN224

THE COMMISSIONER: So I don't know.

PN225

MR McKENZIE: Yes.

PN226

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, all right, who are the five? Let's get the names out on the table. Who are the five that say they've got a problem?

PN227

MS SORANSON: We have a letter from five people.

PN228

MS STEVENS: Yes.

PN229

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, what are their names?

PN230

MS STEVENS: There was two that we know that were tossed from the roster that weren't even consulted so - - -

PN231

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I'm not worried about that. What are their names?

PN232

MS SORANSON: Barry Clapham, Rocko Raiti. I'm not sure how to pronounce his name.

PN233

THE COMMISSIONER: Wait on. Clapham.

PN234

MS SORANSON: Rocko Raiti, Leisha Witt.

PN235

THE COMMISSIONER: R. Raiti, R-a-i-t-i.

PN236

MS SORANSON: R-a-i-t-i, yes.

PN237

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN238

MS SORANSON: Leisha Witt.

PN239

THE COMMISSIONER: W-i-t-t?

PN240

MS SORANSON: Yes.

PN241

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN242

MS SORANSON: Kerry Turton.

PN243

THE COMMISSIONER: K. T-u-r-t-o-n?

PN244

MS SORANSON: That's correct.

PN245

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN246

MS SORANSON: Jason Frost.

PN247

THE COMMISSIONER: J. Cross.

PN248

MS SORANSON: And Larry Kling, the 6th.

PN249

THE COMMISSIONER: Who is the other one?

PN250

MS SORANSON: Larry Kling, K-l-i-n-g.

PN251

THE COMMISSIONER: So that's six.

PN252

MS SORANSON: And also, Commissioner, people are - if you would ask the people, "Are you happy with the roster" their response is, "Yes, I am, however, it's not very fair, is it?" That's their response. So whilst you're asking them if - yes, they're in a good line, "But I won't be happy if you give me a bad line". So it's a loaded question.

PN253

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. So you say there are six people who want what?

PN254

MS STEVENS: They want rotational shifts.

PN255

MS SORANSON: Yes. Actually they want the promises that have been made to certain people in the workplace on their shift - that their promises of their days off and that they've got permanent early shift is that that's not adhered to. That everyone - there's not a safe group amongst the group.

PN256

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, Mr McKenzie, I don't know how you can have a roster based on promises. And somebody being treated differently to somebody else for a host of reasons which, you know - - -

PN257

MS SORANSON: That's why I couldn't come up with a rotation roster because I couldn't change people's days off. That was the stipulation behind it.

PN258

THE COMMISSIONER: Is that the case, Mr McKenzie, that certain people can't have their days off changed?

PN259

MR McKENZIE: Commissioner, a number of assertions have been raised by the TWU and the principal issue - - -

PN260

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, just answer that question. Never mind their assertions, answer my question. Is it true that there are people on this roster who can't have their days off changed? I just want a "yes" or "no".

PN261

MR McKENZIE: No. And we told the work group that.

PN262

THE COMMISSIONER: No, that's not true? Well, you know, you blokes have got your wires crossed there, haven't you?

PN263

MS STEVENS: Then why have we had one particular driver for two years.

PN264

THE COMMISSIONER: Look, please, if you're going to say something say it through your representative. I'm simply trying to get the truth on the table here. A lot of assertions are being made. I want to know what the real story is, because if that's not true somebody has got something by the wrong end of it. All right, so - - -

PN265

MS SORANSON: Commissioner - - -

PN266

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - so if that's not the case - - -

PN267

MS SORANSON: Commissioner, I asked the department head, Toni Edwards, about having about having - in the work group - and I said to her in the presence of Paula Stevens and Customer Service Manager, Howard Horton, about a safe group amongst the group and I said, "It looks like you've got a safe group amongst them that can't be changed. Their days off won't change" And Toni Edwards agreed with what I said. She said, "Yes, I'll agree with that".

PN268

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Ms Edwards, is that you sitting there at the table?

PN269

MS EDWARDS: Yes, it is.

PN270

THE COMMISSIONER: I want you to answer this question then. Did you say that?

PN271

MS EDWARDS: I didn't say "yes". I said - - -

PN272

THE COMMISSIONER: Just stand up, please.

PN273

MS EDWARDS: Sorry. If the perception is that they're safe that's a perception. The operational needs of the business are that there are certain days off within that roster. Now, some of them haven't changed because we require a certain amount of people to have their days off.

PN274

THE COMMISSIONER: I don't mind you requiring a certain amount of people but I've got a problem if you require certain people - - -

PN275

MS EDWARDS: No.

