C2002/1304, Transcript of Proceedings [2003] AIRCTrans 1796 (16 May 2003)

AUSCRIPT PTY LTD
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS


O/N VT2477

AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL

RELATIONS COMMISSION

DEPUTY PRESIDENT IVES

C2002/1304

VICTORIAN INDEPENDENT SCHOOLS -
SCHOOL ASSISTANTS - AWARD 1998

Application under section 113 of the Act
by the Independent Education Union of
Australia to vary the above award re
wages and conditions

MELBOURNE

10.00 AM, THURSDAY, 1 MAY 2003

Continued from 19.3.03

PN55

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, good morning. No change to the appearances I note. This matter was called on only for a report back so I don't believe that it matters who goes first. Perhaps Mr Odgers?

PN56

MR ODGERS: Your Honour, this matter has been afoot for some time so it is with pleasure that I can say an extensive series of meetings and exchange of correspondence between the parties has led to some considerable progress in negotiations.

PN57

But I would also like to say that the matter in itself is quite complex. The variation originally proposed by my organisation was one which had a two fold effect. It sought to improve wages and conditions by revising the safety net as part of what would be a special case. And your Honour has heard me refer on a number of occasions to the need - possible need, to refer aspects of this matter to a Full Bench - - -

PN58

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN59

MR ODGERS: - - - for those who were covered by the award at the time the variation was made. It also sought to include new rates of pay and conditions for clerical and administrative employees in independent schools in Victoria who have been award free for some time for reasons that I shall not dwell on here.

PN60

The parties have agreed that they have a common aim to promulgate by way of award coverage terms and conditions of employment as part of a minimum safety net for clerical and administrative employees, as a priority but have agreed, as a result of those discussions that it would be - those terms and conditions would be better placed - since there are significant differences between them and the award that was sought to be varied in another award.

PN61

So I can report back today that the current discussions on behalf of the AISV, on behalf of pretty all independent schools, and my organisation as the application in this matter, are concentrating on the form of the award that will cover clerical and administrative employees. And in addition to that have been having discussions from time to time about changes, if any, to the award that has sought to be varied.

PN62

If an application is made - the first application that is likely to be made would be an application to make a new award but nevertheless it falls under the heading of this matter as it will part settle, in a way, the application to vary.

PN63

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN64

MR ODGERS: I want to report, very briefly, on the major issues that have seen these discussions - intensive discussions, span more than 12 months because they are quite significant.

PN65

On the last occasion I reported back I think I explained very briefly that the real difficulty in making awards for this group of workers is that they don't work in an ordinary pattern. They don't work for 48 weeks in a year and then take - have four weeks annual leave. So that the major period of time has been spent discussing the intersection between pay and leave for these employees.

PN66

And the particular difficulty is that not only do they not work in that 48 weeks on, four weeks off pattern, they don't work in a series of other absolutely regular patterns either and in fact there is in this particular sector, there is an enormous amount of difference, depending on the task that one performs and the amount of weeks the employer requires you.

PN67

So you might be an employee who was required for 48 weeks of the year but you might be an employee who is required to work only in term time because an essential part of your role might relate to your interaction in some way with students or with parents.

PN68

We have been trying to look at a model that would provide a fair wages and leave outcome for all employees, irrespective of their employers requirements in terms attendance time. One that will provide both compensation for the fact that they may be working almost a seasonal model, to use a readily intelligible expression and one that would be fair.

PN69

Now, of course the Commission has looked at this particular problem itself many times, both in the context of our industry and other industries and one obvious solution might be to provide a standard down clause in the award so that the employee would simply be paid when they were working and stood down when they were not working.

PN70

By way of alternative, some of the awards in Victoria provide that there is a 48 over 52 model. In other words pretty well irrespective of the amount of time the employer requires you if you are a full time employee, take all the school holidays, you get paid 48 over 52. At the moment we have decided to look at a third model that we have been working hard on that would provide a sliding scale, depending on the number of weeks that you were actually at work to provide compensation by the initial - by way of the initial salary in the classification structure enabling persons who are at the bottom of the scale to still receive a liveable minimum wage.

PN71

In other words, persons who would not be required all the time would still receive a good and worthwhile emolument. That's where we are at the moment. We are due to meet again on the - on 12 May, to discuss this proposal. Not a lot separates the parties in respect of that particular element of the claim. My organisation believes that the other issues that have been under discussion such as the way the classification structure will operate and the - the basic terms and conditions - allowable terms and conditions that would appear in the award, are all matters that have either been resolved or are capable of resolution through sensible negotiation between the parties.

PN72

We don't believe, at this time, it is yet necessary to avail ourselves of the assistance of the Commission although in the event that we are not able to agree on anything I would indicate that we will certainly be coming here to seek assistance by way of conciliation before we - before we looked at - at any proceedings in respect of arbitration.

PN73

We are hoping to finalise this new award, for what is a very big group of employees in terms of award free employees in Victoria - one of the biggest groups of employees remaining. Inside, from my organisation's point of view the next eight to 10 weeks - it will have taken a long time but we feel it will be worthwhile if we are able to do that, particularly - - -

PN74

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What sort of numbers are we talking about, Mr Odgers?

PN75

MR ODGERS: I think Ms Knopp will probably be better placed than - than I would be in that respect but I can say that - that were are certainly talking in the thousands from our perspective - in the low thousands.

PN76

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you.

PN77

MR ODGERS: I think that's all I have to say about this, at this stage, your Honour. In summary we are heartened that this year in particular we have been able to make progress. We understand that the Commission's had the file for a long time.

PN78

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN79

MR ODGERS: And that the Commission is anxious to see all matters before it progressed as speedily as is possible, consistent with its responsibilities under the Act, but we would urge the Commission that the parties are doing their best to try and reach agreement on this matter.

PN80

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I am satisfied that this is the case, Mr Odgers. Mr Odgers, what do you see as the progress of matters from this point?

PN81

MR ODGERS: We would hope to bring before the Commission either an agreed award for clerical and administrative employees or an award that was part agreed inside the next eight to 12 weeks. The parties have also been - as a result of discussing employees who were award free are very close to finalising an award for Kindergarten Teachers.

PN82

Now that didn't form part of the application, but it has arisen from the discussions and I am hopeful that we would be able to make an application for an award in respect of that group of employees in an even shorter time frame. As far as the re-setting of wages and the classification structure for school assistants who are currently covered by an award is concerned, I feel that would be much later in the year.

PN83

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It would seem though that the original application which is an application to vary under section 113 is now in the context of what has happened - a redundant application, is that - - -

PN84

MR ODGERS: I think the answer to that, your Honour, is "no", because the - there is an element to that proposal that would - that original application and the - that an order will never be sought in the form of the application. I can say that definitively, but it may be that an order might be sought at some stage in the form of that application with simply everything that relates to clerical and administrative employees cut out of it. And all those things that relate to library assistants and librarians and - and technology aids and persons already covered by the award, extent. It is for that - that's the only reason why the application hasn't been withdrawn.

PN85

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, so it would be your submission that the file should remain open at this point in time.

PN86

MR ODGERS: That is - that is my submission, your Honour, certainly.

PN87

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, thanks, Mr Odgers. Ms Knopp.

PN88

MS KNOPP: Your Honour, I probably have very little to say at this particular point as Mr Odgers has given quite a fair summary of what we have at the moment. We are hopeful that we will finalise those outstanding matters, namely the model of employment in terms of how that is going to work across that group of employees.

PN89

I would estimate there is probably 1800 to 2200 of these employees in the sector at least. We also have some other issues at the moment. Obviously as part of all of that there is the descriptions that are not quite finalised. The rates of pay are not quite finalised. And there is a couple of other outstanding matters as well.

PN90

We are hopeful that we will be able to resolve those and that we will not need to seek the assistance of the Commission, but we will do so if that becomes necessary. Just in terms of the time line. Both organisations I think have actually still got to go out and consult more fully and finally with members so that has to be built into the time line as well and if we are able to agree reasonably soon then possibly eight to 12 weeks is a reasonable - reasonable situation, but this sector is always limited by the factor that every nine to 10 weeks you have school holidays and people aren't available so it's sometimes a difficult sector to work within and finalise things within agreed time lines.

PN91

In terms of the application, that's a matter for the union. We are interested in finalising the award and leave the application process to the union at this point.

PN92

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: But you are satisifed, Ms Knopp, that the application remain alive at this point in time?

PN93

MS KNOPP: Yes, in our view it is a live application. We are working on one aspect of it.

PN94

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes.

PN95

MS KNOPP: And when we have dealt with that aspect we are quite happy to turn to the remaining proposal within that application which is to vary the school assistants' award.

PN96

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right.

PN97

MS KNOPP: Thank you.

PN98

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Ms Knopp. Look, for my part I will keep the file open. I think it is probably appropriate at this point in time and rather than reports back which are obviously not something that - that don't have their effect in terms of taking away from other tasks, it might be better if I just leave the file open and have my Chambers contact perhaps you, Mr Odgers, in a period of perhaps eight weeks to see where you are at, at that point in time with the file. Would that be a reasonable?

PN99

MR ODGERS: Yes, I think that would be an appropriate course, your Honour.

PN100

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, all right. Well, I will do that and we can see what happens from that point in time. Good. Thank you very much for coming, both of you.

PN101

MR ODGERS: Thank you.

PN102

MS KNOPP: Thank you.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [10.12am]