PN276

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - with rosters, because rosters can't work that way.

PN277

MS EDWARDS: We have told the work group there is no guarantee of their days off or their roster.

PN278

THE COMMISSIONER: All right, so there is an opportunity then to get some more equity in terms of distribution of the hours and penalty payments amongst this work group. Is that right or not?

PN279

MS EDWARDS: And, in effect, in this schedule change 11 people were changed. I mean, based on operational needs - the roster is designed about the operational needs of the business. That can change every six months.

PN280

THE COMMISSIONER: I don't have a problem with that but I do have a problem with people being able to more or less, you know, blank out those parts of the roster they like and then forget about the parts they don't like, because that always brings problems. What I want, Mr McKenzie, if the QFL - QCFL or whatever you call yourselves, QFCL, to do - you sit down with these people and show them quite clearly that people aren't being favoured under the roster system and that there's not going to be some locked in days off regime for certain people and not others. I mean, that's what needs to be done to fix this.

PN281

MR McKENZIE: Commissioner, we're happy to have a consultation with the staff and actually go through that. That's already been offered by the company previously in relation to the two employees concerned.

PN282

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, listen, you're going to have to involve these people. They are the ones that are getting the complaints.

PN283

MR McKENZIE: The issue is, Commissioner, that two of the employees that are raising the complaints aren't prepared to work anything other than an 8.6 hour roster with four days off.

PN284

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I've got a bit of bad news - I've got some bad news for them. I'll tell you now that they can't - they haven't got the right to lay that claim. Bad luck.

PN285

MS SORANSON: Mr Kling and Mr Frost put forward a rotational based roster saying that, yes, they would only look at rotation with their four days off. At no time, at no time did they mention an 8.6 roster. I work an eight hour day myself and I can have four days off and that's the roster that they are looking at, an eight hour shift.

PN286

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I've got some news for both of you people. Nobody has got the right to say, "I'll only do this, that or the other". And if you don't tell them and you don't tell them I will.

PN287

MS SORANSON: Commissioner - - -

PN288

THE COMMISSIONER: And you had better do something about fixing it yourselves.

PN289

MS SORANSON: Commissioner, can I say - - -

PN290

MR McDONALD: Sorry, if I may, Commissioner.

PN291

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN292

MR McDONALD: Last week we had some meetings with the work group because there's been a lot of discussion in the workplace and people were coming to us saying, "What is the situation in relation to the rosters?" I would like to state that the work group was put on notice that nobody had guaranteed days off. What the department manager has done in the past is that she has tried to accommodate people's needs, because we have a situation where we can either have a whole work group - - -

PN293

THE COMMISSIONER: What, is that where two of them said, "I'll only work X number of days"?

PN294

MR McDONALD: No.

PN295

THE COMMISSIONER: Because I tell you what that's fatal.

PN296

MR McKENZIE: At integration when they established the roster and brought the two work groups together every effort was made to accommodate people's individual needs to make the work group happy. The work group has indicated that what their preference is - that they would like the department manager to continue to meet their individual needs, where it's operationally required, understanding that the majority of people will be happy and at each roster there may be a minority of people who are unhappy.

PN297

The counter proposal that's been put to us is that the union would rather that all employees would be unhappy rather than satisfying individual needs. The company is doing its best to try, as operationally required, to meet people's needs with the operation.

PN298

THE COMMISSIONER: But what are you going to do if they - the whole 22 of them say to Qantas, "Hey, I'm only going to work X. That's - you know, that will keep me happy". I mean, realistically that's not going to work. Is it? I cannot believe that you people would let employees say to you, "I'm only going to do X". Come on, get real.

PN299

MS SORANSON: With all due respect not everyone on the roster was asked what their preference was so you could accommodate them.

PN300

MR PRIOR: Commissioner, I'd just like to interject just to make one brief comment: all we're seeking is equality of access to the roster. If it's set or rotating that may well be management's prerogative, but what we want to ensure is that people have equal access to the roster whatever it is.

PN301

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Look, I have no problem with the needs of the business concept; because the needs of the business at the end of the day is what keeps you people in a job. And you've got to - in some ways, you've got to accommodate that. But what I won't stand for is somebody saying, "I'll only do X"; because if that doesn't make another group of people unhappy, I don't know what is guaranteed to do it better than that; because the whole 22 may as well say to you, "We'll only do X." "Oh, all right, we'll make you happy. Doesn't matter." Come on.

PN302

MS STEVENS: I think there's a lack of understanding, sir, on our part is what we're not understanding is prior to integration, we had rotating rosters in the international drivers for 18 years that I'm aware of prior to that and they worked. We're not saying it's the be all and end all. What we are saying is though that you're going to have someone who is going to work the same amount of days; they're going to earn the same money - - -

PN303

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, Ms Stevens, this has been going on since 2001.

PN304

MS STEVENS: I couldn't agree with you more, sir, believe me.

PN305

THE COMMISSIONER: You know, where have you been the last two years if it's a big problem now?

PN306

MS STEVENS: If the Commissioner would like to recall, in the beginning when this roster was brought forward when Ms Edwards took over the department, her statement was that she wanted the same drivers, same planes and that was for customer service. You said to us at that time, "You can't complain about a roster without doing it"; we agreed. It's now two years down - since then also we've had six or seven people that have joined the queue and have said, "This isn't right. This isn't fair."

PN307

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, listen, I think back at the ranch is the place to go and fix this and you people had better go and do it. Now, I think, you know, the genie is out of the bottle now that people don't have the right to say what suits them and what doesn't. The needs of the business have to be met, but by the same token some equity has to be applied through a roster through a group of people. And it's obvious that not everybody will be happy, but at the end of the day that's what they call equity. If that's what you want, I'm happy to see that that's what actually occurs. Now, does anybody have any problems with what I'm suggesting?

PN308

MS STEVENS: I suppose the biggest problem from our point of view, Commissioner, is the simple fact that Toni has been part of two previous meetings. And maybe David would like to pass on the minutes for those meetings where, you know, two to three weeks now they've had several meetings where we wanted to have a roster committee established. And those same dot points were put down - - -

PN309

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, can I say this?

PN310

MS STEVENS: - - - where it's just not happening.

PN311

THE COMMISSIONER: There's no certainty there will be a roster committee established out of this. What we are going to do though is see that people don't simply say, "I'm only going to work X." You want equity. You don't need a roster committee to get equity. If they can't come up with an appropriate roster, then you come back and see me and then I'll get involved. But I've got to give you a chance to do it first, but I think now it's all on the table. Everybody understands now what the situation is, you know; there's no more brick wall treatment. This has got to be fixed by you people not by me; because you might not like it if I get involved to fix it, I'll tell you now. So, Mr Prior, where does that leave your notification?

PN312

MR PRIOR: Well, Commissioner, in terms of what we've just heard, I would suggest that the notification would sit in abeyance whilst the parties return to the workplace to deal with these issues. And we will give you a report back based on the outcome of that.

PN313

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, don't forget 4 September is fast approaching - - -

PN314

MR PRIOR: Indeed, Commissioner.

PN315

THE COMMISSIONER: - - - and I hope to have this thing wound up before then.

PN316

MR PRIOR: Well, if it would be appropriate, would it be appropriate to set a date for report back in perhaps a month's - - -

PN317

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I think so. I think - - -

PN318

MR PRIOR: - - - time to give the parties a chance to progress those discussions?

PN319

THE COMMISSIONER: Would a month be a suitable period of time for the parties to report back to the Commission about what they've done about the issues raised today? Thursday, 29 May at 11 am. Mr McKenzie, you had better consult your diary. I seem to be working to your diary lately not mine. Mr Prior, does that date give you a problem?

PN320

MR PRIOR: That suits. Thank you, Commissioner.

PN321

MR McKENZIE: 29 May is suitable with me. I'll just check with my colleagues, Commissioner. That is suitable.

PN322

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay.

PN323

MR McKENZIE: Commissioner, if I may, I didn't say in my opening submissions that the company had proposed a communication process, which will encompass things like looking at attempting to accommodate preferences for days off and shift patterns, changes can be communicated in advance, roster options and flight schedules are provided to staff for implementation with new rosters; those types of things. That has been communicated to the employees already and we can actually discuss the process further.

PN324

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that comes out of the 17 March proceeding, does it?

PN325

MR PRIOR: No, that comes out of the meetings - - -

PN326

MR McKENZIE: No, that would be - that was as a result of the discussions that had been had at the - - -

PN327

THE COMMISSIONER: So it's something that's evolved?

PN328

MR McKENZIE: - - - workplace; that's correct.

PN329

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

PN330

MR McKENZIE: And that was, as I understand, following a meeting on 23 April. So those things the company has - those types of things in terms of consultation and communication - - -

PN331

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, the more communication the better.

PN332

MR McKENZIE: - - - the company has previously agreed to.

PN333

THE COMMISSIONER: I mean, I just think that has some impact.

PN334

MR McKENZIE: Yes.

PN335

MS STEVENS: Can I just say, Commissioner, that I don't want to see anybody misled especially you; but I might ask James McDonald when was the last time that the snack room had a roster committee meeting? Yes. Please don't mislead him into thinking that there's this great communication pattern when that's not happening and you know it's not.

PN336

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, you know, look that's all left field stuff. These proceedings aren't where - this isn't like K Mart where you walk in and just pluck things off the shelf, you know. You come here in a formalised way and raise things properly not ad hoc like that from the bar table, please. If you want something raised about those issues, do it at the workplace. If that doesn't happen, tell Mr Prior then ultimately he'll talk to Qantas; and if it doesn't happen, then well you'll have to talk to me. All right?

PN337

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Commissioner. Can I just say that on the basis of the outline that you gave to the parties to take the issues as discussed today back to the workplace, we will report back to you the outcome of progress or otherwise that we've got in that interim period?

PN338

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, how do the parties intend to actually go about addressing the issues that were raised today? Mr McKenzie, what are you going to put in place out there to actually address this?

PN339

MR McKENZIE: I've partly covered it, Commissioner: if I may, the company - - -

PN340

THE COMMISSIONER: This has to be something specific in the international drivers' area.

PN341

MR McKENZIE: Well, bearing in mind what has been offered is that there will be time off the job for the two individuals concerned and the delegate to have a look at alternatives. In other words, perhaps convincing the company why a rotating roster would actually work better and more suit the operations than a current fixed roster.

PN342

THE COMMISSIONER: So who are we talking about there?

PN343

MR McKENZIE: We're talking about the two individuals with the complaints which are Mr Kling and Mr Frost.

PN344

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, wait on; I've got six people named here not two.

PN345

MR McKENZIE: The offer was made to the employees and to - as I've indicated previously, the advice has only come from the two employees that I've named that they have an issue.

PN346

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, who are the two employees that have indicated to Qantas they'll only work certain days?

PN347

MR McKENZIE: Mr Frost and Mr Kling.

PN348

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, what are they going to be told?

PN349

MR McKENZIE: Well, they will be told precisely what you've said and look at - again ask the - reconsider the alternative which approves they've been put which would, we say, in at least two of those instances would increase their income which are rotating rosters but outside the international drivers' area - - -

PN350

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, they need to understand that they don't have the right to tell you that they're only going to work a certain roster; that's what I want them to be told.

PN351

MR McKENZIE: Yes.

PN352

THE COMMISSIONER: You should tell them that; that should be the precursor to what you suggest then might be the alternatives.

PN353

MR McKENZIE: Yes. We have proposed two - at least two alternatives which would in our assessment increase their income through rotating rosters. We would also discuss with them - get them to look at and assess and try and convince the company as to whether a rotating roster is more operationally suitable and we would - - -

PN354

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I just see the problem as being wider though than two people. I mean you keep rejecting that, but I've had six names raised here today. They have to be spoken to.

PN355

MS STEVENS: Well, I've got Mr Frost here and he certainly didn't - - -

PN356

MR McKENZIE: Commissioner, if I may, the other names that have been provided: the company has gone to great effort to talk to all of the representatives of the work group. Those employees have advised us that, yes, they are interested in discussing roster alternatives. However, they are satisfied with their current roster arrangements. Two of the employees - and I refer to Mr Roki and Mr Clapham - have advised us that they had only expressed dissatisfaction with their roster due to information that they received that rotating rosters were wanted by all AM people and that that had already agreed to with the company. They said once they understood that that was not the case, that they no longer had a grievance in relation to this matter.

PN357

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that seems to be like someone has been giving out some misinformation: so there's a need for some firm clear information to come out which everybody - well, and obviously the union needs to sign off on the information that is going out otherwise you will have some confusion. All right. Does that satisfy you on notification, Mr Prior?

PN358

MR PRIOR: Yes, Commissioner, on the basis that we intend to go back to the workplace with a copy of the transcript on the points that were agreed to be discussed between the parties and try and take the matter forward.

PN359

THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Well, on that basis, then, the Commission will adjourn the proceedings and the parties are to report back to the Commission at 11 am on 29 May of this year. On that basis, I'll adjourn the proceedings.

ADJOURNED UNTIL THURSDAY, 29 MAY 2003 [3.45pm]

INDEX

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #TWU1 LETTER FROM MR WILLIAMS DATED 28/04/2003 IN RESPONSE TO LETTER FROM QFCL TO MR WILLIAMS DATED 24/04/2003 PN140
EXHIBIT #QFCL1 MEMORANDUM DATED 17/04/2003 PN140
EXHIBIT #QFCL2 MEMORANDUM DATED 24/04/2003 PN140
EXHIBIT #QFCL3 ROSTER PN185